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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MEETING 2014-07-15 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING HELD JULY 15, 2014 A Regular Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, July 15, 2014. MEMBERS PRESENT: Matthew Henzi, Chairman Sam Caramagno, Secretary Robert Bowling Craig Pastor Jason Rhines Robert Sills MEMBERS ABSENT: None OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney Steve Banko, City Inspector Patricia C. Burklow, CER-8225 The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Six (6) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished . The Secretary then read the Agenda to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 11 people present in the audience. (7:05) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 64 July 15, 2014 APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-06-30: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Patrick Sayn, 38070 Jamison, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a 6-foot tall privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in the fence being within the side yard and excess fence height. Privacy fences must not extend beyond the rear line of the home toward the street. Fence Height Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Jamison (38070) between Blue Skies and Houghton, Lot No. 073-02-0223-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A,4,bii, and 15.44.090B, “Residential District Regulations.” Henzi: Mr. Banko, do you have anything to add to this case? Banko: I have nothing to add at this time, sir. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the petitioner please come to the table? Good evening. Sayn: Good evening. Thank you for your time tonight. My name is Patrick Sayn. I live at 38070 Jamison, Livonia, Michigan, 48154. Henzi: Go ahead and tell us about the privacy fence you want to construct. Sayn: The privacy fence--the objectives of putting up the fence is one, to create more space in the backyard. The current backyard is very--the fenced in area is very small. Two, is a privacy concern living on a corner lot. There is actually a bathroom window on the west side of the house between the house and the garage. Yes, the bathroom window is frosted but you can definitely see a silhouette through there if you are showering at night or in the dark time. So that’s the main privacy concern. Also, less concerns, one, is hopefully a little bit of noise reduction. And those are the major objectives of why I want to put up a fence. Henzi: Can you say again where the bathroom window is? Sayn: If you are looking at the print here it is actually right by the dimension that is fifteen by two--15.2 actually. Right across from where it says remove. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 64 July 15, 2014 Henzi: Okay. Did you go to your neighbors and ask if they had any objections? Sayn: Yes, I’ve talked to several of my neighbors and I had the neighbors--the two--the two neighbors right alongside of me I had them sign the acknowledgment papers. Henzi: And then there is a brochure in the back. Sayn: Yes. Henzi: It looks like a white vinyl fence, is that the exact model that you want to construct? Sayn: It will be the almond color in the middle to match the vinyl siding on the house. But yes it will be the Rockport style on the bottom of the brochure. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the petitioner? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Going through your neighborhood I didn’t see any--I saw similar fences like this that you want to construct but they are all chain link. I thought I read somewhere that you said that there are other properties like this that have the privacy-- Sayn: Yes. Pastor: Can you tell me where that was? Sayn: I am kind of new to the area so I don’t remember the exact streets, I should have brought that information I apologize. There is at least two other houses with six foot privacy fences on the side lot in that area. Pastor: Same situation? Sayn: They are closer to Newburgh Road, I am not sure the actual street addresses though. Pastor: Same situation, the lot? Sayn: Yes. Pastor: House built, the garage built the same way? Sayn: Yes. Pastor: Because I don’t remember seeing that. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Sir, the fence coming all the way to the front of the home which would be the south side of your home. Why does it have to come--why does it need to come so far forward? Explain that to me. Sayn: This--the main reason is just space and it kind of just logically makes sense from a visual aspect if you are looking at the fence from a side yard so it is not cutting the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 64 July 15, 2014 house off in half. Otherwise, it would be coming to the halfway point of the house. Because the existing fence does actually carry past the back of the house right now. So the back of the house, the very north side of the house the current fence already comes past there. So instead of just coming up to the middle of the house and the middle of the wall, I thought it made more sense to go up to the side door so it actually stops right before the side door. Caramagno: The reason I asked that is typically when we--at least when I’m looking at a fence like this--when they are coming to the front of the house there is normally a window or a door or something up in the front half of the home that’s--that’s--that you have some intent to protect or keep people out. Your first window doesn’t even start until that 15.2 marker, is that right? Sayn: Um-- Caramagno: Other than that it is a brick wall over here? Sayn: There’s a--where it says P, there is actually a patio there right between the 24 foot dimension and the 28 and a ½ that is actually a side door. Caramagno: Where I don’t see the P? Sayn: But that is actually on the outside of the fence. Caramagno: I’m looking at the 19.7, so we are talking about the same thing. That’s all brick wall there isn’t it? Sayn: The south corner of that 19--19.7 dimension-- Caramagno: Yep. Sayn: --that’s actually a side door. Caramagno: Where the 12.3 is? Sayn: There’s a P there, I’m not sure what--the P might stand for patio Caramagno: That’s like a front door for your home right? Sayn: That’s a side door, the front door is actually right by the middle of the front of the house. Caramagno: Okay. But the fence doesn’t protect that door from anything? Sayn: No, it doesn’t. Caramagno: Okay. So you want this to come forward to the sidewalk there because--to extend your fenced in yard is that it? Sayn: Yes--yes. Caramagno: Okay, thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Do you have a dog or anything that you are trying to keep-- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 64 July 15, 2014 Sayn: Yes, we have two dogs. Pastor: What type of dogs are they? Sayn: One is a--it is kind of like an American Foxhound mix and the other is a Pomeranian Chihuahua mix. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: How close to the sidewalk is the fence going to be? Not where the police department has recommended the 45° angle but the rest of the fence? How close is that going to be? Sayn: It will be--I believe it is a foot off the sidewalk is the code. Banko: That is correct. Sills: About a foot off yes. Rhines: But that’s the code, but then the code would also only allow a chain link--a chain link fence five foot high right there. If it is one foot from the sidewalk--I mean six foot high privacy fences are not allowed at all on that--that close--on the side yard at all. So, I guess my concern is did all the neighbors--were all the neighbors in support? Sayn: Yes, I didn’t have any--anybody-- Sills: He’s got a couple letters that-- Sayn: The main reason for the six foot fence again is the bathroom window on the side of the house to try to get some privacy on that. Rhines: We had a--we had a similar case not too long ago and the neighbors were all-- had all decided that--you know--a six foot tall privacy fence right out to the sidewalk changed the whole look of the neighborhood. They couldn’t look from to their house--you know--it blocked the view they were used to having for a long time. Sayn: Sure. Rhines: And it was another new--it was another new member--a new resident to that-- Sayn: Sure. Rhines: --in that particular neighborhood. Sayn: I understand. Rhines: And I remember there was probably--I don’t know at least ten of the neighbors that were in there and they each spoke for about five minutes in objection in the way that it changed their view out their-- Sayn: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 64 July 15, 2014 Rhines: --out their house. Would--would you consider moving it further away from the sidewalk? Sayn: If there was a neighbor that would object to it than absolutely. I mean I think everyone received letters and if they are here they have an opportunity to speak right? Rhines: I know that for me personally if it was--you know--it if was further away from the sidewalk I wouldn’t have a problem at all. I think it makes sense the way you are doing it. It would be a nice pathway from the backyard to the side yard, a place for the dogs to run. I also drove through the neighborhood and I must have missed those two that are already that way. But everyone that I saw that was on a corner house it was a chain link fence. And--you know--so--even though it is there you have to almost look to see it--you know--it kind of-- Sayn: Right. Rhines: --it--you don’t see it--it doesn’t stand out-- Sayn: Yeah, it’s transparent. Rhines: And it is interesting on the other case the people had gone and built fence first and then they must have had an objection against them or something so they had to come here for a variance. Sayn: Sure. Rhines: And once it was up that’s when all the neighbors--all the neighbors there too had said it would be okay, but as soon as it was put up--you know like I said there was like ten people in here objecting because it changed the whole look of the neighborhood. Sayn: Right. Rhines: And you said you are new in the neighborhood. Sayn: Well in this case, I mean the letter went out I think to all the properties within 300 feet. Rhines: Yep. Sayn: So I’m going through this variance and not just putting it up like it sounds like that person did-- Rhines: Yeah. Sayn: --they would obviously have the ability to come in and object to it so if anyone is here. Rhines: It was the same thing though, nobody objected to it beforehand because they just didn’t--you know--everybody is busy in their lives and they didn’t realize it and as soon as the fence was up--you know--they--everybody was extremely upset-- Sayn: I’m sorry I thought originally you said-- Rhines: --and they wanted them to take it down. Sayn: --they didn’t apply for the variance, they just put it up. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 64 July 15, 2014 Rhines: Yeah, it was--it was--it was a mistake made. But I guess my concern for you would be--you know--putting that up and then having the neighbors be upset after you’ve already spent the money and we’ve already granted the variance. So-- Sayn: Sure. Rhines: --I guess the only question in all that is would you consider moving it further away from the sidewalk? I know it would be easier for me to support it if you did. If there was any letter of--if there were any letters of objection or any complaints of any of the neighbors, I would definitely have to vote this down because I would understand--I would understand the fact that you have no objections also creates a position--you know--a situation where it’s--you know--it’s in your favor. But I still think it is in the best interest to move it further away from the sidewalk so your neighbors could still have a view. Just because you are new to the neighborhood and you want to get along with them, but-- Sayn: Yes, absolutely-- Rhines: I don’t have any more-- Sayn: --I understand. Rhines: --questions right now though. Sayn: What kind of distance are you talking? I mean how much further would you consider moving it in? Rhines: If it was me, I would do it ten feet. Sayn: Ten feet from the sidewalk? Rhines: Ten feet from the fence and that doesn’t change the view of the neighborhood that much. And I definitely could--you know--I definitely would be in support of that if you did that. But I don’t have any more questions at this time. Henzi: Any other questions? Is there anyone in the audience that wants to speak for or against the project if so, come on up to the table. I don’t see anyone coming forward. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: We’ve got an approval from Mike George at 38009 Howell, we’ve got an approval from Frank Kummer at 38113 Jamison, an approval from Kathy Zichichi at 14929 Houghton. Henzi: Mr. Sayn, anything else you want to say in closing? Sayn: No, thank you. Henzi: Okay, I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Sills. Sills: I think this is pretty well thought out and he did have the Police Department come out and make their recommendations of moving that fence ten foot by 45 degree angle so they can get line of sight for cars backing out of the garage or something like that. I think I could support this. I think it was well done and as far as the neighbors are concerned they would have to look through the house to have any problem with this. He City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 64 July 15, 2014 has an awful lot of support--neighborhood support letter wise and I think I could support it. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: I’m interested in hearing the comments of the other Zoning Board members. You know my initial thought is if you own the house, you pay taxes on it, within reason you should be able to do whatever you want to do. I’m assuming if we approve this you will go ahead and do it as proposed right here instead of cut back the ten feet--you know--I just remember--you know--I left that Zoning Board meeting the other night and I remember those people had infuriated all their neighbors. It changed the look of the neighborhood too much for those neighbors. So, I guess I’m going--you know--as it is right I’m still making a final decision, but that’s all I got. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, the question I asked earlier what does that--what does that front 19 or 20 feet protect there, it protects a block wall--a brick wall. I don’t see what value that adds coming all the way to the front of this house. I could see something 19 feet--19 and ½ feet back but I don’t understand the front other than boxing in your yard, I don’t understand why you need to come forward so far and really change the look of this street dramatically. As I also didn’t see many fences in the area. The rest of it looks good to me just coming too far forward in my mind. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yes, I don’t think I can support this. I--the way this is drawn I think people--it’s going to look like a stockade fence--boxed in property, way up against the sidewalk almost. I just--I’m--I think it’s going to change the neighborhood significantly and I just cannot support the way it is drawn. I’m not a big proponent of side yard fences to begin with so yeah I won’t be supporting this as it’s presented. Henzi: Mr. Bowling. Bowling: I think I agree with Mr. Caramagno if we brought that fence back a little bit from the front of the property it would be more appealing. And also the question I guess I would have as well and I probably should have posed during the public comments what the neighbors across the street from Houghton if they’re--are the neighbors just directly adjacent to the house questioned on approval for the fence or denial on the privacy fencing? Sayn: My understanding that any property that is within 300 feet. Only the properties adjacent needed the letter of acknowledgment. Bowling: Okay. Sayn: But what he was reading the comments, those were mailed in from people within 300 feet of the property-- Bowling: Okay. Sayn: --is my understanding. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 64 July 15, 2014 Bowling: I guess I mean for the initial process that may be a question for Steve in terms for us to grant the privacy fencing rules, is it just the properties immediately adjacent? Banko: Well, when they file for the appeal a notice will go out to anybody within 300 feet- - Bowling: No, that part I understand. What I’m saying is just the initial fence if you are going to put a privacy fence of any sort is it just the neighbors-- Fisher: It’s just the adjoining neighbors. Banko: Yes, if was just where the fence would be permitted it would be the adjacent neighbor that would sign off. And actually it appears that you’re attempting to put a privacy fence on the--in the rear yard also? Sayn: Correct. Banko: Which he has to sign off with his neighbors on that. And--can I make one more- - Henzi: Sure. Banko: Add one more. I know what Jason was talking about I was at that meeting and I believe that was over on Hubbard and Meadowlark I think it is. And they had put that fence up, they had strapped it to the existing cyclone fence and that’s basically what infuriated all the neighbors around there as I recall. Henzi: Okay. Banko: After that that gentleman took that fence down. Henzi: Thank you. Mr. Bowling did you--are you good? Bowling: I’m kind of still making the final decision but I think it makes sense to pull it back away from the sidewalk and from the front part of the yard. Henzi: Okay. As to that form that you are talking about, that is something that somebody just goes into the ZBA office and they take it. Mr. Sayn came in, gets a copy and then goes to the neighbor anybody whose yard will abut his where he is going to put the fence up and then they talk about it. Do you want the good side facing you or not. Bowling: Correct. Henzi: So it is my turn. I certainly can understand the need for a privacy fence. Houghton in my opinion is one of the main thoroughfares into this Castle Garden sub. It is a complicated sub, good luck finding your way out if you don’t know that area but that is one of the ways in. And I like to give these privacy fences because he’s--this property is the only one where everybody’s coming in and out to get into the sub and then they sort of branch off at Jamison if they are going that far south. And the way that your property is lined up everybody is going to be looking into the side yard--into the back yard. But like Mr. Caramagno and Mr. Bowling I agree that you’ve brought it so far up. And you didn’t say that for example I need to cover up my--you know a patio door or a bathroom. In fact, all that was in the back and so they are not looking into anything. I didn’t hear anything like kids are walking to Randolph and they are going to cut through my yard and City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 64 July 15, 2014 therefore I need to bring it all the way up. So I think it would be more appropriate to bring it farther back. I don’t know how far maybe not all the way to the back or to the rear of the house but maybe right at that 12.3 mark, something like that. If we brought it further north I would have no problem granting the variance. So having said all that, the floor is open for a motion. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Upon Motion by Pastor supported by Caramagno, it was: RESOLVED:APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-06-30: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Patrick Sayn, 38070 Jamison, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a 6-foot tall privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in the fence being within the side yard and excess fence height. Privacy fences must not extend beyond the rear line of the home toward the street. Fence Height Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Jamison (38070) between Blue Skies and Houghton, Lot No. 073-02-0223-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A,4,bii, and be tabled so the Petitioner can take into 15.44.090B, “Residential District Regulations,” account the Board’s comments and return with a revised plan. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Caramagno, Rhines, Sills, Bowling, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: None Henzi: So this has been tabled, it is actually sort of a benefit for you, you don’t have to pay to get rescheduled you just call Marilyn in the ZBA office. The next available meeting th is August 12. You can bring back the same plan, you can change it, you can do whatever you want. What we normally tell people is to just take everything into consideration. And along the lines of my comments, if you think that I was wrong and that there is something City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 64 July 15, 2014 further south that you want covered up, then you tell us why and make that part of your plan. Sayn: My only comment is this is already--I would rather us discuss this and come up nd with a plan now if possible I was supposed to have a meeting on June 2 and the paperwork has been lost in the City. There has been a lot of mistakes on the City side of this and it has already been delayed two months. So, is there any way we can come up with a plan together tonight and you guys are going to be my best advisors instead of me going home and come up with a plan, bring it in here and get rejected again. Does that make any sense? Henzi: Well, I mean, it’s been tabled but look in my opinion if you want to horse trade and get this over with I’m for that. So I don’t know if there is consensus so let’s take five seconds. That means anyone that is willing to support this what if he brings this farther to the north? What do you suggest? Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: I’ve got to--I think getting it away from the sidewalk is more important than bringing it further north for me because people--when people walk up and down the sidewalk which is some of the comments if I remember correctly at that last meeting in question--it just changes the feel. You know you are just brushing up against the fence. If you are walking your dogs--it just--it changes the feel so for me getting it closer to the house kind of makes it blend into the house-- Sayn: Sure. Rhines: --so it doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb. I think that is more important. Plus it’s just physics the closer you get to the house the more coverage you will have for your windows. Sayn: Right. Rhines: Because the further away it is, the closer somebody can be and see over it. So, going ten feet closer to the house would work for me and that way would give more protection on the visibility. And I don’t think it will look bad coming from that south corner personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with that on my side. Okay. Henzi: Mr. Sills, do you have any opinion? Sills: No, I don’t have an opinion. I voiced my opinion to start with. I didn’t think there was anything wrong with the layout to begin with so. Henzi: All right, then to Mr. Bowling and Caramagno, I mean the three of us are kind of at a point where we would like to see it move further north. What do you think? Caramagno: That’s--like I say, that--to move up to that corner--the 12.3 corner I would be all right with that. And if you brought it off the sidewalk some it would get my approval immediately. Bowling: I’d agree in both directions a short distance. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 64 July 15, 2014 Rhines: Five feet in both directions, Mr. Chair? Pastor: Is somebody going to draw this so we actually know what we are looking at? Henzi: What do you mean five feet? Rhines: Five feet further away from the sidewalk which would give you six feet, and then five feet off that corner. Bowling: Five feet north. Rhines: Five feet north and five feet east--five feet further east. Henzi: All right, then to Mr. Fisher, what do we actually do after we tabled it? Fisher: Well-- Henzi: Make a motion to remove it from the table and do another motion? Fisher: Yeah. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Upon Motion by Pastor supported by Caramagno, it was: RESOLVED:APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-06-30: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Patrick Sayn, 38070 Jamison, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a 6-foot tall privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in the fence being within the side yard and excess fence height. Privacy fences must not extend beyond the rear line of the home toward the street. Fence Height Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Jamison (38070) between Blue Skies and Houghton, Lot No. 073-02-0223-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A,4,bii, and be removed from the table. 15.44.090B, “Residential District Regulations,” Henzi: All in favor say aye. Board Members: Aye. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 64 July 15, 2014 Henzi: It is removed from the table, is there a motion then? Upon Motion by Rhines supported by Bowling, it was: RESOLVED:APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-06-30: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Patrick Sayn, 38070 Jamison, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a 6-foot tall privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in the fence being within the side yard and excess fence height. Privacy fences must not extend beyond the rear line of the home toward the street. Fence Height Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Jamison (38070) between Blue Skies and Houghton, Lot No. 073-02-0223-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A,4,bii, and be granted for the following reasons 15.44.090B, “Residential District Regulations,” and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the home is located on a corner lot and the unique layout of the lot. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because of the privacy issues associated with a corner lot and the necessity for a fence for Petitioner’s two dogs. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because they have support from the neighbors. 4. The Board received three letters of approval and no objection letters from neighboring property owners. 5. The property is classified as “low density residential” in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 64 July 15, 2014 FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the fence be moved five (5) feet east from the proposed location presented so that it will be six (6) feet from the sidewalk 2. That the fence be moved five (5) feet north from the corner of the house from the proposed location presented. 3. That the fence be constructed in accordance to the recommendation by the Livonia Police Department to angle the north east corner of the fence. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Rhines, Bowling, Sills, Caramagno, Henzi NAYS: Pastor ABSENT: None Henzi: Okay, the revised plan was approved. You can construct the fence in the revised fashion. Sayn: Right. Henzi: Are you clear on-- Sayn: Yes, I believe so. Henzi: Okay, good luck. Sayn: And if you guys would like I could redo this just to verify it? Henzi: No, we just--we like the inspection department to know because when they inspect they will be looking at the minutes. Sayn: Okay. Henzi: Good luck to you. Sayn: Thank you very much for your time. Henzi: Thank you. Sayn: Will I receive a letter? What do I do next? Fisher: Yes, you will get a letter. Sayn: Okay, thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 64 July 15, 2014 APPEAL CASE NO2014-07-33: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of . Appeals by King’s Row Shopping Center, LLC, 31000 Northwestern Hwy., Suite 200, Farmington Hills, MI 48334, on behalf of lessee Smoky’s Fine Cigars, 16729 Middlebelt Rd., Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to maintain two (2) wall signs, resulting in excess number of wall signs and wall sign area. Number of Wall Signs: Wall Sign Area: Allowed: one Allowed: 27 sq. ft. Existing: two Proposed: 34 sq. ft. Excess: one (two signs at 17 sq. ft. each sign) Excess: 7 sq. ft. The property is located on the west side of Middlebelt (16729) between Munger and Greenland, Lot No. 053-01-0041-000, C-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 18.50H,(b),2 “Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts.” Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: I have nothing to add, sir. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Bowling: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Bowling. Bowling: The question I have I guess is on the original location--the previous location, was that--that was in compliance? That sign as one long sign was it in compliance? Banko: Well I know they came for a variance back in--I don’t think it was for that it was for a front yard setback, but the sign was in compliance at the time. Bowling: It was in compliance? Banko: At the previous location. Bowling: Okay. Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: Just for clarification it was in compliance because it looked like one sign but it was--is divided in half but it was in a row, is that why it was in compliance? Do you know? Banko: The sign is figured out by the lineal feet of frontage on the building. So depending on the lineal feet of frontage you are allowed, I believe--and don’t quote me on this City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 64 July 15, 2014 because I am kind of making an assumption on this petition, and this petitioner may be able to help me. But I believe it is one square foot for every--how does that-- Fisher: Foot of frontage. Henzi: One hundred? Is it one hundred? Banko: I would have to look at the ordinance. Henzi: Or for every foot, that’s what I meant. Fisher: Right--right. Banko: Right, for every-- Henzi: For each, one for one. Banko: Yes. Pastor: One for one. Rhines: Following--continuing on, so this was not in compliance because they moved it to two different planes of the building so now it is clearly two signs instead of one, is that it? Banko: Well part of the variance is is that--not really he is only permitted one wall sign but he--he’s converted it into two. Fisher: But the other thing is-- Banko: On two faces. Fisher: The other thing is if you look at this diagram of the shopping mall you can see his previous location is way wider, has way more frontage than his current location. So the- - Rhines: Okay. Fisher: --big part of your problem actually is right there. Rhines: Perfect, thanks for the clarification that definitely helps. Bowling: On the new location, would there be enough width or enough dimension to fit that sign as it was previously? Banko: No if you--if you look at it with the way it is set up-- Bowling: It didn’t look like it when I drove by. Banko: --it is still over seven square feet over what would be allowable. Bowling: Okay. Henzi: Is this--Steve, is this as simple as saying that this used to be a two unit space and now he is down to one? Banko: Well-- Henzi: Because it is cut in half right? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 64 July 15, 2014 Banko: Yeah, it’s--I guess the difference is is that he doesn’t have the frontage that he once had. But he has a lot more depth than he used to have. So the square footage of both locations is probably similar except that at the previous location he had more frontage on the building. Henzi: Thank you. Anything else for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, would the Petitioner please come to the table? Good evening. Essa: Hello. Tzilos: Good evening. Henzi: Could you tell us your names and address? Tzilos: My name is Peter Tzilos, I am the architect for the landlord. The address is 18277 Filmore, Livonia, Michigan. And this is Teresa Essa, she is the owner of the Smoky Shop in question. Henzi: Go ahead and tell us about the new sign package. Tzilos: The purpose of--the reason for moving is the landlord is trying to update the building. The outside was done a couple of years ago but the inside is pretty old so we want to update the building. One of the major reasons this tenant moved from one space to another, as the gentleman said the square footage is roughly the same but unfortunately here it is a narrow building, much deeper but we do have the second side exposure. And one of the selling points to the tenant was okay, now you can put your sign on both sides. Maybe it doesn’t fit the front put half of it on one side and half of it on the other and you have sort of double exposure. And then when that was moved they realized okay that is not quite possible because of the fact that you have two separate signs. Even though they were separate before if you look at the photograph I mean there is just basically two physically different signs that were next to one another. For now they have been placed on opposite walls. As far as the overage on the sign I understand that is correct but that sign has been there for 25 years. It is the same identical sign. Nobody has a record in the City where it was done with an appeal or waiver or whether the ordinance back then allowed the larger sign. But that sign has been there for I believe something like 25 years for that shop. So basically moved--picked it up and moved it, checked it out made sure it was UL rated and moved it on the new building. And put-- just to make it look good, we don’t want to crowd the front so we put the one section on the front and put the other section on the sides so it doesn’t look like it is over signed. And it looks like--you know--it looks natural because the one side to the south looks like it’s got a sign, the one to the north physically looks to scale--it looks good. But unfortunately we run into the issue of the zoning ordinance and that is why we are here. We are looking for your help, you know. These tenants are trying to survive there. Out of the seven--eight tenants there, half the building is vacant. You know, you already have two--three--four sections vacant. And everyone is struggling to survive and the sign is essential in any business like that. So we are looking for some help from you to maintain that sign essentially, we are not asking for more. Henzi: Did the prior tenant in this space use a sign on both the front fascia and the side? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 64 July 15, 2014 Tzilos: Yeah, the cleaners, it’s been vacant for a few years but yes before then there was signage on both sides of that tenant. But again he had been there for many years and when that was done it is hard to tell whether the ordinance was different back then or if he had a waiver use or what the issue--how it was so. Now the City is much more attuned to what happens and before you know it somebody is over there saying what are doing here. So maybe things were not like that 25--30 years ago. We would like to stay in compliance so that is why we are here. Henzi: The--I think the only other question I have is are you proposing to repurpose the signs because you have them? You know, we get lots of time we’ll get a retailer that will come in and say I want Smoky’s on the front but I want a mirror image on the side because Smoky’s means something-- Tzilos: The tenant-- Henzi: --in the marketplace. So my questions to you is, are you saying we want cigarettes and cigars on the side because we have the sign or is there some other importance to that? Tzilos: I mean this is what the store has been for all these 25 years. So do we change that so it takes away from what the identity of the store is? It would lessen the effectiveness I think? So even if there was a new sign constructed today, more than likely it would say pretty much similar to what this says. If there was a need to actually physically do a new sign. It would be the same thing as this, it is part of the logo of the store. This is not the only one there are other--there are three other stores and they have similar signage. So it is like McDonald’s they use identical signs everywhere they go. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner? Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: Did you guys get a permit first? Tzilos: No, unfortunately what they did, they moved the sign thinking okay it is an existing we are not doing anything. And then the Inspector came by for the building inspection and said you can’t do that even if it is the same sign you still have to get a permit. So they came in and they got a permit for it. Rhines: Was it a professional sign company that moved it? Tzilos: Yeah, the company that moved it was a sign company. Yeah the sign company moved it. Rhines: Okay. So they--you know--they should have known-- Tzilos: We found out the hard way yes, it wasn’t done correctly. We apologize and we-- you know--it took some effort to get the paperwork done in the way that is appropriate. And that’s where it is, I guess we--everybody knows better what not to do the next time around for this to happen. Rhines: And so just to echo the sentiment. Your intention was to reuse that sign, you didn’t’ get new signs made so you just reused the existing signs? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 64 July 15, 2014 Tzilos: Right, exactly. Rhines: Okay. Tzilos: I have--I don’t know if you have it but I have actual photographs of the sign where it was before and where it is now. So it is the actual sign, it is not a different sign, it’s the same identical sign. Rhines: Okay. Henzi: This? Tzilos: Yes. Henzi: Yes, we all have it. Tzilos: You can see where it was before and where it is now basically just flipped around the corner. Rhines: Okay, no more questions. Henzi: Any other questions? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: How do you as the property manager, how do you treat the tanning salon next door with a sign that is inside out or turned around backwards. You can read it only because you can see through it. How do you treat the property to the north of here that is going to ask for the same thing? Tzilos: You know--I mean--I have not talked to them. I am not aware of what their situation is as far as whether they applied to get a waiver or not, whether they were turned down or not. I don’t really know. Caramagno: I’m not saying they have I’m saying as soon as this goes up the property next door, the tanning salon is going to want to do the same thing. They are going to want to put--I don’t see the name here but-- Tzilos: I mean this sign is actually installed, the-- Caramagno: I understand it is installed. Tzilos: It is already installed. Caramagno: Designer Tan is going to say I want to put a sign on the other side of this building--on the north side of this building that says tanning lotion, beach towels, sunglasses, what-- Tzilos: You know--I mean-- Carmagno: --would you say in rebuttal to that? This--the name of your company is Smoky’s Fine Cigars, and yet you want to put up cigarettes and cigars, what-- Tzilos: No, I mean it’s Smoky’s Cigars-- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 64 July 15, 2014 Caramagno: --would be your thought as to the tanning salon next door doing the same thing. It’s called Designer Tan, and on their sign on their side of the building they are going to want to put up beach towels, sunglasses, lotions, why would it be any different for them? Essa: Well we have always been known as Smoky’s Cigarettes and Cigars, but I think the paperwork just says Smoky’s Fine Cigars. But it has always been Smoky’s Cigarettes and Cigars. Tzilos: I mean that’s their whole logo actually. To answer your question I don’t know, I am not the landlord I am the architect that works for them. So if the tanning wants to do that the owner is going to say okay go to the City and if that is something that is allowed- -I mean you have to talk to the City whether that is going to be allowed or not. And you would have to make that decision what is appropriate. Caramagno: And that’s how I am going to make a decision tonight. Tzilos: Yes. Caramagno: At least in my mind is if we allow it here we may just as well allow it on the building next to it right next door. Tzilos: I don’t know that they want that sign. I don’t know that they applied for it, I have no idea. Essa: I think that was an old sign from a previous--- Tzilos: It was a previous tenant? See that I guess that sign to the north is not--it is something from the previous tenant it is not something they had. I--you know--I have no information on that. Caramagno: How many--how many signs have you got in the windows here? You’ve got--I see a lot of neon signs, gifts and accessories, cigars, humidor walk-in-- Tzilos: Are you looking at the old store? Caramagno: I am looking at the old and assuming that the new store window is going to look the same unless you can tell me it won’t. Tzilos: You know--how many of these signs are actually moved over to the new location? Essa: In the new location we have an open sign, I’ve got a neon of a cigar, the gifts and accessories that was tossed. Very--very few--not as many. Tzilos: You don’t have the length of the store front to--you couldn’t even if you wanted to there is no physical room to bring all these items to the front of the store. Caramagno: I understand. We’re looking at the same pictures here and these front windows are loaded with signs. Tzilos: Right, the existing window you mean? Caramagno: It is a little excessive in my mind and you are asking for more than what the ordinance calls and the front windows are loaded. You can’t even see through them there are so many signs. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 64 July 15, 2014 Essa: Are you talking about the old building? Caramagno: I’m talking about the old building. So how do we--how do we--how do we keep the new building-- Tzilos: Looking like the old one, oh yeah-- Caramagno: To not look like the old one? Tzilos: Right, I mean. Essa: It’s not. Tzilos: One way to do it is--I mean any approval you give tonight obviously you are going to restrict any additional signage so-- Caramagno: Mike, can we restrict signage in the windows of the building? Fisher: Absolutely. Banko: Can I make a comment? Caramagno: Yeah. Henzi: Mr. Banko, yeah. Banko: Per the ordinance, permanent signage in the window you’re not permitted to have more than ten square feet of permanent signage in the windows. You are allowed to have twenty percent temporary signs which is in the windows, but that’s has to be changed every thirty days. But for permanent signage which we would consider your open sign and your cigar, you can never outline your windows with neon because that is prohibited by ordinance. But that would be something my officers are out on a regular basis looking at so we would be patrolling those types of things. Caramagno: That is all the questions I’ve got. Henzi: I have a couple more. There is no door access on the south side right? Tzilos: It is locked, there is a door but it is locked. Henzi: So in the photo that I am looking at and from driving by there’s--I don’t know if they are blinds but it’s all blocked off? Tzilos: Yes, there plastic--there is a white film on the glass actually. Henzi: I mean that was my fear that that’s going to turn into the place where all of your vendors come in and say put--you know--put the Newports, put Marlboro’s, everything, I’m worrying about that turning into-- Tzilos: This outside glass has a white film behind it because there are fixtures next door. So you could not even if you want to you could not display anything because it is not visible from the outside. There is film attached to the glass. Henzi: No, understand--okay, maybe you are answering the question. I mean it is obviously designed to attract folks that are walking from one tenant space to the next. I mean you’re--you want everyone to come through the front door. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 64 July 15, 2014 Tzilos: Right, the sign up above is intended to let the people know hey the store is over there now. The one that says--I guess we say on it, cigars--cigarettes and cigars. That’s the sign that is up above the glass, that’s intended in a way to say here’s where the store is now. Because from the south side of the building no one knows the store moved. And that’s one of the other reasons it is important to have something on that façade of the tenants space. But as far as the glass below it, you can’t display anything because there is--it is not glass anymore. Henzi: I’m sorry--respectfully, I do not believe that is going to stay white film. Tzilos: It is actually physically closed off. I mean there’s a white film on the back. Half of it actually is the humidor. There is a wall constructed behind it. You can’t even see the glass. Henzi: I get it, but that’s a--that’s your opportunity to turn this into a billboard. That is a huge square footage and it is wasted space in my opinion because no one can walk in there. I am very concerned about that. Not because of anything you did or said but because I’ve had experience with these types of things in the past and because I am looking at the old location. Tzilos: So is it your concern that signs will be applied to that window? Henzi: Yeah. Tzilos: The window on the south side? Henzi: Lots of signs, yeah. Tzilos: Okay. I mean I can tell you that physically you can’t do that. Now of course if you remove the fixtures and you remove the wall you can do that. But the-- Henzi: That’s my point that in some point, two weeks from now Mrs. Essa is going to say that is wasted space. Get the white film down and let’s get all of our vendors signs up there. Tzilos: Okay, but did you understand what I am saying that part of that glass actually behind it there is the humidor that--there is no exit, there is a wall constructed. You can’t see the glass window, it’s drywall, there is a wall right behind the glass. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: So you are saying you want to block it off so you can’t see-- Tzilos: It is blocked off. Henzi: --into the humidor? Tzilos: Exactly, it is blocked off because in the humidor that is where the controlled temperature is. So there is a wall--there is a physical wall from the door to the left--it would be to the west, there is a wall behind that window. You can’t--you don’t know there is a window behind back there it is completely closed off. The painted glass to the right of the door they have fixtures in front of them, there is film on it. I--my actual suggestion was to try to remove the film to try to let people know there is a store over there, not just to put sign on it but somebody can see action inside the store, they can see the store is City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 64 July 15, 2014 open. But they chose to close that off and put fixtures on it. But as far as the signage if there is a limit to how much sign they can display in the windows, then they are going to have to live with that limit. Henzi: Agreed. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yeah, I share the same concern as the Chair because there are things called window clings that you put on the outside of windows that you can take and put on for thirty days, sixty days, a hundred and twenty days. Tzilso: We have two banner signs this year so far. Pastor: I do have that same concern with the Chair that these windows can look the same way as the window used to look. Mr. Banko. Banko: Mr. Chair, the ordinance strictly prohibits placing any placard or signage on the out--on the exterior of the building. If at all they would be permitted to get a banner permit which would have to go up on the building and that--you are only allowed to do that for a two week span. And of course permits are required which is going to cost money in order to do that. But I will tell you that the ordinance department on a regular basis have gone throughout the City and if there is signage where it is prohibited we write violations on it all the time. Henzi: I know you do and to me that is an important point. And I know that we have approved sign packages in the past and then these things creep up. I’ll give you an example--a perfect example that we--there is a home health care company on Middlebelt that is just south of this property that has portraits of home health care being given to senior citizens on all their windows. That was never disclosed to us. If I had known the windows were going to look like that I would never have approved it. So my point to you is that maybe a condition is redundant because the ordinance already prevents them from doing it. I just don’t like being associated with granting a variance and then two weeks from now they are going to break the ordinance. Banko: By all means I don’t see anything with applying the condition to it also which puts them in double jeopardy if in fact they go ahead and do it because if that is one of the conditions then I would think that--and Mr. Fisher can chime in, if they violate the conditions of their variance do they continue to have their variance Mr. Fisher? Fisher: Well, they continue to have the variance but the way the ordinance works and maybe this is still redundant. Any condition on a variance becomes part of the ordinance that is applied to that piece of property. So to the extent your condition says something that is already in the ordinance that doesn’t matter. But you could say a condition like you can’t have any other signage on the south side other than the cigarettes and cigar sign you are already approved there to allay your concern about them layering that with a whole lot of other stuff. Henzi: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 64 July 15, 2014 Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: Mr. Fisher, just to follow up on the question. Does that mean if we did put that condition in no other window signage, if they put window signage violating the condition of the ordinance do they then--do we take away the right--do they lose the right to have the two signs and they go back to being only allowed to have one sign? Or do they just have to take down what’s in the window to be in compliance? Fisher: Well, they take it down or they look at going to jail I guess. Rhines: Okay. Tzilos: Okay, let me just make a comment. The ordinance clearly specifies what window signs or the areas and so forth that you are allowed to do. Right now this is not a window on the south side. In the future if--like I recommended--at least part of the window is opened up why wouldn’t they be entitled to do whatever the ordinance allows in it? You know it’s a separate issue, we are here to ask you for the second sign up above. If there’s excess sign (sic) in the window they--you’re right to cite them, take them to court, do whatever you want to do. There is a limit to what they can do in the windows down below. Henzi: That’s my whole point. You are trying to turn this into not a window so that you can fill it up with signs, that’s what I am worried about. If that is not the case then why would you ask to treat it not like a window? Tzilos: I think there is a misunderstanding here. Henzi: You said it is not a window-- Tzilos: No the window-- Henzi: --so shouldn’t they be able to put signs there. Tzilos: The south side--facing the south side is not--right now it’s a window but it’s got a film blocked in the back of it. In otherwords if you look at it you can’t see through. Henzi: Got it. Tzilos: And that was done because they have fixtures on the inside of the store against the wall. Henzi: Got it. Tzilos: Half of that is actually is a wall, so even if you take the film off you can’t get to the film it is a wall. The other half is window, so in theory you can take the film off and that opens up and that becomes a window just like the front the does. If that ever happens then that will be a window just like any window and they can have whatever signs are allowed on the window. But you can’t have more signs other than what is allowed on the windows. And this up above is a separate issue. The sign up above is a totally separate issue than any windows. So are we-- Henzi: Well, it’s not a separate issue because your client is asking for a variance and we are allowed to condition the variance. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 64 July 15, 2014 Tzilos: True. Henzi: And we’re saying--I’m saying no way am I going to approve two signs if you are going to fill up the windows with mores signs. I guess I don’t understand your distinction. Are you telling me if there is film up it is not a window and they can put signs there? Tzilos: No--no--no, what I am saying is that it is not in the sense right now--it’s not like a window you can see through, you can’t put a sign up and somebody sees it from the outside. Because you can put a sign up nobody will see it because it is blocked. So what is the benefit of having a sign on the window that faces out when you can’t see in or out? It is a solid film, you can’t see. So there’s no benefit to putting a sign up on a window. Henzi: That’s the way it looked when it was in the old location. Tzilos: In the old window--in the old location has signs on the window, I mean-- Henzi: You couldn’t see through. What’s the difference between the black film on the old location and the white film on the new location? Tzilos: If--if you can see it on the old location there’s a sign up on the outside because otherwise you wouldn’t be able to see it. And that black film on the old location is not full all the way up, it’s partial all the way up --it’s not all the way up to the glass. So I don’t know if some of these signs are--if they are--if they are on the black portion of the film they are applied from the outside because you-- Henzi: Those white decals are not on the black part of the film? Tzilos: Do you remember any of these signs here which part-- Essa: Of these decals right here? Tzilos: Yeah, these decals right here. They have to be on the outside-- Essa: Right, they are on the outside. Tzilos: --if they’re--they are applied on the outside of the glass. In fact the film over there is applied on the outside of the glass--the old location-- Henzi: That is exactly contrary to what you just said. You just said there is film on there, it’s not a window why would we put signs there? My response, you already did. Tzilos: Okay, what I am saying--maybe I didn’t quote right. When I say put signs in the window I mean put a window--a sign on the inside of the building where you can see it from the outside. That is not physically possible here. Henzi: To me I don’t care. I see decals for tons of vendors-- Tzilos: Oh, there’s-- Henzi: --on the old location. That’s what I don’t want. Tzilos: No question that you can restrict any--all signs on the outside. There should not be anything on the outside of the windows. Not only on the film one but on the other one. Henzi: They shouldn’t have been there two years ago. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 64 July 15, 2014 Tzilos: Okay, I--I agree. I don’t know how long--how long have those decals there? How long ago do you think these signs were installed on this space? Essa: Fifteen years maybe. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Can you explain to me what the cigarettes and cigars sign separate from Smoky’s is going to do for you as a business? I mean, it’s facing the south side of the road. You might get some northbound traffic but there’s lots of places that sell cigars and cigarettes, I mean why is that sign so important? What is the practical difficulty because we have not heard that yet? Tzilos: It is part of the name--that portion is part of the name of the store--that is part of the logo. Pastor: It is no longer attached to the name. Tzilos: I know. I mean-- Pastor: It is no longer next to the name. Tzilos: Right, physically we can’t put it in the front because that would be over crowded so we moved it around the side. Pastor: Okay. It is no longer attached to the name or next to the name so how is it part of the name? Tzilos: I mean the store name is that in total. I’m not talking about just the sign over there but the identity of the store, their literature and everything else is that total sign that you see there, Smoky’s Cigarettes and Cigars. Pastor: If it was together I would agree with you but now it is no longer together. So I’m driving up the road saying Cigarettes and Cigars that might be George’s. Oh, I guess its Smoky’s when I get around to the other side. It doesn’t make sense that you need that there, to me at least. Tzilos: I mean, would it--would it--would it help-- Pastor: I don’t understand how you are telling me that it is part of-- Tzilos: --you to move it to the front, I mean I don’t think the front is probably the best place to put it because of the narrower length but that’s one thing to do if you don’t want it on the side we move along the front as it was before. I think it is more appropriate to have it the way it is pictured here and it does lend the tenant some visibility. And I think most people that would see it are people that normally shop at the store, they know what the name is. And generally they have a set of customers it is not like everybody that goes there goes in because they just happen to see the store. They go there because they are longtime customers, they have been there for 25 years. And if they pull into the parking lot they don’t see a sign over there, they will see it over there. They will know that that is the same store. Pastor: Okay. Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 64 July 15, 2014 Henzi: Any other questions? Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: You said there was some intentions on remodeling the building. Are those plans- -you know--are they already in place or is that just a thought? Tzilos: No they are talking to some tenants. It is separate tenants here so they are trying to create some interest. They have that space now is vacant if you look in the plan here. The space between this store and the wine shop is vacant. And the middle where the-- between the nails and the fine wines again that is vacant. Rhines: So what was the purpose of the move? I’m just stepping back here. Tzilos: We are trying to upgrade the whole building. We are looking at paving the lot, they are looking to upgrade the inside of the building in some of these tenant’s spaces. Clean it out, just--and trying to attract tenants. So--I mean--and some of the reasons they wanted to do it as well I mean that was an old store. So by moving to this location obviously where they are now that space was completely redone. It was the old cleaners, we completely gutted everything out and rebuilt the whole space. So they are in a much better environment now as a viable business. Rhines: And then you mentioned that the landlord said there would be--you know--you would be able to catch advertising from both sides? Tzilos: I mean it is obvious you have exposure more on the south side, so I don’t know that that is something that the landlord promised you can have this. But they were there, they know the building more than the landlord does, they have been there for a long time so. Rhines: Does that create a bigger vacant space together so maybe you can attract a larger tenant is that part of the idea? Tzilos: Well at this point--no at this point the old location is the same size it was it is no different. I mean there’s--they are not continuous. The other space that is vacant is two spaces over, you see the former 16717 is vacant. So there is no benefit in other words there is no space being combined the way-- Rhines: Okay. Tzilos: There are three spaces vacant but they are all different locations right now. Rhines: Which other one is vacant besides the-- Tzilos: The south end is vacant, and the--it says vacant at the middle of the store between the Diva’s and the Fine Cigar--the Fine Wine, the plan shows vacant. Do you have the floor plan with you? Rhines: Yeah. Tzilos: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 64 July 15, 2014 Rhines: I’m seeing the previous location is vacant, the one that says vacant is vacant, the former Pizazz is vacant. Tzilos: Yes, and-- Rhines: And the third one is where? Tzilos: Right next to the new location of Smoky’s. Rhines: The one that says Fine Wine new expansion? Tzilos: Yes, for a while there--you know--the landlord thought they had an agreement to get the wine shop to take that over but unfortunately the economy being what it still they are hesitating to do that. They would like to be able to do that but so far that is not in the works. Rhines: Thank you. Mr. Fisher. Fisher: Yes, sir. Rhines: When--if we grant a variance is it granted to the landlord or just for that tenant? So it they move out and new a tenant moves in they can only have one sign, is that correct? Fisher: It is granted to the property owner but I suppose you could if you were really concerned about this-- Tzilos: The applicant here is the tenant by the way so if that makes a-- Fisher: Well the applicant is by ordinance, the applicant is always actually the owner. I mean the person that wants this is the tenant but the applicant is the owner. And I guess you could theoretically condition it on this tenant only if you wanted to. Rhines: Okay. Fisher: I mean I’m not really sure why you would do that because the theory of a variance is that there is some practical difficulty that compels this to be set up the way that it is and I don’t know if that really ever ends when the tenant changes. Rhines: I’m just contemplating if the reuse of the existing sign constitutes a practical difficulty whereas a new tenant would have to create a brand new sign and therefore they wouldn’t--if that was my only practical difficulty a new tenant wouldn’t have that same difficulty. So for me it would end when the tenant--I would want it to end when the tenant left if that was possible. Fisher: Okay. Rhines: That is why I was asking. Fisher: Okay. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I have two last questions I believe. Practical difficulty. You’ve heard us say it a couple of time, what is your practical difficulty? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 64 July 15, 2014 Tzilos: Trying to survive is one thing, using the same store identity. I mean we are moving from location A to location B. So we are not creating a space here we are trying to move the one tenant from one space to the other and maintain the same identity. Pastor: I’m not sure if you really answered my question. Is this tenant, Smoky’s the owner of the shopping plaza? Tzilos: No. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Along those lines, this is to Mrs. Essa. What is more important to you the signs-- the recognition of the sign and having the logo or having the new tenant space? Essa: Wait, say that again. Henzi: What is more important, having Smoky’s Cigarettes and Cigars on the building or having the new tenant space? Essa: Well the sign obviously it’s the exposure. When we first opened up in Livonia we were like the only cigar cigarette store in Livonia and now there is like twenty. So the competition is--it’s huge. So we are just trying to survive. So the more exposure that we get--excuse me--I need all the help I can get is what I am saying for exposure. And that is part of the reason to be--to move to that side too was to be more exposure, closer to the street, and have--you know--more space, more visible and that sign helps people coming down Middlebelt. Henzi: When you say closer to the street you’re talking about because that juts out farther to-- Essa: Yeah. Henzi: --Middlebelt? Essa: Yeah. Henzi: Any other reasons why you want to move spaces? Essa: To--why we moved over there? Henzi: Yeah, I mean I’ll be candid. The sign looks fine as it is to me really. And you’re saying I want to move from one end to the other with a completely different configuration I’m just trying to figure out why you want to do that. Is it something other than it is just a new build? And you answered it in part and I’m asking is there anything else? Essa: No. Henzi: Okay. Bowling: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Bowling: Bowling: I just have a question in terms of the hardship here. Would part of the hardship just be the cost of creating a new sign? Obviously you could create a new sign that would fit the sign requirements. It would have the whole terminology that you are looking for, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 64 July 15, 2014 both the Smoky’s and the cigarettes and cigars. But is that part of the hardship the cost of printing the sign? Tzilos: I think that is a certain part, I mean survival, I mean we’re not--you know--it’s difficult to explain--you know--how tough things are to just survive. And--you know--part of the move--part of the reason for the move is besides the fact yeah of exposure, I mean there is an old store 25 years old, I mean you walked in and it’s--you want to get a fresh look, you want to do everything you can. They are closer to--there is a side street here so they moved closer to the side street, they are closer to Middlebelt Road. They have double exposure. There are a number of issues that motivate someone to try to survive- -you know--if you--you know--and the sign is a big thing. This sign--this exact sign repeats itself over at the other stores. The minute you change it you go--you can physically shrink it in half that way you don’t exceed the--but you are still going to have two signs so you got that issue. And then with--it doesn’t give you--it doesn’t put out the same message anymore. It’s not the same message anymore. So yes, the cost is one issue but more important than that is you begin to lose the--you begin to lose the identity of the store. Henzi: Anything else? Is there anybody in the audience that wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the table. Seeing no one coming forward can you read- - Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: I’m sorry. You have letters from neighbors? That was what I was going to ask about. I don’t have those in my packet, but did the neighbors--did any of the neighbors put any letters of complaint about this idea or not? Caramagno: I’ve got four I’ll read them real fast here. Rhines: Okay, sorry, thank you. Caramagno: Letter of approvals from Steven Schuster, 16338 Middlebelt (letter read), J. T. Shoumac, 16376 Middlebelt (letter read), and letters of objection from Jean MacDonald 16599 Middlebelt (letter read), Cynthia Wolf, 16555 Middlebelt (letter read). Henzi: Okay, anything you would like to say in closing? Essa: Help. Henzi: Okay, thanks. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Rhines. Rhines: Typically I’m a stickler for signage because it becomes a signage war. You know if one cigarette and cigar shop has this--you know gets a bigger sign, gets more signs, they have an advantage and everybody else wants to do it too. So I like Livonia’s ordinances on signs. So I’m typically a very strong advocate for maintaining the signage. Once we got here and we started listening to your comments, I do understand the practical difficulty of 25 years of that exact sign with that wording. To me it makes it a little bit different than if you wanted to create two new signs or if you wanted to duplicate it and have Smoky’s Cigarettes and Cigars facing the front and Smoky’s Cigarettes and City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 64 July 15, 2014 Cigars facing the side that would be an easy decision. No I wouldn’t grant that variance because it is in excess. But there is a little bit of a difficulty here with the reuse of the existing signs. I’m still trying to decide. I look forward the comments of the other Board members. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well I feel that signs on your buildings have to be effective to be useful and effective. We’ve taken a lot of time with this case. Do I think your sign Smoky’s is effective being 30 feet closer to the road than your old building, yeah. And I think just the Smoky’s sign is effective to tell people that is a smoke shop. Between that and what you put in windows I don’t think you can miss it. I--my concern is as I said earlier about the windows, I don’t care for that. I think that is excessive advertisement. You have cigars on your sign that you are asking for. You’ve got a green cigar sign on the window--on the old window. I’ve got to imagine that is going back up too. Essa: It’s not. Caramagno: That’s duplication. I’ve got a concern about the tanning salon next store and them wanting two signs out there because they’ve got both Middlebelt coverage and coverage from say Six Mile Road. I don’t see the need to have the separate cigars and cigarettes sign myself. I don’t think that is any different from the liquor shop saying bourbon or vodka or the tanning shop as I said earlier. So I’m not in support of this second sign for this new building. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I think I am going to have to agree with Sam. There’s many ways you can approach this and make it work. And putting a separate sign saying cigars and cigarettes or cigarettes and cigars on a different wall doesn’t really lead me to believe that that is effective advertising. You could have put a new sign up there a little bit smaller been within the ordinance and got everything you wanted. There are several things that could have happened here. So as it is presented tonight, I don’t think I can support this and-- yes, I don’t think I can support this. Henzi: Mr. Bowling. Bowling: I tend to generally want to do to support businesses in the City and bring jobs and bring income in. So there is a part of me that agrees with Mr. Rhines in terms of being able to repurpose the signs, but the concern I have is do we change things and now that we granted a variance on this structure are we now doing it for the tanning salon next door. So I think at this point I would have a tough time supporting the resolution as is. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I don’t think I could support this. I don’t see any purpose in that sign on the south side of the building without having a sign on the north side of the building. I think that there is plenty of advertising on the Middlebelt Road part of the building and I agree with Mr. Caramagno’s comment as to advertising on the windows themselves as far as cigars City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 64 July 15, 2014 and everything else is concerned. And Smoky’s is a long name in Livonia and I don’t think anybody would have any problems finding you. Henzi: I have to agree. And believe me this troubles me because I drive by that center a lot and it is hurting there is no doubt about it. But you know the petitioners’ representative said that they have long term customers who know that it is Smoky’s, they know what they sell. I don’t see why cigars and cigarettes on that side does the business any good. So I will vote no. The floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Caramagno supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED:APPEAL CASE NO2014-07-33: An appeal has been made to the Zoning . Board of Appeals by King’s Row Shopping Center, LLC, 31000 Northwestern Hwy., Suite 200, Farmington Hills, MI 48334, on behalf of lessee Smoky’s Fine Cigars, 16729 Middlebelt Rd., Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to maintain two (2) wall signs, resulting in excess number of wall signs and wall sign area. Number of Wall Signs: Wall Sign Area: Allowed: one Allowed: 27 sq. ft. Existing: two Proposed: 34 sq. ft. Excess: one (two signs at 17 sq. ft. each sign) Excess: 7 sq. ft. The property is located on the west side of Middlebelt (16729) between Munger and Greenland, Lot No. 053-01-0041-000, C-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 18.50H,(b),2 “Sign Regulations in be denied for the following reasons and findings of C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts’” fact: 1. That petitioner has not shown a practical difficulty. 2. That the Petitioner currently has ample signage. 3. That the requested sign is not the name of the business and is not needed. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 64 July 15, 2014 ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Sills, Bowling, Henzi NAYS: Rhines ABSENT: None Henzi: The variance is denied. Tzilos: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 64 July 15, 2014 APPEAL CASE NO.2014-07-34: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Michael Bauer, 33621 N. Hampshire, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to remove an attached garage and construct a new detached garage, resulting in excess garage area. Detached Garage Area: Allowed: 660 sq. ft. Proposed: 768 sq. ft. Excess: 108 sq. ft. The property is located on the south side of Hampshire (33621) between Stamford and Hampshire South, Lot No. 064-01-0773-000, R-4B Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 2.10(5) “Definition of Miscellaneous Terms.” Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the petitioners please come to the table? Good evening. Mary Bauer: Good evening. I am Mary Bauer, 33621 N. Hampshire, that is my home. Kwolek: My name is Mark Kwolek, I am from Planned Home Improvement, a contractor hired by Mr. and Mrs. Bauer to construct a garage. Henzi: Okay, go ahead and tell us about the new garage. Kwolek: The garage right now will be constructed in the backyard. It will be a freestanding garage and the new garage will be 24 feet by 32 feet deep. It would be a standard height- -wall height so it is not any taller than normal. They are going with a standard height garage door in the front. The roof pitch we have a 5--12 which is similar to the house, a little steeper than a 4--12 which is standard. And the roof as far as going from front to back so the garage is longer from the front view it’s 24 feet wide which is considered a two and a ½ car garage. And the outside would be constructed with vinyl siding, aluminum trim. The house has which aluminum trim on it so we were going to do white siding and trim. And the roof of course the shingles would match the house roof. There’s currently a 12 foot attached garage that is on the side of the house right now that they would be removing. It is only like a one car wide and so they are going to be taking that down and putting this garage in the rear yard. And-- Henzi: Did you--go ahead. Kwolek: Okay. The garage is 32 feet deep, roughly--we build garages--pickup trucks anything like that needs 20 feet on the inside. So anything that we build normally is around 22 to 24 in the depth. Where the extra 32 feet comes in is as far--because as I said it’s like two and ½ car wide they were just going to put a partition in the back there just to keep their yard equipment. They have a large lot, they have two lots. And for yard City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 64 July 15, 2014 equipment, patio furniture, things like that just to keep it out of sight. They don’t have a shed or anything like that and they just want to house any of the yard equipment like I said and patio furniture. And then the front part would just be used for cars, just to keep things out of sight and locked up and secured. Henzi: What color on the siding? Kwolek: White. Henzi: And then are you going to pour a concrete approach? Kwolek: Yeah, we have to add additional concrete. Where the existing garage is sitting now that concrete is all old and everything. We’ll be taking that out and replacing all that up to the front of the garage. There will be no more concrete to the side or anything of the garage. The concrete will be 24 feet wide just like the garage is in the front. Henzi: And then are you going to taper the driveway? Kwolek: His driveway is already that wide, we’re not making it any wider. Henzi: Okay. Any questions? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: When the garage--when the one car garage comes down what do you do with the wall--the exposed wall? Kwolek: It’s a block--yeah they--it’s kind of a funny situation but I’ve got a print here for that that was going in with the permit. We’re covering that block with brick to match the house. And the house has a hip roof and we are just extending the hip over this little jog that is in there so it’s all going to be--match the house. Caramagno: So do you reuse the garage brick, is that what you do? Kwolek: No, there is no brick--you know there is brick on there. Mainly what happens is my brick guy we do a match as close as we can and he is pretty good at it. A lot of times those brick if they’ve got those holes in it they are hard to clean up to use so we normally- -if we can save any and salvage it we try to use that around the front as much as possible. There is a two foot jog on that part that is exposed with block that we are covering. Somebody put a block closet into the house and that’s why that attached garage was never very useful because it’s a bedroom so there is no way to get into the house from that attached garage. Fisher: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Fisher. Fisher; You indicated on the back of the picture there is going to be a brick front on the garage, can you tell us a little bit more about that? Kwolek: Yeah, I--originally we were going with a half brick front and just as far as coming today she was--the homeowners were debating whether or not they wanted to put the brick on there. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 64 July 15, 2014 Mrs. Bauer: We actually decided not to. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: So, the new garage gets built, you are going to put new concrete where you removed the old garage, will that be a concrete approach from the new garage all the way out to the street? Kwolek: No--no--no, we’re only adding--where the garage--the attached garage is right now, we tear that cement and we’re just replacing right from there to the new garage. I have a cement sketch if somebody would like to see, what’s going to be new. Henzi: Yes, could you pass it around? Pastor: But I believe there was already concrete from that existing garage out to the street, is there not? Kwolek: Yeah, we’re not redoing anything with that right. Pastor: Okay. Mrs. Bauer: That’s all brand new. Kwolek: That’s all existing. Pastor: Do you have a basement in your house? Mrs. Bauer: Yes, I do. Pastor: And this extra storage area is for? Mrs. Bauer: Patio furniture, lawn equipment, I mean like he said we have a double lot. I don’t know if you know Coventry Gardens we have a million trees in there--push blowers, back pack blower--you know--your typical edgers--you know--we have a two tiered deck on the back of the house, I have patio furniture that I’ve never been able to put away in the winter time. I’ve got a barbeque that is four years old that I now have to throw it out because even though it’s got a cover on it, it sits out there in the winter time and things get ruined. It would be nice to be able to put stuff away and actually have it last. Kwolek: I would just like to correct myself. I did say the garage was 24 foot wide, and the apron was 24, the apron is only 19. The driveway that is coming up there is 19 so we are just keeping that so it is not as wide as the garage. Pastor: So you have the floor of the driveway toward the garage? Kwolek: The way the drive--the extension that we are doing, we are following the straight line from the existing and that will cover the door opening. And on the left side there will be grass left in front of the garage for three feet. So where they are driving they will have the concrete just in front of that area. Pastor: What kind of service are you putting in the garage anything unusual? Kwolek: Electrical you mean? Pastor: Yep. You’re not putting a hundred amp panel or nothing like that? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 64 July 15, 2014 Kwolek: No. Mrs. Bauer: No. Kwolek: Let me just find my one sheet. Sorry, I didn’t know you were going to ask me that. No, we just have regular what they call keyless light fixtures like basement light fixtures, four lights in the garage, three outlets. And then in the work area a couple more outlets and coach lights on the outside. Pastor: So a couple circuits? Kwolek: Yeah, probably three probably. Pastor: Thank you. Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: For clarification, the part you need the variance for is to have the extra-large garage? To have the extra-- Mrs. Bauer: The extra eight feet. Rhines: Yeah-- Mrs. Bauer: The shed area because I don’t want to put a shed up and in my yard we don’t have one now and I’d rather not put one up. I’d rather just have it all right there instead of having--you know--ten different things in my backyard. Rhines: Is there a--so that’s kind of a want which is fine. Is there another need, I mean is there another reason why you need the larger than normal garage? You know, park an extra car in there, you know too many living in the--more people--extra people living in the house and more--and you need to get another car in the garage to make sure you have enough room. Mrs. Bauer: Well, right now we can get no cars in the garage. Rhines: I definitely see the need to do something. Mrs. Bauer: Yeah, I have a one car garage that right now houses more of my lawn equipment, none of my patio equipment. I mean I still have garbage cans out on the side of the garage. It would actually be nice to be able to clean my house up, my backyard and the side of my house and look like the rest of my neighbor’s homes that have large garages and can put their things away. Rhines: Okay, anything else you can think of--yeah and we’ve got rules to follow and I’m- -and if I’m making the motion I’m going to try--I got to say why it’s a difficulty for you-- Kwolek: Yeah, I-- Rhines: --and I’ll let you be creative instead of me here. Kwolek: Yeah, basically it’s just with vehicles and by the time you get them in there and open it up it is really hard--it sounds like a lot eight feet but by the time you put another wall partition up in there to separate it, I mean just patio furniture, a table could be six foot City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 64 July 15, 2014 round. It’s just--it just eats up space pretty quick. And rather than have a jog or have it-- you know--four foot in the back it just doesn’t serve the purpose. A lot of people sometimes they have it to the side and they go wider with the garage, but I think from the front it would look better and not look so wide. Rhines: You know, because you’re in--a lot of trees there’s a--you’ve got a large lot, you’ve got--do you have a lot of--do you have two lawn mowers like a rider and a push mower? Mrs. Bauer: No, just a push mower, push blower, gas edger, back pack blower, weed whacker, you know--and then of course you’ve got patio furniture, grandchildren’s sandbox, picnic tables. Rhines: Okay, thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Is there a back door to this house? Why didn’t you just attach this garage and you could have avoided this completely? Mrs. Bauer: My back door is literally in the back of the house. Kwolek: It’s way around. Mrs. Bauer: It’s like in the center of my house in the back of my house. Pastor: Okay, so putting a breezeway would not be easily done? Kwolek: No. Mrs. Bauer: No. Pastor: Okay, thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Bowling: I have a question for building. Is there a different requirement or different allowance for attached garages? Just a learning experience here for me. In terms of size allowed? Fisher: It depends, you can have--if you have no other outbuildings you can go all the way up to--potentially go all the way up to 900 square feet for an attached garage. Bowling: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Mrs. Bauer, would you be okay with a requirement or a condition that you can’t have any sheds or outbuildings? Mrs. Bauer: I would be fine with that. Henzi: And is it just two doors for this garage, the large front door and then the service door? Mrs. Bauer: There’s also going to be a door on the outside to the shed area and then I would also like to have shed doors inside the garage for like moving your picnic table and you know-- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 64 July 15, 2014 Kwolek: Yeah, that would not be exposed. Mrs. Bauer: --patio table that kind of thing. But that wouldn’t be exposed. Kwolek: There would be two service doors on the outside. Mrs. Bauer: There would be two service doors on the outside. Henzi: Thank you. Anything else? Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. Albert Uryga: I live right behind them. Henzi: Your name and address? Uryga: Albert Uryga: Henzi: And what’s your address? Uryga: 33642 Southhampshire Street. I don’t see no problem with this as far as--I think it is going to look nice in the neighborhood. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? No. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: A letter of approval from Gregory Kowal, 33659 Northhampshire (letter read), an undecided letter from Charles Eastman, 33639 Northampshire, (letter read). Henzi: Mrs. Bauer, is there anything you would like to say in closing? Mrs. Bauer: In reference to his, the garage is on the opposite side of the house, it is nowhere near his house. The roof is going to match the color of my house. Mr. Bauer: It’s going to be a nice looking garage. Mrs. Bauer: It’s--I mean it’s not a cheap project. We’re ripping down a garage, ripping out that cement, putting in new cement forward and--I mean we live in a beautiful area, we lived there almost 28 years. Mr. Bauer: Thirty. Mrs. Bauer: Thirty. So I mean we like our other neighbors, this one we don’t speak to, so it doesn’t surprise me. But I mean my other neighbors around us have no problem with it. So-- Mr. Bauer: We asked them all. Mrs. Bauer: We asked them all and we said if you have a problem please let us know. Their only comment was why didn’t you do this twenty years ago. Henzi: And you sir, are you Mr. Bauer--Michael Bauer? Mr. Bauer: Yes, I am. Henzi: Same address? Mr. Bauer: Yes. Henzi: Thank you. That was just for the record. Anything else you want to say Mrs. Bauer? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 64 July 15, 2014 Mrs. Bauer: It’s going to improve our property--you know--we have other larger sized-- oversized garages in the neighborhood also, there are at least four--you know right off the top of my head. And one you guys just did and they were over square footage and they didn’t even have to come and see you guys. The guys downstairs just said okay here and let it go. Mr. Bauer: It was 705. Mrs. Bauer: So, I don’t mind paying my $150.00 and coming here and talking to you guys and you guys finding out exactly what is going on and I know you don’t want a business run out there and I have no plans of running a business out my garage. My husband will tell you he’s the most non-mechanical person in the world. So I mean it’s--it’s basically to improve the--you know--the property and also--you know--improve conditions for us so we can actually put things away. Henzi: Thank you. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Why didn’t you do this twenty years ago? Mrs. Bauer: I don’t know. Three children in parochial schools all with braces. Caramagno: You’ve got my support. The days of a one and a half car garage are long gone, this is a move in the right direction. I am in full support of it. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yes, I can support this as well. Henzi: Mr. Bowling. Bowling: I am in support as well. It looks like a nice addition. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I can also support. At first when I looked at it I said boy this is a pretty big garage but the lot is very good sized and what you have there in a way of an attached garage was almost nothing. In looking at the square footage we allow I think 900 square feet for an attached garage, don’t we--don’t we allow around 900 square feet on an attached garage? Banko: That is correct. That is what Mr. Fisher stated. Sills: Okay, so being that you’re 108 square feet over a detached garage I’m going to just ignore that and I think what you are doing is the right thing. You need the space and as Sam says this is 25 years ago maybe what you had was okay, but now it isn’t. So I’m going to be in support. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: Well I hate to tell anybody no, you know that is an unfortunate part of this Zoning Board here is that we have--you know--we have to--we have rules we have to follow and I do thank you for coming here because this is an easy yes. And it’s nice to get an easy yes every now and again. It makes perfect sense, I think it will fit right in with the neighborhood. There are other detached garages sitting in a similar place. If I make a City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 64 July 15, 2014 motion I’ll include that you don’t put any sheds on there or other outbuildings or a few more conditions here. But I think it makes perfect sense. Thank you. Henzi: I too will approve. Everyone should be able to park a car in their garage. And to me it’s a no brainer because if you--you’re allowed 660 square feet and if you have a-- you are also allowed a 200 square foot garage that’s 860, you’re not at 860. So to me it is no big deal. So the floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Rhines supported by Bowling, it was: RESOLVED:APPEAL CASE NO.2014-07-34: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Michael Bauer, 33621 N. Hampshire, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to remove an attached garage and construct a new detached garage, resulting in excess garage area. Detached Garage Area: Allowed: 660 sq. ft. Proposed: 768 sq. ft. Excess: 108 sq. ft. The property is located on the south side of Hampshire (33621) between Stamford and Hampshire South, Lot No. 064-01-0773-000, R-4B Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 2.10(5) “Definition of be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: Miscellaneous Terms,” 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the existing garage is small and does not provide adequate storage area for the lawn equipment to maintain the large lot and the patio furniture. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because there would not be adequate space to keep petitioner's vehicles and other belongings inside. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the garage will be similar to other garages in the neighborhood. 4. The Board received one letter of approval, one undecided letter and no objection letters from neighboring property owners. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 64 July 15, 2014 5. The property is classified as “low density residential” in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the garage be built according to the plans presented. 2. That the shingles on the garage match the shingles on the house. 3. That the siding of the garage is white to match the siding of the house as closely as possible. 4. That the existing attached garage be removed. 5. That the exposed block from the existing garage be covered with brick. 6. That the driveway be extended to the new garage. 7. That the electrical service is to be standard service. 8. That no additional sheds or outbuildings be constructed on this property. 9. That this variance is good for six (6) months. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Rhines, Bowling, Pastor, Sills, Caramagno, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: None Henzi: The variance is granted with nine conditions let me go over them one more time. You’ve got to build the garage according to the plans. The shingles are to match the house. The siding is to be white and match the house as close as possible. You’ve got to remove the existing attached garage. You’ve got to extend the driveway as stated to what exists right now. And cover the block walls. Standard electrical service, no other outbuildings, and it is good for six months which means you’ve got six months to complete it. It doesn’t mean it expires in six months. Mrs. Bauer: Thank you. Kwolek: Thank you. Henzi: Good luck to you. Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 64 July 15, 2014 Mr. Bauer: I am a little mechanical. Henzi: For the record. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 64 July 15, 2014 APPEAL CASE NO.2014-07-36: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Phil Kupras, 16023 Merriman, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct an addition to the front of an attached garage, resulting in deficient front yard setback. A portion of the existing garage will be converted to living area. Front Yard Setback: Required: 50.0 ft. Proposed: 41.2 ft. Deficient: 8.8 ft. The property is located on the west side of Merriman (16023) between East Myrna Ave and Five Mile, Lot No. 060-01-0603-002, RUF-A Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 5.05 “Front Yard.” Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: No, Mr. Henzi, I have nothing to add at this time. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Pastor: Mr. Banko, do you have any idea what the setback is on the two neighbors? Banko: How--no I do not, sir. Pastor: Did it look to you that they were forward of this house? Banko: No, not to my knowledge. Pastor: It looked like it to me. Okay, thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, would the petitioner please come forward? Good evening. Kupras: Hi, how are you? My name is Phil Kurpas. My residence is 16023 Merriman Road. Sterbling: My name is Joe Sterbling, I’m a contractor at a building company. Burklow: What is last your name? Sterbling: S-t-e-r-b-l-i-n-g. Henzi: Okay, go ahead and tell us about the garage. Sterbling: We wanted to propose extending the garage out ten feet towards the street so we can build a laundry room into the rear part of the garage which is right at the kitchen area. Sandy, his wife, has some medical problems. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 64 July 15, 2014 Kupras: In 2008 my wife had a liver transplant done and she’s had bumps in the road since then and I am trying to make ways to make our living capabilities easier. Not to mention that I am getting older myself and I’m sure I’m going to be feeling some of the aches and pains. So one of the things that we saw that would help us out a lot is to be able to put the laundry upstairs instead of downstairs where it resides now. And so we were trying to look at some type of plan that we could come up with that might be able to accomplish this at the beginning. So, that’s kind of the reason we wanted to put a laundry room upstairs is to make it a lot easier for my wife getting around the house and eliminate the steps. She has also been prone to some falls in the last few years. Sterbling: She has a hard time maneuvering stairs and that so right now they have to go up and down the stairs. We’ve looked at other alternatives too about where to put it and that and this is really the only place that makes any sense as far as the lay out of the house itself. The floor plan comes out right this way. Kupras: The floor plan plus the lot seems to be a little bit unique. I haven’t been there that long but it looks like the lot has been subdivided and was part of plot 603 I believe which is actually original from that Myrna address. So my neighbor to the north that was originally their lot. Sterbling: He said that both front and back as far as if we went back we would have the same thing. Kupras: With the lot being subdivided it is a lot different. It is an unique lot compared to the rest of the area where much of it is not necessarily as wide but very--very deep. Also I know you guys were trying--the architect here was trying to put out where our lot exists and also the existing house to the north and south of this. In our proposed plan we don’t only bring it out to where they currently are. So we are not trying to do anything that would disturb the neighbors just try to make things look really good and you know recomplete the existing extension in the front to be very similar to the rest of the house. Trying to get matching brick, shingles, and so forth. Henzi: Can you talk about the building materials just quickly, Mr. Sterbling. Sterbling: Well it is two by four construction, brick, insulated, drywall, just normal. The interior like where the laundry room would go we would have to extend the plumbing into that area which I say is adjoining right to the kitchen so all that is pretty much right there. Garagewise is just going to be a bare garage just what it is but dry walled though. I do that for the fireproofing because it is an attached garage. Henzi: And then brick to match on the front column? Sterbling: Yeah, matching brick, right. Henzi: And Mr. Sterbling did I understand you correctly, you’re saying because the lot is basically a square if you put this in the back you would have a rear yard problem with set back? Sterbling: Exactly, we would be encroaching on that and that would at their family room. So you would have a laundry room off the back. You’d walk through the family room to go to the laundry. Isn’t that family room or is that the dining room? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 64 July 15, 2014 Kupras: No, there’s the kitchen, we don’t have a dining room, there’s just a small kitchen, our living room which is more in the center of the house. Our kitchen is on the right it is more the entrance from the garage now is--you would walk into the kitchen--family room- -kitchen. Right there it’s kind of a unique layout I guess you could say. There’s no like foyer or anything like that. So you make an immediate right into the kitchen and on the back of the kitchen there is a deck existing. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the petitioner? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Your brick shows--or your plan shows brick in the front is--on the north side is there brick on the side of the house, I did not look? Sterbling: Yeah, that would be--I believe that is brick all the way around. Kupras: The brick is only on the front facing of this house. It is aluminum sided the rest of the three sides. Pastor: Okay. Okay, that’s all I have. Henzi: So then the siding is to match? Sterbling: Yes. Kupras: Yes, we would be trying to get it as close as we can. The house is about 20 years old so right now we would be trying to get everything as close as we could to match. Henzi: Okay, any other questions? Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: You said it would be--if you put the addition on it would be out as far as the neighbors, do you know exactly? Kupras: Well we know that we won’t be out as far as they are. According to the architect’s drawings and measurements that were taken, the house to the south side is 37 feet from what would be considered the fence line. And I think ours is going to show 41-- Sterbling: It’s 41 and the other is 35. Kupras: --and the other house is 35. Sterbling: So we still wouldn’t be coming out further than what--we would still be back from them. Rhines: Okay, so you are further from Merriman Road than both your neighbors? Sterbling: And it wouldn’t--as far as sight it really wouldn’t make much of a difference to either one of them. Rhines: Okay, thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 64 July 15, 2014 Sterbling: We are in the back of the one house to the north, that’s the back of their house. The other one is to the side of their house. Rhines: Thank you. Sterbling: Sure. Henzi: Anything else? Bowling: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Bowling. Bowling: It looks to me like you are just--if I am reading this correctly you just basically want to move the front of the garage ten--the front of the garage door will be ten feet closer to the road? Sterbling: Yes. Kupras: Yes. Bowling: You are just going to make that garage a little longer? Sterbling: And make the back part of it a laundry room for them. Bowling: How does that affect the entry--the front entry way to the home? Sterbling: It makes the walk that would go alongside the garage a little further--ten foot further. Bowling: Okay. So it’s a little longer? Sterbling: Yes. Bowling: Are you going to keep the same hip style roof on the front or is that going to change? At least from the drawing here it shows a reverse gable-- Sterbling: No, we are going to try to match it. Kupras: He’s shown it as a gable-- Sterbling: He does show it as a gable here, yeah. Kupras: --so it’s--it’s--right now in the drawing it is showing that it would become a gable in the front. Sterbling: Do you want that? Okay, we’ll do it, a gable in the front. Henzi: Any other questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: One quick question. Sterbling: Sure. Pastor: Now that we know that you’re further back than the others, is this garage going to be deep enough for you if you have to get a van or something in the future? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 64 July 15, 2014 Kupras: Well, you know it is one of those things that this was a small garage to begin with-- Pastor: I say you expand it a little bigger. Kupras: --my Grand Marquis like if I bumped the front wall I may have been able to close the garage door so-- Pastor: That’s my reason for asking, maybe you want to go out another two feet or something like that? Kupras: Well, I’m mean once we found out--when the architect found out that--about the new--I shouldn’t say new ordinance but different from what the other houses were because actually we didn’t think we would be coming in front of anybody because we weren’t going out past the other houses. And we applied downstairs they said we needed to revisit this with you and get your help to get the variance. Sterbling: Do you want to add a couple more feet? Kupras: Well, it wouldn’t hurt but I don’t want to press my luck here either on what we are trying to accomplish. The main goal for us is to get the laundry room. Our other car is a Mariner. I’m not one of these guys I don’t go out and get a F-250 or whatever and I’m not planning on that type of situation happening. But yes would it be a little more luxurious to have a little bit larger garage but that’s not my priority. Pastor: The only reason I ask that is because if you ever get a bigger vehicle you may have a problem with it and I really hate to see you come back here because you didn’t add two more feet. And you would still be back behind everybody else, so that was the only reason I asked. Kupras: Believe me this is a first for me and stuff like that and I’ve learned a valuable lesson that if I were to buy another house which I never plan to do anyhow but I’m hoping- -one of the reasons we went into this ranch was to try to get us down from the amount of steps and like I said my wife had taken a couple of falls at the other house. We were trying to look for the right situation and we thought we thought things through but the laundry room seems to be a necessity for us at this point. Pastor: All right. Henzi: Mr. Pastor makes a good point. I mean let’s be realistic, I mean you will have to sell this house someday. Somebody else might have a truck but we can’t--I mean I need to hear it from you. Do you want us to consider an extra two feet? Fisher: Mr. Chair, bear in mind the notice only goes to 8.8 so we are going to be back another time if we-- Henzi: Got it, yeah, that is true. Your neighbors have been told you are only coming out so far. Kupras: I told both sides we were coming out ten feet and that it was going to be about approximately with their houses and they were looking at the view and they had no problem with it. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 64 July 15, 2014 Henzi: Well how important is it to you, would you rather have us table it and come back or do you want a ruling? Kupras: I feel comfortable with going ahead with this plan. Henzi: Okay. Kupras: I appreciate the input from Mr. Pastor, but if the house gets sold again it’s because I am dead and I am not going to worry about it. Henzi: Well-- Kupras: I grew up in Livonia as a child and I’m back and I want to make that my permanent home. Henzi: Okay. Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience that wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. I see no one coming forward, can you read the letters? Ms. Pat Green: I’m right here. Can I talk from here? Henzi: Yes. Green: My name is Pat Green and I’m a relatively close neighbor. And-- Henzi: What’s your address? Green: 15929 Merriman. And we are--every house along that road is of a different nature and I know from myself I am happy with my house I don’t even have a garage. And I love the main floor laundry and if she has health problems--I mean unless you want to ask your next door neighbors I would have no objection because none of us look alike. My neighbor bought a small, older woman’s house--the one to the north-- and it is setback and built a huge house where they got one of these all window sunroom kind of things and so they focus on the back. They are set back farther than we are. But I would certainly as somebody who got a letter not object and especially with both considerations and once you build something you always want to change it a little bit or you wish you did something a little differently. I guess if it were me--and I didn’t hear your last name? Kupras: It’s Kupras. Green: Kupras? Kupras: Yes. Green: Nice to meet you, Mr. Kupras. I lost my train of thought. Henzi: You said if it was you. Green: I would think if it were financially possible that you would add the extra two feet for resale and if you are already bumping the wall or not closing the door. Sterbling: The thing is he would like to do this for his wife and her health isn’t getting any better-- Green: I understand--I understand. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 64 July 15, 2014 Sterbling: We appreciate your input very much. Green: I totally agree with everything, no objection. Sterbling: It’s just about the time is it not? Kurpas: Yeah, I mean we would like to commence on this project as soon as possible. So it’s not something that we want to continue delays on. Actually we were already hoping to have it started but when the Zoning Board said we needed to come and see you than that was our next step so. Henzi: Okay. Go ahead and read the letters. Caramagno: Letters of approval from, Janet Douglas, 15991 Merriman (letter read), Michael Cuba, 31425 Myrna (letter read), and David Briggs, 16005 Merriman (letter read). Henzi: Mr. Kupras, anything you want to say in closing? Kurpas: No, thanks. Henzi: Okay, thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yes, this is not a hard decision for me. Both neighbors are set forward of this addition so it won’t affect the neighbors in my opinion whatsoever. It is well thought out, it is obviously needed due to the health of his wife, so I will be in full support. Henzi: Mr. Bowling. Bowling: I am in agreement and will support. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I am in full support. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: I am in full support. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Completely reasonable request and I will support it as well. Henzi: So will I for all those reasons. The floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Rhines supported by Sills, it was: RESOLVED:APPEAL CASE NO.2014-07-36: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Phil Kupras, 16023 Merriman, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 64 July 15, 2014 construct an addition to the front of an attached garage, resulting in deficient front yard setback. A portion of the existing garage will be converted to living area. Front Yard Setback: Required: 50.0 ft. Proposed: 41.2 ft. Deficient: 8.8 ft. The property is located on the west side of Merriman (16023) between East Myrna Ave and Five Mile, Lot No. 060-01-0603-002, RUF-A Zoning District. Rejected by the be Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 5.05 “Front Yard,” granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the medical issues of the Petitioner’s wife necessitate a first floor laundry room, and because petitioner's lot is relatively small for the neighborhood. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because of the risk of injury to the Petitioner’s wife from falling down the basement stairs. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the garage will be set back further from Merriman Road than the adjacent neighbors. 4. The Board received three letters of approval and no objection letters from neighboring property owners. 5. The property is classified as “low density residential” in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the garage be built according to the plans presented. 2. That the shingles and brick on the garage match the shingles and brick on the house. 3. That the electrical service is to be standard service. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 64 July 15, 2014 4. That this variance is good for six (6) months. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Rhines, Sills, Pastor, Bowling, Caramagno, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: None Henzi: The variance is granted. You’ve got to match the shingles and brick to the existing. You have to remain with standard electric, build it as you presented, and complete it within six months. Kupras: Thank you very much. Sterbling: Thank you. Henzi: Good luck. Sterbling: You guys are very good. Caramagno: Thanks. Sterbling: You weigh everything out very nicely. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 64 July 15, 2014 APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-07-37: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Kevin Raymond, 15962 Deering, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to remove an existing detached garage and construct a new detached garage, resulting in excess detached garage area. Garage Area: Allowed: 660 sq. ft. Proposed: 1152 sq. ft. Excess: 492 sq. ft. The property is located on the east side of Deering (15962) between Five Mile and North End, Lot No. 052-02-0055-000, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 2:10(5) “Definition of Miscellaneous Terms.” Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: I have nothing to add sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Hearing none, will the petitioner please come to the table. Good evening. Raymond: My name is Kevin Raymond. I live at 15962 Deering, Livonia, 48154. Henzi: Okay, tell us about your proposed addition and new garage. Raymond: What I would like to do is I do have an existing garage there, I don’t believe I put it in the paperwork. It’s basically a rundown garage it was built in the ‘60’s maybe the ‘70’s at the newest. What I would like to do--it is actually up to code being 20 feet from my house as it is now, I’d like to actually build it behind the existing garage where I’d like to go 24 wide and then just go 48 deep. And I do have plenty of lot space for that. And I’d like to come back through and demo the garage that is there now. I mean it is rotting away. And all my neighbors their lots are manicured and we don’t have any privacy fences or anything. And I’d like to clean my yard up basically is what I would like to do. Henzi: Is there any rhyme or reason to building first as opposed to demo one and then build? Raymond: I’ve got too much stuff. I’ve got an old muscle car, I’ve got a ’67 Fairlane in the garage. And I actually previously lived in Garden City and I’ve had a two car garage and it’s not so much the summer time it’s the winter. If I want to work on it or something like that I can’t just open the doors on the car and work on it. Let alone now with the lot I’ve got now, I’ve got a riding mower, I don’t know if it was a good idea I bought a motorcycle too. And in the winter time I can’t really afford a nice car so sometimes my car does break down and I would like to be able to kind of--some kind of room where I can possibly work on my car if I need to whether it is oil change or brakes or something like that in the winter. Where I could move stuff around and work on it at the same time. And that’s basically the only reason. And I do have like fireplaces and stuff like that where I would like to bring all my firewood into the garage as well. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 64 July 15, 2014 Henzi: Have you hired a builder? Raymond: I have not done that yet. I don’t know, I am probably--the way it has been looking a couple of the quotes I’ve gotten I’m thinking about just buying one of the packages from Menard’s which I’ve looked into and possibly just going through them and getting a contractor through them. I don’t know how good of a contractor they have. I do have a concrete guy so I’m not so much worried about that. I found out that I’m actually- -what I plan on doing with my concrete exceeds--because I plan on putting a footing in and everything for my--for the cement foundation and everything. That is the only thing I haven’t decided what to do yet was with a contractor. But I have priced everything out already. Henzi: All right, any questions for the petitioner? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: How far back from your house is this garage you don’t give me a dimension of any sort? Raymond: The existing garage is 20 from the face of the garage and it is approximately 20 deep so I’m going to do--I’d say maybe six inches beyond that so maybe 50 feet it would be from my house--the back of my house. And then I’m going to tear that garage down and leave all the concrete there and then basically just build a pad behind that garage. Once the new garage is complete, demo the old garage and then possibly bring in--I might have the cement guy do that as well--is bring in and make that all just one driveway and connect everything together. Pastor: So you plan on taking a driveway and connecting it from your existing driveway all the way back to the new garage? Raymond: Yep. Pastor: Because it does not show that on our sketch that you have here. Raymond. Yeah, and I do have--I measured it out, I know to code it’s five feet from the fence, I’m probably going to go probably six feet. Because I thought five feet was quite a bit but once I started measuring it five feet is not as much as you think. So I’m probably going to go farther than that and when I realized with the garage it’s probably going to be 48 deep it’s not going to leave me that much space and I still actually have fifty feet from the back of the garage to the privacy fence behind me. Pastor: Forty-eight foot garage, this is not a large lot. You say it is, I say it isn’t because it is only 55 feet wide, what else are you putting in this garage? I mean this is--this is an extremely large garage for the size lot you have. Raymond: Well basically the only reason I came up those dimensions was just because it was in the guidelines of it being 20 percent dwelling. And if you take the dimensions of my house and then I was going to go 24 by 36 and I go I might as well go 24 by 48. That’s basically the only reason. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 64 July 15, 2014 Pastor: If you were 36 though you would probably be a lot closer to the allowable and I’d have to do the math on that real quick--to the allowable garage area. Bowling: 864. Pastor: So you would be 200 square feet less than this. A lot of people with a garage like this will come in with a sketch saying I’m putting a car here, I’m putting a car here, I’ve got a third car here, my motorcycle, my lawn furniture, you are not giving us a lot to go on here. Raymond: That’s just--I just kind of figured with the dimensions from the Menard’s thing that I got that that was enough. I actually didn’t know that. Pastor: What type of power are you going to put in this garage? Raymond: I’m just going to go basic the 120. Pastor: You’re not putting a separate service in the garage or anything like that? Raymond: No, I mean not--I mean down the road or something I have no idea but I can’t afford that right now, I seriously can’t. Pastor: What kind of finishes are you using because I don’t believe we have much on that either? Raymond: It’s the basic siding with the garage door, the shingles, it’s included all in the one kit. Pastor: That will be all for right now. Henzi: I had a question for Mr. Banko. I can never remember the dimension, what is a half-acre in square feet? Banko: It’s like-- Henzi: Is it 11,000 or something? Banko: No, it’s like twenty some thousand. Pastor: Twenty-two-- Henzi: Oh, so it like a quarter acre? Pastor: --thousand something like that. Banko: Yeah, an acre is like 43,000, don’t quote me on that but it is around 43,000 square feet. Henzi: Yeah, that’s--okay. All right, any other questions? Bowling: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Bowling. Bowling: Just a single garage door on the front and a single pedestrian door or are you looking at-- Raymond: No, I’m just going to put a double door on the front with a standard eighteen- -I think it’s sixteen foot. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 64 July 15, 2014 Bowling: Okay. Henzi: I don’t know maybe now is the time to talk about what you really can live with. I mean to echo what Mr. Pastor said, I had the same thought. The garage you are proposing is almost as big as the house. And the lot is decent size but it is not the type of large lot that we see when somebody comes in with an acre--acre and a half and say I have to have a riding mower and I need a 1200 square foot garage. I mean could you do 24 by 36? I mean that’s kind of exactly what I thought. Raymond: Well you see the thing that I was basing it on is there is like three different houses--I didn’t really kind of pay attention to it when I first bought the house on people’s garages and everything, but there are three different people just on my street alone that even--well my neighbor has one I didn’t really want to bring her into it, but she’s even got a garage that is huge. And I just assumed I might as well just go by what the guidelines were being the 20 percent and I was within the guidelines. That was all I really based it on. And then I figured down the road--because I plan on staying there for the rest of my life really to be honest with you-- Henzi: Well that is reasonable to look at your neighbors. Raymond: Basically what I don’t want to do is I don’t want to sit there and build something and then wish I would have went deeper when I--if I could go the biggest I can go, then there is no reason to even consider building on the back or you know--if I get older and I might think about putting a wood shop or something in the back you never know. That’s the main reason why I’m doing it. Henzi: Okay, I appreciate that. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: What neighbor are you referring to that has a big garage? Raymond: It would be-- Pastor: The one to the north? Raymond: Yes. Pastor: So--but they have at least twice maybe three times the lot-- Raymond: Yes, but they also have--but it is also probably twice as high as what I am asking for as well. Pastor: You know I didn’t look in their backyard very closely. Raymond: Yeah, it is a good size. Pastor: What other neighbor are you telling us has a garage as big as this? Raymond: The first--what is it--the first or second house right coming down the sub, they have a pole barn with a live in apartment on the back of it. And then there’s one that is probably half way down the street on the--oh what would he be on the west side-- Pastor: Are you saying these are all bigger lot--houses than what you have? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 56 of 64 July 15, 2014 Raymond: Oh, yeah, I mean even the garages are--they may have a little bit bigger lot-- like the one guy I know he doesn’t have a bigger lot than I do and the garage is bigger than his house, it’s got to be. The garage is huge and it is up to the date so it can’t be more than ten years old. It’s a nice garage, I’m going to be honest with you it’s all brick and everything. Pastor: Well to tell you the truth I’ve been on this Board for almost ten years and I don’t remember approval of a garage. Raymond: Oh, you’ll see it, you drive down there he’s got the gates open and everything. It’s a nice garage. Henzi: What side of the street is it on, do you know? Raymond: The garage I am talking about? Henzi: Yeah. Raymond: It would be on the west side of the street, he’s about I’d say ten houses in. Dual garage doors, glass block windows, everything. And that’s just the ones I noticed, I haven’t been--you know I don’t go in everybody’s backyards. Pastor: Well back to Mr. Henzi’s point, what can you live with because me I can’t approve this big of a garage on this size of a lot. I believe Mr. Henzi was kind of hinting towards the same thing. So if you want to finish tonight you are going to have to tell us what you can actually live with because there are other Board members here that can overrule myself and whomever but I think you need to-- Raymond: As much as I can get I will be happy with. Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: I’ll echo the sentiment there as a matter of fact maybe even a little bit more strict. You know I believe that you own the house, you pay taxes on it, and I’d like you to be able to do what you want with it I’d like you to come back with a more concrete plan. I’d like to table it, I’d like to not have an answer tonight. I’d like to see you maybe pick a package--you know--since--I hate granting a variance for that much of an excess without even knowing what you plan to put there, exactly what materials are on it, just an open variance to go do whatever you want with that amount. I’d rather table it and see you come back with more concrete plans and it will give you a chance to draw on there I want to put one car here, this here, my lawnmower here, and maybe you will get approved for what you are asking for instead of the smaller one. Raymond: Can I explain why I did that. I kind of did that to make sure that I could afford the certain dimensions of the garage before I come in here and waste everybody’s time and I find out that I cannot build something 24 by 48 or afford the garage package. That’s the only way--that’s the only reason I kind of did it in the vague way I did was to just to make sure I could afford it instead of wasting everybody’s time is basically why I did it that way. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 57 of 64 July 15, 2014 Rhines: Yeah, I’d like to see us table it and have us work on the plans a little more and maybe get the 24 by 48. I’d like to see you get what--be able to do what you want as long as you justify the--you know--the certain requirements we have too, like the uniqueness of your situation that--you know--creates a need for a larger garage. And what severe consequences you might face if you are not granted--you know some of those things. And also we can talk about the type of siding you are going to use, it is going to match the house, the shingles. It’s hard to have that conversation right now because we don’t even know exactly what you are planning to build. So I’d like to table it and it gives you a chance to come up with more plans and it doesn’t--my understanding it doesn’t cost you anything to return at that point and time it just gives you a chance to reformulate your plan. Would that be something that you would be open to if we voted on that? Raymond: I mean basically what’s that mean, you guys approve it or deny it? And if I come back with better plans than it would be approved? Henzi: That means it is put on hold and you tell us when you want to come back. So the th next meeting would be August 12. Raymond: And then if I just decided to say hey instead of going the 24 by 48 I just settle and said I go less square footage and then I wouldn’t have to come back? Henzi: That is only if you put up a 660 square feet garage. If you wanted more than that you have to come back to the Board. Raymond: No matter what? Henzi: Yes. Raymond: Okay. Henzi: Are you finished. Rhines: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: Just to clarify what I also think you were asking there is if--you know I was just asking if you would be open to the tabling idea. There was also other previous conversation that there might be support on--of some members of this Board to grant a variance of a smaller size garage, now 36 instead of 48. There might be enough support on the Board to walk away with that variance right now. All I was saying in my question was that you might not have my vote for that one but you might not need it but I was asking if you would be open to idea of you know walking away today, reformulate your plans--you know maybe say hey I want this exact package with this exact siding. These are all the reasons I need it. And maybe when you come back you can get that 48. It doesn’t sound like there is enough support on the Board to get the 48 today so it sounds like the best you might be hoping for is to get the 36 foot deep one today. My question to you was would you be interested in tabling this for now, coming back with some different ideas and a little bit more concrete plan and maybe get the 48 when you come back, maybe not. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 58 of 64 July 15, 2014 Raymond: I mean the--I guess I could go 36, I just basically was just going by what I was told by--you know--the building department that you can get 20 percent dwelling and I was just going for the maximum because I only want to build a garage once. Rhines: When you say 20 percent dwelling, can--what do you mean by that? Raymond: You can only have 20 percent dwelling on your--on your lot size. Fisher: Sir, in his zoning district you can have up to 20 percent lot coverage. That is what he is referring to. Rhines: Okay. Fisher: That is an independent requirement from the garage area limit that we are bumping up against here. Rhines: Okay. So since the house is smaller, within that limit the garage can be larger? Fisher: Yes. Rhines: Okay. Thank you, I wasn’t sure what that was. So I’m not guaranteeing or obviously I can’t guarantee that you would get the variance today for the 36 foot deep. So just to clarify, my question was would you entertain the idea of tabling it and coming back at a later point? Henzi: To the petitioner, Mr. Raymond. That house sets about ten houses in I believe is 15525 Deering. And in 2001 when none of us were on the Board there was a variance granted and the petitioner asked for 1200 square feet and received 920. And that guy has a lot twice as wide as yours. Raymond: Really? Because that thing looks--it looks like a pretty big sized garage, it does. But it’s more--mine I’m going basically width--like width and then length, that’s more wide. Henzi: He wound up getting--I don’t know it looks like it was 24 wide. So would that be 24 by 40? In any event, that is just for your edification. I wouldn’t expect you to know how to come in but like Mr. Pastor said a lot of times people have been dreaming about their dream garage. They tell us where the motorcycle is going to go, where the riding lawn mower is going to go, they have all these plans. And sometimes people come in and say I’m asking for the most I can think of because I don’t know what else to say, but that’s just for your information. I mean 920 is what a big lot on your street got and that’s more in line with 24 by 36 that is where I was coming from. So, any other questions? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Just so he understand where I am at with it too. I would be hard pressed to approve a garage as big as a house. Okay, the garages that you were talking about and Mr. Henzi looked up I know which one you are talking about it is a beautiful garage on the left hand side on the way down. The other one closer to Five Mile that garage has been there-- Raymond: Yeah, it looks older. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 59 of 64 July 15, 2014 Caramagno: --since Five Mile has been dirt I have to believe. I know what you are talking about it. It is old, it doesn’t have much bearing on tonight’s conversation. A garage 1100 to 1200 square feet on your lot you can draw whatever you want on the thing and come back and it is not going to fly with me. So, I am looking for a smaller garage on that lot. Henzi: Anything else? There is no one in the audience that wants to speak for or against, is there? Put you on the spot. Raymond: Smart--smart guy. Otherwise he is going to be finding a ride home. Henzi: Any letters? Caramagno: Letters of approval from Thomas Wilson, 15905 Foch Street (letter read) and Patricia and Paul Celusta, 15970 Deering (letter read). Henzi: Mr. Raymond, anything you want to say in closing? Raymond: No. Henzi: Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Bowling. Bowling: I think I echo the same as Mr. Rhines about the possibility of either tabling or looking at a smaller garage that would make sense. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I would go along with a tabling resolution. Henzi: Mr. Rhines. Rhines: Yeah, on behalf of Livonia it sounds according to your neighbors you are a good neighbor and I’m glad you are here--I’m glad you chose to move here, and welcome you to Livonia. And I‘d like to see you do what you want with the property but you’ve got to prove some unique requirements and how there would be a hardship if it was denied and why it’s fair in the neighborhood. So there are a few things that we have to prove to grant the variance so I would be in support of a tabling resolution which allows you to work out a few more of the details and come back at no extra cost. Raymond: Would I be able to do the 24 by 36 and get that approved today, instead of just going the 48 deep? And that would save me a trip back here and I get started on the garage. Is that possible? Pastor: Can we finish with our comments? Henzi: Yeah, we will go around and them we will-- Raymond: Okay. Henzi: Is that all right? Raymond: Yeah, I’m fine with it. Henzi: Mr. Rhines are you finished? Rhines: Yes. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 60 of 64 July 15, 2014 Caramagno: I mean I think there is a garage that needs to be put up here and the old one needs to be taken down. So tabled or negotiated deal here tonight. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I believe you need a new garage. I cannot approve anything near this size. Like Mr. Rhines I suggest tabling so we can see where the concrete is coming from, going to, you doing a full approach on your driveway. You’ve got yellow siding or whatever the colors are. Our job here is to make sure our subdivisions stay somewhat harmonious. And that is why we ask for these things. Raymond: I just--what I have is a typical ranch which is white siding and I’m just putting a white siding garage up with the shingles to match and everything else. Pastor: I can’t approve something that I cannot see. Raymond: Okay. Pastor: I don’t know what I don’t know. Raymond: Okay. Pastor: Okay, and that’s at this point I would actually offer to make a tabling motion but we can hear from Mr. Henzi. Henzi: Yeah, I agree with Mr. Pastor it is really helpful to see the plans. We--that is kind of standard protocol. And you know we’ve talked about things that we would like and I will tell you I for one would grant probably 24 by 36 that’s 864. But then like Mr. Pastor said we will want to see a drawing with what the driveway is going to look like, if you get pictures of the siding you are going to use or if you just say white that is fine by me. The garage door, all that kind of stuff will help. So take it away. Upon Motion by Pastor supported by Sills, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-07-37: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Kevin Raymond, 15962 Deering, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to remove an existing detached garage and construct a new detached garage, resulting in excess detached garage area. Garage Area: Allowed: 660 sq. ft. Proposed: 1152 sq. ft. Excess: 492 sq. ft. The property is located on the east side of Deering (15962) between Five Mile and North End, Lot No. 052-02-0055-000, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 2:10(5) “Definition of be tabled to allow petitioner an opportunity to take the Miscellaneous Terms,” City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 61 of 64 July 15, 2014 Board’s comments into consideration and bring a more specific building plan to the next meeting. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Sills, Bowling, Rhines, Caramagno, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: None th Henzi: So Mr. Raymond the next meeting is August 12, there is actually lots of openings. But you have to call and ask to be scheduled by Friday. Raymond: This coming Friday? th Henzi: Yeah, by the 18. Raymond: Okay. th Henzi: So you call the ZBA office and ask for Marilyn and say I want to get in on the 18. Raymond Okay. Henzi: And then like we talked about she will coordinate with you to get your new packet in, you can change whatever you would like us to take into consideration what everyone said. Raymond: Okay. So I should probably update the prints and everything like that and basically go with a 24 by 36 then would be ideal. Henzi: Yeah, well for me anyway. Raymond: Okay. Sills: You may want to go 24 by 42. Henzi: Yeah, but be able to back it up I think was really was the meaning. But that is key to have everything in by Friday. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 62 of 64 July 15, 2014 Raymond: Okay. Henzi: Because if you don’t you can’t get on until-- Raymond: September probably. th Henzi: No August 26. Raymond: Okay, yeah because like I said I would like to try and get this done as soon as possible so I will be back in here. Henzi: Okay, thanks. Raymond: All right, thank you. Rhines: Yeah, thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 63 of 64 July 15, 2014 Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor . rd Pastor: We’ve got minutes to approve of June 3. Henzi: Is there support? Caramagno: Was I here? Pastor: Yeah. Caramagno: Support. Motion by Pastor, supported by Caramagno to approve the minutes of June 3, 2014. Pastor: I make a motion to adjourn. Caramagno: Support. There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned at 9:30 p.m. __________________________ SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary ___________________________ MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman /pcb City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 64 of 64 July 15, 2014