The URL can be used to link to this page

Home My WebLink About2013-11-26 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 1 of 55 November 26, 2013 - MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman Sam Caramagno Edward Duggan Betsy McCue Kathleen E. McIntyre MEMBERS ABSENT: Craig Pastor, Vice Chairman Robert E. Sills OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, City Attorney Steve Banko, City Inspector Helen Mininni, Court Reporter The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Five (5) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 27 persons present in the audience. ________________________________________________________________ (7:05 #1/173) APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-11-60: Kelly Reich, 16515 Whitby, seeking to erect a 6- foot tall privacy fence near the side street property line of a corner lot resulting in ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING HELD NOVEMBER 26, 2013 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 2 of 55 November 26, 2013 - the fence being excess in height, placed in the side yard and the fence does not align with any fence on adjoining property. Privacy fences cannot be in the side or front yard. Fence Height Allowed: Five feet Proposed: Six feet Excess: One foot The property is located on the west side of Whitby, (16515), between Burton and Grove. Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: Not at this time, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Seeing none, will the Petitioner please come forward? Petitioner: Good evening. Henzi: Good evening. Can you tell us your name and address? Petitioner: My name is Kelly Reich, r-e-i-c-h. I live at 16515 Whitby Street, Livonia, Michigan. Henzi: Okay. Go ahead and tell us why you want to construct the privacy fence. Petitioner: When we first purchased this house three years ago, we thought that we had a bigger lot. Then we actually found out that we had to keep our line 25 ft. from the sidewalk. I’m trying to put a fence up. I put down in the notes for five feet from the sidewalk. I’ve had a couple sergeants come over and review the lot. They had no problem with going with 10 ft, which would be fine with me also just so I could get more of a lot line in there because we do have a lot of traffic and kids that walk back and forth to the high school. We do have a couple dogs that they seem to want to tease and irritate as they walk their dogs by. I’m just trying to put up a fence so I can kind of shield them from my dog jumping out or their dog coming up to my dog. Henzi: So, you don’t have any problem if the fence is 10 ft. north of the sidewalk? Petitioner: No, I do not. Henzi: And you have gotten your neighbor’s approval for the fence? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 3 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Petitioner: I do have all my neighbors’ approval on that. Henzi: There is a photograph in our packet of a vinyl fence. I can’t tell the color but is this a model? Petitioner: It’s white. It’s white vinyl. Henzi: And that’s the model that you want to put up? Petitioner: Yes, it is. It’s called Intervence. Henzi: If you lived on Burton Lane, is Whitby the only way into your sub? Petitioner: There is one other way – actually there is two. You can come down through Fairlane and then you can come in through Riverside, but that’s farther down the road. Ours is basically the main traffic coming out of our section of the sub. Henzi: Okay. Thanks. Any questions for the Petitioner? McIntyre: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre. McIntyre: Would you just reiterate or maybe explain why you need a 6-ft. fence? I know you said there was kids walking back and forth but -- Petitioner: Just because I have a dog that wants to jump high and I’m just afraid that the people can actually see over the fence and I’m just afraid that my dog would get out, you know, because it’s part like I’d say pit bull and Scooby Doo it looks like. And it’s just for the safety of my children, too, so that the people that walk by don’t see my children playing in the yard and stuff like that if they want to play in the yard. McIntyre: How old are your kids? Petitioner: I’ve got a 6 ½, I’ve got a 13, and a 15. McIntyre: Okay. Thank you. And is your dog licensed? Petitioner: Yes, it is. McIntyre: Okay. Thank you. Petitioner: You’re welcome. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 4 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the podium. You can have a seat, Mr. Reich, we will come back to you. Petitioner: Thank you. Walters: Good evening. My name is Bob Walters. I live at 16219 Alpine, Livonia, Michigan. I’ve been a resident of Burton Hollow for going on 24 years, a resident of Livonia approaching 35 years. I’d like to distribute the six copies that I have here, which gives you a pictorial of the house in question. The purpose I guess of his request for a variance, which is a variance in height, side yard and not aligning with any fence on the adjoining property. As you see in the first picture, it’s a picture looking south at the house and he has a cyclone fence I believe that is his on the property and then behind him I believe there is a wood fence. I’m not sure if it is Mr. Reich’s or if it is his adjoining neighbor. The next picture is a side picture looking north, which shows the current cyclone fence, his back porch and so forth. I’m basically here to speak on rejection of this proposal for a variance, as this side yard is very large. There is a lot of traffic as Kelly mentioned. A lot of homeowners come through here. The Burton Hollow Swim Club and to him a 6-ft. high vinyl white fence would be a dramatic eyesore, a devaluation of property values. I’ve been the past president of the Burton Hollow Civic Association so I know the complaints that I hear. And so if you look at this second picture, you’ll see the plastic poles that are kind of sticking up there. That is the proposed line on this petition by the homeowner. The third picture is another viewpoint looking for northeast and the fourth shows his neighbor directly adjoining and then you have a picture basically looking west down the street. So, if you could imagine a big 6-ft. tall fence protruding out from the back of the side yard there it’s just not very conducive and appropriate for the residents of Burton Hollow. The people that are trying to up keep their homes and try to recapture some value after what’s been happening in 2008 and 2009 with home values. So, as the past president of the Burton Hollow Civic Association, I want you to basically try to look at that information that I provided here that this is not a good thing for Livonia, it’s not a good thing for Burton Hollow. Thank you. Henzi: Anybody else? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Sir. I have a question for Mr. Walters. I have a question for you. You’re a past president of the Burton Hollow Association? Walters: Correct. Caramagno: Are you speaking on behalf of the Association or as a personal -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 5 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Walters: I’m speaking as a 24-year resident living in Burton Hollow. Caramagno: Okay. Do you know what the Association thinks about this? Walters: They’re not for it. They’re for anything that is not against the regulations of the City and of the deed restrictions of Burton Hollow. Caramagno: Okay. When you say they’re not for it – how many members are there? Walters: Well, there is a board of seven. Caramagno: Board of seven. And you’re saying all seven are against this? Walters: All seven are against it. Caramagno: Okay. Thank you. Walters: You’re welcome. Caramagno: Mr. Walters, that leads me to a question. You said that the Board is against anything that might infringe on the deed restriction. Do you believe that there is a deed restriction against side-yard fences in Burton Hollow? Walters: Well, yes. These restrictions that are here are even more restrictive than other parts of Burton Hollow, as Burton Hollow was built in six different phases. The restrictions vary a little bit. This particular house is in subdivision number two and let me just quickly get to it here. “Fences. Only ornamental fences or wood open ranch type of fence not exceeding 5 ft. in height shall be erected, placed, altered or permitted except ornamental post not exceeding 6 ft. in height may be used. It is the intention to prohibit solid fences of boards, planks, or logs; therefore, any fence not having an open area equal to 70% of the gross area shall not be erected, placed, altered, or permitted provided however the masonry walls having footings not less than 3 ft. 6 in. below soil line may be erected with the written consent of the owners of premises abutting those premises upon which such walls are to be erected in the Architectural Control Committee. The Architectural Control Committee shall not grant consent until the certified copies of such written consent is submitted to it. Henzi: Thank you. Walters: You’re welcome. Henzi: Is there anybody else who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the podium. Seeing no one else wanting to speak, are there letters? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 6 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Caramagno: Yes, I have an approval Richard Ryan [34144 Burton Lane] (letter was read). David Turbiak [34240 Munger] writes an approval (letter was read). Tracy Miller [16541 Whitby] (letter was read). We have an objection from Margaret Innis and Donald Ouellette [34105 Burton] (letter was read). Pamela Johnson [34121 Burton Lane] objection (letter was read). Nancy (& Robert) Mitcham [34091 Burton Lane] objection (letter was read). James Roach [34086 Burton Lane] objection (letter was read). Henzi: Mr. Reich, you have the opportunity to make a closing statement if you would like. Petitioner: Yes, I would. At the point of putting this privacy fence up there is a couple names on there that – David Miller lives on Whitby Lane and I had given him this paper to sign about the privacy fence. He knew long in advance what I was going to do, how tall it was, and where I wanted it. He did sign this stating that he did not mind that I put up. Now, all of a sudden he does mind and he knew in the very beginning what I was planning to do. Henzi: No, his wife approved. Petitioner: His wife approved? Henzi: Yes. Petitioner: Okay. I also have some photos here of houses in Burton Lane that do have a privacy fence on the corner lot. There is one actually on the corner of Polly Anna and Wood Drive that stately shows Burton Hollow and they have it 2- ft. from the sidewalk that joins the whole backyard, which would basically block that view also. I’m not looking for the 2 ft. I’m not looking for the 5 ft. I’m looking for the 10 ft, but the house there does show a privacy fence following all the way around the yard. There’s also other houses that are in Livonia that, you know, that are covering the same spots that I am asking for and I just don’t think it would be fair to – I’m not saying I want it because they have it I want it for, you know, protection of my children, the safety of the neighbors of walking their dogs that want to let their dog come up to my fence. And I’m afraid that that their dog is going to torment mine enough to make it jump over the fence or try to get out. I just want to make sure that everybody is safe. Like I said, I had the police from Livonia come. They did the inspection and review and they found that that would not be blocking that street with the 10 ft. variance back. They looked at it both ways. They talked to my wife and they both agreed that 10 ft. from the sidewalk is more than enough clearance to be able to view traffic coming either south down Whitby or east or west on Burton Lane. That’s all I have to say. Henzi: I have one last question for you. How many side-yard fences are there within Burton Hollow? You mentioned one, but you said you’ve got photos. I’m City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 7 of 55 November 26, 2013 - not interested in throughout the city because I know they exist. I’m talking about just Burton Hollow. Petitioner: Right. That’s the only one that I could notice. I didn’t like drive completely through Burton Hollow. I was just from traveling in and out I’ve noticed that. Thank you so much. Henzi: All right. I will close the public portion of the case -- Caramagno: I’m sorry, sir, I’ve got a question for you. The proposal you have here is to put the fence on the north side as well as the south side. How about that wooden piece in the back whose fence is that? Petitioner: That is mine. That was actually approved by the City Building Inspection back in -- Caramagno: Your proposal is supposed to do what take that down? Petitioner: I want to take that down put up a white vinyl privacy fence. Caramagno: So, your proposal is white vinyl fence the whole yard? Petitioner: Yes, I would so it’s in line with everything else. I would take the cyclone fences down, the old wood privacy fence and replace it with a brand new white vinyl fence. Caramagno: Okay. Thank you. Petitioner: I mean I’ve already talked to the city inspector and he went ahead and already approved that I could go ahead and where the fence sits now it will still be a white vinyl fence it’s just not going to be that extra 15 ft. out. And he approved that I could put the 6 ft. fence in the existing spot as my fence now, but he said to go in front of the Board of Appeals to see if I could get that variance moved out at least 15 ft. so I have more of a yard. Henzi: Thanks. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Boards comments with Mrs. McIntyre. McIntyre: I have a question, Mr. Chair. It sounded to me if I understood the deed restrictions correctly that the deed restrictions prohibited the fence as being requested. So then, my question is what takes precedence? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 8 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Fisher: Well, the City generally doesn’t take responsibility for enforcing deed restrictions. McIntyre: Right. Fisher: But we try not to violate them either and it sounds like, as you say, this would violate these deed restrictions. McIntyre: Okay. That’s a concern to me. I live in a subdivision where we have deed restrictions and I understand it is incumbent upon the civic association or the subdivision association to enforce the deed restrictions. That does cause me some heartburn. I don’t understand and I didn’t hear a compelling case as to why the fence needs to be moved up forward of the – why it needs to be – let me look at these pictures. Right, this is moving east. I don’t understand if I read this correctly why the fence – why you need to be moved up to here. If you do need a privacy fence and we have approved privacy fences especially on corner lots. I understand you have a different configuration, but I don’t see any compelling reason why that fence needs to come further east than it is. I appreciate that you have kids. Your kids are not toddlers. I appreciate the situation with your dog. I understand why you want a 6 ft. fence, but I would not be in support of moving the fence further east according to the plans. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Where I looked at your property and your request for this fence here, I drove into the sub obviously and when I looked at this I thought as I drove in the sub, I don’t see a lot of side-yard fences here anywhere especially coming up close to the sidewalk. So, I looked at it for a few minutes and I parked and then I said, let me go for a little ride and I rode around the sub. I didn’t see a lot of fences in the side yard. This particular fence and this configuration would be completely different to anything else that I have seen in that sub. While there might be one somewhere up closer to Six Mile as you said, this would look odd to me. I hear the need for the fence for keeping the dog and seeing people walk by, but I think there might be something better here to satisfy the subdivision, to satisfy you. I didn’t hear that you took this to your civic board and try to reason with them on anything. So, at this point I am not in favor of this, but I think it can be tabled and maybe you could find a resolution later on. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: I am in favor of the tabling resolution. You’re right on the corner and you have people are walking by on Six Mile right there. I get why you need a privacy fence. When you read the civic board deed restrictions, I thought he said at the end that if you get approval from your neighbors and go to the civic board that they would be open to having put up a privacy fence, but I was listening to him, but I could have heard it wrong, but I think you have a need. You have a City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 9 of 55 November 26, 2013 - compelling need right on the corner with Six Mile right there and everyone that walks by. I just want you to talk to the civic board before we approve it. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I agree. I’m pretty much restating what everyone else has said. It does not really flow with the neighborhood. The deed restrictions are a concern to me as well. I would like to see you be able to work something out with them and make sure that it’s all consistent within those regulations in the neighborhood. Again, you’ve got your immediate neighbors that are in support, but you’ve got several that were opposed. When it’s not consistent with the neighborhood, it’s going against what the deed restrictions are and we have several neighbors that are not in support of that, I would agree with a tabling solution. I’m sure there has got to be an option out there and I would prefer to have it tabled and have you go back and figure out what Plan B might be and then see you back here again. Henzi: Yes, I feel much the same. I’ll agree with the Petitioner that there are side-yard fences throughout the city of Livonia in many different subdivisions. One of the reasons why I approve those in many cases is because the folks on the other corner have one. That’s just not the case in Burton Hollow. I don’t remember seeing many. As a favor really to the Petitioner so that he doesn’t have to pay a fee and he doesn’t get an outright denial, I’ll go along with Mr. Caramagno’s suggestion for a tabling resolution so that he can try and convince the civic board. So, the floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Duggan, it was: APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-11-60: Kelly Reich, 16515 Whitby, seeking to erect a 6- foot tall privacy fence near the side street property line of a corner lot resulting in the fence being excess in height, placed in the side yard and the fence does not align with any fence on adjoining property. Privacy fences cannot be in the side or front yard. Fence Height Allowed: Five feet Proposed: Six feet Excess: One foot The property is located on the west side of Whitby, (16515), between Burton and Grove, be tabled to allow Petitioner an opportunity to approach the Burton Hollow Board and redesign the plan to suit everyone’s needs. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 10 of 55 November 26, 2013 - ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Caramagno, Duggan, McCue, McIntyre, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: Pastor, Sills Henzi: The petition was tabled. The next available meeting is January 14th. If you want that date, you have to have your submission in to the ZBA office by December 20th. And all you do is call Bonnie at the ZBA office and ask to reschedule. Good luck. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 11 of 55 November 26, 2013 - (7:30 #1/933) APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-11-61:, Nicholas Carignan, 9979 Cavel, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to conduct fitness training classes within an M-L (Manufacturing Limited) Zoning District which is not allowed. The property is located on the south side of Eight Mile (31745), between Osmus and Parker. Henzi: Before we begin, Mr. Fisher, is this a use variance? Fisher: This is a use variance, Mr. Chair. Henzi: So, we need five votes? Fisher: Yes, it will require a unanimous board this evening. Henzi: Okay. Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: At looking at other variances along 8 Mile Road, the Board did issue a variance, a use variance, for a karate training facility at 31839 8 Mile Road back in 2005. Henzi: Thank you. That business is still open; isn’t it? Banko: Yes, it is. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come forward? Petitioner: My name is Nick Carignan. The business address is 31745 8 Mile Road. Home address is 9979 Cavel, Livonia. I have been a Livonia resident my whole life. I went to Livonia Public Schools, bought a house in Livonia, and I am raising a family in Livonia. I am a full-time fireman in another community, but I started this venture on another business that I am real passionate about which is fitness and cross fit. We, of course, want to open it in the community in which we live in. When we started this venture, we found a building that we really liked and we needed the building because of height use because we use gymnastic screens, rope climbs and we have a 10 ft. pull-up break. Now when we initially signed the lease, it was represented as an M-1 zoned building. Come to find out now that it’s a Manufacturing Limited. If it was M-1 this would be an acceptable waiver use through the Planning Committee, which hasn’t been denied before. Clearly, if we cross Osmus across the street, it is an M-1 district, which this would City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 12 of 55 November 26, 2013 - be allowed. So, I am seeking this variance for an M-1 to use for training fitness classes. Henzi: Okay. Mr. Carignan, I have a couple questions for you. Petitioner: Sure. Henzi: Will you be a franchisee? Petitioner: We’re not a franchise. We are an affiliate of Cross-Fit, which really you’re using the name of Cross Fit, but we are independently owned and how we operate is completely on us. We use the methodology and the name of Cross Fit, which is a company that was started about 17 years ago and there’s about 7,000 affiliates worldwide. Henzi: Okay. Cross Fit is not just a description of the type of training it’s also the name of a company? Petitioner: Correct. It’s not like a franchise like a Jimmy Johns or Subway where you have to follow exactly how they run things and how they do it. The training modality more so the methodology that Craig Glassman created is what we are following. He has trade marked his methodology and that’s the route that we’re going. Henzi: And then I think you touched on it in your packet, but could you explain a little bit what you’re talking about. You’re suggesting this is a good fit for your business because it is on 8 Mile because you don’t need a lot of parking because you’re not competing with big gyms like Life Time; right? Petitioner: Correct. We’re not a 24-hour facility. It’s strictly based on classes. People come to a class that’s ran by a coach so, it’s not a come as-you-go or not like Planet Fitness or Lifetime where we need a lot of spaces. Also because of limited space and which we already want to anyway is cap the amount of people that can come to a class. So, that will help regulate the amount of parking spaces we need, but also help us in staying in that small intimate class that we want so you can get that one-on-one feel with a coach. Also, we plan on staggering class times with a half hour in between so there is no backs up between classes in the parking lot. Henzi: Okay. Any questions? McIntyre: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 13 of 55 November 26, 2013 - McIntyre: This might be for Mr. Banko. I couldn’t tell and I didn’t count the parking spaces, which I should have done. How many parking spaces are there? Petitioner: There are 25. McIntyre: Okay. And how many employees do you have? Petitioner: Three including myself. McIntyre: And those 25 are dedicated. Those are all for your -- Petitioner: It is for me and the other tenant next to me. We have a great business relationship and he assures me that he only uses two to three spots, McIntyre: He’s in insurance; right? Petitioner: No, he manufactures cabinetry. McIntyre: Oh, cabinetry. Petitioner: Yeah, he says he only uses one or two spots. McIntyre: Okay. Petitioner: And his business is actually closed during our busy times. McIntyre: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: Who was the one that told you it was an M-1 zoning? I know you said it was advertised. Was it on like a flyer or were you told or what was it? Petitioner: Yeah, it was given to me by the landlord. Duggan: Okay. And you still – gave it to your landlord I assume? Petitioner: Yeah. He doesn’t know the specifics, but he knows we are going through this with you guys. Duggan: Did you ever ask him why he wasn’t aware what his property was zoned in? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 14 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Petitioner: I have not. If things don’t go in my favor tonight, that is the next step. Duggan: All right. Thank you. Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: To that point, did you both execute the least already? Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: And it wasn’t contingent on getting approval; right? Petitioner: No, it’s not. Henzi: So, you’re on the hook? Petitioner: Right. Henzi: Did you tell him that? Petitioner: No. Henzi: There’s a lot of letters in our packet from folks who are very supportive of you and they’re all Livonia residents. Are these folks that have been to your classes at another facility? Petitioner: Correct. I’ve been a cross-fit coach for over two years now and I was a head coach at a local affiliate for the last year and these are members that are leaving that facility to follow me in this venture. She’s in another city so they’re leaving an established gym to follow me and my staff to our place. Henzi: What was the building used for before? Petitioner: It was a showroom and window replacement. Henzi: And how long has it been vacant? Petitioner: At this point, I believe about five months, but I don’t know for sure. Henzi: Okay. Any other questions? I see none. Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up. Carignan: My name is Larry Carignan. I live at 14448 Auburndale Court. I have been a resident of Livonia for going on about 15 years and I am Nick Carignan’s uncle. As far as his experience with regards to cross fit my wife, Carol, and I have participated in cross fit over two years now and all due to Nick. He’s the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 15 of 55 November 26, 2013 - one who talked to us about the activity and I can assure you that if it wasn’t a good thing, a positive thing, I wouldn’t continue participating in it. I’ve never been one to work out unfortunately, but Nick was the one who brought Carol and I into this activity over two years ago and I can attest to Nick’s professionalism and determination to run a good company outfit. I can assure you that his company Lower Town Cross Fit – Eight Mile Cross Fit will be a positive addition to Livonia, to the area and I have every reason to except that it will be credit not only to himself and his members, but to the city. It is a very positive activity. I don’t know if any of you are aware of cross fit as an activity. It is relatively new and the members that come to a cross fit place are very positive. They do good things. In fact, the place that I started out at does a lot of charity activities and I’m sure they will probably continue the same thing. So, I just want to speak in favor of it. Henzi: Anybody else? Good evening. Carignan: My name Dave Carignan. I’m Nick’s dad. I don’t go to cross fit as you can tell. I probably should though. I just want to say that Nick is the kind of man that you want to have to have a business in Livonia. We’ve lived in Livonia for 28 years. Nick grew up in Livonia, went through all the schools in Livonia, what’s to have his business in Livonia and I know he is the type of person that has the integrity that really is the kind of thing that Livonia wants in a person to be a model to other young people, young families in the city. He will bring in those type of people into his business and I think it would be a great benefit to the city to have Nick and his family as business owners here in Livonia. Thank you. Henzi: Anybody else? Carignan: I’m Carol Carignan. I’m Nick’s aunt and we live at 14448 Auburndale Court and I have to correct my husband. We have lived there 17 years not 15 years. One of the things that I just want to point about this business is that I have corresponded a little bit unusual when we first joined a few years ago at the other facility that Nick was at that it was kind of in an industrial facility. And we realized shortly that the thing that draws you to cross fit and to the folks that participate in this type of activity is not the facility itself but as my husband stated, the community and the individualized attention that everybody gets. And I realize I’m not here to sell you on cross fit, I’m here to sell you on Nick and his company getting a variance at this facility. So, I wanted to also point out to you that at our other gyms that we’ve been at that were both housed in Plymouth where Nick was one of the coaches there, one of the leading trainers, the outreach that these young men and women provide to the community is quite extensive. When Officer Nehasil was killed here in the city, it struck and resonated very intimately with all of these young folks at the cross fit facility that we were at. Several of them are civic employees. Nick, as he stated, is a firefighter. Several of the other folks that attend the facility are police officers and firefighters. Can I have a show of hands who is here from cross fit? We have teachers, firefighters, wait City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 16 of 55 November 26, 2013 - staff, deacons in the church. Quite a cross section of folks who reach out into the community and really try to give back in the cross fit family. So, I wanted to reassure you that the variance you’re asking for here is not something that is going to negatively impact the community or the neighborhood, but it’s truly something that is going to enhance the community and neighborhood. Nick is very committed to the aspect of cross fit that is individualized and I think that that will help us to address the parking concerns that might have been raised at any point in the conversation. And I also wanted you to know that at any point in this conversation when Nick found out weeks ago that the zoning was inaccurate for the type of facility at this time, Nick could have thrown down the towel and just given up or asked and gone to bat with the landlord and try to give up. But he really feels that this facility, this place that he’s at is the optimal place for his facility and I’d really like to throw our support behind this for him. Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. Carol, before you go away I’ve got a question or two. What was the type of building at the other facilities that you went to in Plymouth? Carignan: They are all in industrial. The facility was a gym that moved from – I don’t even know what it was prior to that. Petitioner: It was an auto shop. Carignan: Auto repair company that they put the gym in and then when they out grew that, they then moved into an old lawn mower, commercial lawn mower and service agency. So, I think that’s one of the reasons, too, why Nick felt that when he landed in the window company facility that he is in now, it was similar to the facility that we just left. Henzi: It’s pretty common; isn’t it for cross fit gyms to be in a warehouse. Carignan: Yes, they almost all are because the ceiling variance is a huge issue for us. Henzi: Okay, got it. Thank you. Carignan: Thank you. Henzi: Come on up. Lynch: My name is James Lynch. I live at 14212 Garden Street. I’ve been there for 35 years. What I’ve heard here I’m all in favor of it. These sound like good people. That’s all I got. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else. Are there any letters? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 17 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Caramagno: We have an approval from Joanne Eberhardt [20515 Osmus St.] (letter was read). Michael Struble [1550 Rustic Lane, Walled Lake] approval (letter was read). Henzi: Mr. Carignan, is there anything you would like to say in closing? Petitioner: No, just that as you heard it’s more than just fitness facility. It’s really about community and a lot of my best friends are because of cross fit and I want that community in the community that I live in. That’s it. Henzi: Thank you very much. McIntyre: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre. McIntyre: May I ask the Petitioner a question? Do you have a business plan, Nick? Petitioner: Yes. McIntyre: Okay. And how far out in the future does your business plan go? Petitioner: About three to five years as long as we continue to grow and if we outgrow our facility, we actually want to have another location on the south end of Livonia. McIntyre: And how long will it take according to your business plan for your business to become profitable? Petitioner: With the amount of people that I have waiting right now about six months. McIntyre: Okay. Great. Thank you. Henzi: I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, from what I’ve heard tonight you’ve got nice support here. I was on the Board when we approved a similar situation with the karate center just down the road really from here. That was a building that wasn’t full and needed a tenant. We looked at that and said yeah, why not? Why not give it a shot? I feel the same way here. Let’s fill this building and what really can this hurt? I don’t know that it can hurt anything. Give a young man a business opportunity here. Give a property owner an opportunity to fill their building. I’m in support. I like it. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 18 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: I, too, will be in support. I know you need a certain ceiling height for the cross fit exercises. You obviously bought the property on reliance on your landlord telling you what correct zoning, you know, you’re in a tough spot there. But I think absolutely there is a hardship. You’ve got a lot of support. The people that live right behind the building are in support so, I think it’s impressive to the people behind you and I will be in support. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I would agree. You have great support tonight. It makes logical sense the activities that are going to go on in the building require that type of a ceiling. A little bit of misrepresentation going on there with your agent. That didn’t help anything. All in all to me, I am a big believer that if somebody is going to bring something to Livonia, bring a company to Livonia, we want to support it as much as possible. So, I will support. Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre. McIntyre: No reason not to support. You’ve got a business plan. That’s why I asked you. It’s great when people have – when they’re good at something like training and they have a vision and clearly you have a lot of support, but they haven’t established a business plan. You have a business plan that usually speaks well to the chances of the business going to succeed. I appreciate that you want to put it in Livonia. You’ve given a lot of good reasons why this is a good space, why this is a uniquely qualified space and the other thing that I’d like to do is to thank you and everyone who is here tonight in support of you for being well prepared, for keeping remarks very targeted and you made a very, very strong impression all of you here tonight. Your conduct and your comments and the strength of your support so, that’s very, very effective and we appreciate that at least I do. Henzi: I agree. I thought you made a very good presentation both tonight and in your packet. It makes the decision easy for me. I am in full support. I think it’s a great idea. I think that this is the perfect building and my general philosophy is that there’s a lot of light manufacturing building throughout the city both along 8 Mile and in the industrial corridor south of 96 where 30 years ago they were full with tool and dye shops and the like. Those jobs aren’t coming back. Tool and dye shops are rushing to refill those, but businesses like yours seem to be hopefully. So, I am in full support and I can’t wait until you grab another building on the south end and do this all over again. So, the floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by McIntyre, supported by Caramagno, it was: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 19 of 55 November 26, 2013 - RESOLVED APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-11-61:, Nicholas Carignan, 9979 Cavel, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to conduct fitness training classes within an M-L (Manufacturing Limited) Zoning District which is not allowed. The property is located on the south side of Eight Mile (31745), between Osmus and Parker, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the Petitioner needs a building with a certain height need.. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because the building is ideal for the needs of the Petitioner’s business. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because there is no detriment to the neighboring businesses and fits with the aesthetics of the manufacturing corridor. 4. The Board received two (2) letters of approval and no letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Industrial” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the classes be staggered at least twenty minutes to allow for sufficient parking. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: McIntyre, Caramagno, McCue, Duggan, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: Pastor, Sills Henzi: The variance is granted. You just have that one condition which essentially is to use your best efforts to stagger classes to avoid parking congestion. Good luck to you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 20 of 55 November 26, 2013 - (7:54 #1/1652) APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-11-62: Meijer, Inc. (Culver’s), 13030 Middlebelt, seeking to erect four wall signs, two ground sign menu boards and an identification ground sign with electronic message center which is not allowed because of the excess proposed signage and the electronic message center is more than half of the total ground sign area. Number of Menu Board Signs Menu Board Area Allowed: One Allowed: 30 sq. ft. Proposed: Two Proposed: 71 sq. ft. (One sign 46 sq. ft.; one sign 25 sq. ft.) Excess: One Excess: 6 sq. ft. Number of Wall Signs Wall Sign Area Allowed: One Allowed: 100 sq. ft. Proposed: Four Proposed: 120 sq. ft. Excess: Three Excess: 20 sq. ft. The property is located on the east side of Middlebelt (13030), between Schoolcraft and C & O Railroad. Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: I have nothing to add, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the podium? Good evening. Petitioner: Andrew Zulke, S & Z Restaurants, 4564 Oakcrest Ridge Road, Clarkston, Michigan 48348. We’re looking to apply for a variance for a new Culver’s located at 13030 Middlebelt Road. It is a center out parcel in front of Meijer’s and what we’re looking to do is add four building signs up around the outside wall at the top of the building as shown in the sign application that I dropped off. Also, a menu board that features a pre-board menu board as well as an ordering menu board. And then also a ground sign that has a Culver’s logo with an ENC electronic message board also in that. And the out parcel being that it’s off the main strip of Middlebelt Road we’re looking to have these signs just to help promote our business and to make sure people are aware of what we do. Henzi: If you wouldn’t mind, could you go through the signs and just describe the location and the why it is necessary? Petitioner: Yes, that’s not a problem. We’ll start with the fourth page in, which is the exterior of the building itself. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 21 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Henzi: The one with signs three and two? Petitioner: Correct. Sign number three is the actual kind of the front of the building that actually faces the west and then sign number two is actually kind of on the front sign of the parcel, which faces the private boulevard that you come in off the entrance of Middlebelt Road. Then as you turn to the next page, sign number four and five. Sign number four is on the east side, which is our drive- through side and also sign number five is on the rear sign of the building that faces Meijer’s. If you go to the third page in, which kind of shows you the site diagram it kind of shows you on the outside of the building, you know, where they are located around the perimeter of the building Itself. And each one is labeled, you know, its sign three, four and five. Henzi: What are sign seven, eight and nine? Petitioner: Um. Henzi: Is that the menu boards? Petitioner: The handicapped parking signs. Henzi: Oh. Petitioner: They’re the ones that go on the metal posts in front of the parking spots. Henzi: Can you talk about the menu boards, you know, why you have two and not one? Petitioner: Yeah. Culver’s is a relatively newer franchise and there is a lot of different types of food items that we have on our menu boards. Due to the fact that we make everything and don’t make everything ahead of time so it is made to order. Doing so it helps people chose and decide what they want to do before they actually get up to the front and order. Having a pre-menu board alleviates a lot of situations where it is a relatively new restaurant and people be indecisive as to what they want and help get people through the drive-through lane faster. And there is quite a few restaurants in Livonia that do have the pre-menu boards also. There’s a Kentucky Fried Chicken I believe on Five Mile that has it also. Burger Kind also has it on Middlebelt Board. Henzi: Okay. Any questions? Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 22 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Duggan: Why do you need the electronic sign? Petitioner: Electronic medium sign announces our flavor of the day, which is very important to Culver’s. It kind of gives people the idea that, you know, hey here is our flavor of the day. It could be brownie fudge or something like that and they get inclined to come in and try that new variety of ice cream that we have to offer. Duggan: All right. Thank you. Petitioner: Yeah. McIntyre: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre. McIntyre: Okay. The building signs again. Which sign number three, two, four or five is on the drive-through side? Petitioner: Sign number four is on the drive-through side. McIntyre: Okay. Petitioner: As you can see, the car is on that side of the building. McIntyre: Yes, that’s the east; right? Petitioner: That would be the east; correct. McIntyre: Okay. And then the flavor of the day would be which sign? Petitioner: What do you mean? McIntyre: On the last page. Petitioner: Yeah, as far as the sign goes? McIntyre: Yes. Petitioner: Well, those signs kind of show you, you know, the electronic media center on a couple of different Culver signs. So, we would like to build this stone type of a sign out there that shows it. And I can show you the stone sample that we have. McIntyre: And that would face -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 23 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Petitioner: That would face west and east. And that would be number one, sign number one. Up in the upper left-hand corner of the drawing, of the site drawing. McInytre: Right there, right there and this would be – okay, I’m sorry. Petitioner: No problem. McIntyre: One would be where on this diagram? Petitioner: On the photograph picture itself it would be above the word future circled. McIntyre: Okay, so like right there? The intent is not to have it visible from Middlebelt but Industrial? Petitioner: It would be right there. McIntyre: Right there, right? Petitioner: Correct, yes. McIntyre: So, on Industrial. Petitioner: Right. McIntyre: Okay. Henzi: Is that what you were asking how it’s orientated which way it is pointing? McIntyre: Yes, Industrial so the intent is that you see it from Industrial not from Middlebelt. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: There’s going to be, I believe, an Outback going in that large parcel to the left. So, that’s what our biggest point is that we have pretty much zero visibility from Middlebelt Road. Henzi: Any other questions? Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: You won’t have any signage on that – right at the light there’s that big -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 24 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Petitioner: Yeah, Millennium Park sign. Duggan: Yeah. Petitioner: Yeah. No, we don’t have anything out there. Duggan: Okay. Petitioner: We’ve asked for that but, they said it’s all pretty much filled and it’s already dedicated to the other people inside there. Duggan: Thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. I see no one coming forward. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: I don’t think we have any with this case. Henzi: Okay. Caramagno: No, we do not. Henzi: Mr. Zulke, is there anything you would like to say in closing? Petitioner: No, I think it’s going to be beneficial to a whole community. It’s not going to be deleterious to the – I visualize a lot of people coming in there and I think it will be just an outstanding type of a building that we’re going to be putting in the community of Livonia. Henzi: Thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Duggan. Duggan: I will be in support of your plan. When I looked at it originally it was a lot of signage but when you compare it to the unique location where your property is and where it will be located at the big strip mall right there and right across the street you have Menard’s which has a ton of signage as well. I mean on top of it with the other fast food restaurants that have drive throughs, I know MacDonald’s has more signage than you do especially relating to menu boards. The walls signs between the unique location of your property is not unreasonable so, I will be in support. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I, too, will be in support. I agree it’s a unique location. In addition, as you mentioned, I’m certain there’s going to be other new businesses coming into City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 25 of 55 November 26, 2013 - that location, which again, granted right now it seems like it’s right there and everybody can see it but, I see in the near future a lot of that going up and I’m with Mr. Duggan and the fact that we have approved different variances with signage that definitely is, you know, as equal if not less than what you have in regards to the sign and the location. So, I will be in support. Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre. McIntyre: I think I should recuse myself because I first went to Culver’s in about 2004 in Muskegon and it was the best hamburger I ever had and then I had custard and then I was hooked. My only comment is that I would be, if my colleagues don’t have a problem with this I’m certainly not going to quibble because I am happy to see Culver’s coming. I think it’s an example why people don’t like chain businesses, but every Culver’s I’ve ever been in all over and I seek them out they’re a step above and I don’t mean anything disrespectful to any of the other food restaurants, but they’re clean and I think every time you build they get better looking and they just seem to be well maintained. So, I think this is beneficial to our community to get it. The only one that I would say that seems to me to be a bit excessive is sign number four on the east of the drive through. I think the others - it’s very clear why you need those. I have no objection to the menu board. Overall, I think your sign package looks great, but if you feel that’s an important part of your component and that the people driving on – if you need that to identify, then I’m certainly not going to object to your overall package based on that. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Mcintyre: Is that Millennium Drive? Banko: I believe so. McIntyre: Okay. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I think it’s a good-looking sign package and Culver’s all of their buildings look exceptionally well in my opinion. This is an area of growth in the city. I think you want to be recognized in all four directions on your building. I don’t think this is a crazy plan by any stretch. I think there is quality put into it. The brick that you’re showing here on the signs this is not your average just stapled together aluminum signs. This is going to be done nice. I think it enhances the overall plan so I’m also good with it. Henzi: I agree with a lot of the comments made by the other Board members and I, too, will support this. To me, it’s becoming more and more popular to add these out building or out-lot structures. That’s a way a lot of our malls are build City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 26 of 55 November 26, 2013 - nowadays and in my humble opinion I analyze those differently. This is different than just your straightforward storefront where we look at how many signs is necessary. This is a huge complex and this is a small part of it and therefore, I understand the need to have a sign on the back of the property because you’ll have folks at other stores who are driving around Millennium Park who are looking for it. I agree with Mrs. McIntyre, sign five was appropriate even though it’s on the back end because of where this property sits. I thought four was superfluous because you’ve got the drive-through cue you’ve got the menu boards. I don’t know how you could look at that side and not know it’s a Culver’s but, that’s a very small problem that I have with this project. I’d also like to thank the Petitioner because we get lots of requests and very rarely do we get wall sign area where the access is only 20 sq. ft. I mean it’s usually a significant excess and that shows to me that Culver’s has got a formula that works and also that they’re reasonable and work with the city. So, the floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by McCue, supported by Duggan, it was: APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-11-62: Meijer, Inc. (Culver’s), 13030 Middlebelt, seeking to erect four wall signs, two ground sign menu boards and an identification ground sign with electronic message center which is not allowed because of the excess proposed signage and the electronic message center is more than half of the total ground sign area. Number of Menu Board Signs Menu Board Area Allowed: One Allowed: 30 sq. ft. Proposed: Two Proposed: 71 sq. ft. (One sign 46 sq. ft.; one sign Excess: One 25 sq. ft.) Excess: 6 sq. ft. Number of Wall Signs Wall Sign Area Allowed: One Allowed: 100 sq. ft. Proposed: Four Proposed: 120 sq. ft. Excess: Three Excess: 20 sq. ft. The property is located on the east side of Middlebelt (13030), between Schoolcraft and C and O Railroad, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met based on the location of the property being an out lot from the larger strip center and the number of different locations that the traffic will flow in and out of and the need for identity in all of those locations. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because the identity of that particular location could become an issue if they did not have these variances granted. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 27 of 55 November 26, 2013 - 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because there is no one opposed to the signing request and such variances have approved in the past. 4. The Board received no letters of approval and no letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Regional Shopping” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the variance is good for 12 months. 2. That the requirements of the Planning Commission be met. 3. That the signs be erected and placed according to the plans as presented to the Board. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: McCue, Duggan, McIntyre, Caramagno, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: Pastor, Sills Henzi: It’s granted. I will read the conditions one more time. It’s good for one year. That doesn’t mean that it expires it means you’ve got one year within which to complete the construction. You have to comply with the requirements as set forth by Planning Commission and you’ve to erect the signs as presented. That means the type of signs and the place where you represented them both in your packet and through your oral presentation. Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: Good luck. Petitioner: Thank you very much. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 28 of 55 November 26, 2013 - (8:13 #2300) APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-11-63: Eleanor Dow, 30872 Puritan, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct an addition onto the rear of the existing dwelling and attached garage addition resulting in excess lot coverage. Lot Coverage Allowed: 20% (2600 sq. ft.) Proposed: 23% (3015 sq. ft.) Excess: 3% (415 sq. ft.) The property is located on the north side of Puritan (30872), between Merriman and East End. Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add? Banko: I have nothing, sir. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? I had one. Steve, I just want to make sure this is just adding a bay to the garage; right? Banko: I’m looking at the same thing you are. That’s what it appears to be. Henzi: On the survey there’s an addition in the back that’s colored in paint, but I didn’t see any plans for that. Banko: I agree with you. When I looked at the pink parcel and that add on in the back and I really didn’t understand. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. Will the Petitioner please come forward? Can you say your name and address? Petitioner: Eleanor Dow, 30872 Puritan, Livonia. The addition on the back there was not a problem there with any overage and size. The person who owned the property initially was handicapped. Once the house was built, he took all the dirt out of the yard piled it up next to the house, laid out a patio, and now we’re having water starting to seep into the basement. So, we knew we had to change all the grate in the backyard and change this patio. We decided to make it into an enclosed room. As far as we know, that’s not a problem. The footage and everything was fair. But I’ve had both knees replaced and about a year and-a- half ago I took a fall and broke my nose occipital bone, lacerated my face from forehead and chin across here. I fell into a wastebasket. Anyway, it has left some residual dizziness and things like this accompanied with the knees the doctor said try not to go up and down the stairs too often or rarely. We have things that are stored in the basement. We’ve moved a lot of them upstairs to the garage and right now trying to get to from the car to the house around the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 29 of 55 November 26, 2013 - snow blower and the lawn mover and all the rest of the stuff is getting kind of difficult. So, we thought at first to make shed decided that’s kind of unsightly a little bit and it would have put us over also. So, we thought about putting the extra bay on because it looks better for the neighbors. It will be brick in keeping with the house and it would help to store the things that have to be stored in the garage and still give me good access in and out of the house without things that I am going to trip over. And that’s basically what this is about. We still do clear more than 10 ft. on the side of the house and the property. All of our neighbors have said oh, that’s great love to do it, like to see it. In fact, we plan an open house for when it’s finally done. That’s basically our story. Henzi: Okay. Mrs. Dow, do you have a builder that you’ve hired? Petitioner: Yes, we do. We’ve got permits and everything else and all the plans submitted. Our builder is here as a matter of fact. Henzi: And then you’re going to match the brick to exist; right? You want this bay to look like it was there from the beginning; right? Petitioner: All the time. Yeah, so will the addition probably. Henzi: What is the status of the addition? Which comes first I guess? Petitioner: The addition comes first and if we can, it would be nice to be able to pour the cement for both of these at the same time. It would save the builder. It would get things a little more under way and we wouldn’t have to make separate cement deliveries and all that kind of stuff. The plan is to get the room started. It would help to be able to at least put the foundation in for the garage. We haven’t done anything at this point waiting for you to make a decision and see what we have to do. Henzi: Okay. Any questions? When do you want to pour? I mean before -- Petitioner: Tomorrow. Henzi: Got it. Okay. McIntyre: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre: McIntyre: So just to be clear, the total with the addition and the additional garage space we’re only talking about an excess of 3%? Petitioner: Right. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 30 of 55 November 26, 2013 - McIntyre: Okay. Henzi: Anything else? Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the podium. McGowan: My name is Don McGowan. I am the builder that is doing the addition in the rear of the house. We’re raising the addition and doing a slab to make it all one level so there is no steps for her climb. At the same time, we’re taking the opportunity to cut the grade down. If anyone has been out and saw it’s kind of a sharp angle to the house. The garage is level with the house in front, which is unusual and I don’t know what it was built like that and the grade was brought up fairly sharply. When we dug the dirt away and lowering the brick ledge and brick in the back addition, I can straighten the grade out and make it a flatter area. And the northeast corner of the lot kind of holds water because the steep grade is blocking from running to the street. So, if we do the side addition to the garage, it will give us the opportunity to drop that brick ledge, flatten the lot out, and get positive drainage from the back corner of the lot toward the front. So, it will help drainage, it will help the lot. Right now it’s kind of difficult at the grade it is for her to walk around even in the summertime. But if we can do the garage and I can lower the grade, I can flatten the lot out, take care of the water problem and we’re going to put a French drain all along the east side of the house because that lot goes right to the neighbor on a fairly steep angle. So, if we can flatten that out, get the water to drain to the front, put the French drain in, that will take care of a lot of the problems around the yard and the house besides her personal problem of the steps and not being able to go in the basement anymore. It’s a great opportunity to straighten drainage out. Henzi: Thanks for the explanation. McGowan: Yeah, and as far as the brick, we’re removing the brick off the existing garage and going to reuse the same brick to do the front and they make that brick but run numbers can be a little different, but we’re going to reuse the old brick on the front so it matches perfectly. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. McGowan: Thank you. Henzi: Is there anybody else who wants to speak? I see no one else coming forward. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: David Soubeyrand [30961 Puritan] (letter was rea d) an approval. Michael White [30909 Puritan] approval (letter was read). Alan Dembski [30941 Puritan] sends an approval. Robert King (& Colleen) [30871 Greenland Street] approval (letter was read). Roy (& Barbara) Finkenbine [30850 Puritan] approval (letter was read). City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 31 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Henzi: Mrs. Dow, is there anything you would like to say in closing? Petitioner: Only that this would not be a benefit to me and to the house, but to the neighbors because they have been complaining for almost – we’ve lived there almost 10 years – that the water just lays by their fence line and makes a big puddle out in front when it finally drains down. We’ve worked on it somewhat but this will settle the problem once and for all. And I think it is beneficial to not only us but, to the people around us. Henzi: I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mrs. McCue. McCue: I will be in full support. Everything that you presented tonight makes logical sense between your medical situation as well as just the lay out of the backyard and the drainage and everything. I will be in support. Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre. McIntyre: Delighted that you can find a way to reconfigure your house a little bit that allows you to suit your needs and keeps you in Livonia. I always appreciate a good package, a buttoned up approach really nice to hear that you’re taking this opportunity. From everything your builder said in his presentation, I think you selected a very good builder who’s going to take this opportunity – I did notice the grade issues - to, you know, just improve the situation for you and for your neighbors and by extension the neighborhood and the city so 3% is a minimal overage especially given the necessity. So, full support. Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: This makes sense to me as well. It’s a medical health convenience for your folks and 3% is a minor, a minor variance and you’ve got fantastic support from your neighborhood so, I will be in support as well. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: I, too, will be in support 3% that we’re granting the variance is minimal compared to the upside for you. So, I will absolutely be in support. Henzi: I, too, will support it for all the reasons stated. I think it is a minimal deficiency and I always like it when additions look as if it was meant to be all along and I think that this one will. And I also appreciate Mr. McGowan’s comments. It’s always good to hear from the builder about other engineering concerns. It’s persuasive for me anyway. Thank you. The floor is open for a motion. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 32 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Upon Motion by Duggan, supported by McCue, it was: RESOLVED APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-11-63: Eleanor Dow, 30872 Puritan, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct an addition onto the rear of the existing dwelling and attached garage addition resulting in excess lot coverage. Lot Coverage Allowed: 20% (2600 sq. ft.) Proposed: 23% (3015 sq. ft.) Excess: 3% (415 sq. ft.) The property is located on the north side of Puritan (30872), between Merriman and East End, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the current lot was originally part of one farm lot that was subdivided. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because the Petitioner as mobility problems and denial would negatively affect her health. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because there is no opposition and there is neighbor support. 4. The Board received four (4) letters of approval and no letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low Density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the plans be met as presented to the Board. 2, The variance is good for six months. 3. That the 5-day waiting period be waived. 4. That once the building is constructed it will be enclosed within 90 days. 5. That the standard electrical requirement be met. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 33 of 55 November 26, 2013 - ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Duggan, McCue, McIntyre, Caramagno, Heinz NAYS: None ABSENT: Pastor, Sills Henzi: The variance is granted with the conditions and I will read them one more time. You’ve got to build it as presented. It’s good for six months, which means you’ve got six months within which to complete it. We’ve waived the five-day waiting period so you can pull a permit tomorrow if you’d like. When constructed you’ve to enclose it within 90 days and then you’re limited to standard electrical, which is probably what you have in your garage already. McGowan: Yes. Henzi: So, just go and see the building department and you can pull the permit. Good luck. Petitioner: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 34 of 55 November 26, 2013 - (8:29 #2836) APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-11-64: Robert and Heidi Palmer, 14219 Alexander, seeking to erect a six-foot wood privacy fence along the rear property line without obtaining the written approval of the adjoining property owner. The property is located on the west side of Alexander, (14219), between Meadowlark and Buckingham. Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: I have nothing to add, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come forward? Petitioner: Good evening. My name is Robert Palmer. I live at 14219 Alexander, Livonia, Michigan. I would like to obtain an abatement to put up my fence. The reason for this is the back neighbor did not sign and we have a problem with a vicious dog. It’s scaring my family and we need the fence. Basically, they have had the dog for about a year and it continues to bark, charges the fence. I have a seven year old and a 12 year old scaring the children. Can’t go in the back yard. Basically, we determined Labor Day weekend this year it’s a huge problem. We have a 4-ft. fence right now. My son is on the swings they’re both 15 ft. from the back. The dog is standing on the fence growling. The next day we went to Lowe’s and started a procedure for the fence. In early July, I went to the back neighbor’s and they wouldn’t sign to say I would be able to put the fence. So, that’s why we’re here. Henzi: Have you spoken with the neighbor to the rear since you made the application? Petitioner: What do you mean? Henzi: About the fence. Well, I know that you’ve got an application that states that you broached the subject on a couple of occasions and in your words, you say once we told him it was about his dog he didn’t want to sign it. Now, I’m asking have you talked to him since. Petitioner: Basically, he told me to go back to Canada. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: He was very rude to me and said, you know, he was just incredibly rude to me. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 35 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Henzi: How long have you lived there? Petitioner: About 12 years. Henzi: But he’s only had the dog for a year. Petitioner: A year. He had another dog before that, which was fine. He barked it was a big German Sheppard, too, but it was a very sweet dog. This one is not. Henzi: After you had an exchange did you just figure there’s no talking to this guy I can’t get anywhere. Petitioner: I’ve never talked to him again. He was so incredibly rude, you know, after he said he wouldn’t sign it that was the end of it and then we just went this process. Henzi: Okay. Any questions? Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: What alternatives are there? I know you have some bushes back there what about like about trees along that fence line or something other than the 6-ft. privacy fence? Petitioner: The dog can stand up on the fence right now. It’s only getting bigger. Duggan: Right, but I’m saying -- Petitioner: So, what’s stopping it from jumping over? Duggan: Well, what about putting trees that are bigger back there? I’m mean it’s got to be similar in cost than getting a big privacy fence. Petitioner: What I’m trying to say is the dog can jump through it. I want to protect my family. At this point, we can’t go out in our backyard without a shovel to protect ourselves -- Duggan: Right, but what I’m thinking – the dog is aggressive I assume because he sees people. Petitioner: Exactly. Duggan: So my question is how do you -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 36 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Petitioner: That’s why we want the wood fence so the dog can’t see us. Duggan: I got it. Okay. Let me speak, please. Petitioner: I’m sorry. Henzi: Let him finish. There’s a court reporter. Let him finish and then speak. Duggan: My question to you is, what other alternatives have you thought about to get rid of the problem when he sees people that the dog gets aggressive? What other alternatives besides the privacy fence have you thought about? Have you thought about bigger trees back there? What other alternatives have you thought about besides the 6-ft fence? Petitioner: Well, unfortunately, the trees wouldn’t stop the dog from coming through. Duggan: But if he doesn’t see and you have something blocking his vision, there’s nothing for him to get aggressive at. Petitioner: But I can’t let my kids sit in the house for three years while the trees grow. Duggan: You can’t just go buy – doesn’t Lowe’s have big -- Petitioner: They won’t really fill in. Duggan: Don’t people have arborvitae or something? Can’t you just go and get them and put them in? Petitioner: What I’m trying to say is it won’t stop the dog from coming through. Duggan: But I’m saying, that there are other alternatives if your neighbor doesn’t agree to a privacy fence and you want to solve your spat with your neighbor I’m trying to figure out some other alternative for you. Petitioner: We could get rid of the dog. I’m trying to protect my family from the dog so they can go out in their yard and enjoy the yard. We haven’t gone in the yard this year because of this dog. Every time we go out we have got to be on guard. We have a trampoline we didn’t even put it up. It wasn’t worth putting up because of the dog or we’d have to sit right by the trampoline so the dog isn’t barking at us. When we go to our cars, which the dog can’t even see, the dog barks and runs to the fence. Henzi: Anything else? When were the pictures taken in the packet? There’s some color photos a couple of your kids playing and one in the backyard. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 37 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Palmer (Heidi): He was a baby. He was on the swings, so he’s seven. Petitioner: A couple years ago? Palmer (Heidi): Five, four? I don’t take a lot of pictures in the backyard. My purpose was to show the fence line in the proximity of the swing set to that fence. Henzi: So, a couple years ago? Petitioner: A couple years ago? Palmer (Heidi): Oh, yeah. Petitioner: Yeah. Henzi: All right. Anything else? Is there anybody who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. Palmer (Heidi): Good evening. Henzi: Good evening. Palmer (Heidi): Thank you so much for seeing us. As you can see, this is a very emotional issue protecting our children. Henzi: Your name and address, please. Palmer (Heidi): I’m sorry. My name is Heidi Palmer, I’m Rob’s wife. My address is 14219 Alexander. We’re 16-year residents of Livonia. I was expecting Kate, our 12-year old, when we moved into this home. We’ve loved living there. We’ve always had a terrific relationship with all of our neighbors on all of the sides including the Holmes who live behind us. The last dog that they had was elderly. I think they adopted her or something, but she was a very nice dog and they made a real effort as pet owners to make sure our kids were comfortable with the dog as well as us. She barked which annoyed one of our senior neighbors who is now deceased, but dogs do that. I was raised with dogs. I have no issue with dogs. I love them. The problem with this situation is when they got this dog, I could tell the minute I met it, it was different than the last one. I believe it’s a purebred German Sheppard. It reminds us of an attack dog. This is not a family pet. I’m sure it is to them, to the neighbors we feel threatened. As my husband articulated, I mean I come in from bringing the kids in from school or from grocery shopping what have you there’s not even a direct sight line to his backyard our driveway is shielded by our garage. We have a detached garage. If the dog is out, and oh by the way, they leave the door wall open morning till night. The dog is never supervised. It just comes and goes at will. It hears me City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 38 of 55 November 26, 2013 - and the thing charges the fence and barks. I’ve been dealing with this for months. We can’t use our yard. I am terrified to go out in the yard. I love to garden haven’t garden for a season. We have to go to the park. We had to join a pool club to go find something for them to do. And I just wanted to make a couple of points. In my letter I omitted a couple of things. There were arborvitae, Mr. Duggan, I know you brought that up. When we bought the house there were three, four arborvitae and they were up above the wires so 20, I don’t know how far that is 20 ft. plus. Unfortunately, he lost he sewer and then we lost ours. I remember you coming out to our house actually, Mr. Banko, as the inspection and we lost all of our trees. So, we now are exposed. It wasn’t a problem they had the other dog. Compounding that, it settled the dirt has settled so it sags in the middle. It’s an old chain-link fence. I’m guessing it’s at least 40 years old. The house was built in ’62 and it’s old and there are two spots in the fence in the middle where it seems to be a problem with this animal and they have been patched with chicken wire. We didn’t do it. I don’t know who did. I’m assuming he did, but we have not done it. That indicates to me that the fence is aging and it’s a potential safety issue and the dog comes on the fence all fours. I don’t think she’s realized yet she can jump over. My fear is if she’s provoke, will she and then what do I do? We go out in the yard the four or five times we’ve went out last summer we take a cell phone in case we have to call 911, and I’m not exaggerating. I have a baseball bat on the patio table and my husband has a shovel. That’s no way to live. And his response is going to be well, if you put up a privacy fence it’s going to diminish the value of my house. My reaction to that is I don’t think so. My neighbor’s to the north have a wooden privacy fence and our yard looks just fine. His yard is probably I’m guessing from the door wall to the fence line 25 ft. maybe. They’re shallower a garden. On the Alexander side, it’s probably double from our house. So, he’s getting a visual impression that his yard is much bigger than it is and our yard is beautifully landscaped. We have worked really hard to do that. My response is and I’m very sorry I’m very upset. I’m trying to control myself and be calm here. I don’t feel that I should have to sacrifice our family’s safety and my property value so he can retain his with an animal that he refuses to control. I have called the animal control people and I am not keeping a log. They’ve gone out I guess and spoken to them. My next step is to go and talk about having an aggressive animal ordinance and have the animal assessed. It’s that bad. Short of that, we can’t use our yard and that’s one reason we bought this house. We’ve got kids. We believe in our children going outside and being able to play. Henzi: What does animal control say? Palmer (Heidi): I talked to her about a week and-a-half ago and she’s having me keep a log. When I’m in the house it’s winter, it’s not really a real situation because the windows are shut, but she’s very big, big barks. Whenever I hear her I write down when she was out and if it’s excessively long, I will write down the duration. I owe her a phone call next week and then I guess we’re going to discuss is this normal, I’m not sure what the next step is. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 39 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Henzi: How old are your kids? Palmer (Heidi): Kate is 12 and Brendon is seven. Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: What are the experiences of your other neighbors with the dog? Palmer (Heidi): The one to the north, he’s the one with the fence, he can’t stand it but he’s limited from it because he is shielded because he has a fence. The neighbors to the south, I’ve never talked to them, Rob probably has. They have a two year old and I know that they’ve taken the little girl like one of those play houses the Playskool big things and they’ve parked it in the corner to kind of block it off. I know they watch her when the dog it out. They’ve had parties and whatnot and I’ve heard comments over the fence about it. The neighbors to the back and the rear I don’t know who lives in the one side on the north on his side but, the one to the south I think he’s a long-time friend of his. He has a wood pile behind his shed which kind of is our shared four corner area of our yard and h is wood pile is now way over the fence line, too. Henzi: Thank you. Palmer (Heidi): You bet. Thank you very much. Henzi: Anybody else want to speak for or against this project? Holmes (Mary Ann): My name is Mary Ann Holmes. I’m at 14228 Garden Street, Livonia, Michigan. We are the dog owners. I just have a couple things. I saw when he was talking Labor Day, I was at the kitchen window and the dog was sitting at the fence and he was yelling at the dog to go in the house. And she said, you know, quit doing that because the dog might jump. The dog didn’t do anything. It sat there. She has been in training since then. She was eight months old, an eight month old puppy. She will lick you to death. I have nieces and nephews that come to my house from two years old to 12 years old. They eat food out of her bowl with her and she will not growl. She will lick you to death. She could take food out of your mouth. She does not like a lawn mower. She will bark up a storm on a lawn mower. We have had her in training and our trainer has told us what to do. We have tried saying bring your kids over so Abby gets to know you. She used to bark quite a bit at our one neighbors but since the training she’s not doing that and my husband will go out there and tell her not to do it. She’s not doing it any more. I don’t like a dog that barks constantly. We have had neighbors that had that. When I hear her bark, I try to run downstairs and bring her in and when we hear her bark any time of the day. I try not to have City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 40 of 55 November 26, 2013 - her bark before nine in the morning unless I have to get to work early and I try to bring her in by 8:30, 9 at night. I don’t like barking after that. If I hear one or two barks, she’s in. I have to go to bed early I don’t like the barking. We have offered. We don’t want a wood fence. We have landscaped sculpted backyard. It will kill all of our bushes and we have offered to erect like another 3 ft. fence extend the fence. The reason we have the wires there is because when we had the sewer put in, they had to cut through because the sewer pipe is in their backyard, which they allowed us to do. And our other dog barked more than this dog. I don’t understand. Besides chasing her tail constantly, she will lick you to death. She has never growled at anybody. She barks at people she doesn’t know, but she has never growled. She will jump on you but, she has never – my husband will have more. Henzi: Are any of the other neighbors here tonight? Holmes (Mary Ann): Yes. Henzi: Okay. Holmes (Mary Ann): I mean the one next to us knows. She was talking about the pool they used to have a dog years ago he’s fine with the dog. He asked me if he could give the dog treats. I’m like yeah and he knows the dog barks at the lawn mower. The dog cannot stand a lawn mower and she’s just getting used to a vacuum cleaner. As our other dog did not like the lawn mower, but she didn’t bark she would just run in the house and my husband is home, he’s retired. He’s home 24 hours a day and the dog does have access to go in and out, but he’s not out that much. Henzi: What do you do when your neighbor is mowing the lawn? Holmes (Mary Ann): We probably bring her in. Henzi: And was the training that you had? Holmes (Mary Ann): We had her in this past summer in June at Pet Smart – May, June. Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: What do you do during the day? Do you leave the dog outside? Does he have access to go in and out? Holmes (Mary Ann): No, my husband is home. And in the summer, yeah, we will – he’s there. He’s either in the kitchen or in the family room. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 41 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Duggan: Okay. Thank you. Holmes (Mary Ann): But he’s home all the time. Henzi: Thank you. Holmes (John): Good evening. My name is John Holmes. I live at 14228 Garden Street, Livonia, Michigan. As you heard from my wife, we have what is currently a 14-month old German Shepherd puppy. And as if you’ve ever been a dog owner, you have a puppy and they see a squirrel they bark. If the people from Brighthouse come in, she’s going to let me know about it or utility people. We’ve been in Livonia since 1989. There’s a Livonia fence ordinance for a reason. Okay? If a privacy fence is going to stop a dog from barking, we forget that there is also scent and sound that will cause them to bark. I mean they have a hell of a lot better nose than we do. Our dog is a puppy. She will lick you to death. She has never growled at anybody. I will feed her with a biscuit from my mouth. She is just a darling puppy 14 months old. Okay? We have never had a problem with our other dog, which my son rescued. I made the offer to bring the dog over to make sure that the children were comfortable. I don’t want to have somebody uncomfortable with a pet. It shouldn’t be that way. We have the current chain-link fence as the house in the subdivision was designed. Our house was built in 1977. Our house was the model home of that subdivision. If you know where IHOP is off of Middlebelt and Perth. That subdivision, our home, was the model of the subdivision with blueprinted landscaping front and rear and I have a lot of sensitive bushes and shrubs, not to mention the ornamental trees that are just an entire rainbow of color when they bloom. To put up this privacy fence would not only detract from the value of my house, our home that we paid for, we are not going to get our money back when we sell the home when they supposedly – say they were moving in three years I’m stuck with wood fence I don’t want. I don’t want to maintain and that I never wanted in the first place. All you have to do is go down Middlebelt take a look at some of the wood fences and the condition. I have no intention of having to stain, maintain. I don’t want it. Never did. I don’t want to be in an adversarial position, but I certainly don’t believe that putting up a wood fence is going to solve this problem. In fact, that’s why we have the ordinance for a reason. I oppose it. My wife opposes it. You’ll hear from some other people momentarily that will oppose it. When this person leaves, I’m stuck with it. When DRC was open, we used to have wild pheasants in the backyard. I don’t know if any of you remember DRC, but they used to come and they use to flock in our backyard. I’ve got squirrels and rabbits. Yeah, my dog barks. I am retired. I am home. That dog does not bark. If it barks three times, I am on it period because of the sensitivity of the situation. Nobody else has ever complained. In fact, the note we got from the City of Livonia the complainant name was anonymous because I’ve already answered to that letter that we got from the City. There’s a record on file. I have the complaint here that there is an owner that is hypersensitive and is going to be City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 42 of 55 November 26, 2013 - keeping tabs because we don’t want a privacy fence. I don’t want. Our subdivision doesn’t have and this is a pretty sad remedy for bushes and being ecology. My floral stuff is going to die and I hope you do not approve this variance. Thank you. Henzi: What if they put up a vinyl fence? Holmes (John): It’s still going to stop the light. I have arborvitaes that are this high. I’m sorry I don’t have the blueprint with me to show you. I do have her certificate of completion from Pet Smart if you want to see that for discipline school for obedience school. She’s a loving puppy. Henzi: No, I’m asking about the fence. I said, what if they put up a vinyl fence? Holmes (John): A vinyl fence will still stop the sunlight from getting down to where it needs to be. Henzi: And you’re thinking that will hurt your landscaping? Holmes (John): Yes, most definitely. Henzi: Why do you think the that vinyl fence will detract from the neighborhood and when I ask that, know that there are people who come in here every Tuesday who are tripping over themselves to get a vinyl fence. Holmes (John): Well, they may be tripping over themselves – first off the landscaping in their backyard doesn’t exist. It was torn out when the sewer came in. I maintain -- Henzi: No, you said, a fence will diminish the value of your home and I’m saying there are people -- Holmes (John): A wooden fence. Henzi: Okay. There are people who can’t wait to get a privacy fence. So, tell me why you think a wooden fence will diminish the value of your home? Holmes (John): Well, I have to maintain it. It will stop the light coming in for the several feet of the landscaping that will cause the bushes to die and if you want proof of that, you can go next door and look at the fence that is next door of his property to see all the dead vegetation to my neighbor to the north due to their fence. Henzi: And you like the open aspect of the neighborhood. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 43 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Holmes (John): I like it open in the summertime. You cannot see through the fence except for maybe like a wreath there and wreath there because it all just blooms and explodes. I spend a lot of time in the yard and horticulture. I spend a lot of time with my dog. They have a personal concern that is unwarranted and you’ve heard a lot of rhetoric regarding the aggressiveness of this dog and I will let some other people address you. Henzi: Well, because this is a dispute between you and them -- Holmes (John): I’m sorry? Henzi: Because this is between you and the Petitioner I’ve got some more questions for you. Holmes (John): Sure. Henzi: You haven’t seen their packet. We have. I mean you come in here tonight and act like they live in a different neighborhood. You said that their concerns are unwarranted. There is something else going on here because from where I sit these people went to a lot of trouble to make complaints about the dog. I can’t imagine why anybody would go the to trouble -- Holmes (John): I’m sorry I don’t’ know if this is -- Henzi: -- let me finish. I can’t imagine why anybody would go to the trouble of filing an application like this if they weren’t incredibly fearful of your dog and you act as if they’ve got no right to be scared at all. So, how are we supposed to figure this out? Holmes (John): Uh, that’s a very good question. If there were other complaints, which I don’t think you have any. I don’t think you have a complaint on file period with their name on it. Henzi: Well, let’s say they’re anonymous. That’s one. Holmes (John): Okay. I don’t know who is the anonymous? Henzi: These people say they didn’t even go outside they are so scared of your dog. We don’t get comments like that from people. People don’t say I can’t go outside because I’m so scared of the neighbor’s dog. When we get a dog dispute, it’s “we hate their dog, it barks all night. These people say I can’t even go in my backyard. Holmes (John): I guess that’s their choice. As you know, a puppy will bark at a squirrel. It will bark at the air. The dog is not aggressive. I don’t know what else I can say. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 44 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Henzi: Okay. Holmes (John): I mean if you want additional testimonial, I guess I would have to obtain that from fellow neighbors around me which, if that’s required I will produce it. I thought an ordinance was to be an ordinance and it’s going to detract from our property value in the subs. We’ve had several foreclosures -- Henzi: Mr. Holmes, we’re going around and around. I get your argument. It makes a lot of sense. These people are saying you’re doing me what you don’t want me to do to you because I can’t even use my backyard because your dog is so terrible. And now it’s up to us to try and solve this dispute. You want to be able to use your backyard. They want to be able to use theirs. Holmes (John): True. Henzi: So, that leads my back to my original point. Is there something more to this story? Holmes (John): Not from our side. Henzi: Did you get along until a year ago? Holmes (John): I’d never say we got along, but we weren’t enemies. I mean they live there okay, fine. Never bothered them. In fact when we had our sewer put in for their inconvenience my wife and I sent them a $50.00 gift certificate to Outback saying sorry for the inconvenience when we had the sewer put in and, you know, we did that on our own. And from that time, we had really no words, no conversation, no reason. I don’t want to be here tonight. Henzi: Yeah, okay. Holmes (John): There’s never been anything going on. Henzi: Yeah. I appreciate it. Any questions? Holmes (John): The other dog was fine I just think we’ve got something going on. Henzi: Wait. Don’t go anywhere. Mr. Duggan. Duggan: Did you ever talk to the animal control? Did animal control ever come to your house? Holmes (John): No, no, sir. Duggan: Okay. Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 45 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Caramagno: Mr. Chair, I have a question. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Has the dog gotten better as it has aged and gone to obedience school? Has he calmed down some? Holmes (John): It’s a she. No question, no question, the puppy is playing. I’m home 24/7. I’m so sensitive she barks one time and I’m on it as fast as possible. I say, “Get in here. What’s the matter with you?” Caramagno: How does the dog go outside? Holmes (John): I will let it out. Caramagno: You open the door and you have to let it out? Holmes (John): Yes. Caramagno: I think I heard it earlier the door wall is wide open and the dog comes and goes as it pleases. Holmes (John): In the summertime when we’re home, she can go in and out of the house while we’re present of the door wall when I’m sitting in the backyard. Caramagno: The door wall just stays open? Holmes (John): No. When I’m in the yard or my wife is in the family room, she’s allowed to go in and out, yes. But if there’s any barking or situations, we’re Johnny-on-the-spot. I guess I don’t know how to convince you of that. I don’t know what else I can say. Caramagno: Well, I’m just thinking about first impressions. When you have a new dog and it barks like crazy maybe or acts like a young dog, that was the reason for my question has the dog gotten better? Holmes (John): Yes, to answer your question, yes. Do I think she was ever that bad? No, but yes, she is more obedient every day that we work with her. Caramagno: Thank you. Holmes (John): Thank you. Henzi: I have one more, Mr. Holmes. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 46 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Holmes (John): Yes, sir. Henzi: Could your dog jump that fence? Holmes (John): I don’t believe so. Henzi: I mean that’s something for you to worry about as much as they worry about – Holmes (John): Yes, it is. No question. Henzi: You don’t think that’s a problem? Holmes (John): No. Henzi: Okay. Holmes (John): Okay. No. I mean many dogs will stand and put their feet up there and that’s what she will do. And she will lick you to death. That’s what she does. She’s never growled at anybody. Henzi: Okay. Holmes (John): Nobody. Anything else? Henzi: No. Holmes (John): Thank you. Henzi: Anybody else want to speak for or against the project? Palmer (Heidi): Do you have to be an adult my daughter would like to speak if that’s all right? Henzi: Mike, is that okay? Lynch: My name Is James Thomas Lynch, Jr. Staff Sergeant, National Guard, Utah Canine Corps, familiar with all dogs. The situation has got out of hand. That dog is a pure bred Shepherd. It is territorial. It does not jump fences. It protects its territory. It knows its territory to be within the confines of that fence. It will not jump it. Somebody comes into that territory aggressively possibly but, it’s a family dog. It has not been trained as an attack dog or a guard dog. It is a family pet. The other objection I have to this is that I like an open neighborhood. I was opposed to the fence on the north side, but I wasn’t asked because apparently I wasn’t within 300 ft. I think it detracts from the neighborhood. I think it detracts from the neighborliness of the neighbors and I think it discourages City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 47 of 55 November 26, 2013 - neighborliness. I live two houses down from John. I know John. I have seen Abby. I would like to describe the behavior of some dogs around my daughter’s home. One lives in Hamburg, one lives right here in Livonia on Denne. Her neighbor has a barrio fence. The fence is 8-ft. tall and goes about half way down her property line. That dog is huge. Everyday when I come out, it comes out and attacks me through that fence. It attacks the fence. I go back around to where the cyclone fence is about 4-ft. The dog does not come over the fence. I reach over. I put my hand down and it sniffs and then walks away. And the more I come towards it but don’t come across the fence the more it backs away. These dogs are not meant to be attack dogs. They are family dogs. That is the primary issue here and I believe the Palmers have an unnecessary fear of the dog. Palmer (Heidi): Put your seven year old – Lynch: I will. I will introduce you to Abby. Henzi: Mr. Lynch. Palmer (Heidi):: You’re an idiot. Henzi: Mr. Lynch. Lynch: Yes. Henzi: Direct your comments to the Board only. Lynch: Okay. If you have any questions, I will be happy to answer them. I would oppose the fence as a barrier fence. I would oppose vinyl or wood or anything that blocks the area. I would amenable to anything else if they can come to some kind of agreement, but I personally don’t think it’s necessary. The animal itself is a safe animal in my opinion. Henzi: What’s your address again? Lynch: 14212 Garden Street. I live two houses down from Mr. Holmes. Henzi: Got it. Lynch: Additional comments. Next to me are two aggressive dogs. There is a 4-ft. cyclone fence separating myself and my neighbor Keith. I’ve been in the neighborhood for 35 years. The dogs are aggressive, they bark, they charge the fence. That’s the basic nature of the dog, but it’s not going to do anything else once you’ve established yourself as a friend or as a neighbor. They will become friendly. I know John has been working to keep Abby educated and do more work with the dog. He’ll be doing that later on I’m sure. I don’t’ know. But I feel City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 48 of 55 November 26, 2013 - that the barrier fence is unnecessary. I think there’s other solutions than a barrier fence. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else want to speak for or against this project? Kathryn Palmer: I live on 14209 Alexander Street. I just want to say that when the guys came out to prove that the line of the fence was ours we had the video camera out but it wasn’t that good because I messed it up. So, they came out and we were talking to the guy and he said that the dog could very easily jump the fence that it just didn’t know that it could. I remember him saying that and they were talking about how the 6-ft. fence would protect them for it. The City of Livonia people that have come out have said that like for the fence that it can jump the fence and the guys have seen the behavior of the dog and that it’s aggressive. Henzi: Thank you. Anything else? Palmer (Kathryn): No. Thank you. Petitioner: Tell them what you think of the dog. I don’t think they know. Tell them. Palmer (Heidi): Tell them from a kid’s point of view. Petitioner: Tell them what the dog is like to you. Palmer (Kathryn): Well, when we’re coming like from school to go in the house, it charges the fence and it tries to bite through it almost. We can’t even see it because the detached garage and stuff we’re just trying to like walk in and then we couldn’t put the trampoline up. We couldn’t do a leaf pile. We couldn’t do anything like that and then it’s like just really aggressive. It gets up on the fence and stuff. Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: How often does the dog bark? Palmer (Kathryn): Probably twice or three times every hour like more, like a lot more. Like it’s like longer periods but it comes out and then like three or four times more. Duggan: Thank you. Henzi: Good evening. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 49 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Goodall (Leroy): Good evening, my name is Leroy Goodall. I live at 11201 Haller Avenue. I am not a neighbor. I am a friend of John’s and I am very, very familiar with the dog that he has. The dog that I’ve heard these people describe is not the dog that I know or I’ve been around. It’s a bouncy little dog. I mean he is liable more to lick you to death than he’d ever bite you. It would never happen. It’s just a dog that’s just a very, very sweet little dog. He wants to be around people and he’s just not the dog they’re describing that I saw. I can’t speak for them. I can only speak for what I saw and the way I have seen the dog. I don’t have an axe to grind except I wanted to defend the dog from what I was hearing because the dog can’t defend itself. That’s all I’ve got. Henzi: Thank you. Goodall (Leroy): That’s it? Henzi: Thank you. Goodall (Leroy): Okay, thank you. Henzi: Anybody else want to speak for or against? Okay, then Mr. Palmer you have the opportunity to make a closing statement. Oh, I’m sorry, before you do let’s read the letters. You can come up towards the podium. Caramagno: We have an approval at [14230 Alexander Drive] from Terri Esposita. We have Gregory Malnar at [29101 Perth] approval (letter was read). Alex Fridman [14221 Sunbury] (letter was read). Luzviminda Cuares [14253 Garden] approval (letter was read). Henzi: All right, Mr. Palmer, go ahead. Petitioner: I would just appreciate it if you would approve it to help me protect my family so we can enjoy our property that we paid for and have the right to enjoy. We should not be fearful of a dog jumping the fence or barking at us or chasing us when we’re out in the yard. We should just be able to enjoy our yard and basically the whole spring and summer we have not. We have been waiting for the fence to go up so we can feel safe. Thank you. Henzi: When was the last time you saw the dog? Petitioner: Um, you know, I see it everyday. It barks at me everyday. Henzi: I mean here’s the deal. It’s November 26th you’re not going outside for the next four months. They say you’re describing a different dog. This dog is trained it’s better, et cetera. I’m wondering when you get back out there do you expect to have the same experiences? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 50 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Petitioner: Yes. As of early November, the dog charged the fence and wouldn’t shut up. I just went out there and it’s on the fence. It’s just ridiculous. McIntyre: I have a question, Mr. Chair. Henzi: There’s a question. McIntyre: Now, I’ve lost my train of thought. Your neighbors said that they offered to bring the dog over. Are you not amenable to that because you’re afraid of the dog or because at this point you’re just -- Petitioner: Well, at this -- McIntyre: -- let me finish, please. Petitioner: Oh, I’m sorry. McIntyre: That you’re so irritated you want nothing to do with them and nothing to do with the dog? Or are you honestly fearful that if they brought the dog over on a leash and please don’t read anything into my question I’m not advocating for barking dogs, but is there honest fear here or is it just to the point that the dog’s behavior is so annoying you want nothing do with the dog? Petitioner: It’s fear. We enjoyed the last dog and the last dog did bark, but the last dog was the same size but it was very sweet. The children would go up -- McIntyre: How big is this dog? Palmer (Heidi): How big is it, 80 lbs? Petitioner: It’s huge. Henzi: You have got to direct your comments to the Board. McIntyre: How big is the dog? Petitioner: Basically, the last dog was as big. It was very sweet. The kids would go up to the fence and stick their fingers through and, you know, and it was great. Palmer (Heidi): We weren’t fearful. Petitioner: And we weren’t fearful. This one we are. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 51 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Palmer (Heidi): Mr. Henzi, you said it best. We are willing to spend in excess of $2,000.00 on a house that’s worth about 40% less than when we bought it to protect not only our children, but our investment. That’s a huge amount of money to put into a house that’s worth a fraction of what it was when we bought it. I wouldn’t arbitrarily do this. I understand the gardening thing. That’s one thing he and I share. I love to garden. I can’t garden in my yard. I have a dog in my face the entire time I’m out there. It’s not even relaxing. So, I mean to your point, we’re willing to spend a lot of money. We’re willing to discuss putting up a vinyl fence if maintenance is his issue what’s a few hundred extra dollars if it relieves him of that responsibility? Furthermore, we’ve offered to put the nice side of the fence on his. We offered to remove the chain links at our expense incremental. We’ve offered to stain it, pick the color. Heck, I’d be willing to sign an agreement that every few years if you want us to hire somebody and do it contractually to maintain it, we’ll do that, too. That’s how serious we are and that’s how serious this problem is. Our kids shouldn’t have to be captive in the house. Henzi: I’ll ask this to you, too. I asked Mr. Holmes. Is there something else going on here? Palmer (Heidi): No. Petitioner: No, we’ve never had a problem. Palmer (Heidi): We have never had an issue ever. Petitioner: Until they go this dog. Palmer (Heidi): It’s the dog. Petitioner: We’ve never had a problem. Palmer (Heidi): And by the way, I gave my name to the lady at animal control. So, if there’s an anonymous complaint, that’s not me. He knew I was going to call. I absolutely gave my name. If she coded it as such, I’m not sure, but I did give her my name and address when I called. I don’t know if there’s another one or not, but thank you. Henzi: Thank you. Petitioner: Thank you. Palmer (Heidi): Thank you, appreciate it. Henzi: I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mrs. McIntyre. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 52 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Holmes (John): Excuse me, may I address one more thing? Henzi: No. It’s not because I don’t want to hear what you have to say it’s just the format of the meeting. Holmes (John): Sure. Henzi: Every case is the same. Go ahead. McIntyre: This is clearly about so much more than a fence and it sounds to me that the truth about this animal is somewhere in the middle. I don’t understand why the Palmer’s would say that the dog is aggressive if they were okay with the past dog if there wasn’t some aggressiveness in the dog. I also understand from some of the other things that have been said that it’s doesn’t appear that it’s an attack dog or dog that has been trained to attack or a dog that hates people. It seems that dog is probably open more than the family at 14228 is suggesting the dog is out. This is about more than a fence and more than a variance. Absent some evidence that the dog is truly ferocious, a video tape of what happens when the kids walk into the backyard. I’m not comfortable approving this. It’s difficult because I certainly don’t want to see the Palmers be made hostages in their house but, it’s just a mess of a situation and it’s unfortunate. I guess I’d also like to hear what my colleagues have to say. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Yeah, the truth lies somewhere in the middle here. There is no doubt in my mind. We hear about a ferocious dog barking at a fence and being aggressive and the same dog will lick you. I don’t want no dog licking me. I don’t want him barking at me either. I can see both sides of this issue. Is there a way to meet in the middle here at the fence? It doesn’t sound as though there is. I heard somebody suggest raising the height of the fence, the chain-link fence. I wonder if that can be done properly or not and then screened with an arborvitae or some sort of a growth on that fence? I think that would take care of the dog’s ability to jump that fence. It would take that piece of the fear out of it and it would allow you to screen it with a tree, shrub, series of trees, series of shrubs to give you what you need as far as a screen goes. It will give you the privacy of a dog not climbing a 6-ft. fence. I don’t know what that does for Holmes light on the other side. A tree blocks the light, too, but I think there is probably something here. Each side is going to have to lose something in my mind, but I don’t know what that answer is. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: I’m in favor of a tabling motion. My one issue would be the behavior of the dog. One says the dog doesn’t do anything. The other side says the dog is City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 53 of 55 November 26, 2013 - out of control. I’m wondering if you can get some sort of documentation from the animal control when they went over to visit something of that nature to talk about the dog. I don’t know if you can its general behavior because at this point it’s kind of a he said, she said spat between the neighbors without much documentation and I’m just wondering if we can get something like that to help clear any doubt in our minds. I know you guys have already lost four months in the process but I mean it is December and you’re not going to be gardening or anything in the next few weeks. So, if we can get some sort of documentation to figure out what when on that would be at least appreciated on my end. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue. I guess I’m kind of with everybody else that there has to be something on both sides that’s going on here that we’re not necessarily seeing. I will say though it wasn’t the Palmer’s that chose to have this dog. I don’t think they should be held hostage in their house. I would like to see it worked out. I’m just not really sure how that’s going to happen considering either way we decide on this someone is going to be really upset about that. So, that is a lose/lose for all of us. I love dogs. I love gardening. I get it all. I have to think about how I want to vote on this one because again, I will agree with my colleagues that there is more here than what meets the eye and I agree that I think the behavior of the dog has got to hit somewhere in the middle because it can’t be that diametrically different from each side of the fence. Henzi: Yeah, I am in favor of a tabling resolution, too. I’d like to give the parties a chance to resolve this. It puts us in a difficult spot. Perhaps the resolution is replace it with a 6 or 7-ft. chain-link and then the Palmer’s plant arborvitaes – I don’t know. I’m persuaded by the Palmer’s. They seem to have a genuine fear of this dog. I think the fact that they were fine with the last dog bodes well for them. They have gone to a lot of effort and their 12-year old daughter came up here and looks petrified when she talks about the dog. The Holmes seem like nice people. They seem like they’re dog lovers. They’ve trained their dog and their description is something completely different. So, I don’t know what to think? Are the Palmer’s too hypersensitive? Is the fact that they won’t introduce their kids to the dog is that adding to the problem? Is the fact that the Holmes appear, with all due respect, to have the attitude that hey this is my dog sort of live with it. You’ve got some budging to do, maybe that adds to it. I mean just because you’re a dog lover doesn’t mean that your neighbor is and just because the Palmer’s want a fence doesn’t mean that they have to have it. You can’t force it on somebody. Because I think that there is the potential for resolution and also quite honestly it’s, you know, Thanksgiving time there’s not going to be anything going on and for all we know by next summer this problem is over. That’s one of the biggest concerns that I have that this dog is docile by next summer. So, for all those reasons I would suggest a tabling resolution for six months. And if they come up with a resolution and agree to a 6-ft. chain-link City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 54 of 55 November 26, 2013 - fence, I don’t have any problem with it. And if they can’t come up with a solution, then we’ll see you in June. That’s my thought. The floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Duggan, supported by McCue, it was: APPEAL CASE NO. 2013-11-64: Robert and Heidi Palmer, 14219 Alexander, seeking to erect a six-foot wood privacy fence along the rear property line without obtaining the written approval of the adjoining property owner. The property is located on the west side of Alexander, (14219), between Meadowlark and Buckingham be tabled for six months to allow Petitioner to seek an alternate resolution or return to the ZBA. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Duggan, McCue, Caramagno, Henzi NAYS: McIntyre ABSENT: Pastor, Sills Henzi: All I can suggest is that hopefully you can come up with a mutually agreeable solution. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of AppealsPage 55 of 55 November 26, 2013 - Motion by McCue, seconded by Pastor, to approve the minutes of September 10, 2013 and October 22, 2013. Motion carried unanimously. There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at 9:15 p.m. _______________________________ SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary __________________________ MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman