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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPLANNING MINUTES 1991-06-18 11671 MINUTES OF THE 625th REGULAR MEETING AND PUBLIC HEARINGS HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA Now On Tuesday, June 18, 1991, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its 625th Regular Meeting and Public Hearings in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan. Mr. Jack Engebretson, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. , with approximately 30 interested persons in the audience. Members present: Jack Engebretson Herman Kluver William LaPine Raymond W. Tent Conrad Gniewek R. Lee Morrow James C. McCann Donald Vyhnalek Members absent: Brenda Lee Fandrei Messrs. John J. Nagy, Planning Director and Ralph H. Bakewell, Planner IV, were also present. Mr. Engebretson informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda involves a rezoning request, this Commission only makes a recommendation to the City Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and decide the question. If a petition involves a waiver of use request and the request is denied, the petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision to the City Council; otherwise the petition is terminated. Planning Commission resolutions become effective seven days after the resolutions are adopted. The Planning Commission has reviewed the petitions upon their filing and have been furnished by r. the staff with approving and denying resolutions. The Commission may use them or not use them depending upon the outcome of the hearing tonight. Mr. Tent acted as Secretary in the absence of Mrs. Fandrei. Mr. Tent, Acting Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda is Petition 91-5-2-14 by Michael S. Downes & Assoc. requesting waiver use approval to construct a single family cluster development on the west side of Harrison between Five Mile and Broadmoor in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 13. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Nagy: We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating their office has no objections to the waiver use proposal. We have also received a letter from the Traffic Bureau stating (1) The streets are shown as being 28 feet. Ordinance #2.03 (f) requires a minimum of 30 feet. This would require the posting of "No Parking" signs through the whole site. (2) The cul-de-sac is 20 feet wide with a 23 foot radius. This will not allow fire equipment to access this area. (3) No sidewalks are shown. (4) No street lighting. Lastly, we have received a letter from the Division of Fire stating they have no objections to this proposal. 11672 Mr. Engebretson: Before we call the petitioner down, Mr. Nagy since this particular land has been the focus of considerable controversy in the past year or so, would you please take a moment to recap the history of what is going on with this parcel of land. Mr. Nagy: Without going through a great deal of history, the property, as the Commission certainly knows and perhaps some of the audience may well know, the property in this petition is brought to you by the Southwood Construction Company and they, in the past, have filed for a zoning change on the subject property on three different occasions. The long and the short of it all is that all three petitions were ultimately denied by the City Council. As a result of those denials a suit was commenced in Circuit Court brought against the City of Livonia by Southwood Construction Company. There was a settlement of that lawsuit and the parties to the suit, the City of Livonia as well as Southwood Construction, agreed to settle their differences on the basis of rezoning the property to an R-2 zoning classification, which is the subject zoning of the property under consideration tonight as indicated on the map. Along with that settlement they agreed, in concept, to a development plan for the property and that is it would be developed in accordance with the cluster option available pursuant to the R-2 zoning district regulations, the maximum allowable units would not exceed 83 and no cluster would exceed more than 3 units and the configuration for the development would roughly follow the concept that was referenced in the settlement and, again, it is displayed on the map on the screen. What is before you is a result of the settlement of that law suit. Your petitioner is now bringing forward a site plan pursuant to the cluster option within the R-2 zoning classification. That is what the hearing tonight is about. Mr. Engebretson: So to clarify then Mr. Nagy one of the latter points you made relative to the cluster type housing, was that the cluster housing plan was part of the agreement between the City and the developer in the Court matter? Mr. Nagy: Yes it was. Mr. Morrow: On that same subject, I was reading my background notes and it said it may be developed. I want to know what charge I am under tonight. As an outgrowth of that Consent Judgment, was the cluster homes part of that Consent Judgment between the developer and the City with the obvious approval of the Judge? Mr. Nagy: It was part of the Consent Order. The pertinent paragraph says that "IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that at the election of the plaintiff, the property described in Exhibit "A" attached hereto, may be developed and have constructed thereon a single family cluster development having a maximum total density of eighty-three (83) units," so the words "may be developed" is set forth. Mr. Morrow: What was the first part of that again? Mr. Nagy: The paragraph begins "IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that at the election of the plaintiff". 11673 Mr. Morrow: At the election. He is exercising his option. That is the point I wanted to clear up. Mr. Gniewek: John, there was some indication by the Traffic Department that there was some discrepancies as far as sizes of the roads, the '04111. cul-de-sac, etc. Have those been reflected in the new site plan? Mr. Nagy: That is true. They have been. The Traffic Bureau, the section they cited is pursuant to a residential subdivision plat. If this was a subdivision per se, then that would be the applicable requirements pursuant to a conventional subdivision plan. What we have before us tonight is the single family cluster option with private roads, so therefore the sections they cited are not applicable because of the private development that we are dealing with tonight. Mr. Gniewek: It was indicated by the Traffic Department that the cul-de-sac was not large enough to accommodate the traffic pattern. Mr. Nagy: There has been some adjustment to the cul-de-sac. Mr. Gniewek: The site plans we are referring to here will reflect those particular adjustments. Mr. Nagy: Yes, the cul-de-sac enlargement has been provided for. Mr. LaPine: John, what we are saying here is the reason the roads will not be 30 feet is because they are private roads? Mr. Nagy: Right. Mr. LaPine: Therefore, the City has no jurisdiction on those roads as far as maintenance? It is all taken care of by the condos. Is that right? Mr. Nagy: That is correct. Mr. LaPine: Just to make sure, Connie brought up about the radius of the cul-de-sac. What about sidewalks? Are there going to be sidewalks? Mr. Nagy: We discussed that with the petitioner and it was obviously a matter of discussion at your study meeting, and the petitioner wants to argue his case before the Commission this evening. The plan has not been revised to provide sidewalks and he wishes to discuss that directly with the Commission. Mr. LaPine: The street lights? Mr. Nagy: The plan has been revised to provide for street lights. Mr. LaPine: Let's go back to the sidewalks for one moment. Seeing the roads are private, does that mean the sidewalks will be private? If he puts in sidewalks, is he required to maintain them or is the City required to maintain them? 11674 Mr. Nagy: The condominium association would be required to maintain them. The owners party to that association. It is their responsibility to maintain the roads, the sidewalks, the ground, the landscaping, the buildings. Everything related to the project is the responsibility of the homeowners' association. Mr. LaPine: Is this what happens in all condo situations? Mr. Nagy: That is true. Mr. LaPine: Sewers are the responsibility of the City though or is that condo? Mr. Nagy: Sewers, if they are public sewers, then the City would take an easement over the area to maintain them, usually because the sewers go beyond the project area. They tend to be public. Mr. Tent: Mr. Nagy, in regards to the Traffic letter, there was an indication about no parking signs throughout the whole site. Will this have any affect on our parking on the site? Will we have adequate parking without using street parking? Mr. Nagy: We have adequate parking within the project without relying on street right-of-way. Mr. Tent: The street parking would have been a bonus if the roads were wide enough. At this point there is no waiver required. Each unit has enough parking there to accommodate the site? Mr. Nagy: To accommodate our off-street parking requirements. Mr. Tent: And that is reflected in the site plan? Mr. Nagy: Yes it is. Mr. Gniewek: Mr. Nagy, will the landscape plan be a part of our approval this evening? Mr. Nagy: You will notice in the notes we provided, we do not have a landscape plan. We are asking that a detailed landscape plan be submitted for the Planning Commission to review within 30 days. Mr. Vyhnalek: Mr. Nagy, on the trash pickup, if it is a private road, they will have to have a private hauler come in? Mr. Nagy: No. Because there is still individual ownership of the units, the owners of those units pay property taxes and as such pay the special millage that is on your tax for refuse collection. By virtue of paying that special millage and that tax, they are therefore entitled to refuse collection so the City contracted refuse hauler will go upon their property to pick up refuse just as if it were an ordinary detached home. Mr. Engebretson: Would the petitioner please come forward, give us your name and address for the record and give us your reasons for making this request. 