HomeMy WebLinkAbout2012-04-03
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 26 April 3, 2012
MEMBERS PRESENT: Matthew Henzi, Chairman
Craig Pastor, Vice Chairman
Sam Caramagno
Edward E. Duggan, Jr.
Elizabeth H. McCue
Robert E. Sills
MEMBERS ABSENT: Toni Audia Aloe
OTHERS PRESENT: Cathryn K. White, Assistant City Attorney
Steven Banko, City Inspector
Helen Mininni, Court Reporter
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules
of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and
address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are
made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that
appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The
decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following
the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four
decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or
to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7)
member Board. Six (6) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if
anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary
then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated
their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all
interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 9
persons present in the audience.
(7:00 #1/181)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-04-11: Gretchen Schick, 17148 Francavilla, Livonia,
Michigan 48152, seeking to convert a family day care to a group day care home
(for up to twelve minor children), which requires conditional use approval from
the Zoning Board of Appeals, pertaining to all conditions as required by Zoning
Ordinance No. 543, Section 4.11(b).
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
CITY OF LIVONIA
MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING HELD APRIL 3, 2012
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 26 April 3, 2012
The property is located on the north side of Francavilla (17148) between Vargo and
Bobrich.
Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case?
Banko: Not at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the Petitioner
please come to the table? Good evening.
Petitioner: Good evening.
Henzi: Can you tell us your name and address, please?
Petitioner: Gretchen Schick, 17148 Francavilla Drive.
Henzi: Why don’t you explain for us why you want to have the group day care home.
Petitioner: We currently have six kids at our day care and as you know, we’re allowed
to have six. And we would like the opportunity to have a couple more and we also have
some family members, some of our families that have older siblings that would like to
come on snow days and days off from school and so we would like to be able to help
them out with that.
Henzi: Okay. Can you tell about things like your operation, like how it works, how many
kids go on certain days, what the plan is, that sort of thing?
Petitioner: We have three full-time kids and the others are part time so they fit into the
schedule. Some days we only have three kids, some days we have six kids. I have my
husband working with me so we have a low ratio it’s one to three because there’s two of
us and sometimes it’s less. We do teaching everyday. I’m a certified teacher so we do
reading everyday. I teach them lessons on reading, math – a whole bunch of stuff and
so they do a lot of learning. We do outdoor playtime. We have a playroom in our room
that we converted our family room into completely a playroom. So that’s dedicated only
to the kids and we have a sleeping room also downstairs where the kids can sleep.
Henzi: I apologize if this was in your packet, but do you watch any of your own kids?
Petitioner: No, they are school aged.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: Yeah.
Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioner?
Sills: Yes.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 26 April 3, 2012
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: How long have you resided in this home?
Petitioner: Since 2006.
Sills: And how long have you had your family day care?
Petitioner: Since November.
Sills: Since November?
Petitioner: Yeah.
Sills: And the upstairs bedroom that you have is for you and your husband and not for
the kids?
Petitioner: For the day care it is for one child. We watch our nephew. Our nephew is
one of the six and he has a sleeping room upstairs.
Sills: The reason I ask that question is because there are steps involved.
Petitioner: Yes, which is blocked off. We have baby gates blocking off the stairs.
Sills: It is my understanding that some of the neighbors have been complaining about
the outside of your home, your lawn and things like that not being up to par according to
the neighborhood. Do you have any response for that?
Petitioner: I would like to hear what they have to say.
Sills: Well, you will hear one in one of the letters today.
Petitioner: Sure.
Sills: But other than that one letter I have, I have heard from other people that wish that
your lawn would be taken care of a little bit better.
Petitioner: We had for a short time we had a slide in the front yard and we moved that
to the backyard. I know that they were concerned about that, but it’s been taken care
of.
Sills: And how many children do you intend to have for a group home?
Petitioner: Our goal is eight and then to keep the rest of the slots open for if the other
families – that our current families have needs, snow days and teacher work days and
things like that.
Sills: And it’s just you and your husband supervising; is that correct?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 26 April 3, 2012
Petitioner: Correct.
Sills: You don’t intend hiring any outside help?
Petitioner: Not at this time. It is always a possibility that we could hire more help. There
are certain requirements that an assistant has to go through, but as of right now, all of
the State requirements are covered with us two being there.
Sills: Thank you.
McCue: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: What are the age ranges of these kids, again? I’m sorry.
Petitioner: Twelve weeks to three-years old.
McCue: And so, what are the State requirements as far as children to adult ratio with
that age group?
Petitioner: With babies up to 18 months, it’s one to two. I can have two babies.
McCue: Okay.
Petitioner: With an assistant, I can have two more babies.
McCue: Okay.
Petitioner: So if you only have one person, you can have two up to 18 months. After
that, you can have -- up to 30 months -- you can have four under 30 months. So if you
have three that are 29 months, you can only have one baby. So, up to 30 months you
can have four and you can have up to six above 30 months.
McCue: So, correct me if I’m wrong, but what we’re trying to do is the group day care
which could theoretically go up to 12. You’re saying you’re not planning on going to 12?
Petitioner: We are not planning on going up to 12; correct.
McCue: Eight is that what you said?
Petitioner: That’s what our plan is to do eight.
McCue: Okay. And legally the two of you would be able to do that?
Petitioner: Yes.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 26 April 3, 2012
McCue: With what you figured with age ranges?
Petitioner: Yes.
Duggan: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: What about with – you said snow days and you want to leave a couple spots
open. So if you have up to eight kids and then there’s like a snow day, would that mean
a couple more kids? Would that be in compliance still with the State law?
Petitioner: Yes.
Duggan: Okay. All right, thank you.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: How do you handle your pool? You have a pool in the backyard.
Petitioner: Yes. It is totally fenced in. We have locks that require a key on both sides of
our deck. The kids are allowed to be on one portion of our deck. There is a portion that
has access to the pool, it’s locked on this side, it’s locked on that side; the only way they
can get in is if they have a key. Also, on our house on the back doors, both of our back
doors have alarms on them so as soon as somebody opens that first door, the alarm
goes off then there’s a second door to open so they have to be able to open two doors
and get through the alarm before they are allowed access to the backyard.
Pastor: Okay. I went by there earlier this week or last week and how old are your
children?
Petitioner: My children are 11, eight and --
Pastor: Okay, it probably wasn’t your child that I saw riding a - I’m going to call it a big
wheel or something along those lines out in the front.
Petitioner: Yes.
Pastor: I didn’t notice any parents out there or any supervision.
Petitioner: Could it have been my own child?
Pastor: I didn’t think it was 11, but maybe – looked a little younger than that to me.
Petitioner: If you were out there today, I know my 11 year old was on --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 26 April 3, 2012
Pastor: It wasn’t today.
Petitioner: Last week. Yeah. When my children are outside, my 11 year old is always
with them and then we have a front window and if – I can open the curtains and we can
see from the front window where the kids are. So, those are our own children. They
are old enough to know the rules. We’ve talked about what the rules are and how far
they are allowed to go before we can’t see them or they know all the rules regarding
being outside in the front yard or the back yard.
Pastor: Okay. Thank you.
Petitioner: With the day care kids there is always an adult out there.
Pastor: Okay.
Henzi: I have a follow-up question to something that Mr. Duggan asked and that is, let’s
say this summer when your kids are out of school, does that mean that you, if approved,
could have 12 kids plus your three or do your three have to get counted within that 12?
Petitioner: They do not have to be counted with the 12, but like I said, we are planning
on having eight is what our goal is and then the siblings that we have are – we have
three siblings. One of them – the three-year old comes two days or three days a week.
He doesn’t come full time. His sibling is school age obviously so he would only be there
some of the days.
Henzi: What is the maximum number of kids then that you would have, let’s say in the
summer when your kids are off?
Petitioner: Including my --
Henzi: On your busiest day.
Petitioner: Including my kids or --
Henzi: Including.
Petitioner: Okay, maybe 14.
Henzi: Fourteen would be the biggest. All right, and then how many sets of siblings do
you have? And what I’m getting at is how many cars will be picking up and dropping off
throughout a day?
Petitioner: We have – siblings, we have three siblings so at most there would be three
that come along. We do have a circle driveway. We have a long circle driveway so we
do have a lot of room for several cars to be in our driveway so there never should be a
problem with traffic on the road. It all would be in our driveway. So, we have six
families right now, five families, but some of them share a part-time schedule so some
of them won’t be there on the same day so, maybe four cars in a day.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 26 April 3, 2012
Henzi: Do any of the parents live in your subdivision?
Petitioner: No.
Henzi: So, everybody drives?
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: There’s a suggestion by a couple of your neighbors to return the yield sign that
is at Vargo and Francavilla to a stop sign. What’s your opinion on that?
Petitioner: I’d be for that. Whatever is decided is fine, but I would be for that to make it
safer.
Henzi: Are you saying that because you go along and it sounds okay? I’m trying to find
out if you just want to go along with that because you’re a reasonable person, or do you
think that there’s a problem and it should be a stop sign?
Petitioner: I don’t have a huge opinion on that, but if you can visualize what the road
looks like that’s the main road that comes in off of Six Mile so there’s lots of cars that
come through there and obviously they have a choice between turning left and right, so
it might be nice to have a stop sign there so those cars can get through.
Henzi: I mean, everybody who’s picking up and dropping off at your house probably
uses the Vargo entrance off of Six, right?
Petitioner: Francavilla entrance off of Six, yes.
Henzi: Francavilla, I’m sorry.
Petitioner: So, they don’t have to come far with coming into the subdivision. We’re
only three houses in.
Henzi: Right. Any other questions for the Petitioner? Oh, one more just to confirm.
You have the licensure already?
Petitioner: Yes, we are licensed.
Henzi: For the group day care home? You just need our approval in order to do this?
Petitioner: Yes.
Duggan: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 26 April 3, 2012
Duggan: What about as far as like noise level and if you have six or eight kids in the
backyard in the summer, I mean, I know your house is literally, you have the fence but it
backs up to the house, you know, right behind you. Do people come up to you and
knock on your door because they’re too loud or do you have any complaints or
anything?
Petitioner: We haven’t had any complaints for noise, but we do talk to the children
about being too noisy. There have been – especially the three-year olds brother gets a
little bit noisy sometimes. We talked to him about let’s be quiet, let’s use our inside
voice, let’s use our quieter voice. We have talked to him about that so it’s something
that we can address and any time they’re noisy, the kids know that they can’t be too
loud.
Duggan: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Mr. Banko, are there any complaints about this family day care?
Banko: We have received no complaints regarding this address.
Henzi: Thanks. Any other questions? All right. Is there any one in the audience who
wants to speak for or against this petition? If so, come on up to the table.
Petitioner: Should I move?
Henzi: Sure, have a seat Mrs. Schick and I will call you back up.
DuPuie: My name is John DuPuie. I am at 33485 Bobrich. I am directly behind the
Schick’s house. So when Mr. Duggan mentioned the noise level behind, I’m directly
behind them. There have been several discussions with other neighbors and myself
and my wife and so forth. I’m just going to go over a couple bullet points that have kind
of been consistent through all of our discussions. The property values, we feel, would
be negatively affected if we chose at some point in the near future to sell our homes.
