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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MINUTES 2016-09-27A Special Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, September 27, 2016. MEMBERS PRESENT: Matthew Henzi, Chairman Craig Pastor, Vice Chairman James M. Baringhaus, Secretary Leo Neville Gregory G. Coppola Benjamin A. Schepis Timothy J. Klisz MEMBERS ABSENT: OTHERS PRESENT: Mike Fisher, City Attorney Craig Hanosh, City Inspector Beth Niemczewski, CER -7224 The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight's minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Seven (7) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 28 people present in the audience. (7:00) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 73 September 27, 2016 APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-07-53 Eabled on July 26 2016): An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Christopher Gable, 35875 West Chicago, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to perform firearm sales and distribution from a personal residence which is not allowed. The property is located on the south side of West Chicago (35875), between Arthur and west end (dead end), Lot. No. 125.02-0587--000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 4.02 (g), 3, g, "Permitted Uses." Henzi: Is there a motion to remove from the table? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I'll make a motion to remove. Henzi: Is there a support? Baringhaus: Support. Henzi: Support by Mr. Baringhaus. All in favor, say aye. Board Members: Aye. Henzi: Thank you. Mr. Hanosh, anything to add to this case? Hanosh: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Coppola: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: There was a suggestion that there would be additional research done between the last meeting and -- and this meeting in regards to a number of -- of licensed firearm dealers in residential areas that didn't appear to have received -- receive variances. Is any of -- any additional research been done? Hanosh: I know according to the -- there's a list that was provided to the Petitioner tonight, and he does have, actually, on that list a few that were signed for. I did not complete a list like that. There are some in the city that I do know have been granted the last so many years. I would say less than two or three. That when we spoke to Mr. Abrahamson City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 73 September 27, 2016 about it, had nothing I can't -- there's no way for me to search up each individual address itself in the computer system. We would have to have the address itself before we are able to do a search for it. Coppola: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions. Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table? Good evening. Jastren: Kyle Jastren, 35875 West Chicago Street. Gable: Chris Gable, 35875 West Chicago Street. Henzi: Okay. Gentleman, you were here once before on July 26th. Go ahead and refresh our memories about your business model and request. Jastren: Yes. So it is okay if maybe I stand up so the people in back can hear me, or can everybody here me back there? Okay. I know there was some issue with people hearing me last time. Really our business model is based upon the premise that -- that I'm a disabled veteran. I'm looking to work with my step -father to open a business because there's going to be -- in a few years, I'm not going to be able to work anymore. So I'm looking to -- to start this opportunity with my step -dad. This is a passion that we both have for firearms. Really the reason that we're here, is this business model is largely e-commerce based, but one of the services that we want to offer our potential consumers, is transfer of firearms. Now what that entails is as a Federal Firearm Licensee, when you receive that firearm arm, you go ahead and do that background check and transfer that firearm to the potential purchaser. Again, this is a process or a service that we want to offer to our customers. Largely, our business is e-commerce based, which means we'd sell those firearms, drop ship from a wholesaler to another Federal Firearms Licensee through a website portal. I know there was a lot of discussion surrounding traffic related to that, and we kind of touched on that the last meeting. Really the -- the traffic situation, think, is -- is related to the people picking up transfers. I don't think it's related to deliveries. We have UPS that goes up and down our street two times, already, daily and FedEx once. But what we talked about during the last meeting was the amount of transfers that we intend to offer is very minimal. It's -- it's an additional service, right. It's not I'm going to have a revolving door, or Chis is going to have a revolving door at his residence to offer that. It's -- you know -- if a potential customer wants that service, it's there to be offered. Now, we also talked about businesses in homes, and how that compared to other businesses. That was really the root of a lot of the discussion during our last meeting, as well. What we did, is we -- we researched, not only, Federal Firearms Licensees in the city of Livonia, which I believe, there are nine that offer the same services City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 73 September 27, 2016 that we intend to offer. Operating at residential homes in the city of Livonia, and that list has been provided. That is list is furnished from the Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms website. Those are licensees that have been licensed and are currently operating legally per the federal guideline. I don't know that they've crossed their is and dotted their is and they've discussed with -- with the representatives here. I know the sir Craig, right there, he -- he just discussed that the two or three that he was able to find, but I don't know that all nine have -- have been before you guys. So we're trying to do our due diligence and ensure that we're -- we're crossing our is and dotting our i's, and that we've addressed all those problems. Now in regards to businesses. Some of the businesses we found that were similarly operating in a business capacity, are -- you have individual franchisees, such as Scentsy. That's one -- one large -- they sell fragrances, and they're a home based business, and we were able to find three of those that exist in the city of Livonia. Again, don't that they come in front of Livonia Zoning Board, but they -- they do exist in the city of Livonia. Additionally, I think Avon also has a couple in the city of Livonia, and there was one other as well. But those are the businesses we were able to locate that were operating out of a residential home in the city of Livonia. You know -- we kind of talked about kind of EBay sales and some of the other ecommerce stuff that -- you know -- pick up -- pick up items from that people purchased online. But that's really the long and short of the meeting we had last time, for the individuals that weren't here. I'd love to answer any questions. If anybody has any additional questions about the process -- how -- how ATF or Federal Firearms Licensees go about the background check process. If you guys have any questions, maybe we can answer those as well. Henzi: Yeah, maybe this will be a good time. If you can explain the transfer process, like we talked last time. Jastren: Yeah. So the way it works, if you're a Federal Firearms Licensee, and again, you are rigorously examined by the Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms department or a federal branch of -- you know -- the tobacco and firearms. Now, they do a background check on us, and they examine our residence. Make sure it's safe. They make sure that we have a safe location to store firearms. And every time a firearm is purchased -- so say if Chris came to me and he said hey I want to purchase a firearm from you, and don't know Chris from -- from -- from Adam, or he calls me and say hey I want to purchase this firearm from you. What we would do is that we would order firearm. If that firearm came to our location -- if he requested a transfer, right -- he may have requested that that firearm go to a different Federal Firearm Licensee -- we don't touch it. In that instance, we wouldn't be here tonight. But how that occurs is it comes into our residence or our place of business and we log that into a bound book. And that bound book identifies the serial number, the make of the firearm, and then it's put in a safe. So we have a safe in the -- in the residence. That will be stored in the safe. And then that individual calls to City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 73 September 27, 2016 make an appointment to come pick up the firearm. Now, when that individual comes to pick up the firearm, there's a form 4473 that they complete and they fill that out, name, address, social security number's optional, and then we call the Federal Bureau of Investigation. They run a background check on that individual, and they say hey that guy's clear -- that guy's not clear -- you know -- hold the firearm. Do not give them the firearm. They -- they complete that background check on their end, and then we're allowed to release the firearm with their signature and proof of identification. Henzi: And then how often would be audited by the ATF? Jastren: The ATF typically -- they don't -- they don't have a regular scheme of audits. They don't audit you on a yearly basis, right. They -- they kind of select people to audit at random. The FFL's I know that probably get audited every three to five years, but it really depends on the volume that you're doing, the area that you're -- you're in. So it -- it's really subjective, and I don't want to give you an inaccurate number. Henzi: That's fair. Do -- do the transfers have to take place in your home? Jastren: Yes. They must take place at the -- the licensed place of business. You cannot go down the street and do a transfer. It must take place in the business or the --the place where the Federal Firearms Licensee is located. Henzi: Okay. So then, Mr. Coppola had raised and interesting -- a good question. Something that is carried over from last time about what about other businesses like this. And you talked about the -- the print out from the ATF website or whatever -- about these other businesses. Can you describe exactly what research you've done about other businesses that have FFL's in Livonia. Jastren: So the other businesses that have FFL's in Livonia, you can locate them through these e-commerce websites, and that's not the way to do it. We went directly to the Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms department who license these guys. These are -- these are the people from the federal government that come out and approve this license -- this FFL. So the print out you have in front of you is -- is a spreadsheet of what those licensees are and where they're located in the city of Livonia. Now, we went through and looked at each one of those licensees and they all offer the same services we intend to offer. They all offer transfer. They all offer the sale of firearms. Some of them have different disciplines where they might be a Class 3, which means they deal in special firearms, but they all offer the service that we're here to talk about tonight. Henzi: Did you ask the Inspection Department to look at any files to find out if any of these residents requested a variance? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 73 September 27, 2016 Jastren: I believe you did. Gable: When I spoke with Mr. Hanosh, he -- they didn't know -- I -- you guys mentioned one that was you had record of, but -- Hanosh: There might be one or two, easily, where they were signed off by an employee that's not there anymore. Under the direction of our Mr. Bishop -- Alex Bishop, our director, he wanted all and any future and forward cases to go in front the Zoning Board, like we are tonight. Henzi: Okay. Gable: When we started this process and I approached the city to begin with because the was the proper place to start. I spoke with Randy -- I'm not sure of Randy's last name. he basically informed me at that time that there was no issue with it. That myself or the ATF agent could bring in whatever sheet needed to be signed, and -- and that would be fine. So we went through the entire ATF waiting period, which was several months, and they came out to do our interview and said, hey I talked to the City of Livonia and all of a sudden they do have an issue with it. So I went back down and that's when i spoke with Craig, and I don't know if he spoke with his boss, I guess or whatever, and they decided it -- there needed to be a variance. Henzi: Okay. Thanks. Any questions for the Petitioners? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: What type of license are you applying for? Jastren: So we're applying for an 01 FFL. That's just your generic FFL that allows you to deal in firearms and transfers. Not a manufacturer. Not a dealer in destructive devices, anything like that. It's just a generic -- you're regular run of FFL. Baringhaus: I had a question for Mr. Fisher. Right now they're applying for 01 license, if they were to upgrade that license, like an 06 -- 07 -- 09 -- any type of grade from an 01, would they have to apply for another variance? Fisher: I guess you could -- this Board could restrict them. I don't know how we would know, though, if they went from 01 to 010, as far as that goes. I guess if they started selling tanks, maybe we then we might notice. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 73 September 27, 2016 Gable: I do have a list of what all licenses is each FFL -- residential one has. If you guys want the list, I have the copies of it. There are type 6's -- 6 type 7's -- one type 8 -- one type 1 N6 -- one type 7 and 8 -- and one is a type 1 and 2 -- 12 are type 1's only. Baringhaus: We already talked about this before. What type of background checks do you do on a customer prior to ordering a gun for them? Jastren: So there's no required background check by the ATF or FBI to do a background check prior to ordering a firearm. It's prior to releasing that firearm to the individual. Baringhaus: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Schepis: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: Sir, I think you said that when you are applying with ATF, you have to give them a location or an address that you're .._ you're based out of? Jastren: That's correct, sir. Schepis: And that is the only place that these transfers can happen? Jastren: Yes, sir. Schepis: Does the location you give them have to be your house? Jastren: It does not. Schepis: Okay. So you could have a -- I don't know what other type of space, but an office, or -- or a shop, or something like that that you could register as -- as your place of business? Jastren: That's correct. And within your place of business, you also have to specify where you'll be conducting that business. So especially with a residential type FFL, you have to have a specific dedicated office, or dedicated area where you're going to be storing those firearms -- where you'll be conducting those transactions. Schepis: So there isn't a procedure where you could have two places that you -- you operated from, one where you store them and one where you -- Jastren: There is a procedure where you can have a separate location where store firearms or you store inventory, and then in our location where you -- a satellite location City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 73 September 27, 2016 where you conducted the actual transfer. I'm not too familiar with that process. I do know it exists because one of the gentlemen that I know that has his FFL does do that. I'm familiar with the process. I don't intend to pursue that. Schepis: Okay. Thank you. Jastren: Yes, sir. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Are you familiar with the term "kitchen counter FFL"? Jastren: I am, sir. Baringhaus: And what is that? Jastren: So "kitchen table FFL" was a term that coined really in the 1980's. And that was when a lot of FFL's came about and they started dealing firearms off their kitchen table. That's -- that's really what it's called because you're dealing out of your residence. You're conducting the business out of your residence. There's a considerable amount of "kitchen table FFL's throughout the United States. In the late 90's to the early 2000's, the FFL -- the ATF, rather, kind of curbed people from doing that. I'm not sure why. Mr. Pastor may know a little bit more about it. I think he's got some experience there. But really they've -- they've come back. So a lot of people are pursuing a kitchen table set style home base FFL. It is very common nowadays. Baringhaus: Are you considered a "kitchen counter -- or kitchen table FFL"? Jastren: That would be correct, yes. Baringhaus: Okay. Gable: My research -- my research does show that a lot of people get their FFL just to build their own personal gun collection, and that's what the ATF tries to avoid. So that's why part of the interview process -- Baringhaus: But the ATF has been making an effort to reduce the number of these licenses or reduce the number of renewal of these licenses. Is that correct? Jastren: That was in the late 90's to the early 2000's. They very much encourage them now. The ATF agents that came out to our home and did our interview, and then told us we had to speak with the Zoning Boards, he -- that's all he does -- "kitchen table FFL's". City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 73 September 27, 2016 So he travels around the Detroit Metro area and approve -- and goes through the interview and licensing process for just "kitchen table FFL's"'. Baringhaus: Is it true that distributors are taking a closer look at "kitchen table FFL's" and curtailing their business activities with them to the volume of business or low volumes of business that they provide? Jastren: Your -- your point there -- your point there is very valid in regards to the volume of business. So really from what I've seen, wholesalers and distributors aren't so much taking a net -- putting a negative light on the "kitchen table FFL". They're just looking at it from a business sense, and saying hey, if you're selling a volume of five firearms a year from us, it's not -- it doesn't make good business sense for us to have this open relationship with you, have to vet your FFL -- all overhead costs that associate with -- with vetting us as an FFL and a partner to them. So your point's very valid there with the -- the level of volume. Baringhaus: Okay. Thank you. Jastren: Yes, sir. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: Mr. Chair, just a quick question for Mr. Fisher, just on a clarification. The issue -- the petition for the for the variance is -- is not specifically -- this is a question and I'm phrasing it as a statement it should be. So I wouldn't do very good on Jeopardy. The Petitioner is -- is asking for a variance to Section 4.02 (g), 3, g, permitted usage, which isn't specific to the sale of firearms, but is more of a retail or distribution or -- or -- or wholesale type of operation at the residential. So is -- is -- l guess my question would be, is there an issue in regards to the type of business on the specific basis, firearms, or is the issue -- or the Petitioner asking for a variance to be able to conduct a business, which includes warehouse and distribution, sales or rentals of -- of a -- a product they haven't done -- actually produced themselves? Fisher: Well that's really it. I mean -- like we discussed last time, if you make candles in your house, you can sell those. But if you -- you -- a residence is not supposed to be a store. It's not supposed to be something -- your house is not supposed to be a store. That's got to be it. Coppola: Mr. Chair Henzi: Go ahead. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 73 September 27, 2016 Coppola: Some of the limitations we in -- in being able to approve variances is -- is -- is the Petitioner has to show a hardship beyond convenience, and -- and the willingness to want to make a greater profit. What -- what is your hardship beyond an inconvenience and -- and -- and wanting to make a profit? Jastren: So my hardship associated with this business is the fact that I want to be a contributing member to society as I come out of the workforce and can no longer work a normal nine to five job due to my injuries. Right now, before you, I seem like a very, probably, well-spoken normal individual. It took me a long time to learn how to talk again. Took me a long time to learn how to walk again. And my injuries will debilitate as I get older. I'm looking to develop this business with my step -father so that I have something to -- to do as I get older and -- and can -- and cannot work a normal nine to five job. So that's -- that's really the hardship here, is I don't have the opportunity to -- to conduct the business anywhere else, and it's due to the -- to the injuries really. Henzi: Any other questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr, Pastor. Pastor: I hate to ask this, but what are your injuries? Jastren: l sustained a traumatic brain injury, and I also herniated three disks in my neck. So after I sustained a traumatic brain injury, I spent approximately four and a half months at the Intrepid Spirit Center at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina. And traumatic brain injuries -- I don't know who's -- who knows really what that is. TBI is the term that people use, but really what it is -- if you ever seen the movie Concussion with Will Smith, that's the best way I can describe it. That's the best way I can -- I can describe it. So as you get older, those injuries debilitate you. I suffer from extreme migraines to the point where there's days I cannot go to work -- prescribed oxygen. I use a needle to inject myself with -- with medication to keep myself from having headaches. So that -- that gives you a little bit of a glimerence (sic) of the -- -- the experience I've had with these injuries. Pastor: Okay. I've got another question. Are you planning on being a Class 3 dealer? Jastren: Not at this time. Maybe something we will look into in the future, though. So it's really going to depend on the business model, and I hate to -- hate to give you conjecture and not give you a solid answer. It's kind of like we talked about in the last meeting. The -- the fact of -- how many transfer can you say that we're going to do, right. No business opens and say our plan is to do this. Our plan right now is to establish that Class 1 FFL or that Type 1 FFL, and see if it's a viable business option for us. As we grow, then there City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 73 September 27, 2016 may come an opportunity for us. So I'm not going to say that's not a possibility, but right now that's not our direct plan. Pastor: Thank you. Jastren: Yes, sir. Henzi: Any other questions? Baringhaus Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Where do you reside? Jastren: I currently reside in South Lyon. Baringhaus: Did you consider opening your business in South Lyon? Jastren: I did not because I work in Livonia. I grew up in Livonia. I intend to move back to Livonia. And my step -father is really the -- the operations portion of this business, and he is the one who intends to really operate the business day to day. I'm more of the advisor at this point, and -- and helping get -- get along the way because he has more available time than I am. And as the business grows, we'll continue to build together, and I'll become more -- more involved in the operations stand point of the business. Baringhaus: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Anything else. Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this request? If so, come on up to the table. Good evening. Ciendenin: Hi. Will Clendenin, I'm a Livonia resident, 31120 Westfield, and I'm not opposed to his business plan. Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. Gable: Thank you. Henzi: Anybody else? Bledsoe: Chris Bledsoe. I live at 35860 West Chicago, and we support this business. Henzi: Thank you. Dragoo: I'm Linda Dragoo. I live at 35845 Richland. I oppose this request. I believe it's it can affect the value of our homes, and our homes are finally getting back up in value, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 73 September 27, 2016 and for the prices we had. 1 believe it could possibly affect our home owner's insurance in the area having this. I don't think -- I personally feel that running this business out of a home is personal gain -- financially for him because there's no overhead. And I know there's a lot of locations within a mile. You have Levan -- you have Plymouth -- you have Wayne within a mile of the house where he could seek out an office to rent for a couple hundred bucks a month. Since this young gentleman is not going to be the primary business owner, he will be a partner, but Christopher's going to be the primary gentleman running the business, I feel as though he would be capable to go to a location to be able to run -- sell firearms out of a business, not out of a residential area. The gentleman's house -- Mr. Gable's house -- is located at the end of West Chicago Road. There's only three streets, West Chicago, Richland, 1 think Orangelawn, that are the access to his house. They're within 600 feet of the school, which is Garfield, which we just had situation occur through there this weekend. I would like to see Livonia stay as a strong family committed community, and I don't think that this is the type of business that should be sold --- that should be conducted out of a home. Tupperware -- people go to other people's houses to sell Tupperware. They have Tupperware parties at other people's house. It's not being sold out of a home. You don't have to have it locked in a safe. Same with Avon or Thirty -One, or Mary Kay. I feel that -- like I said this is fiscal benefit for you to have it out of a house, but 1 think as a neighbor -- as a neighbor of yours, I would not feel comfortable having that run out of a house. 1 think you can go elsewhere. But I think there's probably a lot of people that you might be able to know with Roush and stuff that might be able to just sell you something for -- or rent a space like a hundred -- two hundred bucks a month. For the help us as a community to stay together as a family -- family community. I think that's very important. Gable: Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Miss, so you're not opposed to having businesses run out of houses. You're just this business being run out of a house? Dragoo: 1 don't like this type of business being ran out of a home. If you're going to be producing and selling marijuana out of your house, I'd probably have a problem with that too. If you're selling Mary Kay or Avon, I don't feel that there's a risk involved with people picking up stuff from your house. And usually that's not the case. You usually take it to whoever had the party, or it gets mailed to that person's house, and they distribute it. So City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 73 September 27, 2016 I -- it's not the same relationship as what he is trying to conduct out of there. He's having physical guns, and that license also includes semi -automatics. And I don't think -- I think we all have a responsibility to try and have gun control, and I don't think that's something that should be ran out of house. Because if you lift this ordinance for just him, you're lifting it for the entire community of Livonia, and I don't think that is right. Pastor: So you're -- Dragoo: Go someplace else. A hundred fifty -- two hundred dollars a month -- rent -- rent an office -- Regis locations throughout -- throughout the world will rent you physical locations, and you can go there for like two -- three hundred a month. Do that, but keep out of our neighborhoods. That's all I'm asking. Pastor: But you're okay with any other business being run there? Dragoo: Depends on the business. If you're living next to me and you're selling marijuana, I'm not going to be up for that. I don't care if you've got a license or not. Get a store front -- like Hydroponics -- or whatever -- on Wayne and sell it. That's all I'm asking. Pastor: So you're against gun -- you're against guns in -- in general then? Dragoo: Absolutely not. I have some of my own. I am all for the 2nd Amendment. I've been shooting a rifle as a kid since I was eight years old. I have my marksman, my pro - marksman, marksmen first class -- second class, I've done all that. I do not feel that that is a type of business that shouldn't be conducted in a home -- in a residential community. If you're in South Lyon, and you live on a farm and you're on 15 acres, then go ahead. But not when your houses are 30 feet apart from one another. And you have to drive up and down my street, and I'm worried about kids in the park -- people at the school. And mentioned to the Board, we had three cousins that went to Sandy Hook, and it's very personal that we try and control gun control. Because I don't want to see something like this happen where some punk kids that hear about his house and decide to break in because his house backs up to Hines. He might get -- he might be getting a surveillance or alarm system, but if I don't it, you're putting my house under jeopardy too. And I just don't think that's fair. I didn't move to this community for that -- really and truly. I -- I have family that's lived in Livonia their whole lives -- for 40 -- 50 years, and I like the community. I lived in Bloomfield. I moved here. I love this community, and I don't want to see what's changing. I have neighbors -- friends and I want to keep that. I don't want businesses ran out of everybody's houses. Pastor: Thank you. Dragoo: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Anybody else want to speak for or against the project. Cohan: Hi my name is Linda Cohan. I live at 35851 West Chicago. I live a couple doors down. They're a wonderful family, but -- and I want you to have a job, but I'm nervous. I'm a teacher. And just to have the school there -- I'm just -- yeah I know. We've got the school kids and the park, and I just look at the past -- I mean -- is there even like money we can help with or some kind of loan to help him afford some type of a store or something. 1 rent so I am fine, but I know property value -- if I see a family starting a family, I would know, and to purchase a home if I knew right down the street someone would -- had guns. And I know these people are going to be extremely safe and responsible. They're wonderful people. It's not about them. It's about the crazy. And you can't always see crazy. You don't always see it. You don't always know it. I mean -- some of the people. And I'm not against guns either. That's not the issue. It's just the setting. We affording this opportunity that could be disastrous. And you're right, maybe only one percent of it could be disastrous, but boy I wouldn't that on my shoulders. Kids getting gunned down. Someone getting hurt. Heaven forbid you guys getting hurt in your own home. I want you to have a job. You guys are awesome. But I prefer to have it in a business setting. Jastren: Thank you. Gable: Thanks, Linda. Henzi: Anybody else? Rygiel: My name is Greg Rygiel. I live at 14482 Yale. I've known Christopher for about 30 years. I've worked alongside of him -- for 30 years at Vslassis, and I do not know anybody that's more caring and conscientious than him. And I see no problem with this business. Henzi: Thank you. Jastren: Thank you. Gable: Thanks, Greg. Poirier: I'm Michael Poirier, 36134 Joy Road. I'm not opposed to this variance at all. Jastren: Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. Ma'am, did you want to say something. Easton: Yeah, I was just -- Pat Easton. I turned in my little sheet, but -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Can you say your address, please? Easton. Pardon me? Henzi: Can you say your address? Easton: 35880 West Chicago. And I've known the family for 30-40 years before he was born. And I have great -- I just know that whatever they're doing, it will be with integrity. And I have great trust in them. So -- you know -- that's how I feel. I just Know they are very trust worthy. Henzi: Anybody else? Dragoo: Can 1 just say something? Henzi: Very briefly. We've got five other cases. Dragoo: Yes, I will. Henzi: I mean -- 30 seconds. Dragoo: Okay. I just want to say, it's not that I don't trust these guys. It's the people -- their customers. They don't know who they are. It's an e-commerce. You have no idea. They can be anywhere from around the world -- United States -- and 1 don't think I would want to invite that into my neighborhood. Henzi: Anybody else? Last call. Okay. Can you read the letters? Baringhaus: Sure. First letter is from Frank Baron, 35824 West Chicago, Livonia. Letter of approval, (letter read). Letter of approval, Patricia Easton, 38850 West Chicago, (letter read). Letter of object, Carol Aspery, 35855 Richland, (letter read). Letter of objection, Jan Malcomson, 35915 West Chicago, (letter read). Letter of objection, Susan Amaimo, 35844 Richland Street, (letter read). Letter from William J. Schager, 35832 West Chicago, (letter read). Letter of objection, David Spender, 35851 West Chicago, (letter read). Letter from John Dixon, 35867 West Chicago, (letter read). That's it. Henzi: Gentlemen, you have the opportunity to make a closing statement. I'll ask, maybe, will you incorporate your comments about why didn't you just rent a facility, as was it suggested by one of the speakers, or renting a commercial facility. Jastren: I'll make it brief. I know we have five other cases. 1'd like to address a couple points. First is the facility issue. One of our major concerns running a facility is security. Now in Livonia, there have been several break ins in gun stores that have not -- that have been run part-time. People are not available. People are not around. The likely hood of City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 73 September 27, 2016 -- of -- of a break in or something like occurring is much higher in that offsite facility. Additionally, it's -- it's really not the -- the monetary issue that someone brought up here. And that's not our -- our purposes of financial gain. It's so that we have the convenience to run this business and offer a service to our customers, and to grow this business without -- you know -- a great deal of operational -- operational -- I can't think of the word I'm looking for -- effort, right. So that's -- a lot less operational effort that goes into taking place when you're -- when you're running it as "kitchen table based FFL". Now I will add, there is already one FFL in the neighborhood -- in this neighborhood. We've identified that on the list. l think it's -- it's 35130 Richland Street. So there is already a -- an FFL operating within the neighborhood offering the same services that we are -- the same distance from a school. Now I think that -- you know -- the residents around us, their concerns are somewhat valid, right. You know -- there's a school. There's a reason to be concerned. But this business, vets people like no other business. There's a background check required through the Federal Bureau Investigations. Who buys Tupperware and has to go through an FBI background check, right. These people that are calling us to order a firearm -- we have their information before we ever see their face. So should we choose to do so, we can use a private service to -- to do a background check. And that's -- that's one of the benefits is you can screen those people and see what kind of people they are before they're coming to pick it up. You're not completing the federal background check before that individual's coming to pick up the firearm. You know -- we discussed that. But really the business model is -- is already operating within the city of Livonia. It's - it's been zoned appropriate, and there's already one of these businesses within the neighborhood. And I -- I understand that Mr. Chair, you brought up a point during the last meeting about saturation in the business - in this market, right. You said, hey there's already some many FFL's in the city of Livonia, right. That was one of the points you made. And I want to reiterate that largely of this business is an e- commerce based business. You know -W that means we'll be selling the majority online to consumers outside the city of Livonia. I'm -- the intention here is not for Chis to have revolving door on the front of his house and have people there 2417. It's to offer -- you know -- five people a week to pull into the driveway, park -- you know -- set an appointment and come pick up their firearm. Now -- you know -- in regards to -- to FedEx and UPS, the UPS truck already makes two trips on the street daily, the FedEx truck makes one. So those -- those vehicles are already operating within our street and within our neighborhood. I don't think that there would be any increase traffic from deliveries, especially due to the lack of transfer that we would be offering to our clientele. Does anybody have additional questions that I can answer? Henzi: I did -- 35130 Richland is east of Yale. Do you know how far east what it's crossroad would be? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 73 September 27, 2016 Gable: It's west of Wayne and east of Yale. It's -- it's in our neighborhood. Henzi: Okay. Jastren: So it's -- Gable: It's between Plymouth and West Chicago, and between Wayne and Yale. Henzi: It's between Wayne and Yale. Got it. Jastren: So it's just outside the boundary of the schools. I mean -- it's got to a hundred feet from the school. Gable: I don't know how far east of Wayne -- or east of Yale it is. Henzi: It looks a couple blocks. I can't really tell. That's why I ask. Okay. Anything else you want to say? Jastren: That's it, sir. Henzi: Thanks very much. I'll close the public portion of the case, and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Neville. Neville: Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is a very tough matter that we're being asked to decide because I can fully appreciate the concerns that your neighbors have in perspective to the sale of firearms in their neighborhoods, especially a residential neighborhood. I feel compelled because our obligation is essentially to -- to grant variances in a uniform -- we have to follow -- we have to be consistent in -- in what we do with respect to whether we grant your request for a variance or not. I feel that there's been sufficient evidence provided to us especially the that geographic location to where the Petitioners reside of FFL licensees of dealers being conducting businesses in residential settings. We also have the Minutes from a request for a variance -- although it was back in '96 -- a property on Arden Street. It's a very similar discussion was held, and in that case's Board granted that variance. So I think from a legal stand point, the uniform application of the -- of the law, I would feel compelled to -- to grant the request for the variance. Henzi: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: Well first of all, I want to thank you for your service. That's an incredible thing. And I say this somewhat regretfully. I don't think that I can support this. When I look at it -- when I listen to you -- you know -- I understand what you're trying to do, but I can't get past the fact that I think that -- you know -- the purpose of this is -- is financial gain, which isn't bad, but it's something that we are not permitted to look at. You know -- I also City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 73 September 27, 2016 think that -- that the ordinance permits all -- or prohibits all retail out of -- out of homes. And -- you know -- there's an exception to that that we have for daycare centers. Where we consider other factors, but that's something that's been specifically -- that's authority that's specifically been given to us by the City Council to consider -- you know -- the unique circumstances and the need for that in a neighborhood. And we don't have a similar authorization here. I know that if we were looking at this like a daycare, the fact that there is another similar facility in the neighborhood would be something that we would consider as -- as not in favor of allowing another similar business in that same area. And finally, I'm a little bit -- I don't know what the word is -- not uncomfortable, but -- but the way that this come before us -- you know -- some -- some FFL's have -- have been granted variances it sounds like. Some haven't. I don't know what -- what the procedure here is, and that makes me a little bit uncomfortable. And - and the other thing I would add is that I'm a little bit bolstered by the fact that I think that this does not mean that you cannot operate your business. I think that there are ways to make this work. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I also thank you for your service, and I feel terrible that you had the injuries that you've had. I can support this. I supported it last time around. We have several FFL's in home businesses in our community. Evidently, these didn't even know there's another one in their own neighborhood, or else they would have been screaming about. I see you do have more support than you did last time. Last time you had almost no support. This time you got fifty percent of the people here in support. I also know, due to the fact, I have FFL in one of my buildings, that the background checks are quite extensive and it's quite often people get denied, or get delayed. They do -- these background checks are very, very carefully done by the ATF. So I will be in support. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: 1, too, would like to thank you for your service, and also thank you for the way you articulated your case and answered each question clearly, transparently, and to best of your ability. But I found this case very education from my point of view. I didn't realize that there was this many FFL's in the city, and I didn't realize that there were nine currently being operated by homes in Livonia, as well. I -- listening to the audience tonight and the residents of the neighborhood, I agree with them. I don't think that's a business that a lot of people would be comfortable with having in their neighborhood. In terms of hardship, I -- I sympathize with your physical conditions and your need -- and your future need to work from your home, but there are other alternatives in that area as well. Based on that, I'm not in support of the variance. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 73 September 27, 2016 Coppola: First of all, again, thank you for your service and the sacrifice that you made. And l wanted to correct the record, that I am in full support of the 2nd Amendment, and have no issues with this type of business. It's a very heavily regulated. It's extremely safe. It's extremely secure. So from that perspective, I don't have any issues. Where I'm struggling with this, and where I'm falling short of -- of support, is it's a retail business. And -- and -- and the ordinance is very clear in regards to retail businesses. They're not permitted in -- in residential areas. When asked about hardships -- and I do -- I do understand your condition, and I understand that over time that that will deteriorate. I get that. You're driving from South Lyon right now. And whether you drive to that house or you drive to a retail office building, I'm not sure I -- I see the difference at this point in time. That could over time and I get that, and I understand that. At that point maybe, that it becomes a hardship, then we can grab onto it a little heavier and be able to provide some type of variance. In regards to these other FF'L's, I don't believe any evidence had been provided to us that they are actually operating with proper -- with proper permitting, and - - and with proper approvals. The only that -- that we saw was from 1996. That was a one-year approval, and they never came back to be -- to be approved. So from that perspective -- as far as I'm concerned they're operating illegally, and hasn't been proved to me otherwise. So unfortunately, I'm not in support. I think you have an opportunity to get with a business. I think the e-commerce, you need to find a small office somewhere where you can conduct your business and -- and -- and keep your inventory. I just -- at this point -- any retail business -- and this has nothing to do with -- with the type of business. I'm opposed to it in a residential area. Henzi: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: Thank you for your service as well. I know it's redundant, but truly. And -- and you do have a unique hardship. I think your hardship would be different than just some guy who wants to open up a business and run it out of his house. That being said, unfortunately, 1 think that's the problem. It's not the type of business. It's not the type of business, it's that it is a business. And that you can operate this perfectly, legally elsewhere in the city. And 1 think the overwhelming difference -- and I made notes a positive and negative, and I'm really struggling with this one. But in the end I think that the neighbor's concerns are valid. And certainly people that know you, like you. I like you and trust, and say you guys are going to be good, but it's that just lingering doubt, and it is a neighborhood, and all that kind of stuff. As far remote as possible that something could happen. It just takes it to that negative for me. So unfortunately, I am also opposed. Henzi: First, you're one of the most persuasive petitioners I've ever seen, and I've been the Board since 2003. Both -- both of you did a great job. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 73 September 27, 2016 Jastren: Thank you, sir. Henzi: I'm going to have to vote no for a legal reason. And it's unfair to you because I think you made a great presentation on -- I wish that I could vote yes. You can't go to a store and buy marijuana. You can go to about 25 stores in Livonia and buy a gun. This is completely different. There's a resident -- there's a corporation using a residence less than a mile from this residence, selling firearms in an unknown amount, and no one even knew about it. There are eight other folks in the city of Livonia who are doing the same thing. I'm not worried about people who are going to come to you to buy a gun, any more than I'm worried about somebody who goes into a Dick's. In fact, I'd rather you sold all the guns in Livonia, rather than folks go to Dick's and Dunham's, hands down. However, treated this from the first meeting to today as really it's just -- it's the type of business, and it didn't matter to me whether you were selling widgets or Tupperware or what have you. The problem is the -- in order to get use variance, which is what you want, you have to show you can't use house for anything else. And for that reason, I'm going to have to vote no. I think you've made a great presentation. I wish you all the luck, but that -- but that's my -- my reason. And if I would have been voting in 1996, 1 would have said the same thing to that officer who requested -- I do think that after we make a denial, we should make a motion directing the Inspection Department to visit every one of these houses, and issue a violation. Because that's ridiculous. These guys go ahead and do it the right way and get turned away by us, while other people go to the -- you know -- came through and are doing it through the back door. That's ridiculous. So floor's open for motion. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Upon Motion Baringhaus and supported by Coppola, it was: RESLOVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-07-53 Tabled on July 20,2016): An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Christopher Gable, 35875 West Chicago, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to perform firearm sales and distribution from a personal residence which is not allowed. The property is located on the south side of West Chicago (35875), between Arthur and west end (dead end), Lot. No. 125-02-0587-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 4.02 (g), 3, g, "Permitted Uses," be denied for the following reasons and findings of fact: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 73 September 27, 2016 1. The Petitioner has not demonstrated to the Board that a practical difficulty exists. 2. That a retail business operated in a residential area is clearly prohibited. Currently, there is one FFL operating in that neighborhood today. 3. The denial of this appeal is in the best interests of the City of Livonia. AYES: Coppola, Klisz, Schepis, Henzi, Baringhaus NAYS: Neville, Pastor ABSENT: Henzi: Thank you very much. Gable: Thanks. Jastren: Thank you. APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-09-66: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by John Kaounas, Johnny's Ribs and Pizza, 8001 Ronda Drive, Canton, MI 48187, seeking to install an electronic reader board into an existing masonry ground sign base, resulting in the reader board being excess in area. There are three (3) existing wall signs on the building totaling 131 square feet. Electronic signs are only allowed where all signs on site are conforming. Electronic Reader Board Area: Allowed: 12 sq. ft. Proposed: 15 sq. ft. Excess: 3 sq. ft. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 73 September 27, 2016 The property is located on the west side of Victor Parkway (19333), between Seven Mile and Pembroke, Lot. No. 024-01-0001-002, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H(o),1,5, "Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts." Henzi: Mr. Hanosh, anything to add to this case? Hanosh: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the inspection Department? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Mr. Hanosh, I don't know if you know this or not, but it says their three existing wall signs, 131 square feet, do we know what he's actually allowed? Fisher: He has a variance for those -- previous. Pastor: l understand that, but what is he allowed? Hanosh: According -- without going through a variance process, it would be one sign on the building. Pastor: How many square feet? Hanosh: One square foot per one linear foot of frontage. Coppola: The prior Minutes said it was a hundred square feet that would have been allowed. Based on the prior -- prior meetings and such. Pastor: Okay. Thank you. Coppola: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: Just have a question for Mr. Fisher. What is a control zone, and -- and what level of jurisdiction does this Board have in regards to control zone that they still -- the measurements is under the auspice of -- of the Council? Fisher: Planning Commission and City Council have a closer sort of supervision of control zones. So that under the ordinance anytime you have new signage -- basically -- certainly expanded signage -- that now goes through Planning Commission and Council. And it City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 73 September 27, 2016 doesn't really affect the Board's jurisdiction because the Board basically always has jurisdiction if there is in an ordinance excess or if there's a question that the Council refers to the Board. Coppola: So in the case of this particular location where this Board approved a variance for three existing sings, prohibited a ground sign. That ground sign was then approved by Council, based on what I read historically. Pastor: That can't happen. Fisher: Ordinarily, you're right that the -- if we had a Board prohibiting a ground sign or basically anything that a Board prohibited -- somebody coming to the Board later to get that thing that had been prohibited would be told no, that's -- you can't do that. But because that this has been through the Planning Commission and Council process, as I say, this Board's jurisdiction includes matters that are referred to it by City Council. Coppola: So -- but the City Council -- just so I understand -- the City Council overriding - - in a sense -- overriding the Board and allowing the ground sign. Fisher: Well not overriding the Board because you can still say no. Coppola: Well the ground sign exists. It was approved by City Council. It was not --- I didn't at least -- wasn't provided of any record here that that ground sign was approved, or prohibited. Prohibition of a ground sign as waived by this Board. Fisher: Yeah, if you're saying how did this ground sign get to be there, I don't know the answer to that right now. Pastor: That's basically what he's asking. Coppola: Well not at least based on -- on the information that was included in this package, that City Council approved it based on it being a control zone. Just wanted to make sure 1 understood. Fisher: Are you talking about in 2016, or are you talking another -- Coppola: No, it was earlier. It was much earlier. Fisher: Okay. Coppola: l have to go back and find it. Neville: '95 -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 73 September 27, 2016 Coppola: 2012 -- I don't know. I'd have to go back and look through the stuff. I didn't write down specific notes. What caught my attention was the fact that it was -- it was 2012 -- September 12, 2012, Council adopted. Fisher: Council may have thought that they were reversing their own decision from 1995 because they said, in 1995 there would be no ground sign permitted on the subject site. don't think that -- I don't why in 2012 that didn't come to this Board, assuming that it didn't. We don't have -- if there is paperwork to document that, it's not in this packet. I'm sorry. Henzi: Anything else? Okay. Will the Petitioner please come to the table? Good evening. Kaounas: Good evening. Zaks: Good evening. Henzi: Can you tell us your names and address? Zaks: Michael Zaks, 13300 Foley, Detroit, Michigan. I'm the general manager of 4 Tech Signs. We're the ones proposing the LED and the ground sign. This is the owner of the business and the property, as well. Kaounas: John Kaounas, 20660 Woodcreek Boulevard, in Northville, Michigan, 48187. Henzi: Okay, go ahead and tell us about the sign. Kaounas: You want to talk? Zaks: Yeah. First of all, Mr. Coppola, you are correct. We've done some due diligence, and I have the final approved plans from the Council Resolution 385-12 from 9-12-12. I'd be happy to pass that along for you. It was when it was Big Daddy's, and here's a rendering of what that sign looks like. If someone wants to take a look at it. In any case, what we're proposing is using the existing brick structure, and inserting a LED programmable message center. The sign would be allowed. However, the -- the ordinance allows 50 percent of the entire area of that ground sign. So at Council's approval and the other Board's approval, their condition was that we might have to actually increase the top of the sign to get to the proper ratio. However, in keeping the smaller in configuration, we kept that top section, which indicates the name of the business smaller, and the LED is 15 square feet under that. So it's 24 square feet. We would actually be allowed 30 square feet for that sign as the ordinance. We think that what the request doesn't violate the spirit of the ordinance. It's a difficult location. As everyone here knows, there's been multiple businesses there. They've all failed. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 73 September 27, 2016 Unfortunately, there's no good way to promote that business. It's confined on the parkway. Not a great deal of traffic there. Johnny has put a great deal of effort and dollars into renovating the property and the business. Without the ability to display that there is a change in the business -- a change in the menu. We're concerned of the viability of the business. I think Johnny can address additionally about what his concerns are. Kaounas; We -- this building was actually abandoned. And I came here and we decided to make it a restaurant because it was the Lonestar Steakhouse. I bought the building, renovated it, and we decided to make it a New Big Daddy's. It's a Greek type restaurant. The steakhouse did not make it. Big Daddy's did not make it, and we trying now -- then sold to a Little Daddy's, which is another franchise, they fell through it too. So I end up with -- back with a business. What happened there is, we don't have the traffic. We don't have no exposure at all from Seven Mile. There's a monument sign at Seven Mile, but we don't -- they don't have any room for us. So nobody knows we have a restaurant over there. The reason we like to have this kind of sign is hundreds of thousands of people work in there, and we'd like to advertise our menu. So perhaps the people can stop and have dinner, or remember there is a restaurant there, not at this Dave & Busters. Because a lot of people get us confused. They just drive through the driveway and they go into Dave & Busters, and they packed. They even use our parking lot. If we don't do something like this --we trying everything. We're trying advertisement. We tried coupons. We tried many things. l opened on July the 6th. I've been trying to get this sign since January. Right now, the entity is losing $1400.00 a day. I don't know how long I'm going to last. And the reason why it's still open, is because I have another business, and I'm supporting this business. And hopefully, we can keep the doors open. Because it's -- we have the last straw here. We need to do something. There's no way I can bring people in. I mean -- I am putting it everywhere. I'm putting it on -- you know -- I'm spending money on advertisement -- on coupons. We've gone into the buildings. We trying to push it hard. It's a family restaurant. We're bringing good people in there. A lot of families. I have a lot of youngsters working there. I have a lot of mothers are working there -- part-time -- because that's what they need. So 1 really like to see this place make it for myself, for the people that are working for me, and for the city too. We creating jobs, and it's a shame to have a building like this, 6000 square feet -- to be boarded up because that's how I found it. It was boarded up. And Mr. Bishop, which we lost him not too long ago, he's the one who boarded it up because -- and when I came here and talked to the Board, they told me come on in. I invest three million dollars so far, and we cannot get dime out of it. Plus, you had some big corporations came in there. It cannot make it. We're trying. With your help, maybe we can make it happen. Otherwise, we're just going to have to hang. There's nothing else I can do, and I'm asking you for your support. And did the -- sent the letter to the Board. Explain to you how I end up with this. I'm trying City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 73 September 2T, 2016 to do the best. And also, we've been approved by the Council and the Planning. And also, the ground sign was approved by the Board back on the 12th, I believe -- the year 12. And that's why we put that sign there. The only thing we're saying is, allow us to put our menu there. So we can actually bring a little bit more business in so we can survive because you don't have the traffic there. It's very -- very -- very -- a little bit of a traffic. Plus, we have the expressway hurt us real bad when the construction. So -- you know - - we work around it. We're still alive. And like I say, with your help, maybe we can stay open and maintain the business open, keep the jobs to the people, and we can pay our bills, and become successful. That's what I'm asking you. Henzi: Thanks. Thank you. Any questions for the Petitioners? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Mr. Fisher, isn't it -- doesn't our ordinance restrict us from giving him a variance if he's not involved -- if his signs are not within conforming signs on the property? Fisher: Well, that's part of the reason he's here is because not all the signs are conforming. I mean -- yes, the -- you're not supposed to have the electronic sign unless your signs are all conforming as to area. That doesn't necessarily affect this Board's ability to grant a variance. There are lots of things you're not supposed to have that this Board grants variances for. Pastor: But we've also denied this in the past if they weren't conforming. Fisher: I guess I would say the Board has come out either way, depending on what the other circumstances of the case were. I know in some cases where people have electronic signs that don't have a hundred percent conformity of other signage. Pastor: How do you expect a sign -- you need exposure on Seven Mile -- you're talking about Seven Mile -- Kaounas: No --- Pastor: This sign does not do anything for you. Kaounas: No. I'm not expecting from Seven Mile. I'm expecting from the people that work in the area. Pastor: Well, they can see your building signs. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 73 September 27, 2016 Kaounas: The building sign -- it does not show my menu. I'm trying to advertise -- you can have a special fish, or pizza, or ribs -- a special sandwich. So people can come in so they don't drive in and go to Haggerty Road. You follow me? They can see what we sell in there. We're not Duck's, which is gambling. We're not Dave & Buster's, which is games. Okay. We are family. And we are trying to get the office people, and we selling lunches under ten dollars -- six something. I mean -- we trying to do the best to bring the people. We have quite a few people there. If we can advertise our menu, and they just stop, and get their lunches there, or supper, or some carryout's so we can increase our business a little bit. So that way we can stay in business. That's' what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to advertise what are we actually selling. That's the only thing I'm trying to do. And I'm hoping that's going to work. Pastor: Well -- Kaounas: It is very difficult -- Pastor: I -- I need -- I need a hardship that doesn't include financial. Because we cannot approve this if you're saying I need it so I can make more money. Kaounas: It's not about money. It's not about money, and let's not get confused. This is not more money. This is a place, which has been there for many years, and it's gone out of business. You had corporations. Okay. They went out of business. And when Livonia supposed to build a park -- supposed to be a high rise and everything, but due to the depression we got here -- the recession -- we changed. Because I've been in Livonia here as industrials -- a manufacturer. That's the only reason I'm here and can spend money. Otherwise, now-- they came in. They didn't make it. They left. We get the other business. I'm coming up -- and it was closed up for many years, at least what -- seven to ten years. Boarded up. So you have a choice of this. Either we board it up, or tried to open, or tear it down --- not to pay any taxes because I can't afford anymore. Like I say, do you want this place to open because -- we create jobs for the youngsters. We create jobs for the -- for the mothers. Okay. We pay tax. They pay tax. We want this city. We have a family type of business. We want this city to have this kind of business. We don't want to board it up. We're not Detroit. And that place -- when you have all this professionals -- I'm not make it. I'm industrials. I'm not in the restaurant business. If they cannot make it, you can see what I have to go through it. But I own the building. I bought the whole thing. I'm trying to make it. It's not like -- you know -- my finance and everything. It doesn't matter what business you have. If you lose everyday money, eventually you going to stop and say that's enough. There is -- nobody's buying this building for this type. You have -- you have a Dave & Buster's there. You know what we create with a Dave & Busters, right? We have a wonderful place with family oriented, and now we got kind of problems, but we're trying to deal with that. Not blaming anybody. It City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 73 September 27, 2016 just a -- made a bad decision, I guess. I'm trying to keep it together. It not like I'm asking how I'm going to make some money. I tell you what, I if make one dollar, I'll keep it open -- one dollar a year. I don't care about rent. I don't care for anything. One dollar a year if I make -- show you my financial statements. I'll keep this place open just to have the people working, and I can go have a cup of coffee. Because I don't run the place. 1 just the owner, and I'm soaking money every day. I'm more than glad to show you my financial statements. So and I'm begging you, seriously -- very seriously, if I cannot -- I'm trying to do anything. Something I can make it happen. Am I going to make it happen with this? I'm betting my bets on this that it's going to help me. If it doesn't, I have no other choice. You're going to see it boarded up. Zaks: Mr. Pastor, I guess I would say that his real intent to having the LED is because there are so many failed restaurants there, he's trying to capture any drive by traffic, and advertise what he is and what kind of restaurant it is. Because, obviously, people drive by quickly, they don't even know what it is. There's already been three failed restaurants there. The fact of having that LED and being able to program it with specials and the type of food he has and address that drive by traffic, perhaps he gets an opportunity to make it a successful location. Pastor: So why do we need to be bigger what we allow? Zaks: Well you allow 30 square feet, as we're proposing, and it's actually smaller than that. Pastor: Well, that's not how I read our notice. Our notice says allowed 12 square feet, proposed 15 square feet, excess of 3 square feet. Zaks: Right, 24 square feet is the overall size of the sign. By ordinance we would be allowed half of that. So we could easily increase it to 30 square feet and be allowed to the 15 square feet, which is half of 30. Pastor: I did not get that math whatsoever. Zaks: Okay. 30 square feet is what we're allowed for the ground sign, and we would be allowed 15 square feet for the LED. However, we chose a smaller size, which is only 24 square feet. We would theoretically be allowed 12 square feet, which is half -- Pastor: Craig, can you help me out on this. Hanosh: 30 square feet is the way the zoning would be for that commercial property. It's existing as 24. Zaks: That's correct. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 73 September 27, 2016 Hanosh: So he's not -- Neville: He could put a bigger sign if he wanted to. Hanosh: He could expand it -- Zaks: Yes. Fisher: Maybe the missing element in this is you can have -- your electronic sign can only be 50 percent of the overall area. Hanosh: Correct. With that in mind, that's where we come up with the 12 square feet because it's half of the size. He's asking for 15, which is an increase of more than 50 percent. So that's why it's written up the way it is. Zaks: We could easily remedy it and make the sign 30 square feet, and then we would be allowed the 15 square foot sign. Pastor: If you get the approval. Zaks: Correct. Pastor: And why do we need larger signs on the building? You're already -- you're already approximately 31 square feet overage on your building signs. Zaks: I suppose the difficulty and identifying that building and the fact that three failed restaurants -- some of them large corporate chains -- Pastor: Everything can't be three failed restaurants. You can't give me an excuse every single time -- the same excuse. Zaks: I -- I -- right. I think that's the main intent there is to show that everyone who is their failed, and there's a good reason for that. And we think that the proper promotion and identification and with the help of the LED explaining what that menu is, he has an opportunity to be successful. Pastor: Thank you. Schepis: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any other -- Mr. Schepis. Schepis: Have you installed this type of sign at this type of facility before? Zaks: Not in Livonia, but in the surrounding tri county areas, yes. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 73 September 27, 2016 Schepis: In general -- I mean -- I mean -- can you give us some sense. Is it successful? Does it -- Zaks: It's very successful, especially as I say in this situation where people drive by on Victor Parkway. They don't even know what that is anymore. They've driven by and it's been, again, three restaurants. They probably just blow by it and don't even pay much attention. The LED does grab your attention. So if you could put ribs, chicken special, fish special, and they say oh there's something different there. You know -- most people don't even know if it's open or not anymore. Schepis: So there's three signs on the building that are not effective? Zaks: Well, I think it helps, but the building's set back considerably from the road, and the road sign, hopefully, garners more attention to the drive by traffic than the building signs. Schepis: I mean -- have you considered -- have you considered rethinking your signs in general? Zaks: I suppose that in a worst case scenario, we would consider removing one of the elevations. Schepis: l mean -- I guess that I don't know if you need to remove stuff. I was just curious if you've thought about the -- Zaks: Sure. Kaounas: Can I add something to that? The way this building has been designed. It faces south. The driveway is behind the building, and which is on the north side. And when you drive in our driveway, you see in the Dave & Buster's building. You're right in it. You really have to pay attention to make a circle to find the entrance. You been there. It's very difficult. Now, why did they design it like this? Because it was a different planning. I have all the prints from day one because I've been Livonia before the expressway been built -- '96. They're supposed to be different. They're supposed to be Bob Evans -- supposed to be McDonald's -- supposed to be high rise. But when all of this fell, then they start changing here, changing there, and it -- and that building is one of the first ones, and really it's backwards. But in order to change the building around, you can't do it. You got to tear it down. Schepis: No, I'm not suggesting changing the building. Kaounas: No -- I'm just saying, what's the problem with this building. So in other words, the front end -- it's like a dead end. I -- I really -- I love to -- I don't know -- get a bus or City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 73 September 27, 2016 whatever -- bring you to the place and you will actually witness what we going through there. I mean -- this is really a tough, tough place to make it. Very difficult. The only that is left there. We're trying to be an operation, instead of boarded up. And it's right in front there, and I don't think it's going to look right. And I -- I feel bad -- you know -- if people are going to be going to find another job -- when they lose their job, and I am going to X amount of money. And I'm going to tell you the truth, I -- I -- I'm going to tell you. I invest this money -- Henzi: Wait -- hold on. I'm going to stop. Kaounas: Go ahead. Henzi: I'm going to stop you for the interest of time. You've made your point. I -- I -- I think you have a definite hardship. You've got a building that is orientated in an odd way in a combination retail office park that has changed exponentially since that building first started. We're spending, in my opinion, too much time on the fact that the business has failed and you want it to succeed. I think that's obvious. Kaounas: Okay. I rest my case. Henzi: And so, you made the case. I've been -- I miss Big Daddy's big time. Kaounas: Thank you. Henzi: 1 loved it. I went there many, many times. Kaounas: That was my place. Henzi: Many times. It's a very tough location for the reasons I just said, more than just money. But I want to go back to really the -- in my opinion, the only issue why we're here, and that's something Mr. Pastor made up, and that is why -- you don't need a variance if you just put as 12 square foot reader board. Why can't you just do that? If you need 15, explain why. And then we'll carry on and then we'll vote. Zaks: Sure. Again, I guess I go back to what the ordinance allows. It does allow a 30 square foot sign. We would be allowed the 15 square feet. We could easily make that correction, and that eliminates that problem. Coppola: Mr. Chair, doesn't he still need the variance to have the electric sign because his signs are not conforming? So he can't just go to 12 feet, is my understanding. Pastor: Yes -- building signs aren't conforming. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Not conforming, even though they're subject to a variance? So conforming must mean within the ordinance, is that -- Fisher: Yes. Henzi: Okay. Okay Hanosh: For us to grant -- for us to issue a permit without the Board's approval, it would all have to be conforming. He would have to go down to one sign on his building. Coppola: So -- Mr. Chair, so theoretically he could take down two signs, up to a hundred square feet on his building, he could put a 30 square foot monument sign and he could have 15 square feet of -- of -- of electronic sign without any approval of this Board. That's the way I understand. Fisher: Correct. Henzi: Is that something you're interested in, or no? Kaounas: I'd like to understand what you guys are offering again. Henzi: Can you tell him again? Coppola: You could, on a theoretical basis based on -- on our ordinances, have one -- building sign, not to exceed a hundred square feet, a 30 -foot monument sign, and a 15 - - it would include a 15 square electronic sign without any approval of this Board. It would be conforming. Kaounas: Okay, I mean -- if that's the last resort, we have to. But I'm going to say this. Can we work together here and make it happen? So that way this -- this place can make it happen. I mean -- to do something -- I mean -- we can take the signs down, okay. But are we giving it a hundred percent to try to make this place, or are we just giving it only 80 percent? You know -- we -- this is the last thing we can do here. Like I say, everyday financial is going down. We need the exposure, okay. We need exposure. Now, if that's my last resort, then that's what 1 have to do. That's what I'm going to do. But I'm asking you again, are we really truly -- I mean -- we're the business and we're the civil. We're working together. I'm here in your city to make something right. Okay. And I'm asking the Board to do the best as possibly for you gentlemen and ladies to approve something like that because there was three signs from day one there that always been on the buildings. It's not like I put them on. And when I came here, the Board gave me the sign because they knew it was a difficult area. They ask me to come into the city and I did. Now, I'm facing -- I can't put something like this. I have to take it off. if I have to take it I can. I tell you right now, I came to this city believing I can make it happen, working City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 73 September 27, 2096 together. I work together with all the way to the Mayor McNamara. I came here and build a factory and everything else so. But I'm asking you again, I like you to consider if you can just leave the signs, put the LED and see if we can make it. Like again, I can't guarantee you that I'm going to make it. But at least, I have to look myself in the mirror and says I did the best I could. Henzi: Fair answer. Kaounas: That's all. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: First to Mr. Fisher. As I read the resolution from the City Council, from July 25, 2016, it apparently there's only one issue before us. That is whether -- because they already approved the 15 square foot sign, and the issue for is whether he'd be allowed to put an electronic reader board in there. Fisher: Well, yes, that's correct. Neville: Okay. So are we just addressing that one issue versus two variances -- is it one variance or two variances that are before us? Fisher: I guess you can call it two because there's the fact that he has more than a hundred feet of signage on the property right now. So he -- that would prohibit him from getting any kind of electronic signage, and there is this modest overage on the size of the electronic sign. Neville: Okay. But the initial with the size of the monument sign -- 1 mean -- they already took into any consideration that would exist at their previously that he had all the -- that he had the three wall signs. So it's just really whether he was going to be allowed to have an electronic reader board on there versus a regular non-reader board sign. Fisher: Correct. Yes. I mean -- other -- it's two -- I guess what I thought you were asking was, is it one variance or two vis-a-vis the electronic reader board. That's two, but it -- the reader -- if you eliminate the reader board there's no variance at all. Neville: Okay. All right. I mean -- the cost to -- to tear down the existing monument just to replace it with something -- what would be -- how much would it -- what would be the cost to remove the existing monument sign and then exercise my opinion to create a larger monument just for purposes of being bringing the electronic reader board in. Zaks: That's an easy question. Because the configuration as you see it, as the brick peers on the brick base, simply matter of making a light larger cabinet that sits in that City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 73 September 27, 2016 brick peer. So now it's 24 square feet proposed. We could easily make it 30 square feet. Nothing's been built, obviously, so. And then we would meet the ordinance, as far as 30 square feet, we would meet the ordinance as far as 50 percent. Fairly simply. Neville: Okay. In the -- in the sign -- the electronic reader board, is that intended to shut down at the time the restaurant closes or is it going to be kept on an hour after business? What's the real time? Kaounas: No. Only when we are on operation. Neville: Okay. And plans for operation -- the hours are proposed are what? Kaounas: The hours there are from 11:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m., or sometimes on a -- the weekends, we stay unit twelve. Neville: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions. Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. Seeing no one come forward, can you read the letters? Baringhaus: There's no letters. Henzi: Mr. Kaounas, anything you want to say in closing? Kaounas: No. I just have to say I would appreciate if you people allow us to do that. And I think it would take both of us to make something happen. And I appreciate for your time. Thank you. Henzi: Okay. Thank you very much. I'll close the public portion of the case, and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Schepis. Schepis: Well, I do agree with Chairman Henzi that the way that this -- this area is laid out is -- you know -- less than ideal, and I think those cause you a hardship that warrants some variance. You know -- this is a relatively small size excess, as far -- you know -- compared to -- to -- to many that we see. I'm not sure I see the -- I'm not sure I would insist that you increase the size of the -- the base in order to fall within the ordinance on -- on that front. I think the other issue is the -- the electronic reader sign. You know -- don't think that the signs on your building are -- are -- you know -- oppressive to people or too big, and -- you know -- I think that -- you know -- I think that I would support this even as an electronic sign. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 73 September 27, 2016 Pastor: I'm still a little confused how he even got the monument sign. Sounds to me like, somehow, Council overrode the ZBA, which is not supposed to happen. After getting over that, I actually think he should be in conformance with his existing signs to allow this reader board. I'm looking at some of the other Resolutions where there was neon on the building that they include in signage. I don't know, do you have any neon on your building? Kaounas: Neon? Pastor: Yes. Kaounas: The -- the steakhouse had it, we don't. No -- Pastor: You have no working neon? Kaounas: No. Zaks: It's all been removed. Kaounas: All removed. Pastor: Okay. I still think he should be within the hundred square feet. I don't care about the extra signs being that there's three signs on the building, but I think he should be within the 100 square feet if he wants this reader board. I think there's got to be some compromise here. I understand your business problems. I understand that's been many other restaurants, but it's something that you bought. It's something that you knew when you bought it. You knew that there was a challenge there. So as it's presented, I will not support it, unless -- unless there's a change in the square footage of the signage on the building. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: He already, historically, has had very low traffic on Victor Parkway, both weekdays and weekends. Signage itself, personally, I think the building signage was much more effective for the business. It's much more visible in the general area. I -- the sign by the road, I'm willing to go with that only because of the difficulty of the area, location of the building, items like that. My recommendation is -- while you do have the sign, I think you really need to work and project your presence outside of Victor Parkway to the local area. So I will support the sign. Kaounas: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 73 September 27, 2016 Coppola: First of all, it's -- stated by Mr. Pastor -- I'm not even sure that this ground sign is actually -- actually legal. But setting that aside, yeah, it's definitely a challenged location. It's -- it's not a good location for a restaurant -- non -- I'll call it destination type restaurant. Dave & Buster's is a destination type restaurant. Dock's is because they have gambling. If it wasn't for gambling, Dock's wouldn't exist. This is not a good location for a restaurant, and -- and -- and three prior failed restaurants would probably tell somebody that, perhaps, it's time to do something else with that location. I don't believe that additional signage is going to make that much of a difference. It's a low -- it's a low traffic area. It can't be seen from anywhere else. it's just for the people that work, and there -- I mean -- it's -- there's quite a bit of office space there, but -- but not enough to -- to my perspective to make a difference. However, I would -- could be convinced to support this under two conditions. Number one, that the square footage of the signage be brought into compliance, such as -- as Mr. Pastor had -- Vice Chair Pastor had suggested, and number two, that this variance is only valid for this restaurant, under this name only. And if -- if -- and if -- if -- if this restaurant's to close, that sign's to come down. So you said this is your last shot, and it will make it work, then if it doesn't work -- and hope it does, actually I do. 1 hope you are successful -- I hope I'm wrong. I'm wrong a lot so you have a good chance of being right. Kaounas: Can't be right all the time. Coppola: But if not, then I would like it to -- to come -- not -- not be used. I want it to come down. Henzi: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: This one is fairly easy for me. I -- I've been to your restaurant. I went right when it opened. I live right -- right behind there, and I also used to work in Victor Parkway. So I know the neighborhood. I've been to every restaurant that's ever been there. And it's - - it is difficult. It's difficult to find it, see it, and -- and you should have every opportunity to try to make it work. You know -- if signs going to make it -- the difference -- is that going to push you over the top. I don't know, but I'd like to see you try. It's -- you know - - it's a couple foot over the -- the excess. I don't think taking down signs off the building is going to help matters. It's just kind of trading one off for the other one. i would probably support the idea that if -- that the variance would be just for this business only. Not the next guy. He would have to come back and do something different. So I would be in support. Henzi: Mr. Neville. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 73 September 27, 2016 Neville: Well, I think this is a no brainer as well. I think to suggest you go through the unnecessary expenditure and exercise of removing the existing monument sign and putting in a larger one just to make the fifty percent margins, is absurd. I think the excess, under the existing is -- is nominal. I think even with all your signs on your walls -- if I read the Planning Commission -- Mr. Taormina's comments and the City Councils comments, you'd still would be allowed to go up that thirty-foot monument sign. So you wouldn't have to take anything off. Zaks: Absolutely correct. Neville: So to suggest that then you have to monkey with the monument is, in my opinion, is not even the issue before us. And so I would be fully in support granting you the variance for the electronic reader board. Appreciate your commitment to the city of Livonia, and the fact that you're trying to bring jobs and -- and increase our tax base and to make success. Kaounas: Thank you very much, sir. Thank you. Henzi: I, too, will vote yes. I -- I think you definitely have a hardship for the reasons I said earlier, as well as the fact that the construction on the Infineon completely blocks Seven Mile access, which existed for decades before. I like Mr. Coppola's conditions. I'd also like to incorporate the condition about limiting the hours to the -- the hours of operation. I wouldn't have a problem if -- if it went too solid -- like the name -- solid when it's closed, but I could go along with having it completely turned off. Whatever the Board wants to do. What I mean is no flashing, no messages, just solid name of the business, or tum it off. Whatever the other Board members want to do. So floor's open for motion. Neville: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Upon Motion by Neville and supported by Klisz, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-09-66: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by John Kaounas, Johnny's Ribs and Pizza, 8001 Ronda Drive, Canton, MI 48187, seeking to install an electronic reader board into an existing masonry ground sign base, resulting in the reader board being excess in area. There are three (3) existing wall signs on the building totaling 131 square feet. Electronic signs are only allowed where all signs on site are conforming. Electronic Reader Board Area: Allowed: 12 sq. ft. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 73 September 27, 2016 Proposed: 15 sq. ft. Excess: 3 sq. ft. The property is located on the west side of Victor Parkway (19333), between Seven Mile and Pembroke, Lot. No. 024-01-0001-002, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 1$.50H(o),1,5, "Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts," be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of the orientation of the building on the property, the low traffic in the vicinity, and the inability or the hardship in bringing traffic to that location. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because of those same reasons. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the variance requested is de minimus. There has been no objection by any other surrounding property owners. 4. The Board received zero letters of approval and zero objection letters from neighboring property owners. 5. The property is classified as General Commercial in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the sign be on only during the hours of operation. 2. That the Petitioner comply with any other requirements imposed by City Council. 3. This variance only pertains to Johnny's Ribs and Pizza, and any successor business is required to remove the sign. AYES: Neville, Schepis, Coppola, Klisz, Henzi, Baringhaus NAYS: Pastor ABSENT: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: So it's granted. I'll read the conditions one more time. It's limited to this restaurant. If the restaurant closes, the sign has to come down. It's limited to operation -- limited reader board usage during hours of operation, and you've got to comply with the City Council requirements. We've incorporated those. Zaks: Sure. Thank you. Kaounas: Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-09-67: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by John Hope, 38126 Summers, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a six (6) foot tall vinyl privacy fence upon a corner loft, resulting in excess fence height. Fence Hei ht on a Corner Side Street: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 73 September 27, 2016 Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Summers (38126), between Nola and Houghton, Lot. No. 076-03-0977-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090 4,(b)ii, Residential District Regulations." Henzi: Mr. Hanosh, anything to add to this case? Hanosh: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table? Good evening. N. Hope: Good evening. J. Hope: Good evening. Henzi: Can tell your names and address? N. Hope: John and Nancy Hope, 38126 Summers Street. Henzi: Go ahead and tell us why you want to construct the corner side fence. J. Hope: Well, first of all, we moved from a nice place in Westland to Livonia, to a nicer city. And ever since we moved there, we have problems with people driving up and down the side street making cat calls towards my daughter, my wife, while we're out there. I'm just trying to put a little privacy fence -- when we have a nice dinner on the picnic table without these interruptions. And I just think with a five-foot fence, you're going to still see over it when you walk by or ride a bicycle. You know -- one more extra foot would definitely help out a lot. That way you wouldn't be able to see into the yard. Henzi: Okay. Anything else? N. Hope: Yeah. Me, personally, in the summer, I like to be out in my yard. And if we're working in the yard, I might want to be in a bathing suit or half of a bathing suit. And don't feel comfortable working in my yard, and everybody can walk by and see me. And a five-foot fence -- really people walking by, doesn't prevent them from looking over my fence. Where if we were having a party -- a small dinner party -- living on the corner -- we do have a lot of people walking by, walking by with kids, and things like that, and its just kind of -- it's just kind of awkward really. You know. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Do -- do you enter the sub from Hix. Is that where most folks on your street will enter and exit? N. Hope: You can enter off of Hix, or you can enter off Perth. Henzi: Okay. N. Hope: Hix is like two streets over. J. Hope: You know -- 1 just don't like the way the kids are up and down the street making comments, and I really don't need that. You know -- I know we were going to live on a corner, but 1 didn't expect -- you know -- that kind of -- you know -- confrontation with some kids being there. So we would just like a little privacy. I think it's going to add a nice sight for the corner because it is a nice white vinyl fence. it's not intruding and --you know -- none of my neighbors really had a -- you know -- any objection to it. So 1 don't think we should have a problem. N. Hope: That we know of. Henzi: Yeah. So there's a photograph of a six-foot white vinyl with -- I don't know -- posts on -- that's exactly the style you want? J. Hope: Correct. N. Hope: There are other corner houses in our subdivision that do have six-foot fence and above -- on a corner, right now. I'm sure they about the proper way of getting it, but they do exist. Henzi: Anything else? J. Hope: No. Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioners? Schepis: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: How far off of the sidewalk is this fence in? I can't tell from -- from this rendering. J. Hope: It should be one -foot off the fence -- city sidewalk. Is that what you're asking? Schepis: Yeah. J. Hope: Yeah. I guess that's the ordinance. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 73 September 27, 2016 Schepis: Oh, I see -- one -- one -foot. J. Hope: I mean -- all in our neighborhood, every corner lot almost has a privacy fence six-foot or taller. So I don't see what would be an objection to go -- you know -- for us. Henzi: Any other questions? Baringhaus: Yeah, Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Have you discussed the fence with your neighbors on Summers and Nola? N. Hope: A couple of them, yes. J. Hope: And they both were okay with that. They actually came over and said they were okay with that because they were notified with the letter. Actually, we have one -- N. Hope: We have one from one our neighbors. J Hope: -- that hand delivered it to us. Baringhaus: Oh, okay. And then I do have a question for the Inspection Department. Has a privacy and a chain link fence acknowledgement and authorization form been signed on these -- on this fence? Hanosh: They have not come forward for a permit application due to the fact that it's going to six feet. We have not started that process yet. Baringhaus: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Neville: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: As I drove by your home this afternoon, I believe the posts where the -- J. Hope: Existing -- Neville: -- the old fence still remained. J. Hope: Correct. Neville: And your intent is to then lay the -- the privacy fence with in that same -- City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 73 September 27, 2016 J. Hope: Correct. In that exact same area to where the existing fence was. Correct. Neville: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Based on this diagram in your package, you have 27 feet of fence -- I guess in front of the house -- for lack of a better term. Then 40 feet along the sidewalk, and then it turns in about 7 feet. J. Hope: Correct. Baringhaus: Can you describe what your plan is on that back 20 feet of that fence. Is that your neighbor's fence, or -- J. Hope: On the -- I can't see the drawing, but it should butt up to my garage. Baringhaus: Okay. J. Hope: Goes right up to the garage. So the garage will be exposed. Baringhaus: That's up to your garage. That's your garage, then? J. Hope: Yes, sir. Baringhaus: Oh, I got you. Okay. What type of fence is currently there? J. Hope: Oh, well we took it down. It was a chain link fence. Baringhaus: Oh, so that will be part of this current fence? J. Hope: Correct -- well that will be -- that will be torn down with all new fence posts. Baringhaus: Okay. Thank you. J. Hope: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hanosh: If I may let the Board know, because the fence is actually going to be on the street side, the neighbor's authorization will not be necessary in this case. Only for an adjacent neighbor, which would be on the west side of the house or the north side of the rear yard. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 73 September 27, 2016 N. Hope: Right. And the neighbor that is the north side, she came over and she said she was fine with it. I don't know if she sent her paperwork here or not, but they -- she came over and talked to me. Henzi: Okay. Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up. Seeing no one come forward, can you read the letters? Baringhaus: Letter of approval, Edgar Patterson, 14068 Nola, (letter read). Letter of approval, William J. Joudawlkis, 38237 Summers, (letter read). Letter of approval, Maryann Hall, 14077 Nola, (letter read). Letter of approval, Mary Marino, 38031 Summers, (letter read). Letter of approval, Carolyn Sokol, 38038 Summers, (letter read). Letter of approval, Melanie Ricketts, 14065 Houghton, (letter read). Letter of approval, Alex Andruszkiewicz, 38030 Summers, (letter read). Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Hope, anything you want to say in closing? J. Hope: Nope. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. I'll close the public portion of the case, and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I can support this. There's other houses in the subdivision. They have a lot of support from the neighborhood. So I can be in support. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: 1, too, would be in support. I think their request is very reasonable, and given the location of the home, I think the one additional foot is justified. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: I'd be in support. Henzi: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I would agree, as well. It's pretty consistent with what we've done on these requests for corner homes, and the neighbors are in strong support. So I would be as well. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: I would support the request for the variance also. In addition to what my colleagues have stated, LPD Officer Leigh went out there and viewed the proposed site City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 73 September 27, 2016 and found there would be no safety hazard or vision obstruction. So I would be in support for the requested variance. Henzi: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: Yeah, I would also support that. This --this neighborhood has numerous Domes on corner lots with six-foot privacy fences. I don't have any objection to it. Henzi: I agree. I'll support. Floor's open for a motion. Schepis: Mr. Chairman. N. Hope: What is the reason for the five-foot fence rule? Neville: Our forefathers decided that was the ordinance. J. Hope: I can't find a five-foot fence -- Home Depot -- Lowe's. The only way you get a five-foot fence would be like a fence company. Hanosh: The ordinance was written in 1995. Since 1995 the five-foot, I believe, has been there. Mr. Fisher. Fisher: I think the theory is -- the theory of the fence ordinance, five-foot -- six-foot whatever -- is that you have -- the neighborhood changes -- you have the entire place -- if every house is fenced -- with privacy fencing, it turns it into -- you know -- sort of little walled enclosures all over the place. And the idea is, a five-foot fence is more attractive from that standpoint than a six-foot fence. I mean, obviously, the taller the fence gets -- you get an eight -foot privacy fence, now it looks like a prison or something. J. Hope: Right. Right. Fisher: So -- you know -- somewhere in there you cross a line. And the current thinking reflected in that ordinance is that line is between five-foot and six-foot. Henzi: Mr. Schepis, go ahead. Upon Motion by Schepis and supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-09-67: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by John Hope, 38126 Summers, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a six (6) foot tall vinyl privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in excess fence height. Fence Height on a Corner Side Street: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 73 September 27, 2016 Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Summers (38126), between Nola and Houghton, Lot. No. 076-03-0977--000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090 4,(b)ii, Residential District Regulations," be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 6. The uniqueness requirement is met because this is a corner lot off of a busy neighborhood road. 7. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because for the same reasons. 8. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the neighbors are in support of it and it is consistent with other corner lots in this neighborhood. 9. The Board received seven letters of approval and zero objection letters from neighboring property owners. 10. The property is classified as "low density residential" in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the fence be built as presented both in the location and with the materials listed. AYES: Schepis, Neville, Klisz, Coppola, Pastor, Henzi, Baringhaus NAYS: ABSENT: Henzi: Variance is granted. You've got to construct the type of fence in the spot where you proposed. J. Hope: Okay. Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Good luck. APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-09-69: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Jeffrey and Koula Joyce, 18728 Laurel, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to raze the existing detached garage and construct another while maintaining the attached garage, resulting in excess number of garages, garage area and excess detached garage height. City of Livonia, Zoning Board ofAppeals Page 47 of 73 September 27, 2016 Number of Garages: Height: Allowed: One Proposed: Two Excess: One Garage Area: Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Proposed: 1425 sq. ft. Existing: 621 sq. ft. Excess: 705 sq. ft. Detached Garage Allowed: 16 ft. 0 in. Proposed: 18 ft. 4 in. Excess 2 ft. 4 in. The property is located on the east side of Laurel (18728), between Seven Mile and Curtis, Lot. No. 034-01-0015-001, RUF-B Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 2.10(5), "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms; Garage, Private" and Section 18.24, "Residential Accessory Building." Henzi: Mr. Hanosh, anything to add to this case? Hanosh: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Coppola: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: This may be legal or the Inspection Department. What -- property of this size -- when -- when does the thousand square foot limit come into play? It seems as I'm reading this particular ordinance, it says as long as there's no other structures -- out buildings on it that make it permitted up to a thousand square feet. Did I miss read that? Fisher: I think it has to be attached. Hanosh: Has to be attached. Coppola: For attached. So when it's detached, it goes back down to -- Hanosh: 720 square feet. What we do as well, is we calculate both the attached and the detached garage, and that's how came up with the 1425 square feet. Existing is attached is 621 square feet. That's where we come up with our excess of 705 square feet. Coppola: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table. K. Joyce: My name is Koula Joyce. I live at 18728 Laurel Drive. J. Joyce: I live at the same place. I'm Jeff. Henzi: Okay. Please go ahead and tell us about the garage you'd like to build. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 73 September 27, 2016 J. Joyce: Okay. So I don't know if they included the pictures. When we bought the house 20 years ago, there was an existing garage -- detached garage. It's -- it's deteriorating. It's low so it floods every time it rains. So I get like two inches of water. So I got to have everything up on blocks. So whoever built it didn't really pay attention to grade. And I wonder if they ever had a permit because it's built under the high tension wires. We actually have primaries going through -- 5000 volt, and it's built directly underneath right next to the transformer. I never had wires fall on it, but it's always a concern putting expensive motorcycles, and tractors, and things in there. And I -- I thought that I was allowed up to 720 square foot out building when I actually hired an architect. Turns out he did -- I must -- I came to the City and asked how much -- what can 1 build. They gave me a piece of paper that 720 square feet. Keep it under a certain height, and he didn't ask me if I had attached garage. So I didn't even know that was an issue. So that's how the planning got to where it is. I'm proposing a 700 -- I thought it was 716 square feet, but it has an overhang. So he actually included the roof area, not the wall area. So it's actually -- the layout is 716 square feet. It's kind of a shop garage. I have a finished basement so I have nowhere for a table saw. So my wife doesn't park in the garage. My two car garage is full of stuff. So I'm proposing moving it back out from under the wires, and building it large enough -- what 1 have is so narrow. It's a terrible design. If you put one thing in, you got to pull it out before you can get the thing behind it in. It's only 12 feet wide. So I think you have the plan. As far as consistency, I was encouraged to hear that you like to apply a consistent rule. Five of my neighbors have detached garages and attached garages, and I've approved -- since we moved there, three have been built both sides of me, two doors down on one, two doors down on the other and kitty corner, both houses have -- actually larger garages -- two of them are larger than I'm asking for. They're substantially larger. So didn't understand the height issue. My builder thought that you used the half pitch height and -- not my builder -- the architect. So I'm hoping to stick with that height because I'm putting an attic truss in to store wood and things up there, and so I don't have to crouch up there. It allows me, I think, five foot something if we go to the 18 foot 4. It's 175 feet back from the road. So I'm thinking -- and it's less height -- it's less high than my garage, which is right next to it. I don't think it will be obnoxious. So I was hoping to get both variances. The big this is it floods and it's just unusable the way it, and it's really deteriorating. It's rotting -- rotting around the bottom. So I've got to do something, and I really don't want to rebuild it there because of the wires. Henzi: Can you tell us about the building materials? J. Joyce: Of the existing? Henzi: No, what you propose -- shingles to match -- J. Joyce: Oh. What I'm proposing -- I'm proposing to match the house exactly with vinyl, both horizontal flat board type vinyl and the shingle vinyl on the front to match house -- the same color -- white trim -- black shingles -- kind of a carriage house look. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Okay, and then can you tell us what you will store in it. I know you've got a huge lot. Just tells us why you need it. J. Joyce: So I've got a -- I've got a big zero turn mower because I got to acres to cut. I got a large vacuum because I got enormous amount of leaves in the fall. So I've got a - - like a trailer vacuum. I've got a big 32 -inch snow blower. I've got 2 motorcycles that right now are -- usually stay in the garage and keep her car out. I think she's here to support the -- getting her garage back. I have fertilizer in there -- all my lawn -- my garden rakes and -- I have a large garden. We got about a 60x60 foot vegetable garden. So I got rototillers -- two rototillers, a big one and a small one. It's full. K. Joyce: Ladders. J. Joyce: Ladders -- it's packed full right now. And to get anything out I got to pull my zero turn out, pull the motorcycle out, get the lawn mower just because it's an odd -- K. Joyce: Bicycles. J. Joyce: We have -- we have three kids. So we have five bikes in there. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioners? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr, Pastor. Pastor: When I went by your house this evening, as you were cutting your lawn, thought -- J. Joyce: I thought someone was casing the joint, then I realized it was probably one of you guys. Pastor: I thought I saw some red barns or something on the -- I believe that was -- as you're looking at the house, it would be the right side. J. Joyce: I've got a chicken coop. It's not a permanent structure. It's a -- K. Joyce: It's mobile actually. J. Joyce: It's like a mobile -- it was supposed to be mobile. It turns out it was too hard to move. So it's stationary. It's a chicken coop. I've got some chickens back there. Pastor: Is that red? Was that -- it looked like a red barn or red wood. J. Joyce: It's red. Pastor: So that's another out building that you have on the property. J. Joyce: Yeah. But when I read the ordinances, 1 thought I was okay on that because they're not really considered permanent structures. It says for animals, I'm allowed to City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 73 September 27, 2016 have up to, I think it was 200 square feet or something a non -permanent structure and these are way less than that. So -- Pastor: How many do you have? J. Joyce: Pardon? Pastor: How many do you have? It was hard for me to see it -- what you had back there. J. Joyce: There's a -- there's like a feed storage area and a chicken coop. Pastor: How many square feet are those? J. Joyce: 1 didn't measure it. I would say 8x12, probably. Pastor: Each one? J. Joyce: No -- no -- no. The chicken coop is a cage -- I mean -- it's like 4 feet by 6 maybe. Pastor: They look bigger to me than that. J. Joyce: Well it's got a green roof over that feed area of the chicken coop because it was like a -- it was supposed to be a chicken tractor. You pull it around your lawn, but it turns out they destroy your lawn in about five minutes. So you can't do that. So it stays with the little -- the little shed. It's actually not even a building, there's not floor or anything. It's kind of like a pole barn thing. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: I want to follow up on that. Why do you say that it's a temporary structure? J. Joyce: Because there's no concrete floor. There's no permanent floor. I mean -- it would be -- Henzi: I get that. I understand that definition. How long have you had it? J. Joyce: I don't know, maybe 6 years. Henzi: Okay. Any other questions? Schepis: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: You said you were going to store your lumber and -- and saws and stuff in the proposed garage. What -- to what -- were you making furniture? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 73 September 27, 2016 J. Joyce: So I have a finished basement and it's not a real big basement because it's got the typical sunk family room so it didn't have a basement or a family room. So my garage is my shop. I'm an engineer. I like to work on projects -- build furniture -- just -- I'm not selling anything out of there. Actually, I was hoping that Chris would stay and be my spokesman. He was articulate. No we're not selling anything out of there. Not selling guns or marijuana. Couple of the neighbors came over and were rather concerned because it sounded to them like I was building a 1400 square foot building. One guy said, your garage is bigger than my house. What are you doing? No -- no -- no it's only 716 square feet. So if there's objections, 1 didn't go around and talk to all of the neighbors. It probably would have been a good idea. The one -- two neighbors did come talk to me. Their concern was why is it 1400 square feet, that's bigger than our house, and once I explained the size of it, they seemed to be fine with it. And it's going to be a lot nicer looking than what I have. It's going to be a lot safer, and it's going to be farther back. So I'm thinking it won't -- it will actually be an asset to the look of the neighborhood, rather than a distraction because of what I've got there now. Which take no responsibility for because it was there. Schepis: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Klisz: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr, Klisz. Klisz: You mentioned neighbors that are nearby. Do you know what size structures that have been built? J. Joyce: Yeah. The two that I -- that were built since I was there -- I think they came around like this, are your typical like 24x26 -- or 24x28 -- two car -- you know -- regular garage. Two of them are that plus a significant -- looks like a summer kitchen or something. It's an addition onto those. I'd say they're probably over a thousand square feet -- both of them. Klisz: And these are lots similar to yours? J. Joyce: Yeah. We all have two acres. Actually, there's about three or four houses on each side that's more like a subdivision that somehow they got smaller lots than the rest of us all the way down to the dead end street -- all have two acres, at least. Klisz: Thanks. J. Joyce: Actually, mine's one point nine something. I call it two. Henzi: Any other questions? Coppola: Mr. Chair. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: Just a minor question. I looked at the layout that you have on your property. You have two acres of land, why -- why are you going to build it six feet to the property line? Why so close to the property line? J. Joyce: I wanted -- I'm allowed five. So I pushed it back one, I guess, just to make sure I was well within my rules, and just to take less of my -- okay so the neighbor on that side, his garage and everything is on the far side. So we actually never see them. So it's not like it's up against their house. Everybody's got 175 -foot frontage, and our houses are typically in the center. So it's not anywhere close to his house. It's probably 50 -- 60 feet from his house -- my property line. So I just wanted to keep my yard. Actually, the one that's there is five feet away. So I moved it in a foot. We'll grade it higher so we don't have that water issue. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Question for the Inspection Department. Can you go over the definition of how you arrived 1425 square feet? Hanosh: What we did is we took the existing garage, which is 621 square feet, and he's proposing the new garage of -- actually totally if you take 1425 take away the 705, that's where you come up with our square footage, which would be the other 720. Coppola: Mr. Hanosh, with his layout of his house -- he showed the garage only being 24x22, which would 528 square feet. How did you come up with the 621? J. Joyce: I can tell you how he did. Because there actually is a little jut with a work bench that is 27 feet, but the general garage is 23x24. Coppola: So there's an actual section -- J. Joyce: Yeah, a little jut out into the -- by the front porch. So if you take the total square foot it's five something -- it's a little over. Coppola: Okay. l got it. J. Joyce: But then I do have an overhang in the back of the proposed garage for storage and firewood -- up off the ground and hidden from the neighbors. So if you include that, I think it kind of off sets the area in the garage. Henzi: Anything else? Fisher: Mr. Chair, can I just ask -- Henzi: Mr. Fisher. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 73 September 27, 2016 Fisher: Rather than have a six-year-old temporary structure without a rat wall housing your chickens, would it be possible to house them in a part of this building? J. Joyce: No because when they lay eggs, they make noise, and I have a 440 deep lot. So they're kind of as far as they can be from us and the neighbors. And they're messy. You really don't -- they destroy your lawn. There's really a good reason where they are. Fisher: Okay. Neville: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: In order to approve the variance, would you be willing to get rid of the chicken coop -- the chickens? J. Joyce: I just got a new set. They're just getting ready to lay. Do you know how much work that is? Neville: No, I don't. J. Joyce: Actually there's there's -- there are two other -- two other groups of chickens on our street. So it's like a happy neighborhood with chickens. I'd rather not. It's really a nice hobby, and it's great to have fresh eggs. And I give them to the neighbors, and they love to come over and bring their kids. Hanosh: Omelets tomorrow morning. J. Joyce: I'll bring you all eggs once they start laying. Oh wait, that might sound like a bribe. Neville: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Anything else? Anybody in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? No one's coming forward. Can you read the letters? Baringhaus: Letter of approval from Deno and Mary Piergenti, 18661 Laurel, (letter read). Letter of approval, Jackie Collins, 18945 Laurel Drive, (letter read). Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Joyce, anything you want to say in closing? J. Joyce: No. Just really hope we can get approved because I've been saving for this thing for ten years, and she wants her garage back. Henzi: Thank you. I'll close the public portion of the case, and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Okay, I guess getting through the math and seeing the actual size of the garage and how it's calculated. You definitely have a need for a replacement structure. That one -- you know -- obviously, it's served its time. It's located under the power City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 73 September 27, 2016 wires, things like that. So I think based on your proposal, which looks like it's very well thought out and designed, I'd have no problems with the variance. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: It's a large lot. Probably could pull a garage that size and have it look oversized. I am concerned on the sizes of garages that we're -- that we're approving these days, and while this is -- is not as -- as a behemoth as some that have come in. I guess I can -- i can be reluctantly supportive of the request. Henzi: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I think it's all about consistency. We've approved other structures in the nearby neighborhood on big lots, and that I think we should be consistent with that. And there is neighbor support as well. So I would be in support. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: I, too, will be in support of the requested variance for the reason expressed by my colleagues. Henzi: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: Yeah, I also support it. What you've proposed is not unreasonable for -- for the size property that you have. You've got a need for storage, and -- and I think you've demonstrated that. So I think it's time for a new structure there. So I would support it. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yes, you do have one of the larger -- lager lots in the city. The unique size of the garage area I don't have too much heartburn with. Although the detached height -- garage height, I do have some heartburn with. We've always been trying to keep that height restriction consistent. And it seems like all of a sudden, everybody wants an upstairs in their garage. They say for one thing. I assume that's what it is. Some of these garages are getting upstairs as big as some of the houses in Livonia. So as with that said, I will reluctantly approve this. Henzi: I, too, will approve. It blends in with the neighborhood. It doesn't adversely impact the neighbors. I typically don't like excess at all on height, but you're 175 feet away from a heavily wooded, infrequently traveled road, that's residential only. So I'll approve. F'loor's open for motion. Klisz: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Klisz. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 73 September 27, 2016 Upon Motion by Klisz and supported by Neville, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2096-09-69: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Jeffrey and Koula Joyce, 18728 Laurel, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to raze the existing detached garage and construct another while maintaining the attached garage, resulting in excess number of garages, garage area and excess detached garage height. Number of Garages Allowed: One Proposed: Two Excess: One Garage Area: Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Proposed: 1425 sq. ft. Existing: 621 sq. ft. Excess: 705 sq. ft. Detached Garage Heicift Allowed: 16 ft. 0 in. Proposed: 18 ft. 4 in. Excess 2 ft. 4 in. The property is located on the east side of Laurel (18728), between Seven Mile and Curtis, Lot. No. 034-01-0015-001, RUF-B Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 2.10(5), "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms; Garage, Private" and Section 18.24, "Residential Accessory Building," be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of similar structures in the neighborhood, and this is a neighborhood of very large lots. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because of the need for storage and the equipment owned for the large lot. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because of the neighbor support. 4. The Board received two letters of approval and zero objection letters from neighboring property owners. 5. The property is classified as "Low Density Residential' in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the 5 day waiting period to obtain the permit be waived. 2. That the proposed structure be built as described. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 56 of 73 September 27, 2016 AYES: Klisz, Neville, Schepis, Coppola, Pastor, Henzi, Baringhaus NAYS: ABSENT: Henzi: Variance is granted with that one condition. Good luck to you. K. Joyce: Thank you. J. Joyce: Thank you. I have one question. If I feel really generous with myself, and I decide to put like -- I was just thinking of this when you said built as per the plan. If I decided to put a little stone wall on the bottom or something to actually make it nicer than I have in the plane, would I need to come back? Pastor: No. Henzi: No. J. Joyce: Okay because I got some stone on the house. Henzi: The building will work with you. J. Joyce: Thank you. APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-0970: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Andrew Smyk, 35422 Oakdale, Livonia, Ml 48154, seeking to erect a six (6) foot tall privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in excess fence height. Fence Height within the Corner Side Yard City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 57 of 73 September 27, 2016 Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Oakdale (35422), between Ronnie and Wayne, Lot. No. 065-01-0119-000, R-313 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A, 4, bii, Residential District Regulations." Henzi: Mr. Hanosh, anything to add to this case? Hanosh: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table? S. Smyk: Hi, I'm Sonia and this Andrew Smyk. A. Smyk: 35422 Oakdale. Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Smyk, go ahead and tell us about the fence you want to construct. S. Smyk: Well, as you can see by the photos that we submitted, we have one of those beautiful lattice 1965 fences that needs to -- I mean — it's original to the house, no doubt. It's heaving on its posts, all the way around the fence itself. All the posts are -- if you look in the photo, they've raised at least six inches, if not more, to the point that our gate has fallen off. You can't even fix that gate. We've tried securing it, but we can't fix it. We do have an in ground pool, and by law, we need to have a secure gate. We're asking to have a six-foot fence because we are on a corner, but we have a side entry garage. So our backyard and our fence part is kind of on the side of the back part of the house. So we do have a sidewalk that comes along the fence, and we do have gawkers. I do have two young teenagers -- girls -- and we do have an in ground pool, and the -- you know -- the summer has came and went and we had plenty of -- well anyway -- people who are - - you know -- checking them out and all that. So even for privacy too. You know -- we do have a patio back there. And there's traffic now -- you know -- nicer weather. There's a lot of people walking around -- and just basically privacy. That's what we're looking for. And we have talked to our neighbors, and there are no issues with the one behind or the one next door to us -- on the side of us. Basically that's where we're at. Henzi: Which option do you want to go with, one or two? S. Smyk: Which one are we talking about? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 58 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Oh, you have renderings -- one's all in beige, one's the wood finish. S. Smyk: Oh, we're looking at -- A. Smyk: Option 1. S. Smyk: We made our decision, Option 1. A. Smyk: It's cheaper. S. Smyk: But it going to be -- it's going to match our house, and it's going to be the same color vinyl. And basically, I think, everybody will be very excited in my neighborhood to see a new fence go up. A. Smyk: Get rid of the black and white checker board fence. Henzi: And isn't it the same outline as what exists? S. Smyk: It's exactly the same, and -- I mean -- it's along the sidewalk -- I mean -- we do have hostas on that side. We do have established landscaping on the other side, on both sides of the fence. We do have evergreen -- a big evergreen and some tree -- three tress along the fence line. So to move the fence, we just can't. We do have a -- another type of security type of fence around the pool, but it doesn't go all the way around the pool. It's only the part -- the exposed side, and then it goes into perpendicular into our current fence. Henzi: Any questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? J. Flannigan: John Flannigan, my wife, Chris here also. We live right across the street from them -- 35427 Oakdale -- right across the street. In fact, a little bit to the left. We look right at you -- where their fence will be. Fully in support of it. Everything they do in their house is top -- is top grade. The house, the landscaping, everything. I'm sure the fence will look wonderful. I've always wondered why they didn't already have one, but I see they have to jump through hoops to get it. There -- like I said, there's a sidewalk that runs right alongside of it, right by their pool, and just by the dynamics in the neighborhood, they get a lot of traffic on that sidewalk. A block up Wayne. People walking. People trick or treating come down Wayne and go around the block and go up by the side of the house. So their sidewalk is much higher traffic than most of the sidewalks in the neighborhood also. So I've always wondered why they didn't already have one. House right across the street's had one for years, and like it said, everything they do is top -- is first rate. So I'm fully in support of it. Wonder why they don't already have one. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 59 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else. Are there letters? Baringhaus: Yeah. We have four letters. Letter of approval, Kimberly Colleran, 16119 Ronnie Lane, (letter read). Letter of approval, Karen Bradford, 35401 Oakdale, (letter read). Letter of approval, Gary Arceri, 16160 Ronnie Lane, (letter read). Letter of approval, Timothy McCarthy, 16188 Wayne Road, (letter read). Pastor: We did get one from the police department saying it would be a big improvement. Baringhaus: There you go. Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Smyk, anything you want to say in closing? S. Smyk: No. A. Smyk: We don't want to raise chickens. Henzi: All right. I'll close the public portion of the case, and begin comments with Mr. Coppola. Coppola: I support. Henzi: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: This is basically the same as the last one we approved with the added benefit of it being a pool in my head. So I'm in support. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: I'm in full support of the request of the variance. Henzi: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: I also support this. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I'll be in support. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: I am in support of the variance. Henzi: I'll vote yes as well. Floor's open for motion. Coppola: Mr. Chair. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 60 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Upon Motion by Coppola and supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-09-70: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Andrew Smyk, 35422 Oakdale, Livonia, Ml 48154, seeking to erect a six (6) foot tall privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in excess fence height. Fence Height within the Corner Side Yard Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Oakdale (35422), between Ronnie and Wayne, Lot. No. 065-01-0119-000, R -3B Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A, 4, bii, Residential District Regulations," be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of the property being on a high traffic corner and having a pool on the property. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because they lack the privacy and the neighbors are unhappy with the existing fence. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because of the neighbor support. 4. The Board received three letters of approval and zero objection letters from neighboring property owners. 5. The property is classified as "low density residential" in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the 5 day waiting period to obtain the permit be waived. 2. That the fence be constructed with materials listed in Option 1. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 61 of 73 September 27, 2016 AYES: Coppola, Pastor, Klisz, Neville, Schepis, Henzi, Baringhaus NAYS: ABSENT: Henzi: The variance is granted with two conditions. You got to choose Option 1, as you presented, and then you can get a permit tomorrow if you'd like. We've waived the five day waiting period. S. Smyk: Okay. Thank you. A. Symk: Excellent. Thank you very much. Henzi: Just go down to the Building Department. S. Smyk: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Good luck. APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-09-71: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Michael and Danielle Macari, 33733 Clarita, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a six (6) foot tall vinyl privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in excess fence height and the fence not aligning with the neighbors existing fence in the corner side yard. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 62 of 73 September 27, 2016 Fence Height: Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the south side of Clarita (33733), between Stamford and Whitby Lot. No. 03305-0003-000, R-213 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A, 4, bi, bii, "Residential District Regulations." Henzi: Mr. Hanosh, anything to add to this case? Hanosh: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department. Hearing none, will the Petitioners please come forward? M. Macari: Michael and Danielle Macari, 33733 Clarita. Henzi: You guys picked the wrong month to be the last Petitioner. D. Macari: Long night. Henzi: I thought -- well we made up a lot of time. I was thinking 10. So we're doing well. So go ahead, take it away. D. Macari: We were told it could be as late as midnight. So here we are. Henzi: Go ahead, tell us about the fence. M. Macari: Yeah, we would like to just put a six-foot vinyl fence up on the -- D. Macari: Stamford side. M. Macari: -- Stamford side of our house -- extending 8 feet off the back of the house, going down 39 feet, and then 30 feet over connecting -- or stopping at where the -- D. Macari: The chain link. M. Macari: -- the chain link fence is there. And then on the adjacent side, putting a chain link fence up connecting to where the chain link is to our neighbor adjacent to us and going up and just around our air conditioner, and having a gate access on that side. We'd just like a little extra privacy for the extra foot. Driving north on Stamford -- you know -- if we have our lights on in our house and the shades open, people can see in easily. We City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 63 of 73 September 27, 2016 would like just the extra extension out to make it a little bit bigger in the backyard. We did just get a dog. We'd like him to be able to run around a little -- a little more. D. Macari: Just to add to that too. Similar to the first case. I am home during the summers, during the day, and 1'd like to be outside in the backyard. And while we have lovely people in our neighborhood, it would be nice to have a little a privacy and not be approached --- you know -- when I'm out there just trying to do things, or sunbathing, or anything like that. In the sub there are other privacy fences on corner lots, not necessarily vinyl, but we feel like that would be the best option aesthetically. M. Macari: And it will be similar color to our house. It's not going to be bright, or white, or anything -- a similar color. D. Macari: Right. M. Macari: We did get the sheet signed for the adjacent house already. That's all who we thought we needed to talk to. So we didn't wander out and ask everybody else until - - I didn't even know -- we're new home owners. So when the notice came the out, and it said that everybody 300 feet around, we were like oh, I guess. D. Macari: We maybe should have talked to -- M. Macari: We should have talked to a little more, but -- D. Macari: And just also, as a clarification, the reason that we want to come like 8 feet from back of the house toward the Stamford side versus just running it flush with the house along that side, is because we have some arborvitae trees, and if we -- we would have to remove those in order to run it flush with the house. M. Macari: There's landscape, and wood chips, and -- D. Macari: Yeah. We -- there was some eye sores when we bought the house and the landscaping, and so we tried to improve on that. And we would like not to have to reverse -- you know -- what we've already done. Henzi: Did you guys install those? Because that looks new and looks pretty good. M. Macari: Yeah. D. Macari: Yeah, we did install -- we did a lot of work by ourselves, but they're a year and a half -- a year. They've been there for a little while now. M. Macari: I chopped down a lot of trees in the back there. Quite the fruit grower before us. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 64 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Oh, okay. Any questions for the Petitioners. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Explain to me on this chain link how far forward you're coming -- I assume you're talking about on your east side -- east side of the house? M. Macri: Yes. On the -- from the -- we're going to have it done by Upright Fence. They -- it looks like 16 feet up further. Pastor: Up from the back of your house? M. Macri: From where the chain link on our neighbor's house is coming out. Yeah, it's from -- it's basically on the back -- like the back of the house over there. D. Macri: Yeah, because -- Pastor: So you're going from the back of the house -- back corner of the house 16 feet towards the garage? M. Macri: Yes. Pastor: Okay. M. Macari: And the reason we kind of wanted that is -- you know -- because our air conditioner is over there. We'd probably like to store some other things outside. Like get some bins and stuff. So we're not clogging everything into the garage. Pastor: Okay. So the chain link fence is going to go back to the property corner. Is it turning and going down that 77 -foot line, or is that all going to be privacy? M. Macari: No. That is -- that's already chain link right now. D. Macari: Yeah -- Pastor: You're not replacing that? M. Macari: No, we're not replacing that. There's no fence. D. Macari: We're just connecting. Pastor: Because on my drawing you got -- it's hard to tell how long. You got your privacy coming back on that line 10 feet -- 8 feet -- whatever it is. Is that what you're doing with that privacy, or are you just -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 65 of 73 September 27, 2016 D. Macari: I'm sorry. Can you clarify which side you're talking about. Pastor: You have your privacy fence coming 8 -foot out from your house. M. Macari: Yes. Pastor: You said going back 39 feet, I believe you said. M. Macari: Yes. Pastor: And you got a return on it. It looks like 8 -- 9 -- 10 feet. M. Macari: It's going to be on this drawing -- it's going to be 30 feet back connecting to the chain link fence that is already there. Pastor: 30 feet back. So it's going to be back over here somewhere? M. Macari: I can show you. I have a drawing from our Upright Fence guy, if you wanted to see it. Henzi: Yeah. Go ahead. Just be careful if you describe because we're making a record. Are you satisfied? Pastor: It's just clarifying. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: How tall is the chain link fence? M. Macari: I believe four feet. Baringhaus: Four feet. Henzi: Any other questions? Neville: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: Just for clarification. I'm just trying to recall. So on the east lot line, is there currently a chain link fence, or there is nothing? M. Macari: There's nothing. There's just a chain link fence coming out from our neighbor's house and stretching down his back. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 66 of 73 September 27, 2016 D: Macari: So our neighbors behind us and then our neighbors adjacent to us both have chain link fences, and we didn't want to -- you know -- disturb any of that. We just want to enclose our area. Neville: Okay. Just looking at your mortgage survey -- the document presented with your file. So as you go from, I guess that would be the northeast corner of your lot, bringing it -- coming south along the east lot line, does the -- there is or is not a chain link there? M. Macari: There is up to the back -- it goes up to like the back of that -- our house -- Neville: I got you. M. Macari: -- but connected to my neighbor. Neville: Where the 5.3 -- I presume that's feet where that number is referenced on the mortgage survey? M. Macari: Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I guess. Neville: You are intending to bring it the forward or south up the point where it says -- where the last double slash line is on the --just trying to figure out -- M. Macari: Yeah, that -- from that point, we're going to bring it out about 16 feet from the corner measurement - the guy came out. Just wrapping that -- so I think our air conditioner is on that side -- just bringing that enclosed. Neville: Very good. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for against the project? D. Hartsock: Dale Hartsock, 18746 Stamford Street. I'm in the house -- my -- side of my house is back to their house. And we didn't get a chance to this -- to them about this before because we left for vacation the day we found out about. So we sent a letter, which probably has changed. One this is I -- I'm against the fence extending out towards Stamford. That going to be 10 feet in front of my house -- maybe 12 feet in front of my house. That's going to look really bad. And I prefer they do something more aesthetically. They mentioned other fences in the neighborhood, I can't really think of any except one that has about six-foot fence, which has a gate in it down -- down the block. So in that regard I respect their right for privacy, but I really hope they can find some other means. know that people across the street from Stamford, they asked about putting in a fence, and the neighbor's said no, and they went with it, and I think I'm glad they didn't put a fence in because it looks a lot better now. So if they put the fence in -- I prefer not it be City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 67 of 73 September 27, 2016 out further than the front of my house. I really prefer the do something more aesthetically pleasing because there aren't -- there are practically no fences in the neighborhood other than chain link fences. I guess I'm finished. Henzi: Thank you. D. Hartsock: I don't want to lose their friendship. I like my neighbors. I just wanted to voice my opinion. M. Macari: Agreed. Henzi: Thank you. C. Hartsock: Can we see the drawing? D. Hartsock: We haven't seen the drawing. C. Hartsock: We didn't -- we didn't get a chance to talk -- Cecilia Hartsock. We didn't get a chance to talk to them or thoroughly understand what's going on. D. Hartsock: One thing. They mentioned going out 8 feet from the trees. If they -- I don't think they need to go out 8 feet and go past the trees. The trees are almost flush with the house. D. Macari: If I could just add to that. I think the -- the reason -- when we had the Upright Fence come out and do the estimate, the reason they suggested 8 feet, l believe, had something to do with the size of the panels or how they're -- they're made. So and I did ask the person who came out and gave us the estimate about the -- the arborvitaes that we planted, and he did say they would have to be removed to make it -- or at least moved to make it flush. And like we were saying, we did put a lot of work into the house and to try and make it -- D. Hartsock: We appreciate that. Henzi: Wait -- wait -- wait we can't -- we can't go back and forth because we're making a record. D. Macari: Okay. Henzi: So let's start with the Hartsock's. Anything else you want you want to say, and then they'll have an opportunity to respond. So I'll make sure everything you brought up that they respond to. But you have the floor and then we'll give it to -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 68 of 73 September 27, 2016 D. Hartsock: Like I say, I object to going out 8 feet. I would prefer a fence that's -- something other than a fence if possible. If they can't -- if they have to do a fence, I hope it won't be white. C. Hartsock: There is really no other 6 -foot fences in the neighborhood. There's one that's kind of like a gate, and across the street they have just a little bit -- it's not enclosed at all. It just borders their patio. But I understand your desire for privacy. I really do, but to go way out like that, I think that's a problem. Henzi: Okay. Just to let you know -- C. Hartsock: Maybe just something more -- Renzi: -- we have your letter, but we're not going to read it out loud. We've read it to ourselves, but you spoke. So we're not going to read it. Okay. D. Harstock: Like I said, we wrote -- we were leaving for vacation the next day. We wrote that in about an hour because we had to get something in. We came back today about an hour before this meeting started. We came to this meeting after driving 20 hours. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. Can you read the letters? Baringhaus: Yeah we have three letters -- three letters. One letter of approval, Ashley Bajas, 337656 Clarita, (letter read). Letter of approval, James and Cheryl Hixon, 18582 Whitby, (letter read). Letter of objection, Bev and Gary Freeborn, (letter read). Henzi: Thank you. Mr. and Mrs. Macari, anything you want to say in closing? D. Macari: If l could just address a couple of -- of your concerns. So in regard to the color. It's not going to be a white -- like -- stark color. It would be a color consistent with our house. So it would -- you know -- match well. Secondly, as far as vinyl fences are concerned, those are -- they last longer, unlike the wooden fences. And there are several wooden privacy fences in the neighborhood -- because we drove around just to kind of look and see. We didn't want to be -- you know -- standing out. And these do -- the materials -- they last longer than the wooden fences. So aesthetically -- you know -- we feel that it would be a better option than a wooden fence. And then in regard to the height, a five-foot fence is fine and it's nice, but you would still be able to see over it -- you know -- from the backyard -- where people walking by because most of the adults are over five feet tall. So and -- you know -- I'm short, I'm still over that height. We love having you guys as neighbors too, and we -- you know -- wish we would have gotten -- provided more detail, or gotten a chance to talk about it. So we apologize for that, but we still would like to move forward with the fence. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 69 of 73 September 27, 2016 Henzi: Okay. Thank you. I'll close the public portion for the case and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Klisz. Klisz: Again, we've heard -- this is the third one tonight. It's a corner lot. It's a one -foot exception. I'm in support. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: I can understand or appreciate the neighbor's concerns. I agree with Mr. Klisz. In our responsibilities will be a uniform -- is to make our decisions in uniformity. And I think in light of the need expressed by the Petitioners that it would be unfair us to deny the variance in this circumstance, while granting the -- the request for a variance in the other two. I would note, also, that I find that the placement of the fence, especially along the west side of the property line, very reasonable from the stand point that they're not trying to fence off a larger area of their rear year -- seeing where they go a foot off the sidewalk. So I think they've tried to minimize the -- the amount of their rear yard that is being fenced off. And I think they've established the need for their -- for their privacy, and I would be, under those circumstances, in favor of granting the request for the variance. Henzi: Mr. Schepis Schepis: Well I also think that you have a hardship, and it's to say it's a hardship that we recognize on corner lots. I think that you've -- you've made an effort to minimize how far -- or how much your fence impacts your neighbors. I don't -- I don't if that I heard a clear yes or no answer to the question of whether there's any room to -- to move on that eight feet. I don't know if there is. I think if there is, that's worth exploring with your neighbors, but because I think they raised a concern. But with that said I -- I would support this. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Excuse me. Yes, I think I'll be in support of this. Normally, most people would ask for a one -foot off the sidewalk, which they have not done. They are asking for eight - foot off the house, which I find acceptable, especially due to them saying they have some large trees in the backyard, and you want to be on the outside of the drip of those trees, or else you may damage them when putting the posts in the ground. Excuse me. So have no problems with the way they proposed this. Also, on the east side of the property coming up the side of the house, l don't see any real problem with that. Other than if you're going to a bunch of junk there. I would have a problem with that. As you propose, I will -- I don't see any problems. Excuse me. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 70 of 73 September 27, 2016 Baringhaus: Mr. Neville and Mr. Pastor made some very good points. Whether the fence is designed -- the privacy fence -- it's to de minimize the impact on the general area and sort of blend in, more in the background with the surrounding area. The chain link fences -- good thought in those. Again, I agree, running the chain link fence along side of the house half way, makes perfect sense. I'll support the variance. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: Yeah, I -- I, too, can be in support. I do fully empathize with the -- with the neighbors. Again, based on -- on how the corner lot sits, especially if their fence is being brought to the -- to the sidewalk, that kind of cuts off the front of your house. I appreciate that. I think they've tried to -- to be somewhat accommodative and -- and not go the full distance to -- to the sidewalk and provided a little bit of openness. When you have a corner lot, privacy is -- is -- is an issue and a difficulty. I think this type of an exception or variance is -- is reasonable based on all of the factor that are involved. Henzi: Yeah, I agree with Mr. Coppola. I mean -- in this situation if -- historically if we've had adjacent homeowner who didn't want the fence, we would table and require them to get together. What's been proposed, however, is more reasonable than, I think, any kind of compromise I've ever seen under the circumstances because of exactly what Mr. Coppola said, that they won't to the sidewalk. I think that this is a good compromise. So I'll vote yes. Floor's open for motion. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Upon Motion by Baringhaus and supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-09-71: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Michael and Danielle Macari, 33733 Clarita, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a six (6) foot tall vinyl privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in excess fence height and the fence not aligning with the neighbors existing fence in the corner side yard. Fence Height: Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the south side of Clarita (33733), between Stamford and Whitby Lot. No. 033-05-0003-000, R-213 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection City of .Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 71 of 73 September 27, 2016 Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A, 4, bi, bii, "Residential District Regulations," be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met due to the corner lot location of the property. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner due to the lack of privacy in their rear yard area. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because of the neighbor's support. 4. The Board received two letters of approval and one objection letter from neighboring property owners. 5. The property is classified as "Low Density Residential" in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. None AYES: Coppola, Klisz, Neville, Schepis, Pastor, Henzi, Baringhaus NAYS: ABSENT: Henzi: Variance is granted. Good luck. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: We have Minutes to approve, August 30, 2016. Coppola: Support. Henzi: Moved by Mr. Pastor, support by Mr. Coppola. All in favor, say aye. Board Members: Aye. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 72 of 73 September 27, 2016 Pastor: I make a motion to adjourn. Coppola: Support, Henzi: Moved by Mr. Pastor, support by Mr. Coppola. All in favor, say aye, Board Members-, Aye. Henzi: We're adjourned. There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned at 9:54 p.m. Matt, Henzi, Chairman Jim Barin haus, Secretary /ban City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 73 of 73 September 27, 2016