11675 Michael Downes, Architect, 23332 Orchard Lake Road, Farmington Hills: I am the representative for the Southwood Construction Company and I think for the most part all the questions that you have been asking John and what Ralph said at the beginning just about covers everything. This particular plan is very similar to the one we took to the 4111. Council and the one which they based the Consent Judgment on. (Mr. Downes displayed the site plan) The only changes made were minor changes relative to spacing between buildings because we have more units with side door openings to the garages. On the original plan a lot of them had front garage doors. That spacing is reflected in here. The other situation which is reflected, which I changed, we have shown the various lighting fixtures, etc. We have also discussed trash collection and John essentially is correct. This is a private road but utility vehicles and emergency vehicles are always allowed to go on that private road. There are papers we have to file with the City, because this is a condominium, which gives them the right to go on there for police, fire, trash, utilities, etc. Whenever there is a public utility on there, for example there is a storm sewer that runs through there, there is an easement for that storm sewer. There is a water line that traverses the entire property. There is an easement for that. The sanitary sewer, there will be an easement for that because those are all public utilities. The sewer line that goes from the main sanitary into the unit, that would be private because it only serves one unit. At any rate, the public services would be covered with easements. As you can see from the plan, there is a large open recreation space in the middle, which is available for the use of the entire condominium development and their jurisdiction as to what they eventually are going to do as far as swings, a playground, whatever they are going to put in there. They have the jurisdiction, after the initial sale, to put that in there and they will maintain that. At the present time, most of the reasons we do these site plans that show sidewalks is because it was only until recently that the post office wanted to make house to house delivery and they needed the sidewalks. A few years ago that changed. The post office, now they don't want to make house to house deliveries. They go with a truck and drop it at one central location with several boxes and the residents when they come in they will either walk up or drive up to their particular box. Therefore, there is not really a need on a private development like this to have any kind of a walk system. We do intend, however, to put a bike path through here, which will be reflected in our landscape plan because obviously we are going to have landscaping areas around and the bike path will be meandering through those roads and winding around, etc. We do have sidewalks now. Every unit has a sidewalk that leads from their driveway to their front door. So anybody pulling into their driveway obviously can get to their front door. I believe that answers most of the questions asked by the Commissioners. If there are any other specifics I missed, I would be glad to answer them. Mr. Tent: Mr. Downes, it was a nice presentation and I appreciate the fact that you are going to provide bike paths there for the younger adults. The mail pick up, I wouldn't like that but that is 11676 another thing. What concerns me is this is going to be a young family development. There are going to be a lot of young children there probably. They like to ride tricycles. Where will the young kids ride their tricycles if they have no sidewalks? �.► Mr. Downes: They will ride them in the bike path. Mr. Tent: That is the bike path for the two wheeler bikes but what about the homes up front where they are a distance from the bike path. In other words, I have seen and I have heard questions here within the City where that was quite a question. The people asked why can't we have sidewalks not just to walk on but for the children to ride their tricycles. That was just one of the concerns. While you did provide for the adults there, I don't know why not for the children since this is a young family development. Mr. Downes: I think the children can ride their bikes in this general area or they can ride on the bike paths if they are with adults. Mr. Tent: It is more convenient for the mothers to look out the windows and see them riding their trike up and down the walk in front of the house. Mr. Downes: We will have a play area some place in this area for the general condominium. That doesn't preclude any particular homeowner from having sand boxes alongside their front door or in the rear yard if they want to. Mr. Tent: Those are my thoughts about the front sidewalks. I certainly would like to see them in the subdivision. `.. Mr. Gniewek: Mr. Downes you are also indicating that people who want to walk up to get their mail will have to walk in the roadway. Is that correct? Mr. Downes: Essentially that will be correct. Most of them will drive up as they come in or drive out. Mr. Gniewek: Going along with Mr. Tent's comment, the units that are away from the central location, the ones on the opposite side of the street, what facilities would their kids have? Just a driveway to run up and down? Mr. Downes: I would imagine that their parents would walk them across to the general playground. Mr. McCann: Mr. Downes, I have a real problem. I have little kids. Even older adults want to have a place to walk up and down the street. Sidewalks are a very essential part of any planned community living. It keeps kids out of the street. It keeps kids from riding up and down the street with their bikes and their toys. What is your client's position with regard to this? Does he want to go ahead even, if I am hearing correctly, the majority of the Planning Commission want these sidewalks, or is he unwilling to go along with it? 11677 Mr. Downes: I believe the only way I can put this is that as of the last discussion with my client, he does not want to put in interior sidewalks around the site. Mr. Kluver: To the petitioner, when you put your internal road system in, is r.. this going to be concrete streets? Mr. Downes: Yes I believe it is. Mr. Kluver: Will there be curbing? What are you going to do as far as the water runoff? Mr. Downes: I believe they are going to be mountable curbs. I can't be sure of that. The last project we did with this particular development, we put in mountable curbs so I would assume these are going to be the same unless the Engineering Department has some comments about that. I would imagine we would put in the same curbs. Mr. Kluver: I would assume you have a fairly good idea since this obviously is not your first project. With that, if you were to put in mountable curbs, why can't you put in, next to the mountable curbs, a sidewalk? It could be 30 inches wide or wider, perhaps 36 inches. Mr. Downes: I don't believe 36 inches would be wide enough. Mr. Kluver: I don't know how wide sidewalks should be but if you are going to take the amount of time to put a concrete road in, lay out a mountable curb, you could lay out a sidewalk and make that adjacent to the mountable curb. `4.1. Mr. Downes: My personal feeling is putting a sidewalk right next to the curb is relatively dangerous. That is my personal feeling. It is one thing to have a subdivision where you have a 60 foot right-of-way and you put in a 30 foot street, it still gives you 15 feet on both sides so that the sidewalk ends up being 10 feet away from the road itself. To put the sidewalk right up against the road, I personally believe is quite dangerous. Mr. Kluver: Therefore, in going back and reviewing what you are saying, because we have a narrow system and it appears that is the way the development is laid out, we don't have sufficient area within the development to put in a road, a mountable curb and a sidewalk. Is that correct? Mr. Downes: Not really. For example, from the roadway to each garage is a minimum of 25 feet. A car is approximately 20 feet if you park it all the way up to the garage. If anybody is parking in the driveway and you do put a walk in there, they will be walking behind the cars. That can be dangerous. A walkway should be within, which means going from driveway to driveway, the interior of the site. Mr. Kluver: Can this site accommodate sidewalks? Yes or no? Mr. Downes: It can. 11678 Mr. Kluver: So why don't we put them in? Mr. Downes: Because we don't feel they are necessary or proper. I think there is more to be gained by not putting them in than by putting them in. Mr. Kluver: You say you can put them in and they will fit but you are not going to put them in. Mr. Downes: No, not right now. Mr. Kluver: Is this a cost issue? Mr. Downes: To my way of thinking it is more of a safety issue. Mr. Morrow: The only comment I had was Mr. Downes said the sidewalk would be unsafe with that close proximity to the road. The only thing I can think is more unsafe, is not having any sidewalks at all. That is my unprofessional opinion. I would also like to see the elevations. Mr. Downes presented the elevations. Mr. Downes: They are 3 unit buildings consisting of 3 types of units. There are 28 building groups total. Mr. Gniewek: What is the square footage of each unit? Mr. Downes: They vary. Essentially, the ranches are 1187. The two-story B units are 1353 and the two-story C units are 1417, not including garages. These all have two car garages. Mr. LaPine: What is the distance from unit to unit? How much green space do we have between units? Mr. Downes: In most instances there is approximately 60 feet. Mr. LaPine: There is considerable distance? Mr. Downes: Yes. That is why we were able to put in side door garages. Mr. Vyhnalek: Mr. Downes, you have 28 units? Mr. Downes: Twenty-eight buildings. Mr. Vyhnalek: One is just going to have two units? Where is that located? Mr. Downes pointed it out on the site plan. Mr. Tent: Mr. Downes, the elevation you have there, that is what you are proposing for the site? Mr. Downes: Essentially yes. Mr. Tent: Does that show a sidewalk in front of the house? 11679 Mr. Downes: The rendering shows a sidewalk. Mr. Tent: That is to complete the picture, right? Mr. Downes: No that is incorrect. That is the artist's conception. Robert Ostander, 15400 Harrison: If I am not mistaken, we can't have sidewalks next to the roadway because it is unsafe but it is safe to walk in the roadway. That puzzles me. There is another thing that puzzles me, with the 25 foot setback and as the gentleman stated, no parking on the road, each unit has one car. Am I to assume they never have company, they are not a two-car family, they never have a graduation party, etc. In other words we are back to the same bit no matter what the Court says. We are trying to crowd too much into a small area. Now can any one of you gentleman honestly say that 25-foot, one-car parking space is ample for today's society? Mr. Engebretson: We are not in an adversarial position here sir. Mr. Ostander: I know you are not an adversary sir but I have been to these meetings for seven or eight years and every time the citizens, and we have had good turnouts, have been against something, then the Mayor, the Council, the attorneys, the builders get together and the builder gets just what he wants. All I am questioning is, we are still trying to put too much in too small of an area. If they have a parking problem there, where are they going to park? Harrison - I live on Harrison. Now we have another problem. Gentlemen, I believe once again he is going to have to come up with something better than this. Ample parking, sidewalks and not try to crowd so much into such a small area. Mr. Nagy: What is being proposed here, as the petitioner indicated, each unit is to have a two-car garage. There will be two cars in the garage and there will be the ability to park two cars in the driveway in front of the garage. Each unit has the ability to accommodate four cars. Because these are private streets, the association will decide whether they will allow on street or off street parking within the roadway but the City will not regulate it by the placement of signs because as indicated these are now private roads not public roads. Mr. Engebretson: John, on that same subject, I am still a bit confused as to what the parameters are that we are working with here. Does the Court order require us to deal with the site plan with that kind of density, because I agree with the gentleman based on what I have heard so far that it seems like there are all kinds of things missing here in order to pack that density. I am just wondering has the Court directed that density is what we live with? Mr. Nagy: Yes. The Court order clearly indicates that it can provide a cluster development with maximum total density of 83 units. Mr. Engebretson: That is what they have. Mr. Morrow: Is that the plan that was approved? 