Who wants to buy a house with a day care in the middle of their neighborhood? That’s
just a homeowner talking to other homeowners. The real estate market is tough enough
as it is out there if one of us chooses to sell in the near future, this would negatively
affect that. It’s currently a very calm, reserved neighborhood. Francavilla has
traditionally been – it’s right next door to Stevenson, even the Stevenson kids’ kind of
respect the fact that you try not to race through the streets and so forth. It’s been very
calm and good surroundings for a home life. I personally have witnessed in the past
summers, a couple of summers, their own children not being properly supervised
around the pool and that very, very, very strongly concerns the entire neighborhood.
We have not heard any alarms go off. We’ve seen their kids out in the yard
unsupervised. I’m not saying they’re bad parents, it’s just if they’re bringing more into
the mix, how does that come to the supervision at that point? And personally my last
point is just as recently as this afternoon, my wife observed a couple of the kids driving
their bikes three or four houses down and not being supervised by an adult. That
concerns us. We don’t need any further liabilities.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 26 April 3, 2012
Henzi: The Schick kids or the day care kids, or don’t you know?
DuPuie: I don’t know quite frankly and I don’t know if that should necessarily come into
play because either way their kids are only 11, eight and five and they should still be
supervised, right? That’s kind of our feeling. So, the supervisory factor did not go very
well. Barb, I’m not going to speak for you. If you’d like to add some comments about
your property, but those are pretty much the main points that I had on mine. One of our
other neighbors is out of town and his name is Gary Takessian and he asked that if his
objections were not noted in the proceedings that one of us read them for him.
Henzi: We will read his letter. It’s in our packet.
DuPuie: Okay. He just requested that we double check that. So, that’s all I have. If
there are any further questions, I have no problem with it, but we have some concerns.
Henzi: Thank you. Any questions? No? Okay, anybody else?
DuPuie: Thank you.
Loschiavo: My name is Jim Loschiavo, my wife is Barb Loschiavo. I think you probably
have her letter in the package.
Henzi: Yes, we do.
Loschiavo: Okay. So, I don’t want to add anything.
Henzi: Your address, please?
Loschiavo: My address is 33477 Bobrich. I back up one corner of my property touches
theirs. The one thing that bothers me that probably hasn’t been brought up, I spent 37
years at Ford Motor Company and I’m still a consultant on lawsuits. I don’t have a law
degree, but I would assume that my liability would go up if the kids escape or get out
and get hurt on my property. It’s a peaceful neighborhood so I’m concerned about that.
I have lived in Francavilla since 1984, Gary Takessian who wanted me to read his letter
you guys can read it on your own. I’ve lived there since ’84. He was an original owner.
I have an in-ground swimming pool. I have a 4-ft. fence, by code and it is always locked
and so I don’t want anybody to get hurt. I don’t want any kid to crawl over, climb over
my fence and take a dip in my pool when I’m at the grocery store and things of that
nature. So, I am very worried about a potential for liability. Is the day care going to be
totally liable for what happens in the neighborhood, or will I incur additional liability?
That’s my question and the rest of it, I guess, you’ve got that on top of what everybody
else has said.
Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? I see no one else coming forward. Are there
letters? There are.
Caramagno: There are. Vivian Cochran [17137 Francavilla] no objection (letter was
read). Sheila Mulka [17113 Francavilla] approval (letter was read). Michael Roman
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 26 April 3, 2012
[17257 Francavilla] objection (letter was read). Gary Takessian (& Anne) [33469
Bobrich] sends an objection (letter was read). Kenneth Ahn [17235 Francavilla]
objection (letter was read). Vincent Bastine [33461 Bobrich] objection (letter was read).
Barbara Loschiavo [33477 Bobrich] objection (letter was read).
Henzi: Mrs. Schick, you have the opportunity to make a closing statement.
Petitioner: Do I have to say my address again?
Henzi: No.
Petitioner: Gretchen Schick. Okay, one of the residents were concerned about multiple
day cares being in the area, you know, you open up one business, then you open up
two, a whole bunch of different things. There are State rules requiring distance apart
from day cares. They have to be within a certain number of feet to the next one so
there can’t be another in the neighborhood, so that is solved. Two of our sibling kids go
to summer camp, so during the summer those two children will not be there and the
other child that is a sibling only comes two or three days a week. So, if you count the
eight kids that we are asking for, the two siblings won’t be there and then we have that
one sibling of the three-year old. So, it’s less than anticipated. The two kids – the only
way that they would be there is if for some reason summer camp is not running that
day, or so it would be a very rare occasion, but they do have summer camp all summer.
The pool has been inspected and approved by the State of Michigan. She has come by
and approved our backyard, the inside of our house, outside of our house, our front yard
has been approved for playing and our backyard has been approved for playing. The
pool has been approved, it is high enough, it is supposed to be 4-ft. tall and it’s been
approved by the State of Michigan inspector. We do have the locks on it so people
can’t get to the pool and it is high enough, the walls are high enough all around it to
cover for the kids. We have as an optional thing that we went above and beyond, we
put a fence in the back so the kids can’t get to all sides of the pool. They are blocked
off so they can’t even access most of the pool because of that and there is still plenty of
space for them to play. The neighbors have said that they have not heard an alarm on
the house. Our alarm has gone off many times and you can shut it off. If you’re tall
enough, you can shut it off and hit the button, but you have to be tall enough to reach 6,
7-ft. high and then it comes back on 10 seconds later unless you shut the door. There
have been times that we have watched our kids in the pool from the kitchen sink which
is directly in front of the pool and I know for sure that this is what the neighbors were
talking about when they see the kids in the pool, our kids, our own kids, in the pool in
previous summers and then they don’t see an adult standing out there. We have been
standing at the window watching from the kitchen. I don’t think that they saw us there
and we have mentioned it to them that we were standing there watching. All three of
our kids are good swimmers so their safety was not in question. The kids outside of the
house today were our own children. I know my own kids were riding bikes and riding
the big wheel so the children that they saw today were our children. Two to three
houses down, I’m not sure, where that comes from because they go – our house is on a
curve so they go from one side to the other and I know that Alyssa has gone back to the
corner and come back which is one house past our property. Our daughter is 11 years
old she was out there, too, so there was additional supervision there. She’s very
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 26 April 3, 2012
responsible and like I said previously, the kids know all the rules and they know what is
expected of them. We do have two adults always supervising this day care, so our ratio
of adults to kids is one to three, so there is always an adult watching all the kids. As far
as there not being supervision for the day care kids during the day, the ratio is really
low. We do have the option of getting an assistant and if the neighbors are concerned
or if the certain kids’ that we have need extra supervision, that’s always a possibility to
get extra assistance. I think that’s all. I think that’s all I have to say.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: You didn’t address the so-called bad yard keeping.
