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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPLANNING MINUTES 2012-10-09MINUTES OF THE 1,031 ST PUBLIC HEARINGS AND REGULAR MEETING HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA On Tuesday, October 9, 2012, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its 1,031" Public Hearings and Regular Meeting in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan. Mr. Lee Morrow, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. Members present: Scott P. Bahr Ashley V. Krueger R. Lee Morrow Lynda L. Scheel Carol A. Smiley Gerald Taylor Ian Wilshaw Members absent: None Mr. Mark Taormina, Planning Director, and Ms. Margie Watson, Program Supervisor, were also present. Chairman Morrow informed the audience that if a petition on lonighfs agenda involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the City Council who, in tum, will hold its own public hearing and make the final determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If a petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the petitioner has len days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become effective seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission and the professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their fling. The staff has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying resolutions, which the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the outcome of the proceedings tonight. ITEM #1 PETITION 2012-09-02-18 TARGET Ms. Scheel, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Petition 2012-09- 02-18 submitted by Target Corporation requesting to amend Council Resolution #557-05 adopted on November 30, 2005, in order to extend the Target store operating hours at Wonderland Village (Store #2230) at 29451 Plymouth Road, located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middlebell Road and Milburn Avenue in the Northeast 1/4 of Section 35, from 12:00 a.m. midnight through 6:00 a.m. on Friday, November 23, 2012 October 9, 2012 25311 (the day after Thanksgiving), and for each subsequent year beginning at midnight of Thanksgiving Day. Mr. Taormina: This is a request to extend the store operating hours for the Target store which is located at Wonderland Village on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middlebelt Road and Milburn Avenue. On November 30, 2005, Target received its waiver use approval to construct a new store at this location. The development was approved with a condition that limited the hours of operation from 6:00 a.m. to 12:00 a.m. midnight. The petitioner is now requesting your approval to modify that requirement in order to allow the store to remain open between the hours of 12:00 a.m. midnight and 6:00 a.m. on one day only, which is the Fnday following Thanksgiving, and which represents the busiest shopping day of the year. All other conditions of the waiver use approval, including truck delivery operations, would remain unchanged. Thank you. Mr. Morrow: Mr. Taormina, our approval would mean that it would go forward to the City Council to make the final determination? Mr. Taormina: That is correct. Mr. Morrow: Thankyou. Is there any correspondence? Mr. Taormina: There are four items of correspondence. The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated September 29, 2012, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above-referenced request of Target Corporation to have extended operating hours the day after the Thanksgiving Holiday. This request will have no impact on any roadways or utilities under the purview of the Engineering Division of Public Works, and hence we have no objection to this request." The letter is signed by Kevin G. Roney, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The second letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated September 21, 2012, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the plans for approving this petition to extend store operating hours from 12.00 a.m. midnight through 6.00 a.m. on Friday, November-23, 2012 (the day after Thanksgiving), and for each subsequent year beginning at midnight of Thanksgiving Day at the above referenced address. 1 have no objections to this proposal." The letter is signed by Earl W. Fester, Fire Marshal. The third letter is from the Division of Police, dated September 19, 2012, which reads as follows: "Large crowds often accompany this shopping day. It is typical for lines to begin forming well prior to the opening of the store. It has been our experience that a police presence at these events helps to ensure a safe and positive October 9, 2012 25312 experience for everyone. If Target's request is approved by Council, we would recommend that a police reserve detail be mandated, with costs being reimbursed to the city. It has been our experience that this shopping day attracts a significantly larger crowd than the norm. Ol icer Keith Schoen of the Police Department's Community Services section will provide Target with the times and number of officers necessary for this event." The letter is signed by John Gibbs, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The fourth letter is from the Inspection Department, dated September 26, 2012, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the above -referenced petition has been reviewed. This Department has no objections to this pefition." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Assistant Director of Inspection. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. Morrow: Are there any questions for the staff? Seeing none, is the petitioner here this evening? We will need your name and address for the record please. Keith Bartlett, 11120 Haller, Livonia, Michigan 48150. Mr. Morrow: Mr. Bartlett, would you like to give us a reason for the request? Mr. Bartlett: The reason for the request is there is a significantly larger guest crowd that comes the day after Thanksgiving. For example, last year, we opened at 4:00 a.m. and not 12:00 a.m. We had a crowd that started around 6:00 p.m. that was roughly around 50, that grew to over 250 to 300 guests that stood outside wailing for the 4:00 a.m. mark. As an executive for Target and also as a citizen of Livonia, I hear all the time how our citizens love to shop at Target, especially at that time. So again, as you heard before, we do have partnerships with the Livonia Police Department and Fire Department for safely. We also employ our asset protection units to make sure that the crowd is orderly and safe at all time. And we do give back tremendously to the community. Ms. Smiley: Do you have specials that start at midnight? Are you trying to stagger your group when they arrive? Mr. Bartlett: We do have specials that happen at midnight. They're called our Black Friday specials. All of our competitors do the same. What I think we do differently than our competitors is we have crowd control training that all of our executives go through, and we do stagger as they come in at fifteen minute intervals. So we don't have that rush of crowd that comes through. We stagger our guests as they come in to control the crowd. October 9, 2012 25313 Ms. Smiley: Okay. Now, would you be closed Thursday and open up at midnight? Mr. Bartlett: Thursday all day, and then open up at midnight. Ms. Smiley: Thankyou. Ms. Krueger: I'm just curious to know what difference being open at midnight is going to make. I mean you're still going to gel a crowd wailing for the store to open, aren't you? Mr. Bartlett: We won't gel as significant a crowd that we would have at midnight. Slaying competitive with our competitors, the crowd wants the sale that we open up at 12:00 a.m. Last year, for example, we didn't open and our sales dropped tremendously. We were projected to do around $750,000; we only did $400,000. That also affects the ability to continue to service our community. Ms. Kruger: So essentially, you just want the longer hours so that you can remain competitive? Mr. Bartlett: Not just that. We want to do what's right for the community also. And again, I am part of this community and I'm the face of Target because I live in the community. I work at this location. I actually live right across the street. So when my neighbors come and say, hey, what's going on? How come you're not opening? I have to give them an answer. Ms. Kruger: Okay. Mr. Bartlett: Its serving the community just with different competitors that open up on that Black Friday. Ms. Kruger: Okay, but you're still going to have the same number of people lining up, just earlier? Mr. Bartlett: That's what we had Iasi year because they thought we opened at 12:00 a.m. Ms. Kruger: Oh. Okay. Mr. Bartlett: It was put on our advertisements that all Targets were opened at 12:00 a.m., and that is what drew the crowd and they were silting there. Imagine the disappointment when we had to tell them that we can't open. Ms. Kruger: What limes do the other Target stores in Livonia open? October 9, 2012 25314 Mr. Bartlett: The one located at west Livonia, at Eight Mile and Haggerty, that opened at 12:00 a.m. last year. The one in Dearborn opened at 12:00 a.m. We were the only location that was not allowed to open at 12:00 a.m. Ms. Kruger: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Taylor: Sir, we had Walmarl in not loo long ago and one of their arguments was that they could lel the people in the store so they didn't have to line up. They thought it was a much safer situation, which I intend to agree with them on that. Your people are going to line up outside, you say? Mr. Bartlett: Our guests will line up outside, yes. We don't have the space that Walmart has in their vestibule to line individuals up. We do not have that facility, and that's why we go through what we call crowd management to make sure we lake care of our guests on the outside. Mr. Taylor: So your doors are going to open at midnight if you gel approved, but the people are going to line up outside? Mr. Bartlett: Correct. Mr. Taylor: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Bahr: I guess I need more clarification on that. I'm sure you've covered this already. So you're going to open up at midnight, but you're going to keep people outside the store and bring them in like in certain amounts? What keeps people lining up outside once you open up? Mr. Bartlett: Our crowd management practices. What we do is line everybody up. We have help from the Livonia Police Department and also our asset protection. What we do is, we give coffee. We make sure they're all right. We give them a map of the store. As our guests come and the people come, we just line them up in an orderly fashion and tell them our procedure of doing it so they know way beforehand, the 12:00 mark, how we're going to do it. Mr. Bahr: So that was the fifteen minute intervals you were talking about earlier? Mr. Bartlett: Yes. October 9, 2012 25315 Mr. Bahr: Okay. I think that's one of the key differences with Walmart. With Walmart, people are going to be able to continuously shop and they had certain times when they were turning on the sales for specific items, but people were able to mingle throughout the store. But you guys are actually queuing them up outside. Mr. Bartlett: Right. I'm very familiar with my competitor and opening up their store and having people shop. I can only speak to last year. Last year they did the same thing and they had individuals in their store shopping until 12:00 when they were supposed to close, and then they just kept them in the store and then brought merchandise out the back. We feel that is misleading to our community and our guests, and it could be an unsafe practice. Mr. Bahr: What is your experience with noise levels with them being outside? Mr. Bartlett: Very minimal simply because we slay engaged with our guests. Again, we feed them coffee. We try to keep them orderly. We move people out of the parking lot to the side and we do have the Livonia Police there assisting that. I went through last year about 11:30 and saw the crowd there. It was a very minimum noise level. We do have people that are standing there, but with our practices and with the support of the Livonia Police Department, it is controlled. And we knew about the noise ordinance and we dont want to disturb anything like that. Mr. Bahr: Okay. I'm all set. Mr. Wilshaw: You said that last year because your guests were not aware that you didn't open until you said 4:00 a.m. I think it was last year? Mr. Bartlett: Right. Mr. Wilshaw: People showed up around midnight and then waited for the four hours or so. Mr. Bartlett No, they showed up before midnight. Mr. Wilshaw: Before midnight? Mr. Bartlett Yes. Mr. Wilshaw: Then they waited this whole time, and this crowd swelled from 50 some people up to 250 or 300 people, right? Mr. Bartlett And not everybody stayed. They left that were out there. Yes. October 9, 2012 25316 Mr. Wilshaw: If you were to open at midnight this year, if we approve this, do you anticipate that you're going to have as large a crowd that you had last year at your opening time, or do you think it will be smaller because people will be able to manage their time a little better? Mr. Bartlett: I think there would be approximately the same amount of crowd. We're hoping that it will be the same. Again, there would not be the disappointment of having the national advertisement out there and we're not able to do it. People really read to the national advertisement and the advertisement doesn't say "Livonia does not open a14." Mr. Wilshaw: The other thing I want to understand a little bit how you differ from Walmart. Walmart, as they explain it to us, have continuous sales throughout the day on various merchandise, but they have certain items that are hot buys that really at and people to want to gel there and line up and try to gel this, I'll say the $100 TV or whatever it may be. They try to stagger those throughout the evening so that not everyone is piling in at one time to gel all these great deals. Do you do something like that or is your business model completely different? Mr. Bartlett: Our business model is different. When we open up at 12:00, if you guys approve it, it will be all of our hot deals at that same time. I understand what Walmart is doing. They're saying they're staggering. For instance, last year they had everybody move to the vestibule at 12:00 and they kept them there until 4:00. They will do different deals with the hot items. That $100 TV that you're talking about came out at 4:00, and then that created a mass rush through the store running to gel those TVs. I was there. I saw what happened. I was very grateful that we had a partnership with the Livonia Police Department and we did our practices because, yes, the customers and the guests are going to slay out there and they're going to wait. I understand they'll do the intervals, but the guests are really there for the hot, hot buys for that $100 TV. We also have a map that guides them through the store. So it's not that mad rush that we've heard and I've seen Walmart have. Mr. Wilshaw: Ok. So its not like a scavenger hunt through the store to try and find it. You've told them what section of the store. Mr. Bartlett: We give them a map and say this is where your hot items are. This is here. We also have what we call team members at those locations so they can guide them. We just have, I think, a better orderly fashion and we dont end up in the news. October 9, 2012 25317 Mr. Wilshaw: I think that certainly your idea of letting in groups of people as opposed to open the doors and let them all in at once certainly helps with controlling that chaos of the shoppers, so I appreciate that concept. Thank you. Mr. Bahr: One more question. With your experience Iasi year, I think you said the crowd grew to about 300 or so, but once you open the doors and once you gel that flow going with your practices, what is your experience as far as how large that crowd is? Does it slay at that level or what's the equilibrium if you will? Mr. Bartlett: It does not stay at that level. It kind of evens out throughout the whole day. We're busy that whole entire day. Its our busiest day that we have. I think that the mad rush for those hot deals, the $100 TV, is their first impulse. And the customers do the same thing. They go from store to store trying to get that hot buy. But we differ in merchandise. I think everybody has a hot, hot electronic item that everybody wants, whether it's a TV or an Xbox. So that's the first initial rush, and then after that, we just have a steady stream of individuals. Again, sales -wise, we project to do anywhere between $600,000 to $800,000. Last year with the interruption, it wasn't there. Mr. Bahr: Thanks. Mr. Morrow: Anything else? I guess my only comment or question would be, is this practice pretty much universal at all Target stores across the county? Mr. Bartlett: The crowd management practice? Mr. Morrow: No, the hours, the midnight opening. Mr. Bartlett: Yes, it is universal throughout the nation. We gel it from our company, what times we should open. Last year was the first year we did that, and then when we did that, it went national. The advertisement went national. And then a week before, we got a visit from you guys and said no. Mr. Morrow: How many other stores are restricted not to open at midnight? Mr. Bartlett: In Michigan or nationwide? Mr. Morrow: Across the country. Mr. Bartlett: Last year there were 67 stores nationwide that had a restriction that we had to petition the City Council. I don't know the results October 9, 2012 25318 of what came from it. This is our result here, but I do know it was 67 stores throughout the nation that had an ordinance that our headquarters started reacting to. And we had things in place. Like all the information we got from you guys last year, I had to send it to our headquarters in Minnesota, and then they started pulling things in place so we could be in this position right now this year. Mr. Morrow: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Taylor: We were questioned before when Walmart was before us about deliveries. The people at the rear of that building are always upset by deliveries. Are there going to be any early deliveries there? Mr. Bartlett: We cut all deliveries off on Wednesday before Thanksgiving. They don't come back in until Monday. Mr. Taylor: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Morrow: If there are no other questions or comments, I'm going to go to the audience. If you would just step aside for the moment, we may call you back. Mr. Bartlett Okay. Mr. Morrow: Is there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak for or against the granting of this petition? This is your opportunity to come forward at either podium. I see no one coming forward. I will close the public hearing and ask for a motion. Mr. Taylor: Mr. Chairman, I'm not ready to make a motion, but in watching the City Council a week or two ago, they had two or three resolutions prepared. They have mixed