11680 Mr. Nagy: It has been refined. In concept that is the plan. It has been refined to the extent of precise dimensioning, the setbacks between the buildings and the driveways, etc. but in concept that is the plan. 11110. Mr. LaPine: John, are you saying that the association, once all the condos are all sold, the association gets together and they determine if there shall be parking or no parking on the street. The City has no jurisdiction over that. Is that what you are telling me? That doesn't make sense John. Let's assume you have a 28 foot road and the association says you can park on both sides of the road. That leaves 20 feet. Say there is a fire in the middle of the night, is that going to leave room for emergency vehicles to go through? That doesn't make sense. The City should have some jurisdiction like saying the roads have to be a certain width and there can be parking on only one side because emergency vehicles have to get through there. I have a problem with a fire truck getting through with cars parked on both sides of the street. Mr. Nagy: The City always has the right to protect the public welfare, health and safety. The City always has the right to enforce reasonable public safety standards but the simple issue of whether there will be or will not be street parking really will be a matter for the association to decide. Mr. Engebretson: I think we are very keenly aware that one of our principal guides in making some of the decisions that we do has to do with protecting the health, safety and welfare of the community and I think that some of the concerns expressed regarding the safety issues are very germane. nor Mr. Downes: You have to understand the condominium associations are basically regulated by the state. Their by-laws, etc. are governed by the state. They cannot disregard local requirements as far as driveways, etc. In other words, they cannot put in a 12 foot drive because they determine it is a 12 foot drive. They can't do that because they are going to be regulated by the state. If the City allows you to put in a 16 foot drive, fine you can do that. It has to be under normal circumstances. The condominium association could understandably pass a by-law saying they have only maximum parking on one side or they could pass a law saying they have parking on neither side only in your driveway. If you have more than four people coming, invite your neighbors so you have eight car parking. John is correct in the sense it is a private road but there are certain criteria that you still have to follow. Mr. Engebretson: You talk about condominium associations being governed by state guidelines and they do what is normally done in a community. As you know, normally we deal with 30 foot wide streets here not 28. Mr. Vyhnalek: What is the open space. What percentage is open space? What is required and what do you have? Mr. Downes: The open space is approximately 120 feet by 625 feet, which is about 1 3/4 acres. 11681 Mr. Vyhnalek: Under the laws what are you supposed to have? Mr. Nagy: The ground coverage of the building groups cannot exceed 25% of the site area. They are under that. Mr. Vyhnalek: It says 83 maximum and you are going to the maximum. Was there any '41111. talk at all between the City Council and your people that you have to go to the maximum? I know you want to get your money but everybody is saying it is too much. Mr. Downes: We started out with 103 and through the Consent Judgment it was reduced down to 83. That is the minimum and the maximum as far as we can see. Mr. Vyhnalek: As one Commissioner, I think it is going to be a tough proposition not just here but also at Council with this plan. It is just overbuilt. Jack Cooper, 15825 Harrison: I live in front of the property that is landlocked. I would like to ask the Planning Commission to address this issue. I have hoped for years that something would be done to allow this home access to a road like every other home in the area. Basically, the City Council and Planning Commission have gone out of their way in the past to eliminate these landlock situations in the City of Livonia and I would like them to do so at this time if they could. They have to share my driveway, which is a gravel driveway, and it is an ongoing maintenance thing and it would be not only to my benefit but to their benefit also to have their own access. Mr. Engebretson: Who has to share your driveway? Mr. Cooper: The people who live behind me. (Mr. Cooper pointed it out on the map) Mr. Engebretson: Unfortunately, I don't know if we really can address that issue in association with this particular petition. Mr. Cooper: My only contention is if it is not addressed now, it never will be. It will always be there. Whereas, it might be a situation where it was just a minor move here and there. We could work something out. Mr. Engebretson: I would suggest you get Mr. Downes' telephone number and try to work that out with him before this plan proceeds because you know that this is under Court order and this is something that is destined to happen. The form of it isn't necessarily determined yet but the reality of this development taking place is pretty clear. It was directed by the Court. Mr. Cooper: Generally I am in favor of this. There are certain aspects such as the density that concerns me and the sidewalks but having that piece of land landlocked right now when it seems like it could be changed. Mr. Engebretson: All I can suggest is you talk to Mr. Downes. .. Mr. Cooper: I don't think there would be much interest if he doesn't have much interest to put sidewalks in. 11682 Lillian Edney, 15405 Harrison: I promised myself I was not going to get up here tonight but I am seeing red. I would like some clarification on the zoning. We fought all the time against condos and that is all I have heard since. Also, Harrison is going to get all the traffic. He even mentioned they were going to put the mailboxes off of Harrison. If this goes through, why couldn't they put the Nair mailboxes in the middle rather than everyone coming from Harrison? Also, I noticed in answering your questions Mr. Downes was very vague in a lot of the answers and it seems like he had a lot of open-ended options, which bothers me. When they start building is it going to be that vague? I have a feeling there are going to be a lot of sidewalk superintendents watching what goes on. We get an extremely lot of traffic as it is without that much density. Is there a possibility they could put stop signs on the opening at Harrison so the people would at least have to stop? I live in the second house from Five Mile. We have to go across the street to get our mail and sometimes I have to wait for six cars before I can cross the street and that is without 83 extra units. Could someone clarify that? It was supposed to be single family homes not condos. Mr. Engebretson: I think the Court made that decision. Mrs. Edney: But they said R-2. That is single family homes. Mr. Engebretson: But you heard Mr. Nagy. We asked him twice early on to read from the Court order that that did provide for this number of cluster homes to be built and as you also heard they are going right to the maximum, which is their right. Mrs. Edney: They are going to dump that in our backyard and they are going to be on their way. Mr. Gniewek: I think the lady is asking for a clarification of what can go into R-2. R-2 indicates a single family residence. Under the waiver use, cluster housing is allowed in R-2 so it is single family residential but technically we are supposed to call these cluster homes not condominiums. Mr. Engebretson: I think the term condominium is used to indicate a form of ownership. Condominiums can be single units. They can also be high-rise buildings. Charlotte Eickhoff, 28900 Rayburn: I have a couple of questions. Number one, the road within this development has been referred to as a private road. Is that correct? Mr. Engebretson: Yes. Ms. Eickhoff: Is it normal procedure or has it been with the City to open a private road onto a residential street versus a main or secondary road? Mr. Nagy: As we all know the City of Livonia does not have that many condominium projects. To say is this the only condominium that has access to a secondary street versus a mile road. No it is not. There are other examples. 11683 Ms. Eickhoff: But I don't live on a secondary street. I live on a residential street. Rayburn is not considered a secondary street according to the map the City sends out every year when it gives all the plowing schedules and what streets will get plowed first. It is always referred to as a residential street. rr.► Mr. Nagy: This project is residential. People will be residing there and they will have home ownership. Ms. Eickhoff: But they will be coming off a private road. Mr. Nagy: The public will have the right to go on this street. Ms. Eickhoff: What about us? Will we have the right to go on that street? Mr. Nagy: You will have the right to go on the street. The burden that this association is going to take is the maintenance of this road even though they lead to public roads. Within the project area they are going to have to take the burden of maintaining that as if it were a public street but anyone travelling on that road will not know the difference whether they are on a public or private road. Ms. Eickhoff: In other words, the sign that is at the end of our street that says "no outlet" will ultimately come down because there will be access going through. Am I correct? Mr. Nagy: I would think that is correct. Ms. Eickhoff: It means everytime there is a accident at Five Mile and Middlebelt and there is some kind of a backup, we will get all that traffic down Rayburn into this development. That will be real good for our �.. kids! We have sidewalks and that is nice but we also have many, many young kids that live in that neighborhood and we don't have any playgrounds around us. The only playgrounds these kids have are the streets and sidewalks. We have fought and fought to try to get them not to put a road through. There is no place for them to play. Rayburn is the only paved street. Roycroft is gravel. That is not a paved road and there are no sidewalks over there. The only street in this area with sidewalks close is Rayburn. There are no sidewalks on Broadmoor and there are no sidewalks on Harrison and there are no sidewalks and it is a gravel road on Roycroft. I don't know where our kids are supposed to play. Right now they play in the street. We don't have this great big backyard and there is no place else for them to play. We