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Home My WebLink About02-15-11 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 49 February 15, 2011 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING HELD FEBRUARY 15, 2011 MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman Terry Moran, Vice Chairman Sam Caramagno, Secretary Ken Harb Craig Pastor Robert Sills MEMBERS ABSENT: Toni Aloe OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney Scott Kearfott, City Inspector Helen Mininni, Court Reporter The meeting was called to order at 6:58 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each Petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each Petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Five (5) Members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, Petitioners and City Departments. There were 6 persons present in the audience. ______________________________________________________________________ (7:00 pm #1/16) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-01-01: Harry Kzirian, 26675 Wembley, Farmington Hills, MI 48331, on behalf of lessee Hussein Salame, 6221 Kinloch, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127, seeking to maintain a ground and wall sign resulting in excess number of signs. An industrial district, for a single tenant, is allowed one ground sign or wall sign; both signs are not allowed. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 49 February 15, 2011 The property is located on the west side of Newburgh (13131) between Schoolcraft and the CSX Railroad, Henzi: Mr. Kearfott, do you have anything to add to this case? Kearfott: Not at this time. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Kearfott? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come forward and please give us your name and address. Petitioner: Harry Kzirian. The address is 26675 Wembley Court, Farmington Hills, Michigan 48331 Henzi: Mr. Kzirian, why don’t you tell us why you want to maintain the two signs? Petitioner: On behalf of my tenant, I would like to keep both signs because of visibility. As it is, he’s hurting on business. I mean, in that section I see so many buildings for lease or for sale and I don’t want to lose a tenant, you know sit on empty property. This is helping him a little bit, you know, he likes to have both signs and he is with me now. Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioner? Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: How did we get to this point where two signs are erected and have been for a long period of time with a lot of visits from the Inspection Department? Petitioner: We had the first sign, the one the wall, I had a tenant previously and he put up that sign. And then the new tenant came in and he put up the side sign, the one by the sidewalk. Moran: When was that? Petitioner: I think it was – about eight months ago. Moran: First violation here was June 16, 2009. Petitioner: Probably that’s about right. Moran: About 20 months ago, 2009. Petitioner: Has it been two months? I don’t think so. I mean he’s been in that building a year and a half and we didn’t have that sign at the first tenant. Moran: Do you think the City records are wrong then? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 49 February 15, 2011 Petitioner: I’m pretty sure because he’s been there only a year and a half. Moran: Date of issue June 16, 2009. Mr. Kearfott, am I reading that incorrectly? Work description was illuminated ground sign. Kearfott: That appears to be correct. Moran: “Remarks: remove all non-confronting wall signs for this multi-tenant building.” Petitioner: I received this letter, the violation letter a couple months ago. I wasn’t aware of any violation before that. Moran: Someone was. Petitioner: I didn’t receive anything. Why would they wait a year, two years, I mean, if we were violating – Moran: Sir, there was monthly case visits here. Maybe they didn’t come to you but they came to someone. Someone was aware of these violations. Okay. Let me ask you another question. What’s the name on the building? Petitioner: Exotic Collision. Moran: On the building? Petitioner: Right, both of them are Exotic Collision; am I right? Mr. Salame: Exotic Motor Collision. Petitioner: Right, we didn’t change -- Moran: I thought you just said a moment ago that prior tenants put the sign on the building. Is it the same name? Petitioner: It was Newburg Collision. When he came in, he changed it to Exotic Collision. Moran: So this tenant put the current sign on the building. This business put the current sign on the building. Petitioner: Right. Moran: And this business put the monument sign up as well. Petitioner: Right. Moran: So, it has nothing to do with the prior tenant. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 49 February 15, 2011 Petitioner: They had the ground. The wall sign was there. All they did was switch from Newburg Collision to Exotic Collision and they put the ground sign addition to the wall sign. Moran: I’d like to help you a little bit here, but what is the hardship, non-financial what is your hardship? Why do you need two signs different from what our ordinance allows? Petitioner: Go ahead. Mr. Salame: Good evening. Moran: Yes. Mr. Salame: First of all, when we got into the business for the first like eight, nine month it was really bad. We had no traffic. We had nothing. Hardly anybody came in for an estimate and I had some, you know, I moved in from a different location and, you know, I kept my old phone number. My old customers called and I gave them directions to come to the building. And a few of the customers when they came in they were like, wow, we could not really tell which, you know, which building you were because we didn’t see the sign. And that’s what brought the idea to put the front sign on the ground. And since we did that we almost increase like in 30 percent of the business, you know, in value. And we realized it’s really helping out the business to keep going. Henzi: Can you tell us your name for the record? Mr. Salame: I’m sorry. Hussein Salame. My address is 6221 Kinloch, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127. Moran: I really am faced with two questions here. I asked you what is your hardship and you said you weren’t getting much business. That’s a financial hardship and as Mr. Henzi mentioned when we started, that is not justification for this Board to issue a variance, just because you want more advertising that isn’t your hardship. Mr. Salame: Well, the way I looked at it it’s just keeping us in the business otherwise we just be closed, shut down and go home. Moran: Well, you’ve indicated when you put the monument sign your traffic increased? Mr. Salame: Yes. Moran: Why wouldn’t you just remove the wall sign and comply with the ordinance? Mr. Salame: The way we looked at it if you’re driving down by the road, you’ll see the sign on the ground and you look up it will be a lot easier with the word on the building to know which building we are because a lot of people miss us by an exit and go into the next door to us. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 49 February 15, 2011 Moran: Is the name on the building and the name on the wall sign – on the monument sign the same? Mr. Salame: The same. Yes, they are. Moran: I thought I remember - did you receive these visits from the Inspection Department? Mr. Salame: To be honest with you, I never received anybody. I received a letter about the violation and that’s when I contacted the guy who installed the sign and I told him I received a letter from the City and I came down and did what I have to do. Moran: Mr. Kearfott, can you comment for me – it troubles me to read the chronological -- Kearfott: Order of events. Moran: Order of events and I’m having trouble getting a time line here. Is this accurate, did you folks visit there and not contact the responsible parties, do you believe? Kearfott: I cannot answer that question. I’m seeing the same information you are. I haven’t spoken with the original inspector who went out there at the time. Moran: Based on your experience as a member of the Inspection Department, what is the procedure? When you see a violation, when you issue a violation, do you talk to the people on site? Do you mail a letter each time the violation is continued? What is our -- Kearfott: I usually go in and make contact with the owners of the business or the property. But that doesn’t mean all inspectors do this. Some may just choose to send a violation notice which may have happened in this case. Moran: Can you make an educated guess why this to me appears to have started on June 16th of ’09 and the most recent entry here was November when it appears it was decided to come before this Board? Kearfott: And what is your question now? Moran: Can you make an educated guess as to what transpired and why this went on the way it did? Kearfott: I can not; I can not make a guess at that. Moran: I mean, I don’t know where these things were going, but these notes say, called and left a message for the owner, start court complaints, send new violations, remove sign, July of 2010, August of 2010 sent new violation. Kearfott: I spoke with Jerome today, and Jerome did say it’s been going on for some time and that he’s ready to go to court if this isn’t resolved. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 49 February 15, 2011 Moran: I have no other questions. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Who did the signs, the group monument sign? Mr. Salame: I don’t recall the name off of my head, but the person I dealt with by the name Carlos. Pastor: You were not Newburg Auto Body; right? Mr. Salame: No. Pastor: Did you use Ricart Signs in installing your sign? I mean, you paid for a sign to be installed, did you not? Mr. Salame: The one on the side – yes, we did. Pastor: And you don’t know who you had do it? Mr. Salame: I’m not an expert with signs to be honest with you. I’m just not too good with it. Pastor: Well, you hired a company. Who was the company? Mr. Salame: I’m telling you I just don’t recall the name off of my head. I have the papers at the office. Pastor: That’s all for right now. Henzi: Any other questions? Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: This is to Mr. Fisher. Mike, can you tell me what’s allowed for the total square footage for an industrial location that’s 60 feet across? Petitioner: Excuse me. It’s commercial. I don’t know if that makes a difference or not. Harb: Is Petitioner allowed 60 square feet? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 49 February 15, 2011 Fisher: I think the answer is no, but I need to verify it. You can either have a free- standing identification sign not to exceed 30 square feet, or in lieu of a free-standing sign, you can have a wall sign equal to one square foot for each two lineal feet of building frontage up to 100 square feet. You chose one or the other and you can – it’s not relevant here, but you can if you have more than 400 feet of frontage along a major or secondary thorough fare, you can have a second ground sign. Harb: Okay. This is to the Petitioner. If you have one entrance way for the two buildings; is that correct – to the building? Petitioner: It’s only one building. Harb: I’m sorry. Petitioner: One entrance, one building. Harb: Well, I’m looking at an overhead. There are two buildings on the property? Petitioner: There are two buildings, but the other one, it’s individual – it’s a separate building that has its own sign. Harb: Right, right, but there’s still one entrance way? Petitioner: Right. Harb: You are suggesting that your customers were having a hard time identifying which building was Exotic and which building was to the Petitioner to the north. Petitioner: There is a tire shop next to it, too. The way the ground sign is situated, it’s between the collision shop and the tire shop. That is kind of confusing because it’s almost put – they built it right on the border about 10 feet away from the border. Harb: I know when I was driving by I had a hard time trying to identify which building was what just going by the address. There was just no way of knowing just by the address. You had to see the sign on the wall. Now, it seems to me that the sign on the wall was 30 square feet, the sign on the ground sign is 30 square feet as well. Which sign do you feel is more important to you? Petitioner: The ground sign. Harb: The ground sign. This has happened on other occasions where it seems to me that for customer identification purposes, you know, an extra sign is needed and I think I’m leaning towards that. Thank you. Henzi: Why isn’t Carlos here tonight? Mr. Salame: I wasn’t aware he was supposed to be here. The letter says just for the landlord and the tenant to be here. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 49 February 15, 2011 Henzi: Well, you pinned the blame on him earlier by saying that he received the letters and that he was the one that pulled the permit. Mr. Salame: I didn’t say he received the letter. I said I received the letter then I called him. Henzi: He did receive one. I’m telling – that’s a fact. Mr. Salame: I’m not aware. But it even took me a hard time because when I hired him to do the job, he charged me $350.00 for the permit to be honest with you and he came over one weekend and started working like three months later after I hired him. And I was under the impression he got the permit and then his phone was not working and it took me about like four months to get a hold of him and then when I received the letter, I left a ton of messages on his phone and the wife saying, if I’m getting sued, you’re getting sued. You’re the one who put up the sign and I’m having problems with the City I was not aware of and I have to take care of things. And that’s the last time when he came in and he brought me back the old application saying, uh, he had a problem with his partner and he just gave me a long sad story and that was the last I heard from him. Henzi: Well, one of two scenarios is true. Either – and I’m not being critical if you are mad at him. Either Carlos failed to tell you that you needed to get Zoning Board Approval to construct that sign and this is his fault, or your contract was for him to build the sign and maybe he told you, you needed to remove the wall sign or maybe just the Building Department told you, you needed to remove the wall sign and Carlos’ version is going to be that that’s your problem. Now, it’s almost been two years since you’ve gotten to this point of getting in front of this Board. So, it seems to me unlikely that this is Carlos’ fault. If you had come to this Board a couple of months after getting one or two notices and said, this is our sign maker’s fault, but hey, we’d like two signs. I’d be a lot more apt to believe you, but when you come to us 20 months later and say that it’s the sign guys fault when the Building Department has been out there, I don’t how many times telling you you’ve got to remove one sign. I find that hard to believe. So, why don’t you convince me about why it took you so long to get to this point where you say, here’s why we need two signs. Mr. Salame: But the only way I’m going to convince you is, first of all I’m not lying to you and that’s exactly what happened. The first notice I received in the mail from the City, I responded to and when I found out what was going on and you can even bring Carlos or if he could just like make sure he could come down here, if you could get a hold of him, I’m not lying to you and that’s exactly what happened. I have no problem taking care of business the right way and I did. I hired him to do the job the right way. Obviously, he failed and you don’t believe me – that’s fine. I understand your position, but I’m not here to come and lie to you. I’m just telling you exactly what went on. I’m 42 years old I never lied to nobody in my life. Henzi: Can you tell me again why you need the sign on the building? Mr. Salame: I rather explain to you. It’s improving my business and it’s keeping me in business otherwise I feel like if this goes away there’s a possibility of me losing this City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 49 February 15, 2011 business and just shut it down and go home and I got kids to feed. And excuse me for the record, the first time I missed the meeting I just had a newborn baby who needed open-heart surgery and I went down to the City and explained to them what happened. And I offered to bring them proof and they said you don’t have to. Henzi: I’m not being critical of that. Mr. Salame: Well, I’m just letting you know. Henzi: Any other questions. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I went by this evening and there’s six or eight five-gallon barrels outside the back of your building, a couple of 30, or 40, or 50 gallon barrels, a couple of car parts sitting back there. What do you do with all of that stuff? Mr. Salame: At my building? Pastor: Yes. Mr. Salame: Tonight? Pastor: Yes. Mr. Salame: I know there is one pick up a F150. Pastor: Yes. Salame: It’s been sitting there for almost a year. We can’t even – Pastor: There’s a car next to that. Salame: We can’t get ahold of the owner anymore. I think he had a bad engine and he brought it in. He got towed in and we told him we don’t do mechanic and he was supposed to come and pick it up and we haven’t heard from him. I called the City and they said I could get it impounded, but I figured when the guy came in he was crying about it and I don’t want to get his truck taken away. And there’s a Taurus that’s being totaled. We are taking parts out of it, but I have no idea about the empty barrels out side because usually we try to keep it pretty clean in the back and even in the front. Pastor: There are probably six – five gallon barrels that look like paint thinner, something you use through your paint and two 50 gallon barrels back there, many miscellaneous parts in a pile. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 49 February 15, 2011 Salame: I could show you invoices. The only way I get thinner in my shop is the hundred gallon barrel and it’s within the disposal system inside the shop and whenever we order one the company comes and takes the old one and gives us the new one. Pastor: So, you’re saying I should have taken a picture of it to prove it to you? Salame: No, no, I believe you. I believe you. I have not looked in the back, I have not see it, but I promise you on my way out of here I’m going to go take a look at it because you have to remember there’s neighbors next to me. They use those small gallons. I don’t. Pastor: What are you going to do with that stuff in the back? Salame: With what? Pastor: You have parts; you have a pile of parts back there. Salame: We get peoples’ scrap. People they come and take them once a week and we don’t charge them to do that, but they ask us not to throw everything away. And I keep the shop on the inside clean so I try to keep them in the back of the building for them once a week. They come in with their pick up and haul them out of there. We don’t usually keep them but, this is the stuff obviously comes in like based on the job we do. I take it in the back of the building on the side and I leave it for them and they come and scrap it out of there. Pastor: Well my point is, it looks trashy and I don’t believe that we would prefer to have that and you need to store it some place. Salame: No problem. Pastor: Thank you. Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: Sir, can you tell me if other buildings along Newburg Road that may have two signs? Salame: I can’t tell you. Harb: Thank you. Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 49 February 15, 2011 Caramagno: I’ve got a couple questions about your existing sign. The current one with the yellow car is that sign lit up at night? Salame: Yes. Caramagno: It’s internally illuminated? Salame: Yes. Caramagno: Do you feel it’s a real effective sign, more than half of it is a picture of a car with the doors open. Salame: That’s the idea. So people know what we do. Caramagno: So, you feel that explains who you are better than the Exotic Motor Collision? Salame: Yes. Caramagno: Okay. Is there an address in the front of that building; I don’t recall seeing a pronounced address on the front of that building? Salame: Yes, there is, on the front door? Caramagno: On the front door. How big is it about? Salame: About -- Petitioner: It’s glued on just the stickers. Caramagno: So, it’s four inches by a foot? Petitioner: Probably about – yeah. Caramagno: -- by a foot? Petitioner: Yeah. Caramagno: Do you feel a more pronounced address on the building would help you be recognized? Let’s take an example. When you have pizza delivered to your home, they look for an address. Most people look for addresses, reference buildings by that. You’re looking to advertise here with two separate signs. An appropriate address may help people find your business as well; wouldn’t they? Salame: It’s possible. It should. Caramagno: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 49 February 15, 2011 Henzi: The existing sign is that your business card that you gave to Carlos and then he blew it up and used it as the facing for the sign? Salame: Yes. Henzi: Is the nature of your collision shop different than typical ones? I’ll give you an example – we’ll compare them. Collex – there’s no picture of a car just Collex Collision. You’ve got a picture of either – I don’t know a Lamborghini – something. Salame: Lamborghini doors, yes. Henzi: Okay. Is that more important to you because you only do that type of work, or will you do anything? Salame: We do collision for insurance companies and we major in exotic stuff also like customized Lamborghini doors, just body kits, all kinds of stuff you would like to do to your vehicle most of the works we do, yes. Henzi: Okay. So, is your customer not the average person who needs a collision shop, or would you take that work, too? Salame: Forty to 30 percent of my customers will be like customized special customers and 70 percent of my customers just like insurance jobs or just people who had collision. Henzi: Any other questions? Moran: Just one, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Mr. Fisher or Kearfott, what is this property zoned? Fisher: M-2, manufacturing. Moran: Light manufacturing, medium manufacturing? Fisher: Heavy manufacturing. Moran: Pardon me? Fisher: Heavy manufacturing. Moran: Heavy manufacturing. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Fisher: Mr. Chair. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 49 February 15, 2011 Henzi: Mr. Fisher. Fisher: If you had to choose between the wall sign and the ground sign, which one would you choose? Salame: I prefer the ground sign. Fisher: Okay. Henzi: Any other questions? Kearfott: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Kearfott. Kearfott: Just to comment on something earlier you asked me about as far as the first time he was notified about a problem. It appears that they did issue a permit for the ground sign in June of ’09. So, somebody came in to get a permit for the ground sign, but then it also has a remark saying, remove all non-conforming walls sign. Moran: Right, that’s what I was referencing. Kearfott: So, that wasn’t a violation notice since June. Moran: Okay. So, the violation -- Kearfott: So, it appears the first time somebody went out was Jerome in January 20th of 2010. Moran: Okay. So, it’s been a year? Kearfott: Yes. Moran: And it little bit less from when we first started this process of coming before this Board. Thank you. Henzi: Scott, I had one question along those lines. A permit holder seems to be Ricart Signs. Kearfott: That’s what I -- Henzi: The Petitioner says he may pay for it, but Ricart Signs would have been the permit holder; right? Kearfott: I believe so. Henzi: And then there’s mention where, you know, sent violation to permit holder and owner. Is the owner Mr. Kzirian or Mr. Salame? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 49 February 15, 2011 Kearfott: Well, the owner of the building, I believe, is Mr. Kzirian. Henzi: Okay, so the owner of the building, not the owner of the business? Kearfott: The business is separate true? Petitioner: Yes. By the way, I didn’t even get a single notice or violation or nothing until today. Henzi: What did you get today? Salame: Well, I’m here for this today. Petitioner: Well, it was mailed out on March 31st of 2011. Henzi: Well, I mean, you were scheduled to be here a couple of months ago. Salame: Yes, I told you earlier that I missed my first hearing and I came in and explained what happened. Henzi: Yeah, but Mr. Kzirian, you should have received notice, I mean, a couple months ago, right? Petitioner: I did receive the notice, yes. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: The first one – Salame: That’s the first one. He needs to know that. Henzi: Okay. The first notice you got had to do with being here at ZBA; is that your point? Salame: Right. Petitioner: Today. Henzi: You claim you weren’t getting notices -- Salame: No, not at all. Henzi: -- a year ago from the Building Department. Salame: And that’s the first one I received to my house, too – to the house and to the business, yes. Henzi: From the ZBA office? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 49 February 15, 2011 Salame: Yes. Henzi: Okay. Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project, if so come on up. I see no one coming forward. Are there any letters to read? Caramagno: Yes, dated February l, 2011, approval John Arthurs [13111 Newburg] (letter read) and we have an approval [37497 Schoolcraft] from Glenn Pangrazzi. Henzi: Gentlemen, is there anything you’d like to say in closing? Petitioner: I just don’t want to see a building sitting. I mean, if I lose a tenant, I’m going to lose a building, too, and we don’t need more empty buildings on Newburg or Schoolcraft. Salame: I want to be able to pay him rent. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Mr. Fisher, you said that it was manufacturing, two, M-2? Fisher: Yes. Pastor: What is the sign available for that, or what could he have for that? Fisher: Well, it was like what we were saying before -- Pastor: It’s the same what you said before then? Fisher: Yes. Pastor: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Okay, gentlemen, anything else? Salame: Thank you for your time. Henzi: Thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I’m on the fence with this one. I understand the client’s need for actually the ground sign. I think the ground sign is fairly effective. The building sign I’m not too sure of. So, I’m going to listen to the other commissioners. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I feel that this is not an unreasonable request. I think there is a uniqueness here because there are two buildings sharing a common entrance way. I remember back in ’03 when we split the building. That’s how long I’ve been on this Board. I feel kind of City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 49 February 15, 2011 old now. But I think that denial of this, you know, having the Petitioner have one or the other I feel does allow clients not to have the ability to identify which building that they’re talking about. So, I think that since this is really two 60 square foot, or two 30 square foot signs totaling 60 square feet, 60 square feet, I feel – if it was commercial or, you know, they would be allowed that and often times we’d allow the situation like this. So, I’m going to be in favor of this. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Well, the Petitioner has indicated that the monument sign has been his most effective and his preference, and I would agree with that. As a matter of fact, all the other businesses along there have only a monument sign. I don’t see the uniqueness here. Every time I ask the Petitioner for information it was always about keeping my business, keeping my business hardship and I’m sensitive to that, but as we’ve said, as our application says, and as Matt’s opening comments said, that isn’t justification for a variance. I drove along there and the wall sign is not very useful to me at all. I can understand why your business might increase when you put it out front like all the others. The monument sign is very attractive. If I come in that common driveway, the only building I’m going to walk into is the one that has the sign in front of it. It is quite obvious to me which one is Exotic Motors – or Collision and which one is not. I did notice the address sign there – it was quite prominent and if you needed to have some sort of directional sign there to say the name of it as well, I’m pretty sure the Inspection Department would be all right with that. If it needed our approval, I could grant that. The application says that the prior collision shop went out of business due to a lack of walk-in customers. I’m going to suggest to you two things. One, collision shops don’t have a lot of walk-in customers by definition; and secondly, to be perfectly blunt about it, the name of your company is not terribly descriptive. So, if you’re having difficulty with business, I would look to some of those things because I didn’t know for sure what Exotic Collision did. I was like Matt. I wouldn’t take my F-150 that you have parked out in the back, or the Taurus because I think you only work on these exotic things. So, you may have some business problems there, but I can’t find a uniqueness here that warrants this and also warrants the other four or five businesses along there coming in here because I think that would be the very next step and there’s no uniqueness there. So, for those reasons I cannot support this. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, I think any signs need to be effective for what they’re used for. Your sign with the picture of the car on it while its nice and nice looking, I don’t think it’s as effective as it could be if you had a pronounced name up there that said Exotic Collision less picture on that sign, I think you’d have a better product and you’d attract more customers myself. I also feel that the sign on the building was of little use to me for finding your place. I found it very easy with, you know, the sign you have there. Of course, I knew where I was heading. I’m a fan of addresses. I think a nice address on that building would also help you. So, I’m not in support of keeping the sign on the building. I’d like to see it removed. Henzi: Mr. Sills City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 49 February 15, 2011 Sills: I think I can agree with the comments made by Mr. Caramagno. I can understand the monument sign. Newburg is a very busy road and at times everybody is exceeding speed limits and if you’re whizzing by all these buildings real quick and if your eye isn’t fast enough to catch something, you’re going to miss it. So, I can understand the monument sign, but as far as the sign on the building, I don’t see where it serves any purpose whatsoever and I don’t think that I would be confused by which building your monument sign was going to be directed to. So, based on those comments and the comments that Mr. Caramagno made, I could approve the monument sign, but not the sign on the building. Henzi: I agree with Mr. Harb that I don’t think that the request is too unreasonable. I mean, we get requests like this all the time. The problem is though that the original permit was and if it was granted under the condition that ground sign goes up but wall sign comes down and then it never does. The Petitioner has explained to me why its taken so long; however, the problem is, if we received this application today I don’t think that the ground sign as it’s proposed would have gotten approved and that’s why our City likes to have requests like this come in before the signs go up so we avoid something like this because already I’ve heard the Petitioner say things like or acknowledged that the address would have been nice on the ground sign and if this had worked out the right way, you know, we might have been walking away with a sign package that everybody liked, but I have to agree with Mr. Caramagno I think that for me I knew where I was going but I’ve also noticed the sign before. I mean, I knew that it was a new business from even before when this case came up and we’re always happy to see a new business. I don’t think that customers are going to have any problem finding the business with the ground sign. I just think the wall sign is unnecessary and if I were asked to approve the two, I think my position would be the same. That is, if I were being asked let me go from zero to two signs instead of maintaining two signs, I think my rationale would be the same. So, the floor is open for a motion. Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Upon Motion by Moran, supported by Caramagno, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-01-01: Harry Kzirian, 26675 Wembley, Farmington Hills, MI 48331, on behalf of Lessee Hussein Salame, 6221 Kinloch, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127, seeking to maintain a ground and wall sign resulting in excess number of signs. An industrial district, for a single tenant, is allowed one ground sign or wall sign both signs are not allowed. The property is located on the west side of Newburg (13131) between Schoolcraft and the CSX Railroad, be denied because Petitioner has not demonstrated to the Board that a practical difficulty exists. Furthermore, Petitioner be allowed to select a complying sign, either the existing wall sign or the existing monument sign or any other sign that would be in compliance with the Ordinance. Petitioner has 90 days to comply with the Board’s ruling. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 49 February 15, 2011 Henzi: I would just like to suggest – would you like to give him some time? You know, whatever you think is appropriate. If he’s going to take one down, I don’t think he should have to do it tomorrow. Moran: No, I would agree. I thought that was more up to the Inspection Department to enforce. Henzi: That’s fine. Moran: We can put a time table on it. I want -- Henzi: Well, we could just say reasonable. Moran: I don’t want those people to be out in the cold. Henzi: Yeah. Moran: But a reasonable time. How much time do you need? Salame: Thirty days will be enough. Moran: Thirty days. I mean I don’t want you in the cold or incurring extra costs. It’s been there for this long. Henzi: Three months maybe. Moran: Ninety days. Salame: Thank you. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: Any other discussion? Hearing none, please call the rolls ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Moran, Caramagno, Pastor, Sills, Henzi NAYS: Harb Henzi: Motion was denied. You can chose which sign that you want to keep. Then you have 90 days to take which ever one down. Salame: Thank you. Petitioner: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 49 February 15, 2011 (7:38 #1/1250) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-02-05: Kenneth and Wendy Trepanier, 11300 Melrose, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to erect a 6-ft. tall privacy fence along the east property line without the approval of the adjoining property owners, which is not allowed. The property is located on the east side of Melrose (11300) between Elmira and Plymouth. Henzi: Mr. Kearfott, do you have anything to add to this case? Kearfott: Just that they did get permission to put a fence along the north side from the one neighbor onto the north and they were allowed to replace the fence along Elmira Street. And the only concern I would have is the camper trailer that’s being stored in the rear driveway. Petitioner: My name is Ken Trepanier, 11300 Melrose. I would respond that it was stored behind the privacy fence that was there next to the garage. We pulled it out when the guy was going to install the fence with the intention of putting it back behind – it was behind a privacy fence next to the garage. Kearfott: Is that camper your camper? Petitioner: It’s my son’s. Kearfott: Okay. Well, you know that you’re not supposed to store – Petitioner: Right, yeah. Kearfott: Somebody, you know, that belongs to one address and stored at another address. Petitioner: Well, it’s my son’s trailer. He lives kitty corner from there. Kearfott: At 11307? Petitioner: I’m not sure. Mrs. Trepanier: I think that’s the address. Petitioner: The two garages, you know, my garage and the neighbor’s garage are there and there was a privacy fence. There was one there before, but it was pretty tacky. You know, I’ve spent a lot of time rebuilding this house and we were redoing a lot of stuff so we had taken down the pretty cheap vinyl fence that was there and we City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 49 February 15, 2011 replaced the gate there because that was, you know, that’s not our property line any more. And the trailer was stored behind that before next to the garage. Kearott: Would there be a problem of storing the trailer at your son’s house? Petitioner: He really doesn’t have the room over there. It’s, you know, small old Rosedale most of the lots are pretty small and stuff. Kearfott: Right. Petitioner: My house happens to sit on – it was two lots there when it was built so there was a little more room. He really – his garage, there’s no room next to his garage and his is a single lot and there is really not room there. But it was behind, when it was behind the fence before. I don’t like it in the driveway either. I mean, I wouldn’t leave it there. If he had to store it somewhere else, that would be fine, but it was behind that privacy fence next to the garage which is actually like between the garage of my house and the neighbor’s house. But I mean, if he can’t store it there, that’s fine, too. But it’s only sitting in the driveway because I pulled it out so the guy could go install the fence and then we ran into some problems with the installer and other things and now it snowed so. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Kearfott? Hearing none, good evening. Petitioner: Good evening. Henzi: Tell us why you want to erect the fence as proposed? Petitioner: Well, there was a privacy fence on three sides of the property before which we kind of replaced and then the neighbor to the east has a wooden privacy fence also on three sides and in between the two lots there’s an old -- Mrs. Trepanier: Chain-link. Petitioner: Chain-link fence that was probably there since the thing was built in – my house was built originally in the twenties. In old Rosedale in there they are all from that era and so there’s a chain-link fence that was there. It is in pretty bad shape so we were looking for replacing that. The neighbor has a pretty big dog. I got a pretty big dog and we want to make sure they don’t get at one another. I would say that the neighbor that we are talking to here, too, he doesn’t really have an objection to a privacy fence there. In fact, I just said he has a privacy fence on three sides of his house and I do as well now. He just objected to the particular fence that I want. They have a wooden fence. The one I have which I have pictures of stuff. It’s a pretty high scale vinyl fence that’s there. We just wanted to have the same thing that we had before and like I said, there was really no objection to, you know, come to the Zoning Board. I mean, it meets with all the zoning requirements. It’s, you know, it’s the proper size and it’s a privacy fence which was approved and all that stuff. There’s really just the question of they didn’t care for the style that we chose and I don’t care for their wooden fence and the wooden frankly the one that he’s got up, that he put up on three sides which they say they’d City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 49 February 15, 2011 rather have a wooden fence now, but they didn’t put one up on our adjoining property line a year and a half, a couple years ago when they did. I believe the gentleman probably installed it himself. I don’t think it looks very good. It’s, you know, those wooden fences they need a lot of maintenance. This one is just – doesn’t look like it’s been stained or anything maintained, but so the vinyl one requires no maintenance and its pretty high scale. I mean, it was a pretty pricey vinyl one. The one I tore down there was an old white one there which didn’t look very good. I don’t think it looked very good for the neighborhood. This one is, with the pictures there you can see we paid extra for kind of a spindle scallop, spindle top -- Mrs. Trepanier: Darker color. Petitioner: And it’s khaki color which matches the siding on my house so you know, it looks a lot better than the old white one there. It’s just a better fence all around and it doesn’t require any maintenance. I have some back problems and I didn’t want to add to my having to maintain a wood fence between the properties there. And again, it’s really not a question of – I think we both agree that – he doesn’t disagree with a privacy fence. He doesn’t just – there was no disagreement as to property line or anything like that. We both agree that the old chain-link fence there should probably come out. It was just a question of what kind of fence. I would also add that, you know, a lot of times with adjoining properties, you know, the neighbors would share on the cost of this. This was a more high-scale fence, it was pretty expensive. I didn’t ask anybody to share the cost. I was just going to cover all the costs myself. Henzi: Okay. I’ve got a couple questions for you. Did you say that your neighbor erected his shadow box, or his wooden fence a year and a half ago? Petitioner: I would guess about a year and a half. It may have been longer. I’m not sure exactly when. Henzi: Did he ask for your approval to remove the chain-link fence and erect – Petitioner: He didn’t put – Henzi: - the fourth wall so to speak of his backyard with the wooden fence? Mrs. Trepanier: No, no. Petitioner: No, I haven’t – one of the reasons we some – we haven’t lived in the house yet because I have been remodeling it, extensive renovations on it and stuff and this was kind of the last step. So, I really don’t know – I don’t know the neighbors there. I haven’t lived in the house yet so when he was doing it, I would have assumed I would have gotten a letter, you know, same thing that I had to send out, but I never got anything like that. Henzi: Did you approach him personally and ask for approval? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 49 February 15, 2011 Petitioner: No, I didn’t because when – like I said, we haven’t lived there yet so we really don’t know anybody there. When my wife contracted with the fence guy and we talked to him, you know, I’ve done some building, and while I did a lot of remodeling on this house, I know about pulling permits and stuff. The fence guy said that he would take care of all that. The guy we hired he said he would pull -- Mrs. Trepanier: He would approach the neighbors. Petitioner: -- he pulled a permit which means you got to approach the neighbor with the stuff. He said he would take care of that. I really didn’t know them so I just figured it would be all right. After he started installing which we found out later he started actually without pulling the permit like he was supposed to and I made him stop and go pull a permit. But when he started with that then he caused some trouble with them because he started doing stuff without letting them know so which we apologized for and after that we talked to him – my wife talked to him on the phone and we sent him a letter explaining what the situation was. Henzi: So, there’s no bad blood you just deem it you want four sections of vinyl fence but your neighbor wants four sections of wooden fence? Mrs. Trepanier: Essentially, yes. Petitioner: Essentially, yes. Henzi: And we’re disputing just that one shared section. Petitioner: Just the one shared section. Henzi: Okay, any questions? Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: To Mr. Fisher, what does the ordinance contemplate here? The Petitioner has indicated that his fence meets all the conditions of the ordinance. Obviously, there is one it doesn’t meet and that’s obtaining the neighbor’s approval. Hypothetically, if two people can’t agree, does it just remain the way it is? What are the options if we’re going to hear from the other neighbor perhaps – I think the case is pretty well laid out here by the package and the correspondence. Fisher: So, what’s your question? Moran: What are the options? Does it just remain the way it is until two parties can come to some agreement or until this Board dictates what would be allowed? Fisher: Well, of course, the theory is that people will go and pull permits early in the process, early enough so that they, you know, haven’t spent money, haven’t torn out the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 49 February 15, 2011 fence, haven’t done anything like that before they find out that they need to get the neighbor’s consent and then the two of them hopefully sit down together and map out where the fence is going to be just like I did with my neighbor. I’m not sure why that doesn’t happen all the time. I mean, some neighbors the reason they’re putting up a fence is because they hate each other and in those situations one of two things happens either they – somebody acquiesces or they end up in a place like this having a hearing like we’re having tonight. Moran: So to follow your line of reasoning, one of a couple of things could have happened. One series of events could have been that the Petitioner, the responsible party, whether he contracted with someone else or not, would have come to the City and pulled a permit and would not have been able to get the neighbor’s permission. Accordingly, they could have still gone ahead – they could have done nothing, come to some other agreement or they could have gone ahead and got the property into the shape that it’s in right now. Meaning putting it on the Elmira side, the south side, and I presume you have the permission from the neighbor on the north side. Mrs. Trepanier: Yes. Petitioner: Yes. Moran: You could have gotten to this same point -- Mrs. Trepanier: We have a permit for those three sides already, yes. Moran: But they would have had a choice had they realized they weren’t going to get that back, that east line permit, they might have had a choice to do nothing or they could have gotten to the same spot they are now. Fisher: Right, I guess those are equally possible. Moran: Thank you. Henzi: I have a question for Mike. Couldn’t the neighbor have filed his own request for a variance saying I can’t get the Trepanier’s to agree to a shadow box wood fence, and I want you to grant me a variance to put that up without their permission. Fisher: And in fact I assume had they been the first one’s to go for a permit that’s what would have happened. Henzi: Has that ever happened? Does that happen or traditionally does the offended neighbor just say no, I show up at the variance or write a letter and say no, I don’t want what they are proposing. I want something else? Fisher: Well, when they say they don’t want something else that’s when it ends up here typically. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 49 February 15, 2011 Henzi: Right. Okay. You can’t think of an instance where somebody like a cross variance or a request for a variance? Fisher: No, no, it’s not impossible; I guess it can happen but I don’t remember that ever happening. Henzi: Any other questions? Caramagno: Yes, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Scott, what would they be allowed in the backyard with no approval? How tall? Kearfott: A five foot fence; is that right, Mike? Fisher: I think that’s right. A chain-link fence – anyway a chain-link fence is what they would be allowed. Caramagno: A chain-link up to five feet tall. Okay. That’s all I got for right now. Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: Are we going to be hearing from the neighbor on Arden Street 11301? Henzi: That’s a good question. Mr. and Mrs. Trepanier, is your neighbor here? Mrs. Trepanier: I have no idea. Harb: So, all we have is the letter? Henzi: Is there a Mike or Rene Deming here? I guess not. Caramagno: Mr. Chair, I’ve got another question. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: You share that backyard with two separate property owners – that back fence line? Petitioner: Yeah, there’s one -- Mrs. Trepanier: There’s one little spot – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 49 February 15, 2011 Petitioner: -- probably about one section of a fence because again my property was originally like two lots. Caramagno: There’s an overlap there. Petitioner: Yes. Mrs. Trepanier: Yes, a small one. Petitioner: About one length of fence goes into the next guy. Caramagno: Do you have approval from either one? Obviously, you don’t have approval from one. Do you have approval from the other? Mrs. Trepanier: No, because when our fence contractor went to the people who have the bigger part of the fence behind us, then they were opposed to this style of fence and I guess they talked to the other neighbor who has that small section and so they sort of – that neighbor – my understanding was that neighbor said he was going to go along with whatever. Caramagno: Okay. So, they don’t like the fence you’re proposing. Mrs. Trepanier: Apparently, that’s what I was told. Caramagno: How much of the neighbor that’s directly behind you furthest south, how much of his yard is blocked by your garage? Petitioner: Well, it’s actually blocked by – his garage, too – probably about half the distance there. Caramagno: So, almost half of what his frontage is backing up to you is blocked by a garage already? Petitioner: Yeah, by his garage, right. Mrs. Trepanier: And we did – I did send them a letter offering, you know, because half of their – most of their yard – their garage covers about half of it. We had offered since we were paying for this fence if they really didn’t like how it looks, even though, you know, I think it looks nice that I was willing to plant arborvitaes on their side to at least cover it up if they were, you know, if that would make a difference, but they just don’t want a vinyl fence. Caramagno: These arborvitaes are they yours? Mrs. Trepanier: The ones that are in that picture are on our side of the fence, yeah. Caramagno: Would they stay or go? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 49 February 15, 2011 Mrs. Trepanier: I haven’t decided yet I don’t really care. Caramagno: And what I’m looking at leaning on your garage is that all the rest of the fence? Mrs. Trepanier: Yes, I believe so. Caramagno: That’s all I have. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the podium. Seeing no one is coming forth, can you read the letters? Caramagno: We have an approval from Elsa Johnston [11033 Arden] (letter was read). Approval from Christopher Kurish [11300 Auburndale](letter read) and we have an objection Mike and Rene Deming [11301 Arden Street] (letter read). Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Trepanier, do you have any thing in response to this letter and/or would you like to make a closing statement? Petitioner: Well, a couple things, you know, like I say, if they were so keen on this wooden shadow box fence that they have they could have done that when they did theirs a couple years ago and I probably wouldn’t have had a problem with it at that time. We had some problems with the contractor. He didn’t do the right thing. We apologized profusely for that because he did come in and start doing stuff without pulling a permit. When I found that out, I made him stop doing everything and made him go pull a permit. You know, I have the same comments as far as the fence, you know I mean, it’s a question of – they’ve got three sides wood, I’ve got three sides vinyl. So, we’ve got this one in between, you know, it’s going to be one or the other. And again, half that fence is covered. You can’t see it from either my house or their house because it’s between the two garages which are right there on the property line. So, even half the yard you can’t even see it anyway. And again, I just don’t want the added – I’ve had wooden fences before. I think they look kind of bad. They deteriorate over time. This one is probably a couple years old that he’s got there. I think it doesn’t look too good already. I believe it’s warped and it’s kind of discolored and stuff and I don’t want to have to maintain a wooden fence. I’m getting a little long in the tooth and I have some back problems and I just didn’t want to do that. And I’ve look through the neighborhood, you know, there’s a lot of vinyl fences in the neighborhood. There’s one a couple blocks down from us that has this exact same fence that I chose. That was one of the reasons I did because it looked so nice down there. They did a real nice job and this one I think it goes with the neighborhood old Rosedale. It’s more of a colonial- looking fence. Like I say, it’s got a scallop top with spindles in it and stuff. I think it looks a lot better than the other one does, too. Mrs. Trepanier: Well, and I would just say, too, that the chain-link fence was put back up. So, the chain-link fence that they put in their letter they’ve sort of indicated that the chain-link fence was destroyed. It wasn’t. As soon as he started taking that down and City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 49 February 15, 2011 we had a problem, we made him re-install the chain-link fence. So, the chain-link fence is back up there. Petitioner: I would say – you know, this guy, this contractor that we found, I mean, he’s registered with the City, so in talking to him he knew what he was supposed to do. We had some problems with the guy. We gave him a deposit in like September he was supposed to start. The guy disappeared for two months. We thought the money was just gone. We had to chase him down and so he didn’t do a lot of things right. And when I found out that he was starting to do these things without pulling a permit, you know, I made him stop. I made him go get a permit and he had to stop work because I’m, you know, I’m not for that. They mentioned that, you know, we did talk to him and then we sent them a letter. They sent one back. We’ve had some trouble with the post office delivering mail there, so yeah, I did get his – we did get his letter that they hand delivered I guess, but I had already – I hadn’t heard back from them so I had already filed this appeal before I even got their letter. Henzi: I did think of one question. Have you ever given thought of extending that line of arborvitaes? I mean, did you ever think that, you know what, forget this? I’m just going to put up six foot arborvitaes and not even have to look back into their yard? Petitioner: Well, it’s not so much a question of that, it was like I say we have a large dog. She’s been known to jump the chain-link fence. They have a large dog. We don’t want to have any trouble with, you know – Mrs. Trepanier: And they have small children. Petitioner: And again, you know, they don’t disagree with a privacy fence. In fact, they said, you know, they would consider doing that one themselves. So, it’s not really a question of even a privacy fence. They’re not objecting to that. It’s again just he likes the wooden one and I like this one. Henzi: Okay. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Scott, this address that’s 11301, did they get a permit for their fence because I don’t remember a case -- Kearfott: Which house are you talking about? Pastor: The neighbor. Kearfott: The ones behind them? Pastor: Yes. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 49 February 15, 2011 Kearfott: Yes, they did get a permit. Pastor: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: When did they get their permit? Kearfott: I didn’t copy the date down. Henzi: Does it sound like it was about a year and a half ago? Does that sound reasonable? Petitioner: That’s what he said in his letter. I would guess it was about a year and a half, two years, something like that. Kearfott: If you give me five minutes I can tell you exactly. Henzi: It’s okay. Don’t bother. Pastor: I’m just wondering if he worked off an old permit. Kearfott: Yes, I did look it up and they did get a permit. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: I know he did the work himself, but I assume he probably pulled a permit. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: The letter from the Deming’s said that they did talk to you expressing their concerns offering options to compromise. Can you tell what compromises they offered? Mrs. Trepanier: They didn’t offer a compromise. They just said that they did not – they were opposed to a vinyl fence and that they wanted a wooded fence because they have it on three sides of their yard. Harb: Were they willing to pay for the wooden fence? Petitioner: They didn’t say. Mrs. Trepanier: They didn’t say. Harb: So, there were no other options of compromise quote unquote. Mrs. Trepanier: Not that I’m – no, not – I had one conversation with Mr. Deming and he basically just said that they don’t like the vinyl fence. They didn’t think that it goes in the neighborhood although like my husband said, there’s a house a couple blocks away that has the same exact fence which is where we saw it which caused me to say that’s the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 49 February 15, 2011 fence I want even though it was more expensive. But, no, they didn’t offer to pay for a wooden fence. Harb: Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Tell me please, chronologically your discussions with this affected neighbor. Mrs. Trepanier: When we found out that our contractor had started without a permit, we told him to stop that he had to get the permit. Moran: Excuse me. I believe earlier this evening – just to make sure I’m clear – your husband represented to us that you didn’t approach the neighbor you delegated that responsibility to your fence man. Mrs. Trepanier: I didn’t delegate. I asked him if I needed to contact the neighbors for anything and he said, no, he would take care of it. Petitioner: Yeah. Moran: Did you say, sir, that it was your thought process you didn’t know the people, therefore, you thought may as well let this contractor talk to them. Petitioner: Well, it was in his contract. He said he would take care of that and because I don’t know the people. Moran: So, you did delegate it or contract it whatever. Petitioner: Right. Mrs. Trepanier: And because we didn’t know them, and he said he would take care of it. Petitioner: I knew – I knew the that -- Moran: So, then he showed up, started doing the work, I understand you’ve done the responsible thing stopped – you don’t have a permit. Go get a permit. Mrs. Trepanier: Right, and then -- Moran: Now, again, you’re asking him to follow through on his promise to contact the neighbors and obtain their permission. Petitioner: No, well no, we had already talked to him after that. Mrs. Trepanier: Well, but he – then he said that the neighbors wouldn’t sign the permission slip that they have to sign for the permit. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 49 February 15, 2011 Moran: What did you do at that point? Mrs. Trepanier: Then, hum -- Petitioner: She talked to him on the phone a couple times. He said he was going to come take a look at the part of the fence -- Moran: The neighbor. Petitioner: The neighbor – yeah. He was going to come take a look at the part of the fence that we had already installed so he could see it up which we, you know, on the non-adjoining property lines we were replacing an existing fence as well and we -- Moran: Do you disagree with the statement they say before the homeowners had begun installation on the new fence, we spoke with them over the phone expressing our concerns and offering options to compromise. Petitioner: It was after. Mrs. Trepanier: It was after the three sides were already up. Moran: So, you disagree with that. Okay. So, after this came to your attention you phoned them and you don’t recall any offers to compromise. Their position was very straight forward. We want a wooden fence. Mrs. Trepanier: Right. Moran: We want a chain link which is permitted. We don’t want your vinyl. Petitioner: Well, I think they said and they said in their letter, they were perfectly willing to take the chain-link fence down. They just did want the fence that we chose. Moran: Well, their closing comment is that if the homeowners are not willing to install a six foot shadow box fence along the shared property line, then we request they replace the chain-link fence which was destroyed during the demolition. And you say that that has been reinstalled. Mrs. Trepanier: Yes, it has been. Moran: So in essence, you had one conversation or telephone call. Mrs. Trepanier: I think two phone calls are what I had with them. Petitioner: And then we sent them a letter. Mrs. Trepanier: And then I sent them a letter as well. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 49 February 15, 2011 Moran: Can I ask why you wouldn’t go knock on their door and have a face-to-face discussion? Petitioner: Well, we talked to the contractor and he said the lady was pretty upset because he started doing the stuff wrong and the guy – we talked with the guy on the phone and like I say, we don’t really know. We don’t live in that house yet. We hadn’t moved in yet so. I mean, it’s not like I can just walk next door to talk to them either. So, we thought we would put it down in writing and we sent them a letter. Moran: And it’s a very nice letter. I still think that if I were in that position – well, we all do things differently. If I’m intending on living next to people, I’d probably want to go over and meet them and try to start off the best way I can regardless if they were upset at that point. Mrs. Trepanier: I’m better with writing things than, you know, I don’t like to get in confrontations with people face-to-face. So, I thought it would be better and more well thought out if I put it in writing and then they would have a chance to read it and digest it rather than going over there and maybe having them get upset and us getting upset and not getting anywhere. Moran: And I compliment you for that. I’m curious why both weren’t done. I have no other questions. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Harb. Harb: Well, I don’t like neighbor disputes and it happens a couple times a year. I think that what you’ve done is very reasonable, but I believe that the Demings at 11301 Arden and the other neighbor at 11309 Arden should have been here. I feel like we only have half of the picture. I’d like to be able to ask questions, you know, to what their thought process is and I feel like because they’re not here at the hearing we’re not getting that complete picture. So, I’m perfectly okay with tabling this. Having them come back at another time. If they don’t come back the next time, I would just approve what the Petitioners are asking for. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Those that know me know I’m generally not without an opinion, but this one is a tough one. I personally like vinyl fences. I’m on record for that. I like the fence you’ve selected with the open top that’s much less of a barricaded look. I think it’s fabulous. I agree with Mr. Harb, I’d like to hear the other side to this. I’m not sure that I agree with Mr. Harb though that we in essence tell people that they’re required to show up here, or we are going to approve something that they don’t care for that they have documented. Even though I will state publicly I like your solution better than the other. You created this situation. You could have avoided this situation potentially. You might have an empty yard. You may have had to do something else, but by delegating this responsibility to someone else by not securing the permit or the permission unfortunately you’ve caused the situation that you’re in and I don’t know that – and it’s City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 49 February 15, 2011 particularly hurtful to have to put up a fence that you don’t care for and have to pay for it. But unfortunately as I view it, these neighbors kind of hold all the cards right now and I’d like for you to look for a solution, a compromise of some sort rather than door A or door B, but this is why I explored why you wouldn’t try to have some sort of face-to-face even if they threw you off their property for trespassing. At least you could say that I gave it a try so. I don’t know what I’m going to do on this one. I have to listen to the others. Tabling is less permanent, but I don’t know that we’re going to accomplish much. I don’t know that it’s fair to demand people show up or they’re going to get something adjacent to their backyard that they don’t want. So, I’ll have to listen to the others. Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, you certainly beat the neighbor to the punch here with the privacy fence in the back. They admit in their letter that they’d like to have a privacy fence and I guess the issue is, of course, style. I also feel vinyl is a much, much better choice and what you have there is very nice. So, style is the issue. It’s not privacy, privacy they want as much as you want, protection for the dogs to jump. Obviously, they’re interested in that as well or they wouldn’t entertain a wooden fence. The line of thinking from Terry and Ken about the neighbors not being here, not hearing their side of the story. I guess I heard their side of the story. I heard the one that shares – and most of it is blocked by their garage are strongly opposed to vinyl. That’s their story. The one next to them doesn’t feel strong enough to oppose, support, send a letter, show up, so, that to me tells a story. They were invited here just like all of us were and they don’t feel strong enough to oppose it other than a letter that agrees to privacy, but not style. I’m going to support your project here. I think it looks good. I think completing it will make it look better. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: Well, my colleagues have just about covered just about every inch of this yard stick that we are looking at. There’s not much more I can add to it other than the fact that I do not like wooden fences. I feel after a couple of years they become very shabby looking and in this instance I’m concerned about what our City of Livonia is going to look like and if we put vinyl fencing in like you propose to do I think that’s really the way to go; however, we have to look at the other side of the coin and some people are opposed to vinyl fencing because of the cost and they don’t want to be embarrassed by bringing them to the surface and say, is this the reason you’re opposed to it. I’m going to support your petition because I feel that your neighbors were aware of you coming here tonight. They must have gotten a letter within a certain radius and they had every opportunity to be here to voice their opinion. They obviously are not here. So, they obviously really don’t care. So, I’m going to support your petition. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I think I can support this. I think Mr. Sills and Mr. Caramagno said it quite well. The other people aren’t here. They did write a letter and they weren’t feeling strong City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 49 February 15, 2011 enough to show up. The neighbor next door as Sam said, they’re ignored the letter either way. I think I can, yeah, I think I can support this. Henzi: Generally, I prefer the vinyl fences over the wooden ones. I don’t think it’s fair to have to force a certain type of fence on to somebody else. I think your solution is the better one even though you’re sort of forcing their hand. What I don’t like about the Deming’s approach is that they didn’t put up the wooden, but they want you to do that for them or plant trees. They want you to spend the money. I’m really disappointed that they’re not here because there might be more to the story and, you know, I could go along with the tabling, but I’d rather see you go to their house and talk to them rather than try and make them appear. I mean, I suppose we could ask Mr. Fisher to write a letter asking them to come based on evidence that came out, but you know, I’ll just throw that out there. If there’s consensus for a tabling, you know, maybe it’s just that you have to go speak with them because – and I’ll give you one example. There’s talk about the fact that they installed three sections of fence about a year and-a-half ago and Mr. Kearfott said that they pulled a permit. Their letter says that they have three sections of wooden, but only one of which was installed a few years ago. My thinking was that if they went to the trouble of installing three sections of wooden fence but left the fourth empty, they really don’t care about that section of the fence and that’s because they didn’t, you know, it’s in the back, it’s obscured by the garage, there’s trees there. It’s just not that important to them after you asked to put up the vinyl, they still didn’t do anything. They didn’t ask for your permission; however, if they only put up one at a time maybe they’ve got sections in their backyard that I don’t know about. That’s the only thing that problems me. So, I guess the floor is open for a motion. I mean, I like this scenario but tabling wouldn’t be a bad thing either; any other thoughts? Mr. Moran. Moran: I would propose tabling for them to talk because it troubles me to think that the people wrote a very thorough letter. We don’t have a requirement that you should be here. It would be nice. I’d like to get answers to the questions you asked Matt, particularly, why did you not do this back section? I might be persuaded to make a choice that somebody wouldn’t like meaning the neighbor if I had that information. If I got this letter and I stated my position clearly throughout this Board to sit here and say they don’t care because he didn’t show up. We don’t know what their responsibilities are this evening. We don’t know why they’re not here. I don’t feel comfortable saying personally saying put a fence there that’s going to be there a long time because somebody didn’t show up tonight. I agree with everyone else, I’d like to have the opportunity to ask them. I see a lot of things that are unfair. The Petitioner didn’t want to go next door and talk to them but they are willing to come and go through this whole process, public process. These folks don’t show up. These folks didn’t offer to pay for something back there. None of this adds up well for me, but I’m not so willing to put these stakes in the ground. So, I’ll offer a tabling motion. We can try it. If it fails, we can offer an acceptance motion or the other way around. It doesn’t matter to me. Henzi: Any other comments then before he makes a motion because there won’t be any discussion -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 49 February 15, 2011 Harb: Yeah, my other comment is there is at least 18, 20 feet of 11309 Arden and we haven’t heard a thing from them. It sounds like they don’t care, but you know, if they don’t care the solution is half way complete -- Henzi: That’s true. Harb: I would prefer to, you know, get something back from them one way or another. Henzi: Okay. I’m convinced. You make good points. Any other comments? Go ahead and make the tabling – hang on. Moran: Someone else wants to speak. Caramagno: It doesn’t seem like we got the three for the approving. That’s for sure. So, the next best is to table. Harb: You do have three to approve it. Caramagno: You need four to approve it. We don’t have the fourth. So, the next best is to table it and give these people another shot at coming in here and tell them their story as well as the neighbors who didn’t care enough to come in and tell us why they don’t like blue jeans and they like black jeans instead. I’m opposed to it, but I will support a tabling motion as the fourth vote to give them another shot. I’m not a fan of it but I’m not going to go three and then three and let this thing drag out and die. Henzi: Anybody else? Pastor: On your tabling motion are you going to request or are you going to demand that they come in – or are you just tabling it to say, we’re going to table it for the neighbors to have an opportunity to speak on their behalf? I mean, we can’t demand for someone to come in. We can ask them. Mr. Fisher will write a letter, they’re going to think they’re being demanded to come in. If I get a letter from the City Attorney, I’d think oh, shit, what the hell happened. Henzi: That’s true and even if we said you have to go talk to them, I mean, they could try 20 times. There’s no – it’s likely that they’re going to meet, but -- Moran: Is it reasonable to do a tabling motion for 60 days and review the case at that time? Pastor: Can I ask the people a question? Henzi: Sure. Pastor: Do you have plans of putting this in tomorrow? I mean, the grounds frozen. Petitioner: No, we had hoped to get it in in September, but that didn’t work out. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 49 February 15, 2011 Pastor: Okay. But now we’re here. When do you think you’re going to want to put this in the ground? Petitioner: Well, as soon as the snow is gone. Mrs. Trepanier: As soon as it gets warm enough. Pastor: So, March, April. Mrs. Trepanier: Ideally March rather than April because we want to move in. Pastor: Well, it depends on the weather. Mrs. Trepanier: Right, but we – this is the last piece to be able to move in because we don’t want to move in with the potential that their dog could get in our yard or our dog could get in their yard. Pastor: So, if you gave them 30, 60, 90 days, it doesn’t matter. They’re not putting it in anyways. Henzi: Okay. Moran: What did we conclude? Pastor: I just ask the questions, I didn’t conclude anything. Harb: They can come back in three weeks, in a month; right? Henzi: Yes, they could. Kearfott: Can I ask a question? Henzi: Hang on one second, Mr. Kearfott. Kearfott: How long have you worked on this project over all that you haven’t spoken with any of your potential new neighbors? Petitioner: Long time. Kearfott: What would you say, a year, two years, three years? Petitioner: A couple three years, yeah. Kearfott: Four or five? Petitioner: I’m not sure exactly, at least three, yeah. The fence was the last piece. The house needed a lot of work. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 49 February 15, 2011 Caramagno: Well, if you table it – it looks like it’s going to be tabled, but if it’s tabled and you have a period of time which they can either talk to the neighbor, come back to us, present the same exact thing. The other opportunity is that you might have Toni here as well. Pastor: Yes. Moran: So, that’s what I just said to Matt. Caramagno: That would make a difference. Moran: If we tabled it without regard to a timeline, either they can bring it back before us with the same information or additional information for a final decision. The new neighbor could petition for a variance on the same piece. I mean the other neighbor. Or we might never hear from anybody again and this condition may exist or they might do something that complies with our ordinance, but I’m not sure a timeline is really benefit or necessary. It’s not like we have a condition that has to be rectified like in other cases we have seen. Caramagno: All right. I agree with that. Moran: Do we just table it? Caramagno: That’s a good thought. Moran: Do we just table until – table and allow the Petitioners to do something else, to seek another solution. Fisher: But they don’t have to. Moran: They don’t have to. Caramagno: Let me ask you this. You’re saying table it with no timeframe on it? Moran: Yeah. Caramagno: What happens if they never come back, the other neighbor comes in wants a shadow box fence and we’ve still got a tabled item on the -- Pastor: And a letter from them saying they object. Caramagno: Everything should have a conclusion on it. Everything should have a timeframe on it. So, you’ve got an open table case with no closure date on it and then the other neighbor says, I want to put up a shadow box fence now. Now, what do you do? Moran: So following your line of thinking 60 days we don’t hear from anybody, we review the case and say denied, concluded. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 49 February 15, 2011 Caramagno: Or approved. Harb: But the Petitioners don’t want to wait 60 days to put up their fence -- Pastor: They’re not going to do it for another 90. Harb: Well, no, it’s February. We’re talking about 45 days is basically -- Pastor: Yeah, well, okay, they’re not going to get it in in March. Petitioner: If it’s warm in two weeks, I’ll have the guy working on it. Pastor: Yeah, okay. Petitioner: Warm enough. There’s not much left to do. Caramagno: I think we’re going to have a tabled motion no matter how you slice it. Moran: No, he’s brought up another good point. Henzi: Yeah. Moran: That we deny it or approve and then the other neighbor can come. I don’t have a problem, with the timeline. I didn’t think it was necessary, but I’ll propose it. Caramagno: It doesn’t hurt anything. Harb: I believe the Petitioners should come back the next available time three weeks to give the 11309 Arden an opportunity to write a letter or not because they didn’t say a thing and they have 20 feet of potential conflict as well. Petitioner: Are we still allowed to comment? I would just say, the notice for that they already got it and, and we’ve talked to the guy a couple times on the phone and we’ve lettered back and forth to each other and it’s the same contention, you know, it’s just this basic same thing. So, if we wait a week or wait a year and a half, it’s – I don’t think anything is going to be any different. And everybody’s notified to come here if they want to and they did write a letter, I mean, that’s their comments. Moran: Well, in all likelihood if you force for a conclusion tonight you’re not going to get what you want. Harb: Here’s what I’d like to know from the neighbor at 11301, if they want a wooden fence, are they willing to pay for it and if they are not, then I think we know what the answer should be. Mrs. Trepanier: If they wanted it and were willing to pay for it, I guess my point would be why didn’t they do it when they did the other three sides? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 49 February 15, 2011 Harb: Well, exactly I’d like to be able to ask that question as well. Petitioner: It comes to, you know, if they like that one – I don’t. I like mine – they don’t. What do you do? Harb: So, what would you do? Mrs. Trepanier: I don’t know. I don’t know honestly. Petitioner: I’m lost. Harb: Would you, if they agreed to pay for it, would you be willing to have a wooden fence then? Petitioner: I don’t think it looks very good. I think the one that they put up I think it looks – it’s a couple years old. I think it looks pretty tacky already. Mrs. Trepanier: The ideal situation would be if the City of Livonia would let us put up two fences and we could do our side and they could do their side. That would be the ideal situation, but the City doesn’t allow that apparently. Moran: Why don’t you put up wood and put vinyl on your side just like the side of your garage? Petitioner: Well, actually we said we could put up our vinyl fence and I’ll put wood like you’ve got along the other side on theirs, but I don’t know if the City would consider that to be two fences and then you couldn’t do it. Sills: Could we, for instance, table this thing based on a full Board hearing so Toni and all of us will be here and the chances of them getting it passed would be pretty decent? Henzi: Yeah, the only problem with that is you just can’t require it to be a full Board hearing because what happens if they come back and then Toni - somebody else is sick and they say we’ll take our chances with the six, you know what I mean? I think you make a good point, I am just saying that if you make the motion you shouldn’t require it, you should just say that the motion is for them to come back to give them an opportunity. Sills: Okay. Why don’t we just table this for a date after the 22nd if you know what I mean. Moran: Can I -- Sills: So, we’ll just table it and the letters will go out again to the neighbors and everything and when they come back if the neighbors aren’t here then they’ve made their choice a second time. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 49 February 15, 2011 Moran: Can I suggest we consider tabling it for up to 60 days and allow these folks to come back within that time period and if not we will untable it and decide what to do. Caramagno: Support. Sills: Was that resolution? Henzi: Yes. Moran: It was really discussion, but it can be a resolution, too. Henzi: There’s the motion by Mr. Moran, support by Mr. Caramagno. Please call the roll. Upon Motion by Moran, supported by Caramagno, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-02-05: Kenneth and Wendy Trepanier, 11300 Melrose, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to erect a 6-ft. tall privacy fence along the east property line without the approval of the adjoining property owners, which is not allowed. The property is located on the east side of Melrose (11300) between Elmira and Plymouth, be tabled up to 60 days allowing the Petitioners to either talk with neighbors or seek an alternate solution. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Moran, Caramagno, Harb, Pastor, Sills, Henzi NAYS: None. Henzi: Your request is tabled for up to 60 days. You don’t have to do anything or you can contact the Zoning Board Office and ask for a hearing on another date. You’ve heard suggestions to go talk to the neighbors. You don’t have to, but my -- Petitioner: Do I have to pay for another hearing or is that part of the -- Henzi: No. You don’t have to talk to them but you did hear from several Board members that they thought that that was a good idea. And let me add just one more thing. Mr. Harb talked about the fact that a couple times we have neighbor disputes over fences - a lot of times its one person wants to put a privacy fence and the other person doesn’t want it because they like open spaces. This is different in my opinion because two people have different desires about what should go there and you’ve heard comments about people thinking yours is reasonable, but we want to hear from the Deming’s and 11309. Lastly, I’ll leave you this, take into consideration everything that was said and we’ll see you on another date. Petitioner: So, do I have to schedule another date then? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 49 February 15, 2011 Henzi: You just call Jackie at the ZBA office and ask for a hearing. Petitioner: And you guys do this what – once a month or? Henzi: No, if you call her before 10:00 a.m. tomorrow, you could be back March 8th, or March 22nd, or April 5th. Petitioner: And so we would tell her this was tabled and that we -- Henzi: She will re-notice and tell you what day you pick and we’ll see you then. Petitioner: Okay. Mrs. Trepanier: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 49 February 15, 2011 (8:31 #3/2957) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-02-06: Middlebelt Plymouth Venture, L.L.C., 17800 Laurel Park Drive North, Suite 200C, Livonia, MI 48152, on behalf of Lessee Rue21, Inc., 800 Commonwealth Drive, Suite 100, Warrendale, Pa 15086, seeking to erect two wall signs upon the front building façade in a multi-tenant retail space resulting in excess number of wall signs. Number of Wall Signs Allowed: One Proposed: Two Excess: One The property is located on the south side of Plymouth Road (29643) between Middlebelt and Milburn, Henzi: Craig, are you recusing? Pastor: I have not done any work with Schostak in several years. Henzi: I’ve given this a lot of thought. I am going to recuse myself because I have recused myself on all other Middlebelt Plymouth Venture, L.L.C. requests. I am an attorney. I do work for Schostak. It’s been several months, but I am on the approved list to work for Schostak and my partners still do work for Schostak and to avoid the appearance of impropriety, to avoid somebody suggesting that my vote was, you know, for this Petitioner because of my relationship, I’ll recuse myself and turn the gavel over to Mr. Moran. Moran: Thank you. Any questions for the Inspection Department or the Law Department? Kearfott: Not at this time. Moran: Any other information? Okay. Can you tell us your name and a little bit about your project, please? Petitioner: Yes, good evening. My name is John Carroll, 29350 Wall Street, Wixom, Michigan. Moran: Mr. Carroll, can you give us a little more information about what you’re trying to accomplish here. We’ve got your package. We understand the placement of it. Why do you feel it’s necessary to have additional signage here – two signs rather than one? Petitioner: It’s not really two signs. Their logo includes that et cetera sign. The problem is there’s not space on that section of wall to install it. If you read the questionnaire, we’ve answered questions three through seven and it gives an explanation of what’s going on between the restrictions on the wall there penetrating the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 49 February 15, 2011 parapet wall for the owner. You will not allow that. They do occupy all three of those sections of that building, but the stone columns are dividing their area up so they couldn’t keep the two pieces together. They are within the square foot allowance. It’s just a matter of where it’s placed on the building. Moran: So to be clear, you’re suggesting – you have a rendering here. You’re suggesting the Rue Et Cetera would not fit in that center section? Petitioner: That’s correct. Moran: And you’re not allowed by the landlord’s requirements, you’re not allowed to go any higher as the Rue 21 in the center section is placed as high as is permitted under your lease? Petitioner: Yes, he will not allow any penetration through the parapet wall. Moran: What is the necessity Rue Et Cetera? Petitioner: That’s their standard. That’s their corporate logo. Moran: W hat is your position here, sir, with respect to this lessee? Petitioner: I am just a sign contractor, installer. Moran: So, when you say that’s their corporate logo, where else is this corporate logo presented? In other words, it’s not on their website. It’s not in their 10Q, 10K filings with the SEC. There is no mention of Rue Et Cetera that I can find. Petitioner: Well, I don’t know that all stores are et ceteras. Moran: There’s a difference between an et cetera and a Rue 21; is that? Petitioner: I believe so because I’ve seen other Rues that didn’t have it, older ones. Moran: Can you tell me the difference between a Rue 21 and a Rue Et Cetera? Petitioner: I’m just guess. I’m thinking apparel or something they do different to the store maybe it’s a larger store than normal. Moran: Any other questions for the Petitioner? Harb: Mr. Chair. Moran: Mr. Harb. Harb: Mr. Carroll, can you tell me how many square feet the Rue 21 and Et Cetera is? Petitioner: 62.87 square feet. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 49 February 15, 2011 Harb: 62.7? Pastor: I think he said 8/7. Harb: Mike, do you happen to know how much is allowed? Fisher: Well, I know they’re conforming. Harb: Well, 64.33 is the sign allowance. All right. So, they’re inside within the sign allowance. This is a corporate logo, right? And generally it’s next to the Rue21, it’s not below? Petitioner: Correct. Harb: Do you know – do you have any other signs – Petitioner: I don’t have any documentation to show that, no. Harb: Thank you. Moran: Any other questions for the Petitioner? Petitioner: Excuse me, I do have one. Moran: Just to be clear, Mr. Carroll, do you think there are Rue 21 stores and then you think that Rue 21 Et Cetera is something different like a Gap and a Kids Gap or something like that? Petitioner: That’s only a presumption on my part. I’m just guessing. Moran: Okay, any other questions for the Petitioner? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Moran: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Why do you feel that this is an equitable part of this – what is your hardship here? Petitioner: Pardon me? Pastor: What is your hardship? Petitioner: For the columns and the fascia of the building don’t allow us to put the logo where it belongs. Pastor: Well, you could put it underneath. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 49 February 15, 2011 Petitioner: No, they’re talking - it can’t go underneath? Pastor: Who’s telling you that? Petitioner: Rue 21. I guess that’s their corporate logo – that’s what I’m being told. Pastor: No further questions. Moran: I’d like to follow up on that. Rue 21 is telling you, you can’t go underneath because there’s not adequate room or because that that is against their policy of placement? Petitioner: They’re telling that’s the placement is to the right. I don’t think there’s room underneath as well. It doesn’t appear – well, it’s possible, but it doesn’t appear to be. Moran: It appears to me from this rendering, if there is, you’re the sign expert, I’m not. You have the exact dimensions of the building. It appears to me that the Rue 21 could be raised somewhat. This et cetera and the exact dimensions could go underneath. I personally find it not descriptive to have this et cetera off to the side. Certainly if you’re driving on Plymouth Road, it’s difficult to tell where the entrance to this place is with three different awnings. They all appear about the same. You can hardly see the doorway and it’s just an unbalanced look. Et Cetera adds nothing for a description for me, but if you care to comment on that, if not, I’ll move the case along. Petitioner: Well, if you’d like me to gather – if you’d like me to gather more information on their logo, I can do that. Moran: Well, we’ll find out what each of the members wants, any other questions from the Board? Is there anyone in the audience who would like to comment at this time? If so, please come forward. Seeing no one, you have the opportunity to make a closing -- Caramagno: We have a letter. Moran: Oh, I beg your pardon. Letters, Sam. Caramagno: We have an approval from Janet Miller, [30020 Orangelawn] (letter was read). That is it. Moran: You have the opportunity to make a closing statement if you care to. Let me try to help you with that. Petitioner: Would the Board like to hear more information? Moran: Who could you bring – I’m asking for myself. I think you’ve been dealt a little bit of a tough hand tonight to come here as a sign representative, don’t understand the business. There’s no representative from the landlord. Who would be able to answer some of those questions for us? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 49 February 15, 2011 Petitioner: I would assume somebody from Rue 21. Moran: Where are they headquartered? Petitioner: I’m contracted by the sign manufacturer. They’re located in Georgia. So, I don’t know where Rue 21 is based out of. Moran: What is this that you’re handing me? Pastor: That’s the picture of the building and it looks like from this way it could be moved up two or three and the et cetera could be put underneath that. Moran: Yes. Harb: I don’t think so. Caramagno: This is how it looks now? Pastor: That’s how it looks now and the race way is that piece in the middle and that’s how it’s attached to the building is the race way. Caramagno: The race way is that – what is that aluminum that goes east to west? Pastor: Yeah, the metal right and center of the sign. Petitioner: You’re suggesting to move the letters up. I don’t know where that roof line is in this picture against that wall. Moran: Is there anything else? Harb: Mr. Chair. Moran: Mr. Harb. Harb: Mr. Carroll, I just want to review. There is a uniqueness here because the Rue 21 basically takes three store fronts; right? And as a corporate logo, they like to be able to have the et cetera parallel or along side the sign. Petitioner: Yes. Harb: The denial of the variance basically would not allow for a corporate brand identification properly; right? Now if this was, if they were to take one of the -- because they are taking three, you know, we did this with other businesses in that area because it was larger than other spaces we allowed for more signage. So, to have two signs on three store fronts, that is less than allowed from a total to me it doesn’t seem like we should try to table this. Caramagno: We should or we should not? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 49 February 15, 2011 Fisher: In other words, you’re saying it should be approved? Harb: I believe so. Fisher: Okay. Harb: What do you think, Mr. Carroll? Moran: Any other questions or comments for the Petitioner? Petitioner: No comment. Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Moran: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: This was designed not by you, you’re the installer here? Petitioner: That’s correct. Caramagno: This was designed by a sign company out of Georgia. Petitioner: Yes. Caramagno: And obviously gone over with Rue 21 and this is what they came up with? Petitioner: Yes, designed to the ordinance obviously because they brought it right to the -- Caramagno: Within the ordinance, but between Rue 21 and the designer they came up with this and here you are. Petitioner: Right. Caramagno: Facing the gauntlet to put up a sign. All right, that’s what I wanted to know. It wasn’t just someone that designed this. Rue 21 was involved. This is acceptable to them. Petitioner: Correct. Caramagno: Okay. Moran: If you have no other closing comments, we’ll close the public portion of the case and begin our comments with Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: And just off of what I said, if Rue 21 finds it, it look okay for them, I don’t think it’s too offensive. It clearly has a problem with the verticals there or it doesn’t fit as City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 49 February 15, 2011 maybe it would on a wide-open area. Again, it isn’t offensive to me. It fits within the square foot and I’m okay with it. I’ll be in support. Moran: Mr. Sills. Sills: Well, I’m going to reluctantly support this because some of the comments Mr. Caramagno has just made. To me it looks like a very unbalanced condition and – I don’t know – you’ve got three store fronts here and it seems to me like you’ve got two names using two store fronts and the other store front, I don’t know what it’s supposed to be. But if Rue 21 approves of this and they’re happy with it, so be it. Moran: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I suppose I could support this. It’s not something I – I don’t think it’s very aesthetically balanced as well, but I also don’t even know what Rue 21 is, so I suppose I can support it if it’s within the ordinance. Moran: Mr. Harb. Harb: I will support it as well. I think there is a uniqueness and I think the denial would not allow for a corporate brand identification and I don’t think that should be the purpose of our denial. Moran: This is always - signs on a building are always interesting to me. To me they’re somewhat dependant upon the length of the name of a business. If somebody is fortunate enough to choose a name of one, two, three, they can have very large signs and comply with almost any size. Somebody else has a name that is descriptive but longer, our ordinance will close them out. So, it’s a little bit unfair. So I’m pleased to see that this fits within our ordinance either because of the name or the choice of the size of the sign, but I think it is very poor choosing. Mr. Sills mentioned it’s unbalanced. Mr. Pastor mentioned and struggled with it – it’s unbalanced and frankly, I would be looking to go to a store called Et Cetera based on this thing. Petitioner: We could add one to the left side to balance it. Moran: Well, you could, but what you’ve represented to me this evening is that Rue 21 wouldn’t allow that. I’m sure it has to be to the right if they won’t allow it below. We could also table it and demand they show up as you’ve heard at length earlier. Petitioner: Why aren’t two fences allowed back-to-back? Moran: But, I am being serious when I think it’s not a good design and I think you’ve drawn an unlucky card to have to come here this evening expecting perhaps a rubber stamp and then we have more questions, but I’ll look to the Board for a motion. Caramagno: Are you going to take it or not. Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor, it was: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 49 February 15, 2011 RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-02-06: Middleblet Plymouth Venture, LLC. 17800 Laurel Park Drive North, Suite 200C, Livonia, MI 48152, on behalf of Lessee Rue21, Inc., 800 Commonwealth Drive, Suite 100, Warrendale, PA 15086, seeking to erect two wall signs upon the front building façade in a multi- tenant retail space resulting in excess number of wall signs. Number of Wall Signs Allowed: One Proposed: Two Excess: One The property is located on the south side of Plymouth (29643) between Middlebelt and Milburn, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the corporate logo will not fit between the vertical uprights on the center of three separate buildings. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because they would not be able to advertise their corporate logo with Rue21 insignia. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the Board received one (1) letter of approval and no letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 4. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified as “Regional Shopping” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That Petitioner design and build sign in the style as presented to the Board. 2. That the project is be competed within the next ninety (90) days. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Caramagno, Harb, Pastor, Sills NAYS: Moran ABSTAINED: Henzi City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 49 February 15, 2011 Motion by Harb, seconded by Pastor, to approve the minutes of 1/18/11. All were in favor. Motion by Moran; seconded by Caramagno to approve the minutes of 1/4/11. All were in favor. There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at 8:32 p.m. ___________________________ SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary ____________________________ MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman /hm