Petitioner: Yes.
Pastor: Can you explain that to us? Do you know what they’re talking about?
Petitioner: Well, our grass is really bad grass, it’s got a lot of clover in it and moss, and
we’re not especially skilled in that. We don’t understand, you know, it’s not that we
know grass very well. So, that is our intention to re-sod the whole yard as soon as we
have enough money. That was our plan. We did not tell our neighbors that, but that is
our plan to just re-sod the whole yard. Anything that they have concerns about, I
encourage them to come to us and tell us. We are always more than willing to listen
and hear what they have to say.
Pastor: So, this is not a – my grass is 12 inches long and I don’t cut it very often.
Petitioner: No.
Pastor: It’s more of a look of the lawn.
Petitioner: Right.
Pastor: In your opinion.
Petitioner: I know that one of our neighbors from behind us has said that the backyard
got long a couple of summers ago and we’ve had some lay offs and things here and
there that, that things have been stressful and tight and so getting to the backyard and
trying to do that at that particular time in our life was difficult and that’s what they were
talking about, about the backyard that the grass got long a couple of summers ago. But
we did, as soon as they told us that they didn’t like it, we mowed it that day.
Pastor: Okay. You said lay offs. Do you or your husband have another job?
Petitioner: No, this is our sole job. We started this in November.
Pastor: Okay. You were laid off. You both were laid off. You said lay off’s?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 26 April 3, 2012
Petitioner: Yes.
Pastor: Is there a possibility of your jobs coming back?
Petitioner: No.
Pastor: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Anything else? Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the
Board’s comments with Mrs. McCue.
McCue: I have a lot of concerns with this to be honest with you. First of all, I think quite
honestly I can’t even imagine any time I’ve left my child in day care and trying to figure
out that scheduling is a nightmare. Anyways, finding a place that – I think with as many
kids that are coming and going and you know better on that piece than I do from a legal
perspective, but I still think we have – there’s two people trying to manage between
what – six and fourteen and we’ve got a lot of ifs, ands, or buts in there, which is a little
bit of a concern. Probably my biggest concern, however, are the neighbor concerns
and quite honestly, I don’t know if I would be that thrilled about having 14 kids next door
to me in my neighborhood. And we all get that there’s a necessity for that, but I can
understand where the community is coming from and I’m not completely convinced that
I’m in support of changing that for everybody else around for this one situation. And
again, as the neighbors are concerned, if we already have an upkeep – and I think
somebody had mentioned this earlier – if we’re already having a situation of keeping
property kept up and doing that, I’m not convinced that increasing or adding more
children to that situation is going to make that any better. So I think in light of all that, I
don’t think that I’m going to be able to be in support of this.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: A few things. As far as traffic, I think you do have the circular driveway so I
think that works out well for you. That was one of my issues. You do have a good
house – I like the backyard setup you have. I was concerned about the pool and I saw
that you have it blocked off with a fence and then you have locks on it. I have a couple
of issues as far as supervision, kids getting down the street. You have Stevenson kids
driving in and around the neighborhood, so that worries me. As far as the upkeep and
maintenance issues, I was over there the other day and I thought it looked fine. I didn’t
notice anything that was bad about it at all, but it’s still an issue if your neighbors are
having an issue with it within the neighborhood, you know, that worries me. I keep
going over this. If you go up to eight kids, so it’s only a couple more kids than you were
planning on before, but I’m sitting here listening to you and I thought you had a good
presentation. My issue is would I want my neighbor to be running a day care next to
me? And I don’t know that I would be particularly – if I would particularly want that at all,
but I do think you are running a – you have a good house for it, your layout looks like it’s
spacious and can accommodate a few more kids, but as far as the issues with your
neighbors, I don’t know if I can support this at this time. I am going to listen to the other
members of the Board to see what they have to say as well.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 26 April 3, 2012
Henzi: Mr. Pastor:
Pastor: Well, as these cases go, we’ve had quite a few of them that we have denied,
but this is probably one of the ones that I would lean in favor of only because of the way
the driveway is set up. You have that other little parking spot on the end of your
driveway that you can park another little car or two – it looks like two to me you could
park there. My concern is – you said there might be 12 or 14 kids there - that’s a lot.
