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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPLANNING MINUTES 2000-01-11 17391 MINUTES OF THE 798th REGULAR MEETING HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA On Tuesday. January 11, 2000, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its 798th Regular Meeting in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan. Mr. James C. McCann, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. Members present: James C. McCann Robert Alanskas Dan Piercecchi William LaPine Michael Hale Elaine Koons * H. G. Shane Members absent: None Messrs. Mark Taormina, Planning Director, Al Nowak, Planner IV, Scott Miller, Planner II and Bill Poppenger, Planner I were also present. Chairman McCann informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the City Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing, and will make the final determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If a petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan is denied tonight, the petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become effective seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission and the professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their filing. The staff has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying resolutions which the Commission may. or may not, use depending on the outcome of the proceedings tonight. We will begin with the Miscellaneous Site Plans for our agenda. * Ms. Koons arrived at approximately 8:00 p.m. ITEM #1 PETITION 99-11-8-29 DeMattia Associates (Livonia YMCA) Mr. Hale, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda is Petition 99-11-8-29 by DeMattia Associates, on behalf of the Livonia YMCA, requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of the Zoning Ordinance in connection with a proposal to construct an addition to the facility located at 14255 Stark Road in the Southeast 1/4 of Section 21. Mr. Miller: This site is located on the west side of Stark Road between Schoolcraft and Lyndon. The Livonia YMCA is requesting approval to construct an addition to their existing facility. The new addition would be 10,500 sq. ft. in size and 17392 would be located next to the southwest corner of the current building. The new structure is in reality a free standing building because it is separated from the main facility by some 10 ft. with connections only from the existing tennis building and lower gymnasium. The reason for the separation is due to the fact that if the addition were attached to the existing structure, both sets of walls would have to be fire rated and a sprinkler system would have to be installed throughout both buildings. In a letter dated November 5, 1999, submitted with the plans, the petitioner explains that the addition would house an additional basketball court and would be constructed in an area that is presently utilized as a fenced-in outdoor storage and activity area. The letter goes on to further explain that because this area has limited public exposure no additional landscaping is planned other than maintaining the existing lawn areas. Additional parking for the expansion shall be provided by the adjacent school's (Frost) parking lot to the south. In a second letter dated December 17, 1999, the petitioner has stated that the agreement for sharing parking with the school is being finalized by the YMCA administration. A new lighted walkway would be constructed from the school's parking lot tot he addition's entrance. The main outside entrance of the proposed addition would be located on the east elevation. Mr. McCann: Is there any correspondence? Mr. Taormina: There are five items of correspondence. The first item is a letter from the Engineering Division dated November 29, 1999, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. The Engineering Division has no objections to the proposal at this time. We trust that this will provide you with the information requested." The letter is signed by David Lear, P.E., Civil Engineer. The second item is a letter from the Division of Police dated November 29, 1999, and reads as follows: "I have no concerns or recommendations about the site plan submitted for the addition to the UMCA." The letter is signed by John B. Gibbs, Police Officer, Traffic Bureau. The third item is a letter from the Livonia Fire & Rescue, dated December 9, 1999, and reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request to construct an addition to the YMCA facility on property located at the above referenced address. We have no objections to this proposal provided appropriate separation is provided between the existing building and the new addition." The letter is signed by James E. Corcoran, Fire Marshal. We have two letters from the Inspection Department. The first one is dated December 6, 1999, and reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request of November 16, 1999, the site plan for the above petition has been reviewed. For your consideration the following is noted. (1) The shared parking agreement should be submitted to the City in the form of an appropriate legal instrument. (2) As proposed the addition does not appear to meet the minimum building separation requirements as identified in table 705.2 of the 1996 Edition of the B.O.C.A. National Building Guide. (3) The minimum side yard setback for R-2 districts is six feet. The proposed entrance canopy appears to encroach into the required setback by three feet. I trust this has provided the requested information." The second letter is dated December 17, 1999, and reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request the revised 17393 site plan A-2 dated 12/15/99 has been reviewed. Relevant to the above subject petition, the revised plan remedied the building separation and setback requirements. The only outstanding issue would be the shared parking agreement. Both letters from the Inspection Department are signed by David M. Woodcox, Senior Building Inspector. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. McCann: Is the petitioner here this evening? Eugene Chun, DeMattia Group, 45501 Helm Street, Plymouth. MI 48170. The only additional information I might add is the notation on these boards which are shown in colors, the current design scheme for the project is displayed. The general theme is not to imitate necessarily the two existing pre-engineering buildings which are in close proximity to each other, but to have a little bit of inter-play with the difference in color to set them apart. What I have here are some colors that are closer to the actual material. It would be the metal siding, which would be above the concrete masonry unit base. This would be done in a decorative block and single scored to give essentially a grid pattern with a flat face. This would be the color selected for that. We have a lighter band on the bottom and a darker band on the top as opposed to the lighter siding that currently exists with a darker band. Mr. McCann: Are there any questions from Commissioners? `�- Mr. Shane: At the study meeting you mentioned that you were recommending that the existing building be painted a color compatible with what you are proposing. Is that part of this plan now? Mr. Chun: This is not officially a part of this construction plan. The existing building is a painted block, as well. In anticipation of the requirement for painting at some date within the next five years, the recommendation would be to consider a color that might be in keeping with this. However, these colors are selected so that they would be compatible with the existing colors. This is currently less of a gray, which my preference would be to go more to a gray in this family, it is more of a dark brown at this point. But we have this combination of the siding which is more of a warm gray almost leaning towards a green and this brown. These four existing colors, there is a slight difference here that we tried to render with these markers. This slight difference would certainly be acceptable. It is just that in the future or if in the near future, with the maintenance program we are going to repaint this wall, that is where I think the recommendation to go closer to one of these might be considered. Mr. Piercecchi: The building that we were just referring to, isn't that sort of a blue green paint on that building? On the lower end. Mr. Chun: No. It is currently a dark brown. ti.. Mr. Piercecchi: Where is the blue? 17394 Mr. Chun: I think it is around the front. I don't recall the blue offhand. There are a number of materials on the entire complex. There is brick. There are a number of decorative masonry units but in this particular elevation I am absolutely certain, because I have studied it, that this is almost like a dark reddish brown. Mr. Piercecchi Is that complimentary to the other colors? Mr. Chun: Yes sir. These are in the warm family and our particular preference from a design standpoint is to maybe give this a little bit more of a dramatic look. Mr. Piercecchi: This blue color I mention, I observed this from the parking lot. Mr. Chun: From the YMCA parking lot? Mr. Piercecchi: No, from the school's parking lot. Mr. Churn: From the school parking lot? Mr. Piercecchi: Yes. I thought it looked really out of place. Lori Uranga, I am with the YMCA. My home address is 8315 Wildwood Lane, Ann Arbor. The blue that you are discussing is on the block wall of the existing tennis court and it was painted by our day camp program. That wall will be behind the new building. Nuy Mr. Piercecchi: It seems that the only issue left outstanding according to Mark Taormina was the shared agreement. Has that been finalized? Ms. Uranga: I have a copy of the memorandum of agreement right now. We have one issue remaining with the school district which is a light pole in the parking lot and we have a meeting with David Watson on Friday to finalize that. We are meeting at 1:30. Mr. Piercecchi: The Council will assist on that and give their final stamp of approval. Thank you. Mr. Alanskas: I thought at this study meeting that you had said that that building was going to be painted at the time you did this new construction on the new building, not five years down the road. I know you said you painted the building every five years but I thought it was stated that you were going to paint it now to coincide with the new building. Tonight you are saying you may paint it three or four years down the road. Ms. Uranga: I can address that. What we have currently is we have a bid estimate that we are carrying and if we go out to bid, if there is some additional savings, we will then have the block painted. We have a limited budget. It comes from United Way ... and our capital campaign for this project and we are trying to maintain, if we go out for bids and there is additional savings then one of the objects is to paint that block wall. 17395 Mr. Alanskas: Is it true that you do paint the part that has to be painted every year for maintenance purposes or is it longer? Noir- Ms. Uranga: I unfortunately cannot answer that. Mr. Chun: I think five years is approximately correct. Mr. Alanskas: What kind of paint do you use? Is it latex or an enamel? Mr. Chun: These days, it would probably be a latex. Mr. Alanskas: Within five years, if it needs a touch up, you would take care of the maintenance and touch it up? Ms. Uranga: We are going to be implementing a preventive maintenance program for all of our facilities. We have a new department being developed and that definitely would be part of our program. Mr. Alanskas: I would hope it would fit in your budget to paint it now and to make the building look like all one piece. Thank you. Mr. LaPine: Ms. Uganda, if it isn't painted at the time of the new construction, we have no control after we get through with this and Council, so we are hoping that we can r.. count on you and that when it is painted it will match the colors and that somebody doesn't take an idea to paint it some other color. Can we agree on that? Ms. Uranga: We can agree on that. Mr. LaPine: Thank you. Mr. McCann: If there are no further questions from the Commissioners, I will go to the audience. Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against this petition? Seeing no one, a motion is in order. On a motion by Mr. LaPine, seconded by Mr. Shane and approved, it was #01-01-2000 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 99-11-8-29 by DeMattia Associates, on behalf of the Livonia YMCA, requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of the Zoning Ordinance in connection with a proposal to construct an addition to the facility located at 14255 Stark Road in the Southeast 1/4 of Section 21 be approved subject to the following conditions: 1) That the site plan marked Sheet A-1 prepared by DeMattia Associates dated 12/15/99, as revised, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2) That all disturbed lawn areas shall be sodded in lieu of hydroseeding; 17396 3) That the exterior building elevation plan marked Sheet A-3 prepared by DeMattia Associates dated 12/15/99, as revised, is hereby approved and New shall be adhered to; 4) That all approvals are based on the petitioner providing the City of Livonia with an agreement for shared parking between the YMCA and Frost School; 5) That the parking area designated in the agreement shall be resealed and double striped; 6) That no signs, either freestanding or wall mounted, are approved with this petition. All such signage shall be separately submitted for review and approval by the Planning Commission and City Council. A roll call vote was taken with the following result: AYES: Alanskas, LaPine, Piercecchi, Shane, Hale NAYS: None ABSENT: Koons ABSTAIN: McCann Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. ITEM #2 PETITION 99-11-08-30 Medora Building Co. (Commercial Lawnmower) Mr. Hale, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 99-11-08-30 by Medora Building Company, on behalf of Commercial Lawnmower, requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of the Zoning Ordinance in connection with a proposal to renovate the exterior elevations of the commercial building located at 32098 Plymouth Road in the southeast 1/4 of Section 27. Mr. Miller: This site is located on the north side of Plymouth Road between Merriman and Hubbard. The existing building on this site was most recently occupied by the House of Maple Furniture Store. Immediately west of the property is the Tenpenny Furniture Store and further west of that is the Bill Brown Auto Dealership and to the east is the Fonte D' Amore Restaurant. The petitioner is requesting approval to renovate the exterior building elevations of the existing building on the site. The reason for the request is so Commercial Lawnmower can move its business from its present location, which is near the southwest corner of Wayne Road and Plymouth Road. As part of this proposal, the petitioner would be demolishing a 30 ft. x 115 ft. section off the southeast corner of the building. This area would be replaced with parking spaces and the new facade would become the main entrance into the store. A note on the Site Plan states the parking lot to the rear of the building would be restriped. The elevation plan shows that the south elevation(facing Plymouth Road) would have the existing entrance replaced by a new brick facade and windows. Running along the top of this elevation would be a 5 ft. band of dryvit. The east 17397 elevation(facing the restaurant), where the portion of the existing building is to be torn down, would be similar in appearance to the south elevation. The '410e. facade would have the new main entrance incorporated into it and would be completed with a combination of bricks and windows. The 5 ft. band of dryvit would also run along the top of this section. A dryvit structural canopy would extend out and protect the new main entrance. The remaining masonry block walls of the rest of the building would only be painted. Mr. McCann: Is there any correspondence? Mr. Taormina: There are four items of correspondence. The first is a letter from the Engineering Department, dated November 29, 1999, and reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. The Engineering Division has no objections to the proposal at this time. We trust that this will provide you with the information requested." The letter is signed by David Lear, P.E., Civil Engineer. The second item is a letter from the Division of Police, dated November 29, 1999, and reads as follows: "In response to the captioned petition, the Police Department has no objection to the site plan as submitted. I am recommending that the site plan include a sign for each handicap parking space; as required in the Michigan Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices." The letter is signed by John B. Gibbs, Police Officer, Traffic Bureau. The third item is a letter from the Inspection Department, dated December 6, 1999, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request of November 16, 1999, the site plan for the above �.. subject petition has been reviewed. Providing that the parking areas are double striped, the Inspection Department would have no objection to the above proposal." The letter is signed by David M. Woodcox. The fourth item is a letter from the Livonia Fire & Rescue, dated December 16, 1999, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request to renovate the exterior elevations of the commercial building on property located at the above referenced address. We have no objections to this proposal." The letter is signed by James E. Corcoran, Fire Marshal. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. McCann: Is the petitioner here this evening? John Murphy, Commercial Lawnmower, 32098 Plymouth Road, Livonia. I am willing to answer any questions you may have. My builder was suppose to be here with a color site plan and I am unable to reach him right now. Mr. McCann: We can either wait for him to get here or we can go forward, if you are ready. Mr. Murphy: I am ready. Mr. McCann: Do you want to tell us anything additional that we haven't heard so far? Are you moving your store and why you are doing it and what is it all about? Mr. Murphy: Basically, we have been in business in Livonia for 21 years and have started our 22nd year. We have learned a lot over those 21 years. For example, where we 17398 are located on Plymouth and Wayne Roads, it is extremely difficult for people turning left into there. Feed back from customers, especially elderly customers, ,ur- at 3:30 in the afternoon when the plant lets out, it is extremely difficult to get out of there. I have been renting for the last year and a half from the back of House of Maple and Pine, assembling equipment. I also have a couple of other warehouses around the city. When I met with the owner and we discussed buying the building, it will allow me to move out of the other warehouses I am renting. It will allow us to make a lot better presentation to the customers. It moves us to a better location for entry and exit. It allows us to basically quadruple our sales floor, our parts department and our service department which will allow us to become more efficient. The site was an eyesore to the city and I think our plans and what we hope to do will make it a nice looking location. Mr. McCann: Are there any questions from the Commissioners? Mr. Alanskas: Mr. Murphy, how many employees do you have at your present location? Mr. Murphy: Fourteen. Mr. Alanskas: How many will you have at your new larger location? Mr. Murphy: Actually, the increase may only be about one or two employees, possibly a couple more part time people. We are not planning on adding a lot of people. Mr. Alanskas: What are the plans for the building you are leaving? Is it going to be left vacant or do you have someone going in there? Mr. Murphy: The owner of that building is George Laforest and he is here tonight but I can speak for him. He has a couple prospective tenants right now. What he is doing is having his property surveyed. His goal is that the new tenant will move into there as soon as we move out. Mr. Alanskas: Is the rental company going to be taking a portion of the old building? Mr. Murphy: That is in discussion right now. It really depends on the tenant that moves in there. The rental business is growing. If anything, it would be taking part of the back of that building, part of the service part. Mr. Alanskas: When I saw you Monday, I said that we appreciate the fact that you are going to go from 0% to 3% landscaping. Could you boost that up to about 10%? Mr. Murphy: When I went before the PRDA I talked to JoAnn Marshall who is the project landscape architect. I asked her if I could be in communication with her so that our landscaping doesn't contrast. We want it to blend with what the City is trying to do. When I had my landscape plan drawn up, we basically used the space that was available because there isn't a lot of space for landscaping. I am open if you have suggestions. Landscaping is something that we could handle fairly easily. 