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City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 38 August 28, 2012
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
CITY OF LIVONIA
MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING HELD AUGUST 28, 2012
A Regular Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the
Auditorium of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, August 28, 2012.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Matthew Henzi, Chairman
Craig Pastor, Vice President
Sam Caramagno, Secretary
Edward E. Duggan, Jr.
Elizabeth H. McCue
Kathleen McIntyre
Robert E. Sills
MEMBERS ABSENT: None
OTHERS PRESENT: Mike Fisher, Assistant City Attorney
John Podina, City Inspector
Helen Mininni, Court Reporter
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules
of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and
address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are
made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that
appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The
decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following
the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four
decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or
to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7)
member Board. Seven (7) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if
anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary
then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated
their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all
interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were
4persons present in the audience.
(7:05 #1/139)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-06-28: Ramco/Lion Venture, 13100 Middlebelt, Livonia, MI
48150, on behalf of Lessee Five Below, 13212 Middlebelt, Livonia, MI 48150,
seeking to erect a wall sign, resulting in excess wall sign area.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 38 August 28, 2012
Wall Sign Area
Allowed: 50 sq. ft.
Proposed: 76 sq. ft.
Excess: 26 sq. ft.
The property is located on the east side of Middlebelt (13212) between Schoolcraft and
the CSX Railroad.
Henzi: Is there a motion to remove from the table?
Pastor: Mr. Chair, I make a motion to remove this from the table.
Caramagno: Support.
Henzi: All in favor say, aye.
Board: (In unison) Aye.
Henzi: Opposed? This is removed. Thank you. Mr. Podina, anything to add to this
case?
Podina: No, sir, not at this time.
Fisher: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Fisher.
Fisher: If I may, the landlord met with me since the last meeting and he gave two things
in response to questions that came before the Board last time. Number one, the
frontage is 50 ft, not 58 or any other number. Number two, the Ulta store which is set
go in next to them is going to have compliant signage on wall signage. There is a
tenant space, I guess it would be to the north of that, which remains open. And as of
when we met they did not know who that tenant was going to be, so they didn’t have a
feel for what the signage was going to be, but it would probably be something
comparable to what we’re talking about tonight.
Henzi: Thank you.
Fisher: You’re welcome.
Henzi: Any questions for Inspection or Law Department? Hearing none, will the
representative please come forward? Good evening.
Representative: Good evening. My name is Carrie Howell. I’m with Allied Signs on
behalf of Five Below. We’re here from the last meeting to which we were tabled. There
were some questions that needed to be addressed all of which I believe we have done
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 38 August 28, 2012
since then aside from the main thing of approving the variance. You need my address,
too, don’t you?
Henzi: Yes.
Representative: It’s 33650 Giftos Drive, Clinton Township, Michigan. And this time I
actually have some photos showing the entrance into the shopping center although I’m
sure that everybody on the Board is familiar with the shopping center and how the traffic
flows in. If you don’t mind, I would like to pass it around to show. The first photo that
you will see is making a left-hand turn into the shopping center and it shows the lack of
visibility of anything in the shopping center for that matter not just the Five Below store,
but how you can’t really tell what’s back there just due to the setback and then the
growth of like the foliage and things like that. The photo after that shows a little bit
deeper into the center shopping and if you look really, really closely, you’ll be able to
see the Five Below right around in the middle and all you’re going to see is a blue band.
So again, being the 1,400 ft. back out by the road you still can’t see the Five Below sign.
And then, the last photo that we have shows it again a little bit closer to where you
might actually be able to see it and all you’re able to see is just a little bit of the letters
and still the blue background is the only thing that’s really standing out for that store.
Henzi: When did the sign go up?
Representative: The sign went up the second week of July, I believe.
Henzi: And then the Ulta sign that’s up, is that’s what’s going to stay? The Ulta sign
won’t change?
Representative: Not to my knowledge, no.
Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner’s Representative?
McCue: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: I’m sorry, Mr. Fisher, did you say Ulta is compliant?
Fisher: It is the intention of everybody involved that the sign would be compliant, so I’m
told.
McCue: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 38 August 28, 2012
Caramagno: Mike, you said that all the signs will be compliant or is compliant?
There’s a sign there; isn’t there?
Fisher: Is there a banner there now? I don’t even know.
Representative: No.
Caramagno: There is a sign up there now.
Podina: Yes, there is.
Representative: It is installed and it is within code.
Fisher: Okay. Well, that’s what they’re referring to then.
Caramagno: Okay. And I missed the first meeting and I apologize for not knowing all
the information. How did this sign get put up prior to the approval of the Board? How
did that go down?
Representative: We just submitted for what would be allowed so instead, so in lieu of
them opening without a sign, we went ahead with what we could have and installed that
and then proceeded with the variance process as it has unfolded to where we are at
today.
Caramagno: So, the sign that’s there now is not the sign we’re looking at tonight?
Representative: No.
Caramagno: It’s going to be larger than that?
Representative: Yeah, they’re 3 ft. 3 inch letters is what they’re requesting and so that’s
an extra 26 sq. ft. in addition to what they already have.
Caramagno: Okay. I was under the impression that the sign was already up as
presented tonight. Okay. How about the sign out at Middlebelt Road the one that – the
representation out there that you’re in the plaza?
Representative: They do have a space on the multi-tenant sign; however, most of the
other tenants that are already in there like the main anchor stores that we had talked
about before they have an entire space whereas Five Below is sharing a panel with
somebody else. And so theirs is half the space with the words Five Below actually
spelled out, so it’s not like a number five and below which you could actually make
bigger. So in keeping with their logo and branding, it made that lettering has to be a lot
smaller and is not as visible as they would have liked it to have been. So, they’re
lacking in proper identification even on that sharing that space with somebody else.
Caramagno: So, in the pictures you showed, you think that the extra 20 some odd feet
is going to make a difference in helping be seen from Middlebelt?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 38 August 28, 2012
Representative: Not necessarily from Middlebelt, but give them better visibility
immediately upon entering into the shopping center. The about 1,400 and whatever
odd feet it is from actually from Middlebelt would make it very hard to see, but would like
to have the visibility once you’re in the shopping center so that people know that they’re
there because honestly when you’re driving you’re not really looking at monument signs
and things like that. So, something like that could be missed, whereas if you’re driving
in there and you see their sign from up front of the plaza, you might be inclined to go
shop there.
Caramagno: Is the blue backdrop and Five Below is that --
Representative: Standard.
Caramagno: -- is that a standard sign?
Representative: Yeah, the background is actually painted on there it’s the wall and then
the letters are installed on it.
Caramagno: Kind of a white or gray or something?
Representative: The letters?
Caramagno: The letters.
Representative: White faces.
Caramagno: That’s all I’ve got now. Thank you.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: The existing sign – when I went by it yesterday, I thought oh, they put the sign
up, but the existing sign how much bigger is this sign going to be compared to that? I
mean, what are the heights of the letters that is existing now?
Hall: The existing letters are now 34 inches and we’re asking them to go up to 39
inches --
Pastor: You need to identify yourself, sir.
Hall: Oh, I’m sorry. I’m Jim Hall with Five Below from Philadelphia, 1818 Martha Street,
Philadelphia. So, we’re asking to increase from a 34 inch size letter to a 39 inch letter.