Although back when I was growing, it wasn’t unusual to have 20 kids at a house. I think
I could probably support this. I do have a concern about the pool, but it sounds like you
have that handled so I think I could support this.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: You certainly have a lot of neighbor complaints there about a variety of
things. Some I think are worth the writing that’s on the paper, other things about how
you keep your grass. You can go anywhere in Livonia and you can find poor grass
keeping. So, I don’t think that weighed a lot with me. The thing that does weigh a lot
with me is especially from the old timers from the neighborhood. When they bought in
there, they bought a nice neighborhood with the intention for it to stay a nice
neighborhood. If today they had to make that same decision and buy next to a group
day care with 12 children, they wouldn’t make that same decision. They wouldn’t buy
there. So you’re new to the neighborhood, you’ve got some ideas and things you want
to do, but I personally think that 12 children in a home there, 14 whatever the number
may be, eight, I think it’s too much for that neighborhood. One of the things we have to
look at here are these qualifications and one of them that sticks with me is preserving
the residential character of the dwelling. Although it doesn’t say tot land or something
like that on it, when you’ve got 12 or 14 kids running around and the majority of them
not yours, that’s not preserving the residential character of that property and dwelling to
me. So, I will be against this.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: I concur with Mr. Caramagno. Looking at the letters from the neighbors out of
seven letters five of them are objectionable. Sitting on this Board, I have been in
Livonia since 1964. When I bought into Livonia, it was an exclusive neighborhood in
Burton Hollow and it has stayed pretty nice for all of these years. We haven’t had
problems with family day cares in my neighborhood or anything of that nature. Now if I
were to sell my house, I couldn’t make any real money on it, but I couldn’t lose on it
because I only paid $23,000.00 for my house in 1964.
McCue: You’d break even right now.
Sills: And the Indians that I bought it from, they’re gone. So looking at it from that
standpoint, I don’t think I can approve this petition although I do feel sorry for you
because you have done everything in your power to stay there and you have complied
to all of the rules and I have no objection to that, but I do have to consider the
neighborhood and the neighbors in the event that any of them did want to sell, it would
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 26 April 3, 2012
be detraction from anybody buying a home in that neighborhood. So, I am not going to
support this petition.
Henzi: This is a very difficult case for me. This is a decisive issue and that’s why our
City Council enacted the ordinances that it did enabling us with the power to make
decisions on cases like this. You made a very nice presentation. I’m sure that you run
a nice day care. The problem is, is that you’re in an established neighborhood and in
my experience on the Board usually the greatest objections to petitions like yours are
from neighbors who say, we’ve been here 30 years, this has been a quiet, idyllic place
and now they want to change it, I don’t want to change it. If you were in – pick any
newer development, you might not have as much concentrated objection. But I think
the objections are valid, I mean, I understand where they are coming from. So
unfortunately, I won’t be able to support it, but I will say that you do meet all the
requirements, it’s just, I think it’s in the wrong spot. Unfortunately, for you with this
subdivision – and when I say the wrong spot what I mean is, if it were somewhere else it
might not change the character of the neighborhood. Here, unfortunately, I think that it
would and so for those reasons I will have to say no and it sounds like there is not
consensus. You would need five votes so I don’t think that having you come back so
that Mrs. Aloe can vote is going to make a difference unfortunately for you. So, the floor
is open for a motion.
Petitioner: Am I allowed to say anything?
Henzi: Technically no, but go ahead.
Petitioner: As far as the 14 kids go, those would be on individual days not as a rule.
Like I said, Kylie and Brandon are not going to be there all summer. So, that takes two
away from that and my kids do like to go on vacations to New York and go to friends’
house and things like that, so it could be --
Henzi: Well, I for one, I did consider that and I always consider that. Frankly, to be
honest with you, I’m in favor of these. I like them. I’m one of those people that think
that they’re a good thing for the City, but I’m a guy with young kids so maybe that’s why
I feel that way. But I always ask petitioners about when are the kids going to be there
because you might have four one day, eight the next and that sort of thing. I’m satisfied
that you answered those types of questions, but unfortunately for me, the high is 14,
that’s as high as any petitioner like you has ever suggested. What I mean is that you’re
coming forward saying I want up to 12 plus I’ve got 3 of my own. That – you know, 15 is
a big difference from six and we often times get people who come in and will say, hey
look, what’s the difference between – they want the family day care home – and they
say, you know, 30 years ago families with six kids was not uncommon, what’s the
difference? And I think they are right, but six and 15, I mean, that’s the difference
between a big family and a classroom in my opinion. So, we did consider that. We all
go by the property and we take it very seriously.
Petitioner: On a typical day, like we’re asking for the eight, the eight plus the three,
which would just be 11, but I understand that. And you’re saying that being so close to
the entrance of the subdivision because we’re so visible that would be --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 26 April 3, 2012
Henzi: That wasn’t a concern for me, but you might have heard other people say it.
Petitioner: Okay. Because you said we were in a bad spot.
Henzi: Let me clarify. By a bad spot, I don’t mean that there’s anything wrong with your
location. I think that that’s a plus for you that it’s off of the Vargo entrance – or
Francavilla entrance from Six Mile. That’s very good for you. That means that you
don’t have six hurried parents trying to get there by six or else they’re going to have to
pay more money racing past all your neighbors’ homes to pick up the kid. That’s a plus.
What I meant was, it’s an established neighborhood where everyone around you has
been there for probably 25 or 30 years and are used to a way of life and this is going to
change it. If you had neighbors who have been there 3 years, one maybe six, brand-
new neighbors, your neighbors might have different opinions. That’s what I meant when
I said bad spot.
Petitioner: Right, okay. Thank you for clarifying
Henzi: So, the floor is open for a motion.
McCue: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
Upon Motion by McCue, supported by Caramagno, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-04-11: Gretchen Schick, 17148 Francavilla,
Livonia, Michigan 48152, seeking to convert a family day care to a group day
care home (for up to twelve minor children), which requires conditional use
approval from the Zoning Board of Appeals, pertaining to all conditions as
required by Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 4.11(b).
