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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2013-03-19City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 51 March 19, 2013 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING HELD MARCH 19, 2013 A Special Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, March 19, 2013. MEMBERS PRESENT: Matthew Henzi, Chairman Craig Pastor, Vice President Sam Caramagno, Secretary Elizabeth H. McCue Kathleen Mcintyre Robert E. Sills MEMBERS ABSENT: Edward Duggan, Jr. OTHERS PRESENT: Mike Fisher, Assistant City Attorney Dennis DeMeyer, City Inspector Helen Mininni, Court Recorder The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight's minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Six (6) members were present this evening. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were fourteen persons present in the audience. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 51 March 19, 2013 APPEAL CASE 2013-03-08: Clarenceville United Methodist Church, 20300 Middlebelt, seeking to erect a seven foot tall coated open wire fence, used for deer protection, to surround a garden area located in the rear yard resulting in excess fence height. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, does the Inspection Department have anything to add? DeMeyer: The Inspection Department has nothing to add at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. DeMeyer? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Mr. DeMeyer, are there any ordinance violations or problems on this property? DeMeyer: No. Caramagno: Has there been in the past? DeMeyer: No. Caramagno: Okay, thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Mr. DeMeyer, is a coated fence within our Ordinance or is that just the slats that we don't allow? DeMeyer: It's just the slats that we don't allow for privacy. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table. Good evening. Petitioner: Good evening. Henzi: Have a seat. Can you tell us your name and address, please? Petitioner: My name is Carl Heitz, and I live at 21748 Baldwin Street in Farmington Hills. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 51 March 19, 2013 Henzi: Why don't you tell us about the fence that the church wants to erect. Petitioner: Sure. This is a 7-foot high metal hexagrid fence that is being erected, we'd like to have it erected, we're requesting to have it erected, to prevent deer from continuing to damage the produce, the vegetables that are being delivered to our local food pantry ministry at the church. Additionally, we would like to --- our hopes is to additionally in addition to our local food pantry ministry is to send the extra produce to organizations like Livonia Cares that supports or has volunteers for Livonia and Westland food pantries. Any questions? Henzi: There's a photo of the fence, is that exactly the type that you're going to have? Petitioner: Yes, it is. We also took the initiative to reach out to our neighbors along Morlock street and Parkville, I believe, eighteen homes we visited and for those that were either there or not there, they had a packet like this with photographs similar to the ones in the blue folder that were presented in advance for your viewing and we received two letters back in support of the higher fence and I have copies of those for your members. The first one is for Craig and Sherry Barden who live on 20307 Parkville in Livonia. The second one is Jean Hoffman, which lives at 20315 Parkville Street, both of which are to the east of our property. Would you like me to hand these out? Henzi: Pass them around. Petitioner: Sure. And behind the two copies of letters I also have an additional photograph of the metal hexagrid fence that's colorized for you. The fence is nearly invisible to deer because of their poor peripheral and depth perception. Henzi: Did you contract with a fence company and the fence company recommended this type of fence? Petitioner: No. Actually I went to another community garden that's in Southfield, it's called Lutheran Emanuel Community Farms. They are located on the northwest corner of Nine Mile and Evergreen, I believe. They have a smaller version. They were using a polypropylene fence. This metal hexagrid fence is actually stronger and more sturdier than that and looks a lot nicer. Henzi: Does the Board have any questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Is this fence a permanent fence or is this something you can take down? Petitioner: This is a permanent fence. Pastor: Could you take it down seasonally? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 51 March 19, 2013 Petitioner: That is not our intention. Pastor: That wasn't my question. Petitioner: We're using posts that are in cement to have it as a permanent fence. Pastor: I understand the posts but the way this picture shows is it's held up by a wire and it looks like zip ties to keep it in place, could you not take that down over the winter season? Petitioner: Our perimeter is going to be 140 by 160 and we have no plans to take it down, it would be very difficult. Pastor: Okay. Petitioner: We'll be putting in a --- I don't have all the materials as far as what they're using but they indicated it would be heavy duty twist ties to put around the poles which are 1 5/Sths and then at the top, at the top of the fence at the 7-foot level, they'll also have an 8-gauge nylon monofilament to go across that, not to hold it up but to stabilize it during the winter months that we have ice or snow. Pastor: If this is almost invisible to the deer, why would the deer stay away from this? Petitioner: Because it has a black coating it's hard for them to --- because their peripheral vision is poor, they cannot differentiate the top of the fence between what the distance is and so with that idea, that's why it's not a good idea to put a top bar on like a chain link fence, is to have that rigid there that way they can't tell how high it is and it would most likely discourage them from trying to jump because they don't know ho high it is. That's the reason for it. Pastor: What's the difference between that and a 5-foot or a 6-foot? I'm just trying to get my head around this. I mean why is it 7-foot, why doesn't it work at 6-foot or 5-foot? Petitioner: I don't know the answer to that. We were --- I had spoken to the manager at Southfield at the Emanuel Community Garden and he had done a lot of research on it and had decided to go with this McGregor Fence Company and they indicated that some fences can go up to 10-feet but you know that's a little ridiculous, but they have rolls that go up to 7-feet. It's actually about 7 'h feet but we're looking at 7 feet with six inches to either go along the ground with stakes to go on the ground or we can bury the last six inches into the ground. Pastor: Okay, thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience that wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the table. Lynn Marmee: I'm Lynn Marmee and I'm one of the co-coordinators of the Pantry Plus Program at Clarenceville United Methodist Church and I can't tell you how much the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 51 March 19, 2013 produce helped last summer but we had some losses to the deer that were great losses. Our people really rely on the fresh vegetables and we're planting fruit also and they really rely on that. And we saw a difference, believe it or not, in the countenance when they were eating the fresh vegetables, they totally changed, it's like they became almost glowing because they're getting the vegetables and the vitamins and so forth that they need in their body and they don't have the money to purchase the produce and so that's why it's so important to keep the deer out of the garden so that we can get a better meal from the garden. Henzi: Thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Excuse me, Miss? Lynn Marmee: Yes. Pastor: Do you know how much you lost in the yield? Lynn Marmee: Yes, because --- well, part of it was the drought last summer also, we had a real hard time with the drought because we didn't have an irrigation system and so you know that's part of the loss. But the loss was mainly them kind of nibbling on the top of the plant so that the leaves would die and our master gardener in our garden noticed that, that she would go out and check, she's in the Livonia Garden Club and she noticed that they're nibbling on the plants and that would kill the leaves and thus create a problem with bugs and insects that love the plants because it would open up like the juice in the leaves of the plant and we have more problems with bugs and so forth. Pastor: Well, what was your loss? Lynn Marmee: Well, I can't put it in terms of how many bushels. Pastor: Approximately, 10 percent, 20 percent, 30 percent? Lynn Marmee: Well, it's really hard because of the drought, the drought was part of it also so and it was our first year so we don't know what our yield is going to be in a good year but I would say we probably lost two or three bushels of major vegetables. We got --- very few green peppers. We got very few cucumbers. And we planted a lot, okay, so there was a major loss. It sounds little but for us it was large. And we want to be able to provide produce to the other pantries. I'm part of the Livonia Parents Group and I already announced that if when we get to our third phase, we have phases of the garden, when we get to our third phase we will be able to provide produce to other pantries that I am in contact with through that group. Pastor: So when you say have three stages, explain that to me. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 51 March 19, 2013 Lynn Marmee: Okay. Well, the first stage was what we did just last year and that was basically taking the garden, plowing it, getting the beds prepared, making decisions on how long, how wide the crops should be, finding part of our congregation that would like a plot, and then the others are for the pantry. We have a percentage that is for the pantry and that will be greater than the people who rent. But we need the rental money to pay the difference in the water bills that will come because of this. And that's a diagram of the garden. Petitioner: Later on in your folder there it shows phase one, phase two and then phase three. Phase three is the 49 by 160. Lynn Marmee: And we watered all last summer with what was it a 250-foot hose? Petitioner: It was a 300-foot hose. Lynn Marmee: And milk jugs. And I got to tell you all, it was horrible. So our next phase is irrigation and then the deer fencing will come and that's going to happen fairly quickly so we're hoping you will approve. Pastor: Are you doing the deer fencing this year or is this something in the future? Petitioner: Our primary- our priority right now is irrigation. Lynn Marmee: But I do have financing promised for the deer fencing so we might be able to do it this year if they can get to the irrigation in time. I want to do it this year because it's very important. Pastor: Once if we do approve this, we usually put a time limitation on it. Lynn Marmee: Okay. Pastor: Of when it has to be finished. Lynn Marmee: That would be all right. Pastor: And once again, if it gets approved, I don't want you to have to come back because you didn't do it. Lynn Marmee: Oh, no, no, no, that would never be a problem. If you approve it, we will do it. Pastor: Thank you. Sills: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: To the Petitioner, have you questioned other people that have had similar City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 51 March 19, 2013 situations with deer and what type of result they were getting after putting a fence up? Petitioner: No, I haven't. The only place that --- well, the only place we did look to was the Emanuel Community Farms on Nine Mile and Lahser. They had significant problems with deer and that's the reason they put up the fence, so that's deterred the deer for their project. Sills: How long have you been doing this gardening? Petitioner: We started this past summer. Sills: This past summer? Petitioner: Yes, it started around Memorial Day. Sills: so you don't really have a history of what have happened. Petitioner: No. Sills: Okay, thank you. Petitioner: Yes, sir. Henzi: Is there anyone else in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. Don Spurling: I'm Don Spurling, I'm at 34184 Haldane in Livonia and I'm the pastor of the church so I'll try and answer a few of the questions there. The one question on the 7-foot, what I understand is if it's lower than 7-foot they are able to see that. If it's a six or 5-foot, they are able to see that. But the 7-foot, as they look up they can't see the top of that and where that top is so that's why it has to be more than a 5-foot fence, so that's one of the reasons there. The percentage of what our loss was because I was out in the garden all the time, our loss was, I would say, around 15 percent, particularly in the tomatoes which were eaten right down, the tops right off. And that affected the quality of the fruit produced and also the size. So that's about everything I can tell you. Is there any other questions that you had that maybe I might have an answer for, that maybe you didn't get complete answers. Sills: I don't have any. Don Spurling: Okay, thank you. Henzi: Does anyone else want to speak for or against the project? Seeing no one else coming forward, can you read the letters? Caramagno: Diane Puroll at 20275 Parkville, sends a letter of approval (letter read). Michael Lukacs at 29109 Morlock writes an approval, (letter read). We have Walter Burger at 20229 Parkville, approval, (letter read). Scott Kostoff at 20223 Parkville, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 51 March 19, 2013 sends an approval. Mary Ann Bame at 29073 Morlock, sends an approval (letter read). Henzi: Sir, is there anything you'd like to say in closing? Petitioner: No thank you. Henzi: I'll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Sills. Sills: I don't have any particular problem with this, especially since they're going to construct the fence 60-feet in from the boundary line in one direction and 75-feet in from the other direction. I do know that deer are very destructive and they'll eat anything that's available including flowers and god knows - that's another story, I don't want to get into it. So I can support this project, I don't think it's going to hurt anybody. Henzi: Mrs. Mcintyre. Mcintyre: I'm in full support, I think it's tremendous what you're doing with your church, you know you've got a sustainable model, I always like to see sustainability and by that I mean I know there's an irrigation issue but you have some rent plots and that helps you subsidize your food bank. I think the project is well thought out. I'm very impressed by the efforts that you took to make sure you way exceeded what has to be done in order to let your neighbors know, there's not one piece of objection and you obviously covered the water front, if you will, so I'm in full support of allowing you to put up a deer fence and understand the reasons why 7-feet, they can't see where it ends, they won't jump it, so I have no objection to that and am in full support. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: This seems like a nice group effort by the church to do good through the community and that goes a long way I believe. This is probably a good idea here. It is an awful large piece of property, is it 6.9 acres? Petitioner: The actual vacant lot is 2 acres and the 140 by 160 that we're looking at is maybe just a little over a half an acre. Caramagno: Nevertheless, we've got a very, very large piece of property here. This is not a property screen from a borderline property, this would be in your property and I think it's going to help you achieve your needs if you keep those deer out of your garden so I will be in support. Petitioner: The nearest lot line is 60-feet away. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I do commend you for doing this for the local community, my heartburn is the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 51 March 19, 2013 height of the fence. I'm worried that if we allow you to have a permanent fence there we're going to have other people in the community requesting similar or even bigger fences so I know you're doing a lot of good for the community but I just don't know if I can support this. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I, too, will be in full support. I commend you very much for what you're doing in the community and to have a logical reason for the height, and again, we can make exceptions when there's a logical reason. The location again makes sense on the property as well so I'm in full support. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: I, too, will support this. This is the second church that's been before us with a project like this. I think that the placement is appropriate, the east side of the property line is tree lined, it doesn't affect any neighbors. It's significantly far from the north side property line, the south is commercial and the west is the church itself. You know, perhaps we can talk about a condition which is that it is as long as the program is operating. I wouldn't like to see the fence there in twenty years if it's not being used as a deer fence for a community garden. But other than that I think it's a great idea and I'll support it. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: So the floor is open for a motion. Upon motion by McCue, supported by Sills, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-03-08, Clarenceville United Methodist Church, 20300 Middlebelt, Livonia, Ml 48152, seeking to erect a seven foot tall coated open wire fence, used for deer protection, to surround a graden area located in the rear yard resulting in excess fence height. Fence Height Allowed: 4 feet Proposed: 7 feet Excess: 3 feet The property is located on the east side of Middlebelt (20300) between Morlock and Bretton, to be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the community and the church are losing significant amounts of food due to the deer eating out of the garden. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because the feeding will continue and the pantry will continue to lose food reducing the number of people that are able to be helped by the project. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 51 March 19, 2013 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because of the fact of the wide area of neighbor support and the location of the property. 4. The Board received four (4) letters of approval and no letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified as low density residential under the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the fence can be no higher than seven feet. 2. That the variance is good for six months. 3. That the fence will exist as long as the program continues. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: McCue, Sills, Mcintyre, Caramagno, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: Duggan Henzi: The variance is granted with three conditions, let me read them one more time. The fence can be no higher than 7 feet, it is to be used for the length of the community garden program, and that it's good for six months. This doesn't mean it expires in six months, it means you have six months within which to complete the construction. Petitioner: Okay, it's to be completed within six months. Henzi: And if there's any problem with that, you can talk to someone in the Inspection Department. Petitioner: Okay, thank you. Petitioner: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 51 March 19, 2013 APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-03-09: Franchise Realty, Int., 15399 Middlebelt, Livonia, Ml 48154, seeking to erect four wall signs and a replacement ground menu board sign resulting in excess number of wall signs, wall sign area, number of menu board signs and menu board area. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add to this case? DeMeyer: The Inspection Department has nothing to add at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Are there any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the representative come forward, please? Good evening. Representative: Hello. Patrick Stieber, 33650 Giftos Drive, Clinton Township, Michigan. So we're here tonight, another McDonald's within the city of Livonia w tthrough a remodel, reimage process. A few components to what we're asking for, the first thing is the drive-thru component of what this project entails and that entails putting in the double drive-thru with the menu boards. These menu boards are their standard menu boards, they're the same size as what's there now, same size as what's out there. They are standard. They've done their studies on it for that size to get the menu items on them, to get the traffic to flow through the drive-thru quickly and easily. We feel that, you know, that because these signs are just information type signs and they're used to get the traffic flow through the property, through the drive-thru, that there should not be any detrimental effects on the surrounding area, it's a definite hardship to get these menu items on these menu boards to get these traffic flows through. It's not corporate signage, we're not trying to get customers off the road to see these, you know it's strictly for the ordering point for the drive-thru. So that's the first main component of really what we're looking for. The drive-thru is a very crucial component to McDonald's business, you know they do 75 percent of their business through the drive-thru which shows how important these menu boards are to the business, to the traffic flows, to the safety around the property. So that's the gist of what we're asking for there. I don't know if you want to discuss that first before we move on or do you want to just move on? Henzi: Sure. Representative: Okay. So the second part of it obviously it's in regards to the building signage, you know, they are going to be doing a complete remodel of the building exterior, which then obviously entails new signage for the building. The entrance is going to be reconfigured a bit, you can see from the renderings that you have, you know the north facing elevation is the main entrance, that's the focal point entrance through the architecture of the new design, their branding, so to speak. And that location, we're asking for the standard McDonald's wall sign letter set. There's also there their standard branding that you see, the arch logo to the right of that on the corner of the wall, that will be the north elevation what we're asking for again, this is the main entrance elevation, that's why it's important to have the signage on the front elevation. Moving on to what would be the east elevation, the elevation facing Middlebelt Road, we are asking for additional signage on that elevation due to the traffic flows on Middlebelt Road and due to the fact that is the new design of the McDonald's building City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 51 March 19, 2013 and we want to get the corporate identification on that elevation as well. So, we have a feeling that there's a lack of identification, you know, due to the size of this building, the way that it's set back on the piece of property elongated across Middlebelt Road. Part of their standard sign package also includes the arch logo on the non-drive-thru side, you see that in your package. Now we've obviously been down this road before, you know with these signs, you know, I know what the expectation is from this Board, we've worked together on the last one to come up with a compromise on this so that's why we're here tonight, to see what we can do to get some additional signage for this project I would have to say that having the additional sign on the Middlebelt Road elevation, you know whether you will allow us to have the PlayPiace sign or the arch logo sign would be a very important thing to us to have that image on that elevation. But again we're here to talk about it and get your feedback. Henzi: Mr. Stieber, did you have the contract for the Seven and Farmington store? Representative: Yes, I was in front of this Board for that Henzi: And that wasn't so long ago for that and I have driven by that store to sort of refresh my memory and as I understand it so you're on the west elevation for this building, you just have the welcome with the arch, Seven and Farmington we didn't give the arch? Representative: Correct, correct, for non drive-thru side which would be, is that west or north of- Henzi: North. Representative: Yes, north, over at Farmington, no signage there. Henzi Then the drive-thru side did get an arch, I think we had, was there a PlayPiace there on the south? Representative: No, I thought we just eliminated the PlayPiace and went with the McDonald's sign and then the arch logo. McCue: You ended up with the two, correct? Representative: Yes. Henzi: And really this is a very similar structure, or renovation? Representative: Yeah, renovation is similar. You know, the only difference here is the fact that you know the layout of the building and the property is a lot different from over there. You know having the two signs on two different elevations in this situation would be a lot more beneficial to us in this situation. Henzi: The last question I think we all have is presently on the east elevation of this property there's already a McDonald's PlayPiace sign that's huge, it looks huge to me. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 51 March 19, 2013 What's the difference in the size of what exists now compared to what you want to put up there? Representative: What we're putting up, what we're proposing to put up is smaller in size, the square footage is smaller by about 18 square feet. The new PlayPiace signs when they designed them, they did design them smaller because of this issue right here and also how they fit in with the architecture in the building. So yes, it is. What they had over there on the east elevation it had PlayPiace McDonald's right next to it. The north elevation and what's existing there now, it wasn't conducive for signage the way that the architecture of the building was so that's why they had both on that elevation. But you know the major change in the architecture and the elements of the building, you know, having that McDonald's sign on the north main front entrance is crucial to the branding. Henzi: Well, and that brings up a good point and I thought of another thing. To be fair, the existing store doesn't have that monument sign and LED display like Seven and Farmington does, right? Representative: No, no. They have a road sign. Henzi: But not right in front of the only entrance? Representative: Right. Henzi: Compared to that other property. Representative: Yes. Henzi: Okay. Thanks very much. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I'm looking at these elevations and I see three M arches on the building? Representative: Yes, that's the standard drawing package, yeah, and it doesn't make sense, I'm not sure how they calculated that when they did this thing because it says four signs, and I'm wondering if --- Pastor: It's a lot more than four signs. Representative: Right. That's what I'm wondering, if the front, if the north, if the McDonald's with the logo they considered it one, you know, but we all know we're not getting four or you know five anyway. We know that that's not where we went the last time down this road. So you're right, it is an arch logo on the non drive-thru side which would be the west elevation, the opposite elevation east, and then north, yes. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 51 March 19, 2013 Pastor: Also, explain to me the difference between the existing signs and the new signage. Are you telling me that the existing sign on the examples, 54 square feet, and you're going down to 39 square feet; are you saying that that one big sign there and the new McDonald's sign is smaller, it's a little confusing to me. Representative: Yeah, no, I was talking about the PlayPiace lettering itself. Pastor: So the PlayPiace is smaller? Representative: Yes. Pastor: And the total square footage signage is going down? Representative; Absolutely, it would be, yes. Overall it is going to be more if we got all that we're proposing here. You know and you see what we did with our typical standard boxed, you know, McDonald's is always at a disadvantage with their logo with the boxing issue with all the blank space in there. I just have to say it again. It's a huge difference for what the actual is versus what the box square footage is. Pastor: Okay, go ahead. Henzi: Any other questions? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Let's go back, let's count these signs one more time here. You have the same package as us, right? Representative: Yes. Caramagno: I'm looking at six signs here. Where did you get the five from? Unless I'm missing something. I see a McDonald's and an M as one, two. Representative: Okay. Caramagno: PlayPiace and the M is three, four. The M and a welcome is five, six. Representative: Okay. The welcome is the only one I'm not thinking of then, yeah. Caramagno: So this thing says we're looking at four signs on the building, you're talking about five signs on the building, your package shows six signs on the building. Representative: Is the welcome letters, is that considered signage? Caramagno: You've got it in here as a sign, haven't you? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 51 March 19, 2013 Representative: Well, I think it was submitted as the whole thing. Caramagno: You call it a welcome sign with a measurement on it. It's your package, not mine. Representative: Okay. You see what I'm saying about that sign, though, it's not a corporate identification type sign. Caramagno: Okay. How about the two signs that are directional, enter and exit, I think there's two on Middlebelt? Representative: Yes, the directional type signs, yes. Caramagno: Are these part of this or are they considered directional and not part of the package? Representative: Yeah, they're not part of this, no. Caramagno: Okay. Can you see McDonald's on them? One of them looks like it's been refaced or something. Representative: It should just have the directional arrows, there might be an arch logo on it with the direction, I can't recall off the top of my head. But yeah, they are directional type signs. Caramagno: And then let me ask you this, the presell board and the outdoor menu board, are these two separate? Representative: Yeah, if you have your site plan in there, the menu boards are in the island area at the order points. The presell board is at the very front of the drive-thru turn. It's highlighted, I don't know if it's highlighted on yours or not. Caramagno: So before you split for the drive-thru lane? Representative: Yes. Caramagno: The presell board is that? Representative: Yes. Caramagno: Okay, thanks. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: For zoning don't we count all signs including directional signs as signage? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 51 March 19, 2013 DeMeyer: Normally we let the directional signage go if it doesn't have the logo, it's just a directional. Pastor: But if it has the logo it's signage? DeMeyer: Yes, generally, yes. Fisher: Well, the other thing is that wouldn't be wall signage anyhow, the directional signage would be ground signage. Pastor: It would be ground signage. Fisher: Right. Pastor: How many square feet is this menu board? Something doesn't seem right here. Because you're asking for two ground menu boards, right? Representative: Right. Pastor: And then a presell board, you're only asking for one presell? Representative: Yeah, one presell. Pastor: Because normally you'd have a presell on the island? Representative: Yeah, they don't do that, they try to get it before the split, so yeah, there is just one presell. Pastor: The square footage it seems like is going to be more than what - I don't know. Representative: Of the menu boards or the presell? Pastor: Yes, the menu boards. Is that 40 square feet all for one sign? Representative: No. Pastor: How much are each one of these signs, square footage? Representative: Well, each panel you mean or the overall? Pastor: Overall. Representative: The overall, four foot tall times 103.5 inches wide, 40.96 square feet. Pastor: Yes, times two, that's 80 square feet. Plus, you have your presell board. McCue: It would be 82 plus 8. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 51 March 19, 2013 Pastor: Right. McCue: That's what you're saying? Pastor: Yes. So you've got 90 square feet proposed and our iteration says 41. So the Notice isn't correct. Representative: Forty-one. Pastor: You've got two signs of 41 square feet and one sign at 8. Representative: Okay. Pastor: Forty-one and forty-one is 82, plus 8 is 90 square feet is what you're asking for. Representative: Okay. Pastor: Our write-up says you're proposing 41 square feet. Representative: Yeah, that write-up is--- Pastor: Incorrect. Representative: Obviously. Henzi: Yes, your excess is 60, not 11. Sills: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Sills, you had a question? Sills: I was - on the signage where it says that play area, whatever it says, what elevation of the building is that on, the PlayPiace? Representative: It's being proposed on the east facing Middlebelt Road. Pastor: On the same side of the building as the existing. Sills: And the first picture we have McDonald's, that's facing north? Representative: Yeah, the main entrance one is north. This one? Sills: Yes. Representative: Yes, that's the north. Sills: That's facing north? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 51 March 19, 2013 Representative: Yes. Sills: I was misinterpreting it, I was thinking that the PlayPiace was on the south of the building but it's not. Representative: Yes. There's no signage on the south, you know that's basically just the drive-thru back there. Sills: The menu boards, if I could make a comment, every time I drive through McDonald's, I get behind someone that wants to read everything on the menu, especially when I'm in a hurry. Mcintyre: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Mcintyre. Mcintyre: Just another comment. Whether you use the box square footage or the extra square footage, it doesn't, no pun intended, with what we have as the wall sign area and our package says that the proposed is 78 square feet, if you go by the box, it's 108, right, which is what we go by. Representative: I'm sorry? Mcintyre: I'm sorry. The Public Notice reads that the proposed square footage that you're asking for totals 78 square feet, your rendering shows that you're actually asking for 108 square feet, so again, something. Representative: I didn't do- you know, we just did the submittal. Henzi: Mr. Fisher, is there a problem there with the Public Notice or how should we proceed? Fisher: Well, you can proceed with what the Public Notice says. If we're going to discuss a greater quantities of signage than this, then no, we need to reschedule. Henzi: Yes, Mr. Stieber, that's a problem. The public thinks that you're proposing for an additional 11 square feet, for example for the menu board sign, but what you submitted is actually 60 square feet excess. It's not your fault, the problem is theoretically there could be somebody in the neighborhood that would say I would have come and complained if I knew they were going to be 180 square feet over on wall sign, I let it slide because they were only going to be in excess 36. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Mcintyre, it was: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 51 March 19, 2013 RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-03-09: Franchise Realty, Int., 15399 Middlebelt, Livonia, Michigan, 48154, seeking to erect four wall signs and a replacement ground menu board sign resulting in excess number of wall signs, wall sign area and menu board area. Number of Wall Signs Allowed: One Proposed: Four Excess: Three Wall Sign Area Allowed: 42 sq. ft. Proposed: 78 sq. ft. Excess: 36 sq. ft. Menu Board Sign Area Allowed: 30 sq. ft. Proposed: 41 sq. ft. Excess: 11 sq. ft. The property is located on the west side of Middlebelt (15399) between Five Mile and Wentworth, be tabled so that the Public Notice can be rewritten so that the square footage on the signs can be corrected. ROll CAll VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Mcintyre, McCue, Sills, Caramagno, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: None Henzi: April 23'd is the next day, call Bonnie before April 2nd and Randy is the guy to talk to. Representative: Yes, so we should talk to him to make sure he's got it all right? Henzi: Right. McCue: Mr. Chair, also I think the number of wall signs, that should be corrected. Henzi: We didn't consider the welcome as one. Representative: Yeah, something like that had to have happened and we will make sure that he gets the correct information. Mcintyre: And also, we should ask for clarification on the directional signs or is that a different part of the package because they're ground signs. Fisher: I think directional is typically not with the ground signs where you're talking about wall signs and the menu board thing is generic to restaurants and that is existing so that's why you just put that on. Representative: All right. Thanks for your time. I'll see you next month. Page 20 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 h APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-03-10: Todd Davis, 15900 Hubbard, Livonia, Ml, 48152, seeking to maintain a six foot tall wood privacy fence within the side yard which is not allowed. Privacy fencing of any height may not be located in the side yard. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add to this? DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for Dennis? Hearing none, good evening, sir. Petitioner: Good evening Board members. Henzi: Could you tell us your name and address? Petitioner: Todd Kevin Davis, 15900 Hubbard Road, Livonia, Michigan. Henzi: Sir, tell us why you want a privacy fence in the side yard. Petitioner: As some of you know that were here two years ago almost, right about this same time of year, I have an ongoing and has escalated since our last time here, with just my privacy, my usage of my yard. I'm a single dad with a five and a half year old and a four year old son that I raise by myself in that big house and it's a large house if any of you have passed it and I'm sure you've seen pictures from our last meeting. And it's come to the point that my- it's- I don't even want to go, I have all the minutes from things but I really don't want to rehash it and get into all that, but my hardship is that little piece of side yard that I want enclosed and be able to maintain that is a lower, it's my son's playroom lower window which is right off the ground. And next to that is a lower family room window, that's the area I want enclosed. Some of you know that my neighbors and I have had some problems here and since the last time we met, I don't know if some or all of these cameras were aimed at my house, but now there's additional cameras aimed at my house and I brought for each one of you to have, since our last meeting I know for a fact has been convicted of a misdemeanor on me in 161 District Court, under Judge Brzezinski through Mike Fisher dealing with Mr. Trotter's attorney. I just want to get along. I just want to enjoy my house. I am not enjoying my house, I'm sick about it. I don't use my backyard. Now this plan of maybe continuing my fence down, I go to Rotary Park, I'll got to the Rec complex, I do not use my backyard at all. This is the last little side of privacy that I can have because on the whole side of my house where that fence issue is is now under high tech surveillance with big cameras aimed at my house. Every move I make, it doesn't matter what it is, it's being watched. I just had the Inspection Department, I mean this goes from one thing to another, the Inspection Department was out there the other day because my neighbor here says that I am bringing home big jobs that I do, which I don't own a big business like I used to, and I have Waste Management who's working for me on the side and they're hauling big vast amounts of garbage from my house. So Tom Daly came out, said he got another complaint, and I said why not, comes weekly, comes bi-monthly, whatever, what is it, he told me. It happened to be garbage day the next day. I said would you come back out on garbage day for the next few weeks, take Page 21 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 some pictures, maybe talk to Waste Management. It just so happened when he came back out Waste Management drove down the street, there's the drivers, I said you guys, this is Tom Daly, the inspector, can you explain to him what you haul from my house. I've hauled this man's garbage for years, we haul no more, no less than anybody else's regular household garbage. And he looked out, Mr. Daly and said, is this his neighbor again? I have brought more letters from my neighbors, I could fill this room with 100 people. During that misdemeanor conviction it now has escalated to not just my backyard, not just what I do, it was taken down the street and a bunch of moms waiting for their kids at the bus stop on Hubbard that were standing behind the bushes as this verbal onslaught towards me who I was visiting some friends, was seen and then that was the end of that. They all decided they wanted to get involved. They got subpoenaed, Mike subpoenaed them, they came in. Basically I felt bad that my neighbors were even coming in and wasting any time on this. So I went into Mike's office, I said maybe we can just handle this because I would like to see them all go to work where they belong, they don't belong sitting there, it's ridiculous. The whole thing of it is, my whole life is one phone call of this, that or the other thing, digital cameras. I come home in my driveway, within seconds a garage door will come open. I highlighted some of the minutes and some of the stuff that was said that it is ironic almost two years later about you know, I'll just read a couple things because it really and I would like this just to be passed around, if you guys could just take one, it's a copy of the conviction, the misdemeanor. And as I got that and Judge Brzezinski was coming in for Sean Kavanagh that day, he said is Mr. Davis in the audience? I said yes, I am. He went up there and says come on up here. He said I want you to hear this. He says, he goes Mr. Trotter, you are not to text him, email him, talk to him, and gave him this whole long list of things he's not to do. Do you understand that? Yes, I do. He said do you understand by pleading no contest here today, that is the polite way of telling me you're guilty? Uh-huh. And that was the last time I've had really, that was gut wrenching. But in some of these minutes going back, nothing's changed, it's just gotten worse. So, thinking of making changes to my yard, do I cohabitate? There's no cohabitating. pull in my driveway, I go right in my front door, that's it. And I live in my house with my two little kids. And you know some of the stuff that they get to enjoy that was on the minutes about they like their privacy or they like their seven foot fence and this and that or this and that about their privacy, that's fine. I have no privacy because I've asked now the Police Department, I've asked other areas in the City Attorney's office, and I've also asked the Ordinance, can I- is it- can somebody just do this, can somebody film me? And at one point in these minutes, I'm not going to thumb through them, the comment was made that a lot of your pictures show elevation, meaning like you're standing on your roof. I've had my family, my granddaughter, my grandchildren, and I have five grandchildren and I have two little sons that have been- all of a sudden you look up he's on his roof with a video camera. I seriously do not talk. I ignore, I'm a horse with blinders and I'm not enjoying my house. I've lived here my whole life, I'm about ready to move. I cannot take it any longer. So my hardship, putting that up, is for my privacy and when the bushes grow in to that one and only area, that my house is not fortificated, you know, fenced in, and has only two lower windows, okay, and I seriously just feel like I'm always being watched and that's a very, a very dark area when the foliage grows in, it's two lower windows. And again, I've got a big house, two little boys, I'm not making any accusations, but my hardship is to give me peace Page 22 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 of mind that if I want to open those windows at night on a summer night and let cool air come in, that everything else in my whole yard is either fenced in or I have a dog that's in this area over here that will bark at a squirrel at night, and I feel comfortable and I feel good once I'm in my house. My windows don't come open, my shades don't come open. In these minutes it says there's all these shades and I stare at the house. Stare at the house. My shades are never opened and I have three digital cameras aimed at my house constantly. So I would think that my hardship of my privacy and also of all the things that were in the previous minutes of me saying, you know, of the comments I made and now someone finally took it to light and it took a lot of police officers, it took some detectives to actually listen to it and went forward, and it finally took a conviction on a simple assault, verbal, gesturing and this and that, however it's worded in that report, it's no way to live neighborly. I've also made comments that since 1980 I bought my first house here right near Handi-Dip, I've been a Livonia resident in five different houses in this City, I've gone to Kennedy Elementary, Front Junior High, Bentley High School, I coach kids T-ball around here, I'm really affiliated with the Livonia Cares Program that this Clarenceville United Methodist actually is where I grew up at, my life is my kids' school and that's about it. And all I want to do is enjoy my house and feel I have some privacy and that I think that in itself is a substantiated hardship beyond what I need to meet the burden of proof on hardship. Henzi: Can we talk for a second about exactly what fence are we talking about? BjOlcause I know you've got a privacy fence on the north and south side. Petitioner: Yes, sir. Henzi: But here we're talking only about the parts that face and come east from the back of the house towards the front, right, on the north side? Petitioner: It's on the south side. And it's just connected to an existing fence that's been there for--- I don't know, fifteen, seventeen years, that stopped at the corner of the house and went over the boundary line and went all the way down to the very east part, eastern part of the back property line. So all I did was put three sections, okay, not even near the boundary line. I had talked to my neighbor about it. So three sections and just enclosed my two lower windows, the playroom and the family room. Henzi: So last time we allowed the privacy fence and I remember that you had, I mean towards the backyard on the side that was where kids' toys were and things like that, does that sound familiar or do I have that mixed up? Petitioner: That was his fence, that was the fence that was in, I think they--- it wasn't my fence. Henzi: So what you've done since a few years ago is bring the privacy fence towards the front of the house like you've described, to cover the two windows. Petitioner: I covered two windows. Every other fence has been permitted, it's been there for fifteen or more years, I didn't add any other fence. The chain link fence at Page 23 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 the very east part of my property has been there since way before I moved in that house. And the other--- the boundary line that me and Mr. Trotter share, has nothing to do with any fences that were put up because I didn't put those fences up. That's why we were here last time on the variance for Mr. and Mrs. Trotter. Henzi: Got it. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I thought the Trotters were on the other side of the house? Petitioner: They are. Pastor: So what does this have to do with the Trotters, how can they have a camera from the other side of the house surveilling this area? Petitioner: They don't have a camera filming that side of the area, but every time I turn around, he is everywhere. If he came down the street and went completely crazy enough to get five mothers, a police officer that happened to be driving down Hubbard, another young man that didn't know, an 80-year old couple to join in and come in and want to be witnesses and it's now being taken down the street. And an inspector told me one day and I won't get into names, can I come in your front door? I don't even want to go over there. Can I come in your front door, go in your house and look out your side windows to see what we're talking about this time? I said no problem. So, the thing of it is, is that those two lower windows --- this is what I live with every day. You might not--- no one should feel like this, but I don't think that anybody would say --- how would you feel if you came home every day and you knew there was a camera on you? I'm not doing anything wrong, I could care less, but I don't enjoy my yard, every time I come home. If I go in the backyard, I could be there 30 seconds and his back garage door comes up. I have people and letters and I have people here tonight that will tell you if their son was cutting my grass, a 12-year old kid coming and cutting my grass, he will come out and sit and watch him. I could bring --- tonight I could have filled this place with people that will tell you stories of what goes on at my household. I cannot do anything. I can pull a garage sale permit, the police will be at my house in a matter of seconds. I have to stop, show them my permit. I have to talk to them and then they say carry on. Terry the City Clerk, she knows the whole story, okay, it's ridiculous. So it's not just so much about it's on the other side, but why would they call in on me if I was doing that, why would they --- if it is on the other side, why would they call in. My dog lives on the other side of my house, they brought Animal Control out until finally Animal Control said we're not going to write a ticket, a citation and we think you're teasing his dog so we told him to get a video camera and stick it out there because we think you're teasing his dog, don't call us anymore. That was three years ago. Pastor: What is your profession? Remind me. Page 24 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 Petitioner: I'm self employed. Pastor: What do you do? Petitioner: Handyman work. Pastor: Building? Petitioner: Just anything handyman. Pastor: Do you pull permits for your stuff? Petitioner: Pardon me? Pastor: Do you pull permits for everything you do, most things you do? Petitioner: Yeah. Pastor: So why didn't you pull a permit for this fence, you know you needed to. Petitioner: I did but I kept going to say, can anybody help me out to have the quality of living I need here? Pastor: Well, no, stop, before you go on. You say you pulled a permit? Petitioner: No, I did not. Pastor: But you know you had to? Petitioner: Yes. But I guess the reason that I'm not going to argue it, that fence was rotted and attached so when I went down there and got written, I said the fence that I put up, this is why I wasn't going to argue this, I wasn't going to bring it up tonight, that fence that I put up was rotted and I repaired it. So instead of getting into a big argument and saying well, you know, I guess we could do this, we could call the previous owner, have him sign a notarized piece of paper saying he put the fence up in 1970 or whatever, instead I said to Mike, fine. I'll pull a permit, I'll go to the Zoning Board and try to get a variance, I'm not going to go that way, I don't want to argue no more. It was a repair. And if my fence is 400-feet long, I get to repair 10 percent per year, I think. Pastor: That may be but this is not 400-feet long, this section of fence. Petitioner: Okay. Pastor: So your neighbor lives on the other side as I recall, obviously there's lots of problems there, what's the fence have to do with ---do you have shades on your house? I mean I can see in the pictures you have drapes in your windows, so how is he seeing through the drapes? Page 25 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 Petitioner: Well, he doesn't because I don't open them. And I don't even come out my side door. Pastor: So, why do we need this fence here if you don't open your windows? Petitioner: Because they're lower windows and I would like to be able to open my windows and my drapes on that lower unit in my kids' playroom and utilize a part of y house that doesn't face his. Because if I utilize the part of the house that faces his, there's three cameras aimed at it. Pastor: You say they're lower, how high off the ground are they? Petitioner: The bottom of the windows are probably about 20 some inches off the ground. Pastor: So you're saying, you're telling me these windows are about 7-foot tall? Because the middle of the window is above the fence from the camera angle I can see. Petitioner: That's the top of the window. I mean, I'd like to --- I don't have the photo with me, I don't have it, but it's very close to the ground, okay, 30 inches, it's not far off the ground. Pastor: If I surmise the top of the fence hits at the half, you put it down below there it had to be three or four feet off the ground easily. But it's hard to see behind the fence. I can see half your window, there's a drape there through the window it looks like. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? I have a couple. Believe me, I get it, that there's a neighbor dispute here but I'm a little confused, I want to go back to the video cameras. The Trotters live on the north side, right? Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: Do you have any problems with the neighbors on the south side? Petitioner: No, not at all. Henzi: So, the cameras aren't pointed at the area in question. The cameras are pointed you claim from Trotters house to the north side of your house? Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: So, for that and for other reasons you like to utilize the south side of your house, it also happens to be where the kids' playroom is, so you like to devote attention to that side where it's a little more peaceful, and that's the side that you're covering up. Page 26 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 Petitioner: And it also has when it grows in a canopy of bushes that are probably 40 years old, grows over and creates a little tunnel in there and to be honest with you, after this misdemeanor and having it go way down Hubbard, not just in our backyards anymore, all the way down the street, park in the middle of the street, getting out of his vehicle parked in the middle of the street, I don't trust him, I don't know what he's capable of. But obviously he went outside the box so now it's not just yelling over the fence or videotaping me from his roof or cameras aimed at me. Henzi: All right, I get it. When you first started your presentation, I was led to believe that you put the fence up because he's got a camera pointed at your son's bedroom. That's not the case? Petitioner: No, it's not the case. Henzi: If the south side is the peaceful side, why does that need to be covered up from the house in the back? That's what I'm not clear on. I mean I can't imagine, the good --- what you would call the good neighbor on the south side, lets Mr. Trotter come into his yard. Petitioner: He doesn't have to come in anybody's yard, you can walk right up 40 feet of my grass and walk right up to those windows if that fence isn't there. And there's a canopy like this, you could come in there, anybody could come in there and get in there. It's a dark side and the fence stops, and there's another piece of fence that stops twenty feet back, it's a little cove. Henzi: I don't know why that area needs to be fenced in if the Trotters are the problem. Petitioner: To just give me some peace of mind knowing that, you know, I can come in my front door, open up these windows, fall asleep at night, I have nothing to worry about. I mean I don't--- it's you know what you guys don't live like this so maybe you can't appreciate what I'm going through and I know the camera thing and this and that and the whole situation. But it gives me peace of mind that I'm securing two lower windows, I have a very large house, I don't trust somebody that's gone to this extent to make me their pet project and get convicted in our courtroom, okay. Henzi: What does the neighbor to the south side say? Petitioner: Well, Mr. Trotter went over there and has had the City come over there and has tried starting problems saying I'm dumping dog poop and concrete in his yard. So I had to bring Steve Banko over there finally after two years of the same thing - Henzi: That's not what I'm asking. What did the south side neighbors say about it? Petitioner: He says he's totally cool with it, okay, I didn't ask him to come in here tonight because he's older or he would have. He wrote a letter. He wrote a letter here. You guys have the letter. And I have a bunch more letters from other Page 27 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 neighbors. Henzi: That you brought tonight? Petitioner: Yes, sir. Henzi: Can you pass them around so we will read them all. Okay. Any other questions? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Todd, how many windows in the front of your house do you have that people can look in and see you? How many windows in front of your home? I don't recall. Petitioner: Two on the porch and one to the side of the porch. Caramagno: So you've got two that are open to the public to drive by and look at? Petitioner: My windows are never open, my windows are - Caramagno: They're out there for the public to drive by up and down Hubbard Road and look at your home. These two windows on the side, on the south side, is there two there? Petitioner: Yes. Caramagno: Okay, it looks like two. All right. So those are facing the south side of your property, you want to encompass them in a fence, is it so your dog can patrol the house and watch your sons as well? Petitioner: Yes, because my dog has and Animal Control has seen the whole thing, my dog--- Caramagno: So your dog can keep an eye on everything, the south side of your house, the north side of your house, the east side of your house, the only thing that can't be controlled by your animal is the Hubbard side? Petitioner: Exactly. Caramagno: So what makes the Hubbard side less important than the south side for the dog to be able to patrol? Petitioner: Because we sit so close to the street, okay, my windows are --- I have really good windows in the house, the windows don't get unlocked, okay, and I keep my blinds down because for one thing when it gets dark out early in the winter or it's dark out Page 28 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 anytime, headlights coming down Rayburn are right shone in my windows, it's been like that for 40 years. Those windows stay closed, shaded, and that's the way they've been. Caramagno: I understand that. Now the windows back on the south side, it's a privacy protection issue for you? Petitioner: Yes, yes, it is. Caramagno: I've got nothing else right now. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: So why didn't you ask for a privacy fence in the front of your house, too? Petitioner: Pardon me? Pastor: Why didn't you ask for a privacy fence in the front of your house, too? You've got windows there, too, he can climb on your porch and look in? Petitioner: I'm trying to explain, I know you have a picture, Craig. On the side, right now it's a little bit more visible but when the foliage grows in- Pastor: I can see that. Petitioner: It just creates a little tunnel. Pastor: So why don't you put a chain link fence instead and you wouldn't be here? You may be here but you wouldn't be getting this kind of questioning. Now, if you used a four foot chain link fence your dog could still patrol that area? Petitioner: Well, my dog would probably, that's why I have the six foot fence and six foot dog run is because my dog could jump over it. It's a larger German Shepard and I don't want anybody that's walking down the street with a four-foot chain link fence and my dog sees them and you know it's a German Shepard, it's a nice dog but might see something and jump over it. Might see a squirrel and jump over it and get killed on Hubbard. It's not ugly, it's not invasive. My neighbors, every neighbor, okay, but maybe two that I know about it, have no problems. And it doesn't stick out, it stays back just the side of the corner, it's a side yard. I don't have cameras facing on the other side and we agreed on a side yard fence on Mr. Trotter's two years ago and there was no hardship there at all. And I was the first person to say fine, because I looked at it in the last week and highlighted and said I don't care about the side yard fence, let him have it. Sills: I don't think this should be handled by the Zoning Board of Appeals. This is a case of intimidation and the privacy fence wouldn't begin to solve the problem. I think it should be turned over to a different authority. What do you think, Mike? Page 29 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 Fisher: Well, in the sense a different authority is court, it's already been there. I don't know where else this can go. But this specific issue obviously is a privacy fence or no privacy fence is right where it belongs. Sills: All we should be ruling on would be the privacy fence itself? Fisher: Correct. Sills: And nothing else. Fisher: Right. Sills: And I sympathize with the way he's living, with the torment he's going through, but we don't have any say-so over that. Fisher: Well, that's true. Petitioner: And if I might add something. I'm not asking for- since in the last two years I haven't complained about the program, the fence got changed around, everything. I mind my own business, I don't even come back and say you know what, it really wasn't even fulfilled you guys, but I could care less. All I really wanted to do was enjoy my house. And I think that I showed a hardship here as a good resident, as a good bothering anybody but giving me some peace of mind with my two little boys and a big, big home. I mean, that's all I'm asking. It's not bothering anybody. It's not--- it's not--- it's not sticking out like a sore thumb. It's not intrusive. It's not - the neighbor next door, I'm not even close to the property line. I have another 400 feet right behind it that goes all the way back that's the exact same fence. My dog now can be one complete part of that whole side of the house. It gives me some privacy, some comfort and some safety in my mind that I feel better about living at my house. I don't think it's too much to ask. Henzi: Why isn't the foliage good enough or why couldn't you just put up arborvitae along that side, wouldn't that do the trick? Petitoner: I really do want to --- I would like to have my dog be encompassed in the other 400 and some foot fence, the 100 foot dog run that's six feet tall, the chain link, and the whole side of the house and my dog can be there and it won't be able to get out as part of that and it protects that entire side of the house and whether it be goofy sounding to you guys, it would just really, really make me feel better. Henzi: Mr. Davis, we started, I think it was 7:45, it's 8:20 and you finally let us know what this is all about and after 35 minutes. It's about the dog, you want the dog to be able to roam the south side of the property all the way up to the house, right? Petitioner: Not really because it's only this far, it's this little piece. I want to be able to open my windows and know that I have the safety and the privacy that I can use. Page 30 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 Henzi: And shrubs won't do it, you have to have the fence because you're afraid the dog is going to jump over the shrubs, right? Petitioner: No, because if there was no shrubs, if there was no fence, the dog would stay where it's at now. Henzi: Then why do we need the fence? I'm with you. You seem like a nice guy, you're committed to the City, I get it. You tell me you need a second panel on the north side because there's so much contention, I get it. Petitioner: I just stay on that side. Henzi: For thirty minutes you're telling us that there's cameras pointed and it's really about a dog. Petitioner: No, it's not about the dog. I'd get rid --- I would get rid of the dog, I would get rid of the dog before I would want to get rid of this fence. Why don't we read some of the letters from some of the people? Henzi: So why do you need the fence instead of shrubs? If you're trying to block out so nobody can look in --- Petitioner: It's not nobody, it not nobody. I don't have any problems but one person and I don't trust this man any longer. Henzi: Do you think he'd walk through Arborvitaes? Petitioner: Did I think that he'd come down three quarters of a mile down Hubbard, park his truck in the middle of broad daylight and what he flipped out on gave him enough in thirty minutes to get him convicted of a misdemeanor? No, I never thought that. Henzi: In response, do you think he would walk through Arborvitaes to come within 10 feet of your house? Petitioner: I don't--- I don't---- at this point I don't put anything past him. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: I had an inspector tell me that he waited one day, was driving down the road, and he followed him from stop to stop to stop. And again, I'm not going to go through - it's the same inspector that came into my house. It was the same inspector that came into my house and said he doesn't feel comfortable going over there to inspect something, can I come in your front door and look out your window? That same inspector told me one day he pulled down Hubbard, his truck was sitting in the driveway and as soon as he went and he followed him and he went to his first three stops and parked behind him and watched him. I don't put things past this and that's why I would like a fence. Page 31 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 Henzi: Okay. Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, then come on up to the table. Baker: Hi. Henzi: Hi. Baker: I'm Dana Baker and our family is friends with Todd's family, my kids have done a lot of yard work with Todd to earn a few dollars here and there. I've babysat his kids when their parents broke up and he gained custody of his kids. I have five children, all boys, they've all done work for Todd and they've all experienced being watched and their privacy being --- feeling intimidated and feeling violated while they were doing work by their neighbor on the other side of the fence, on the other side of the house. There are cameras up in the windows. I know, I know if there were cameras over my house all the time, if I had a small section of my house that I could feel protected in, it would be a huge thing for me. Just like Todd said, peace of mind. The neighbor had --- I've seen the neighbor stand outside and stare at my children while they work. I've seen the neighbor stare at me while I've done things, yard sales and things like that. The neighbor has aggressively drove his truck and almost hit one of my sons at one point. I don't know why he's allowed to behave this way without any kind of penalty at all. I know that I would be afraid and I've babysat late at night, I would be afraid that he would even walk up to that side of the house. So I think that Todd should be able to keep the fence, it gives him peace of mind. Henzi: What's your address, ma'am, for our record? Baker: I used to live around the corner from him, I've recently moved. I'm at 37778 Ladywood. Henzi: But you used to live around the corner from him? Baker: On Fairfield, yes. Henzi: Okay. Baker: I just want to say, I'm a mom and he's a single dad. He's got two little tiny kids, you know, four and five years old and he never opens his windows in his house. He never keeps his front door open because that man is out there all the time watching. He'll just stand out there, he'll sit in his truck. He even sat in his truck and watched my son mow the lawn. He has followed my others, stood outside there watching my kid, mow the whole front and the entire back which takes hours and just stood out there. I don't know, I don't blame Todd for wanting to have that one little area fenced in so that he can feel that he can open up his windows and just have a nice breeze come in there without having to worry about anybody coming in there without having to worry about anybody walking up in the dark, I think that he should be able to keep it. I would want you to tell me that I could keep it if it were my house. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? Page 32 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 Petitioner: If I could say one more thing? Henzi: Is there anybody else? Petitioner: Oh, I'm sorry. Henzi: I think there may be a couple more. Petitioner: I'm sorry. Martin: Hello, folks. How are you? Henzi: Good evening. Martin: I'm going to pull up a chair, not that it's going to be long but I've got a bad knee. Christopher Martin, 12275 Inkster Road. I like to go to these meetings. Let me just say I don't know much about the conflict between the neighbors but I do know a lot about fencing. The first case that was here, 7 foot fence, just for the book, great loss of vegetables with the deer, great loss of vegetables. Try to put yourself in that type of environment, one neighbor against another like that. Fences do make good neighbors. You were trying to lead I think Todd on to if he would enclose that one area then your dog could be there and protect your house and that's a good idea. I thought there was some ridiculous questions that were answered. Maybe the church could put Arborvitae around their garden but this guy paid 150 bucks to come here and get a decision so I think he's entitled to one. So I'd be in favor of the fence or whatever he wants to do just to keep peace between the two neighbors. That's it. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? Okay, Mr. Davis, go ahead. Petitioner: You asked me a question do I think he would come up to my front windows, my side door? I've called the police so many times that even in the middle of broad daylight come up, spray paint my driveway. I submitted these photos two years ago. Drive rebar on my grass, okay, with a bottle of beer in his hand and tell me that's the new boundary line. The police come, what do you want me to do? I called for three days, nine different officers until finally this one guy goes take this PPO, go downtown, this is ridiculous because this is no way to live. This is over two years ago, two and a half years ago. I spend nine and a half hours down there with these little boys, okay, who were two years younger, okay, little guys down there. Don't touch that, hands off that, just sitting there where I don't even want to be. The Court extends, nine and a half hours I'm down there. Do you know that I got told that the PPO system was not meant for why I was sent down there and everybody else got approved that day but me. I was so bummed out. You guys don't even understand, okay, I'm 54 years old raising these kids. Some of you people -- - I know a few of you know me, okay, and I know some of you know my friends. And I know some of you know some of my grandkids, okay. I love kids. I sit on school boards here at Head Start. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back. Kids have a big place in my heart, especially my own little boys in my own house. I don't understand what the Board with all I've been through, I shut my mouth, I don't do nothing, I don't retaliate, all I try to do is go through the system and all I want is Page 33 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 to have some peace of mind in my house that I pay big money for every month on taxes alone, okay, and I don't think it's that big of a deal, okay, to want me to enjoy my house, okay. I've given this City everything I've had and tried to help people and tried to always be a good citizen and a good neighbor. And right now what I'm asking for I don't feel that- I think I've proved my hardship. I'm done. Henzi: Is Mr. Trotter here? Trotter: Yes. Henzi: Okay. Can you read the letters? Pastor: Mr. Fisher, did you talk to this person and tell him he could put his fence up? kind of got the information from him when he said he was going to put it up and come here later. Did you have ever have a conversation --- Fisher: No, I never told Todd or anybody else that you can put a fence up without a permit, in fact, he knew the rules and he should have gone for the permit first, there's no question about that. Pastor: Well, no question that he knew that he had to come here first? Fisher: I'm very sure of that. Petitioner: I knew that. I didn't have $150 at the time, I've been struggling. I spent a lot of money in Wayne County, it took me two years to get custody of my kids, okay, a man just doesn't get custody of his kids and I spent everything, sold everything, took everything to get custody of my kids. I didn't even have $150 and Barbara Scherr said you've got to post bond at 10% of 100 bucks when I was down in the Magistrate room, I looked at her and I go, I brought myself here, I've got to pay 100 bucks today? She said yes. I said I don't have it, Ms. Scherr, don't have it. Bring it back in nine days. I didn't have $150 bucks to do it the right way but when it comes down to it and all these things are going on daily, monthly, weekly, this is who I'm - no matter what - this is who I'm going to do the right thing for, sorry. So I do know the rules. I'm not --- I'm not --- I'm not acting like I'm ignorant, stupid, I know all the rules. And yes, I should have done it. I didn't even have the 150 bucks to come here for a variance. I scraped it up just in time to get it in so I could have this meeting before my court case going back to pretrial in Judge McCann's courtroom if this does get a variance. Pastor: What is your court date for? Petitioner: I asked for a continuance because I went in there and said I've been talking and letting them know that I finally got enough money to go to the Zoning Board, could I please have an adjournment so I can come into the Zoning Board, do it the right way, I have my 150 bucks. Then I was asked for my 100 bucks that day and I said if I add it to that, I would have had my 150 bucks even sooner but I was able to get in here tonight, they got me in. They adjourned it and I'm hoping that I'm going to get my variance so I can go back and say listen, I'll pay my permit, my fines, my fees, whatever, okay, and Page 34 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 end this thing. I don't come around too often and I don't ask for things and this is something that I was getting no help from anybody no matter what anybody told me to do. I talked to the police, I talked to this person, go the Zoning, go to there, the only thing I knew what to do, I didn't have the money for. Fisher: In answer to your question, Mr. Pastor, he was charged with violating the Fence Ordinance. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Do you want to read the letters? Caramagno: We have a letter in support from Christine Sorenson, (letter read), 15644 Hubbard. We've got a letter from Sue Madgwick at 15331 Fairfield, in support, (letter read). We have a letter here from Ellen Cook at 15575 Mayfield, (letter read), in support. Roger Little, 28666 Bayberry, (letter read), in support. Dana Baker at 37778 Ladywood, (letter read), in support. We have an approval from Olivia Neamt at 15909 Hubbard. We have Richard Chippa, 15915 Hubbard, sends an approval. Jerome Agrusa at 15661 Hubbard, (letter read), approval. William Galvan of 15645 Hubbard writes an approval (letter read). And Ronald Miesowicz at 15604 Hubbard sends an objection (letter read). That's it. Henzi: Mr. Davis, is there anything you want to say in closing? Petitioner: No, sir. Henzi: Thank you. I'll close the public portion and begin the Board's comments with Mrs. Mcintyre. Mcintyre: It seems to me that we were really here for an adjudication tonight , there's a lot of issues that don't concern us. I understand why you want a privacy fence. The street is not a typical subdivision, understanding there are extenuating circumstances, given the number of letters of support, although it seems that most of them were written by people who are not neighbors, that are on streets that were not around your area. But most of the ones from the people that are in your neighborhood are in support, so I will support this. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno:? Caramagno: Yes, you certainly have support in your letters, although I agree not all are neighbors but the most important neighbor here is I think the one to the side and we don't see any complaint from that neighbor and that's the one that this impacts as much as anybody other than you. The drama is incredible but if this helps you feel private and have more privacy in your yard, I'll support. Henzi: Mr. Pastor? Page 35 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 Pastor: Typically I would not support something like this, especially since the resident knew he needed the permission first, he knew he needed a permit and he just did it anyways. But in this particular case I believe I can support a fence. Henzi: Mrs. McCue? McCue: I'm kind of going with what Mr. Pastor said, the thing that always concerns me that this is something you built, you knew what the Ordinance was, you did it anyways, you know, I get all of that. There are a lot of people that have a lot of financial situations and I get that situation. I guess considering the fact that the neighbor to the south is okay with that and truly you've obviously indicated that it is going to give you peace of mind, all of those things considered I really don't think this is what is going to solve your problems, but if you feel that that is so important to you then I will be in support of this. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Sills? Sills: I agree with the comments that were made by Betsy just a few minutes ago, I don't think your problem will be solved but I'm going to let my heart overrule my mind and go along with you, I'll support your petition. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: I, too, will support it. My frustration earlier was that I wasn't sensing that there was drama outside of the property, after the Petitioner and pressed him on it, he indicated that there is, that he does have a bona fide fear of being on that side of the property. That's what I was looking for, some kind of testimony, that hey, I'm scared to even be outside on the south side because I don't know what my neighbor is going to do. Ordinarily I would say that you should double the fines but it doesn't sound like there's consensus for that. I do think you should pay any fines that are assessed for not pulling the permit but I'd give you some time to do it. The floor is open for a motion. RESOLVED. APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-03-10: Todd Davis, 15900 Hubbard, seeking to maintain a six foot tall wood privacy fence within the side yard which is not allowed. Privacy fencing of any height may not be located within the side yard. The property is located on the east side of Hubbard (15900) between Five Mile and East Myrna Avenue, Lot No. 060-01-0717-000, RUF-A. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090B, "Residential District Regulations," be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of the drama with the neighbor, the court proceedings, and the need for protection made by the Petitioner. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because the fear for his children and their safety. Page 36 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because there was neighbor support by the neighbor who would be directly impacted by the fence. 4. The Board received ten (10) letters of approval and one (1) letter of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified as "Low Density Residential" under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That a permit be pulled for the fence. 2. That the Petitioner will be responsible for any fines for the lack of pulling a permit, and the Petitioner will have six (6) months to pay those fines owed to the City. 3. That the fence will be required to pass inspection. Henzi: The variance is granted with the following conditions, you've got to pull a permit and get an inspection and it has to pass inspection. Petitioner: Thank you, to all of you. Henzi: Good luck. Petitioner: Thank you very much, I appreciate it. Have a good evening. Page 37 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-03-11: Shamrock Acquisitions, 13894 Simone, Shelby Township, Ml 48315, seeking to obtain an attached garage upon the property located at 9046 Hartel, Livonia, Ml, resulting in excess number of garages and garage area. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add to this case? DeMeyer: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. DeMeyer? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: This house has been approved for the new garage, were they not told that they had to take down the garage in the backyard? Didn't this house have a garage in the front yard? DeMeyer: It had an attached garage that they wanted to convert to living space and they wanted to build an additional garage and that was obtained back in 2001, I believe, for both, both the structures were completed and finished without inspections. We've had some various inspectors that have gone out there and required and that they obtain all inspections and approvals and that hasn't been done. And then it ended up being in the vacant and abandoned program and that's how it was caught again. Pastor: Were these people the same owners at the time? DeMeyer: It appears that the person who obtained the permits for the garage is the same person that owns the property now. Pastor: Thank you. Mcintyre: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Mcintyre. Mcintyre: So at the time the garages were built without permits, those were different owners? DeMeyers: Permits were obtained but they didn't schedule any inspections, they were built without inspections. Mcintyre: Those were different owners? DeMeyers: The person who obtained the permits for those garages were the same owners. Petitioner: (Houlihan) We purchased the property in January of this year. Page 38 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 Mcintyre: So that's previous to your ownership, okay. Petitioner: (Houlihan) Correct. Mcintyre: Not the people that are here tonight. Pastor: Is it the same owners or not? Henzi: Why don't you introduce yourselves. Petitioner: (Houlihan) I'm Ryan Houlihan, I'm the owner of Shamrock Acquisitions. Petitioner: (Murray) Hi. my name is Carlin Murray, I am the superintendent of Shamrock Acquisitions. Henzi: Same address, business address on the application? Petitioner: (Houlihan): Yes, same address. Henzi: Simone Drive, Shelby Township? Petitioner: (Houlihan) That's it. So this property, to give you a little background on this is what I do for a living is I purchase homes in a lot of the communities in the area and I'd buy them and try to make them look pretty and then resell them. And so this property I in way was the previous owner, in 2001 I knew nothing about it. I purchased the property on January 18th of this year and at that time even when I purchased I wasn't even aware that there were any city certs on the property. Since that time is when we --- you know one of my first steps is to go and I'm also a licensed builder in the State of Michigan so I go and do all the steps I have to do and find out that that there are city certs and at that time is when I determined that there was a, you know, there was a really nice garage built in the back of the property now and then there's a very ugly two-car attached garage that's been --- I don't know how long but according to the neighbors that I spoke with for quite a while there's just been insulation that's kind of had a temporary, you know, they were forced to convert that garage at that time and to my knowledge what I was told by the neighbors that I spoke with today, they never did try and go to get a variance is what I was told. I can't state the accuracy of that but that's what I was told and that's why I at that time they were forced to convert the garage that's the attached garage, you'll see the picture of, which they did a ---what I would call an almost temporary conversion at this time. Mcintyre: Into living space? Petitioner: (Houlihan) Into living space. It's closer to living space than an open garage but it's still far from living space. So I'm not sure if you want me to kind of explain my situation? Henzi: Yes. Page 39 of 51 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 19, 2013 Petitioner: (Houlihan) So as with any of our properties, our goal is always to purchase them and improve them, you know, as nice as we can and then resell them for profit. And with the way that the house is currently, it definitely is not a saleable property in my opinion. So the property as I stated and I think you guys have it in your packet, there is in the back of the property, there's a two to two and a half car very new nice garage that was built, you know it looks like it's within the last five to eight years would be my guess. And there's also, as I said, there's kind of the closed off two car garage that faces the front of Hartel. So the reason I'm asking for the variance is when you see the driveway as it comes up towards that two-car attached garage, it's very obvious that that area was made to be a garage, it looks like it's supposed to be a garage and all my neighbors agree it should be a garage and it currently is neither. It's just been a kind of a closed up temporary space. So my goal is--- I don't see any merit in tearing down a beautiful two and a half car garage in the back and I'd like to keep my two-car garage. We do have an offer currently on the property that is pending the results of this meeting here this evening because in his quote he will purchase the property if the garage is a garage, but if it's not otherwise the home would be goofy and he has no intention of purchasing it. So in looking at this from a cost perspective, it's about a 7 to $10,000 difference if I have to convert it into livable space which it still would in my opinion is functional obsolescence. I would need to run all of the heating through in there. I would need to build a sleeper floor down below. I would need to redo the entire front fa<;:ade which as I said from a curb appeal standpoint I still think it's going to look like a two-car garage that doesn't look quite right once I'm completed even after spending that amount of money. We did knock on our neighbors' doors that I spoke with both the neighbor directly to my right and the neighbor to the left. The right side is obviously the one most impacted in my opinion, it's closest to that garage, a very nice woman named Martha Elliott. I have a letter here from her that she signed that we kind of just made up stating that she was comfortable with it. She took us on a wonderful tour of her home today and she's a very nice woman and was adamant that she was in complete agreement and that if I had pulled her away from her 91-year old mother tonight, she'd probably be here but if I had known it was going to be a couple hours long, I'm glad I didn't. The other neighbor, Tobin Jones, which is the other neighbor if you're facing the home immediately to the left, in addition signed it, agreeing that in his opinion it was not a problem and he was in favor of it. And the other thing that I think is important is that in our subdivision it seems pretty common to me that there are a lot of--- it's not what I would consider your normal sub, so there are quite a few other homes that have more than one garage, one specifically is about four or five doors down across the street from me at 8833 Hartel, there is a picture in there, in your packet, that it has an attached garage as well as a three-car detached garage that in comparison to my property, the way it's structured, we have a pretty deep wooded lot and as you drive by you have to look pretty closely to see the additional garage in the back, versus this is a far more sprawling three-car garage that it's very obvious from the street. Henzi: What are you going to do with the doorwall? Petitioner: (Murray) That was a question I was going to ask the gentleman from the Building Department, do we have to get rid of that? Because I mean obviously it poses a little bit of a --- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 51 March 19, 2013 Petitioner: (Houlihan) We have a back-up plan if that's something we have to eliminate which every municipality is a little different as we deal with a lot If we have to eliminate it, my plan is because siding is very difficult to match, we probably would center a new door, eliminate the doorwall and do some type of a stone on either side of that door which is probably also what we would try to do on the front of the garage area in question because once again it will be difficult to match the siding so I probably will do some kind of a cultured stone on either side of that front fa<;:ade area and then install a new garage door. The header is still in place, everything, you know, as I said, functionally it is a garage still other than there is some drywall, I'll have to remove drywall and some battan insulation that's just temporary currently. Henzi: Will the garage doors match? Petitioner: (Houlihan) Yes. Right now in the two and a half car detached garage we put a brand new garage door on there because the one --- it was just a boarded up section so that has already a brand new door and we will putting a matching door on the front area. Henzi: I have a couple more questions. Are you Dan McCullough? Who's Dan McCullough? Petitioner: (Houlihan) No. This is Carlin Dean and I am Houlihan. Henzi: I'm looking at this permit and it lists Shamrock Acquisitions as the owner. Petitioner: (Houlihan) No. The only reason I know that name Dan McCullough is today when we pulled some things out of the mailbox, I saw that name on a piece of mail today. So that could be the previous owner but I have no idea who that is other than seeing his name on a piece of mail. Petitioner: (Murray) Maybe some paperwork got crossed and everything because when I pulled a permit just a month ago, I mean obviously we were the owners and Ryan is the one that signed the paperwork and I had signed it when I was there, I had Power of Attorney obviously for the company. Petitioner: (Houlihan) But he is in no way a participant of our organization. As soon as you were describing that we were the original owners I was thinking all right somehow there's some inaccurate information and that may have been it. DeMeyers: Well, the permits that were obtained in 2001 show Shamrock Acquisitions LLC as the owner of the property. Petitioner: (Houlihan) Yes, Shamrock Acquisitions, LLC wasn't even a corporation at that time, it wasn't in business until 2006. Petitioner: (Murray) And you guys should have a copy of his building license and everything stating that it was --- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 51 March 19, 2013 Petitioner: (Houlihan) Let me see if I have a copy of the permit in here, I may. Petitioner: (Murray) Well, they have your builder's license and the LLC license and everything, they should have a copy of that. Petitioner: (Houlihan) I think that's just somehow a clerical error because Shamrock was in no way the original owner. McCue: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I mean this is showing the permit issued in 2001, that's what you're looking at, correct? Petitioner: (Houlihan) Yeah, that's not--- McCue: I'm not doubting you but how does that become a clerical error if we have a copy of a permit from 2001? Pastor: I agree. Petitioner: (Houlihan) I have in previous experiences, never within your municipality, where when a new permit is pulled for me, and I've had this on a deck permit in Madison Heights, where it came up where I pulled or they tried to say hey, why Didn't you pull it the first time? And I'm not familiar with the nuances of how your system is as far as inputting and pulling permits, but it sounds to me like that is what happened in that case because I had to say, hey I basically said the same thing, here's the proof that I bought it in January of this year in this particular case and they said yeah, I can see that was an error. So I can assure you there's no way that is even possible. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: What's your address again? Petitioner: (Houlihan) The address for my business is 13902 Simone Drive and I also have the suite directly next door which is- Pastor: In Utica? Petitioner: (Houlihan) In Shelby Township, yes. So it might have a few errors going on there. Petitioner: (Murray) Is that on the permit from 2001 as well? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 51 March 19, 2013 Pastor: Yes. Petitioner: (Murray) Wow. Petitioner: (Houlihan) I've only been in that suite for five years so, it sounds to me like what happened is when we went to pull our new permit some information was crossed which has nothing to do with us obviously. I have here my HUD settlement statement showing how I purchased it and I don't know if we have access to a computer, I could pull up the MLS to show you how the transfer of ownership, that Shamrock never owned it. I assure you it's clerical. Petitioner: (Murray) And like I said when I gave his builder's permit to pull the permits, I gave them also a copy of the LLC when it was started and I printed it right off the Michigan website and it says when Shamrock LLC was originated, I think it was 2006 maybe. Petitioner: (Houlihan) Yeah. What Carl is referencing there it was very difficult, your City, I give you credit, getting past the gatekeeper was very difficult because he had called me and I was in a meeting and he said they won't let me pull it unless I can prove we're Shamrock. And I said well show them, I mean he had quite a few documents showing that so I had instructed him, as well as I don't remember the woman you spoke with, to go to the Department of Labor and Economic Growth website and pull my entity paperwork and my guess is when she pulled that. she probably crossed the paths on that. Petitioner: (Murray) It was Marilyn. Henzi: I'm looking at this, Building Department, City of Livonia Building Department, And although it states the permit was issued 10/18/2001, this document could have been prepared this year. Fisher: Well, hearing this, I'm certainly wondering. Petitioner: (Houlihan) So my question was, was Alex Bishop the Building Official in 2001? I don't think he was. Fisher: You may be right, that might be the Dave Woodcox era. Petitioner: (Houlihan) Yeah, I'm sure, that's happened before. Henzi: It seems to me this document that we're looking at was created after they bought the property and it's possible that the owners somehow got crossed and Dan McCaulley is probably the guy that pulled it back in '01 because he's atttributed to the address and owner Shamrock Acquisitions which is true today, I agree, it seems to me that this could be an error. Because 2001 building permits wouldn't have said Alex Bishop, Building Official. Mcintyre: And the address, because this says 13984 which is not the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 51 March 19, 2013 address you gave, right? Petitioner: (Houlihan) No, I have two suites right next to each other for my Companies. Mcintyre: So 13894 is one of your addresses? Petitioner: (Houlihan) That's one of my addresses, which that address is on my other documentation as well. Mcintyre: Got it. Petitioner: (Houlihan) So obviously I don't know what our results will be here today, I'm comfortable if you guys are if you come up with whatever reasoning where we make it with an asterisk next to it so to speak until you can verify this, I'm comfortable with that. Henzi: Any other questions? Caramagno: Mr. chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: When you say Bishop's name is on here, the fee of $35, what did you pay? What's the fee? Petitioner: (Houlihan) I don't remember. Petitioner: (Murray) What was the fee for what? Petitioner: (Houlihan) For the most recent building permit. I'm sure it was more than 35 bucks, though. Petitioner: (Murray) It was a $35 fee, a $15 fee, and I think a $60 something fee, they rolled them altogether. You know, I do have them in my briefcase, unfortunately I did not bring that. Petitioner: (Houlihan) Is it downstairs? Petitioner: (Murray) No, it's in my truck. There were three different charges I know for the kitchen. Petitioner: (Houlihan) It happens more often than you think, it happened to me in Grosse Pointe last year, and it happens. It's just when they inputted it, what I'm thinking happened is this system, this is just my interpretation going through retroactive bills, that information which is scary because when you go to pull your information unfortunately it's not correct at that time. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 51 March 19, 2013 Fisher: I guess what this means is you'd have to have Xeroxes of permits or whatever and anyway this was computer generated. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: So you want to keep the front garage, you want to keep the back garage, I'm trying to remember this house, is there a door on the opposite side of the garage heading towards the house, the front door? Petitioner: (Houlihan) There's a side door. Petitioner: (Murray) There's a sliding glass door on the back of the house which I believe would be east. Pastor: Where is the front door? Petitioner: (Murray) The front door is on the west side of the home, right, facing the main road. The front porch is to the left of the garage. Mcintyre: Right there, right? Petitioner: (Houlihan) Exactly. Mcintyre: When I drove by you were standing on the front porch, correct? Petitioner: (Houlihan) Right. Mcintyre: Is that right? Petitioner: (Houlihan) Yeah, we were there today, that's when we were speaking to the neighbors. Petitioner: (Murray) There's a front door and then there's a back door directly back. McCue: It's shaped like this, right, is that what you're saying? Petitioner: (Houlihan) Yes, there's a porch. Mcintyre: That you can't see, right? Petitioner: (Houlihan) Yes, to the left. Henzi: Anything else? Does anybody else in the audience want to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. Seeing no one come forward, can you read the letters? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 51 March 19, 2013 Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Does this house have a basement or is that a crawl? Petitioner: (Houlihan) That's a basement. Pastor: Is there any other reason why you can't keep this as a part of the house? Petitioner: (Houlihan) The first thing I'd tell you is it makes the house very--- and the words I'll reuse about potential buyer--- it makes it very goofy. It feels like a garage, if you're walking out of the kitchen and you're getting ready to turn left and go down your stairs as opposed to going downstairs or turning into what would feel like your garage, you have this very odd room sitting there that's not heated, it looks like a garage. Pastor: Most people would call that a master bedroom. Petitioner: (Houlihan) There is a nice big master bedroom with a beautiful new master bath, so we already have our master bedroom. I can just tell you that it to me is the definition of functional obsolescence in this case, it doesn't make sense in my opinion. Petitioner: (Murray) And as far as the hardship that we want you to take into consideration, this really falls on me, I didn't see the sticker on the back door and I'm the one that's in charge of going and seeing the house and I said yes, this is a good deal, it looks like a good deal and this garage would be a big selling factor obviously for me. So when I seen that I said this is a great deal, it's got an extra garage, we went through our inspection and we seen the stickers and obviously that's going to be my fault. Petitioner: (Houlihan) I thought this would be easier, like I said every city is different and I appreciate that you guys have really stringent standards. But like I said if you look at the picture and you see a garage and a driveway approach that dead ends into your house, that's just it looks like a garage, it feels like a garage. I mean when I was with my neighbor to the right and she just stood back with us on the street and she said I don't even know how they can tell you that that shouldn't be a garage so that's just one person's opinion but like I said it's not that I'm trying to be picky but it would look far better from curb appeal as a garage. Petitioner: (Murray) And we've pulled every permit on the job and we actually ripped all the electrical out of the basement and rewired the entire basement because they asked us to, I mean we've gone above and beyond financially to make it a good home that we're going to be happy to give to somebody. Henzi: Okay. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: There is an objection (letter read), Carl Steffan at 9055 Hartel. We have City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 51 March 19, 2013 h. Shirley Kutinsky at 9031 Sunbury with an objection (letter read). Henzi: Gentlemen, anything you'd like to say in closing? Petitioner: (Houlihan) As far as the letters, from what I was told, when I spoke with my neighbors they didn't have objections so I don't know if the dates on those letters are recent or old complaints. Petitioner: (Murray) The letter with the garage being oversized for the lot, this is something I went over with the gentleman, I think his name is John down in the Building Department. I had the plot plan redone and the plot plan on file is wrong, so I think that's why they say that. Caramagno: And we have two approvals, we have Martha Elliott at 9026 and Tobin Jones at 9056 Hartel, both send approval on Shamrock Acquisition letterhead, which Is kind of nice. And the two we've got as objections, they're both dated March 11th and this one is dated March 191 Henzi: I've got to ask the questions, when were theirs dated? Petitioner: (Houlihan) The question I have is now when you guys take a look at this as obviously you know I realize every resident is going to have a different opinion and I appreciate that where we literally have one four doors down, you know that's the hing, is that something that's taken into account when you guys make this decision versus I don't know if those folks aren't aware of that but that was one of my--- as you're reading those I was thinking it would be hard for me to object when I knew there was another one 100 yards down the street. Petitioner: (Murray) And it seems like they're biased obviously because somebody got turned down it seems like. But those letters that we've just brought in today are both from our immediate neighbors. Fisher: Just to clarify, if you're referring to, the other house that you're referring to with a large garage, the reason that exists is because there was a fire there and the property previous to that, which was apparently very old and the buildings were roughly the same footprint that you see today, so that wasn't an approval. Petitioner: (Houlihan) And I know there is another one out the other way that was further away from our home, that's why I didn't write that down. I figured the one that was on our street held the most merit. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Mr. Fisher, is that other one where there is a big garage, is that a double wide lot? It looks like it to me. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 51 March 19, 2013 Mcintyre: The one where the fire was? Fisher: The one that they had the picture of is where the fire was. Mcintyre: With the three-car garage. McCue: 8833 Hartel. Fisher: 8833, I'm sorry, I don't have that one. I agree just from the picture it looks like a big lot. Petitioner: (Houlihan) I would agree it's a larger than average lot, I would say that. But in the same token as I said from our lot it's a very deep lot and that's what --- if the other garage was built, the two and a half car garage was built right next to it, it would look pretty silly and I wouldn't even be sitting here but it's because you don't hardly even see that one from the road. Henzi: Anything else you guys want to say in closing? Petitioner: (Houlihan) No, I think we pretty much covered it. Henzi: I'll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, this is to me not a big deal. You're refurbishing a property that's in what I consider in terrible shape right now and if means it's got some more garage as a result of a better piece at the end, I'm happy with that. We talked about the doorwall earlier on the side of the garage, we talked about the garage, it looks like your garage is a garage, the driveway goes up into the garage, I don't think the garage should have a doorwall, so I think the doorwall needs to go. Put another door like you said and some stone around it, I think that makes it better. I think you're improving the neighborhood by fixing this property. I think I heard you mention you're going to put a garage on the house, you're going to put a garage door on the garage in back that's plywood, is that what it's got on it? Petitioner: (Houlihan) That's already in place, yes. Caramagno: The pictures show a fence down in kind of disarray. Petitioner: (Houlihan) That's being fixed. Caramagno: That's got to be fixed. And obviously inspection is still taking a look at all of this to make sure that the house is in good standing, so I'm in support. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, typically if this was coming to us and someone said they wanted to build City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 51 March 19, 2013 a second garage, I would not be in support because this lot is not big enough to support that. Due to the fact it's going through foreclosure and there's extenuating circumstances, I suppose I could support it out of spite. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I agree. Firstly with the situation of the objections that we're hearing, they are not coming from your immediate neighbors, that's a big piece of it, so I will be in support. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: When you're not going to be doing any damage to what's there and I agree with Mr. Pastor that normally the lot is really too small to add a garage to it but in this case I'm going to be in support. Henzi: Mrs. Mcintyre. Mcintyre: I go by, you know, kind of the letter of the law and facts but I'll tell you when you drive down a street and the property you're looking at clearly has the potential to be one of the nicest homes on the street and taking the taking the neighborhood in a very positive direction. And then furthermore, again, this doesn't overrule the data or the facts, you guys come in, you completely buttoned up everything that's been done the way that it's supposed to be, you know who you've talked to, you know that kind of sets the tone. And the last thing is a lot people get bad raps for buying foreclosed homes and then turning them, flipping them, you guys come here and buy every foreclosed home and do what you're doing within ordinance, but you know I have absolutely no problem and am in full support. Petitioner: (Houlihan) Thank you. Henzi: Yes, I agree. The things that I consider when looking at a situation like this is the entire nature of the neighborhood is a mismatch of homes that they built in the '30s and this is like putting a brand new house in the middle of the street. And I agree with you, there is a hardship, there is a structure there that everybody that drives by and says that's a garage, it's not a living room. I think Mr. Caramagno's suggestion was a good one for safety reasons and also it would look goofy. So I will be in full support. I think it looks great. You guys did a nice job and I'm glad, very happy you've got a buyer already. Petitioner: (Houlihan): Thank you. Sills: Did we determine who the owner of the house is? Petitioner: (Houlihan) It's definitely us now. We're hoping that you guys will be pleased with this result here today. Henzi: The floor is open for a motion. Go ahead. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 51 March 19, 2013 Upon motion by Mcintyre, supported by Caramagno, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-03-11: Shamrock Acquistions, 13894 Simone, Shelby Township, Ml, 48315, on behalf of 9046 Hartel, Livonia, Ml, seeking to maintain an attached garage upon this property, resulting in excess number of garages and garage area. Number of Garages Allowed: One Proposed: Two Excess: One Garage Area Allowed: 660 sq. ft. Proposed: 1,058 sq. ft. (330 sq. ft. existing) Excess: 398 sq. ft. The property is located on the east side of Hartel (9046) between Joy and Grandon, Lot No. 143-01-0015-001, RUF Zoning District, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because this was a foreclosed home that already had a detached garage and the house had an attachment that clearly only worked as a garage. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because it would be very difficult to sell the house if the attachment is converted into living space. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because one of the objections was from someone who did not even observe the site line and the other from somebody who had a prior denial. There is support from the neighbors on either side of the home. 4. The Board received two (2) letters of approval and two (2) letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified as "Low Density Residential" under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the doorwall be removed that is currently on the garage and replaced with a door that will consist of decorative stone work and be visually pleasing. 2. That the garage doors shall match. 3. That at the time of the inspection any fence in disrepair should meet ordinance requirements. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 51 March 19, 2013 A YES: Mcintyre, Caramagno, McCue, Pastor, Sills, Henzi NAYS: None. ABSENT: Duggan. Henzi: The variance is granted. Petitioner: (Houlihan) Thank you very much.