are not going to have an enclosed playground area here. What about the parking. You open that up then everybody that is looking for some place to park, they will say let's go park on Rayburn. That is all paved and they have sidewalks over there. We have someplace to walk and someplace to park and we don't have to worry about it. There are probably five of those units within close walking distance off that street. I have a two-car garage. Big deal. I couldn't park a car in there if I had to. My cars are on the driveway. What is to say these people are going to have the same situation. I really think something should be considered other 11684 than opening this. They had proposed a site plan at one time that had single units and brought in off Rayburn and Roycroft and then the rest coming from the other direction. That would have been a development such as this. I think they should either get some consideration to keeping that closed and keeping that private the way they want it or finding some way to limit that traffic either vr.y making it a one way in and a one way out or something of that nature or putting single family homes off Rayburn and Roycroft like they had presented it one other time. I think our kids have just as much right for a place to play as everyone else's and there is no playground within a one mile radius of that area. There is nothing between Middlebelt and Inkster, Five Mile and Six Mile. No place for these kids to play. I don't know about anybody else that has kids but I am not willing to let my 9 and 11 year old go across Five Mile and Middlebelt or some other main road to find a playground. I don't want them to get killed by a car. On the same token I don't want them to get run over down the street because we have this traffic racing in and out of this development. I really wish some more consideration would be given to this. Mr. Morrow: I want to respond to the young lady that just left the podium. I have diligently tried here tonight to find out if I had any latitude with this particular project and I have been convinced I have no latitute. We know we have gone through a number of rezonings in this particular area even some site plans. The neighbors have fought diligently to get it developed the way they want. The City has supported them in most of those cases. Here is a case where, in my mind, we never did get together so we had a Judge decide what is good for us. It is not that we are not sympathetic but perhaps that should have been addressed when the meeting with City and the Judge and the developer took place. I Slow know of no latitude that I have to reject this unless I have been misinformed tonight. Phillip Roberts: I own that landlocked lot there. I am just reiterating. I don't know how it could be that a road could be back there but I am just saying if it could be done, I wish it would be done. The only other suggestion I have about it is, this is off the wall, but there would be a lot of relief in setbacks and space to put things if you went to four units per building and have less buildings it would just put things further apart. I think that would be an area of latitude that would make it so you could get more open land or get things further apart. Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Downes, would there be any possibility of putting 83 units in a fewer number of buildings. Would that give you some more latitude in addressing issues like street width, sidewalks and health, safety and welfare issues like that? Mr. Nagy: Let me answer that. Mr. Downes did prepare a plan with four units and it was rejected on the basis that it was felt that this was a superior design. The scale of a three-unit building was a better scale with the typical detached single family home in the area as opposed to the four-unit cluster. The scales of the buildings would be lower. The other issue was one of garages. As you see on the rendering if you have four units in a row, then you have the tightness of at least two, sometimes three, garages facing directly fir. 11685 out on the road. With the three-unit cluster you can then have the ends so the garage doors don't front on the street. It was an aesthetic consideration. That is what it came down to. To answer the gentleman's question and your question, true clustering them together you get more open space. It was one of the options but in pursuing all the options, the settlement was on 28 units not more r`.,, than three to a cluster. Mr. Engebretson: John, you are referring to the Council rejecting it in the negotiation? Mr. Nagy: Exactly. Mrs. Robert Ostander, 15400 Harrison: I have two questions. One has to do with I would like it made clear, in every day terminology, layman language, why, this is all in the past, but I want to know why when that property was sold to the current owner, when it had originally been planned as part of a drive-thru from Five Mile into that property with Spiro, when that sale took place, when he decided he didn't want that property and he sold it, I want to know where was someone responsible to see that this thing was stopped at that point because Spiro had access. The new land owner did not, except coming in off these residential streets. I would like to know where the fault was at that time? The other question I have is why is Roycroft a no, no? We have two access areas. Why is Roycroft left free and clear? Why is that not funneled into this so there would be three roads going into that property? Those are my questions. Thank you. Mr. Nagy: Rightly or wrongly, when the City was first persuaded to rezone that property from the public land zoning classification to the ;` housing for the elderly and the office classification, Mr. Spiro was the abutting property owner and at that time persuaded the City to rezone the property for the elderly and the office so he could expand on his convalescent home. The City was persuaded and rezoned the property accordingly. By law you cannot enter into contract zoning. You have to make a decision whether it is good zoning or bad zoning regardless of whether Mr. Spiro or whoever develops it. You cannot say it is good for Mr. Spiro but no good for anyone else. You have to make a correct land use decision regardless of who builds it or when it is built whether it is appropriate or inappropriate. Admittedly we were persuaded by Mr. Spiro but when he left the scene we were then left with the zoning. You can't enter contract zoning and then jerk the zoning away. That is prohibited by law. In trying to come to a settlement on this lawsuit, the issue of traffic was one of the most paramount concerns in trying to settle our dispute. There was a real honest attempt to try to equitably distrubute the traffic in the area with trying to get traffic on Harrison, Roycroft and Rayburn so no one street or area share all the traffic but in doing so, we didn't want to make a straight roadway pattern through the entire site. We wanted to make it as indirect as possible so as to deter, to the extent possible, through traffic in the area. One of the issues was if the intersection of Five Mile and Middlebelt were to be 11686 congested, people then could shoot through this area, go up Harrison, go through the site, take Roycroft or Rayburn out to Middlebelt, or vice versa. So we tried to make it indirect to discourage through traffic. That is why the road pattern is as circuitous as you see with these cul-de-sacs. It is to allow ingress and egress to both sides of the property. To share the `.. traffic but not have a direct shot through there. If we were to run the road from Roycroft directly into the property, we felt that would be too direct. Plus Roycroft is unimproved as the lady said. It is a gravel road. That is why Rayburn was selected because it is a paved road but we ended it with a cul-de-sac so we have deliberately tried to make it as indirect as possible. That is the rationale behind it, right or wrong. Ms. Eickhoff: Just a couple more things, Mr. Nagy keeps referring to the lawsuit and if memory serves me this was settled out of Court. Supposedly we agreed to this by virtue of a few neighbors. I don't know if any of the Commission was here the night that happened but I know Mr. Nagy was here, the City attorney was here, and the Mayor was here. It was the Mayor's attempt to put some site plans in front of the people and he said pick one because otherwise we are going to go to Court and lose and you are going to get 103 condominiums. Basically that was what it amounted to. Right or wrong those few kind of wavered back and forth on what was here. In talking, out of all the neighbors that live in this area, there were 30 people. His letter did not say there was going to be any vote. He did not state that he wanted to find a way to settle this suit. He didn't say there was going to be any kind of vote just you might want to come in and have a discussion on it and the next thing you know he is taking a vote of the 30 people that showed up so part of them agreed to this and part of them agreed to the one development that I described that had homes at the end of Roycroft and Rayburn. Now if that was acceptable that night, I don't know why it is not acceptable now. They presented it that night as being an acceptable proposal with putting 8 homes at the end of Rayburn and 8 at the end of Roycroft and a cul-de-sac and the rest of that would have been cluster homes and would not have opened the street and would have eliminated a lot of traffic problems and would also have eliminated the problem with a through access here where there would otherwise be a need to worry about sidewalks. They just decided that because something like 18 people decided we should have it this way, that was what it was going to be. I disagreed with them and I disagree with them now. I still think they can develop this the other way. Another thing I question is what about the ecology standpoint? Are we going to strip this property bare? Is he going to try and leave some of the trees that are already existing in there? There is a lot of wildlife that lives in that field. I think doing this the way he is doing is not even in the best interest of the people that you are hoping to have buy this. I just am so upset with the whole thing. To be told the Court decided we should do this and we have been told we have to do that, when they had before them, and Mr. Nagy knows they had before them, a site plan that divided this property and put homes at one end and the rest of the development at another and it would have eliminated rr.. 11687 a lot of problems. This same concept is still being shoved down our throat. I think there are a lot of unanswered questions and as we get into this more, a lot more surprises that will pop up. Mr. Engebretson: John, I wasn't at that meeting. I don't think anyone from the Commission was. ter. Mr. Nagy: It was an advisory hearing that the Mayor had with interested area residents and a couple of members of the Council came in. Councilman Taylor and Councilman Feenstra were in attendance. It was a hearing at the Mayor's direction to meet with affected homeowners to air the matter. With respect to this fact that this was a settlement, maybe Planning Commissioner McCann can help me here, he could