17399 Mr. Alanskas: A lot of stores will put these huge ceramic pots with flowers in there. In other words, it wouldn't have to be in the ground. It could be sitting on concrete. Mr. Murphy: On the east side of the building that wouldn't be a problem. We could probably put one on each end. On the west side, that is a one lane drive coming out of there. Mr. Alanskas: Anything that you could do we would appreciate. I think what you are doing is a nice plan. It is going to make that side of Plymouth Road look very nice. I am glad too that now you will not be putting any of your vehicles out for display. It will all be inside, correct? Mr. Murphy: Correct, with windows all the way across Plymouth Road. We have a riser inside the building and with the building being closer to Plymouth Road, we are excited about having a nice display inside and changing it with the seasons. Mr. Alanskas: O.K. Thank you very much. Mr. LaPine: On your floor plan, you show commercial sales and retail sales. It looks like you have a separate entrance for commercial sales and a separate door for retail sales. Is that the way it operates? Mr. Murphy: No sir. The doors that are on the west side of the building, those will be strictly *Nur for emergency exits. All the entrance will come in off the east side. The reason we have it divided residential up front and commercial in the back is because 22 years ago when we named the business Commercial Lawnmower, some people thought that we didn't sell residential equipment. Mr. LaPine: Do you do repairs at this location? Mr. Murphy: Yes we do. The total north end of the building will be our service facility. Mr. LaPine: O.K. Thank you. Mr. Hale: There won't be any outdoor storage of anything at all, is that correct? Mr. Murphy: No. I think the question Bob was asking is in front of our current store, in the mornings, we pull lawnmowers out in front and in the evening we pull them back in. There will be none of that. The way it is set up right now there will be no outdoor storage at all. Mr. Hale: You are planning on increasing the retail aspects of the business or the sale of products? Mr. Murphy: We are not planning on taking on any more lines, but we are hoping by having a better presentation to the consumer and a better location so our business can grow. 17400 Mr. Hale: Thank you. Mr. Piercecchi: We all appreciate your efforts to increase the landscaping in that area because as you know the PRDA is really spending a lot of time and money in that particular area and has placed two trees in front of that property, isn't that correct? Mr. Murphy: Yes sir. Mr. Piercecchi: Perhaps increasing that 3% on the site. Let's look at it from a different perspective. What is the distance between the two curb cuts on your from the western to the eastern boundary? The west would be where the two trees are. Mr. Murphy: The property is about 120 feet wide. Mr. Piercecchi: You have two trees there. I refer you to what Bill Brown Ford had. In between that long curb cut that they had, they scalped out an area probably 6' to 8' deep and maybe 50' to 60' wide and they planted flowers there in the summer time and I think it added quite a nice touch to their site. Would you consider doing something like that? Mr. Murphy: Absolutely. I think Bill Brown's look great when those flowers bloom. We want people to take notice of our building. Noew Mr. Piercecchi: That is your business, isn't it? Mr. Murphy: Absolutely. Mr. Piercecchi: I would think that more landscaping could be an asset to your business. Mr. Murphy: We have a great customer base of landscapers so that wouldn't be a problem. Mr. Piercecchi: I understood in the beginning that you do not own your current site. Mr. Murphy: Correct. Mr. Piercecchi: I was wondering about that pylon sign. It would be nice to get it out of there if you did own it. But you will look into the possibility of maybe, not exactly a duplicate of Bill Brown, but something in front to add a little bit more landscaping, maybe a percent or two more? Mr. Murphy: That was one of the first things I wanted to do when I bought this building. I thought the sign was rather ugly so we tore it down. Mr. Shane: There are five parking spaces along the side of your building closest to Plymouth Road. r.. Mr. Murphy: On the east side of the building? 17401 Mr. Shane: Yes. Would you have a problem with losing one of those parking spaces? Mr. Murphy: Not at all. You are talking about the closest ones to Plymouth Road running parallel there? Mr. Shane: Right. The specific one I am talking about is the closest one to the sidewalk. Mr. Murphy: No. That wouldn't be an issue. Mr. Shane: That way you have a little bit more landscaping You could put the flowers that Dan talked about or some other plant material. Mr. Murphy: I think what you are talking about is basically right on the property line between ourselves and Fonte D'Amore? Mr. Shane: Right. Mr. Murphy: I don't have a problem with that as long as there is no problem with Fonte D'Amore. You are talking about building a planter there and put some flowers in? Mr. Shane: This space right here. Mr. Murphy: Oh, I know what you mean. Our plan is to bring out, right along here, an N'"' island and have landscaping there. It doesn't show on the plan. Mr. McCann: If there is nothing further, I am going to go the audience. Is there anybody in the audience wishing to speak for or against this petition? Seeing no one wishing to speak, a motion is in order. On a motion by Mr. Hale, seconded by Mr. Piercecchi, and unanimously approved, it was #01-02-2000 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 99-11-8-30 by Medora Building Company, on behalf of Commercial Lawnmower, requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of the Zoning Ordinance in connection with a proposal to renovate the exterior elevations of the commercial building located at 32098 Plymouth Road in the Southeast 1/4 of Section 27 be approved subject to the following conditions: 1) That the site plan marked Sheet SD-1 prepared by GAV Associates dated 11/08/99, as revised, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2) That the landscape plan marked Sheet SD-1 prepared by GAV Associates dated 11/05/99, as revised, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; r•- 3) That all disturbed lawn areas shall be sodded in lieu of hydroseeding; 17402 4) That all underground sprinklers are to be provided for all landscaped and sodded areas and all planted materials shall be installed to the satisfaction of r.• the Inspection Department and thereafter permanently maintained in a healthy condition; 5) That the exterior building elevation plan marked Sheet A-2 prepared by GAV Associates dated 11/08/99, as revised, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 6) That the brick used in the construction of the building shall be full face 4- inch brick, no exceptions; 7) That the three walls of the trash dumpster area shall be constructed out of the same brick used in the construction of the building and the enclosure gates shall be maintained and when not in use, closed at all times; 8) That the entire parking lot shall be repaired, resealed and double striped to the satisfaction of the Inspection Department; 9) That no outdoor storage, placement or display of merchandise shall be permitted at any time on this site; 10) That no signs, either freestanding or wall mounted, are approved with this petition. All such signage shall be separately submitted for review and `ar approval by the Planning Commission and City Council. Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. ITEM #3 PETITION 99-11-SN-12 Millennium Park, L.L.C. (Home Depot) Mr. Hale, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 99-11-SN-12 by Millennium Park, L.L.C., on behalf of Home Depot, requesting approval for signage for the commercial building located at 13500 Middlebelt Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 25. Mr. Miller: This site is located on the south side of Schoolcraft between Middlebelt and Inkster. The applicant is requesting approval for four (4) wall signs for the Home Depot store that is part of the Millennium Park development. This building is presently under construction. All four signs would be internally illuminated. Because the proposed signage is in excess of the number of signs allowed by the sign ordinance, the applicant first had to be granted a variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals prior to being presented to the Planning Commission. A variance (case #9908-103) was granted at the Board's September 21, 1999, Regular Meeting. `' Mr. McCann: Is there any correspondence? 17403 Mr. Taormina: There is one item of correspondence and it is a letter from the Inspection Department, dated November 30, 1999, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request of November 16, 1999, the sign package for the above subject site has been reviewed. As proposed, the sign package conforms to the variance (Appeal Case #9908-103) granted by the Zoning Board of Appeals. This Department would have no objection to the above proposal." The letter is signed by David M. Woodcox, Senior Building Inspector. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. McCann: Is the petitioner here this evening? Mark Drane, T. Rogvoy Architects, 6735 Telegraph Road, Suite 3300, Bloomfield Hills, Mi Mr. McCann: Is there anything additional you would like to tell us? Mr. Drane: No, but I thought if I could take this time to show you the Meijer sign and the monument sign so you could see the entire sign package together it might make a little easier. Mr. McCann: Let's just deal with this one first and then we will move on. Mr. Drane: Sure. Mr. McCann: Are there any questions from the Commissioners? Mr. Alanskas: Mark, when this proposal first came to us I believe it was said this was going to be your retail Home Depot and that the one on Inkster Road was going to be for commercial. Am I right in that assumption? Mr. Drane: I don't know if that is exactly correct. We have a representative here from Home Depot. I think they are both going to be retail outlets. I think the other one is going to be more directed Mr. Alanskas: With your signage, how are you going to identify which one is which if it doesn't say wholesale or retail? Mr. Drane: Because this one is brighter and shinier and everyone is going to know that this is the one that is Mr. Alanskas: So either way, they can go to either building? Mr. Drane: Right. Mr. Alanskas: All right. Thank you. Mr. Piercecchi: Since your signage meets our specs, I really have no objection to your proposal; however, I would like to know why you want all this additional signage compared to the Northville store which really has just a "Home Depot" 17404 and a "nursery" sign which totals 300 sq. ft. This one here is almost 500 sq. ft.? Why do you feel the other signs are necessary? Num. Mr. Drane: One of the underlying design concepts here was to create a village or a building that looks like multiple buildings. Number one, we thought by having these elements on the building, they come into proportion and usefulness by having a sign there. That is just a design and aesthetic point of view. The other thing that we discussed at the Zoning Board of Appeals, unlike this building which is 1400 feet away from Middlebelt and behind a Costco building and I think encumbered by sight lines through everything that is going on on the site, we thought additional signage was appropriate and that was what the Zoning Board of Appeals granted their variance based on. Mr. Piercecchi: I thought at the onset that perhaps it was because of different functions within that building you wanted to highlight that. Mr. Drane: Right. The other function too is that there is a tool-rental, lumber yard and a nursery. This is a multi-functional building. Mr. Piercecchi: This building is obviously quite a bit larger than the one in Northville. Mr. Drane: Mike Clingel from Greenberg Farrell Architects is a Home Depot representative, I think he can probably answer the question. r,,, Mr. Piercecchi: It looks larger anyway when I went by and looked at it. Mr. Drane: I went by there today and I think this one is longer but I think the other one is deeper. I think just to fit the site better. Mr. Piercecchi: Thank you. Mr. McCann: If there are no further questions from the Commissioners, I will go to the audience. Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against this petition? Seeing no one, a motion is in order. On a motion by Mr. Shane, seconded by Mrs. Koons, and unanimously approved, it was #01-03-2000 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 99-11-SN-12 by Millennium Park, L.L.C., on behalf of Home Depot, requesting approval for signage for the commercial building located at 13500 Middlebelt Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 25 to approved subject to the following conditions: 1) That the sign package submitted by Millennium Park, L.L.C., as received by the Planning Commission on November 16, 1999, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2) That all signage for this store shall not be illuminated beyond one (1) hour after this business closes; 17405 3) That any additional signage shall come back before the Planning Commission and City Council for their review and approval. Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. ITEM #4 PETITION 99-11-SN-13 Meijer, Inc. Mr. Hale, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 99-11-SN-13 by Meijer, Inc. requesting approval for signage for the commercial building located at 13000 Middlebelt Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 25. Mr. Miller: This site is located on the south side of Schoolcraft between Middlebelt and Inkster. The applicant is requesting approval for five (5) wall signs for the Meijer Store that is part of the Millennium Park development. This building is presently under construction. All five signs would be internally illuminated. Because the proposed signage is in excess of the number of signs allowed by the sign ordinance and one of the signs would be roof mounted, the applicant first had to be granted a variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals prior to being presented to the Planning Commission. A variance (case #9908-102) was granted at the Board's September 21, 1999 Regular Meeting. Mr. McCann: Is there any correspondence? Mr. Taormina: There is one item of correspondence from the Inspection Department, dated November 30, 1999, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request of November 16, 1999, the sign package for the above subject site has been reviewed. The proposed signage conforms with the variance granted by the Zoning Board of Appeals (Appeal Case #9908-102) with the exception of the two drive thru pharmacy signs. The drive thru pharmacy signs were not identified on sheet 2 as part of this proposal. I trust this has provided the requested information." The letter is signed by David M. Woodcox, Senior Building Inspector. Thank you. Mark Drane, T. Rogvoy Associates, 6735 Telegraph, Suite 3300, Bloomfield Hills, Mi. Again, we came before you with the village scheme. The idea is that we have a multi-functional building. Additional signage would be required for the garden center, pharmacy and the grocery store. The building design reflects what is inside and for those reasons we ask for your recommendation. Mrs. Koons: Is this the same as every other Meijer, 24 hours a day, 360 plus days a year? Mr. Drane: Yes. Mrs. Koons: Unless it is the year 2003 and one less? Mr. Drane: Yes. 17406 Mrs. Koons: Thank you. Mr. Alanskas: What is the size of the Meijer sign on Eight Mile? How many sq. ft.? Where it says just "Meijer's". Mr. Drane: I don't think I can answer that question. I have some representatives from Meijer's. Mr. Alanskas: What is the size of the letter of Meijer for the 418 sq. ft.? Mr. Drane: It is a seven foot high letter. Mr. Alanskas: Could that be reduced to five feet? Let me know why because a few years ago Service Merchandise came before us at the mall and they wanted a sign of that height and we said you are going to see it whether it is five or four feet. You are asking for seven feet, I really don't have any problem with the sign. It looks very nice but I can't see why it has to be seven feet tall. Mr. Drane: Again, this sign is 1600 ft. from Middlebelt Road and I think the design concept proportion wise that that size sign on the roof lends itself to bigger letters. Mr. Alanskas: But you are also going to have signs on Schoolcraft and Middlebelt saying Meijer so people pulling into that area would know that Meijer's is there so why do we need a sign that large on that building, is my question to you? Mr. Drane: My answer is that I believe it will be easier seen from Middlebelt Road and I think proportionately it fits better on the building. Mr. Alanskas: All right. Thank you. Mr. LaPine: What is the height of that area that the sign is going to sit on? You said the sign is seven feet high. Just the portion where the sign is going to be. Mr. Drane: How high that is above grade? Mr. LaPine: No. From the top to the dryvit portion. Mr. Drane: I am going to say that is 25 feet. Michael Hossfern, 1050 Wilshire Drive, Troy, Michigan. The actual main height of the building shell is 24 feet and from there you can see the gable roof starts off and it has a vertical height of 14 feet so if the sign is about seven feet you have about 3.5 feet or so before the sign starts and the same amount of clearance above it. Mr. LaPine: So the sign is about half the width of that panel? Mr. Hossfern: Yes. That is correct. 17407 Mr. McCann: Just to clarify, the "j", the "j" looks like it is a foot above and a foot below the other letters. The "M" is seven feet and the "j" is probably nine feet high? Mr. Hossfern: Approximately, yes. Mr. McCann: Are there any other questions from the Commissioners? Hearing none, I will go to the audience. Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against this petition? Seeing no one, a motion is in order. Mr. Piercecchi: Again, since the footage meets the City's specifications, I have no problem with it. therefore I will offer an approving resolution. On a motion by Mr. Piercecchi, seconded by Mr. Hale, and approved, it was #01-04-2000 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 99-11-SN-13 by Meijer, Inc. requesting approval for signage for the commercial building located at 13000 Middlebelt Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 25 be approved subject to the following conditions: 1) That the sign package submitted by Millennium Park, L.L.C., as received by the Planning Commission on November 16, 1999, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2) That all signage for this store shall not be illuminated beyond one (1) hour after this business closes; 3) That any additional signage shall come back before the Planning Commission and City Council for their review and approval. Mr. McCann: Is there any discussion? Mr. Alanskas: I really see nothing wrong with the sign package and the look of it but I will be voting no on it because I think seven feet for that one sign for Meijer's is way too large and I just don't think it is necessary. Thank you. Mr. McCann: Anything else? Hearing from no one, will the secretary please call the roll. A roll call vote was taken with the following result: AYES: LaPine, Piercecchi, Shane, Hale, Koons, McCann NAYS: Alanskas ABSENT: None Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. ITEM #5 PETITION 99-11-SN-14 Millennium Park, L.L.C. 17408 Mr. Hale, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 99-11-SN-14 by Millennium Park, L.L.C. requesting approval for signage for the commercial development located at 13500 Middlebelt Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 25. Mr. Miller: This site is located on the south side of Schoolcraft between Middlebelt and Inkster. The applicant is requesting approval for two (2) business center signs and one (1) directional sign for the Millennium Park development. Parts of this development are presently under construction. All three signs would be internally illuminated. Because the proposed signage is in excess of sign area and height allowed by the sign ordinance and tenants are identified on all three signs the applicant first had to be granted a variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals prior to being presented to the Planning Commission. A variance (case #9908-105) was granted at the Board's September 21, 1999, Regular Meeting. Mr. McCann: Is there any correspondence? Mr. Taormina: There is one item of correspondence and it is a letter from the Inspection Department dated December 2, 1999, and reads as follows: "Per your request of November 19, 1999, the sign package for the above subject site has been reviewed. As proposed, this sign package conforms with the variance (Appeal Case #9908-105) granted by the Zoning Board of Appeals. This Department would have no objection to the above proposal." The letter is signed by David M. Woodcox, Senior Building Inspector. Thank you. Mr. McCann: Is the petitioner here this evening? Mark Drane, T. Rogvoy Architects, 6735 Telegraph Road, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. I trust you all got the rendering. The design concept is intended to be an overall design concept however the intent wasn't to try to stick a sign out in the middle to draw attention to itself Each entrance we painstakingly designed to create a theme or field of this site because these buildings are 1500 feet away from Middlebelt Road and 1800 feet from Schoolcraft Road. We thought it necessary to identify the tenants within the site because they are so far away from the road. We thought we had done it in a uniform manner. One pylon or monument sign for each entrance accompanied by the low brick garden walls with the limestone caps and finials and the monuments with the copper tops and spires. You will notice that it has been designed in a manner where we have lapping landscaping behind the ornamental trees, evergreen trees and canopy trees to try to provide a layering effect in the background for the entrance. You will notice that the center boulevard there is a low brick wall with a flag