It would actually give us a 3 ft. more width as well. So, that would constitute the 26 sq.
ft. that we are asking for in addition.
Pastor: Okay. Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 38 August 28, 2012
McCue: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: You just opened another location, did you not?
Hall: Yes, we’ve opened several locations here.
McCue: There’s one right on and I can’t quite place where it is.
Hall: In Northville.
McCue: Is it in Northville?
Hall: Yes.
McCue: Would that signage - then that sign would be the same be the same as what
you’re requesting for now; correct?
Hall: Well --
McCue: The sign - I can’t remember the location I was at, but I saw that sign and I
remember --
Hall: Basically, the same.
McCue: -- it would be the same sign as what you’re requesting now?
Hall: Yes, exactly. That’s our brand it’s the Five Below, the five spelled out and the
below letters.
McCue: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants
to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the podium. I see no one
coming forward. Are there letters?
Caramagno: No.
Henzi: Anything you would like to say in closing?
Hall: I would have to say as a new retailer in southeastern Michigan, we’ve opened a
number of locations we’re up to 11 locations here in the Detroit area and we’ve had
great success and we look forward to opening more locations. Actually, we’re opening
up a location in Ann Arbor in a couple weeks and we look forward to extended growth
and we hope you rule favorably in our request.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 38 August 28, 2012
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Your other locations, are those signs the same size of the sign you are
requesting or are they the same size of the sign that you already have?
Hall: The sizes vary. As a national retailer, our charge is to ask for the maximum sign
allowable and actually aesthetics-wise we want to fit the facades and match surrounding
facades and signage. So, the sign is different it’s all across the board.
Pastor: So, they could be smaller than what you have right now?
Hall: Potentially, potentially.
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: Anything else, Mr. Hall?
Hall: No.
Representative: No, just thank you for your consideration tonight we really appreciate it.
Henzi: Thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s
comments with Mr. Sills.
Sills: I was surprised to see the sign up there today when I drove up. The Ulta sign
next to it is quite large and there are several businesses in that particular congested
shopping center that have signs very comparable to what Five Below wants to put in. I
don’t have any problem with it. It seems to conform with the neighborhood. Like I said,
it’s a very competitive shopping center and I think that the signage is required and I
don’t think the extra 26 ft. is going to really hurt.
Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre.
McIntyre: I don’t have any objections. Following what Mr. Sills just said that is a
congested area. The other thing is there has been a lot of turnover and some vacant
stores if I recall in that particular portion of retail mall and I think that doing something
that doesn’t disrupt or isn’t out-of-line with the rest of the businesses, it gives the
business an increased chance of continuing to be viable makes sense.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Well, I came in here tonight thinking that was the sign. I didn’t understand
that there was a sign up in place of what was being asked for tonight. I didn’t find that
sign to be too overwhelming. I found it to be a decent size. I didn’t think it overstepped
anybody else in that area. Seeing from Middlebelt Road, you know, you could put 10
times the sign there you probably couldn’t see it from Middlebelt Road, but I felt that
when I pulled in the parking lot and started heading east that I could see that sign. So,
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 38 August 28, 2012
walking in here I felt that it was a fair sized sign. You wanting more now or I guess what
you wanted I wasn’t aware of. I’ve got to think it over for another few minutes.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Yeah, I thought the sign that was existing was very comparable to the signage
that’s already there, maybe a tad smaller but more letters, you know, so I don’t know
that another six inches is going to make that much difference and it’s kind of telling
where a retailer comes up and says my job is to get the biggest sign I can possibly get.
I think that’s – I don’t know that I can support this new signage. It’s not that I don’t want
to its just that I thought what they had there was fine. So, I also am going to have to
think about this.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: Yeah, I too, was surprised that the sign was up, but I know when you guys
where up here before I was open to give you a few extra feet based off the corner and
have the minor sign up front. I think the 26 ft. is too much like I said the last time, but I
would be open to doing six to 10 extra feet, but I think that 26 is too much.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: Yes, I have to support what Mr. Duggan was saying. When I have been in
there I think it definitely matches. This was my concern as the last time I think it flows
with the other stores that are in there. I think like you said when you compare it to the
Ulta sign it makes sense. I agree with what we had already said about you’re not going
to be able to see that from Middlebelt anyways and I’m just not convinced that giving a
variance is going to be worthwhile enough to have us make that variance. So, I don’t
believe that I will be able to support increasing the signage.
Henzi: I would support it for a couple of reasons. First of all, when I drove by it seemed
to me that this was much smaller than the Ulta. I shouldn’t say much smaller, to me
they didn’t seem to be mirror image. I think that the Ulta sign is better. My initial
concern was that Ulta was going to learn that there was a variance granted tonight to
possibly ask for a bigger sign. When I heard Mr. Fisher say that that sign isn’t going to
increase, I like that. So to me the 26 sq. ft. excess isn’t that big of a deal. I think that
there is a uniqueness that this property is one of the biggest shopping centers in the
City, but it’s also one of the largest parking lots. No one is ever going to see this
necessarily from Schoolcraft and Middlebelt, but if you enter from Schoolcraft, I mean,
you’re not going to see Five Below for a long time and to me 26 sq. ft, you know, we
give out excesses for folks on major thoroughfares. I think it would be unfair not to give
this one out. This is a huge center and if you enter from Middlebelt, I think there is good
cause for it, too. So, I will listen to the Board to find out if there’s consensus, but I would
support it as is. So, the floor is open for a motion.
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 38 August 28, 2012
Caramagno: I have a question for the Petitioner.
Henzi: Sure.
Caramagno: With the letters changing you’re saying the height just increases does the
width do anything as well?
Hall: The width would increase as well.
Caramagno: How much wider?
Hall: Overall 3 ft. wider. So, a foot and a half on each side would space out a little bit
more on each side so, 5 inches in height and 3 ft. wider.
Caramagno: Again, I wasn’t here for the first meeting. Pertaining to what Mr. Duggan
said, was there ever any discussion of coming in less than the 26 ft. excess?
Hall: What we have installed now is what was approved at the first meeting; is that
correct?
Representative: No, that was approved through the normal process.
Hall: Normal permit process.
Representative: Yeah, we had talked about it briefly. There was a little bit of discussion
at the last meeting about possibly having different signage options and obviously in this
case we would very much like to have the 26 sq. ft, but if there would be a little bit less
that would appease the Board and that we would be able get, we would take something
is better than nothing because they really – visibility is a huge thing, it really is.
Caramagno: Okay. My trouble was certainly – I expected that to be it so as I think
about it I will probably wind up supporting this as well, so I think we have four.
Henzi: Well, if somebody wants to make a motion for a compromise more for the
requested amount. I think there’s a consensus
Caramagno: I think we’ve got the four. I’ll take a shot at it.
Henzi: Okay.
Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-06-28: Ramco/Lion Venture, 13100 Middlebelt,
Livonia, MI 48150, on behalf of Lessee Five Below, 13212 Middlebelt, Livonia, MI
48150, seeking to erect a wall sign, resulting in excess wall sign area.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 38 August 28, 2012
Wall Sign Area
Allowed: 50 sq. ft.
Proposed: 76 sq. ft.
Excess: 26 sq. ft.