talk with more expertise that I can, but once a lawsuit is commenced, even though the parties to the dispute agree to something, it is still in the hands of the Judge. The Judge has to consent to dismissing the case and the Judge in consenting to that, enters into a Consent Judgment and this, in fact, was a lawsuit that had been adjudicated. The parties went into a binding agreement and the Judge puts it into a Consent Decree and the parties to the dispute are now bound by that decree. Rightly or wrongly, we agreed on that plan and that is the way it is. Mr. Engebretson: John, just so there is not any misunderstanding, we agreed on that specific plan without sidewalks, with 28 foot wide streets and with all the things the residents are concerned about? Mr. Nagy: We agreed to that plan in concept with respect to the 83 units, the road pattern, the heights of the buildings and the number of buildings. With respect to the other site standards, off-street parking, etc. , those kind of standards are bound by our ordinances. You have the flexibility to require sidewalks if in your judgment N'"' they are needed. If there is inadequate off-street parking in your judgment, and you want more off-street parking, you have the right to do that. You have the right to do that pursuant to your ordinance but in concept that is the plan. . Mr. Engebretson: Would our young attorney like to comment on that? Mr. McCann: I think Mr. Nagy probably went to law school by that last dissertation. That was very good. In effect, we had an agreement. We must follow it. It is my feeling all along there are certain things, especially with health, safety and welfare, which I believe sidewalks are a very critical part of, that some of the additional items that were not specifically listed in the agreement, therefore they are, for the purposes of tonight's hearing, negotiable and if the plan doesn't come up to the health, safety, welfare and the other items we discussed, we do have a right to deny. Mr. Engebretson: John, does this go on to the Council regardless of which way we go tonight? The Council will make a final decision on this. Bill Paschen, 29010 Rayburn: I thought I heard a few minutes ago that there could be 83 or less units. What did the other plan give exactly for units? Do you recall? It was very close to what you had. 11688 Mr. Nagy: All plans came up with 83 units. It was the combination. Some were going to have single family lots. Some were going to have the three-unit clusters. Some were going to have all clusters but there were going to be some fours and some threes. All plans, the final number that was resolved and we started with 123, 103, 98 and finally got to a point of 83 and that seemed to be the point we `�. settled at. Mr. Paschen: I think the discussion is how did we get to 83. I hate to beat a dead dog here. If we are beating a dead dog, what are we all doing here? You are trying to explain to us how we can't back out of this plan but you are talking about the same number of units so why can't there be a reversal and close that street off like people would be happy with? If I go back to that first night, that is a very sore subject. There were very few people here. We shouldn't have been put in that position at all. That is a very sore subject to everyone in that neighborhood so why couldn't there be some consideration for us for a change and try to get something we all agree on? The whole issue is the number of units. If it meets the specifications the other way then why doesn't somebody do it to stop all the haggling over this thing? Is there no reversal on this gentlemen? None at all? Mr. Engebretson: What about it Mr. McCann, from a legal point of view? Mr. McCann: From a legal point of view, they have an enforceable judgment. We can always negotiate with the developers. Just because there is a judgment in there, we could discuss it with the developers, but should they pursue it with the Court, the Court would probably affirm the judgment that has already been entered unless we could show good cause why at the time we did it. Mr. Paschen: Didn't the City go to the Court with this plan? Mr. Nagy: It was acceptable to the City. Mr. Paschen: Now we come back to my point. Why are we beating a dead dog? I guess if we were sold down the river to begin with, there is no need to be here. Mr. Engebretson: There are some issues, if you are listening sir. You have heard in the past three or four minutes that whereas there is a Court order that directs this property to be developed with 83 cluster units on it, you have heard also there are some things that can be discussed and implemented to promote the health, safety and welfare issues of the community, such as sidewalks. It is not exactly as if we are accomplishing nothing here tonight. Mr. Paschen: What are we going to accomplish? Mr. Engebretson: Let's see what happens. The public hearing isn't closed yet. Mr. Paschen: What are your positions? 11689 Mr. Engebretson: You will find out. You have heard an attorney say this developer has an enforceable Court order so we don't have the authority to overturn that Court order. Mr. Paschen: I also heard him say it's not a fact that it is in cement either. Didn't you say it was something that could be negotiated, something '�. that could be changed? Mr. McCann: What I am saying is any time the developer changed his mind and agreed, we could come up with an alternative plan should the developer agree to it. Just because there is a Court order saying this, we don't have to follow this if the developer came to us and said I would like to do this and changed his plan and we agreed to it. That is a possibility. However, if the developer wanted to keep this plan, he could ask the Court to enforce it. Mr. Paschen: Suppose the City says the streets aren't wide enough and there aren't any sidewalks. Does that consider the other plan and make it reasonable and make it worthwhile to everybody. Mr. Engebretson: It may. Be sure you attend the Council's hearing on this and make sure you let them know how you feel. Mrs. Ostander: The only thing I was going to mention, too, was the fact that what you are saying is the developer has the right to put 83 units in. That is a foregone conclusion, but you people also have some rights here to insist on sidewalks and wider roads and maybe more ample whatever and that might put the developer in a spot where he might say I don't want to do this much, we don't have room, we will go to less homes. That can also be an outcome right? Mr. Engebretson: I think you are exactly right. There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 91-5-2-14 closed. Mr. McCann: We can't force them to do anything else. We can do things that are within reason that the City has a viable interest in such as sidewalks, which, and again I am not privy to this action, I don't know what the side agreements were, whether they were listed or not, but from what I understand it is with the City's health, safety and welfare to put in sidewalks. It wasn't made a part of the judgment either way, therefore it is an item that we do have some say on. Mr. Gniewek: Just another point so the people here will understand. The Planning Commission, all we are is a recommending board. Whatever we say here tonight, whether we vote for or against it, the Council can go either one way or the other. If we vote against it tonight and the Council feels they have to uphold the Court action, they can go ahead and overturn our decision at this point in time. All we are is a recommending board. We can recommend the sidewalks and we can recommend a lot of other things. We can recommend no thru traffic signs but when it gets to the Council, the Council decides 11690 and maybe they won't go along with those ideas. They can overturn any recommendation we make. We are just a recommending board. We are a fact finding board and present them a case and they look at it and then they make the final decision so all your comments you make here this evening should be brought up again at their meeting. `... Mr. Engebretson: I will add that all the comments they made here tonight are a part of the public record and they will go on to the Council. That is not to say that you shouldn't go and express your comments in person. There are three things that can happen tonight. The Planning Commission can recommend approval of this plan either as is or with some possible changes, such as the sidewalks. The Planning Commission can recommend that it be denied for various reasons or it is possible that it could be tabled for further discussion to try to work some of these issues out. Those are the three things that can happen. Mr. Downes did you want to say something more? Mr. Downes: I would like to add one last thing. The Consent Judgment covers certain specific areas. The most important areas, concept and numbers. It covers the general types because the floor plans were involved. We still are bound for the most part, unless they are in opposition to what the Consent Judgment says, we still are bound to abide with the zoning ordinances and I don't think there is any dispute on that part. We are still bound to abide by the zoning ordinance except where R-2 would allow 60, we are allowed 83. That is covered by the Consent. Anything that is not covered by the Consent, we are still bound by the zoning ordinance. The same thing has to do with engineering. We are still bound with engineering. We are required, for example, to put stop signs at both end of the street. That is part of the City's engineering ordinance so we are still bound by those particular points of the Nft" ordinance. Mr. LaPine: John, are we bound by the Consent Agreement about the road? There seems to be a lot of problems here with this traffic coming off Rayburn. What if we eliminated the Rayburn exit and just had a loop road so they could come and go only one way from Rayburn. Is that something we can change or does the Judge say you have to have the two roads? Mr. Nagy: The road pattern has to be adhered to. Mr. LaPine: We have no choice. That is part of the thing they said you have to have the roads the way they are, so that eliminates that situation. Mr. Engebretson: It is a complicated issue and we need to deal with it in one of the three ways. I am looking for a motion. On a motion duly made by Mr. Tent and seconded by Mr. Kluver, it was RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 18, 1991 on Petition 91-5-2-14 by Michael S. Downes & Assoc. requesting waiver use approval to construct a single family cluster development on �rv- 11691 the west side of Harrison between Five Mile and Broadmoor in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 13, the City Planning Commission does hereby determine to table Petition 91-5-2-14 until the Study Meeting of August 13, 1991. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in `lour accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Tent, Kluver, Engebretson NAYS: McCann, Gniewek, LaPine, Morrow, Vyhnalek ABSENT: Fandrei Mr. Engebretson, Chairman declared the motion failed for lack of support. On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann and seconded by Mr. Gniewek, it was #6-101-91 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 18, 1991 on Petition 91-5-2-14 by Michael S. Downes & Assoc. requesting waiver use approval to construct a single family cluster development on the west side of Harrison between Five Mile and Broadmoor in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 13, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 91-5-2-14 be denied for the following reasons: 1) That the petitioner has failed to affirmatively show that the proposed use is in compliance with all of the general waiver use standards and requirements as set forth in Section 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance #543. `r ► 2) That the proposed use is incompatible to and not in harmony with the surrounding uses in the area. 3) That the proposed use will place an unfair traffic burden on the local roads giving access to the subject land area. 4) That the proposal will not promote the health, safety and general welfare of its residents because of the lack of pedestrian sidewalks. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Tent, McCann, Gniewek, Morrow, Vyhlanek, Engebretson NAYS: Kluver, LaPine ABSENT: Fandrei Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. 11692 Mr. Tent, Acting Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 91-5-2-15 by Trerice Tosto Management Co. requesting waiver use approval to operate an automobile collision repair shop within a portion of an existing building located on the west side of Belden Court north of Plymouth Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 28. vim,,. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Nagy: We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating they have no objections to this waiver use proposal. We have also received a letter from the Division of Fire stating they have no objection to this proposal, however, if the adjoining tenant is of a different use group, a 3 hr. fire separation wall will be required along with an automatic fire suppression system to the spray booth. A letter is also in our file from the Traffic Bureau stating 1) Per the site plan, we find 11 parking places. Two of the 11 will be eliminated due to their placement in front of exit doors. 2) No storage area is shown for vehicles waiting repair. This area should be fenced. 3) No dumpster area is shown. 4) No location for discarded damaged auto parts. We have received a letter from the Ordinance Enforcement Division stating the following deficiencies or problems were found: 1. Deficient Parking. If the standard formula of two spaces per bay and one for each employee is utilized, 16 spaces are required - 12 are provided - deficient 4 spaces. However, the formula may not accurately represent the true picture at this particular location. All of the buildings on the west side of Belden Court are under the provision of a variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals which ``aw allowed 15' rear yards. There is not sufficient space in the rear yard for a car to park and a lane for traffic to pass through. The Board further conditioned that there "Be no parking in the front yard areas," and "That there should be no outside storage on these parcels at any time." The Planning Commission took note of these requirements when they approved the waiver use for auto repairs in the south end of this building. The parking situation is further complicated in that the waiver use requirements call for the lot to be fenced, and, fencing the side yard would render this parking and the parking for the building to the north unusable as they are served by a common drive. 2. The proposed paint spray booth will require certification from the Wayne County Department of Public Health Air Pollution Control Division. A copy of this report was furnished to the petitioner to clarify the matter of the particular layout to determine the number of bays. A new plan was prepared and submitted to the Ordinance Enforcement Division requesting a new letter based upon the revised floor plan. We did receive a new report at five o'clock this afternoon. They indicated they needed additional time to evaluate the new floor plan. I have nothing further to add other than there has been a revised floor plan to try and clarify some of the issues raised by the Ordinance Enforcement but again that division needs additional time to prepare their analysis. 11693 Mr. Engebretson: Is the petitioner here? Pam Kline, representing Trerice Tosto Management Co. , 32100 Telegraph Road, Birmingham: We act as managing agent for the owner, Prudential Insurance Company and basically the reason for this request is the adjacent tenant, who is now a lease tenant, is of the same use and has been granted a waiver for the type of use that has existed in this building. They also are affiliated with the proposed tenant and they are a sister company so they will be working together. No outside storage is required by the tenant and it will be specifically listed in the lease that outside storage is prohibited by the owner. We foresee no problem with that. Dan Buchan, 37850 Grantland: Gentlemen, I wish to state that there will be no outside storage of wrecked or damaged or junk vehicles of any sort and my background in management and business dictates that of a clean professional image that I have always maintained in any position that I have held and it will carry over into this line as well. Mr. LaPine: How many vehicles will you be able to have inside the building at any one time? Mr. Buchan: I have three basic work areas. I will employ only three auto body repairmen. The paint booth is separate and the frame machine will be separate areas. They will not be ongoing work areas at one time. The three gentlemen that will be repairing the vehicles will ultimately vacate that area they were working in, take it to the other area, do the repair they need and then once the vehicle is finished, it will go to a taping area and then be painted. \. Mr. LaPine: Are you telling me you could have three vehicles that they could be working on the body, you could have one vehicle on straightening the body and conceivably one could be in the paint booth. You have five vehicles that conceivably could be in this building at one time? Mr. Buchan: No. There would be more than that. There would be six vehicles abreast along the south wall and one in each staging area. In other words, in the auto body business you would have vehicles that would be in various stages of repair. Mr. LaPine: How many vehicles could you have inside the building at any one time? Mr. Buchan: I estimate in the area of 14 to 15 vehicles. Mr. LaPine: If at any one time you have more than 14 vehicles, if anybody else came in with any damaged vehicles, you couldn't accept them. Mr. Buchan: That is correct. Mr. LaPine: We don't want to see two or three damaged cars waiting outside and your argument could be that tomorrow you are getting rid of three cars so then I could bring three cars in. That is what I want to understand. There will be no more than 14 cars inside the building at any one time. 11694 Mr. Buchan: Yes. That is correct. Mr. Kluver: If you had a maximum of 14 vehicles inside your shop in various stages of reconstruction and repair, how would you handle your replacement parts? Mr. Buchan: There will be a purveyor that will come in and take away the damaged metal and also that storage area is behind the paint booth near the back overhead door. It is not shown on the site plan now but there will be a rolling dumpster there that we can put those things into. Mr. Kluver: Internally? Mr. Buchan: Yes internally. Inside the building. There will be no outside storage. Mr. Vyhnalek: According to Mr. Nagy, you have 11 parking spaces, 2 are to be removed to avoid the exit doors, that leaves 9, and you have 3 employees and 1 for yourself, you are down to 5 parking spaces. We have had so many repair shops throughout the years that have had so many cars stacked because of the delay in parts or people not picking them up right away and they have to store them someplace. What do you do if you have a car finished and Joe public is out of town and can't pick it up? What do you do with that car? It is all done and it is costing you money to leave it sit inside? Mr. Buchan: The aisleways are 16 feet wide inside the building. The entire layout of the area was designed to keep in mind a clean, safe work environment and overnight the vehicles will be stored in there and pulled out the next morning. Fourteen vehicles can be in the building at the same time. Mr. Vyhnalek: Doesn't that get a little tight? Mr. Buchan: No sir. This is a very large facility. Mr. Vyhnalek: Every bump shop I have been to there are always a bunch of cars waiting outside. That is my only concern. Mr. Kluver: Do you do insurance business? Mr. Buchan: Yes. Mr. Kluver: Is it exclusively insurance? Mr. Buchan: No it is not. Between 60% to 70% is insurance business. I am currently affiliated with the Triple A Livonia Claims Office, Citizens and State Farm. Yesterday I picked up the Wayne County Sheriff's Department. I will be on an open business with them. I have Livonia Chrysler Plymouth and I am currently talking with Bill Brown Ford. 11695 Mr. Tent: Mr. Nagy, a revised site plan has been submitted and you said the Inspection Department has it and they were looking at it. Have we taken a look at it as far as the staff is concerned, and would you comment on it? "%ow Mr. Nagy: It is a floor plan not a site plan. It is trying to get more specificity to the way that internal operations of the building are handled to determine how many actual booths are there where cars can be worked on and that kind of thing so we can properly evaluate the outside of the property for off-street parking. Mr. Tent: The internal part of the building that they have indicated they can store 14 vehicles, they have wide aisles, have we looked at all of that and does that meet the ordinance? Mr. Nagy: Yes we have looked at that and we agree with his findings in terms of the capacity of that building to accommodate the cars he indicates. Mr. Tent: Then in the opinion of our staff this property is adequate to go ahead and function as they request? Mr. Nagy: It meets the standards of our ordinance but it is your decision to make as far as the capacity of the site. With respect to the technical requirements of our ordinance, we are satisfied there is compliance but the final decision as to zoning ordinance compliance is still with our Inspection Department. Mr. Tent: Is there anything within this proposal that would have to go to the ZBA? Mr. Nagy: We have a report right now from the Inspection Department that says there is lack of compliance. Unless there is a new report that withdraws the original findings, they would go to the ZBA. That is the basis for the new report. On the record right now there are deficiencies and we are trying to get the agency that determines those deficiencies say they are still deficient or, based upon the new plan, they are no longer deficient. Mr. Tent: What we are gathering now is information so in reality we couldn't act on this until we get that report. Mr. Engebretson: Ray, I think what Mr. Nagy said earlier was that the new plan to deal with the deficiencies was submitted at five o'clock today. The report