emotions about the other stores that we're talking about opening up at midnight. I thought that Councilman McCann had a good idea in the fad that if it is approved, that rather than have it as it reads here, "and for each subsequent year thereafter commencing at midnight of Thanksgiving Day and ending at midnight on Friday" - in other words, they could do it every year. He has asked that we try it for one year in his resolution. Now, I don't know what's going to pass, whether it will or not, but I think that's a good idea that I heard, and I would hope that whoever makes the resolution could possibly eliminate "for each subsequent year." I would support it then. Thank you. Mr. Morrow: Is there anyone who would like to make a motion? October 9, 2012 25319 On a motion by Bahr, seconded by Scheel, and unanimously adopted, it was #10-83-2012 RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on October 9, 2012, on Petition 2012-09-02-18 submitted by Target Corporation requesting to amend Council Resolution #557-05 adopted on November 30, 2005, in order to extend the Target store operating hours at Wonderland Village (Store #2230) at 29451 Plymouth Road, located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middlebell Road and Milburn Avenue in the Northeast 1/4 of Section 35, from 12:00 a.m. midnight through 6:00 a.m. on Friday, November 23, 2012 (the day after Thanksgiving), and for each subsequent year beginning at midnight of Thanksgiving Day, which properly is zoned G2, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 2012- 09-02-18, as amended, be approved subject to the following conditions: 1. That condition #19 of Council Resolution #557-05 which reads, 'The hours the store is open to the public shall be limited to the time period between 6.00 a.m. and 12:00 midnight'shall be modified to include the following; Except that the Target store at 29451 Plymouth Road shall be permitted to extend its operating hours one (1) day out of the year from 12:00 a.m. midnight through 6:00 a.m. on Friday, November 23, 2012 (the day after Thanksgiving) only, commencing at midnight of Thanksgiving Day and ending at midnight on Friday the day after Thanksgiving, and the Council may consider this matter again in 2013 upon the subsequent request of the Petitioner; 2. That the Petitioner will work with the City Inspection and Public Safely Departments to make sure that appropriate safety measures are put in place to accommodate the additional store operating hours; and 3. That all other conditions imposed by Council Resolution #557-05, which granted approval to construct a new Target store containing a gross floor area in excess of 30,000 square feel, shall remain in effect to the extent that they are not in conflict with the foregoing conditions. Subject to the preceding conditions, this petition is approved for the following reasons: Mr. Wilshaw: Its forjusl one year Mr. Taormina: Yes. And absent any language to the contrary, I would view that as being a requirement that they would have to come back next year and go back through the entire public hearing process. If that's not your intent, if you would rather have the Council determine whether or not they should continue the hours next year without going through a public hearing, then I think you need to specify that, and we can provide that language similar to what we've done forlhe other petitioners. October 9, 2012 25320 1. That by allowing Target to stay open an additional six (6) hours on the busiest shopping day of the year is in the best interests of the public including public safety, and 2. That all other conditions of the waiver use approval, including truck delivery limitations, would remain unchanged. FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. Mr. Morrow: Is there any discussion? Mr. Taylor: Just one question through the Chair to Mark Taormina. Mark, I know that if this passes and if the Council passes this, that means that they would have to come back the following year in order to do this again if it works. Is that right? Mr. Taormina: As this resolution has been offered, I would say the answer to that is yes, absent some clarifying language that would either direct them to the Council or back to the Planning Commission only for that reconsideration. I will tell you that in the case of the other petitions that the Council will take up tomorrow evening, we have provided them language that would require those petitions, as part of that alternative resolution that the Chair spoke of, that they would have to go back to the Council for consideration of any future sales. It was acceptable for this year only with any subsequent approvals being approved by the City Council, thereby avoiding the need to go through this public hearing process all over again. Mr. Taylor: I have no problem with that. Thank you. Mr. Morrow: Let's make sure I understand it. How is the resolution related to this one year? Mr. Wilshaw: Its forjusl one year Mr. Taormina: Yes. And absent any language to the contrary, I would view that as being a requirement that they would have to come back next year and go back through the entire public hearing process. If that's not your intent, if you would rather have the Council determine whether or not they should continue the hours next year without going through a public hearing, then I think you need to specify that, and we can provide that language similar to what we've done forlhe other petitioners. October 9, 2012 25321 Mr. Bahr: I'm comfortable with that, with it going straight to the Council, if you could provide that language. Mr. Morrow: So that we don't have to go through it again. Ms. Scheel: In subsequent years. I'm good with that too. Mr. Morrow: I can live with that. I dont think there will be any problems, but just in case. If there's no more discussion, roll call. Mr. Morrow, Chaiman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM #2 PETITION 2012-09-02-19 KROGER Ms. Scheel, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2012- 09-02-19 submitted by Landplan Engineering, P.A., on behalf of The Kroger Company, requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 11.03(a) of the City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended, to construct a gas station on a portion of the Northridge Commons shopping center at 33523 Eight Mile Road, located on the south side of Eight Mile Road between Farmington Road and Gill Road in the Northeast 1/4 of Section 4. Mr. Taormina: This is a request to construct a new fueling station at the Northridge Commons shopping center located on the south side of Eight Mile Road between Farmington Road and Gill Road. Northridge Commons is classified as a community shopping center. It contains roughly 120,000 square feet gross leasable area. It is anchored by a Kroger store, which occupies about 40 percent of the total floor area at 48,000 square feet. There are roughly 38 additional units provided at the center, many of which are currently vacant. The property altogether is about 14.4 acres. The site does include two outlets, an Arby's Restaurant and a bank, both situated on the north and east sections of the property. Gas stations are treated as a waiver use under Section 11.03(a) of the Zoning Ordinance. This proposed gas station would conform to all of the special requirements and regulations specified under this section of the code. The gas station would occupy an area measuring about 156 feel along Eight Mile Road by a depth of 180 feet, for a total land area of about 28,000 square feel or 0.64 acres. About 55 parking spaces would have to be eliminated to make room for the proposed fueling facility. The area is about 180 feel east of October 9, 2012 25322 the northeast corner of the L-shaped shopping center. The Kroger store sits on the western portion of the complex. There is a large parking area provided for both Kroger and all the other tenants of the shopping center. The access to the fuel pumps would be available via connections with the shopping centers existing driveways and drive aisles. Parking for the overall shopping center is computed at a ratio of one space for every 150 square feet of useable floor area. The center currently provides about 771 parking spaces. They are required to have 653. If we eliminate the 55 spaces that would be consumed by the proposed fueling facility, that would still provide them with a surplus of about 63 spaces overall. So parking is not a concern in terms of the overall numbers. The new gas station would have a total of five gas pumps with the ability to accommodate a total of 10 vehicles. The facility would be open to the general public; however, Kroger customers do earn points depending on how much they shop, and that allows them to purchase the gas at a discounted price. There would be a small transaction kiosk about 198 square feel in size. It would be constructed out of brick to match the existing Kroger store and building. It is our understanding that there are one or two employees that occupy the building, and customers can buy a limited selection of merohandise through the teller window. They don't actually enter the kiosk. All the transactions occur from a window outside. Covering the fuel dispensers would be an overhead canopy. That canopy is about 43 feel in width by 92 feel in length and has an overall height of 19 feel. The ordinance does limit the height of canopies to 18 feel. If the petitioner is unwilling to lower the height of the canopy by one fool, it would require the approval of the Zoning Board of Appeals if this moves forward. Al the closest point, the proposed canopy would be about 73 feel from the right-of-way of Eight Mile Road. The ordinance requires a minimum setback of 10 feel. So it is set back substantially greater than what the ordinance requires. The metal support columns would be clad in brick at the base. Lastly, in terms of signage, they are permitted one ground sign with a maximum of 40 square feet in area and 12 feel in height. It must have a setback of at least five feet from the right-of-way line. As far as wall signs are concerned, they can be building - mounted and/or on the canopy fascia with a combined area no greater than 100 square feet. Kroger is proposing signs on all four sides of the canopy as well as a portion of the kiosk. In the left hand comer of the canopy fascia is a logo as well as an identification sign for Kroger. That same signage would appear on the west elevation facing the store. The total area of those signs is 10 square feel each, and then on the north and south sides of the fascia, one facing Eight Mile Road and the other one facing the other part of the shopping center, they only have October 9, 2012 25323 the logo. They don't include the Kroger identification, just the smaller logo which is only about six square feet. There is a price sign shown on the west elevation facing the store. That's about 30 square feel. When you add that with the small logo on the kiosk, that comes to 83 square feel. They are below the signage requirement for walls. As far as a ground sign, they are showing a monument sign. This sign is about seven and half feet in overall height, eight feel maximum and within the 40 square fool area requirement. We dont have information on the setback, but I don't think it's an issue as far as meeting the minimum five fool setback. The good news about this sign is that it replaces the existing nonconforming pylon sign that is at the center. We expect at some time in the future we'll be looking at additional signage for the other tenants in the shopping center, but this addresses only Kroger at this time, and it does remove the other larger monument sign. With that, I'll read out the correspondence that we have. Mr. Morrow: Yes, please Mr. Taormina: There are four items of correspondence. The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated September 21, 2012, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above -referenced waiver use approval request. The written legal description provided is comect. The addresses assigned to the Northridge Commons Retail Plaza are confirmed to be in the range of 33523 thru 33751 Eight Mile Road. If this project proceeds and the proposed fueling area is split off into its own parcel, an address will be assigned at that time. The petitioner is hereby notified (via copy of this correspondence) that any site changes which would impact public utilities, road right-of-way, easements, or changes in storm or sanitary sewer volumes must be approved by the Engineering Division of Public Works. Should this project proceed, it is important that the developer's architect/engineer address storm water drainage changes as a result of these site changes, to ensure that then= is no negative drainage impact to any property. Storm water treatment/detention is required for this project." The letter is signed by Kevin G. Roney, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The second letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated September 21, 2012, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the plans for approval to construct a gas station on a portion of the Northridge Commons shopping center at the above referenced address. 1 have no objections to this proposal." The letter is signed by Ead W. Fesler, Fire Marshal. The third letter is from the Division of Police, dated September 20, 2012, which reads as follows: "7 have reviewed the plans in connection with the petition. 1 have October 9, 2012 25324 no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by John Gibbs, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next item is a letter from a resident, dated October 1, 2012, which reads as follows: !Approximately a week and a half ago, residents in the On The Pond Condominium community received notice of a public hearing scheduled for October 9, 2012. This notice stated that Kroger and Landplan Engineering, P.A. want to amend Zoning Ordinance #543 and construct a gas station within the Northridge Commons shopping center, next to Arby's, at 33523 Eight Mile Road. 1 have been a voting resident of Livonia for the past eight years. 1 own the condominium property at 33739 Pondview Circle which is part of the On The Pond Condominium community located directly behind the Northridge Commons shopping center. Our property entrance, Pondview Circle, is on Eight Mile Road just west of that shopping center. Many property owners in our community are against the plan to amend the zoning ordinance in order to construct a Kroger gas station on the Northridge Commons property. Many in our community think that it would make far more sense not to amend the zoning ordinance and, if the property is available, have Kroger build their gas station on the vacant lot at the southwest comer of Eight Mile and Farmington. Until recently, there had been an Amoco Gas Station at this comer. We feel that building a gas station at the comer of Eight Mile and Farmington would make far more sense since it had previously been zoned for a gas station. That location has much more visibility because it is on the comer of a busy intersection. We feel that the Livonia City Council Members and the City Planning Commission need to be aware that many residents in our community are not in favor of amending the zoning ordinance. We have been gathering signatures for a petition from our community residents who are against the plan to amend the zoning ordinance and who are definitely against the construction of a gas station on the Northridge Commons property. Some of our property owners are planning on attending the October 9, 2012, public hearing and will present the petition along with our concerns to the Planning Commission Committee. As Livonia residents, we are asking our city council members and other various city representatives for support and any assistance that they can provide to our community in this matter. Thank you for your time and consideration." The letter is signed by Harrel Ragazzino, 33739 Pondview Circle Livonia, Michigan 48152. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. Morrow: Are there any questions for the staff? October 9, 2012 25325 Ms. Krueger: I just wanted to make a comment for clarification that we're not reviewing the amendment of an ordinance. Correct? This is strictly a waiver use. Mr. Taormina: That is correct. Ms. Kruger: Thank you. Ms. Smiley: Does Kroger own that property that they want to put the gas station on? Mr. Taormina: No, they do not. Ms. Smiley: So they're leasing. They don't own the Kroger store either, do they? Mr. Taormina: That is correct. They do not own the store. They lease the store, but I do not know what the arrangement is with the gas station. Thal will be a question you can pose to the petitioner. Ms. Smiley: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Morrow: I will ask the petitioner to come forward and expand on what we've heard so far and any comments that you may have. We will need your name and address for the record please. Matthew Pisko, Landplan Engineering, P.A., 37740 Hills Tech Drive, Farmington Hills, Michigan 48331. Good evening. I'm representing The Kroger Company of Michigan and the project at 33523 Eight Mile Road in the Northridge Commons shopping center. Mr. Taormina kind of stole all my thunder with the slides. If you'll indulge me, I'm going to give you a brief overview of the national scope of the Kroger fuel program, which is impressive. I used to work for an oil company, and we used to laugh at the supermarkets and grocery stores. They're never going to gel supplied. They're never going to do well. The only two major petroleum marketers in the Detroit market, the Ohio market, are Speedway and The Kroger Company of Michigan. They've instituted a program across the country. They have little over 1,100 stations, and they're trying to expand rapidly from Florida to Alaska to help support their customer loyally and generale loyally to the store. It's really much more slated towards people who are customers of the store versus drive-by traffic, although they are welcome. In the elevation view that Mr. Taormina showed, there is a very small icon. If you look at it in your plans, that icon is kind of an abstract map of the United States of America. As you traverse across America, there is going to be 15 different trade names, but there is going to be this October 9, 2012 25326 unifying icon. Eventually, whether there is a unification of names across the country or not, it really doesn't matter because people recognize that icon that they can use their card across the country. So it really is quite a nationwide program. Moving into micro scale to this specific site, I love working with Kroger because they're a good neighbor from a design perspective. Being a major corporation, they are inordinately risk adverse. So comers that had gas stations that have to be razed in order to construct a Kroger fuel facility, anything that even has an inkling of an open environmental incident or contamination, they