The property is located on the east side of Middlebelt (13212) between Schoolcraft and
the CSX Railroad, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the property sits a long way off of
Middlebelt Road and there’s a large parking lot between the major thoroughfare
and the actual building.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because it wouldn’t be able to be recognized entering the parking lot because of
trees, shrubbery, and the islands as well that hinders some of the view.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit
of the Zoning Ordinance because this is a large property in the city of Livonia,
large parking lot, and the buildings in the area do not seem overburdened by
what is there now nor will they be overburdened by 26-sq. ft.
4. The Board received no letters of approval and no letters of objection from
neighboring property owners.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of
the Master Plan because this property is classified “Regional Shopping” under
the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that
classification.
FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions:
1. That the sign be built as presented to the Board, which is 3-ft. wider than what is
currently out there and 4 or 5 inches taller.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, McIntyre, Sills, Henzi
NAYS: Duggan, McCue
Henzi: The variance is granted with that one condition. You’ve got to construct it as you
presented. Good luck.
Hall: Thank you very much.
Representative: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 38 August 28, 2012
(7:20 1/689)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-08-41: Stanley and Kathleen Liu, 29632 Edward Place,
Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a six foot tall vinyl privacy fence within the
side yard which is not allowed. Privacy fences must stop at the rear line of the
home. Privacy fences must stop at the rear line of the home. Privacy fences
cannot be in the side or front yard.
The property is located on the north side of Edward Place (29632) between
Buckingham and Beatrice.
Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add to this case?
Podina: No, sir.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department?
Sills: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: There is an addition on the home that is not shown on the survey map. The
addition is in vinyl. It shows on the photograph, but doesn’t show on the survey map.
Henzi: Are there any violations with that, John, if you know?
Podina: Not that I know of, sir.
Henzi: Anything else for Inspection? Hearing none, will the Petitioners please come to
the podium? Good evening.
Petitioner: Good evening. My name is Stanley Liu. I live at 29632 Edward Place in
Livonia.
Henzi: Can you tell us about the request for the fence and when doing so, could you be
descriptive about the spots where it’s going to be because I’m unclear exactly what
you’re asking for.
Petitioner: We would like to replace the perimeter of the yard with a vinyl fence from a
chain-link fence. We would like to maintain the current gate locations on either side of
the house. That way we are at the same location relative to the gates adjacent to the
house.
Henzi: Okay. And the type of fence is within your packet?
Petitioner: Yes, sir.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 38 August 28, 2012
Henzi: Is that exactly what you propose same color and style? The Stafford model?
Petitioner: It would actually be white. It is the same style and the gate is, I believe it’s
identified as “B” it’s the smaller of the two in the lower left-hand corner.
Henzi: And why do you want to maintain the same gates instead of bringing the gates
to the rear of the house?
Petitioner: Because we would have an offset of approximately 8 ft. to the gate on I
believe it’s the west side of the house. Yeah, 8 ft. to the west side of the house, but if
we went to the addition, which we added back in the early nineties, it would be about 24
ft. And then on the east side of the house, it would be about 10 ft. past it. We believe
that would degrade from the curb appeal of the house. It would look odd.
Henzi: The last question that I have for you is what do the neighbors on either side of
your house say about this?
Petitioner: We have signed approval forms. The contractor has the originals. I have
copies if the Commission wishes to see those I can produce those right now.
Henzi: Sure, if you could pass them around. Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: So, the existing chain link fence on both the east/west and what would be
the north side, do you intend to take all that down; of course?
Petitioner: Yes.
Caramagno: Who has that slatted fence in the back is that yours or the neighbor behind
you?
Petitioner: I don’t know. It was like that when I bought the house back in ’07. It has
always been there. I wasn’t aware of any violation and I realize that’s not an excuse. I
don’t know.
Caramagno: And all of your neighbors are okay with this?
Petitioner: Yes, sir.
Caramagno: Okay. You’re talking about a 6 ft. tall solid right to the top any lattice on
the top foot?
Petitioner: No, it is solid. It’s just like the picture in the packet.
Caramagno: Have you considered any lattice on the top to soften it up a little bit?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 38 August 28, 2012
Petitioner: No, we didn’t because the main objective of the fence is to hide that hidden
stairwell that I have a photo of in the packet.
Caramagno: Okay. Just thought I’d ask.
Henzi: How many of those forms did you pass around because I just see the rear
neighbor.
Petitioner: We have four neighbors, four adjacent neighbors.
Sills: They’re not all the same.
McIntyre: No, they’re not all the same. I’m sorry. No, they’re not all the same. We’ve
got Brett Hoffman, Claudette Landry. So, we’ve got two.
Caramagno: I’ve got Landry.
McIntyre: Those are the only – I just, I hung one to one, I did not realize that they wre
different.
Caramagno: Do you have any different from Hoffman and Landry?
Pastor: Yeah.
Henzi: Thursey on Mason.
Pastor: Yeah, but they’re but the same; aren’t they?
McIntyre: Same just different people.
Henzi: Yes, these are different forms, but it’s the same person.
Petitioner: I can pass around another copy of the Keilers. I haven’t heard you mention
their name.
Henzi: You’ve got four. You’ve got two neighbors because there’s two neighbors share
your backyard.
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: And then you’ve got the folks that live on either side of you on Edward Place?
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: Okay. Any other questions for the Petitioner?
McIntyre: Mr. Chair.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 38 August 28, 2012
Henzi: Mrs. McInyre.
McIntyre: And I’m sorry if I missed something. The reason that you don’t want to
consider a lattice having to do with the rear stairwell I didn’t understand the relationship
between not wanting any lattice and your rear.
Petitioner: We didn’t want the rear stairwell to be visible from street level.
McIntyre: For reasons of security?
Petitioner: Yes.
McIntyre: Okay.
Petitioner: Our neighbor was burglarized within the last year or so and this is a hidden
stairwell.
Henzi: Anything else? Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the
audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the
podium. Seeing no one coming forward can you read the letters, please?
Caramagno: Yes. Sofia Weiland [29821 Mason] (letter was read). Thomas Weiland
[29821 Mason] (letter was read). Mike Bonnici [29615 Edward] no objection (letter was
read). Kathleen Jatczak [29735 Mason] approval (letter was read). Craig (& Nancy)
Virzi [29709 Mason] approval (letter was read).
Henzi: Mr. Liu, anything you would like to say in closing?
Petitioner: Not at this time, sir.
Henzi: Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s
comments with Mrs. McIntyre.
McIntyre: Well, I always really like to think about the reasons for a variance especially
when it’s on a corner lot. I also think that the fact that you want to put in a fence to
improve the security and also a fence that it is aesthetically pleasing that your neighbors
agree to I could be supportive of this. Thank you.
Petitioner: I just want to clarify we do not live on a corner lot.
McIntyre: No, that’s what I – I’m sorry. I said because you do not live on a corner lot
there is privacy concerns on a corner lot that you don’t necessarily have when you’re in
a non-corner lot.
Petitioner: Oh, I understand. I’m sorry about that.
McIntyre: Sorry for the confusion.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 38 August 28, 2012
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Well, yeah, you keep a very nice well-maintained place there and I can
understand your need for privacy. The fact that you’re putting up a vinyl fence that’s
constructed well and looks good and has a long life expectancy I’m sure runs well with
me. Privacy, if you’ve had a house burglarized in the neighborhood, I can see where
that can run some insecurity to you and I don’t think this will look bad. There’s others in
the neighborhood and there’s other fences in the neighbors there’s not a lot of vinyl.