that is on record stands but it will probably be modified based on the plans that were submitted. Mr. Nagy: The only thing I would say in defense of the petitioner, the plan was not submitted today at five o'clock. The plan was submitted early last week, Wednesday or Thursday. The Inspection Department only today at five o'clock advised us they would not have a report to us. They needed additional time. Mr. Vyhnalek: Would you explain to me what the south half of this building is used for? 11696 Mr. Buchan: It is presently being leased by Motion Automotive. They repair vehicles mechanically and they work in conjunction with me in that my facility won't be doing air conditioning or making repairs. We work hand in hand principally through the insurance companies. `— Mr. Vyhnalek: There is no doorway between you? Mr. Buchan: No there is no doorway. Mr. Vyhnalek: You understood about the fire protection? Mr. Buchan: Yes and the paint booth will be constructed by a licensed individual and will comply with all health requirements. They have already been contacted and we are simply waiting for the variance approval before I go any further. Mr. Vyhnalek: Your representative said something about some insurance company at first? Mr. Kline: The owner of the building, the landlord, is Prudential Insurance Company. Mr. Gniewek: Mr. Nagy, the present waiver that does exist in that particular building, would not allow for any body repairs. Is that correct? Mr. Nagy: I don't think that is correct. What it would not allow is the outside storage. Mr. Gniewek: We have determined that because this petition does auto body work it would not be allowed to locate in the south half of the building Nur as opposed to body work. Mr. Nagy: I thought you meant the overall waiver that was granted by the Zoning Board with respect to the front yard setbacks. Mr. Gniewek: No the waiver that was granted for the use of the south half. Mr. Nagy: Yes you are correct. It would not allow any body repair. Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Buchan, in a few sentences give us a perspective of your experience in this field. Mr. Buchan: I was the individual who at Budget Rent A Car for the past few years turned back all the vehicles to Ford Motor Company through their program and I also disposed of the vehicles through auctions throughout the United States so I was active in working with the body people. I have no body shop experience hands on but I have the management capabilities to put this together and see things will work as they should. All of my management background is in the restaurant business so cleanliness and image is a great concern to me so I can assure you that it will be a plus to the community. It is not something that will be an eyesore. 11697 Mr. Kluver: Is this a franchise operation or solely owned by you? Mr. Buchan: It is solely owned by me. Priscilla Hunter, 34902 Standish: I am real concerned about a number of things "Nom' with him going in there. Noise and pollution is one of our great problems. We get a tremendous amount of pollution from all the industry around as it is. I wake up every morning and I have black soot all over my pool, all over my patio furniture, all over everything. We need no more. This Motion Automotive that they are going to be in conjunction with, we thought that Ford Motor Company had opened up their track again. They have not opened up their track but Motion Automotive has. They are racing cars up and down Belden Court. We have had to call the police many times. There is a lot of dumpster noise, a lot of car noise, a lot of pollution. We don't need any more down there. There are alarms going off all hours of the night. We have too much noise. During the day all kinds of PA systems from Bill Brown and from the Volkswagon dealership. We don't need any more. We have enough. We don't want any more automotive. There is a track down at the end of Belden Park that is being used. People come from all over to use this track. It is motorcycles, dirt bikes, etc. We can hear them running all the time. Now we have Motion Automotive racing their cars. We used to have Ford Motor Company racing around their test track but they were there when we moved in. These people have not been there and we do not want them. We don't want any more trash outside. We don't want any more dumpsters. We are fed up. We have Budget Rent A Car, which he was affiliated with. Now they have all their employees parking on Boston Post because they have no room for their employees to park. What are you people doing for o�.. all of us who live in this small subdivision? You are just making it impossible for us to live anymore. Please help us. Cheryl Groves, 11701 Boston Post: I am the President of Alden Village. We do have a similar facility to what this gentleman is proposing. It is called Livonia Collision. It is at 12331 Stark Road. Two years ago June we were also here for this gentleman. He put in a 7 foot wall as a buffer. We still have noise. He was supposed to have a dumpster within the facility. He doesn't have the room, therefore, it goes outside. It stays outside. Cars, they paint them. It gets hot in there in the summer. We understand that but the cars have been brought outside to dry or are brought outside to grind. This building is closer to our homes but it is still noise. We don't want any more noise. With that Court we have more problems to call the police on. It is ridiculous. We shouldn't have to patrol it and go over there and find out what is going on. It would be different if it was a good neighbor policy. We even went to bat for them and fought for them because the owner was going to make them move. I don't want the facility here because it affects quite a few of our homes and there is going to be noise. Even if it is fenced in, you already have them stealing cars from Bill Brown. If there is even one vehicle left out there, it is a risk and no one will be there to protect them. We don't want the 11698 responsibility. We knew when we moved here, that you would have the noise, that you would have industry but not like we have. Industry and residential can work together so long but when they make promises they can't keep, then unfortunately when someone comes along like this gentleman here that wants to put this business in, we don't want to be their neighbors anymore. We don't want them there. Mr. Engebretson: What was the business you were referring to that was working outside? Ms. Groves: Livonia Collision, 12331 Stark Road. There was also the school that worked outside. Mr. Morrow: I was at that hearing. If I remember correctly, he indicated that there would be no outside storage. There would be no junk cars or cars in various states of repair stored outside and all work would be done inside. You must also remember we hear a lot of promises that are not kept as it relates to outside storage of vehicles. Ms. Groves: We have to live with them. Mr. Tent: What Ms. Groves said was quite interesting because it is a problem in the area and these petitioners that come before us, if they don't abide by the resolutions, something should be done. I am going to ask Mr. Nagy to alert the Ordinance Enforcement Division about the conditions there and give us a report at the next study meeting. Let them know we are concerned. I too remember the meeting when they indicated they would not do any outside work. John O'Connor, 34965 Wadsworth: I am real close. I am right along the wall there. I don't have a lot of problems with Bill Brown when they page during the day because I work but I do catch them occasionally when I come home for lunch and they will be paging the porter and there is a lot of noise. I happen to know Dan, who is petitioning for this, but the way it was zoned it was set up not to have a body shop and the association agreed and I think that is what they should stand by. Once it starts, it is not going to stop and there are a lot of vacant buildings there. We have a nice little quiet neighborhood. There is a lot of trash that comes over from the dumpsters and what not. We would just like to keep it that way. We are not asking for a lot. We would just like them to abide by the zoning. Ms. Hunter: Sixty percent of the business is insurance, what is the other forty percent? Mr. Buchan: Private. I have a very low percentage that is off the street. I am not looking for a lot of that business. What I am looking for is a lot of newer model vehicles. You won't be seeing 57's or 62's. There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 91-5-2-15 closed. fir. 11699 On a motion duly made by Mr. Kluver, seconded by Mr. Tent and unanimously approved, it was #6-102-93 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 18, 1991 on Petition 91-5-2-15 by Trerice Tosto Management Co. requesting waiver use approval to operate an automobile collision repair shop. within a portion of an existing building located on the west side of Belden Court north of Plymouth Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 28, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 91-5-2-15 be denied for the following reasons: 1) That the petitioner has failed to affirmatively show that the proposed use is in compliance with all of the special and general waiver use standards and requirements as set forth in Section 16.11 and 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance 11543. 2) That the subject site does not have the capacity to accommodate the proposed use. 3) That the proposed use is not compatible to the balance of the uses within the Belden Court Industrial Subdivision in that the prospect of having damaged vehicles, auto parts, wreckers, etc. present on the subject site is contrary to the light industrial usage with limited outside storage sought to be preserved in the typical industrial subdivision in the City of Livonia. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. 'Nr.► Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Mr. Engebretson: I am going to support the denying resolution not because I think the gentleman doesn't have a good business plan but I think the neighbors' interest transcends that business opportunity and I would hope that you would find a better place to locate your business in Livonia if this process should fail to deliver this capability to you. Mr. Tent, Acting Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda was Petition 91-5-2-16 by Richard Gergis for Drugland requesting waiver use approval to utilize SDD & SDM licenses within an existing building located on the southeast corner of Middlebelt and St. Martins Avenue in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 1. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Nagy: We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating they have no objections to this waiver use proposal. We have also received a letter from the Division of Fire stating their office has no objection to this proposal. Also in our file is a letter from the Ordinance Enforcement Division stating no deficiencies or `or.- 11700 problems were found. A letter from the Traffic Bureau states 1) No landscaping is shown along Middlebelt. When this is turned in, a 30 foot clear sight distance will have to be allowed for the sidewalk. 