are just going to avoid at all cost. They want to start with clean properties where they can do an environmental assessment that proves the properly is perfectly clean. There are no plumes. There's no chemicals from a dry cleaner or from another fuel station. When they put their underground storage tank, which I'm proud to say is an extraordinarily effective system - if you want me to go into detail, I'd be glad to but I'd probably bore everyone. It is stale of the art in how it's constructed, how its monitored. It's something to be proud of. I live fairly close. It's a safe system. Again, I'll go through that in detail if you like. The placement of the station is proximate to the store because the kiosk itself, the cash register that the attendant sits in, is lied electronically to the store. Its not something that can run independent as perhaps a Speedway or a Sunoco. When the store is open, the kiosk and the gas station are open. So the hours of this store happen to be 6:00 a.m. to midnight. The fuel stations don't open exactly when the store does. It's a little bit after so they can gel the till and the cash register will come out with an attendant. It will run through the business cycle and it will close before the actual store does so they can close the till and get back to the store. With three or four full time equivalent jobs, essentially it's a pay point within the store, no different than the evolution of the deli department, the banks, or anything else in a grocery store. It's just become part and parcel of our competition, Costco, VG's, Meijers. It's a customer loyally program which allows people to accumulate points as they purchase groceries that can be redeemed with discounts on fuel, ten cents per $100 spent. I'll tell you all different ways you can accumulate those points, but I'll move onto the direct design standpoints. I know there are some concems. As far as the lights on the canopy, that's always a concern of adjacent customers. Kroger has been very thoughtful in their design. The under lights, if you think in pure wattage, are very light. The bulbs are 175 wafts under the canopy and 75 for the focus light. And not only are they recessed in the canopy so there's no visible light source, they are recessed up above the canopy deck. If you look at the C201 plan, which is the photometric plan, you'll see the canopy October 9, 2012 25327 is blacked out of numbers because it's night sky compliant. You really can't see anything underneath that, and as you move away from the canopy, it bleeds out to about two fool candles, three foot candles, zero foot candle before it hits the next aisle. So it really is task oriented for work under the canopy and bleeds out to nothing afterwards. The transaction kiosk itself has very limited sales on the inside. It has lottery tickets, cigarettes and gum, but I suggest the vast majority of the purchases happen at credit card readers at the dispensers. People go grocery shopping, gain points, accumulate points, get their gas on the way out. I assume that's a logical choice for trips. The air lower that's provided that is going to be in one of the islands is free to customers. You stole my thunder, Mr. Taormina, on that enormous 2001 odyssey monument sign that is in the middle of the parking lot far off the road and is virtually useless as a sign other than being large. It will be removed. The ID sign that was shown is part of the overall sign plan that was submitted. I believe there was a small sign every 300 feet for the adjacent tenants. So we're developing the Kroger and the fuel program sign, and that was in keeping with the proposed unification of the signs. Very limited outdoor sales and sundries per the ordinance - antifreeze, small oil and windshield washer fluid in front of the kiosk. It is a separate parcel. We meet all the bulk regulations which is a rarity in this business. That's it in a nutshell. If I can, I'd like to go through the architectural aspects of it so you can understand the design. If you'd like me to step over, I'll point out them out. Mr. Morrow: Yes, you may step over Mr. Pisko: All these fancy colors here are just to describe the pantones in the abstract logo. All this dedication is a corporate standard that we have to show that this is part of that price sign. The brick we went out and matched the store so there's symmetry between the kiosk and the store that's behind it. These are the earth lone colors which will be on the canopy fascia. This is the lop of the brick piers at the canopy columns. They're actually clam shell columns that have a shape, they have a base. It allows the canopy to be architecturally light. This is an odd structure in architecture. It's not something you want to put heavy massive columns in because the top of it is so light. Transparency to the Kroger store and the rest of the complex, which is still quite vacant, is of utmost importance. The price sign here is invisible from the road. It's just visible to Kroger customers so when they come out of the store they can see what the prices are. That's it as far as design criterion. Mr. Taylor: So you have no price signs out in front? October 9, 2012 25328 Mr. Pisko: If you tum to sheet AG201, you'll see two product signs. don't know if we had that on the overhead, Mr. Taormina. It's essentially the same sign box that's on the canopy. On AG201 in the upper left hand corner, you'll see that this is one of the four sign designs that came out of the redo for the whole complex and is compliant in size. Kroger gets its Kroger font to advertise the grocery store, which is by far the dog, and the gas station is the tail, but they do gel their price signs out on the front boulevard. The pace sign on the canopy is purely for people coming out of the store that they'll be able to see from the back. Its far loo removed to see it from eastbound traffic on Eight Mile, and it's impossible unless you're looking backwards in your car to see it westbound. Mr. Taylor: Mark, does this meet all the requirements of the sign ordinance? Mr. Taormina: Yes, it does. Ms. Smiley: I had a few questions. Obviously, they'll be able to pay with cash if they want al the kiosk. Mr. Pisko: Yes, they will. There's an attendant in the kiosk. Ms. Smiley: What kind of security do you have for the attendant in the kiosk? Mr. Pisko: There are eight video cameras placed around the kiosk, facing the kiosk and facing customer transactions that are monitored within the store. There's propnetary things that in the event something occurred in the store, there are panic buttons. I don't want to enumerate how that can happen, but the attendant is protected. Ms. Smiley: Okay. So there would be one attendant out there. Can people gel in that kiosk? Mr. Pisko: They gel in through the side door of the kiosk. It's a locked entrance. Oh no, customers don't access the kiosk. I'm sorry. I misread you. Its through a transaction drawer at the front or a cash tray. Ms. Smiley: Not that I'm anticipating any trouble there, but could someone physically rob that person? Mr. Pisko: Its bullet resistant glazing. The fenestrations are bullet resistant. Could somebody try to rob it? Sure, they could, but would they be effective? No. There's no avenue to gel your hand or your purse into the kiosk. October 9, 2012 25329 Ms. Smiley: And what are your hours of operation? Mr. Pisko: If the store opens at 6:00 a.m., the station would probably open at 645 when the lot lights give off enough light or they can illuminate the lot. The store closes at midnight. Its going to close at 11:00 p.m. That will give time to gel the cashier out, close the till, close the station down. The station goes dark so that it doesn't attract people to the station thinking that its open. So it gives them time to turn the lights down because they will glow after they tum off. I would say 6:30 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. would be the hours. It has to mirror the store to slay open. Ms. Smiley: Do you anticipate any changes or upgrades or improvement to the Kroger, to the big dog? Mr. Pisko: I can honestly say that I've seen several interior remodels result as the installation of fuel stations bumps the store sales. This store has been remodeled four times since 1990. As part of the remodel right now, they put a new roof on the entire building for the Kroger store, which is a substantial capital investment. That's done. That's what drives the sales from the fuel station. It is a big bump to the store to keep it healthy. This store, as far as modem grocery stores, and I'm sure you're aware of this in shopping at other grocery stores, is very small. It needs to keep competitive. This is a thing that will help keep it competitive. Its a convenience and a reward for our customers. They really do utilize the program and it helps the store. I'll be there. I live not loo far from there and I'm tired of going to Westland or further north. I think it will be well received for the store. Ms. Smiley: I live there too. So I'm very interested in this. You don't have to be a Kroger member, like you don't need your Kroger card like you need your Costco card to go in? Mr. Pisko: Its open to the public unlike Costco. Anyone can go there. As the program runs today, if you just have a Kroger card and you have never shopped at Kroger other than to get the card, you get three cents off a gallon. You can come in off the street as a non -Kroger member. You can be a Kroger member. You can shop there and utilize the point system. They don't discriminate from street purchases, but I would suspect it doesn't draw as much from non -Kroger customers. Ms. Smiley: Have you had the opportunity to speak to any of the neighbors from On The Pond? Mr. Pisko: Scary for some and boring for my wife October 9, 2012 25330 Mr. Pisko: We have not. The canopy is just a little bit south of where the Arby's is. The hours are less than the Arby's. From a light pollution standpoint, this is going to have absolutely zero impact. They won't notice any glow or any impact from light pollution. The air lower that provides free air to people that's on the northwest island is 75 decibels. Its around 480 feet from the property line of the larger parcel. To the properly line of the station is 486 feel to south and about 465 feel to the west. Then there's a six fool partition wall, then there's the carports, then there's drive lanes, then the condominiums. I would be absolutely shocked if they even know anything is going on in that station. It just doesn't generale that kind of noise. Most transactions are at the dispensers. They're credit card transactions. They're quiet. The actual dispensing of fuel is twofold. Its quiet, one, and two, with onboard vapor recovery, modern cars today, since 1998, actually actively extract vapors from the fuel tank. As you pump your gas in, it displaces vapor out of the tank. That's actually vacuumed and filtered through your car so there's no exchange of VOC's as you fill with fuel. There's no scents in the air for anyone. A modern gas station as Kroger specifies is not something that's going to be witnessed or smelled by adjacent neighbors. Ms. Smiley: Okay. And do you want to speak about landscaping? Mr. Pisko: The front of the parcel was just redone. That streetscape, which is shown on our plans on the interior of the parcel, the two large landscape islands, to isolate the station to the west, are going to be grass to not block the fuel station between the back of the fuel station and the Kroger store. To the east, we put in large trees. They're four inch caliper to match existing adjacent trees. So we'll have trees in the islands. There's a couple plants. There are two islands here that are grass. There's two islands here that match these trees that ran down this entranceway. So we matched those. This landscaping has been completely redone. With the addition of the monument sign, we will continue to plant and light plants around the new monument sign. Ms. Smiley: Thankyou. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Pisko, your knowledge of your plans on this site is impressive. You're just rambling this sluff off like it's nothing. Its very impressive that you know. Mr. Pisko: Scary for some and boring for my wife Mr. Wilshaw: Can you say what the time is on that? October 9, 2012 25331 Mr. Wilshaw: Its certainly good that you're familiar with this site and the intricacies of this particular site versus just a generic site that you may propose for Kroger. Based on that, I do have a question about this site. The property for the gas station, is that going to be leased? Mr. Pisko: It will be a separate paroel which matches the bulk regulations required for the installation, the waiver use for a fuel station. And that will be subjugated to the master lease for the Kroger store. So all of that will be bundled together in one package in the lease amendment. Mr. W lshaw: Do you know what the terms of the lease are as far as time? Mr. Pisko: Coterminous with the existing store lease, which I believe the tens was 20 years. It was about to expire before this proposition. The lease is going to be modified to include the new paroel and will move forward. Mr. Wilshaw: That leads into my next question, which is, what is the lease for the grocery store itself and what does the future look like for that store? Mr. Pisko: I'm going to defer to Rick Ragdsale, the Real Estate Manager for Kroger. Rick Ragsdale, Senior Real Estate Manager, The Kroger Company, 40393 Grand River, Novi, Michigan. I've been around a long time. Its been my pleasure to oversee the expansion of the Five Mile Kroger store not once, but twice. It was also my pleasure to work with this organization, along with the Mayor and various City Council members on those other projects. It was also my pleasure to come in after the acquisition of the Great Scott store on Eight Mile, which we've worked with the landlord and now the mortgage company who took it over when the landlord defaulted on his mortgage payment to work out this deal. I am the Senior Real Estate Manager for The Kroger Company of Michigan, which entitles all of the stores in Michigan with the exception of one, and we have 134 stores. We are trying to gel fuel stations to service as many of our stores as we possibly can. I'm here to answer your question, which I believe is, what will be the future of the store. We've entered an agreement and the agreement is already, signed subject to the fuel station getting approved, that we would extend the expiration of the current lease time. Mr. Wilshaw: Can you say what the time is on that? October 9, 2012 25332 Mr. Ragsdale: No. Its proprietary. However, when the lease is done, it would be a matter of public record, but we have extended the lease term. I would say this, that when we do open up a fuel station, it's kind of a commitment to the site. The other thing that I do say too, is when we enter into these agreements, we have a provision that if we were to ever close the store or if we close the fuel station, we take it down and we put the land back the way it was. I'm not so sure loo many other fuel stations do that. Al lead what I've been driving around observing, not too many of them have. And the other thing is that we totally indemnify the landlords against any type of spills. We have state of the art equipment that monitors all of this sluff. Mr. Wilshaw: That's excellent. I appreciate that commitment to remediating the site if for some reason you had to. I hate to talk negatives, obviously, but the question then is, if this was not approved for some reason, could you tell me what this would do the Kroger store at that location or am I asking you loo much? Mr. Ragsdale: What it would do to it? Mr. Wilshaw: Yeah. Mr. Ragsdale: The store would be like it is now. Mr. Wlshaw: Okay. Would Kroger continue to be committed then to that store? Mr. Ragsdale: I guess we'll just have to find that out. I'm not sure. Mr. Wilshaw: All right. The reason I ask is, obviously, you understand just as much as anybody that that particular shopping center, which was once very vibrant and occupied, has struggled in the Iasi several years and for a number of reasons, not including the site lines and lack of ownership, the foreclosure that has occurred and so on. You're the Iasi major tenant in that shopping center and you are the cornerstone of what would bring anyone else into that shopping center. If Kroger were to leave, I think it would completely decimate that shopping center. So your commitment to this property and to that area is important to us. That's why I ask some of these questions. I appreciate as much candor as you can provide and the fad that you've been able to answer some of the questions at least. Thank you. Mr. Ragsdale: The question is, what will any retailer do? You could have asked Target five years ago at Plymouth Road, are you going to continue to operate in that building forever? Well, I don't think they could have said anything at that time, because what they October 9, 2012 25333 did is, they closed down that building. They went and operated in the new remodeled shopping center. There's always a possibility of that happening with any retailer. And I think what it is, we've been operating that store since 1991 or 1992. We're in the option periods now. We made a deal with the landlord who's the lender, and they're committed to trying to rejuvenate the center to where it does become viable again. And you're probably correct. Kroger is probably a pretty important part of that. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Thank you Mr. Taylor: Mr. Ragsdale, I know we've mel before many limes. Al the corner of Sheldon Road and Ann Arbor Road, they lore down a bank and Kroger is enlarging. Kroger bought the Big Boy, and Kroger is now building a gas station on that comer. The question begs, did you lake a look at the corner of Eight Mile and Farmington? Was any thought given to putting a gas station there? Mr. Ragsdale: Number one, just how Kroger views a gas station. Mr. Pisko said it's like another department of the store, and that's true. The gas station is an extension of the store. The Kroger's business model for gas stations is to put them in the parking lots first. If we can't put them in the parking lots, put them in an oullot of the shopping center. Now, this in essence, what we're doing is creating an outlol to the shopping center making it a separate parcel. The project that you're referring to in Plymouth Township is a bank that decided that they didn't want to operate as a bank anymore. It was a Bank of American. We went in there and that oullot has reciprocal easement agreements with the rest of the shopping center. So, in essence, its an outlol of the shopping center. That's how that works there. Therewasn t enough room in the parking field to put any type of fuel station in there. So we went on that outlol. In other words, we created an outlol to the shopping center. Al one time it was a separate parcel, separate ownership. So it's kind of an oullot to that shopping center in that particular instance. Mr. Taylor: Just for my information, where does the gas come from? Is there any special type of gas? I know Shell carries the Kroger card if you want gas at a Shell station. What kind of gas, if this goes in there, will be in that station? Are there different types of gas? Mr. Ragsdale: I'm going to use the term, and if I'm wrong, Matthew Pisko is going to kick me in my shin. It's called over the rack gasoline. Its not a branded gasoline. It's unbranded gasoline. So we October 9, 2012 25334 purchase it. We have a purchasing department for the entire country, and it's out of Hutchinson, Kansas. They make contracts with various suppliers of gasoline. There is no single brand. It's unbranded gasoline. You are correct. Kroger has a marketing relationship with Shell that allows up to len cents a gallon off on Shell gasoline. Kroger allows up to a $1.00, and most recently in the summer, it's been up to $2.00 if you have enough points to do that. Our suppliers vary because we're constantly buying on the open market. But we are supplied in Michigan by local suppliers, and where we gel our gasoline sometimes depends upon the market and the availability of the unbranded gasoline. Mr. Taylor: And to the gentleman from Kroger's, how do you determine safety with the person in the kiosk? Can he see all of the pumps to where if there's a problem with a pump running too long, does it automatically shut off, or how does that work? Mr. Pisko: NFPA 30, which is a national fire code for petroleum distribution, dictates that the attendant has to be able to view all the dispensing devices where she works. As it relates to overspills or things of that nature at the dispenser, there are several devices. If someone has the trigger depressed, as fuel comes toward the nozzle it's automatically going to shut off. There is a very annoying thing, and all of us are going to know what I'm talking about when I say when it's very cold, you'll notice you authorize the dispenser to put gasoline in your car and there is this ridiculous three to five second pause before it allows you to dispense gas. You can squeeze the trigger and yell at it and its just not going to do anything. That's self -pressure testing back to the tanks to make sure that the lines are completely air light and ready to handle petroleum. At that point in time, when they say, yeah, we're good to pump, it will start dispensing fuel. I don't anticipate that being an issue whatsoever. But again to the risk nature, we're the second largest grocery in the country. All of the attendants that are in the kiosk are trained through the Department of Environmental Quality in a very intensive class to get certifications to understand what happens if there's a gallon spill, how to abate that, clean it up and what to do with 9. It's a very responsible organization. Mr. Taylor: What about a handicap person? If they pulled in, can somebody get out there and help them with gas? Mr. Pisko: Beyond a shadow of a doubt, we can dispense to somebody who cant gel to the fuel. All the dispensers are completely ADA compliant. In this industry, and I've been around for a long time, very seldom do you ever see someone in a wheelchair October 9, 2012 25335 dispensing fuel. You can at a Kroger fuel station. They can get out of the car. They can go up to the fuel station. They can read the pump. The card reader, they can insert it. They can make their transaction. They can dispense fuel, which may not sound like a liberating factor, but when you have the ability to do it and you want to do it, you can, and if not, the attendant can fuel for you. Mr. Taylor: Thankyou Mr. Bahr: Currently your plan shows that the canopy is 19 feet high, and our ordinance limits it to 18 feel. Is that an issue for you? Mr. Pisko: There's four letters for that one - oops. If you look on our cover sheet under the bulk regulations, we actually had it shown as compliant at 18 feet. In our elevations when we did this grade to top canopy, we missed the dimension. Eighteen feet is fine. Mr. Bahr: And then on your rendering of the elevation, you show a gas price of $2.75. Are you committing to that? I'm all set. Ms. Krueger: I was wondering how many attendants are there at the station in the kiosk? Mr. Pisko: Typically speaking, there is one, just like a cash register in the store. Ms. Kruger: Okay. So in a ciroumstance where a handicap person does need assistance at the pump or for some other reason they need to leave the kiosk, what occurs? Mr. Pisko: They can put the pumps in stand-alone where no one can start a transaction or transactions continue while they go out of the kiosk. As part of their normal business during the day, they do exit the kiosk. They're not locked into the kiosk. They go out and they'll fill the windshield wiper fluid, pick up trash. They have a routine that they want to keep the station clean. They're not locked in the kiosk. They can exit the kiosk for functions within the station. Ms. Krueger: Okay. Are there restrooms available at the kiosk? Mr. Pisko: There are restrooms in the store. As an open air mall, we're well within the walking distance to the store for restrooms. Ms. Krueger: Okay. What do the attendants do when they need to use the restroom? October 9, 2012 25336 Mr. Pisko: They call back to the store and say it's break time. They send another cash register out. They don't even have to change the till. They change spaces and they head back into the store. Ms. Krueger: Okay. And you said certain items will be available for sale at the gas station, around the pumps or at the front of the store. Will it be windshield washer fluid and things like that? Mr. Pisko: Yes. For lack of a better word, it's a cube that's shown. It's in proximity to the kiosk. It will have Prestone antifreeze, motor oil. Its not an impressive selection, but it is, again, for the convenience of the customers. Ms. Krueger: Can you point out where that will be located? Mr. Pisko: Yes, I can. It's right about there. Its a small cube. Its probably two feet by two feet and has merchandise on all four sides. Ms. Krueger: If the customer wants to purchase something from that cube, how would they go about obtaining that and how would that transaction occur? Mr. Pisko: They would be parked in a fueling position even if they aren't fueling their car. They would get out of the car, grab the item, and they would go up to the kiosk. There would be an attendant facing them through the glass. They can scan it through the window or through the transaction drawer. They would pay via credit card or cash, and they could depart. Ms. Krueger: How do you prevent customers from taking off with items since there's only one attendant, and If the attendant is involved with a transaction with another customer? Mr. Pisko: Trust of our fellow man. It's always there. Its not a locked cage. If it happens, shrinkage happens in stores. But for the most part, if it were such an enormous problem for Kroger with people stealing things, I don't think they'd put it out there. It's a reasonable risk for them that people are going to be honest. Ms. Kruger: Those are all my questions. Thank you. Mr. Morrow: Is there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak for or against the granting of this petition, please come forward to either podium. If there is going to be more than one or two people, if you would line up so we can keep things moving. We'll start with this gentleman. We will need your name and address for the record please. October 9, 2012 25337 Al Howling, 33930 West Eight Mile Road, Farmington Hills, Michigan. My partner and I purchased a building directly across from this proposed location 24 years ago, and we've enjoyed leasing out our office space. One problem that we have had over the years is traffic congestion, trying to get onto Eight Mile from our property. There was a plan you had up there before. It showed a picture. This view here. You can see this drive closest to me is coming out of our side of Eight Mile. Now when we're coming out of there and we want to turn left, there's cars lined up right now to gel into Arby's. We can't turn left there. If we go down to the other possible exit from our property, that's directly across the street from the Kroger drive and we can't gel out there. We've approached the Oakland County Road Commission over the years about this problem. They were sympathetic to our concerns but indicated that there's a light on Farmington Road and there's a light on Cass Avenue, and that's about a three to four -tenths of mile area, and they cannot put another light in there. So with this station proposed in this location as it is, that's going to make it even more difficult for us and for our tenants. I think this also points to the situation that somebody brought up earlier. I think it was Mr. Taylor. The spot on Eight Mile and Farmington Roads. There have been two stations torn down there in recent years, but I think the reason that stations are in those locations is because they're readily accessible from the main thoroughfare so they don't interfere with other traffic. As far as the people from Kroger were concerned, they were talking about looking for a clean area. We can all appreciate that because a clean area means a lot less investment as opposed to going to a site where there was a previous station and there might be some contamination below ground, which they'd have to contend with. So that's an advantage to them, I can see, but it doesn't help us. I think all in all what they're looking forward to is to please Kroger and Kroger customers, and they really don't care about the residents that are affected by this, the condo complex that's going to be affected by that and the businesses around, especially our businesses on the other side of Eight Mile. Now, I know we're on the other side of the tracks here because we're Farmington Hills, and it's not like we're Livonia businesses and concerned about Livonia. We're concerned from a different city. As far as the inability to construct this station, I suppose the word threat would be loo harsh, but its almost like, look, if we don't gel this thing, then you're not going to have the Kroger store. That comment didn't really seem right to me. Thank you for your attention. Mr. Morrow: Thank you very much. October 9, 2012 25338 Harriet Ragazzino, 33739 Pondview Circle, Livonia, Michigan 48152. 1 wrote the email. I live in On The Pond Condominiums. Our main concern, there's many, but we're concerned about security, traffic pattems. We have only one entrance into our community, and when people pull out of Kroger now and they're situated in that center lane, it's often difficult to make the left tum into our condominium because there's a car silting there waiting to pull onto Eight Mile. Also, regarding looking for clean property, you had mentioned fumes. I mean there is a cleaners in that plaza so I dont know how their chemicals would affect your chemicals and drainage and any overspills that might go into the ground. We're concerned about that. With the height of the canopy, we have a two level structure and people in the upper floors. You said the lighting would not go much further back, but we're still concerned about that and if there's a contingency plan should that interfere with people's bedrooms or whatever. So those were my concems, and I wanted to mise them to the Council and Planning Commission and see if we had any recourse to this. I don't represent the Board in my community. I'm a private citizen so I don't represent the management company. This was all on my own. I do have a Iitfle petition, 45 signatures of people who are not in favor of the gas station being built. I can give that to you. Mr. Morrow: Yes, if you would. The secretary can receive that. To answer your question just before you got to the petition was, the Planning Commission is a recommending body as I said in my opening remarks. Our recommendation, either approving or denying, if its denying, they would have to appeal it to the Council. If it's approving, it will go directly to the Council. They will ultimately decide the question. All we're doing is a lot of the pre -work on it, to gel the citizen input, and then forward it to the Council. So this is the first bile of the apple for this waiver. If you're through, just hand the petition to the secretary. That will become part of the record. Ms. Ragazzino: I did have one last question really quickly. We do have that six fool wall between the properties, and I think he was saying there is like 463 feet between the gas station and our property. I don't know if that could be modified or amended because 75 decibels is still a little loud. I don't know how that would impact our community as well. Mr. Morrow: As far as your safety concerns ... Ms. Ragazzino: Oh, yes. People hop over the wall now October 9, 2012 25339 Mr. Morrow: Well, as far as the fumes, it is all regulated by State law or whatever law will apply. That's not really our bailiwick. We rely on laws of the other departments in the stale. Thank you very much. Ms. Raga=ino: I understand. Thank you. Ms. Smiley: Were you able to see the drawings and where the lighting is? Ms. Raga=ino: Yes. I live on the ground level floor, and I think I'm almost directly straight back from where the proposed station is going lobe. I live right directly behind where they're proposing. Ms. Smiley: Isn't there a row of stores, unoccupied right now. Ms. Raga=ino: Yes, there are stores. Ms. Smiley: Mark, where do you think she lives? Could you show me? Somewhere in there? Ms. Raga=ino: Somewhere right there, yes. Ms. Smiley: There is all those stores. And you said there's a six fool wall and the condos are behind there? Ms. Raga=ino: Right, but the stores don't abut the wall. There's a place for deliveries for like Kroger comes in with their trucks and whoever had occupied that area previously. It's a back door delivery area. Ms. Smiley: Thankyou. Mr. Morrow: We'll go to this podium. Ms. Watson will lake your petition. Ray Stoney, 33861 Pondview Circle, Livonia, Michigan 48152. 1 used to have a house on Westmore. I own a business at 11898 Beldon Court off of Plymouth. We just got back in town and we're thrilled with that you've done with Plymouth Road. Its been a long way coming. I have nothing against Kroger putting in a gas station, but we just got Eight Mile and Farmington all beautified. On the east side of Farmington, they ripped out a gas station and put in a whole bunch of stores and it really looks nice down there, and they're doing a booming business. I also know we summer out of Port Clinton, Ohio, and Kroger just built a new store down there and they put in a gas station, but the gas station is not in their parking lot. It's quite a hike to it. I just don't think this should be put in next to Arby's. I think we should be tickled to have them build a gas station and put it in the hole when they October 9, 2012 25340 just lore one down. That will certainly make a lot of people happy and God bless you and try to do a good job. And Joe, thanks for all your business years ago. Lisa Marony, 33681 Pondview Circle, Livonia, Michigan 48152. Good evening, gentlemen and ladies. I live at On The Pond condominiums, Building 12. 1 have many concerns about this particular topic here that we're discussing about the gas station being built off of Eight Mile and Farmington, a Kroger gas station. In my mind, it's not a good business decision. Speaking from a business perspective myself, I looked into the commercial property where Kroger is located and considered putting in a business there myself, but it's a very, very high rent district. The person who owns that properly is asking exorbitant amounts. The economy is poor. These are hard limes financially. We've lost citizens in the City of Livonia. We have foreclosures. We're having trouble keeping our homes and paying taxes. So trying to put a business in this particular location just was not of sound mind to me. There are no other people who are renting in that complex for that mere fact of the high cost rent, things being the way they are financially. Another thing I'd like to say is that being that I am a citizen of this community and I live at On The Pond, the first thing that comes to mind is the surveillance of the police. We would need an increase of police surveillance and I say this being that I've actually called the police out to come and survey behind that complex because my bedroom window is right outside, like by thatvacant lot overthere, just right nexllo it, the end of that plaza. My bedroom window is over there. I can see the dumpsler behind the plaza and I see that whole lot, which is lit up at night. There are people who come and they pick inside the dumpsler. They park their cars out there. They're meeting other cars out there. I don't know what they're doing. People are hopping the wall. I can see this outside of my bedroom window. Being that I was a concerned person, I can see what's going on. I called the police. So if this gas station is going to be built there, how many more people are going to jump that wall? How many more people will be going maybe behind inside that alley there behind that Kroger complex? Now an increase in police means an increase in taxpayers paying more taxes. My property value of my condo when I first bought the condo, they were asking $90,000 for a one bedroom. My condo on the market right now, in competition with the banks and everything, is like $29,000 if that. So, what am I trying to gel at here? I guess it's just that the tax dollars are small. We need to keep them that way. The taxes low because you guys dont have that money coming in any more as you once did. The traffic is pretty bad when I'm trying to gel out of my complex. I'm already having problems as is. It can be dangerous trying to pull out of October 9, 2012 25341 my litlle complex with the traffic that's there. Now, will a traffic light need to be installed? Probably if this gas station gets passed. Am I for that? No. I don't think it would be visually nice, appealing. I certainly don't want to have to pay for a light to be put in. Mr. Morrow: Ma'am, the gentleman before you said he looked into a traffic light and the County will not install a light in close proximity to other lights. Ms. Marony: I don't know if the board, the condominium management company that I have that is in my complex, if they proposed a light, would that pass? I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't want to pay for that. Mr. Morrow: Its a county road. It would be up to them. Ms. Marony Okay. Good. Because my association fees are high enough. Let's see. There's also the fear of car accidents because of the high traffic. There's already lots of car accidents almost always happening there. The other thing is the eyesore. I think that it will be an eyesore. We already have two gas stations that are in full operation on Eight and Farmington. There was a third one that was adjacent to those two. Mr. Morrow: We're familiarwith the area. Ms. Maroney They weren't successful. Why will this one be successful? I don't see it. Also, I'd like to mention that I avoid shopping in high traffic areas such as where Meijers is located on Eight Mile and Haggerty. I never go to Meijers and buy my grocenes there because Meijer's sells gas. I go to the two gas stations that are already on Eight and Farmington. I don't even like to shop at Meijer's because it's a high traffic area. Mr. Morrow: Well, let's keep d confined to this area. Ms. Maroney: Okay, but I'm afraid that if we have very high traffic there, that will be a hindrance to people wanting to buy my property and wanting to just be in that area. I think I pretty much said everything I have to say. Thank you for your time. Mr. Morrow: Thank you very much. John Angelo, 4285 Edkins, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan 48323. 