This vinyl hopefully let others know when they want to do it that this is probably the way
to go.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Yeah, I don’t have a whole lot of heartburn over this one. He’s in the middle of
the block. He does have a point about the stairwell, so I can support this.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: Well, I too, will be in support. You are in the middle of the road, but you have
support from all your neighbors and I think that it’s great, so I will be in support.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: I agree. It looks nice. The support of the neighbors that’s one of the biggest
things that I like to look at, so I will be in support as well.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: I found the general maintenance on the property is good. The yard is quite large.
The only question I would have with Petitioner is that would you feel like an island with
this privacy fence? I didn’t see too many other privacy fences in the neighborhood.
Petitioner: Well, sir, I don’t think we would. We spend considerable time in the front
yard as well as the backyard. The neighbor next door to us has a patio that looks right
at our deck and he’s made the comment, too, you know, I can grow some bushes or oh,
I see you’re putting up a fence. So, we think it’s a win/win situation.
Sills: And you do have an awfully large patio, too, haven’t you?
Petitioner: Yeah, yeah, a deck, yes.
Sills: I think I can be in support of this. I just wondered how you would feel about
having a privacy fence around your perimeter of your yard?
Petitioner: We’ve lived in the neighborhood for 17 years and, you know, we know pretty
much everybody especially the people adjacent to us. We’re in very good terms with all
of them as you can see by them agreeing to approve our fence.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 38 August 28, 2012
Sills: Well, I could support the petition then.
Petitioner: Thank you.
Henzi: I, too, will support the request. I think it’s a nice-looking fence, you know, I’m not
always in favor with bringing the fence towards the front of the house, but you’ve had
chain link that has come towards the front of the house for at least 17 years and I also
think that it would look worse if we had off-setting fences like you reasoned for putting it
up as you planned so, I think that those are all good reasons. I’d like to see, of course,
that all chain link is removed and replaced with the vinyl as you proposed with the
model that you proposed. So, the floor is open for a motion.
Upon Motion by McCue, supported by Sills, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-08-41: Stanley and Kathleen Liu, 29632
Edward Place, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a six foot tall vinyl privacy
fence within the side yard which is not allowed. Privacy fences must stop at the
rear line of the home. Privacy fences must stop at the rear line of the home.
Privacy fences cannot be in the side or front yard.
The property is located on the north side of Edward Place (29632) between
Buckingham and Beatrice, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because there is a unique stairwell in the
rear of their home and they feel the need for additional security.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because they do have a stairwell that will not be hidden.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the
spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because it is aesthetically pleasing, neighbors
are in support, and there are other fences in the neighborhood.
4. The Board received five (5) letters of approval and no letters of objection from
neighboring property owners.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective
of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low-Density
Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not
inconsistent with that classification.
FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions:
1. That the fence be completed within the next six months.
2. That the fence be built as proposed on the plans, which were presented to the
Board.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 38 August 28, 2012
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: McCue, Sills, Caramagno, Duggan, McIntyre, Pastor, Henzi
NAYS: None.
Henzi: The variance is granted with those two conditions. It’s good for six months that
doesn’t mean that it expires in six months it means you’ve got six months within which
to build it. And then you’ve got to build it as proposed with the same materials, location,
et cetera. Good luck.
Petitioner: Thank you very much.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 38 August 28, 2012
APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-08-42: Marc and Jenny Perino, 16628 Quakertown, Livonia,
MI 48154, seeking to erect a six foot tall privacy fence upon a corner lot, along
the side street property line resulting in the fence being excess in height, placed
in the side yard and the fence does not align with any fence on adjoining
property. Privacy fences must stop at the rear line of the home and cannot
extend into the side or front yard.
Fence Height:
Allowed: Five ft.
Proposed: Six ft.
Excess: One ft.
The property is located on the east side of Quakertown (16628) between
Stacey and Reo Court.
Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add to this case?
Podina: Nothing at this time, sir.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Welcome.
Petitioner: Good evening. How are you doing today?
Henzi: Good. Can you tell us your names and address?
Petitioner: Yes. I’m Mark Perino. My address is 16628 Quakertown.
Mrs. Perino: I’m Jenny Perino, same address.
Henzi: Can you tell us why you want to erect the side yard fence?
Petitioner: Yeah, a few reasons. We do have two small children, as well as a family
dog. Right now our backyard that we currently have is not a very large yard. Now, we
do currently want to replace the existing fence that is there, regardless, but the fence is
older and out-of-date and not really in good shape. It was like that when we moved in,
but we would like to use our side yard, which currently is the largest part of our yard.
Basically at this point in time, it can’t be used for us or for our children, basically for our
children or our dog. Quakertown, if you know, it’s a main street through our subdivision,
Quakertown Subdivision. Cars do come going through there at a pretty quick speed
most of the time over 25 miles per hours and it’s a safety concern for us and for our
children and for our dog. So, basically we want more space for our children and for our
dog to enjoy.
Henzi: I just have a couple questions. When did you move in?
Petitioner: We moved in, in 2008.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 38 August 28, 2012
Mrs. Perino: 7.
Petitioner: I’m sorry, November of 2007, the end of the year of 2007.
Henzi: And was the existing wood fence there when you moved in?
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: And then what about the fence of your neighbors across the street?
Petitioner: That was there, yeah, when we moved in, yes.
Mrs. Perino: Which kind of gave us the impression that oh, it wouldn’t be a big deal if
we buy this house to eventually fence it in.
Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioners?
Sills: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: You basically have a corner lot?
Petitioner: Correct.
Sills: The front of your house faces Quakertown Street, which you said has quite a bit
of traffic.
Petitioner: Right.
Sills: I’ve been in Quakertown quite often and I really don’t agree with you as
Quakertown having a lot of traffic and going to the side of your house, you’re going into
a cul-de-sac --
Petitioner: Correct.
Sills: -- which doesn’t have any traffic at all.
Petitioner: Not on the side of the house. There’s a main street Quakertown is what I
was implying.
Mrs. Perino: Yeah.
Sills: And I was just concerned about – I was looking at the fence that was there that
has seen better days.
Petitioner: Right.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 38 August 28, 2012
Sills: And I was wondering why you would want to come along the side of your house
with the fence when you could just go out from the back of your house toward the street
and increase your yard that you have at the present time without being in any violation
whatsoever.
Mrs. Perino: Right. We have our garden on the side as well as the garage door, so just
to have access – like keep the garage door shut and have access with like our kids to
get to our garden on that side and not have to worry that they’re going to run out and go
into the street. And just be able to pick our vegetables and play games over there and
kind of enjoy that space, too.
Sills: I can understand that. In driving around the neighborhood the only corner lot that
I did see was at Quakertown and Lapham. They have a fenced side yard there and I
don’t know whether they applied for a permit or not on that, but that’s in violation also.
That’s the only one that I’ve seen that had a fenced side yard other than what your
request is.
Petitioner: And the neighbor directly across from us as well, which would be on the
other side of the court from us.
Sills: Does he have a fenced side yard?
Petitioner: He does.
Mrs. Perino: I have pictures.