pole. Pedestrian lighting, brick payers around the monoliths. They are set back such that we feel that we are not taking anymore advantage of signage than anybody else in the district. I think the rendering will help you out with that concept. Mr. McCann: Would you mind putting the rendering up? Mr. Drane: Sure. 17409 Mr. McCann: I normally don't take advantage position as chair and go first but when I see the rendering come across, this looks like we are going into a state park, not into a shopping mall. When I look at the towers which are 20 some feet tall, the trees in the background are some 60 feet tall. We are not going to be planting trees that are 60 feet tall, are we? Mr. Drane: No. This is not a rendering of installed product but there are berms back there so they will be taller and some of these trees are 12 feet high, planted height. Mr. McCann: Twelve feet, so we will be looking at the height of the bushes in the picture, not the height of the trees is what we are going to get. Mr. Drane: Like I said, this is not a planting height rendering. Mr. McCann: But this is what you are bringing to us so we want to know what the truth is and what we are really going to get. Mr. Drane: O.K. Mr. McCann: When I look at this it looks beautiful. It's a five lane road there, actually it is about six or seven lanes in that area. On Middlebelt, the trees will never get this high, even in 10 years, the tenants are never going to let you let the trees grow to this height to where you can't see the mall and you can't see the Meijer's and you can't see the stores back there. It is part of the business being able to see that there is a mall back there. I guess where I am going with this is the need for the height of the tenant sign being 18 feet. We know the trees aren't going to be that high. Do the tenants signs need to be that high? You've got 18'9" is required for your tenant sign there. What is the purpose of going that high? Mr. Drane: To get the tenant panels on them, on the signs so that they can be read. Mr. McCann: What tenants? Is there a contract for any of tenants to be on the sign? Mr. Drane: There is a contract for Home Depot and Meijer's to be on the sign and Millennium Park to be on the sign. Mr. McCann: When you signed that contract you knew that you were not a regional mall, didn't you? Mr. Drane: Yes. Mr. McCann: So you knew you were not allowed to have their signs? Mr. Drane: We knew upfront and I believe that the site plan approval package states that no signage shall be approved as part of that package. Mr. McCann: So your tenants knew that they might not get a sign out front? Mr. Drane: Correct. 17410 Mr. McCann: How wide are the tenant's signs? I think they're three feet. Is that the correct N,„ size of the panel for Meijer and for Home Depot? Mr. Drane: The sign is 10 feet wide. Proportionately; however, the letters space out. It is a function of how high the panel is and the proportion of the letter, so I am going to guess that the larger sign will have, let's say Tom's Linens Emporium, which is a long sign. It would have an eight inch high letter or a 10 inch high letter which would take up eight feet on the sign panel, so they could be up to eight feet long. Mr. McCann: But what about the height of the panel? Mr. Drane: The height... Mr. McCann: Will each panel be two feet or three feet high? Mr. Drane: The top panel is 2'-2", the Meijer panel is 3'-2", and the Home Depot panel is 2'- 6". The range is anywhere from 1'-8" to 1'-10" high. Mr. McCann: How did we come up with that? Mr. Drane: What we thought would be appropriate would be the height of the letter versus the area of the sign, we didn't want to jam the letters on the sign and make it 1.. look crowded. We wanted to make sure there was space between the letters, between each tenant sign so it didn't all read together. Mr. McCann: O.K. Meijer's is the widest. Why is that? It is the shortest name. Mr. Drane: Because it is the tallest letter. You will notice that the Meijer sign is the top billing, and Home Depot is the top billing at the other location. You will see the differences in the signs. There are different size letters. Mr. McCann: How far back is this off of Middlebelt Road? Mr. Drane: It is 20 feet from the property line. Mr. McCann: You've got letters that are approximately 3' for Meijer. Mr. Drane: The "M" is going to about 24" high. Mr. McCann: The "j" is going to be 36" and you are 20 feet from the main road. Is that absolutely necessary? Mr. Drane: In my opinion, the way the traffic is and the way Middlebelt Road dips down, and because there are seven lanes out there and the rate of speed, yes. Mr. McCann: Are people going to break their necks trying to look up 18 feet to see it in the air. 17411 Mr. Drane: No. I am looking up at a ceiling that is 20 feet high and I am not breaking my N` neck. I think it is a line of sight issue. Mr. McCann: It is also a convenience for reading. You are not suppose to be taking your eyes off the road when they are driving. Mr. Drane: We also want people to read the sign before they make the left hand turn or the right hand turn. Mr. McCann: I am going to go to the other Commissioners? Are there any questions? Mrs. Koons: Mr. Drane, why six panels? What drove that decision? Mr. Drane: Because we thought we would have four major tenants back between Meijer's and Home Depot that would require signs. Those are the tenants that are the furthest back from the road and because they have the smallest buildings, they have the smallest wall signs. Mrs. Koons: I'll save my comments for later. That's all the questions I have. Thanks. Mr. LaPine: At our study session I mentioned that I didn't remember, is this the drawing of what you told me we got in our original package? Mr. Drane: No. That is it right there. I brought that because we had discussed that. Mr. LaPine: Show me where the pylon sign shows all these stores on it. Mr. Drane: On that one it doesn't. On the packet on the cover sheet of the site plan... Mr. LaPine: I was under the impression that the only signs we were going to have out here on Middlebelt and Schoolcraft was Millennium Park. That is what we are selling here, Millennium Park. We're not selling Meijer's and all the other stores. They are getting their signage inside the shopping center. As it is now, the Millennium Park sign is the smallest. It is smaller than the Meijer's and the Home Depot. To me the largest sign should be Millennium Park, that is what you are selling. Your advertising should say Millennium Park located at the former Livonia racecourse. I think you are asking for way too much signage. I am willing to go a little over the ordinance, but you guys are asking, in my opinion, for more than I really think you need at that location. I have other questions, but I'll let some of the other Commissioners speak. Mr. Piercecchi: Bill said some of the things I was going to say and I want to repeat a couple of things that may or may not have been mentioned. Tenant signs on business center signs have never been approved. You are asking for a tenant sign on a business sign and that has never been allowed, to my knowledge, within the `'"' City. You are asking us to approve something we have never had and set a precedent that may or may not be bad for the City. Do you realize that you are asking for 118 square feet of sign area for each business sign on Schoolcraft 17412 Road in excess of, the sign permit is 40 sq. ft., you are asking for 158 sq. ft. Like Bill said, that is going way overboard and that is on both of those signs. The sign height is 10 feet. Here you've got an extra 10'10". Mr. Drane: Keep in mind too, that we're considered a regional center, and regional centers Mr. Piercecchi: But as a regional center, like Mr. McCann said, you are in an altogether different ball game here. Do you want to go as a regional center? That was brought up in study by our Chairman. Mr. Drane: That was in reference to the height of the sign. The height of the sign in a regional center is 20 feet. Mr. Piercecchi: I don't see how you can justify putting 10' high signs out there. Are you telling us that people aren't going to know that there is a Meijer's or Home Depot in there? Scott Nowakowski, Real Estate Manager with Meijer, Inc. My response is strictly from a selfish standpoint. It is imperative to our Meijer customers that they are able to see when the entrance to our development is coming up and if you are traveling up and down these thoroughfares going 50 to 60 miles an hour, and if you are a mom with kids in the car, that is why it is important to us to have that signage identifying those locations. Mr. Piercecchi: What other complexes have such a thing as that? Mr. Nowakowski: Actually, we don't have anything this nice at our other stores. Our other stores have 20 foot pylon signs which identify this is a Meijer and this is the entrance to the facility. Mr. Piercecchi: They have a 20 sq. ft. sign? Mr. Nowakowski: No, I'm sorry. I was talking about the height. Mr. Piercecchi: What is the square footage? Mr. Nowakowski: The square footage is much larger than that. Mr. Piercecchi: It isn't a 158 sq. ft.? Mr. Nowakowski: We have signs that are 200 sq. ft. Mr. Piercecchi: But that's on the building. Mr. Nowakowski: No. This is on the road. Mr. Piercecchi: Where is that? In Michigan? 17413 Mr. Nowakowski: I'll be happy to go back to my records and send you locations on where you can see those signs. Mr. Piercecchi: Did you go in there as a regional complex? Mr. Nowakowski: I don't know how we approached the municipality. Mr. Piercecchi: Jim, did you go over the regional with the people so they can understand what I am talking about? Mr. McCann: If this were a regional center, they would be allowed a 20 foot high sign. You are allowed to put your individual stores on it; however, you are not allowed to have any signage on the building itself. In this case, you want both: a 20 foot sign and you want, I forget what your particular signage on the your building was, somewhere around 473 sq. ft., in addition to putting this out on the main road. According to the City Ordinance you are not allowed to do that. That is what Mr. Piercecchi was referring to. The issue again, is not what you are doing in other communities but what you are doing within this community and what this project was suppose to be. I would assume you would take a look at the plans for the project before you would become a tenant there and invest as much money as you have. What we are trying to determine is whether or not this road is lower, as he says. The sign would be 19 feet above the ground, so it would be 20 feet above the people. You say people are driving 50 to 60 miles an hour? I hope not. I think the speed limit right there is 45 m.p.h. or 40 m.p.h. They don't need to be driving that fast and you are putting it outside of their sight line. If you are trying to get advertising dollars from it, that is one thing. If you are looking for a directional sign, you need to have it down low where the turn is. You don't need a 3-1/2 foot letter to get a directional that says "hey, this is our entrance." That is where we are coming from and if you would like to respond to that, that is what we are interested in hearing. Mr. Nowakowski: The point I am trying to make is that from a distance, certainly from a height perspective, it is important that the sign is up high enough so that our customers can see it in the distance and anticipate that they need to get over the three lanes and get into the right hand lane in order to make that turn. Mr. McCann: In Northville, you have a monument sign, four feet off the ground, not 20 feet. Mr.Nowakowski: I agree, that is what we have. I am just telling you what our preferences are. We wouldn't have had a monument sign there unless it was mandatory. Mr. McCann: Thank you. Mr. Alanskas: Sir, the reason why I am confused is because of the fact that you want to have six signs there showing six different businesses. In that park, you are going to have many, many more businesses than six people and you are saying it is very important that your customer's name is on the mall so that people will know to go in there. In regards to, for example Building "I" where you may have between 4 and 10 tenants and they may be restaurants, they have to be seen too, 17414 but they are not going to be on these signs. So how do you choose who you are going to put on these signs? r.. Mr. Nowakowski: The criteria was who is going to draw the most traffic. Mr. Alanskas: You are going by the size of the building and who is going to draw the most traffic and let the rest of them suffer? Mr. Nowakowski: No, I think there is a C[Nergy about shopping centers that when people go to certain tenants, the other tenants benefit. Mr. Alanskas: How are the other tenants not going to suffer if no one knows who is in there, The smaller tenants or a restaurant? If they don't have a sign there, they can't be seen. Mr. Nowakowski: People who drive into the center because they see the Linens and Things sign.... Mr. Alanskas: Can't they be seen when they drive into these six businesses also with the big building of seven foot letters? Can't they see that? Mr. Nowakowski: Sure they can. Mr. Alanskas: Then why do you need it out there then? No answer? y.. Mr. Nowakowski: I have an answer, but nobody has heard me so far. The building sign is 1500 feet away from the road. That is my answer. Mr. Alanskas: O.K. Thank you. Mrs. Koons: Mr. Drane, I as one Commissioner, probably am not ready to vote on this. But I want to be able to tell you, from my point of view, that the things I have trouble with, because I think it is important. I think your entranceways have potential for elegance. I know that they won't look like this when you come to us but believe me we are going to hold you to some of these landscape plans. I think there is potential for elegance but I think this sign is way too busy. I don't think it fits. I don't think we need six panels from my point of view. I am one of those moms, have been one of those moms that drive past an entrance and have to figure a way to turn back around and my kids duck down because they are embarrassed because we are doing that. So I don't even mind as one Commissioner, some kind of marking that it is Meijer or it is Home Depot. The height is bothersome to me and the "busyness" of the sign is bothersome to me. I think the sign is way too busy for the type of entrance,just to give you my opinion. Thank you. Mr. LaPine: I have a question for the gentleman from Meijer's. You brought up a valid r•- point, people driving down there they have to know where to get over and where to turn I guess my argument back to you is, how much repeat business, how many people use Meijer's on a regular basis of your total business? 17415 Mr. Nowakowski: I can't give you a statistic. vair Mr. LaPine: I would have to say it is probably 60% to 70%. So once a person finds this location, I go to a lot of different shopping centers, I am a salesman, so I go to a lot of different areas. I get lost sometimes but once I find the place the first time, I always know how to get back there. The same thing is going to happen there. Once the people get into this shopping center and start using it, they will always know how to get back in so why do we need a big sign? You can say well we need a big sign for the other 30 or 40% who are going to only come once in a while, but no matter how you do it, once they get to the shopping center and they come back on a regular basis, they are going to know where to go and then we are struck with this big sign forever. Maybe you need the big sign for a year because by that time the number of people that are going to use that center will know where it is at and then it could go away but for us to have a big sign forever just because people have to know ahead of time where to get in. They are going to know where to pull over and get in once they go to that shopping center one time. If they don't, they shouldn't be driving. Mr. Nowakowski: I disagree with you. It would be wonderful if everybody was in a very clear state of mind and when they are driving to the store they weren't distracted by many things. But the fact is that that sign needs to be a constant reminder that this is the entrance you have to pull into. 1411111' Mr. LaPine: Well, then you and I have a great disagreement on that because if their mind isn't on what they are doing, they shouldn't be driving a car on the road, in my opinion. Mr. McCann: If there are no further questions from the Commissioners, I am going to go to the audience. Is there anybody in the audience wishing to speak for or against this petition? Seeing no one, a motion is in order. Mr. Piercecchi: I will make a motion to table this petition and have the petitioner look over the situation and determine what type of area they want to be in this center, or otherwise and perhaps, they can scale back some of these areas. Perhaps in their wisdom they can see that the tenant panels on the business sign really aren't necessary because the people will know there is a Meijer's in there and that there is a Home Depot in there. People are brighter than I think they give them credit for. On a motion by Mr. Piercecchi, seconded by Mr. Shane, and unanimously approved, it was #01-05-2000 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby table Petition 99- 11-SN-14 by Millennium Park, L.L.C. requesting approval for signage for the commercial development located at 13500 Middlebelt Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 25 to February 1, 2000. Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will be tabled to the study meeting of February 1, 2000. This concludes the 17416 Miscellaneous Site Plans portion of our agenda. We will now begin the Pending Items portion of our agenda. These items have been discussed at length in prior meetings therefore, there will only be limited discussion tonight. Audience participation will require unanimous consent from the Commission. ITEM #6 PETITION 99-10-01-16 City Planning Commission (Fire Station #3) Mr. Hale, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 99-10-01-16 by the City Planning Commission pursuant to Section 23.01(a) of Ordinance #543, the Zoning Ordinance of the City of Livonia, as amended, and Council Resolution #673-99 proposing to rezone certain property located on the west side of Farmington Road north of Seven Mile Road (the former Fire Station No. 3 site and the adjacent residential parcel to the south) in the S.E. 1/4 of Section 4 from PL and RUF to OS. On a motion by Mrs. Koons, seconded by Mr. Alanskas, and unanimously approved, it was #01-06-2000 RESOLVED that, Petition 99-10-01-16 by the City Planning Commission pursuant to Section 23.01(a) of Ordinance #543, the Zoning Ordinance of the City of Livonia, as amended, and Council Resolution#673-99 proposing to rezone certain property located on the west side of Farmington Road north of Seven Mile Road (the former Fire Station No. 3 site and the adjacent residential parcel to the south) in the S.E.1/4 of Section 4 from PL and RUF to OS be taken from the table. Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Is there a motion regarding the item. Approving or denying? On a motion by Mr. Shane, seconded by Mr. Alanskas, and unanimously approved, it was #01-07-2000 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on November 23, 1999, by the City Planning Commission on Petition 99-10-01-16 by the City Planning Commission pursuant to Section 23.01(a) of Ordinance #543, the Zoning Ordinance of the City of Livonia, as amended, and Council Resolution 673-99 proposing to rezone certain property located on the west side of Farmington Road north of Seven Mile Road (the former Fire Station No. 3 site and the adjacent residential parcel to the south) in the S.E. 1/4 of Section 4 from PL and RUF to OS, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 99-10-01-16 be approved for the following reasons: 1) That the proposed change of zoning will provide for additional office uses in the area; 2) That the proposed change of zoning is compatible to and in harmony with the surrounding uses and zoning districts in the area; 17417 3) That the location of the proposed zoning district is consistent with the Planning Commission's adopted goals and policies for office development; and 4) That the proposed change of zoning will provide for a transitional use between the commercial uses to the south and the multiple family residential to the north and would provide for a buffer between a heavily traveled major thoroughfare to the east and single family residential uses to the west. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 23.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. ITEM #7 PETITION 99-08-06-03 City Planning Commission (Political Signs/Non-Conforming Signs) Mr. Hale, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 99-08-06-03 by the City Planning Commission pursuant to C.R. #498-99and Section 23.01(a) of Ordinance #543, the Zoning Ordinance of the City of Livonia, as amended, to determine whether or not to amend Section 18.50D and Section 18.50K of the r.. Livonia Zoning Ordinance pertaining to political signs and changes to the face of any valid nonconforming sign. On a motion by Mr. Piercecchi, seconded by Mr. Alanskas, and unanimously approved, it was #01-08-2000 RESOLVED that, Petition 99-08-06-03 by the City Planning Commission pursuant to C.R. #498-99 and Section 23.01(a) of Ordinance #543, the Zoning Ordinance of the City of Livonia, as amended, to determine whether or not to amend Section 18.50D and Section 18.50K of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance pertaining to political signs and changes to the face of any valid nonconforming sign be taken from the table. Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Is there any further discussion? Hearing none, a motion is in order. On a motion by Mrs. Koons, seconded by Mr. Hale, and unanimously approved, it was #01-09-2000 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on November 23, 1999, by the City Planning Commission on Petition 99-08-06-03 by the City Planning Commission pursuant to Council Resolution#498-99 and Section 23.01(a) of Ordinance #543, the Zoning Ordinance of the City of Livonia, as amended, to determine whether or not to amend Section 18.50D and Section 18.50K of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance pertaining to political signs and changes to the face of any valid conforming sign, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 99-08-06-03 be approved for the following reasons: 17418 1) That the proposed language amendments will accomplish changes to the .,., sign regulations of the Zoning Ordinance that will remove unjustified restrictions pertaining to political signs and changes to the face of any valid nonconforming sign; 2) That the proposed language amendments will provide for the adequate regulation of political signs while, at the same time, providing protection of First Amendment rights of free speech; and 3) That the proposed language amendment is recommended by the Inspection Department and the Law Department. Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. ITEM #8 PETITION 99-11-8-28 Millennium Park, L.L.C. Mr. Hale, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 99-11-08-28 by Millennium Park, L.L.C. requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of the Zoning Ordinance in connection with a proposal to construct a commercial building on property located at 13500 Middlebelt Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 25. `or On a motion by Mr. Alanskas, seconded by Mrs. Koons, and unanimously approved, it was #01-10-2000 RESOLVED that, Petition 99-11-08-28 by Millennium Park, L.L.C. requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of the Zoning Ordinance in connection with a proposal to construct a commercial building on property located at 13500 Middlebelt Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 25 be taken from the table. Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Is there any further discussion regarding this item? Hearing none, is there anything additional, Mr. Taormina? Mr. Taormina: No there is not. Mr. McCann: Is there anything additional from the petitioner that has changed from the last time that they would like to put forth to the Planning Commission? Mr. Piercecchi: I have a question for our Director. We have a new elevation plan. What was the date on that? According to this information it was December 7, but that has been changed, hasn't it? Mr. Taormina: If we could have a reference to the revision date, Mr. Drane, I think that is was Now the Commission is requesting. 17419 Mr. Drane, Rogvoy Associates, 6735 Telegraph, Bloomfield Hills. It should be in there. I changed it. 440. Mr. McCann: I think December 7 is the new plan. Mrs. Koons: It is December 29, number 5, the elevation plan. Mark Drane: December 29 is the date. Mr. Alanskas: Mr. Drane, are you still unaware, in regards to the 14,000 sq. ft. building, how many tenants you are going have in there? Mr. Drane: Correct. Mr. Alanskas: What could the maximum amount be that you would be putting in there? Mr. Drane: Based on the width and depth ratio and a 2,000 sq. ft. tenant, we could only get eight tenants in there. Mr. Alanskas: So you could put eight in there? O.K. Thank you. Marvin Walkon, 30445 Northwestern Hwy., Farmington Hills, MI. I want to explain why we need this building and why we need this number of tenants. A year ago, 15 �.. months ago, when we came here we had a 200 acre site. We didn't have any idea who was going on this site. We didn't have Meijer's. We didn't have the stores that have been mentioned tonight. In the next four or five weeks, we will be making announcements as to industrial users and hopefully, knock on wood, we are going to be announcing two tenants that are going to take a million square feet. Each of the tenants, hopefully, and I emphasize hopefully because the leases aren't signed, will have 1100 employees. The other will have 800 or 900 employees. That is a little less than half of the industrial. If you keep going at that rate, you could have 4,000 employees. The purpose of this building is not to get anyone from Plymouth Road. We want Plymouth Road to prosper. That is not the purpose. Anyone that would come from Plymouth and Farmington to this site for a loaf of bread would probably need some psychiatric help. It is a big, enormous attendant traffic, there is no reason. There is going to be a new center on Plymouth and Farmington. It is going to have 15 or 20 tenants. That is where you are going to shop. You are not going to come to this enormous, monstrosity site to get a loaf of bread or a cup of coffee. It just doesn't make sense. The purpose of this is, when we are talking to these tenants, they want for their employees to have somewhere to buy a cup of coffee. They want somewhere that they can get a lunch for $5.00 or $6.00. There are some that will be come that will go to Fonte D'Amore and spend $12.00 or $14.00 for lunch but there will be many that won't spend that much because they are not able to spend that much. They are going to want to stay on site. People are going to have breaks. People are going to go out and have a cup of coffee. You don't have time to go to the hamburger store on Plymouth Road. That is the sole purpose. We're not going to get one quarter of one percent other than people that are going to Home Depot or people that are going 17420 to Meijer's and employees. You are not going to get any people that are going to come from a distance. It just doesn't make sense. Basically, when we talked .,,.., to these perspective tenants we try to put a package together and try to get them to come to this site. They can go anywhere in the country. When you see the names of these tenants, these are enormous tenants. We want them here. We want the benefits they bring to the south end of Livonia. Part of our sales to these people, besides the issue of rent and that type of issue, we say listen, this is what we are going to do to make it more comfortable for you. Thank you. Mr. Alanskas: Mr. Walkon, I agree with you but on the site plan that you showed us, you are showing four or five exterior doors in the back of the building- not ten. And you showed us at our study meeting, signs for four or five buildings, but now you are saying you may put ten in there. That would change the entire complex of the building. You would have to change the doors, you would need entrances, which it does not show on the site plan. So you are asking us to approve an "if come thing." If you can, help me see what it is you actually are trying to do. Mr. Walkon: As a practical matter, I know what Mr. Drane said; you couldn't put more than 7 or 8 tenants in that building. Let's assume there is a coney island in there or a sandwich shop. If they take 2500 or 3000 sq. ft., the other tenants are 2,000 sq. ft. so I don't see that as more than an eight tenant building. Mr. Alanskas: O.K. Thank you. „', Mr. McCann: Mr. Walkon, what you are telling us is that you want this building strictly for food service. Is that what you are telling us? Mr. Walkon: No. I am telling you that we want it for the employees. It may not be just food. It may be other things that will service the employees. We don't have any tenants, so it is difficult for me to say. Mr. McCann: Theoretically, any store that you go to, and that is what I am trying to get at, it is one thing to say we are going to have a coffee shop, we're going to have a pita store, we're going to have a coney island and that is 4,000 sq. ft. of it there. I have had clients that are in this business and I know that some of the stores will go 1,200 sq. ft. That may be 4,000 to 5,000 sq. ft. of this. Are you going to have four other dress stores and boutique stores and compete with everybody that you told us a year ago that you weren't going to complete with? That is what I am saying. If you could say that I've got 4,000 sq. ft. that I am going to put three shops in for food service only and I am going to put another 12,000 tenant on the other side but you don't seem to be able to, or Mark has never been able to give us any kind of idea of what he wants or what he could limit it to. He has kind of hand cuffed us. Mr. Walkon: We can absolutely live with a cap of 8 tenants. I don't want to say food tenants 'Ili/ because it could be a video store and that video store would be for the people that work there. It would be extremely unlikely that someone would come 17421 from, let's say Blockbuster Video, they are not a tenant there, in this mall. They would go to the strip centers. Mr. McCann; Blockbuster takes 4,000 to 5,000 sq. ft.? Mr. Walkon: About 4,500 sq. ft. That is correct. It could be a barber shop. Mr. McCann: I know, but then you are going against the small businesses that people have by their home. That is what we are trying to clarify. If it is a place for someone to go to lunch while they are in the mall, and if employees only have a half hour and they walk across the street to get a pita or a coney island, that is servicing your center. When you start going into, it could be a T.V. repair shop but you are saying we are making it more convenient. You could say that about every store you are going to put in there, that you are doing it for convenience sake but it is not a necessity of working in the mall. Mr. Walkon: That is correct. For example, a barber shop is not a necessity but it would be convenient if you are an employee there to get a hair cut. Mr. Alanskas: I am not trying to argue with you but if you could refresh my memory. At one of our meetings, either a public hearing or when we gave you an approving resolution to the Council, I recall that Robert Schostak came before us and said he was for this proposal as long as we do not have small buildings of 3,000 or 4,000 sq. ft. which would be detrimental to the mall. At that time it was said r that you would not have nothing less than, and I could be wrong, at the least 8,000 sq. ft. buildings for any business, except restaurants. You were going to put on those three pads three large restaurants and now you are talking Starbucks and coney islands. Now it is entirely different and if I am wrong, you can correct me. Mr. Walkon: Mr. Schostak referred only to the number of tenants between the two big boxes. I sat next to him when he said that. We said that we would cap