1 own two office buildings directly across from the center. I'm not really in favor forseveral reasons that have already been mentioned, but most importantly, probably the traffic situation. It's very difficult at October 9, 2012 25342 times to leave both the shopping center and the office buildings across the street just because of the, I don't know if it's necessarily the amount of traffic, but the people turning lett into the center and both turning into our complex. Like many of the others have said previously, it just doesn't make sense to me to put one there when there's a couple other options or maybe some other options should be looked at before just putting one there in the middle of the parking lot overlooking Eight Mile directly across from my building. I don't want to look at a gas station, but if it is, it is. I guess that's my feeling. I think the other stations right down the street might be options. I'm sure they looked at some other options, but I think it should be explored a little more before we just erect a gas station in the middle of the block on Eight Mile Road. Mr. Morrow: Thank you very much Cindy Olsonback. I own a condo at On The Pond, and I am opposed because of the value of our condos already. I can gel there is like 60 seconds and to me that's dangerous. I just dont like the idea of R. I think if Kroger's is trying to make that Kroger better, they should improve on the store because it's probably one of the worse stores out of all the Kroger's. I never shop at that one. I don't think its going to help the store itself to have the gas station. Also, I have an upper unit and I would be able to view the gas station from my unit, which I think would decrease the value which its not worth much now anyway. I bought it for $117,000, and like she said, well, I have a two bedroom but I think it's worth maybe $30,000 or $40,000 and I owe $95,000. To see a gas station from my window I think would be horrible. And that wall is not tall enough to block it when I'm standing and looking out my bedroom window, and above my stairway I could see it perfectly because I'm right near the entrance when you first come in, that first building. I can see it very cleady. Not that I'm staring out the window every day. And just underground fuel and it's just loo close for our condos. Mr. Morrow: Thank you very much. Richard Gillican, 33900 West Eight Mile Road, Farmington Hills, Michigan. I'm the owner of Timber Ridge, which is an office building, which really is directly across from where this location is. I'm probably in agreement that putting a gas station here would increase the traffic flow. I've been in my building for 20 years, more than 20 years, and we watched this development as it did have many stores occupying it, and now it is in quite bad shape. We'd love to see it come back. I'm sure Livonia would. We in Farmington Hills would too. The problem is I just think that the gas station October 9, 2012 25343 would probably be loo much traffic for there. If those buildings were to be filled with tenants, it would be traffic that would be going farther in slaying for a longer penod of time. Here, a gas station has traffic coming in and out much faster. I heard Kroger's remarks as to the fad that it would be there. People who go to that store. I go to that store. My office is there. I go there. They're open Tale at night. It works well for me. It's sad that Kroger is the only one that is there. I would love to do anything I could to have Kroger slay. I'm just not sure if they could not make that gas station work on the corner. I understand with the staffing problems that they have that in and out of that office, which only had one person maintaining that station. That could be a difficult thing for them. Again, I just see it as a problem. We do have traffic. I've watched many a time an accident occur out there where people just aren't paying attention and run into somebody, or somebody's coming out of that lett hand tum lane and coming into the traffic going west on Eight Mile and didn't pay attention. I would like to say that I'd like to help Kroger do something there, but I just can't see that working. Mr. Morrow: Thankyou Joe Conti, 33747 Pondview Circle, Livonia, Michigan 48152. I'm also a resident of On The Pond, Building 10. 1 live just above Hamel. I'm the unit just above that can see over and I can see the glow in the dark right now. With the gas station, just like everyone else, property values have declined tremendously and again, with the gas station available on the comer, I dont see a reason why we need to have one right in our backyard. It just doesn't make sense. All the other reasons, the traffic. Mr. Morrow: I appreciate the fad that we've got a lot of input. If you've got something new, then we'd be glad to hear it. Mr. Conti: Just like everyone else said, the gas station I don't think is going to improve their business. I don't go shopping there. I could walk there but I prefer to do my shopping elsewhere. Mr. Morrow: Okay. Thank you. Barbara Langberg, 33435 Pondview Circle, Livonia, Michigan 48152. 1 came here for both information and to ask questions. The petition that was turned in I believe was also accompanied by this letter that was put in all the mailboxes at On The Pond. I was concerned about some of the things as the author of the letter said that we need to think about the environmental impact to our community should there be a gas spill or some similar problem that occurs October 9, 2012 25344 so close to our homes. And I listened to what the Kroger representative said regarding that and it seems like maybe that is not a huge concern, and that the tank underground would be safe and stuff, but what about something like there's an earthquake. Is it still safe? There's an explosion. Is it still safe? There was concern also in this paper about the water, the sewage, and the drainage system. Could that be affected negatively or not? Property values, would this decrease our property values? Would it raise our taxes? If there was just some kind of reassurance for the residents there. I had some notes on here. Also, I work at that Kroger store and have been there for a long time. I know that the people who do shop there were very excited when there was mention of the Kroger gas station. There are pros and cons. I have heard a lot of negativity tonight. I would not want to look out my window and see a gas station there, but look out the window and see a shopping center there anyway. I don't know. I came here more for infonnation. I do very much wonder about our property values if this would have a negative impact on them because if it impacts our property values any more, we probably won't be paying any taxes because they're down so low already. I just want to put my input in and if there's any other things regarding, if there's a negative impact to the environment that can be added to this. I am concerned about that as well on behalf of the residents. Ms. Smiley: I just have one question for you. I'm not familiar with that paper that you have. Who put that out? Ms. Langberg: This was put out by one of the residents. There is no author to it, but this was the only paper that was in our mailboxes. Ms. Smiley: Okay. Mr. Morrow: All the things you're concern about the sewer, that's all regulated, as well as the gas tanks. As far as an explosion, I can't remember ever hearing of a gas station blowing up, but I can't say it wouldn't happen. They have as much regulation as R relates to sewer, water, safety from the petroleum products as you could possibly have. It's all regulated by other departments through the site plan process and the building department. Ms. Raga=ino I just want to say I put that letter in our newsletter box so that the people in the community, they didn't really understand the hearing notice. Everybody I spoke to, I would say 85% did not understand the notice of public hearing tonight, where the station was going to go, what my thoughts on the impact would October 9, 2012 25345 be. So that was not a public consensus newsletter. That was just my own thoughts to get people to come tonight. Mr. Morrow: As far as properly values, there is no way we can speculate on that. I don't know if you had a derelict shopping center there, whether that would be a bigger drag on the area than a small gas station. I don't like to hear about those property values going down to that extent. I guess we've all been through it, but it's still hard to hear and a certain amount of empathy there, but we're all going through it. Thank you. Richard French. I'm located directly north of where the gas station is going to be. I also want to say that the problem is getting out onto Eight Mile is very difficult at this time. I think what we still need to find out, which hasn't been brought up, is how many more cars are going to be going in and out of that service station on a per hour basis. I'm pretty sure Kroger has probably already done a study on that, but they haven't brought it up to this Board. That's what I'd like to know because if cars are coming in, slowing down, pulling out, it's going to be very difficult even to gel out of the Kroger lot or the lots across the street. That's something that I think has to be really looked at is the number of additional vehicles now that are going to be pulling in and out. Thank you. Mr. Morrow: Thank you. Seeing no one else coming forward, would the petitioners care to respond to anything they've heard so far? Mr. Pisko: I can address these individually, but I'm going to try to put them together. There are clear themes. The lot at Farmington and Eight Mile is already under contract. Its sold. So even if Kroger was looking to purchase it, it is not available. For the fuel station that's here, there's no new curb cuts proposed for this. We're going to use the existing curb cuts that are there so traffic within the site is not going to change. We don't have an exact number but a vast majority of the traffic is going to come from the parking field at the Kroger store, moving towards the Kroger store. So it's not going to be moving across from the east towards the station. It will be moving from the Kroger store towards the station and then out either the two eastern approaches. This is a commercial development. When I look at it, we're far less intense than the Arby's that is there, hour -wise, sound -wise, as far as being contributory to things that are going to be obnoxious to the tenants. I'm confident in saying that the speaker on the Arby's is going to be louder than any activity you're going to hear from the fuel station. You've got the demising wall. You've got the actual structure of the whole complex from where the Blockbuster was to where the old labor building was and all the way across there. It's kind of a screen. October 9, 2012 25346 Then you have the parking area. Let me go through this. Harriett had points, the security. Again, we have security cameras on board. The station opens after Kroger is opened so there are people in the parking lot. It closes before the Kroger store closes. One thing I was remiss in mentioning, which will clear up the 11 limes it was mentioned, as far as the environmental impact. We have to submit to the Department of Environmental Quality, Marcia Pox is the reviewing engineer in Lansing, every time we submit for an underground storage lank installation. They have 30 days. We gel our plan reviews returned very quickly compared to the traditional review because the underground storage system is so advanced. I'd like to explain to you in a very brief time so you'll understand just how advanced it is. The underground storage tanks are double wall fiberglass tanks. One, they're corrosion resistant. In the olden days, we used steel tanks. These are corrosion resistant. They have bane in between the two tanks. So it's a double chamber tank akin to the modern day oil tanker. There are monitors that monitor the brine that's on the outside of the tank that holds the petroleum. If there is any fuel loss or gain in the brine, all the submersible pumps shut down. There's an audible alarm that's in the kiosk that will deafen you, and all operations will stop. People will come to the site en mass to figure out what is happening. If there was a leak at the dispensers, which is very uncommon, there are sensors in the sumps underneath the dispensers that discriminate between water and petroleum or VOCS. Even if water drops into the sump, those dispensers are going to shut down just to find out where the water is coming from. And I'm proud to say, this is a state of the art system. So as far as mishaps because of intake or loss of product, it's very rare. If it were to occur, it's controlled and it's stopped and it can be immediately mitigated. Being in Wayne County, Livonia adopted Wayne County's drainage and storm sewer ordinance. We would treat our discharge water before it would even go into the storm sewer system, and if there's anything, any volatile or organic compound, petroleum, oil, it's going to slop and hold in the structure so we wont discharge. Wayne County wouldn't allow us to discharge any VOCs into the system. So that again is regulated by the County that has jurisdiction. We have four points of ingress in and out of the mall. We think that's more than adequate to service the addition of the fuel station. The sound level that Harriett brought up, 75 db, it's not going to be heard that far away. I can assure you. We just did a sound study with Novi where we actually had the machine running, and it was virtually silent 100 feet away from it. Mr. Slone asked about the old station. Again, thalslalion at the corner has been sold. As far as people loitering, from Ms. Maroney, there's not October 9, 2012 25347 a lot of foot traffic that is going to come to the station. This is an auto service business so we dont anticipate that occurring. Mr. French was my fathers accountant, God rest his soul. It's nice to see him here. Again, leading to the traffic, we're across the street. We have four forms of ingress and egress, and I think we have more than adequate ways to gel traffic in and out of the site. Mr. Morrow: Thankyou. Mr. Wilshaw: I have a question. It kind of came up from the audience communication, and you tried to address it, I think, but I just want to see if you can clarify as much as possible. Based on the number of existing Kroger gas stations that you have operating around the country, do you have an idea as to what percentage of the gas station traffic is customers who are also going to the grocery store itself, or what percentage is just strictly gas sales? Mr. Pisko: I think they have a general feel, but I don't think they have exact counts. It's not something I would be comfortable to say if its an 80/20 split. Mr. Wilshaw: That why I was wondering if you just had a general feel you could give us. Mr. Pisko: No, I don't. A vast majority of the people are Kroger customers, and I have to use my own common sense. I want to accrue points and then gel gasoline. For me, I would shop and buy the 400 boxes of PopTarts and then use my points. That's my philosophy. I cant speak to that though. Mr. Wilshaw: My gut feeling is similar to yours in the sense that it's probably similar to a Costco gas situation where people are going there because they want to do business at that location as well, not just strictly to get gas. Mr. Pisko: Clearly, there is an enormous correlation or cross merchandising between shopping in the store and accruing points for discount at the fuel pumps. Mr. Wilshaw: That's the kind of feeling I get. As far as just a general comment about the traffic, we don't have a traffic study that was presented by Kroger to look at, but I don't see that one is necessary in this particular petition because, having poured over traffic studies, which can be very lengthy and expensive to produce, I think what we're going to find that this is a shopping center that was designed to handle many many hundreds of October 9, 2012 25348 cars. There's certainly many spots in this parking lot. If you look at this parking lot right now at any given time, even on the photograph that you see on the screen, there's not a lot of cars at this particular shopping center. Any additional traffic that will be generated as a result of this gas station, I think is a small percentage of what the total capacity of this site is capable of handling and the roadways that surround it. Therefore, I'm comfortable, at least with the traffic issue, that I don't think that this gas station is going create a tremendous burden on Eight Mile Road that wouldn't exist if this shopping center wasn't fully occupied. Mr. Pisko: Something that makes it even less intense than a traditional fuel station is, there's no big box convenience store associated with it. This is very small purpose built. It's a cash register essentially. That's was the kiosk holds. Its not drawing people like the Speedway on the northwest corner of Farmington. That's a 24-hour convenience store with all kinds of good stuff to eat in it. That draws a different crowd. Mr. Wilshaw: That's a good point. Thank you. Mr. Morrow: Are there any otherqueslions? Mr. Taylor: I just heard a lot of the people speaking. I think we have to discount a few things. This gas station certainly wouldn't lower the property values. We've all taken a hit on our property values lately. I think we're talking a lot about traffic, and I think the petitioner has cleared up the fad that there are four driveways going in off Eight Mile Road. When I moved into Livonia about 50 years ago, I could walk down the middle of Middlebelt and not have to worry about getting hit by a car. Well, then everybody else moved in and made it pretty crowded for me. I thinktraffic is something that the Planning Commission can't necessarily do anything about. It is a county road. I think what we have to do and look at, it is a shopping center that is hurting. There's no question about it. It was a very viable shopping center at one time, and anything I