Petitioner: There are some pictures of his --
Mrs. Perino: I’m almost positive that they pulled a permit for that because the neighbor
next to them – the people who live there currently are renting so the owner’s not there,
but the owners next to them told us that, you know, they had to come here and request
it when they were each doing their fences.
Sills: So, you claim that your hardship is with your children and your pet would be in
danger of traffic or something?
Mrs. Perino: Yeah, and just overall safety. I mean my car have had stuff stolen from it.
We just had the cushions off of our porch taken. There’s like syringes at our park, so
it’s just kind of protect our area.
Petitioner: And we feel that the 6 ft. privacy fence in terms of somebody walking along
the sidewalk or somebody could see our kids in the yard and anything lower than a 6 ft.
privacy fence can be seen in and also can be reached over. So, we feel that our kids
are in danger by not having something that’s large enough to keep somebody out of our
yard and to keep somebody from seeing over or reaching over and having access to our
children just in general.
Sills: Okay. I don’t have any more. Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 38 August 28, 2012
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone that’s in the audience who
wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the podium. I see no
one coming forward. Can you reach the letters?
Mrs. Perino: We have a couple extra ones from the neighbors that brought to us.
Caramagno: We have Cynthia Knitter [38749 Stacey Ct.] No objection (letter was read).
Jim (& Linda) Ayres [16741 Quakertown] approval (letter was read). Approval from
Gary Newton [38717 Stacey Ct.]. Carmela Bownes [38726 Meeting House Lane]
approval (letter was read). Donna Ghannam [38694 Meeting House Lane] approval
(letter was read). Linda Mancinelli [38775 Meeting House Lane] approval (letter was
read).
Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Perino, anything else you would like to say in closing?
Petitioner: No.
Mrs. Perino: No, thank you for considering it.
Henzi: Okay. Thank you.
Petitioner: Thank you.
Henzi: I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with
Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: The photographs here – you’ve got overwhelming neighborhood support
here.
Mrs. Perino: I’ve lived in that neighborhood for a long time.
Caramagno: I’ve got to say I didn’t see a lot of fences especially 6 ft. vinyl fences in the
neighborhood, but I did see some lower maybe 4 ft. heights. Your yard is certainly – I
guess I will call it an odd ball. It’s kind of a short backyard with a lot of room on the side.
What’s there is kind of a dilapidated wood fence half fallen down it looks like in some
areas. I think this makes an overall improvement to the property and I will be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: The 6 ft. fence doesn’t give me a lot of pause, but extending it to the front of the
front yard I can’t support that, so I would be willing to support the 6 ft, but not extended
all the way up to the front of the house.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: I, too, will support. I think you guys are right on the corner there with two
young kids, a dog, and cushions being stolen in the past I understand why you want the
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 38 August 28, 2012
fence that way. And you have a ton of support from the neighborhood, so I will be in
support.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: I agree. I also will be in support. I think that it’s great that you’re obviously
willing to invest the financial resources to put a fence up like this. And I also
understand the need to feel more secure - any of our neighborhoods when you start
seeing things just disappear whether it’s a cushion or whatever, it makes you
uncomfortable. All of your neighbors are obviously in support and I will agree and in
one of the neighborhoods that I live in that since we took the stop signs down and we
did things people are going tremendously faster through our neighborhood, so for all
those reasons I will support.
Petitioner: Thank you.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: I was originally negative on this petition, but the support you have from your
neighbors has certainly swayed me over to your side, so I will be in support.
Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre.
McIntyre: I had some reservations because of the 6 ft. fence, I mean, those are high
fences and I guess I struggle a little bit with the idea that you needed that so that people
wouldn’t reach over the fence and snatch your kids or your dog.
Petitioner: You’ve never seen my kids.
Mrs. Perino: They’re really cute.
McIntyre: And I’m not belittling your statements, but given the strong support from your
neighbors and again, when people are willing to invest money to improve their property
and make their – do it in a way that’s pleasing to their neighbors which you would
assume then that will enhance the quality of the neighborhood, I like to be supportive of
that.
Petitioner: Thank you.
Henzi: When I got the packet, I didn’t think I would be voting for it. I am today. I can
tell you why. I consider Quakertown to be a subdivision with a lot of open spaces, but
that’s why we drive through and I can understand that you moved in to a property where
across the street they have a side yard privacy fence and that would cause you to think
when you were looking to buy the house, this is something that some day we can do.
You also have an existing privacy screen. You didn’t go into it blindly like a lot of
homeowners do, so I think that you probably when you bought you thought eventually
some day we are going to do this. Not just that, I thought that on Stacey Court there
were several privacy fences, they’re not all corner yards, but I saw several. So for at
least that little pocket of Quakertown I think that, you know, this is not that big of a deal.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 38 August 28, 2012
I think that they’re everywhere. I think you have demonstrated good cause, so I will go
along with what you are requesting.
Petitioner: Thank you.
Henzi: The floor is open for a motion.
Upon Motion by Duggan, supported by McCue, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-08-42: Marc and Jenny Perino, 16628
Quakertown, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a six foot tall privacy fence upon
a corner lot, along the side street property line resulting in the fence being excess
in height, placed in the side yard and the fence does not align with any fence on
adjoining property. Privacy fences must stop at the rear line of the home and
cannot extend into the side or front yard.
Fence Height:
Allowed: Five ft.
Proposed: Six ft.
Excess: One ft.
The property is located on the east side of Quakertown (16628) between
Stacey and Reo Court, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because their home is located on a corner
lot.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner due to
the lay out of their yard and safety issues for their children.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit
of the Zoning Ordinance because there is an overwhelming support from
neighbors.
4. The Board received six (6) letters of approval and no letters of objection from
neighboring property owners.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of
the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low-Density Residential”
under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that
classification.
FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions:
1. That the fence be built as proposed on the plans, which were presented to the
Board.
2. That the existing fence be removed.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 38 August 28, 2012
3. That the variance is good for six months.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Duggan, McCue, McIntyre, Sills, Caramagno, Henzi
NAYS: Pastor
Henzi: The variance is granted with those three conditions. You have to build it as
presented. You have to do it within six months and you have to remove the existing
fence.
Petitioner: Will do. Thank you.
Mrs. Perino: Thank you.
Petitioner: Have a great night.
Henzi: You too.
Henzi: Good luck.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 38 August 28, 2012
(7:50 #1/1657)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-08-43: Gary Jackson, 29617 Puritan, Livonia, MI 48154,
seeking to construct an addition on to a nonconforming detached garage
resulting in excess garage area. Nonconformity is based on the existing garage
side yard setback of three feet where five feet is required.
Garage Area
Allowed: 660 sq. ft.
Proposed: 1012 sq. ft.
Existing: 484 sq. ft.
Excess: 352 sq. ft.
The property is located on the south side of Puritan (29617) between Middlebelt and
Oporto.
Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add to this case?
Podina: Not at this time, sir.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the Petitioner
please come to the podium?
Petitioner: Good evening. My name is Gary Jackson, resident of 29617 Puritan. I have
been a resident of Livonia for almost 20 years in another house that I have over on
Curtis Street. Recently got divorced and bought this home as a foreclosed home. I’ve
got two boys and got a lot stuff to store and want to do things. That’s what I’m up
against.
Henzi: Can you tell us, first of all about the building materials and second of all, why
you need the excess garage.