2) The plan also does not show what even signage this building will have. This will also have to be considered in the `4i"' clear sight distance. Mr. Engebretson: Is the petitioner here? Richard Gergis: I am the owner of the business previously known as Drugland, now it is Livonia Foods, and I intend to move this store from where it is simply because we have had a lot of accidents in front of our location. Our location does not have adequate parking. We have the fire station across the street from us. We have a traffic light that is always green and the traffic, once it takes off on Seven Mile, by the time they are by our store they are going about 35 mph and they can't come into the store. For that reason we lost a lot of money. I have been in that particular location for three years. I lost a lot of money, big money. I can't stay in business where I am. I own the building and it is for sale. We are moving into a smaller unit. We now occupy 8400 square feet and we don't even do $600 or $700 a day of business so we can't stay in business where we are. I went to the owners of St. Martins Plaza and negotiated to lease from them a smaller unit, which is about 3200 square feet, and what I intend to do is to move my licenses and my business there and operate as a family operation. Just a small store so we can survive. Right now our light bills are $2,000 a month. Over there we would probably pay about $600. That is why we want to move our store. `,, Mr. Vyhnalek: You are changing from a drugstore to a food store? You are leaving the drug business? Mr. Gergis: I have already done so in my location for the past year or so. I changed the name of the store from Drugland to Livonia Foods trying to attract more people. Mr. Vyhnalek: What will you have in there? Mr. Gergis: Same items that we have always had. Beer, wine and party food. Mr. Vyhnalek: You are going to have a glorified party store? Mr. Gergis: That is right. I can't compete with Perry, Arbor. I can't compete with K-Mart. There is no way I can stay in business as a drugstore. Mr. Vyhnalek: The Commissioners here have a problem. We have no problem with another establishment within 1000 feet of your SDD but we do have Cantoro Italian Market within 500 feet of your SDM license, which means we can recommend to Council but we can't approve. Council is the only one that can waive that. 11701 Mr. Gergis: The SDM which Cantoro has, he sells wholesale and retail and he closes at six o'clock in the evening. With me the licenses that I have, the SDD is referred to as a liquor license and the SDM is referred to as a beer and wine. I have both of them. I am not adding anything else in the area. I am only moving simply because `om. of hardship. Mr. Vyhnalek: Have you sold your building? Mr. Gergis: I can't find any buyers. Nobody wants to buy that building. I will keep it clean until I find a tenant. I will tell you something. Ken Stabler, when he owned Drugland on the corner of Seven Mile and Middlebelt, he was successful because it was easy in and out across from the mall. The minute he moved it here, it became a dead issue. There is no way any retail operation, such as mine, can succeed in there. Mark Morad, 29137 St. Martins: I am opposed to a liquor store and party store going into our corner. I also am in the retail business and have been for 21 years. I have three children and I am three houses behind the mall. One of the reasons I am opposed to the liquor license and beer and wine license at our corner is, and it has been mentioned about Cantoro who is only 500 feet away, my three children plus quite a few other children in that corner street, we don't really need another liquor license on that corner. We don't need the traffic at this corner either. Our street right now is posted 25 mph but it runs anywhere from 45 to 60 mph and there are no sidewalks so most of the kids drive up and down their driveways and some of the older kids in the street. The other reason I am opposed to this store being moved down there would be the increased `r.. traffic in delivery trucks. Being in the retail business, you would have quite a few and if business is going to increase for this gentleman, it will increase his deliveries. I don't believe this corner where it is right now needs another liquor store. I believe this store, if I was the owner, I would be on the corner of Seven Mile and Middlebelt where it originally was where he can get his customers in and out. The parking lot is not any bigger than the one where he is now. I don't believe the access would be any easier. The traffic would back up and essentially go east on St. Martins instead of going to Middlebelt. Randy Silvernail, 29123 St. Martins: I am here to oppose it. As Mr. Morad said, for one reason we don't need another liquor store. The second reason Cantoros is quite a hot spot for the teenagers to go down for a pop. The junior high and the high school are within two blocks and the elementary school is within three blocks. I don't want to have my children walking past a liquor store every day. It will be a high traffic area. It is a high traffic area now predominately because of Livonia Mall. There is a subdivision to the north and east of us which quite frequently comes out that way because of the convenience of the traffic light. We do have a few hot rodders. We do have a few people that are frequenting the mall area now that don't want to wait for a traffic light, that do come east on St. Martins which increases the traffic area and we do have 11702 quite a few small children out there and it is our concern to protect our children from the traffic and anything else that might harm them. The other issue is we do have some convenience stores up there and we are experiencing quite a bit of litter on our front lawns. With the extent of what this man is going to sell at his 'Now party store and knowing some of the kids that frequent outside the party stores, it is going to increase that problem in our area and frankly we don't need it. Mr. Gergis: I just want to say I have been in the area over three years. I have never had any problems at all. I already have the liquor license in that area. Furthermore, for the past 25 years I have held several liquor licenses in and around the suburban area of Novi, West Bloomfield, and I have never had any violations whatsoever because I know how to handle the business of drugstores and party stores. There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 91-5-2-16 closed. On a motion duly made by Mr. Tent and seconded by Mr. LaPine, it was 116-103-91 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 18, 1991 on Petition 91-5-2-16 by Richard Gergis for Drugland requesting waiver use approval to utilize SDD & SDM licenses within an existing building located on the southeast corner of Middlebelt and St. Martins Avenue in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 1, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 91-5-2-16 be denied for the following reasons: 1) That the petitioner has failed to affirmatively show that the proposed use is in compliance with all of the special and general waiver use standards and requirements as set forth in Section 10.03 and 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance 11543. 2) That the proposed use fails to comply with Section 10.03(g)(1) of the Zoning Ordinance 11543 which requires that there be a 500 foot separation between SDM Licenses. 3) That this area of the City is currently well served with both SDM and SDD licensed facilities. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance 11543, as amended. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Tent, McCann, Gniewek, Kluver, LaPine, Morrow, Engebretson NAYS: Vyhnalek ABSENT: Fandrei Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. �..- Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, announced that the public hearing portion of the meeting is concluded and the Commission would proceed with items pending before it. 11703 On a motion duly made by Mr. Gniewek, seconded by Mr. Kluver and unanimously approved, it was #6-104-91 RESOLVED that, the minutes of the 624th Regular Meeting & Public Hearings held on June 4, 1991 are approved. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. On a motion duly made by Mr. LaPine, seconded by Mr. Morrow and unanimously approved, it was #6-105-91 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 91-5-8-9 by Michael S. Downes and Assoc. requesting approval of all plans required by Section 8.02 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to construct multi family housing units on the north side of Seven Mile between Merriman and Farmington Roads in Section 3, be approved subject to the following conditions: 1) That Site Plan 0120 Sheet 1 dated 5/6/91 prepared by Michael S. Downes and Associates, Inc. is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2) That Building Plan 0120 Sheet 2 dated 5/6/91 prepared by Michael S. Downes and Assoc. , is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 3) That Landscape Plan 67091-A dated 6/12/91 prepared by Calvin Hall and Assoc. is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; `New 4) That the petitioner obtain a favorable variance for carports in the required side yards from the Zoning Board of Appeals. 5) That this approval is subject to the petitioner obtaining proper rezoning of the property from R-9 to R-7 zoning classification from the City Council. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. On a motion duly made by Mr. Morrow, seconded by Mr. Vyhnalek and unanimously approved, it was #6-106-91 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 91-5-8-10 by Gerald T. Genette requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.47 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to construct a parking lot for the V.F.W. Post located on the south side of Seven Mile just east of Middlebelt in Section 12, be approved subject to the following conditions: 1) That parking lot plan for Livonia Post #3941-V.F.W. as revised on 6/14/91 by L. Podger is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2) That the landscaping shown on the approved plan be installed prior to use of the lot for parking cars. `rr. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. 11704 On a motion duly made by Mr. Vyhnalek, seconded by Mr. McCann and unanimously approved, it was #6-107-91 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the ‘141.- City Council that Petition 91-6-8-11 by Jim's Microwave Communications requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.47 of Zoning Ordinance ##543 in connection with a proposal to install a telecommunications satellite dish on the roof of a building located on the south side of Seven Mile just west of I-275 in Section 7, be approved subject to the following condition: 1) That the roof top site plan prepared by Jim's Microwave Communications for the Tandy Corp. located at 38705 W. Seven Mile is hereby approved and shall be adhered to. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 625th Regular Meeting and Public Hearings held on June 18, 1991 was adjourned at 10:23 p.m. CITY PLANNING COMMISSION Raym d W. Tent, Acting Secretary ATTEST: i t, L 11 & nen Jack Engebretison, Chairman jg