think we can do to help a shopping center in Livonia that we can do, I feel we should try and help them out. Now, will Kroger ever expand? I know it is a small store. There's no question about it. Maybe they are thinking about expanding. All other Krogers are much larger. The one at Merriman and Five Mile is a huge Kroger store and they've redone that a few limes. They wanted to put a gas station across the street on the comer and they couldn't cul a deal with that, with a gas station. So trying to say you've got to go on the comer, that's where we want you to go if you go, is pretty difficult for any of us to say. That has to be a deal October 9, 2012 25349 between two different owners, and that doesn't always work because pace always enters into that. I think if we can help this shopping center out as far as my idea in Livonia, is that we ought to do whatever we can to help Krogers to stay there. Kroger should be very profitable because there aren't many grocery stores in that area. I don't see why they don't do better than they do other than the fact they're not as large as some of the stores that people like to shop in now, Walmart, Meijers, the large Kroger stores, Hillers. I think we should try and help. I have sympathy for the neighbors. I understand traffic is a problem, but I know I've talked to the police department about getting out of my street. And they said, wail a minute, now just count the seconds and see how seconds it lakes you to get from your street onto Newburgh Road. I've done that. You've got to be a little patient. That's the problem. Nobody has the patience anymore and we have an awful lot of cars in Livonia. It used to be you had two cars in a home. Now you have four, three, the kids all have them. So there's a lot of traffic in Livonia. So we have to put up with a little bit of that traffic that we're confronted with unfortunately. So I'm going to support this. I want to come out and tell you the reasons why I support it because I want to help Livonia as best I can to keep the shopping center viable. God knows we have a few of them that are not doing well and we need to help all those that we can. Mr. Morrow: Before I ask for a motion, this gentleman has something to say Mr. French: I'd just like to mention too, what will happen when that mall does gel filled up and then we have more traffic that's going in and out of there. The previous gentleman stated that people go buy their grocenes, and then they just go to the service station. Well, I have a Kroger card too. We go to the Kroger store, gel that discount. We dont go to the Kroger store, buy food, and then go over to the gas station. We go to the gas station whenever the car needs gas. Our building is right across the street. There's nothing more I would love to see than the whole thing filled up because that keeps our building full. So then there's less rental space around. But putting in a service station, I don't know that's going to help all those other stores that are empty at this time. Ms. Scheel: I wanted to say that I agree with the comments that Commissioner Wilson and Commissioner Taylor made, but along with helping out the mall, I think it also helps out the neighbors and the community that shops there because it does give them a Kroger station that they can use their points at. You don't need to use your points the minute you get them. They do rollover so you can go to the grocery store, eam your points, October 9, 2012 25350 and then go to the gas station the next time you go to the grocery store because your points do rollover and save up. When you get your receipt, it shows you on your receipt how many points you've earned and when they expire. So you don't have to use them the same trip. You can use them the next trip or the trip after. So I think it would be a plus for the community members that do shop there also. Thank you. Mr. Morrow: I'm going to close the public hearing and ask for a motion. On a motion by Smiley, seconded by Taylor, and unanimously adopted, it was #10-84-2012 RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on October 9, 2012, on Petition 2012-09-02-19 submitted by Landplan Engineering, P.A., on behalf of The Kroger Company, requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 11.03(a) of the City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended, to construct a gas station on a portion of the Northridge Commons shopping center at 33523 Eight Mile Road, located on the south side of Eight Mile Road between Farmington Road and Gill Road in the Northeast 1/4 of Section 4, which properly is zoned G2, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 2012-09-02-19 be approved subject to the following conditions: 1. That the Composite Site Plan-Proposed Construct marked sheet C-002 dated September 11, 2012, prepared by Landplan Engineering, P.A., is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2. That the Dimension Control Site Plan marked sheet C-200 dated September 11, 2012, prepared by Landplan Engineering, P.A., is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 3. That the Landscape Plan marked sheet L-100 dated September 11, 2012, prepared by Landplan Engineering, P.A., is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 4. That all disturbed lawn areas shall be sodded in lieu of hydroseeding; 5. That underground sprinklers are to be provided for all landscaped and sodded areas and all planted materials shall be installed to the satisfaction of the Inspection Department and thereafter permanently maintained in a healthy condition; October 9, 2012 25351 6. That the small "transaction kiosk" enclosure shall be constructed out of brick to match the Kroger store; 7. That all rooftop mechanical equipment shall be concealed from public view on all sides by screening that shall be of a compatible character, material and color to other exterior materials on the building; 8. That the gas pump island canopy shall not exceed eighteen feet (18') in height; 9. That all pump island canopy lights shall be recessed and/or made flush with the canopy ceiling; 10. That this site shall meet either the City of Livonia or the Wayne County Storm Water Management Ordinance, whichever applies, and shall secure any required permits, including storm water management permits, wetlands permits and soil erosion and sedimentation control permits from Wayne County and the City of Livonia; 11. All pole -mounted light fixtures shall not exceed twenty feel (20') in height and shall be aimed and shielded so as to minimize stray light trespassing across property lines and glaring into adjacent roadway; 12. No outside storage, placement or display of merchandise shall be permitted at any time on this site, however the foregoing prohibition shall not apply to the display, on the pump islands only, of oil based products as permitted in Section 11.04(a) of the Zoning Ordinance; 13. That free air shall be provided at all times this station is open for business. The free air shall be dispensed at the point of service without having to enter the station or the performance of any extra action in order to obtain the air without charge; 14. That no vehicle vacuum equipment or the outdoor placement of propane cylinder storage units shall be permitted on the site; 15. That only conforming signage is approved with this petition, and any additional signage shall be separately submitted for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals; October 9, 2012 25352 16. That no part of the pump island canopy fascia, with the exception oflhe embossed logos, shall be illuminated; 17. That no LED lightband or exposed neon shall be permitted on this site including, but not limited to, the pump island canopy, building or around the windows; 18. That the lights for the gas station shall be turned off when the gas station is not in use; 19. That the specific plans referenced in this approving resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department at the time the building permits are applied for; and, 20. Pursuant to Section 19.10 of Ordinance #543, the Zoning Ordinance of the City of Livonia, this approval is valid for a period of one year only from the date of approval by City Council, and unless a building permit is obtained, this approval shall be null and void at the expiration of said period. FURTHER, the Planning Commission recommends the approval of a Conditional Agreement limiting this waiver use to Kroger and its affiliates only and should Kroger vacant the shopping center, the fueling station shall be removed and the area restored back to a parking lot to the satisfaction of the Planning Department and Inspection Department, with the provision to extend this waiver use approval to a new user only upon approval of the new user by the City Council. FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. Mr. Morrow: Is there any discussion? Ms. Kruger: I was thinking that maybe that last paragraph should be changed because it says "if Kroger vacates the shopping center, the fueling station shall be removed." I believe that it should say something ... Ms. Smiley: Didn'ttheysay they'd remove it? Ms. Kruger: No, I'm saying that if they decide to close the station, it should be removed. Ms. Scheel: So if they keep the store there and they close the station, you want to make sure that everything is removed. October 9, 2012 25353 Ms. Kruger: Correct. Ms. Smiley: I dont have a problem with that, but they said when they close the gas station, they usually put it back in the shape it was before. Ms. Kruger: I just want to be sure that's clear in this paragraph. Mr. Morrow: Does the maker of the motion and the supporter agree? Ms. Smiley: I'm fine with it. Mr. Taylor: I have no problem with it, other than the fact that the petitioner normally has an opportunity to come back and the waiver use goes go with the land, come back and ask if whoever goes in, if another store goes in there, would like to support that gas station. They have that option to do that, don't they Mr. Taormina? Mr. Taormina: Yes. I think the last part of that condition protects that. Mr. Wilshaw: There are several provisions already in this approval regarding lighting, but that was a topic that was very near and dear to many of the residents who spoke that live near this property. So I was going to ask if we could add one more lighting provision if the maker of the motion would be okay with it, and that is that the lights for the gas station be turned off when the gas station is not in use so they're not left on overnight. Ms. Smiley: They said they tum them off so people know its not open. Mr. Wilshaw: Right. I just want to have that solidified in the approving resolution. Mr. Morrow: So that it becomes part of the motion. Does everyone concur with that? Ms. Smiley: No problem. Mr. Taylor: No problem. Mr. Morrow, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. The residents that were here tonight, this will come up before the City Council. If you contact their office, they will be able to tell you when it's scheduled for their hearing. Thank you very much for coming. October 9, 2012 25354 ITEM #3 PETITION 2012-09-02-20 HERTZ Ms. Scheel, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Pefition 2012- 09-02-20 submitted by The Hertz Corporation requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 11.03(8) of the City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended, to operate a used auto dealership with outdoor display of vehicles at 33910 Plymouth Road, located on the north side of Plymouth Road between Farmington Road and Stark Avenue in the Southeast 114 of Section 28. Mr. Taormina: This is a request to operate a used auto dealership with outdoor display of vehicles al the existing Hertz car rental facility located on the north side of Plymouth Road between Farmington and Stark Roads. The size of the site is about 1.80 acres. It has 133 feel of frontage along Plymouth, a depth of about 650 feet, for a total lot area of 1.8 acres or about 78,000 square feet. The property currently has two zoning categories associated with it. The southerly part, about 330 feel, is zoned C-2, General Business, while the remaining north portion of the parcel is zoned RIF and is vacant. The proposed used car sale operation would be run in conjunction with the existing car rental business. In terms of the existing site conditions, the front portion of the site is mostly paved. There are two structures on the property. The larger of the two structures is about 2,500 square feet and is the sales office for Hertz Rental Cars. Then there is smaller detached garage that is located directly behind the main building that is used for accessory purposes. It is a detail shop where the rental cars are washed and vacuumed. As I indicated, the RUF portion of the properly is currently vacant and wooded and would not change as part of this petition. To the west, is the site of Orchard, Hiltz & McClimenl, an engineering, architectural and planning firm. Their properly is zoned C-1, Local Business. To the north of the properly is a residential neighborhood. There are homes along Wadsworth Avenue. To the east is a vacant parcel. The aerial shows a building, but that building has been razed. Itis the size of the former Olson Oldsmobile and it was actually part of the property that we're discussing this evening. To the south across Plymouth Road are various commercial land uses, mostly under the C-2 zoning category. New and used car lots require waiver use approval under the Zoning Ordinance. There are a number of restrictions that apply. I'll just indicate a couple of those: that no vehicles shall be parked within 20 feet from the front lot line or at the side lot line adjacent to the street; and that the total number of vehicles proposed to be displayed or stored is subject to the recommendation of the Planning Commission and October 9, 2012 25355 final approved by City Council. So this body and the Council has the final say as to how many vehicles can be offered at any used car facility that is approved under this process. Parking is not really an issue here. There is a slight parking requirement for the sales space and for the employees, but they are accounting for those two uses. There are about 50 striped parking spaces on the properly. They would be divided in the following manner: 35 spaces would be dedicated for used vehicles sales; 6 spaces would be assigned for rental vehicles; 4 spaces for their employees and roughly 5 spaces for customer parking. The sketch of the survey shows the main features of the site including the buildings and the parking area, although they are difficult to see on this sketch. This shows where each of those dedicated parking stalls will be located, which ones will be for rentals and sales. Generally speaking, the majority of the car sales will be located in the front and along the side of the property, and then some would be dedicated for the rental vehicles, and then employee and customer parking. In terms of landscaping, if you look at just the C-2 zoned portion of the site where the ordinance requires 15 percent of the site to be landscaped, currently there is only about 6 percent landscaping, so it is deficient. Part of the reason for the deficiency is that the site is really devoid of any landscaping along the front adjacent to the sign where we typically see landscaping along the sidewalk in addition to what is in the right-of-way. Going beyond that, especially for car dealerships where they are not allowed to park cars within 20 feet of the front lot line, typically we encourage as much landscaping within that 20 feet for compliance with that section of the ordinance. Also, this property does not contain a driveway onto Plymouth Road. Ingress and egress is provided via an easement across the adjacent parcel, where a drive approach is located just east of the Hertz property. There is a drive approach just east of here. These two properties were combined at one time in common ownership. They are no longer combined in ownership; however, we believe there is an easement that has been retained that allows for cross access between the properties for use of that adjacent driveway. On September 20, the PRDA's Executive Committee reviewed Hertz's petition, and is currently not able to support the project due to several reasons, including the lack of proper ingress/egress to the site, deficient landscaping, and a belief that the area is currently well -served by this type of use. With that Mr. Chairman, I can read out the correspondence if you'd like. Mr. Morrow: Please. October 9, 2012 25356 Mr. Taormina: There are four items of correspondence. The first dem is from the Engineering Division, dated September 21, 2012, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above -referenced waiver use approval request. The written legal description provided is comect. The address for this site is confirmed to be 33910 Plymouth Road. The petitioner is hereby notified (via copy of this correspondence) that any site changes which would impact public utilities, road right-of-way, easements, or changes in storm or sanitary sewer volumes must be approved by the Engineering Division of Public Works." The letter is signed by Kevin G. Roney, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The second letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated September 21, 2012, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the plans for requesting waiver use approval to operate a used auto dealership with outdoor display of vehicles at the above referenced address. 1 have no objections to this proposal." The letter is signed by Earl W. Fesler, Fire Marshal. The third letter is from the Division of Police, dated September 20, 2012, which reads as follows 'I have reviewed the plans in connection with the petition. 1 have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by John Gibbs, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The fourth letter is from the Plymouth Road Development Authority, dated September 25, 2012, which reads as follows: "On September20, 2012, the Executive Committee of the Plymouth Road Development Authority of the City of Livonia reviewed the above -referenced petition submitted by Hertz to operate a used car sales lot in conjunction with an existing rental car business located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Farmington and Stark Roads. At this time, the Committee is unable to support the proposal based on the following concems: 1) The area is currently well -served with used auto sales operations, 2) Ingressregress is inadequate to handle the additional traffic that would be generated by the proposed use, and 3) The plans provide no additional landscaping along Plymouth Road, which—on this site—is lacking." The letter is signed by Mark Taormina, Economic Development & Planning Director. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. Morrow: Are there any questions for the staff? Mr. Taylor: First of all, Mark, and I know you were around at the time as was 1, Olson Oldsmobile owned that complete site and sold used cars out of that same building. Mr. Taormina: Correct. October 9, 2012 25357 Mr. Taylor: I don't quite understand why all of a sudden now they need a waiver use to do what they did in the past. Maybe they never had a waiver use to start with. I don't know, but it was the same building and I remember it. I knew the fellow that owned Olson Oldsmobile. It's not uncommon either for somebody to use a common driveway or a driveway for two different businesses. I know that Olson Olds had the drive coming in, and when you came out of their shop, they used the driveway to the west. They also used that for the used car lots from the west. So, it sounds strange that we need a waiver use here, but I guess evidently if the Inspection Department says we need one, we need one. Evidently there was never one there. Mr. Taormina: Yes, and whether or not the original Olson Oldsmobile received waiver use, I don't know. I know they came back at times for additions and expansions. What differs in this particular case is the fad that we are looking at a part of what was once a larger property and a view towards compliance under the standards as they exist today for this site by itself to operate as a used car operation. I do understand the fad that there was some crossover at this property when it was part of the larger parcel. In fad, this building was used to some extent as part of a sales office for Olds Oldsmobile. So with that, I think there is some degree of deference given to the fad of the historical use of the property but with an eye towards seeing how we can get the property improved to today's current standards with respect to ingress and egress, signage, landscaping and some of these other issues that we've mentioned. Mr. Taylor: I don't disagree with the landscaping. Definitely, we've done that all along Plymouth Road. Actually, I don't know, I guess we'll hear from the petitioner, as to how many cars they want to sell there. I have no idea. I knew that Hertz sold cars, but I didn't know they had a lot where they put a bunch of cars on it. I don't know whether they sold 30 cars at a time or 20 cars at a time. I guess we'll hear that from the petitioner. Mr. Morrow: Is the petitioner here this evening? We will need your name and address for the record please. Jeff Wilds, Regional Marketing Manager, The Hertz Corporation, 2170 Mannheim Road, Des Plaines, Illinois 60018. Mr. Morrow: You heard the presentation. Is there anything you want to add to the presentation or any other comments or your business operation? We would be interested in hearing that. October 9, 2012 25358 Mr. Wilds: Definitely. Hertz has been around for a little over 100 years now. We've always been, throughout the business cycles, an up and down company. Obviously with what's happened in the last five, six years with the economy, rental car companies as a whole have taken a hit. Traditionally, most rental car companies don't own their vehicles. They're leased or they are turn-back vehicles or program vehicles when we turn them back to the manufacturers. In recent years, Hertz has changed its business model. We've gone more into an owned fleet. So whatever cars we have on our lot, those are the cars that we physically own. In tum, we've decided instead of going to the auctions and allowing dealerships to buy our cars and then resell them directly to consumers like yourself and myself, we sort of cut out the middle man in a couple different ways. Hertz has actually designed a program called Dealer Direct in which we sell our cars directly back to dealerships, and in turn, they can sell them back to the general public. That's one sort of car sale that we do. Its only to people with either a wholesaler or a dealer license. It has nothing to do with general retail, but that is an aspect of what we do. The second is called rent-to-buy. Some people gel it confused with sort of a rent-acenler, where I can continue to rent this car and then finally buy it, but its actually a very different way to purohase a car. We have many renters that come through facilities and say, "Hey, my car was totaled. I was in a car accident and I'm driving this car. Can you guys sell me this car?' Hertz look that from a very small idea into nationwide. We sell roughly 750 to 800 cars a month doing it this way. Its all online. They apply for their credit. They apply for everything online, and what people can do is actually they reserve a specific car, sort of like when you rent a car, but instead of saying, "Hey, I want a full size car," they say I want this exact vehicle by VIN. What happens, we get that car ready, the person comes up, they lake it for three days on a lest drive, and if they decide to rent it, they click intent to buy and then they're on their way. So we do a lot of sales like that. I know the car sales stores that I opened in Des Plaines, we sold roughly 25 cars that way. So, it's a rental customer. They just pick it up and everything else goes online. So it's not the traditional car sale. And the last portion of what we decided to do is actually open a retail car lot. We just decided probably about a year and a half ago, because of what we have done with Dealer Direct and selling cars back to dealerships. We cul out the auctions. Why don't we cut out the dealerships and pass the savings directly along to the retail customer? So what we've done is we take our fleet of newer used cars. Right now they are 2011's and 2012's. We don't sell any old 10 and 20 years old cars in our fleet. They are new used cars if that makes sense. We hand pick the best cars from our fleet. So October 9, 2012 25359 we look at what we can - VDA, vehicle damage appraisal. Has anything ever been done to this car? Have they been in an accident? They go through a CarFax. They go through a 72 point inspection. They gel detailed and they end up front line ready. Then we put those cars out on the lot, and people can come in, and it's a one price system. The consumers that we've had in Chicago, Illinois, we turn the screen around. There's no gimmicks. Here's your price. These are your taxes. This is your title. Everything like that and this is your price. They come in and they buy a car and they're in and out in a couple hours. Its gone extremely well. So what we decided to do, I oversee the 11 midwest stales from Michigan and Ohio, Kansas and Nebraska, and I'm tasked with opening car sale locations for Hertz in that area, and one of the natural cities that we chose was Detroit. It's a huge city in our market. Our vice president came out and saw Livonia, and he said, "Hey, this looks like its already a car sale lot." In turn it was, and said, "Hey, this would be a good idea. Why don't we try and open one there?" I guess that brings me to you guys today. Mr. Morrow: Thank you. Are there any questions? Mr. Taylor: How many cars would you want to have on that lot if you were approved? Mr. Wilds: For just car sales? Mr. Taylor: Well, for rental, I go by there. There's only six or eight cars there for rental. I know that. Mr. Wilds: Well, Chats sort of a trick. I don't know if anybody has ever been on the inside of a car rental company, you don't want to have any cars on your lot. If you have cars on your lot, you're losing business. We depreciate our cars on a daily basis, so when you see any rental company, Enterprise or anything like that, if they have cars on their lot, it's bad news for them. So In general, we want very few rental cars on our lot to make money. On the flip side, for a car sale, I would say anywhere from 30 to 40 cars is where I would be looking. Mr. Taylor: So you could live with 30 cars on the lot? Mr. Wilds: Yeah. Mr. Taylor: How do you gel people in there to buy those cars? Is it off the street, or what is it? October 9, 2012 25360 Mr. Wilds: Its interesting that you asked that question. We've been open in Chicago for six months, and we just got back our leads or where we gel our business from. It was interesting enough. The Chicago Tribune, which is a huge newspaper, it brought in one percent of our people. We spent a ton of money on that newspaper, and now we no longer spend a ton of money, but everything, believe it or not, nowadays comes from the internet, Cars.com and Auto Trader. We're starling to gel into more local newspapers now. We have a guy, for example, in our Chicago store who is Bulgarian. We're going to put an ad in a Bulganan newspaper. We try to do some local things as well as online. But most people, nowadays, everything is online. They find the cars and compare online before they even walk through the door. Mr. Taylor: But you don't have a landscape plan at this time either? Mr. Wilds: No. Before I spoke yesterday to the City, I didn't know at this point that we needed to change anything with the landscape. We're definitely open to that. We just need to know what we need to do. Mr. Taylor: What kind of arrangement do you have for the driveway? Mr. Wilds: Al this time, Jeff is the Area Manager for the car rental side of it. We've never had any issues with R. Nothing has been brought up. I asked him, do we lease it? Are there any issues? And nothing has ever come up about it at this point. Mr. Taylor: If the property is owned by two different people, they're using the driveway to the east owned by somebody else? Mr. Wilds: Correct, at this time. Yes. Mr. Taylor: Well, how are you getting permission to do that? Mr. Morrow: Is there an easement there? Mr. Taormina: I don't know the legal arrangement between the owners. Again, Hertz is not the owner of this property. It is my understanding that they lease all or a portion of the site. So the arrangement could very well be between the owners of the two properties. I'm sure somebody with Hertz is aware of the arrangement because it's obviously in their best interests to protect that investment in their ability to get in and out of that site. Mr. Taylor: I'm just trying to clean up some of the problems we have from the PRDA that said you're driving on somebody else's driveway. October 9, 2012 25361 If you can verify the fact that you've got an easement there and you can do that, and then you come back with a landscape plan. This evening, I'd ask for a tabling motion until we have that type of thing. Mr. Wilds: Okay. Mr. Taylor: I don't know if that's proper right now. If somebody else has other questions, I don't have a problem. Mr. Morrow: We've got to go through the public hearing portion of it. There may be some other questions. Are there any other questions of the petitioner? Mr. Taylor: Then Mr. Chairman, I would ask for a tabling motion. Mr. Morrow: I want to find out if there's anybody in the audience. Mr. Taylor: Oh, I'm sorry. Mr. Morrow: Have we satisfied all the questions? Is there anyone in the audience that wishes to speak for or against the granting of this petition? I see a gentleman coming forward. We will need your name and address for the record please. John Hiltz, Orchard, Hiltz & McClimenl, 34000 Plymouth Road, Livonia, Michigan 48150. We're the adjacent properly. First and foremost, Hertz has been a good neighbor. So we're happy to have them as a neighbor. As you identified, Mr. Taylor, yes, this did used to be part of a larger site. We've all seen these petitions through the PRDA because I'm also a member of the PRDA by the way. But through the PRDA and the Planning Commission, my concern is that we're starting to see a lot more of these little carved out used car lots, and those have a whole different operation. Its something I think we all need to take into consideration as far as is that a positive economic impact or a negative economic impact?. But when you have a larger parcel, you've got the ability to maneuver on that. You also have the supporting operation. So even though this used to be part, or maybe it was the used car end, it was a much larger piece of property that had a garage where cars could be maintained and so forth. I'm looking at this and I'm saying, well, how are the cars transported? What's the maneuverability on this site? If I bring in a car transport, can I actually move into this site? If you look at the driveway and because it used to be part of the Oldsmobile site and it is no longer directly adjacent to this site, R's on the neighboring property, it doesn't lend itself to that any longer. What will end up happening is that people miss that October 9, 2012 25362 driveway. The sign for Hertz is in front of Hertz. The driveway is in the adjacent parcel. So they miss that driveway and they end up in ours. What they end up doing then, because if you look at the site plan there, we just had a very long driveway that goes to our rear lot that happens to be adjacent to theirs. So people just pull in and they slop in there and then they go down the hill. You know what? It's a small and its a modest operation right now, so we don't have a ton of traffic in there. But as we start to increase those cars, increase the traffic, I think we're going to increase that impact and that's something that as a business I dont want to see. So I don't think that this site as it stands right now is really designed and is conducive to that type of an operation. If it was a larger site and it had more room in there, maybe it could be accommodated. As with the PRDA, I think we'd like to see that the driveway is either moved to the front of this building so that it's obvious that this is the business that you're entering, or that the sign is moved to the driveway so that people know where they're entering. It's a little confusing to the users. Again, a low modest use right now, we can deal with it, but as you increase that impact, it's going to be a bigger problem. I think that's something you have to consider. Also, I don't know how the vehicles are off loaded here, but cleady if that is going to be something that has any type of car transport, I think you need to look at maneuverability on this site or you're creating a traffic issue out onto Plymouth Road. You always want to have maneuverability. You used to have that on the Oldsmobile site. You don't on this site any longer. The Oldsmobile building has been torn down. None of us know what the sales are going to be. So as we look at this whole corridor, I think we want to start to pay attention to all of these little used car lots that are popping up and whether or not that's going to be a positive or a negafive, and how does that translate into the adjacent properties. So that's my thoughts and my concerns and clearly, as part of the PRDA, I'd like to see that landscaping brought out. I'd like to make sure there's prohibition to parking cars in that right-of-way. We do see that on some of the other used car lots. I've got to believe it's a real maintenance headache for ordinance folks because they actually park out in the right-of-way to display vehicles. I'd like to see that not happen here. Mr. Taylor: All along Plymouth Road, as a matter of fact Mr. Hiltz: Yes. So let's not continue that problem. That right now, it's paved out all the way to the sidewalk and it's really welcoming that on this particular site. I think it needs to be pulled back. We'd like to see some landscaping there. From the adjacent property owner, I'd like the driveway issue addressed in some October 9, 2012 25363 way, shape or form and understand how those patrons are going to be handled on off hours. A lot of times, used car lots like to block off those driveways so people don't have easy access to those vehicles so they find places to park and walk into the site. I have a sneaking suspicion that the driveway is going to be that spot, and I'd rather that not happen. Again, if it was a much, much larger properly, it probably would have some kind of available parking within the site. So, if you're going to approve this, then I guess I'd like to see that there is space made available within the site for even after hours viewing so that all spaces aren't taken up with car sales or the car rentals, that there are places for visitors to use even after off hours. That's a security issue but we also have to recognize that there is an impact to adjacent properties. Thank you. Mr. Morrow: Is there anyone else? Seeing no one else, is there anything you'd like to comment on before I close the public hearing? Mr. Wilds: Definitely. He mentioned a couple things that I would like to talk about real quick. Maintenance on the vehicles. All the inspections will be done out of the airport. Like I said, we do 72 point inspections. So coming there, the cars should be in good shape at this point. With the actual transportation, we use individual drivers so there are no semi trucks going in and out any of our lots. Even if you have a bigger lot, there's much room for accidents and whatnot to happen with that. We use our local drivers. Anytime a customer does have a "hey, my lire doesn't look as full as it should be" or "hey, my brakes," we would be using a local vendor, which would bring business to them, maybe a local Firestone or Car -Ex or anything like that that you'd have here. I do agree with you about the sign. I don't know your sign ordinances off the lop of my head or anything, but it's in the middle of our property, which I can see how someone would easily pass that. I believe it should be closer to where the entrance would be. And then the whole concept of blocking off our lot, we don't block off any of our lots. We want people to come and walk our cars any time day or night. Any cars that would be on the driveway, we don't use that at all. Just come and go as you like. Mr. Morrow: Thank you. I'm starting to get some more requests. Mr. Wilshaw: When a tabling motion comes up, there will be no discussion after that point, so I want to try to get this in before that. Just so I can understand your business a little bit better, maybe take a look at it if this does get tabled, do you have any other facilities in the Metro Detroit area that are currently providing or selling used cars? October 9, 2012 25364 Mr. Wilds: Not at this time, but I will open up Woodhaven hopefully by the end of the month. I just hired someone. Mr. Wilshaw: Woodhaven. Okay. Mr. Wilds: Woodhaven, Michigan. Mr. Wilshaw: Very good. Thankyou. Ms. Smiley: Did you look at the airport as a possible site for cars to be sold? Mr. Wilds: We have in the past, and the issue with that is because there's so many cars and so much traffic that goes in and out of the airport, to have a retail customer walk in on that lot would not be very safe. It's a great idea though. Il would be fantastic. Ms. Smiley: I mean it's all right there. I kind of agree that there's a lot of used cars for sale on Plymouth Road, and I'd like to see more of a mixture of businesses. A rental, just by what you told us, is not very intrusive because there's very limited cars out there. I've rented from Hertz and I go in and order a car pretty much, and it comes from the airport. I mean I dont gel it right off the lot