Petitioner: Well, for one I need to have taller walls because I have a brain-injured child
and a handicapped van. And I want to be able to bring him into the garage to unload
him depending on weather and stuff like that and to store it when I have him on the
weekends. I have stuff that’s being stored at storage lots that I’m paying money on
because I don’t have the garage room and I don’t want them outside. I have racecars,
snowmobiles. I have garden equipment. I plan on doing a garden with my boys. Stuff I
have to bring back from my mom and dad’s house – stuff I’ve got everywhere that I
need to have an access to and out of weather.
Henzi: And then what about the building materials? What’s it going to look like –
shingles to match that sort of thing?
Petitioner: Shingles are going to match the home and the siding that’s on the garage
existing now will be continued all the way through. I have a question as far as the
existing garage. We were planning on utilizing the two sidewalls take out the back and
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 38 August 28, 2012
remove the roof, but I want to know if it’s possible if I just get rid of the whole garage,
would that be probably a better way to go?
Henzi: Mr. Podina?
Podina: It’s something that we would want to see plans on.
Henzi: Generally when somebody wants to do that, if they want to demolish the garage,
they have to get a permit and in doing that do they have then also get permission to
build --
Podina: They have to get a permit from the demolition first of all and then they have to
present plans as to the size of the garage that he intends to build. That might be a
dual thing, do you know what I’m saying, where as far as approval for that and there
may be a variance that’s required for that as well.
Henzi: Okay. Go ahead.
Petitioner: So it would be better just to use the existing garage and add from that
instead of demolishing; is that what I’m getting?
Henzi: I don’t know.
Podina: That would be something you would have to decide. You would probably
come in and talk to maybe planning and discuss it with them.
Petitioner: Yeah, because I talked to John about it and he was kind of giving me some
ideas on how to go about it and stuff like that.
Podina: That would be the way I would go.
Petitioner: Okay.
Podina: Again, that’s up to you.
Petitioner: Okay.
Henzi: Well, that begs the questions because you’re going to get asked questions
about what’s this going to look like and things like that. I mean, are you now
reconsidering what you proposed this to look like because if you are then --
Petitioner: That’s a whole different deal.
Henzi: -- we could table it and you could go talk to the Building Department and then
decide whether you want to demolish or add on.
Petitioner: Well, we did talk about it and we were thinking on razing what the existing
and just add on the back. I think that would be the cheaper way to go because money
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 38 August 28, 2012
is a cost factor for me. So, I’m thinking on just going that route and it would like exactly
what it looks like now except extended. It’s not going extend in width just depth and
height on the roof. It would have 6/12 pitch with conventional rafters nothing fancy just
enough to get the van in is really all I need.
Henzi: And the height is 16 ft; right?
Petitioner: Total, correct, yes.
Henzi: Do you have to have a special door?
Petitioner: No, just enough to clear the van so the header would have to be, I believe, 9
1/2 ft. or actually 9 ft. to get the van in because I want to have everything towards the
back so I can pull the van in off to side and unloaded my son off from there.
Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner?
Sills: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: In the event that you were thinking of demolishing the existing garage, would your
plans be on constructing a new garage would it be closer to the house?
Petitioner: It would be exactly where the existing garage is just back further. I’m not
going to plan on bringing it up forward or bringing it back any further.
Sills: But your side setback would come in further to conform with the ordinance;
wouldn’t it?
Petitioner: From what I was told, I could use would be – because we were planning on
using the existing garage just leave it right where it’s at just extend it and raise it and put
the 6/12 pitch on it with just a conventional rafter and just leave it as that.
Sills: You could do that, but the existing has got a side yard of 3 ft.
Petitioner: Oh, you mean towards my line?
Sills: Toward the side right.
Petitioner: Correct.
Sills: And if you were to build a new garage, you’d have to –
Petitioner: I’d have to go over 2 more feet; correct?
Sills: You’d have to go over 2 more feet.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 38 August 28, 2012
Petitioner: Yeah, to get to the 5 ft. I understand.
Sills: Right.
Petitioner: No, I don’t want to do that.
Sills: Okay. So then you will want to take the existing garage that you have and add to
the back end of it.
Petitioner: Correct.
Sills: I notice in the back of the garage you have it cleared out.
Petitioner: Yes.
Sills: Already for that --
Petitioner: Well, what I did is, yes, I cleared it out so I can actually get access to the
back because it’s really beautiful back there. It’s all hardwoods. I’ve got it towards, you
know, my son can ride his bike back there.
Sills: How far back does your property go? It goes considerably.
Petitioner: About 300 ft.
Sills: 300 ft.
Petitioner: By 70.
Sills: And I did notice you have a comparatively new deck built in the back.
Petitioner: I just did that.
Sills: With the ramps.
Petitioner: Oh, you did see that.
Sills: So, that suggested to me that there was a problem in the house with somebody.
Petitioner: Yeah, I had to get that done right away.
Sills: Okay. There’s nobody living in the house right now?
Petitioner: No, I’m living in the house. I have residence to the home.
Sills: Oh, you’re in there right now?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 38 August 28, 2012
Petitioner: Yes. That’s why I got all the bushes ripped out and I’m getting ready to do
the front yard and clean it up quite a bit.
Sills: Because it didn’t look like anybody was living in there right now and I did notice
the driveway was asphalt, but it’s really in pretty bad shape.
Petitioner: It’s going to be concrete. Eventually, I will probably be in front of you again
just because I don’t like asphalt and it is in bad shape, but that’s next on the agenda for
sure.
Sills: And you have to take care of the yard the grass and everything, tool.
Petitioner: Well, what happened was is I’ve been fertilizing my grass for two years with
Tru Green and when we had the drought. They came and sprayed my yard when my
grass was pretty much not there and then all of a sudden I’ve got all these weeds now.
I’ve been dealing with them for two years now, so I’m fighting with that right now that’s
why I kind of left it because I’m taking pictures and dealing with them on why my yard
looks like that after two years of dealing with Tru Green.
Sills: So, you’ve had the existing property for two years?
Petitioner: Correct, just under two years.
Sills: Okay. And you intend to move the boys in when?
Petitioner: Well, I’ve got weekend custody with my boys and my ex-wife lives in my
previous home on Curtis Street and Wayne Road, 35480 Curtis. We’ve had that home
for going on 20 years now.
Sills: Thank you very much.
Petitioner: Thank you.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I’m looking at these plans and obviously you drew them by hand. Do you plan
on putting a second garage door in this towards the back?
Petitioner: That was maybe down the road. I’m not sure yet. At one time I was
planning on putting one on the side of the addition part facing the west side for access,
you know, and if me and the boys are in there, we’ve got air that can blow through, but
I’m not really sure yet on how I’m going to that. I’ve got a new drawing that actually my
dad did, but I don’t know if it’s going to be any help and I’ve got copies for everybody.
It’s basically off the build plan with just the addition and a little bit of side stuff, but it’s – I
don’t think it’s in detail of what you guys are wanting to see, but I’ll present it if it may?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 38 August 28, 2012
Pastor: You said you had two racecars, your van, your handicapped van.
Petitioner: Well, one’s a streetcar and one’s a drag car; correct.
Pastor: Is the car I saw on the side of the garage?
Petitioner: Yes, that’s my – yeah, I bought it from my brother. Yeah, it’s my project car.