that at five. That is the only discussion of the number of tenants we've had with Mr. Schostak. Mr. Alanskas: That is 140,000 sq. ft. that you are referring to? Mr. Walkon: Correct. Mr. LaPine: I've got the minutes from the July 14th meeting in which you made the statement that: "we're not going to have any small tenants. There is not going to be any 5,000 or 10,000 spaces for small stores, like a gym shoe store or T- shirt store or woman's apparel store and all kinds of small stores. We're not going to have those." Let me address Plymouth Road for a second. I think this is going to be the biggest boom ever for Plymouth Road since sliced bread". I think those 4,000 folks," and I assume you are talking about the people that will be working there, "they are going to go to Plymouth Road and grab a hamburger. They are going to drop off their cleaning and get flowers." Now you are telling me Plymouth Road is not going to get any people from them 17422 going to lunch. You may have a flower shop in there. You may have a cleaners in there. You are doing exactly what you told us you weren't going to do to hurt Plymouth Road and that is where I am hanging my hat. I am holding you to what you said. You said you weren't going to have any small stores. I think that is reasonable. You said it and I think you should stick to what you told us. Mr. Walkon: May I reply? Mr. LaPine: Yes. Mr. Walkon: First of all, I want to address the issue of Mr. Schostak. We talked about those five stores. I think we all agree on that but initially, we didn't think we needed small stores there. In fact, when we were talking to the prospective tenants, we want them and I think you want them to be here. This was a selling point. Let me give you an example. You recently approved, on Plymouth and Farmington 60,000 feet of small tenant space. The drug store takes 15,000 sq. ft. You have 45,000 sq. ft. on Plymouth and Farmington which may well be 20 stores. They will have more stores at that strip center than we will have at Millennium Park. I think that that is a comparison that one is a 12 acre site and the other is a 200 acre site. Thank you. Mr. McCann: A motion is in order. On a motion by Mr. Piercecchi , seconded by Mr. LaPine, and approved it was #01-11-2000 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 99-11-08-28 by Millennium Park, L.L.C. requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of the Zoning Ordinance in connection with a proposal to construct a commercial building on property located at 13500 Middlebelt Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 25 be approved subject to the following conditions: 1) That the site plan marked Sheet SPA-1 dated November 8, 1999, prepared by Rogvoy Architects, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2) That the landscape plan marked Sheet SPA-2 dated 11/08/99 prepared by DesignTeam, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 3) That all disturbed lawn areas shall be sodded in lieu of hydroseeding; 4) That underground sprinklers are to be provided for all landscaped and sodded areas and all planted materials shall be installed to the satisfaction of the Inspection Department and thereafter permanently maintained in a healthy condition; 5) That the exterior building elevation plan marked Sheet SPA-5 dated December 29, 1999, prepared by Rogvoy Architects, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 17423 6) That the brick used in the construction of the building shall be full face 4- inch brick, no exceptions; 7) That the three walls of the trash dumpster area shall be constructed out of the same brick used in the construction of the building and the enclosure gates shall be maintained and when not in use, closed at all times; 8) That the petitioner shall correct to the Inspection Department's satisfaction the following site deficiency as outlined in the correspondence dated November 9, 1999: that the required accessible parking spaces shall be installed according to the current Boca Codes 9) That the 16,400 sq. ft. building shall be restricted to two (2) tenants; and 10) That no signs, either freestanding or wall mounted, are approved with this petition. All such signage shall be separately submitted for review and approval by the Planning Commission and City Council. Mr. McCann: Is there any discussion? Mrs. Koons: I will be voting against this motion because I think 8 tenants may be too many, but I think two at this point is too restrictive. We have pushed for diversity in `,.. the look of the development. I don't want us to be tying hands if we are providing diversity in the service in this type of development and I do think a lot people do use their lunch hours to run errands as effectively as they can. I don't know that a half hour or 45 minute lunch hour could allow someone to go to Plymouth Road to a flower shop, to a card shop or to a barber shop. I think 8 is too many but I think 2 at this point is too restrictive. Thank you. Mr. Shane: For the record, it is my understanding that this site plan meets all the requirements of the Zoning Ordinance and that, at least in my opinion, the architecture is compatible to and in harmony with the other buildings that are existing or proposed and with respect to restaurants. The restaurants that would be in there would not be automatically permitted. They would require waiver use so the City would have control over which restaurants would go in and their size and the kind that they are and so forth, and therefore I have no problem with this petition. However, I am disappointed with the two tenant restriction because it is counter productive and it is unnecessary. It has dubious value however, because it is a good petition, it is consistent with the overall scheme of Millennium Park and I would like to see it go ahead. So I will vote for the petition. Mr. Alanskas: I just want to say the same thing. I hate to restrict this. I know what Mr. Walkon is trying to do because there is going to be thousands and thousands of oft. people there. But you know, Home Depot wherever you go you can get food there before you exit the building. They have hot dogs, coffee, so on and so forth. When you go into Meijer's they have food for customers. I just cannot 17424 see restricting it to two. I think four would be more feasible. I cannot approve two tenants. I think that is not giving them enough. Thank you. Mr. McCann: I have looked at this. I have tried to come up with a reasonable solution. We have a master plan of this development. We have spent considerable time. We had meetings with the Council. We had meetings with the developers. We've had meetings with residents. We took a look at this and there was a master plan. We understand that you can't carry out every aspect of a master plan throughout the project but we can try to keep the intent there. As Mr. LaPine read the minutes, there was a reason why we were trying to keep large tenants there. There are needs for changes occasionally but to say we need to change this but we can't give you a limit of, let's say four, or 4,000 sq. ft. towards food services, which appears to be the major need. It appears to me that we are going to end up with a site that can go from tenant to tenant to tenant and compete with what the people on Plymouth Road which were afraid of and that was you are going to drive all the business away from Plymouth Road. They won't go past the Millennium project. I did have discussions with Mr. Schostak regarding this. He called me at that time and said it was his concern that the tenants should not be less than 15,000 sq. ft. and that he was going to support this because he was promised that there would not be direct competition from the smaller tenants. It's not that I think that is what you are trying to do, but that is what it is going to end up because as soon as you've got a vacant store and you've got a 3,000 sq. ft. woman's dress shop that wants to come in and they are the first one in line and willing to pay the dollar, that is �.. what is going to end up there. I am going to move this forward to City Council with a recommendation for two tenants as well. Mr. Piercecchi: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a comment. I obviously am going to vote for this motion and the reason for it is really that I agree with you on the higher number. Splitting this building into two tenants is really not a significant deviation from the spirit of the dialogue that was established in December 1998 regarding the total number of tenant operations within the Millennium. I refer to pages 16543 and 16544 of those minutes and I would like to cover just two things in regard to those minutes. I presented this statement: "One of my major concerns is that the initiation of this program was that the ultimate magnitude of this project and it's impact on the rest of the City businesses. Although I don't think that issue has been totally addressed by an independent study, the appearance of this layout here, do I assume the maximum number of tenants in this 67 acres would be 13?" Mr. Drane answered: "Yes. The five out lots, Home Depot, Meijers, Borders and the five-tenant building." Meijer's was in your original plan, Mr. Walkon. After that Mr. Goldberg commented, I won't read his entire deal but he said if Border's does not go forward as planned then that building could have two tenants. In final, Mr. Goldberg said we have no intention to have a bunch of small tenants. I was under the impression when they made that motion that we were more or less locked in into 13 - 14 plats. That's why I was willing to make this a two tenant building because it was in the spirit there because Border's hopefully will be there and that will be the fourteenth. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 17425 A roll call vote was taken with the following result: AYES: LaPine, Piercecchi, Shane, Hale, McCann NAYS: Alanskas, Koons ABSENT: None Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM #9 Approval of Minutes of 797`h Public Hearing and Regular Meeting Mr. Hale, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is the approval of the Minutes of the 797th Public Hearing and Regular Meeting held on December 14, 1999. On a motion by Mr. LaPine, seconded by Mrs. Koons and unanimously approved, it was #01-12-2000 RESOLVED that, the Minutes of the 797`h Public Hearing and Regular Meeting held by the City Planning Commission on December 14, 1999, are hereby approved. A roll call vote was taken with the following result: AYES: Alanskas, Piercecchi, LaPine, Hale, Koons, Shane, McCann N`" NAYS: None ABSENT: None Mr. McCann, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted the 798th Regular Meeting held on January 11, 2000, was adjourned at 9:10 P.M. CITY PLANNING COMMISSION //7.,./72 Michael Hale, Secretary ATTEST: I, .._, ; ;` w . James C. McCann, Chairman