The property is located on the north side of Francavilla (17148) between Vargo and
Bobrich, be denied on the grounds that the following standards set forth in Zoning
Ordinance 4.02(i) have not been met because the residential character of the dwelling
and surrounding properties would not be preserved.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: McCue, Caramagno, Duggan, Sills, Henzi
NAYS: Pastor
ABSENT: Aloe
Henzi: The request was denied but, of course, your family day care status is not
changed by this. Good luck to you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 26 April 3, 2012
Petitioner: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 26 April 3, 2012
(7:50 #1440)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-04-12: James McEwen, 34101 Plymouth, Livonia, MI
48150, seeking to maintain an awning with enclosure on the front of a
nonconforming building, resulting in deficient front yard setback. Nonconformity
is based on the existing front yard setback of 21 ft. where 60 ft. is required.
Front Yard Setback
Required: 60.0 ft.
Proposed: 16.5 ft.
Deficient: 43.5 ft.
The property is located on the south side of Plymouth (34101) between Stark and
Farmington.
Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case?
Banko: Not at this time, Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come
forward? Good evening.
Petitioner: Good evening.
Henzi: Can you tell us your name and address?
Petitioner: My name is Barbara McEwen, James is my husband. He’s out of town so I
am representing him in this. Our business address is 34101 Plymouth Road. Do you
want my home address?
Henzi: No, that’s good.
Petitioner: Okay.
Henzi: Is there anything you want to add to what you put in the application?
Petitioner: Not a lot. Just the fact that this is something we felt that we had to put up to
accommodate our customers. It has entirely to do with the nonsmoking inside the
building and every other bar that’s around us probably within four or five miles that I
have noted has some type of an awning or an overhang roof or some place where they
can get away out of the elements to smoke. Be it snow or rain or wind and our building
has nothing, absolutely no overhang any where around it until we put up the awning.
And to help to keep them comfortable in the winter, without having to put heat out there,
we thought the best thing to do would be to partially enclose it with curtains, roll down
curtains, that would be able to roll up in the summer. So, they would be gone in the
summer. They would only be there in the coldest months of the winter. And when we
purchased this from Mary Grove Awning, we were led to believe it wouldn’t be a
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 26 April 3, 2012
problem. So, we went ahead and we did all that and put it up and then someone came
and said there was a complaint that we weren’t allowed to have the curtains. So,
consequently, because we had to roll them up, we have issues again with the smokers
who don’t feel there’s any place for them to go. So, they tend to want to go somewhere
where there’s a little bit of protection if they’re going to sit and have a couple beers and
they want to have a cigarette, they want to go where they’re not going to get rained on
or that kind of a thing. So, this is what it was for and it’s not completely enclosed. It’s
only on two sides. It’s totally open on the west side of the building to where you can
come in probably 6 or 7 ft. It’s not a total enclosure and there isn’t even any sitting out
there. It’s just meant for them to go out, have a cigarette, come back in and hopefully
not have to put on their mittens and gloves, you know, boots, and coat, and all that or
have to hold an umbrella while they’re trying to smoke a cigarette. That’s really what it
was all for and obviously the awning is still going to stay. It’s been approved and we
love it, but we would like to be able to roll down the enclosure in the nasty months of the
winter so there’s a little bit of comfort for the customers.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Go ahead, Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: This is actually to Steve. Steve, this 16-ft, I’m looking at this lot line and why is
this lot so much shorter than the lot next to it? Is that where we get some of this
deficiency from? And it’s not on this one, but it’s on another one that you have in our
packet, too. I notice all these lots are different widths on Plymouth Road.
Banko: There’s different brick paths of the public right-of-way along Plymouth Road, but
I will say that anything that is treated like a public right-of-way is public right-of-way, so it
comes common out there, so where the sidewalk is, they have a nonconforming –
obviously, a nonconforming front yard setback because that was there long before our
ordinance was.
Pastor: So the way this is drawn on here that shouldn’t affect them on the frontage
because – I don’t have a scale or anything, but I’d have to say that’s got to be at least
15 or 20-ft. compared to the retail plaza or the building next to them. Is that where the
numbers are taken from?
Banko: I don’t believe so, sir. It would be taken from - the measurement comes from
the sidewalk where the public right-of-way ends to the back side of the sidewalk.
Pastor: Okay.
Banko: Which gives you that 16 ½-ft. when the enclosure is down. Without the
enclosure, it’s 21-ft. setback.
Pastor: So, there’s only 5-ft. difference.
Banko: There’s a 5 ½-ft. difference I think that’s what it is.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 26 April 3, 2012
Pastor: Something like that. And isn’t there something in our rules about temporary
enclosures, too, because that would be considered a temporary enclosure.
Banko: Because it is a temporary enclosure, but once that enclosure comes down,
that’s taking part of that front yard setback away. That’s what makes it more deficient.
Pastor: Doesn’t the awning do the same?
Banko: No, the awning doesn’t come down to the ground.
Pastor: Okay, thank you. That will be it for right now.
McCue: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: Educate me a little bit on this no smoking.
Petitioner: They’re not allowed to smoke inside the building.
McCue: Is there or is there not, and I’ve heard both sides, a requirement – legally can
they stand right outside the building and smoke? Or do they have to be so far away
from the building?
Petitioner: I actually don’t know about that. I don’t know if it’s ever been brought up by
anybody. I’ve never seen any place that I’ve ever driven by where they’re any farther
than a step or two outside the doors. So, I really don’t know.
McCue: I get you. I agree that that happens. I have had a couple conversations with
people on the corridor as well that have talked about not only their concerns about the
enclosure in general but what the real law is. And my understanding is, and I don’ t
know if anybody knows that is they’ve got to be so many feet away from the building,
but again, that isn’t necessarily I know what we are discussing right at the moment, but I
think by validating what we are doing here and that takes it to the next step. I don’t
know if you know that at all.
Petitioner: I’m not sure.