My son turns 16 September 10th and that’s his car, my handicapped son it’s what I’m
doing for him.
Pastor: Normally when we get something like this we get a little floor plan I’m going to
put a car, I’m going to put a lawn mower here. This is a --
Petitioner: Kind of basic?
Pastor: This is extremely basic and not only that this is as big as your house. To my
knowledge, I don’t think we have ever approved a garage as big as the house. So, I’m
really struggling with this here. I understand you have a handicapped son I understand
that, but building a garage as big as your house in my opinion I don’t think – what kind
of power are you going to have out in this garage?
Petitioner: I think I’ve got a 30 amp circuit out there right now.
Pastor: That’s all you plan on doing is 20/30 amp circuit, lights?
Petitioner: As of right now, yeah, because I would have to dig it up and redo it anyways
to get anything bigger to a 60 to 100 amp just something for lights.
Pastor: Are you suggesting that you may put 60 or 100 amps in there?
Petitioner: As of right now, I’m undecided on that because financially I couldn’t afford to
do it.
Pastor: Well, normally we limit it to only a couple circuits only because we don’t want
this to turn into a garage, backyard mechanics garage or something along those lines.
Petitioner: Right, correct.
Pastor: Thank you, that’s all for right this moment.
Petitioner: I believe I was talking to John and he was mentioning that I could have up to
10 ft. walls with a 6/12 pitch and 22 ft. behind. Actually it was 20 ½ ft. and basically all
I’m asking is for 3 ½ ft. and the reason why is because I have option to put a shed in the
back. Well, I don’t want a shed. I want to aggregate that square footage into this
garage that’s the reason why I’m asking for the extra square footage.
Henzi: Oh, you mean if you took the 200 sq. ft.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 38 August 28, 2012
Petitioner: Correct. That would be my shed square footage, which I’m not going to
plan on putting up at all. That’s why I’m asking for the existing.
Pastor: Yeah, but you’re still asking for even an addition 152 ft. after that.
Petitioner: Correct.
Pastor: So even if you add your shed into that what is allowed, you’re still asking for
more than that.
Petitioner: Correct.
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: Did you do all the clearing work in the backyard? It looks pretty good.
Petitioner: Friends of the family did, yeah. He’s an excavator and come out there and
actually just cleared it out and had a couple stumps removed, trees that were there that
I had to get out of there and clean it up. Just to make it where it was before it was from
the back of the garage on it was just brush and weeds and big trees and I cleared it all
around the trees to make it more where you can look in the back. I’ve got deer that
come up to me daily. There’s a 6 point buck with a fawn and I mean its beautiful and
now that I’ve opened it up there’s these – I don’t know what kind of bushes that are
growing under – they’re eating all that up. So, actually it was a plus it worked out better
because more sun gets back there and it grows a lot better that way. It seems to be
anyway.
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants
to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up.
Petitioner: They’re not against it. They’re my neighbors.
Henzi: Famous last words.
Terras: Hello, I’m Michelle Macky-Terras. I’m at 29629 Puritan. We’re completely for
him doing that because before he moved in it was vacant. The bank was not taking
care of the property at all. My husband and I were keeping up on it just because it was
such an eyesore. He’s come in and completely flipped the house and its been fantastic.
I mean, of course like he said, it is a slower process because it only takes money to do
everything, you know, but he’s done the bushes, the weeds. Besides like he said with
the weeds right now his yard has always been taken care of. It’s been cut. He has a
company that comes in and does it so, we are absolutely are 100 percent for it. Our
thing is it’s going to be in the back and we have to look at it, but it goes in the back and
with privacy fences it doesn’t affect the neighbors seeing it and we have talked to
neighbors. I don’t know what you guys have, but like everyone said we can’t see it.
We’re the one’s that see it and I think it’s great. If that’s what he wants to do with it and
his sons, they’re there every other weekend. They’re outside playing and well, his
handicapped son isn’t, but you know, he’s in the backyard and we’re completely for this.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 38 August 28, 2012
Henzi: Can you say your address one more time?
Terras: Sure. It’s 29629.
Henzi: Thank you.
Terras: Thank you.
Sills: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: I have one more question for the Petitioner. You have some gravel on the side of
your garage right now. Do you intend to leave that there or do you intend to put
concrete in there or what is your intention?
Petitioner: For right now, I was planning on leaving it there until when I actually do what
I’m going to decide to do as far the driveway.
Sills: Okay.
Petitioner: And I was actually maybe kind of corrugate it a little bit back further.
Sills: Okay. Thank you.
Martin: Christopher Martin, 12275 Inkster Road, Livonia 48150. I would be in favor of
almost anything this guy wanted to do to be quite honest with you. My first thought is
you want raise the garage it happens quite often as people just jack it up and put two
rows of cinder block under it. He wants to bump out the back. He can do that. Most
people house, garage, whatever they try to maintain one wall and demo the rest so it
just seems to be easier with the permits, but as far as having a garage that’s deemed to
be large by some of you, your standards possibly. I like to work on cars. I know a lot of
people that do. They have a lot of money invested in their garage and especially in
vehicles you’ll see them at Dream Cruise periodically. As far as bumping it up from a 30
amp to 100, if it’s necessary. I’d be in favor of almost anything especially with a
disabled child. So, think about it clearly. I’d be in support of it.
Henzi: Thank you. Anyone else want to speak for or against? I see no one coming
forward. Are there letters?
Caramagno: Yes, there are. We have Mary DiPonio [29606 Puritan] approval (letter
was read). Denise Wells [29609 Puritan] sends an approval.
Henzi: Mr. Jackson, is there anything you would like to say in closing?
Petitioner: No, I’m all set. Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 38 August 28, 2012
Henzi: Okay. Thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the
Board’s comments with Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Yes, well, I’m struggling with this due to the fact of the size, due to the fact that
we don’t have clear plans of exactly what he is going to do. The Petitioner says, well,
I’m thinking I might do that or I might do this. I’m uncomfortable with mights. I like to
see something a little clearer. I’m not looking for professional plans. I’m looking for
something I can say put a stamp on it and say, yeah, okay. I can go with this. I think
the size is too big and I understand your issue. I really do, but even though you do have
a large lot. It’s as big as house and I can’t remember one case –
Petitioner: That house is only 1,000 sq. ft. though. No, 90 - 90 actually it’s not that big
of a home, which I understand --
Pastor: I understand, but I don’t remember one case where we have had a garage that
was bigger than the house. So, at this particular moment I would probably be in favor of
tabling this so you can give us a little more clearer definition on where you plan on going
with this. Unless you’re telling me you’re going to build this tomorrow I think you have
some time.
Petitioner: No, this thing has to be done by winter.
Pastor: I can understand that, but I just – I’m struggling with it, so I’m not in favor of it
as presented.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: I had a couple of questions on – you had a lot of mights. But I thought with a
lot of the building many issues you can coordinate with the Inspection or Building
Department. But as far as – you have a foreclosed home and you’re investing in the
property, you know, you have the disabled child. You have a pretty decent size
property. After you add on the shed, you know, you’re really asking for about 150 sq. ft.
is how I look at it and with the disabled child and you need it. I will be in favor.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: I agree. I will also be in support. I feel that with the special needs issues that
you have, again the size of the lot and the size of the garage versus the house, there’s
a few different factors going on in there. The one thing that sealed it for me was when
you said that you were obviously not going to be wanting to put any other kind of shed
or anything else in the backyard, so I will support.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: I don’t see anything unreasonable that the Petitioner is asking for. I sympathize
with him in a couple of instances with the – I know it’s difficult to raise a child that has an
impairment.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 38 August 28, 2012
Petitioner: It changes your whole life.