that day. So I'm feeling kind of negafive about it for that reason that the area seems to be well served with used cars for sale. That's my thought on it, but I'm one Commissioner. Mr. Wilds: I will say this, though. Our rental business will always exceed our car sale business. If it grows to the point where we exceed our rental business, we'd have to move to a full size lot. We will do hundreds of more rental transactions that we will do car sale transactions. Mr. Morrow: Mr. Hiltz, did you have something to add? Mr. Hiltz: Just wondering again, I like the idea from an operation within the site that using individual drivers is great. My question is more about the ordinance. Does the waiver go with the property or does it go with the business? Mr. Morrow: It goes with the property. It can be conditioned if it's offered by the petitioner. We cant mandate it. If they want to make it part of it, they can. Mr. Hiltz: The way they're going to operate it might work, but if they were to vacate it and it slays with the property, the next user may not. So its something to consider. October 9, 2012 25365 Mr. Morrow: We do consider that in some cases. Are you all set, young man? Mr. Wilds: I guess the only thing I would say is I think there's a stereotype of a used car lot. I guess I should have brought you pictures of the ones that we have up in different areas of the country. It's not the banners and balloons and a 1972 Cordoba sitting out there. Its a fantastic car if you ever gel a chance to ride in one. Like I said, they're all nice cars. Anywhere from Infinity, Volvo's down to your Nissan Senlra's. It's a different mix with it. Mr. Morrow: Its a low profile used car. Mr. Wilds: Yes. Like the one we have in Des Plaines, Illinois. If there wasn't a sign that said Hertz Car Sales, they'd think they were rental cars. It's not really in your face, if that makes sense. We gel our business from online. Ms. Smiley: Just one thought. You might want to go see the PRDA. They carry a lot of weight, with me anyway. Mr. Wilds: Okay. Mr. Morrow: As I see no one else coming forward, I'm going to close the public hearing and ask for a motion. Mr. Taylor: I would like to offer a motion to delay this unfit another meeting so that they have a chance to bring us back some of the questions that we have tonight, along with the fact of exactly what the business is. It sounds like its more of a car rental business, and by the way, we'll sell some of the cars if you want to buy them. I think that's the way the business is going, and that's what the main business is. So I'm just asking for a tabling motion. I guess I won't have a time certain. I see we have a meeting on the 301h. I don't know whether they can get it a site plan back here by then. I would suggest that they also have architect lake a look and see what's been going on Plymouth Road and satisfy the Plymouth Road Development Authority as to the type of fencing. They have black fencing. They have shrubbery and those types of things to update the whole parcel there. I think it can be updated. Plus the fact that I think it would help if we had something to do with how the driveway is used and what kind of a lease they have on the driveway. Mr. Morrow: Mr. Taylor, before we get any type of a second on the motion to table, are you suggesting that they go back to the PRDA for another review? ITEM #4 PETMON 2012-09-02-21 KOHL'S Ms. Scheel, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2012- 09-02-21 submitted by Kohl's Department Stores, Inc. requesting to amend Council Resolution #429-08 adopted on September 24, 2008, in order to extend the Kohl's store operating hours at Livonia Marketplace at 29578 Seven Mile Road, located on the north side of Seven Mile Road between Middlebell Road and Purlingbrook Avenue in the Southwest 114 of Section 2, from 12:00 a.m. midnight through 6:00 a.m. on Friday, November 23, 2012 (the day after Thanksgiving), and for each subsequent year beginning at midnight of Thanksgiving Day. Mr. Taormina: Livonia Marketplace received waiver use approval for a Planned General Development back in September of 2008. A condifion of that approval specified "that the hours of operation of any big box retail facility on the property shall not exceed eighteen (18) hours." Kohl's is seeking to amend the condition that limits their October 9, 2012 25366 Mr. Taylor: I think that would help. That would help in making our decision. If they go back to the PRDA and sell their product there, because it weighs heavily on this Board and on the Council. Mr. Morrow: So do you want to put that in a form of a motion? On a motion by Taylor, seconded by Wilshaw, and unanimously adopted, it was #10-85-2012 RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on October 9, 2012, on Petition 2012-09-02-20 submitted by The Hertz Corporation requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 11.03(8) of the City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended, to operate a used auto dealership with outdoor display of vehicles at 33910 Plymouth Road, located on the north side of Plymouth Road between Farmington Road and Stark Avenue in the Southeast 114 of Section 28, which properly is zoned C-2 and RU F, the Planning Commission does hereby table this matter, Mr. Morrow, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. The item has been tabled. As there were a lot of comments from the Commission and from the PRDA, I'd like to see if we can overoome some of those objections. We will have an open dale whenever you want to come back to us, and Mr. Taormina will schedule you on our agenda. We have satisfied the public hearing part of R. ITEM #4 PETMON 2012-09-02-21 KOHL'S Ms. Scheel, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2012- 09-02-21 submitted by Kohl's Department Stores, Inc. requesting to amend Council Resolution #429-08 adopted on September 24, 2008, in order to extend the Kohl's store operating hours at Livonia Marketplace at 29578 Seven Mile Road, located on the north side of Seven Mile Road between Middlebell Road and Purlingbrook Avenue in the Southwest 114 of Section 2, from 12:00 a.m. midnight through 6:00 a.m. on Friday, November 23, 2012 (the day after Thanksgiving), and for each subsequent year beginning at midnight of Thanksgiving Day. Mr. Taormina: Livonia Marketplace received waiver use approval for a Planned General Development back in September of 2008. A condifion of that approval specified "that the hours of operation of any big box retail facility on the property shall not exceed eighteen (18) hours." Kohl's is seeking to amend the condition that limits their October 9, 2012 25367 hours in order to stay open for 24 hours on one day only - from midnight on Thanksgiving to midnight on Friday the day after Thanksgiving. This would allow Kohl's to slay open an additional six hours. And similar to other petitions, all other conditions of the waiver use approval, including truck delivery limitations, would remain unchanged. Thank you. Mr. Morrow: Is there any correspondence? Mr. Taormina: There are four items of correspondence. The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated September 20, 2012, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above -referenced request of Kohl's Department Stores, Inc., to have extended operating hours the day after the Thanksgiving Holiday. This request will have no impact on any roadways or utilities under the purview of the Engineering Division of Public Works, and hence we have no objection to this request" The letter is signed by Kevin G. Roney, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The second letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated September 21, 2012, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the plans for approving this petition to extend store operating hours from 12.00 a.m. midnight through 6.00 a.m. on Friday, November 23, 2012 (the day after Thanksgiving), and for each subsequent year beginning at midnight of Thanksgiving Day at the above referenced address. I have no objections to this proposal." The letter is signed by Earl W. Fesler, Fire Marshal. The third letter is from the Division of Police, dated September 20, 2012, which reads as follows: 7 have reviewed the request in connection with the captioned petition and have no objections. The Police Department will provide special attention to the store prior to its opening time." The letter is signed by John Gibbs, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The fourth letter is from the Inspection Department, dated September 19, 2012, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the above -referenced petition has been reviewed. This Department has no objections to this petition." The letter is signed by Alex Bishop, Director of Inspection. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. Morrow: Are there any questions for the staff? Gentlemen, I think you're up. We will need your name and address for the record please. Tyler D. Tennent, Esq., Dawda, Mann, Mulcahy & Sadler, P.L.C., 39533 Woodward, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan 48304. I am local counsel to Kohl's. We thank you for allowing us to appear this evening. As Mark indicated, Kohl's is simply requesting a very short and temporary extension of hours, that is the six hours October 9, 2012 25368 between 12:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. on the day after Thanksgiving and for each year thereafter. Kohl's received site plan approval fairly recently, in April of 2011, and it's been opened since March of 2012. As a result of its recent approval, construction and opening, there had been this Planned Development Agreement restricting hours of large box retailers to 18 hours a day. So Kohl's had to live with that. Kohl's is closed on Thanksgiving, and it needs to open at midnight to slay competitive and to coincide with the traditional Black Fnday sales mode of most retailers in the area. Throughout the country, there are only a few Kohl's stores that are not opening at midnight on that day. By our count, there are about six and there 1,100 stores nationwide that will otherwise open at midnight. So the national advertising, of course, will advertise this. Since Livonia has an otherwise very friendly business environment, as I've witnessed here this evening, it seems that extending hours on this one day for this very short time shouldn't be a major deal. But Kohl's has had a very good business experience for the City and surrounding residents. The store is doing very well. Livonia residents shop there. And other than a noisy generator problem they had during an area wide power outage, which I think the Planning Commission has heard about in other contexts, we have had no complaints and there haven't been any violations issued by the City. With me here today are two representatives of Kohl's, Kali Schmitz, who is the HR Manager for the store, and Jim Azur, who is the store's Loss Prevention Manager, who can explain perhaps in a little bit more detail about how the operations exist and answer any of your questions. Mr. Morrow: Thankyou. Kali Schmitz, Kohl's Department Store, 29578 Seven Mile Road, Livonia, Michigan 48152. Good evening. Mr. Morrow: Is there anything you want to add? Ms. Schmitz: Just that we appreciate your time. As I stated before, we are looking just for this one day for the six hours to stay competitive, keep the revenue, our building, keep the tax in Livonia, keep our customers satisfied because that's our number one goal is to be able to open up when the customers need us, and the day after Thanksgiving is the time that the customers like to shop. Mr. Morrow: Okay. We'll see if the Commission has any questions. October 9, 2012 25369 Ms. Smiley: Did you just confess to the generator problem that Walmarl took all the heat for? I'm just kidding. You said there's only six stores that aren't open. Is that nationwide or in Michigan? Ms. Schmitz: Nationwide. There aren't any in Michigan. Ms. Smiley: Exceplyou. Ms. Schmitz: Except me. Correct. Ms. Smiley: Which we're working to change this evening. Okay. Thank you very much. Mr. Wilshaw: We've asked some of these questions at our study meeting. You heard these of Target and the other petitioners have asked for this type of request. Can you explain to us how your business operates? What's going to happen at midnight when you open? How are you going to management the crowd? What's the mad dash going to be to that hot item? How is that all going to work? Ms. Schmitz: Okay. As Kohl's operates, we are very different from the Walmart and the Target that I've heard discussed. We don't have that $100 TV. We have great deals but it's not that mad rush that other retailers get. We offer great deals on toys mainly, gifts for Christmas, appliances, things like that that we have an abundance of and they're open to all shoppers at any time. The better deals will happen starting at midnight and go on for several hours there afterward. We maintain crowd control. There will be stanchions set up outside the doors along the front of the building to keep everybody in one line. There will be associates from the store and loss prevention security that are out there talking to the customers. We also pass out maps of the store. We talk to them, get a feel for what they're looking for. There actually has been talk just this year of looking to hire an outside vendor to bring coffee in to offer to the customers that are waiting outside. In my experience, and I know this to be true from the past several years working in this area coming from Farmington Hills, at that time and opening at midnight last year, there's not going to be I would say more than about 50 people that are either in line or wailing in their cars to come in at that time. They are very civil. I've never seen any kind of aggravation or anybody rushing to gel to one spot. They all come in. We open one door at a time. They come in just single file and then they spread out to whatever area they need to go to. It works out very well. Except that the Kohl's store at 29578 Seven Mile Road shall be permitted to extend its operating hours one (1) day out of the year from 12:00 a.m. midnight through 6:00 a.m. on Friday, November 23, 2012 (the day after Thanksgiving) only, commencing at midnight of Thanksgiving Day and ending at midnight on Fnday the day after Thanksgiving; day after Thanksgiving, and the Council may consider this matter again in 2013 upon the subsequent request of the Petitioner; 2. That the Petitioner will work with the City Inspection and Public Safety Departments to make sure that appropriate safety measures are put in place to accommodate the additional store operating hours; and October 9, 2012 25370 Mr. Wilshaw: I just want to thank you for staying here to watch good government in action and hope that you didn't have to pay Mr. Tennent for all this time and cul into your profits that you might make on Black Friday. Ms. Schmitz: No problem. Mr. Morrow: Anyone else? I don't see anyone in the audience, so I don't think anyone will come forward. If there are no other questions, I'm going to close the public hearing and ask for a motion. On a motion by Scheel, seconded by Smiley, and unanimously adopted, it was #10-86-2012 RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on October 9, 2012, on Petition 2012-09-02-21 submitted by Kohl's Department Stores, Inc. requesting to amend Council Resolution #429-08 adopted on September 24, 2008, in order to extend the Kohl's store operating hours at Livonia Marketplace at 29578 Seven Mile Road, located on the north side of Seven Mile Road between Middlebell Road and Purlingbrook Avenue in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 2, from 12:00 a.m. midnight through 6:00 a.m. on Friday, November 23, 2012 (the day after Thanksgiving), and for each subsequent year beginning at midnight of Thanksgiving Day, which properly is zoned C-2 and P, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 2012-09-02-21, as amended, be approved subject to the following conditions: 1. That condition #23 of Council Resolution #429-08 which reads, "Thal the hours of operation of any big box retail facility on the properly shall not exceed eighteen (18) hours" shall be modified to include the following: Except that the Kohl's store at 29578 Seven Mile Road shall be permitted to extend its operating hours one (1) day out of the year from 12:00 a.m. midnight through 6:00 a.m. on Friday, November 23, 2012 (the day after Thanksgiving) only, commencing at midnight of Thanksgiving Day and ending at midnight on Fnday the day after Thanksgiving; day after Thanksgiving, and the Council may consider this matter again in 2013 upon the subsequent request of the Petitioner; 2. That the Petitioner will work with the City Inspection and Public Safety Departments to make sure that appropriate safety measures are put in place to accommodate the additional store operating hours; and October 9, 2012 25371 3. That all other conditions imposed by Council Resolution #429-08, which granted approval for a Planned General Development consisting of a total of approximately 320,180 square feel of retail building area (Livonia Marketplace), shall remain in effect to the extent that they are not in conflict with the foregoing conditions. Subject to the preceding conditions, this petition is approved for the following reason: 1. That by allowing Kohl's to stay open an additional six (6) hours on the busiest shopping day of the year is in the best interests of the public including public safety; and 2. That all other conditions of the waiver use approval, including lmck delivery limitations, would remain unchanged. FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. Mr. Morrow: Is there any discussion? Ms. Scheel: I wanted to make sure we put the same wording in here that we did previously to show that for subsequent years, they would just need to go back to Council. Mr. Morrow: Is that agreeable? Ms. Smiley: Totally. Mr. Morrow, Chairman, declared the motion is carded and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM #5 APPROVAL OF MINUTES 1,030'" Public Hearings and Regular Meeting Ms. Scheel, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of the Minutes of the 1,030'" Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held on September 25, 2012. October 9, 2012 25372 On a motion by Wilshaw, seconded by Scheel, and adopted, it was #10-87-2012 RESOLVED, that the Minutes of 1,030th Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held by the Planning Commission on September 25, 2012, are hereby approved. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Wilshaw, Scheel, Bahr, Smiley, Krueger, Taylor, Morrow NAYS: None ABSENT: None ABSTAIN: None Mr. Morrow, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 1,031" Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held on October 9, 2012, was adjourned at 9:56 p.m. CIN PLANNING COMMISSION Lynda L. Scheel, Secretary ATTEST: R. Lee Morrow, Chairman