Banko: I believe part of that has to do with public places, your hospitals and things of
that nature. You’re not allowed to smoke outside of the hospital. You have to leave that
property. I’ve also seen that involved with school properties where the bus drivers
would come and drop off kids and wouldn’t be allowed to smoke on the school property.
They’d have to walk across the street in order to have a cigarette.
Petitioner: I can only assume that you don’t have to be very far out the door because
the smoking ashtray down here at City Hall building is 5-ft. outside the door. So, I’m
assuming – I know you couldn’t sell cigarettes within 50-ft. of the door or something
because we used to have a cigarette machine there and we had to move it. So, it was a
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 26 April 3, 2012
difference between selling them there and whether you could smoke there. So, I’m just
assuming by whatever everybody else has that you’re allowed to do that. I really don’t
know. I don’t smoke so, I don’t know.
McCue: And I don’t know either.
Petitioner: I don’t know.
McCue: Thank you.
Sills: I drive by hospitals and I see nurses and doctors right outside the door smoking
and they tell you not to smoke.
Henzi: Steve, I had a question for you. My concern is that I just don’t want to have all
of a sudden there’s four tables and 12 chairs out there and I don’t know that that’s even
physically possible. My question to you is how can we police that if it happens? It’s not
that big of a deal if somebody is out there for 20 minutes, I don’t want to circumvent the
requirement to get City Council approval for a site-plan change.
Banko: Well, if you make that part of the condition, if you do approve the enclosure,
that is something which some of the conditions that are set forth are almost impossible
for us to enforce, but in a case such as this, it would be very easy to keep tabs whether
there’s a table being put out there or not. I know Mr. McEwen and he’s a pretty straight
up guy.
Petitioner: It’s also clear. We have clear vinyl. It’s only solid red from the first 3-ft. from
the ground up. The rest is clear vinyl so you can see right in actually to the building if
you wanted to. And we did it for that reason so you’d be able to see what was going on
in there and for the safety of our customers and the girls if they happen to go out there
somebody could be hiding in there and nobody would know. So, we put the clear in
there so somebody would be able to see. We don’t want them out there except to
smoke. They’re not allowed to take beverages outside to do that so consequentially we
don’t have chairs or tables out there. We would like to put maybe a bench or something
out there. We used to have one, but it just kind of broke down. The elements wore it
out and we threw it out and waited until after the awning was done to see about
approval and that. We would like to put a bench there so they can sit, but as far as a
table or anything like that, no.
Henzi: Well, that gives me some comfort then. You’re still policing - nobody can take a
drink out.
Petitioner: No.
Henzi: Okay. Because I just thought, Buddy’s, Kicker’s, any other place on Plymouth
Road that’s spent the money, came to City Hall and made an application would say,
hey, this isn’t fair. And I couldn’t fault them for that.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 26 April 3, 2012
Petitioner: They all have a very large area where you’re under cover where you’re away
from the elements. They have awnings or roof areas that are 10, or 12, or 14-ft. out
from their building. All we have is the awning that we just put up and it’s only 4½-ft. out
from the building.
Henzi: Yeah, okay.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: W as this something that you would have down all the time or would you put it
up occasionally?
Petitioner: It would be up all summer. It would only be down in the coldest months of
the winter; otherwise, it would be too hot out there.
Pastor: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Anything else?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Yes, did you consider putting the smoking area anywhere else on the
property, behind that building on the west side of the building?
Petitioner: We did, but if we put it behind the building – like I said – we have no
overhang anywhere so they would have to walk through the elements to get to the
smoking area because you don’t have access from the customer part of the building to
get to our back door. That hallway is blocked off. It’s a private entrance for employees
and myself and my husband.
Caramagno: Yes, I noticed there was a door back there, but there’s - no employees
come through there?
Petitioner: The employees can come through there –
Caramagno: I mean no patrons come through there?
Petitioner: Right.
Caramagno: They come through either the west side door --
Petitioner: The east side or the north. Oh, I’m sorry, west.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 26 April 3, 2012
Caramagno: West side. Okay. Did you consider putting something on that west side at
all to not have them smoking on Plymouth Road there?
Petitioner: We did, but that’s such a busy entrance 95% of customers come in through
there and we would have to put something out into the parking lot and we weren’t really
sure about putting a structure out there. So, we figured since we already had the partial
wall there and just did a small awning out front, then we would be able to accommodate
them that way. They would be able to reach it through the door without having to go out
through elements to get some place.
Caramagno: So, you considered, you did look at it, you considered the options and --
Petitioner: We did. We thought the easiest way to resolve would be to put it out front
like that.
Caramagno: Fair enough.
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants
to speak for or against the project, if so, come on up. Good evening.
Representative: Good evening. My name is Roger Ryskamp. I work at Mary Grove
Awnings, 12700 Merriman Road, Livonia and I just wanted to speak to the construction
of the curtains and the temporary nature. I don’t know has anybody seen these things?
Henzi: We have those in our packet.
Representative: Okay. They are individual and, in fact, you can see where the
windows and the lines drawn. They’re individual curtains that roll up and strap into the
underside of the awning. There is no framework involved. They’re not rigid panels,
they’re not bolted into the awning. They’re very easy to roll up if need be and they are
designed to be temporary. It’s not something that can easily go up and down so I just
wanted to speak to that point.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Did you guys pull a permit when you put this up?
Representative: Yes.
Pastor: And did you tell the Building Department that they had these curtain walls?
Representative: Yes. We were told that basically if these things were rolled up there
would be no problem at the inspection.
Pastor: If they were rolled up?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 26 April 3, 2012
Representative: Yes.
Pastor: Well, that’s kind of useless to put something – to have someone buy something
that can’t be rolled down. Thank you.
Henzi: Are there any other questions? Anybody else want to speak for or against the
project? I see no one. Are there any letters on this one?
Caramagno: No, no letters.