Sills: And being that you did buy a foreclosed home there’s an awful lot of money that
has to be invested in and around the house I’m sure and for those reasons I am going
to support you on this. I think you’ve got enough problems as it is and wintertime isn’t
too far away.
Petitioner: No. Thank you. It’s getting tight.
Sills: It seems like – I don’t know where summer went, but that went in a hurry, but I will
be glad to see the 95 degree temperature gone, too.
Petitioner: And the 100.
Sills: I will be in support of your petition.
Petitioner: Thank you.
Henzi: Mrs. McIntyre.
McIntyre: I really appreciate your choosing to stay in Livonia, obviously probably to be
close to your kids, but also because I like to think it’s a community where people like if
they’ve lived there, they like to stay here. Buying a foreclosed home and thinking about
accommodating your needs, your child’s needs in a way that is aesthetically pleasing
given the distance between the house and the garage. I understand that it is going to
be a large garage relative to the square footage of the house, but it is set back from the
house. And again, because your lot is so deep it is certainly not going to dwarf your lot
in any way, and I really like the fact that what you want to do is have one structure to
keep all your things in. I would much rather see a nice-looking garage that fits the lot
size, that matches the house with all of your things stored inside.
Petitioner: Not lying around.
McIntyre: Nothing to me looks worse than walking or driving through a neighborhood
where there are lawnmowers and bikes, you know, all over the place. So, I will be
supportive of this. Thank you.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: As Craig said, this is an awful big garage you’re asking for and there isn’t
a real beautiful picture of what it’s going to look like. That’s always nice for me to see.
It’s hard for me to visualize some of these things, but also as I hear about the
lawnmowers outside and bicycles and boats and campers that to me is very unsightly
as well. As a matter of fact, I was going to ask you about that car in the woods next to
you, that red car back there.
Petitioner: That’s not mine that’s my neighbor’s.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 38 August 28, 2012
Caramagno: I figured it was, but as I look at that to me that’s very unsightly. I’d rather
look at a larger garage than a car tucked in the woods or whatever else to be stuck back
there any day of the week. So, handling your possessions and putting them away is a
good thing. Your handicapped child situation is certainly a hardship for the weekends
that you have your children so, I am going to be in support. The visual impact of the
garage as opposed to the house size versus size won’t be very detectable from the road
because of the woods in the back of your lot, everything is forward to backwards. It’s
not a wide overbearing garage so I will support it as well.
Henzi: I knew the day would come when a petitioner would want a garage as big as
their house, you know, between Five and Six, Merriman and Middlebelt, I mean, that’s
just chock-full with properties like this especially when we’ve got somebody who’s got
hobbies that include cars or things like that. You definitely deserve a bigger garage
there’s no doubt about it and I’d like to thank you for what you’ve done to this house. I
was surprised to hear that it was a foreclosed property because it certainly doesn’t look
it. It looks very, very nice. Having said all that, I would move to table because I’m like
Mr. Pastor. Although I think you’ve got good reason for a bigger garage you’re asking
to erect a 528 sq. foot addition with handwritten plans that have two different proposals
for what size the garage door is going to be. So, I would ask to table it. There’s
consensus to approve you tonight and I assume that there will be a motion although
those lines. I will just ask that those people consider these conditions standard
electrical service, no outbuildings, and then pin down the size of the garage door and
then building materials to match what exists. So, having said that, the floor is open for a
motion.
Pastor: Mr. Chair, I will make a tabling resolution.
Henzi: Go ahead, Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Appeal Case 2012-08-43 be tabled to give the Petitioner a little more time to
get us plans that we tells what he is doing a little clearer. I suggest that he can come
back as soon as possible to do this.
Petitioner: Now, do I have to wait for another hearing?
Henzi: Hang one. We’ll get to that. Is there support for the motion?
Caramagno: I’ll support. I’d like to see a plan. I don’t have a problem with the size, but
I would like to see the plan.
Henzi: All right. There is a motion to table by Mr. Pastor, support by Mr. Caramagno.
Under Roberts Rules there is no discussion on a tabling resolution, so call the roll,
please.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Pastor, Caramagno, Heinz
NAYS: Duggan, McCue, McIntyre, Sills
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 38 August 28, 2012
Henzi: Okay. That fails. Does somebody else want to make a motion?
Petitioner: So, basically try again?
Henzi: Wait.
McCue: You’re not done yet.
Henzi: You’re not done.
Petitioner: Oh, okay. You scared me.
Henzi: It’s not tabled. That one failed to have the votes. So, somebody is going to
make another motion I think.
McCue: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue:
Upon Motion by McCue, supported by Sills, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-08-43: Gary Jackson, 29617 Puritan, Livonia,
MI 48154, seeking to construct an addition on to a nonconforming detached
garage resulting in excess garage area. Nonconformity is based on the existing
garage side yard setback of three feet where five feet is required.
Garage Area
Allowed: 660 sq. ft.
Proposed: 1012 sq. ft.
Existing: 484 sq. ft.
Excess: 352 sq. ft.
The property is located on the south side of Puritan (29617) between Middlebelt and
Oporto, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because Petitioner has a special needs child
and needs special allowances as far as transportation and those types of things
for the property.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because it would not make it possible for the handicapped van during inclement
weather.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the
spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because this is a deep lot and the improvements to
the neighborhood by purchasing a foreclosed property.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 38 August 28, 2012
4. The Board received two (2) letters of approval and no letters of objection from
neighboring property owners.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of
the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low-Density Residential”
under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that
classification.
FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions:
1. That there be no outbuildings on the property.
2. That the garage be built with standard electrical service not exceed 110 volts.
3. That the garage be built as presented to the Board using materials to match the
plans.
4. That the door shall not exceed 9-ft.
5. That the variance is good for six months.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: McCue, Sills, McIntyre, Duggan
NAYS: Pastor, Caramagno, Henzi
Henzi: Your variance is granted. Let me go over the conditions one more time. You
have to build it within six months. You are to work with the City regarding the plans.
You are limited to the standard electrical service, which I will tell you we do to every
garage renovation. You can’t have any outbuildings, shed, et cetera. You have to use
building materials to match and then the door is not to exceed 9-ft. in height. Good luck.
Petitioner: Thank you very much. Thank you for everything you guys.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 38 August 28, 2012
Elections were held for the positions of Chair, Vice-Chair and Secretary
POSITION OF CHAIRMAN:
By Caramagno, supported by Pastor, to nominate Henzi for the position of Chairman;
Henzi accepted nomination. All were in favor
POSITION OF VICE CHAIRMAN:
By Caramagno, supported by Henzi, to nominate Pastor for the position of Vice
Chairman. Pastor accepted nomination. All were in favor.
POSITION OF SECRETARY:
By Pastor, supported by Henzi, to nominate Caramagno for the position of Secretary;
Caramagno accepted the nomination. All were in favor.
There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned
at 8:23 p.m.
__________________________
SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary
__________________________
MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman
/hm