Henzi: Mrs. McEwen, anything you want to say?
Petitioner: The only thing I wanted to add to that was when we got approval from the
Building Department, that was one of the concerns that I asked was, is there going to be
a problem with anything? And they said, no, everything was approved because this
was a major expense in a very difficult economy and the bar business is not like it used
to be so we struggle for every dollar and losing two or three smokers to someplace
down the street was really just not an option. So upon their word, we went ahead and
signed on the dotted line and paid the money. They put that up and three days later
somebody came and said we can’t do that. So, we were under the impression when we
signed that everything was a go. We had no clue. Otherwise, we would have made
some type of different arrangement be it moving it somewhere else or trying some type
of a different structure, or something smaller, just something different if we would have
known that up front which obviously it’s our fault but we didn’t know. So, we were led to
believe through the Company that everything was approved.
Henzi: Thank you very much. Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and
begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: I will be in support. I think that the miscommunication between the Building
Department and your builder and you is, for someone to have a complaint against you
and bring it to us I think is not good. I think it’s bad, I don’t know how else to say it but,
everyone has some sort of awning, you know, Kicker’s, Buddy’s and I think there’s a bar
on Levan --
Petitioner: The Time Out.
Duggan: Time Out, thank you. Time Out has something covered, too.
Petitioner: Yes.
Duggan: I wish you would have handled it before, but I will be in support because I do
think with everyone else having one it is only fair that you get it as well. So, I will be in
support.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 26 April 3, 2012
Pastor: Well, due to the fact that they claim it’s only going to be rolled down part time I
think I can support this because it won’t be a permanent structure. It’s still a structure,
but the curtains aren’t down all the time so it won’t look like an addition to the building.
It’s an attractive awning. I drive by it quite often so I think I can support this.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: I agree with Craig. It’s nice looking. I recognize the fact that you said it’s
seasonal and when I think of seasonal, I’m thinking November through March basically
to keep the cold, rain, snow, off people. It’s not the only awning in the area there’s a
bunch of them that were mentioned already. There’s plenty of awnings so I will be in
support.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: I also will be in support. I think the awning is not only necessary, but it is quite
decorative and I would like to make one comment though. The Petitioner did say that
there used to be a bench there and she’s thinking of putting another one there. I don’t
think you should put a bench there because if you put something where people will sit
on it, they will sit on it and they’re not necessarily going to be customers.
Petitioner: That’s true. I didn’t think about that. You’re right about that.
Sills: So, if somebody can sit down and have a cigarette and shoot the breeze with his
buddy, they’ll sit there for maybe hours.
Petitioner: Right.
Sills: So, I wouldn’t put any benches in there. I think that should be part of the
resolution that there won’t be anything to sit on in that particular area.
Petitioner: Okay.
Sills: I do agree that it is a decorative-type awning and it will serve its purpose as you
intended it to. I will be in support.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: I agree. The awning is great. It really enhances the building and I am always
in favor of anything that we can do up and down Plymouth to enhance it, and it looks
really, really nice and the color is great. I also feel that I think you did your part in
getting the proper approvals in the proper process. It wasn’t like you went ahead and
just did it after the fact – so all in all, I think it’s temporary, it makes total sense for what
you’re trying to do, but the small amount of difference that it makes I will be in support.
Petitioner: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 26 April 3, 2012
Henzi: So will I. The State enacted a law that changes the way bars operate and in
compromise I think it is fair to allow this sort of thing to happen in Livonia. Also, it is
seasonal and it’s quite like what a lot of other bars in this City have or would like to
have. I like Mr. Sills idea and then we try to fashion to make it seasonal or only down
during inclement weather or during hours of operations --
Petitioner: We wouldn’t even put it down unless it was in the winter because in the
summer even with the rain, you don’t get rain on the north side. You don’t get an issue
with the rain you just get the snow and the wind in the winter. So, it won’t even be down
at all in the summer or spring.
Henzi: Okay, very good. The floor is open for a motion.
Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Sills, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-04-12: James McEwen, 34101 Plymouth,
Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to maintain an awning with enclosure on the front of a
nonconforming building, resulting in deficient front yard setback. Nonconformity
is based on the existing front yard setback of 21 ft. where 60 ft. is required.
Front Yard Setback
Required: 60.0 ft.
Proposed: 16.5 ft.
Deficient: 43.5 ft.
The property is located on the south side of Plymouth (34101) between Stark and
Farmington, be granted for the following reasons and findings of facts:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because many other buildings on Plymouth
Road in the restaurant/bar business have awnings to accommodate their
customers’ needs. The uniqueness requirement is also there because the laws
have been changed in regards to smoking in establishments and there has to be
an area for customers to find shelter while smoking outside the establishment.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because it would not allow the customers to have an area to smoke and they
would have to leave the facility.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and the spirit of
the Zoning Ordinance because many other buildings that cater to the same type
of customers have awnings and like shelters already.
4. The Board received no letters of approval and no letters of objection from
neighboring property owners.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of
the Master Plan because this property is classified for “General Commercial”
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 26 April 3, 2012
under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that
classification.
FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions:
1. That there are no tables, chairs, or benches under the awning for people to
congregate during non-business hours or just wander in to sit.
2. That the side walls are only down during winter months, e.g. November to March.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Caramagno, Sills, Duggan, McCue, Pastor, Henzi
NAYS: None
ABSENT: Aloe
Henzi: The variance is granted with those two conditions, the side walls down during
the winter months November to March and no seating.
Petitioner: That’s perfect. Thank you.
Henzi: Good luck.
Motion by Caramagno, seconded by Duggan, to approve the minutes of 2/7/12; Pastor
abstained. All were in favor.
There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at
8:15 p.m.
__________________________
SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary
__________________________
MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman