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HomeMy WebLinkAbout05-10-11 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 79 May 10, 2011 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING HELD MAY 10, 2011 MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman Terry Moran, Vice Chairman Sam Caramagno, Secretary Toni Aloe Robert Sills Ken Harb Craig Pastor MEMBERS ABSENT: None OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney John Podina, City Inspector Helen Mininni, Court Reporter The meeting was called to order at 7:02 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each Petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each Petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Seven (7) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each Petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, Petitioners and City Departments. There were 13 persons present in the audience. ______________________________________________________________________ (7:05 #1/145) APPEAL CASE NO. 2010-10-30 (Tabled on December 14, 2010): Ronald Tetrault, 30062 Puritan, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a 6-ft. tall privacy fence and maintain a 4-ft. tall picket fence upon a corner lot resulting in excess privacy fence height and a picket fence within the front yard, which is not allowed. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 79 May 10, 2011 Privacy Fence Height Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed/Existing: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Kentucky (33378) between Virginia and Farmington. Henzi: Is there a motion to remove from the table? Harb: So removed. Caramagno: Support. Henzi: All in favor say “aye”. Board Members: Aye. Henzi: Opposed? This is removed from the table. Thank you. Mr. Podina, anything to add on this case? Podina: Not at this time. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Podina? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table? Good evening. Can you tell us your name and address? Petitioner: Yes. Ronald Tetrault, 30062 Puritan, Livonia. Henzi: Mr. Tetrault, you were here once before and have you had the opportunity to talk to Sergeant Gibbs about the fence? Petitioner: I’m sorry. Henzi: Have you had an opportunity to talk to the Sergeant about the – Petitioner: No, I did not. Henzi: Okay. Did you have a question, Mr. Moran? Moran: No, I was just going to say he has been here twice. Henzi: Oh, sorry, you’ve been here twice. Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: He has authored a letter. You didn’t see his letter? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner: I did. No, we saw the letter and we talked about that last time. Yeah, that was – actually I think where it was last time is and it had to do with my, you know, lack of knowledge as far as the process. When I came last time, I chose to try to remove some of the sections that I truly wanted to keep and the main, the main reason was I thought that the letter and basically the Sergeant’s opinion was etched in stone and that was my mistake. I didn’t understand again the process and, you know, you explained to me last time I was here that it is certainly something that carries some weight, but – or a lot of weight, but it’s basically a guideline. It’s not really etched in stone. I guess my confusion has always been and again I know a lot of people want to come in and go well my neighbor has this so I want it. Not posing it in that aspect but, as far as putting – my original plan was to put a 10-ft. angle on it. There are absolutely many places in Livonia that people have this 10-ft. angle or an 8-ft. angle and I guess my concern would be if there was an issue with safety, wouldn’t there already be issues or incidents and fairly – you’d think there would be lots of incidents if it’s a real safety issue to be – to not have at least a 10-ft. which is what I want to do and that would be a sufficient, sufficient angle. So, you know, basically the second time I was here again, you know, my thought process was this is just not going to happen. They are not going to let me do this because of what the Sergeant said, you know, I don’t know what his motivation was by having a 20 or 24-ft. angle, I mean I’ve never had anybody, you know, to my knowledge ask to put that kind of angle on so I don’t know if this was one of the first times he was looking at it and that’s why he felt that was necessary. There is really no obstruction, I mean, there is no real reason for that to be any more than what a lot of other people used as a standard which is 8 or 10-ft. Henzi: I can’t speak for him but I know that his letter does state that he based it on the ordinance with respect to landscaping along sidewalks. So, I’m presuming from reading this letter that’s where he got the 25-ft not that he arbitrarily selected that figure. Petitioner: Right. Henzi: Anything else you want to tell us about what’s new tonight? Petitioner: Not really, no. Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioner? Moran: I actually have a question for the City. Mike, do you recall or John, I actually thought I remembered another case where the officer recommended a 10-ft. angle not the 25 that’s in this letter. Fisher: Well, I don’t – the 10-ft. thing was a rule of thumb that Ron Stanow or somebody like that came up with a long time ago and to my knowledge that has never been a police proposal or standard. Moran: I wish I could think of the case where this was on, but it seems, you know, a very similar situation - home facing one street and the garage and driveway on another - and I thought there was actually a recommendation for 10-ft, but if we don’t recall – to the – two questions for the Petitioner: It doesn’t state explicitly on here but am I to read City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 79 May 10, 2011 this that the fence that’s coming off the south part of your garage would be 10-ft. from the sidewalk and then the angle would begin? Petitioner: Correct. Moran: And it would also be 10-ft. back toward the south is where the angle would intersect? Petitioner: That’s correct. Moran: Okay. Petitioner: The other thing I would not have a problem doing is the fence is down now, a majority of it is. Obviously, the picket fence is all that’s left because at that point when we tabled it the other time I always agreed that it was not a safe thing, I mean, one of the first – I think I even said it before, one of the first times I drove up in the drive I’m like what’s the big deal? Then I went to go back out and I’m thinking, oh, you cannot see period. I mean I don’t care how slowly you backed out when the fence was butted right up to the driveway you absolutely cannot see which is obviously not an issue any more because it’s down and now we’re just deciding where to go from here. The north section obviously will not be an issue because it’s going to be north of the garage which will not cause any sight, you know, inhibited at that point, but again, I have no problems with moving the fence down to 5 feet so if, you know, the height of it from five to six is not pivotal for me. I have no problems changing the height to 5 feet so. Moran: And the history of this though is that when you purchased this home the fence was there. Petitioner: That’s correct. Moran: Erected without a permit, without going through the proper course. Petitioner: That’s correct, yeah, which is another observation, I mean, you know, -- Moran: So you would have to go – you would have to go buy a 5-ft. fence? Petitioner: Oh, no, we can reduce we can reduce the size of the sections down. Moran: Okay. Petitioner: Yes. Moran: If you recall, my real problem was with the picket fence. Petitioner: Okay. Moran: And I’ve asked you both times that you’ve been before us what you’re trying to accomplish with bringing that picket fence all the way out and I’d also like to say, when I City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 79 May 10, 2011 drove by your home on Sunday morning, I was coming westbound on to Farmington from – looking for the street here – from Kentucky. Petitioner: That’s Kentucky. Moran: And my problem was there was a lady jogging and I stopped at the stop sign and waited until she was – was going to let her pass and as she came out from beyond the picket fence, I found out she was pushing a child in a stroller or you know one of those one’s that’s made for that. So, my real problem is twofold, what are we trying to accomplish and I’m more concerned about the safety hazard over there because if that had been a small child riding a bicycle, I wouldn’t have seen them until they got to where the sidewalks intersect. Petitioner: Sure. Well, you know, ultimately – Moran: So, two questions. What are we trying to accomplish and why. Petitioner: Yeah, ultimately the goal is to create some level of blockage and I mean obviously people do it two different ways. One is by having a fence at one end; one is at the other end. Would I be opposed to taking a section or two of the picket down if the rest of it was maintained? Absolutely not I have no problems with that. Moran: I support that plan personally. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Moran: Mr. Chair? Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: On that same picket fence, how wide is the spacing of your fencing? Are they 10-ft. sections, are they 8-ft. sections? Petitioner: I believe they are 8-ft. Pastor: Eight foot? Petitioner: I do believe they are 8-ft. I could be wrong though. Pastor: Oh, okay. Petitioner: I think they’re eights. Pastor: Oh, okay. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Harb: Mr. Chair City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 79 May 10, 2011 Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: So, the letter from the Traffic Bureau dated November 3rd refers to the first proposal but not the second proposal. Henzi: That’s the way I took it. Harb: And Sergeant -- Petitioner: Well, it’s really the same though. I didn’t really – when I changed it the second time, I was really removing – Harb: No, you did change it because you had a 6-ft. panel going all the way up to the driveway and starting from the sidewalk on both sides of the driveway. Now, it’s changed. You moved the front – on the north side you moved it from the sidewalk basically to the side of the garage. Petitioner: That was always the plan. Harb: All right, then I’m looking – there’s another one. Pastor: There’s another one here. Moran: That’s correct. There’s another one subsequent to that. Harb: Okay. This is the one I was talking about. Moran: That’s right. We’re back to his first one. Harb: And that’s the one with the 10-ft. angle. Moran: Yes. Harb: And Mike, Sergeant Gibbs has not looked at this plan at all? Fisher: Now, I am completely confused because I thought this plan was reviewed at least once before. Petitioner: Well, the original plan would have been reviewed by him and then his recommendation was the 25-ft. angle and the problem with that was it basically went right through the only tree on the property as well as cutting right across the concrete patio slab. Fisher: Correct me if I am wrong, but this plan is dated – you had it for 5-10-2011 meeting this is your original plan; isn’t it? Petitioner: Correct. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 79 May 10, 2011 Fisher: Okay. So, yes, Sergeant Gibbs did look at this plan. This is new data and also old data. Henzi: But Sergeant Gibbs offered a September 16, 2010 letter with respect to plan number one, a November 3, 2010 letter with respect to the next proposal. Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Just so I’m clear. There are three different plans here. Henzi: Yes. Caramagno: There’s one with the fence along the sidewalk the whole way. Then there is two more that are identical. Henzi: Correct. Caramagno: The original was, I think, wasn’t the original the fence along the sidewalk; wasn’t that the original? Petitioner: Correct. Caramagno: Fence along the sidewalk. Petitioner: Are you talking about the picket fence? Caramagno: I’m talking about this one right here. Petitioner: I’m sorry I can’t see. Caramagno: That’s all right. Henzi: I think the brown one is the first one. Caramagno: It would be nice if there was a date on them. Henzi: Was proposal number one to remove the privacy fence or was proposal number one -- Petitioner: No, it was not to remove the privacy fence. Henzi: Right, okay. Petitioner: It was just to put the 10-ft. angle on there. Henzi: Yes, and then you got a letter from – we got a letter from Sergeant Gibbs -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner: Correct. Henzi: -- so you said, let me keep the picket fence, but remove the panel fence. Petitioner: Right. At that point I was just trying to save something to keep some level of traffic whether it’s cutting the corner and at that point it wasn’t what I really wanted, of course not. Henzi: And there was some discussion in here at this Board that maybe that wasn’t the best solution that you should be able to keep some of the fence. So you went back with Sergeant Gibbs and he still came up with a 25-ft. requirement. Petitioner: Correct. Henzi: But today you’re requesting -- Petitioner: Well, actually I haven’t spoke with Sergeant Gibbs a second time. Henzi: Okay. Moran: I have a question. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Mike, your legal opinion for the City, is it irresponsible for us to approve this or is it reasonable within our discretion? You’re going to be the guy in court if you ever have a -- Fisher: Well, I don’t know if irresponsible is really a legal term is the reason I am laughing. Well, the reason that we asked Sergeant Gibbs to do reports on this is because he has both the expertise and the responsibility within city government for issues of traffic safety and I would never counsel you to go against his advice. Moran: Okay. Petitioner: I’d like to point something out. The interesting thing is that some of the problem with the safety is about the picket fence and he had no problems with the picket fence as far as that was concerned and so I mean I understand that he is in a position that you look on him for his advice, but at this, you know, it just seems to me that at some point it is just his opinion and I know that you are saying that he had safety knowledge or, you know, he has training in it but here we have someone who is, you know, if you want to say untrained he had, you know, a difference of opinion with it. I guess my position is I also have an auto shop so I watch what people do and I run a collision part of my shop and I watch how things happen and how collisions occur. Well, when you’re backing across that sidewalk, a, you have to stop. I mean, if you don’t stop then obviously you’re going to run people over. Most cars are under 16-ft. long. If the driver is somewhere in the two-thirds forward and they pulled straight in, you would assume they are somewhere around 10-ft. That’s going to give them a line of vision. If City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 79 May 10, 2011 somebody is riding their bike and they’re going 20 miles an hour, I don’t care what your line of vision is. I run into it all the time at my shop. If you don’t go at a turtle’s pace when you’re backing over that sidewalk, people when they are blowing by on a bicycle and apparently they think that it’s a good place to go 20 miles an hour, you will hit them and you have to go at a turtle’s pace and have your head on a swivel. If you are there and you are at the sidewalk and you’re backing up and you’re looking and you have a vision of that and that’s probably at 15-ft. line of vision, I mean, if someone is walking or someone is there, you will be able to see them. There really is no defense to somebody driving a bicycle or going too fast on the sidewalk. It’s always going to be a hazard. Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: To the Petitioner, tell me why you want a 6-ft. fence rather than continuing a 4-ft. picket fence. Petitioner: Well, it’s a matter of the privacy and actually back then it was just my opinion that it would be very good for the people that are there, but now we’ve actually had them living in it for seven months and now it’s actually their request that we have it. So, again before it was just my opinion that I thought it would be a good idea and now and again, I have no problems with leaving the fence at 5-ft. it’s not a pivotal thing, but the thing of it is and again, if you’re walking by of course you can still peek over if it’s 5-ft., but if you’re driving by, you’re not just staring at somebody barbequing in their backyard or doing whatever they are doing. Harb: Are these panels 8-ft. sections or 10-ft. sections? Petitioner: I don’t know the answer to that. I think they’re 8-ft. Harb: How would you accomplish this at a 10-ft. angle? Are you going to have two panels or just – Petitioner: Well, I would say that they would probably shorten the sections off, try to make equal lengths. I mean they can do whatever – the panels are actually constructed in – you know, they are basically piece meal, you can build them whichever way you want. Harb: Okay. Moran: Mr. Chair, if I might add, I was doing that same thing as Mr. Harb, 10 by 10 by – you’d have a 14-ft. stretch on the hypotenuse there. So, you’re saying – Petitioner: You can make the fence lengths any length that you want. Moran: I’m trying to move this along. I really feel – Petitioner: So what you’re saying is you don’t want to see me again in another month? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 79 May 10, 2011 Moran: Well, I think in fairness to you, sir. I mean really, it’s not a matter that I don’t want to see you. I think this whole process has gotten a little lengthy and I’m looking for resolution here, but if you sit in this chair and legal counsel says, I’d never tell you to go against the expert’s opinion of which you pointed out I had an experience that was very different. His letter of September 16th says he has no problem with that because cars have to stop at the stop sign. If I rolled that sign, I could have hit that person – well I saw the person, but I didn’t see the stroller. Petitioner: And the situation is still the same with backing out of the driveway. If you don’t stop at your sidewalk and you want to roll it out every time, you’re rolling the dice period and really goes for any house really. Moran: Would putting two panels in there make it 16-ft. long, does anybody feel any better? Petitioner: I don’t have any problems with that. Moran: I mean it wouldn’t even be noticeable, sir, but again, I just want, you know, as you pointed out this condition exists in many places in the City and worse unpermitted of course. Petitioner: Right and I guess again I understand I certainly wouldn’t want to undermine anyone’s knowledge, and I’m sure that he has a lot of safety knowledge, but I guess again my question is, if this posed a real safety threat wouldn’t you think there would be at least one incident where people say that hey because of this angle there was an issue and somebody got hurt here. And again, I’m not trying to find out where the first time is, but if it was truly a safety issue and the issue wasn’t really people stopping at their sidewalk, then you’d think that there would be at least one incident. Moran: What do others think? Caramagno: When you say two eight footers, are you talking about on an angle? Moran: Yes. Caramagno: Okay. Moran: Yes, 16-ft. long. So, it’s going to be -- Pastor: The only thing is I’m looking at this tree and the tree may be – Petitioner: No, the tree was actually right in line when I had to make it – when I had to go – he wanted me to go 25-ft. in either direction, I mean, literally the angle would have been, you know, whatever that ends up being, I mean, it was actually almost from the front corner of the garage. Pastor: So if you went back two sections on the sidewalk towards the front of the house – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner: Well, I think they’re talking about making that the diagonal, the hypotenuse, right, 16-ft. and that absolutely would not be a problem. Moran: I’m suggesting 16-ft. there and whatever the setback becomes it might be 10 ½ by 10 ½. I didn’t do the calculation here, but you might have two equal sides to that triangle and the hypotenuse 16-ft. long and it’s going to be greater than 10-ft. nowhere approaching the 25. Petitioner: I have no problems reducing the height to 5-ft. and if you think that taking one section out at the before the end of the sidewalk is a good idea, then I have no problems with that as well. Moran: I believe heard one or two, sir. Petitioner: Well, that’s – Moran: I was focusing on the two I must say. Mr. Chair, it’s yours. Henzi: Away from Kentucky? Moran: Yes. That’s where I had the problem that last two meetings frankly. I don’t know how the rest of the group feels but -- Henzi: Okay. Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience in that wants to speak for or against this project. If so, come on up to the table. No one is coming forward. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: Yes. We have a letter of approval from Kelly and Ron Bruce 8974 Farmington Road (letter read). Letter of approval from Nancy Hay 8914 Farmington Road (letter read). Richard Honke 9000 Farmington Road (letter of approval read). An approval from Wendy Macauley, 8900 Farmington Road (letter read). Charles Weber at 33333 Kentucky Court (letter of objection read). Henzi: Mr. Tetrault, anything you’d like to say in closing? Petitioner: No, sir. Henzi: Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I think I can go with some of the new suggestions about the 16-ft. hypotenuse and the two pieces of the fence towards the front of the property coming back. I would like to get this off our plate and the applicant has been very workable with us so I can support this. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I can support his original proposal. I really think that there is a safety issue. The City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 79 May 10, 2011 property is on a major thoroughfare. I think the angle of 10-ft. – 10-ft. south of the driveway and 10-ft. east of the sidewalk will be sufficient. If I could approval this, I can also approve any other proposal. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: I think everyone knows where I stand. The only other thing - I like that the Petitioner has been very reasonable, if it’s okay with him, I personally find six feet to be just a little bit excessive. He’s offered five. If this thing is truly as flexible as the Petitioner says, I’d like to see five and a half, just that extra foot is so imposing to me, but again, I don’t feel strongly about that one because this condition exists throughout the City. This gentleman has come through the process and I feel shouldn’t be harmed for doing that when others have this type of arrangement without having gone through the process. The last comment I would like to make though is, I don’t like to go against our expert, but for the life of me in six years and a number of fence cases and police reviewing these things and similar circumstances, I can’t remember anybody ever recommending the 25-ft. This is new to me. I personally feel that 10 is sufficient and as the Petitioner has offered if you’re going to be careless, you’re going to have a problem with 25, 10 or zero, but it still requires a person to be careful but I don’t feel that we are ignoring safety by suggesting this. Those are my comments. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I will support the revised plan tonight. I think it’s a good plan. I would have supported the other one as well. I didn’t see a real problem with it so it’s good with me. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I’ll support the revised plan. I think the Petitioner has a hardship and a uniqueness just being on Farmington Road and then a corner lot. And I agree with Mr. Moran, I mean, I don’t care what kind of fence you have, when you cross the sidewalk you better stop and really take a good look both ways and that’s the only thing that is going to save the pedestrian. It’s not about the fence. So, I’ll support it. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I will also be in support. I feel that the 16-ft. angle is great and I think the 6-ft. fence is okay and one step further I think the Petitioner brought up a good point that if people aren’t careful they are going to have an accident no matter what you do you could put 25-ft and 50-ft. and if somebody decides they are going to back out of that thing full speed, they are going to hit somebody and you’re going to have a problem so I’m going to be in support. Henzi: Yes, I too, will support the revised plan. I don’t like going against the grain of the expert either, but I don’t think that what we’re doing is going to necessarily prevent or require an accident. It’s simply going to allow for a pedestrian or bicyclist to be seen as driver error is always the key like others have said. I would go with one section removed from Kentucky, but I guess I could go along with two, but I understand that one City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 79 May 10, 2011 of the Petitioner’s requests was he didn’t like people cutting across because Kentucky is a major entrance point to that subdivision. So, the floor is open for a motion. Fisher: Mr. Chair, if I may if anybody is interested, I did the calculation if you have a 16- ft hypotenuse to that triangle and two equal legs, you’re a little bit more than 11-ft. Henzi: Thank you. Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2010-10-30: Ronald Tetrault, 30062 Puritan, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a 6-ft. tall privacy fence and maintain a 4-ft. tall picket fence upon a corner lot resulting in excess privacy fence height and a picket fence within the front yard, which is not allowed: Privacy Fence Height Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed/Existing: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Kentucky (33378) between Virginia and Farmington, be granted in part for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because Petitioner’s home is on a corner lot and sits on Farmington inhibiting the homeowner and tenants privacy from the consistent traffic on Farmington Road. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because it would be impossible to enjoy the outside yard or shield it from the constant view of traffic. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because there are other fences in the neighboring properties and this is a well-planned and thought-out fence which is to be erected with vinyl materials. 4. The Board received four (4) letters of approval and one (1) letter of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low-density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, that the variance be granted with the following conditions: 1. That to assure a safe line of sight for vehicles backing down the driveway the angle of the fence be changed to form an unfenced triangle with two legs of City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 79 May 10, 2011 approximately 11-ft. length running along the south edge of the driveway and the property line with a 16-ft. hypotenuse connecting them. 2. That the fence be 5-ft. in height. 3. That one full section of picket fence going nearest the Kentucky Street corner be removed. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Aloe, Harb, Sills, Henzi NAYS: Moran. Henzi: The variance is granted with those four conditions. It has to be vinyl, built as presented, remove one section of picket from the Kentucky Road corner, 16-ft. hypotenuse on the angle and then limited to 5-ft. in height. Petitioner: Thank you very much. Outstanding. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 79 May 10, 2011 (7:36 #1/1052) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-04-15 (Tabled on April 19, 2011): Newburgh Industrial Group, 27750 Stansbury, Suite, 200, Farmington Hills, MI 48334, on behalf of Jani L. Platz, 45220 Danbury Road, Canton, MI 48188, seeking to operate an animal day care business with outdoor exercise area where such use is not allowed within an industrial zoned district. The property is located on the north side of Amrhein (37666) between Newburgh and Richfield Court. Henzi: Is there a motion to remove from the table? Pastor: I’ll make a motion. Henzi: Is there support? Harb: Support. Henzi: All in favor say “aye.” Board Members: Aye. Henzi: This is removed from the table. Mr. Podina, anything new to add? Podina: No, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Podina. Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Mr. Podina, I see they have the slats in the fence and it was discussed last case but I just got the minutes here tonight. Was there anything – I wasn’t there so -- Moran: They’re there tonight. Caramagno: Are they – the slats are still there, but was it discussed to remove them or was something else going to change there. Podina: I believe so. Caramagno: They were going to remove them at the last meeting? Podina: As far as I know. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 79 May 10, 2011 Caramagno: I just got the minutes to read tonight. Pastor: I don’t remember moving them. I remember that the slats were there to cover up a tank that gets filled quite often. That’s why they put the slats in -- Caramagno: But there was no further discussion to take them out? Pastor: No, the slats have been there for quite some time as I recall. Fisher: I think in partial answer to your question the concern that was expressed was noise for people across the street and the slats aren’t going to stop the noise so there was some thought that we would want to have better sound proofing. Caramagno: Okay. I thought I had seen something about some landscape or something, but I thought that was in the back. I paged through it real fast. Did they talk about putting any landscape screen in front of the fence? Henzi: I don’t think so. Caramagno: No. Okay. I was wanted clarification on it. That’s all I’ve got. Henzi: Any other questions? Okay. Can the Petitioner please come to the table? Can you introduce yourselves, please? Petitioner: Sure. I’m Jamie Platz and I live at 45220 Danbury in Canton. Petitioner Hill: My name is Bob Hill and I live at 17228 Cove Drive in Northville. Representative Lipshaw: I’m Marc Lipshaw and I’m with Newburg Industrial Group. I’m at 6577 Tory Brook Circle, West Bloomfield. Henzi: Perhaps you could start off by addressing Mr. Caramagno’s question and I just found it in the minutes. There was talk about the fact that there were plastic strips in the fence and Mr. Kearfott, the Inspection Department representative talked about the fact that was to block a nitrogen tank, but I don’t see that there was a response whether you wanted it because that was favorable for your business or you were going to replace it. So, what’s your opinion about that portion of the fence? Petitioner Hill: We had originally talked about putting some type of wind screen up. We don’t like the slats either. We talked about putting up something solid. After the concerns at the last meeting, we also discussed putting in an earthen berm in front of that fenced off area with like some arborvitaes to provide sound and coverage for that. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner Hill: So, you know, that’s in response to concerns that we heard from neighbors and from the Board members. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 79 May 10, 2011 Henzi: Is there anything else you would like to tell us about the proposal since last time? Petitioner Hill: We do have some letters from the neighbors on the Amrhein side. Petitioner Platz: Yes, Mr. Harb was concerned about Anderson Windows had not responded and since then we have been able to contact -- Henzi: Okay, any questions for the Petitioners? Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: If I’m not mistaken there were two members that weren’t present at the last time I think -- Aloe: That’s right. Harb: -- if we could start at the beginning. Aloe: We didn’t hear any of it. Henzi: Okay. That’s fair. Did you hear the concern was that there were two members who weren’t present the last time and if you could give them a brief overview of why that building and, you know, what are the hours of operation and that sort of thing? Petitioner Hill: All right. Basically we are asking for a variance at 37666 Amrhein. Our intent is to open a dog day care. We would be open Monday through Friday from 6:30 a.m. till 7:00 p.m. We would be open Saturdays from nine to five. We would offer dog day care services during those hours. People would drop off their dogs pick them up at the end of the day. We would also have a groomer on site, we would have a dog trainer on site for training classes for grooming of the animals and things of that sort. There is approximately 6,000 square feet of indoor warehouse space that would be play area. There is also an outdoor area that we plan to use as an outdoor area for the dogs. We are planning on removing approximately 1,000 square feet of the asphalt and taking that out and putting a gravel base in and dog-friendly artificial turf on that. That would be a place for them to relieve themselves. Like I said, the fence where you don’t like the slats in the fence either we would like something more solid just to block outside dogs from coming up to the fence, the dogs in there being able to see out. So, we were looking at a wind screen but we also, you know, have discussed putting in an earth and berm with landscaping that would accomplish the same thing. Henzi: Why don’t you tell them about why you like this particular building because it’s not zoned retail and it’s not on a major road? Petitioner Hill: Right. The needs we have are somewhat unique. We need a large warehouse space. We need a fair amount of office space and we also need outdoor space. So, the needs we have there’s simply not many options that have those City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 79 May 10, 2011 amenities. This building has a fenced in area already. It’s between another industrial building. The two buildings have block walls. There’s no windows, there’s no, you know, they would be fairly well contained within that area. In our research I know this is a difficult proposition because when a lot of these zoning laws were written this type of business didn’t exist so it is an issue of where to put these things. We feel the industrial site is a good site for it. I realize that on the south side of Amrhein is residential, but right past that is a steel plant and right next to the residential is a FedEx distribution warehouse. So, there is already a large amount of traffic that goes through everyday. It’s not, you know, a quiet cemetery-like residential area. There’s approximately a hundred trucks each morning come out of the FedEx facility. So, we don’t feel that it would be out of character with the existing space there, you know, it’s zoned for industrial. There can be, you know, machinery – machine shops things like that so we don’t feel that we would be disrupting the neighborhood and we feel it would be a good fit for the area. Henzi: I had one question that I thought of since the last meeting and, you know, I’ve gone at night after six o’clock and it’s quiet. I didn’t see any business operating when I went by at 6:30; does that comport with your understanding? I mean, there are no double shift operations on that street. Petitioner Hill: Right and our hours, we would close at seven so everyone would be picking their dogs up by, you know, 6:30 or so. Henzi: Okay. So your business would be ending around the same time as every other business? Petitioner Hill: Yes, yes, there wouldn’t be an increase at 9:00 o’clock at night of traffic coming in and, you know, that wouldn’t be a concern. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I’m just looking through these minutes a little bit. A maximum of 75 dogs at one time? Is that something – how do you come to that? Petitioner Hill: Yeah. Based on the square footage of what’s available. There are national standards that allow for how many square feet should be, you know, allowed for each dog. Caramagno: Is it a national business standard for dog day care type of scenarios? Petitioner Hill: Yeah. Caramagno: Is it a Michigan standard for kennels or is there a standard for that do you know? Petitioner Hill: It’s a self-imposed standard basically that the industry follows on the bid it says 100 square feet per large dog, 50 square feet for smaller dogs. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 79 May 10, 2011 Caramagno: Okay. Just dogs – how about cats? Petitioner Hill: No. Caramagno: Okay, just dogs. Petitioner Hill: Just dogs. Caramagno: And your hours you said till 6:30 or seven or something like that during the week, five on Saturday. Petitioner Hill: 6:30 in the a.m. till 7:00 p.m. during the week, nine to five on Saturday. Caramagno: Nothing on Sunday. Petitioner Hill: No. Caramagno: The fence again on the front, I’m a little hung up on that. I notice that the fence further to the right – it’s about this high off the ground. Petitioner Hill: Yeah. Caramagno: What are you going to do there to keep a small dog from coming out of there? Petitioner Hill: Well, obviously I don’t know that we would end up using that fence. It is with the slope of the driveway that’s why the gap is there. That would need to be addressed whether we put landscape in front or not. We would close that off. That’s not a gate that would be used for access. Caramagno: How about the doors right there just in front of that fence? There’s a side- entrance door there. Petitioner Hill: Yes. Caramagno: Is that going to be – do you have plans for that to be within the fenced area or -- Petitioner Hill: No, no, the fence is behind that. Caramagno: That door goes to the office or something it’s not a place where dogs will be let through? Petitioner Hill: No, no, it goes into – there’s an office right on that corner. It goes into that. That would not be used as for an entrance for anyone with the dogs. Caramagno: The dogs enter a fenced area toward the back? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Hill: Yes. Caramagno: Side door of some sort? Petitioner Hill: Yes, there’s a garage door and a walk-through door further down that wall. Caramagno: Is there hours that the dogs can be outside? You have 6:30 in the morning. Petitioner Hill: Yes, and we had discussed that. We would not have the dogs out there at 6:30 in the morning. They wouldn’t be out there before eight and we probably would not have them out there after five. Caramagno: Sounds fair. Okay. That’s all I’ve got. Thanks. Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: To Mike, would they be allowed to put up like a 6-ft. privacy fence to replace chain-link fence that goes across there? Fisher: I wasn’t clear on what they were talking about when they used the term “wind screen” but I don’t know of any reason why you couldn’t put a fence like that in an industrial district which is what this is. Aloe: To the Petitioner, are you set on what you’re going to do about replacing that. You said you probably won’t keep that fence. Petitioner Hill: No, I mean, we’re very open to your recommendations on that, I mean, obviously from our standpoint we want something solid visually. So, we would not be opposed to putting in a vinyl fence across there. Aloe: Okay. And the dogs don’t ever spend the night. Petitioner Hill: No. Aloe: And then what is that brown wall whatever that is metal, wood, I don’t know what it is between your building and Anderson’s building. What is that? Petitioner Hill: Towards the back? Aloe: Yes. Petitioner Hill: That’s actually, at one point, they had one tenant that was in both buildings. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 79 May 10, 2011 Aloe: And is there -- Petitioner Hill: And they connected a walkway. It’s sealed off on our side. I don’t know if on the Anderson Window side, I don’t know if they have access to it and they maybe use it for storage. Representative Lipshaw: That’s part of their building, Anderson’s building. Aloe: Oh, that’s Anderson’s even though -- Petitioner Hill: Like it originally connected the two buildings. Aloe: Okay. So, even though the yard in front of that belongs to your building, that walkway belongs to Anderson’s building? Petitioner Hill: That’s my understanding. Representative Lipshaw: That’s part of our lease agreement; correct. Aloe: Do you own both buildings and you lease to Anderson? Representative Lipshaw: Correct. Aloe: Okay. I see. All right. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: All right, this is to Newburg Industrial Group. I’m not sure who is going to speak on that. We heard earlier or at the last meeting that you guys manage a lot of property in Livonia, a lot of industrial property, and a lot of commercial property. Just out of curiosity, when you’re dealing with the doggy day care concept why this building versus a building say on Schoolcraft or on Stark Road or on one of your other properties? I’m trying to develop a uniqueness – let me finish. Petitioner Hill: We just -- Harb: What I see is basically nothing more than to earn a higher financial return and I don’t see really a uniqueness here and, you know, all I see is nothing more than true financial gain and I don’t believe we should be looking at that. So, you’re going to try to have to help me understand a uniqueness versus higher financial gain for one thing and, and if the denial of the variance was granted, you know, what severe consequences would you have other than – well, we don’t have a spot leased. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 79 May 10, 2011 Representative Lipshaw: Well, if I can answer a little bit of it. We own a lot of properties. We also go by the name of Dembs/Roth. That’s our parent company. We do manage two and a half million square feet most of it down I-96, M-14 corridor and little bit down I-275. We were one of the biggest developers in Livonia for a while. I believe we still are – we’re not developing any more but we still own a lot of property in Livonia. We started building down I-96 before 96 was even in. Our properties also down I-96 are zoned the same. So, to move anywhere down 96 or closer to Schoolcraft would run into the similar situation other than there is no residences right across the street. When we developed this property on Newburg and Amrhein, we developed that whole corner. No one had any idea there would be a doggy day care in the area, but from personal experiences most doggy day cares that I have gone to – I take my own dog when we go on vacation to one. They’re in a similar industrial building. This building in this case here fits their mold. It has a fenced-in yard that’s pretty much closed off from anybody to see. It’s safe for the dog. It is a quieter – it’s not a quieter neighborhood per se it doesn’t have I-96 right there just in case a God forbid a dog got away, but they do have there’s more control over the area than it would be right off of 96. Knowing that the residences are right across the street, they are very limited on how many homes are there. They’re surrounded by industrial areas. Other side of Newburg, north side of – even down Newburg in both directions and west and east on Armhein. This property as I said is very conducive to their needs. When I go to and take my dog to a doggy day care place, it is in an industrial building. You drive in the parking lot. They have more dogs than what they’re going to have and they do overnight stay. You drive up to the front door you don’t hear a thing. It is quiet. You walk inside, yes, you start hearing some dogs barking, but not all dogs bark at all times. When they are playing outside or they’re playing inside, they’re tired, they lay down and they just - dirty dogs will just lay there and just look at each other. They’re quiet. This seems to fit their mold very well. Harb: A couple things. Again, why Amrhein across from a residential area versus Schoolcraft, you know, across from a freeway or -- Representative Lipshaw: The size of the buildings that are available. Petitioner Hill: And I think for us, I mean we spent probably six months looking at buildings and this was the first one that we found that had what we needed. Most buildings that would fit building wise, you either have parking all around it that you would have to give up parking spots to fence something in and inevitably you end up too close to the property lines. They’re just not set up with free open space, you know, everything is either another building or parking. This one was unique in that it had the space between the buildings that was already fenced that was available. Harb: Concerning the space between the buildings is there a standard that says how many square feet outdoor play area per dog – like you’re not going to have all 75 dogs out there? Petitioner Hill: No, no. Harb: Is there a standard that says okay 10 square feet per dog or -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Hill: I mean not that I’m aware of, I mean, but you know, we would never have more than, you know, 10 or 15 dogs at a time out there simply as a manageable number. We don’t want, you know, for one inside is separated into separate play areas so those dogs – Harb: How would you manage something like that? You’ve got 75 dogs some are playing, some are in kennels, some are whatever, how would you – say okay, these 15 are going to go outside. Petitioner Hill: Well, there will be a couple of people in each play area, you now, so if you took part of the dogs out that person would go out with them the other person would stay inside with the group that’s in there. Harb: Any how do you handle the doggy do-do rather than the doggy day care – how do you manage, you know, the droppings or whatever. Petitioner Hill: I mean they’re picked up immediately and then disposed of, I mean, the last thing we want is to have it laying there so that they can track in it and get it on them and, you know, the concerns along those lines are greater with us, you know, as soon as a dog will go, we’d address it and clean it up immediately. I mean, that’s why somebody is always with the dogs. The dogs are never left unattended. Harb: And how many attendants do you need for 75 – Petitioner Hill: The national average is one person per 15 dogs. Harb: Okay. Thank you. Petitioner Hill: You’re welcome. Henzi: Any other questions? Mr. Moran. Moran: My concern the last time and remains tonight is the neighbors. You brought letters from other businesses. Mr. O’Neil, I believe it was, came and gave a rather lengthy talk and you had indicated that you knocked on some doors – didn’t reach anyone. Have you spoken to Mr. O’Neil to try to resolve his concerns or any of the other residential neighbors since our last meeting? Petitioner Platz: Yeah, Mr. O’Neil when he was in here had mentioned that he’s home all the time and that his concern was with the dogs and the noise and so forth. At that time, we addressed that, you know, visiting other dog day cares would be helpful. At that time, you would see as Mark had mentioned that on the outside you do not hear anything and, you know, you might hear something here or there, but that’s the whole point of -- Moran: But have you spoken with Mr. O’Neil since our last meeting? Petitioner Platz: No, I have not. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 79 May 10, 2011 Moran: Can you offer why you wouldn’t think that would be important for tonight’s proceedings? Petitioner Platz: Um. Moran: I mean you went to the trouble of getting letters from other businesses I think I would go meet with the people that are objecting. Petitioner Hill: I think our feeling was he was pretty set in his objections and, you know, that’s a common, you know, we’ve done research on other zoning variances that have, you know, in other cities and that is the first concern of neighbors is that they’re concerned with noise, they’re concerned with the waste and things like that, but you know, it turns out that it’s not an issue. Most places do not ever have complaints about it after the fact. So, it is, you know, I think it is the initial reaction of most residents is that they don’t want it because of these concerns. Petitioner Platz: I think we also spoke last time that there is a dog day care and kenneling at Four Legged Friends. I visited them several times and the neighbors up and around them and no one had any objection to their operation. I didn’t get anything in writing. I’m telling you I did so. There was industrial right across from them. There’s like this dog day care and then all around it is industrial and some of those areas are not probably what they were originally built for – some of them are different businesses. So, their residential starts further down. I think we addressed that, you know, it’s really our concern as well to operate a neat and clean and well-professionally managed business. So, that’s why we’re here. We had the opportunity with our broker here to look at many buildings and as soon as we saw – and we do like Livonia. I have a lot of friends, family, so forth from Livonia so we’re familiar with it. As soon as we saw this particular building compared to all other buildings and locations and so forth, we felt that this would be the safest and cleanest environment for everyone and that’s why we chose this particular building and tried then to pursue it because the other buildings would have been – like he said the yard was too big and now we’ve got to take out a lot of fences and bring it down or it was too close to maybe – and we think about that too, it was too close to a certain property line and we didn’t want that or electrical wirings and just things like that that we, you know, and taking care of our clients, these are their children and that’s how we plan to run this operation and this business. It’s important to us. Henzi: Were most of the other buildings that you looked more of an industrial nature and what I mean is that, I mean, this has got an attractive façade and it and the other buildings next to it have an office component. Like Anderson Windows and this building appear to have significant office component with maybe storage and/or production in the back. Does that make this building unique to or compared with others that you looked at? Petitioner Hill: Oh certainly, oh certainly. I mean -- Henzi: And is that why you like this one? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Hill: Oh, yes, yes, I mean I think there is no comparison of this to the vast majority of buildings out there. Petitioner Platz: As we pointed out the last time because of – and he did too – there are no windows. Its cement block all the way up and Ms. Aloe – is it; is that how you pronounce your name? Aloe: Aloe. Petitioner Platz: Aloe. Aloe: Aloe. Petitioner Platz: Aloe, I’m sorry. I was going to call you Toni and didn’t think that was polite. That brown metal steel wall that goes all the way up, I mean it goes up almost to the top of the building. That’s all very attractive and as far as the waste issue that was brought up – when you take out 100-ft. and put the gravel and sand down and then we’re using a biodegradable Astroturf that – and it is known that dogs generally will go – they do, they don’t go on a cement. They want to be on a grassy area. So, it’s biodegradable. We are going to clean on the spot, I mean, we will have the staffing that we will do that if that’s a concern. Henzi: I think the last question I have for you, you know, there’s been some talk tonight about that fence with the slats and when I looked – and I just want to make sure I’m clear, when I look at your plan for the building, to me that fence doesn’t seem like you intend it to be a protective barrier because there’s going to be a fence in the back; isn’t there? Petitioner Hill: Well, we originally had talked about that. Petitioner Platz: Yes. Petitioner Hill: But again, I think, at this point we’re open to – Petitioner Platz: We have several ideas to – Petitioner Hill: -- any solution. Petitioner Platz: Yeah, we have several ideas as to what would be best for the neighbors and what’s best for us as well as taking care of our clients. So, I would say that we have talked about a solid fence. We’ve also talked about lowering that fence. As far as those slats that are in it, we never intended to keep that. We’re were going to come up with a windbreaker barrier that would go across it and drop that down so, because we don’t want any dog to get out or anyone to be able to get in. So, if that is an issue for this, then tell us what you want. Henzi: Well, maybe I’m not clear, but when I look at the plan you’ve got the existing fence with privacy slats, but in the rear you’ve got what looks to me to be a fenced up City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 79 May 10, 2011 area where the canine grass is going to be installed. Petitioner Platz: Yes, it starts with that – Petitioner Hill: Yeah, originally we had talked about putting a fence between the grass and the existing chain-link fence. Petitioner Platz: Yeah. Henzi: All right. Petitioner Hill: Because, you know, for our needs that fence is not functional and like you say there’s a gap there and that needs to be addressed regardless of, you know, what we may do. Sills: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: If I may address the Petitioner. This may be kind of a goofy question, but how many years experience have you had in this type of business or is this a new venture for you? Petitioner Hill: Well, this is a new venture for us, but we have spent the last year probably training ourselves. We’ve been to other dog day care sites and observed their operations. We’ve actually worked at other dog day care centers, you know, for a week or two just to get some background information on this. So, it is a new venture but we have done a lot of research and homework on this to, you know, acquaint ourselves with the needs of the business. Petitioner Platz: Another thing I want to point out is that I have 33 years experience in property management and I’ve been anywhere from leasing and marketing all the way up to the general manager of operations. This business allows me to do exactly what I – I’m saying this humbly what I do best – and that is meet and greet and take care of residents, their concerns, their maintenance issues, their children. There was time in property management you had – you actually could be arrogant enough to say, we don’t take any dogs and things like that. So, as time went over and I helped develop that too, that you know, it’s important that we all start looking and thinking outside the box as to what we can do to make, make peoples’ lives better and so that’s how I’ve always run properties. I’ve always had high renewals, get very good reviews and that’s how I plan to run this operation. This is a like a child daycare seriously, I mean, these pet owners and just like Mark has testified on that, it’s important to know where you’re at and the people that are running it. So, I feel very confident that I would be as somebody who takes -- Sills: Do you have any committed clients right now? Petitioner Platz: We have right now four clients from Four Legged Friends that are City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 79 May 10, 2011 committed and have informed us that they will transfer over to us. They know us. Well, I only know one of the women, but the other ones were from referrals and they’ve already talked with us. The other thing is we had advertising ready to go and we were going to have them pre-register and because there is a temperament test, you know, they have to have veterinary shots and we’re screening and we’re making sure – we can’t accept every dog, you know, maybe the temperament isn’t right or we would never be able even if we wanted to take a dog that doesn’t have all the shots and proof of it so, as of right now I know of four. Petitioner Hill: And we have quite a few more people that we’ve talked to friends of friends things like that that have expressed a lot of interest. We’re very confident. The two places, the one in Livonia and there’s also one in Farmington Hills that are probably our main competition they are basically at capacity every day. Petitioner Platz: Like 150. Petitioner Hill: So, we feel very strongly that there is a strong market for this. This is a good area for this type of business and there’s a strong need for it. Sills: So this is based on – going into the dog business is based on just what you’ve seen in two other places or is this something you have thought of over the years. Petitioner Hill: Oh, yeah, I said this has been probably the last year – I mean I’ve looked up hundreds of variance cases on the internet to see what peoples’ concerns are, how they address them. We have looked at probably 20 or 25 different dog – we’ve visited probably 20 or 25 different dog day care centers around Michigan and into Ohio. We have searched hundreds if not thousands of websites and, you know, we have put a lot of -- Petitioner Platz: We’ve talked to a lot of people, we’ve called many in the United States and actually have open dialogue and communication with other dog day cares like in Kentucky and one in Florida, one in California that they were very welcoming and wanting to, you know, answer any questions or any concerns we may have and we’ve had some real good open dialogues with them and we will continue to have. Petitioner Hill: And we’ve also done a lot of leg work as far as people we know with dogs what they are looking for. If they take their dog to day care, what they like, what they don’t like and if they didn’t, you know, what would they be looking for. So, you know, we have definitely put a lot of thought and effort into this. It’s not something we’re blindly going into because we like dogs and which we do like dogs but we feel we’ve prepared ourselves very well for this business. Sills: Okay. I don’t have anything else. Henzi: Okay. Mr. Moran. Moran: Do you have any other hurdles you have to overcome to open or is this the last one? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Hill: This is basically -- Petitioner Platz: This is it. Moran: What is the length of the lease that you are contemplating, executing? Petitioner Hill: Five years. Moran: Five years. Petitioner Hill: Yes. Moran: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project, if so come on up to the table. No one is coming forward, can you read the letters? Caramagno: We have a letter from Anderson, Daniel Becket Anderson, 37666 Armhein Road (letter read). Regina Hall, Ingersoll Rand (letter read). Newburg Industrial Group, Marc Lipshaw (letter read). Henzi: Mr. Lipshaw, I’ve got a question about your letter. It’s addressed to an addressed on Mayfield. Who was that letter sent to, if anyone? Representative Lipshaw: My office probably put something – I don’t know what the address is. I think it was the wrong address, you know, when you do things fast sometimes you’re – I think her attention – I think she was trying to send it here. Henzi: Okay. Representative Lipshaw: I think that was what her intention was. Henzi: Is there anything you would like to say in closing? Petitioner Hill: I think we would just like to say that we feel this would be a benefit to the City. We think it’s a good fit for the business. We think there’s a need for it and we think we could fill that need. We think we would be an asset in Livonia. Henzi: Thanks very much. Petitioner Hill: Thank you. Henzi: I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Harb. Harb: I will not approve this like I said before I don’t believe it’s the best use of the property and I think that it’s creating a slippery slope as well. I also feel it fails the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 79 May 10, 2011 uniqueness test because the practical difficulty doesn’t entail anything more than the inability to earn a financial, you know, a higher return and I also feel that it is not consistent with the City’s Master Plan. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Question for the City again. Say they are open, they get 75 dogs, their barking isn’t contained, neighbors are calling, they have a five year lease, how do they resolve that situation? We have ordinances for noise or dogs not behaving, right? Fisher: Well, we have a noise ordinance that deals with decibels so we would have to take a decibel meter out there and see if it was – I’m going to guess unless all heck broke loose the dogs would not be able to exceed the decibel limits in the ordinance. Moran: So, a continual yelping is not illegal or against our ordinance? Fisher: Well, if you had, I mean, when you occasionally prosecute people which is a lot of fun by the way, for having their dogs that bark all night in a residential area or something -- Moran: That’s kind of what I was driving at, is how do you handle a situation like that that just is repetitive. In this case it could be different animals. I don’t have a problem with the uniqueness frankly because I think the business is unique. As I touched upon at our last meeting, this business doesn’t fit nicely into any zoning. What troubles me is just the residential aspect of it. It may only be 10 homes or thereabouts that are sitting in an island among industrial businesses and they could get a business over there that is much more annoying than this one might ever be, but as long as it’s a zoned use then that’s the risk they have when they bought it. My concern is putting a business in here for which it is not zoned and the fairness to the neighbors. Now it is interesting to me that there are no neighbors’ objections this evening. I don’t know if we received letters before. It’s also interesting perhaps Mr. O’Neil couldn’t make it. He had a lot to say last time, a lot of concerns and I’m really very bothered that the Petitioner didn’t go meet with the neighbor. If I have a problem with somebody, I’d go talk to him and say how can we resolve it regardless if their mind is made up or very difficult to change. I’d at least like to have the opportunity to see if they can be reasonable and if they choose not to be, then so be it, but at least I’ve made the effort. It really troubles me. Went to bother to go find, visit other locations which were primarily industrial, you went to other industrial – to get your landlord to write a letter, but the guy that came here and took his evening to do that you didn’t take the time to go see him. I really am quite surprised by that. Now, maybe that’s not a basis for making a decision, but as you can tell, I’m troubled by this. I’m not quite sure where I’m going with this one right now, but it’s the same concern I expressed at the last meeting and that is just the noise issue. I really believe you can dispose of things properly. I don’t believe there’s going to be an issue with respect to traffic. You have offered to limit this to certain hours outside if they bark inside I don’t think that would ever be heard. I have some concerns. I have nothing more at this time. Moran: Mr. Caramagno. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 79 May 10, 2011 Caramagno: I think there’s a hardship here. I think there are a couple hardships here. I think there’s a hardship the property owner can’t fill his building. I think there’s a hardship that you want to open a doggy day care and you’re looking for a location that you can do that in that doesn’t offend anybody. If this was in a retail business, it would offend people. If it was in a neighborhood, it would offend people. You’re doing it in an industrial area and I think that you’re minimizing the people you affect. There are a few houses there that may or may not be affected by this. If they are affected by it, it may become a hardship for you then because you’ll have someone all over you trying to keep the dogs quiet, keep that business running right so you’re not interfering with people’s lives. With all that, there’s a lot of risk as well. You’ve got a five year lease here, your property owner is taking a risk that you’re going to run a business and be successful. You’re starting a venture business that you really haven’t done before. There’s a lot of risk there and when I hear you say how you’re going to run your business and what you’re going to do and pick up the dog mess outside, I got to believe you’re going to do that and I got to believe you’re not putting those dogs outdoors in the morning, not put them outdoors at night because if you don’t, you’ll have the risk of running a poor business and you won’t last. So, I buy what you’re saying. I buy that you’ve got some hardship and I’ll support your Petition. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I’ll also be in support and probably for a lot of the same reasons Mr. Caramagno gave. I do think that this is a unique business and I do agree with what the Petitioner said that when these areas, industrial areas were developed and these zonings were made, this type of business didn’t exist. I mean, it’s fairly new now that people and I always smile when they tell me they take their dog to doggy day care, but I understand it because I have two dogs of my own. As far as the financial gain, I mean, I would hope there is a financial gain to you every business should make a profit, but I think the other financial gain is to the City itself and I think we do need to open our eyes and understand that these areas have so much vacancy and the possibilities of them all being filled again with those types of business that they were zoned for may never come back and to have a business like this I think it is compatible. It’s compatible with the businesses that are there. I think it’s compatible with the residential that’s across the street. If I made a suggestion, it would be to take that chain-link fence out and I would want a privacy fence. I mean, I would want it for the dogs and I would want it so the neighbors aren’t, you know, involved in your business. So, that’s what I would do if it were me, but I think this is a very good business to go there and I will be in support. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I think I can support this Petition. I’d feel a lot stronger about it if one of the members would have had some experience in this in the past. I understand that 33 years of business management is important, but I don’t know how much that means to the dogs. The only dogs that I really have are Nathan’s hot dogs so – I do admire the confidence that you have in taking a five year lease. I hope you understand the high rate of mortality of small business and it isn’t just now, it’s always been. So, you’re going out on a limb. I wish you the best of everything. If I couldn’t say any more, at City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 79 May 10, 2011 least you’re filling a void and for God’s sakes Livonia’s got too many of those right now so I welcome you to fill a void. So, I will definitely support the Petition. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yes, I supported last time on this Petition. As we discussed in the past, this applicant or this business has no application or zoning in the City anywhere, commercial, residential, industrial. It doesn’t fit anything. So, I really believe that this fits fairly well in this building. Also, we’ve already approved one similar to this on Stark Road so I see no reason why not to approve this. Henzi: I, too, will support. Much like last time, you know, in general I will say that I am in favor of this and like Toni said tool and die shops aren’t coming back. These are the types of businesses that I think are going to be used to in fill vacant buildings. I think it is an appropriate use and it’s a good building that suits the Petitioners needs. My concern last time was the noise factor because I took very seriously Mr. O’Neil’s comments on for that strip of residential across the street and I just didn’t find any noise problems. I don’t think that this use is going to be any worse than the other buildings. And, in fact, I don’t think there will be any noise problem if the dogs are in the inside and they’re only going to be outside limited hours of the day and not past 5:00 o’clock. So, I would suggest a few conditions on ones who abide by the animal – by Livonia’s Animal Control Requirements and Inspection Department requirements set forth in March 30, 2011 letters that the company abide by its operation standards letters dated March 24, 2011. That it is limited to this Petitioner, that the dogs are limited to 75 in number which I think is something that the Petitioners talked about last time and that there’s a privacy fence of similar height to what exists now to replace what exists with the slats. So, the floor is open for a motion and you need five votes for this. Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I just want to go back to what you said though before I attempt this. You said the March 30th letter from the Inspection Department. Henzi: Yes. Aloe: You want to abide by that. Henzi: Yes. Aloe: And what was the other one you referred to? Henzi: There’s a – in front of that one there’s Animal Control, it’s time stamped. Aloe: Okay. So, those are the two -- Henzi: March 30th and it’s got like four bullet points. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 79 May 10, 2011 Aloe: Yes. Henzi: Following their review. Aloe: Okay. Those two then, right? Henzi: Yes. Upon Motion by Aloe, supported by Pastor: RESOLVED APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-04-15: Newburg Industrial Group, 27750 Stansbury, Suite 200, Farmington Hills, MI 48334, on behalf of Lessee Jani L. Platz, 45220 Danbury Road, Canton, MI 48188, seeking to operate an animal day care business with outdoor exercise area where such use is not allowed within an industrial zoned district. The property is located on the north side of Amrhein (37666) between Newburg and Richfield Court, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. That the uniqueness requirement is met because there is no zoning for this type of business in Livonia. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because this is a fairly new type of business that did not exist when zoning laws were made and without this variance there would be an extreme hardship for such a business to be established. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because this business is truly compatible with the neighborhood. 4. The Board received three (3) letters of approval and no letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Industrial” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the Petitioner meet the requirements outlined in the March 30, 2011 letter from the Inspection Department. 2. That the Petitioner meet the requirements outlined in the letter of March 30, 2011 from Animal Control. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 79 May 10, 2011 3. That the Petitioner adhere to the exact outline and description of their business plans labeled “Canine Fun Camp (dated March 24, 2011) and “Canine Fun Camp Pet Waste Handling Plan” and as presented to the Board. 4. That this variance be restricted to this business owner only. 5. That Petitioner replace the chain-link fence with a vinyl fence consistent in height with the existing fence. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Aloe, Pastor, Caramagno, Moran, Sills, Henzi NAYS: Harb Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: Is there a way that we could say that this is good for five year so that we could revisit this to see if this is a bad use of property, you know, we could have something to go by. Fisher: Mr. Chair, if I may. Jackie has a stack of these temporary variances that it’s almost impossible to keep track of. For heaven sake, please no more, no more, please. Aloe: And I would agree because if they’re not complying with the Building Inspection and the Animal Control, they will take care of that and that it’s restricted to this business owner only is so -- Harb: That’s fine. Mike, how do you really feel about this? Fisher: Please. Aloe: One other thing that I would like to see them put a 6-ft. vinyl privacy fence across the area that right now has the chain-link fence. Pastor: I support that. Henzi: I just want to say one thing for the record and that is that the company’s outline for operations was amended orally by the Petitioners last time with respect the dogs are not going to be allowed out after five; is that what you meant? Moran: Is this incorporated; these two pages? Henzi: Yes. Sills: That’s the reason you didn’t hear any noise. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 79 May 10, 2011 Henzi: Yes. Sills: Matt? Henzi: What? Sills: That’s the reason you didn’t hear any noise because you were there at 6:30. Moran: Matt, what’s incorporated, please, this one? There are three documents incorporated? Henzi: Right. Moran: Okay. I had heard you say two. Henzi: Animal Control, Inspection Department and then Toni’s outline which is -- Moran: As modified eight to five for outside? Henzi: Right. Aloe: I agree. Petitioner Hill: Can I ask her something about her comment about the fence? My only concern is with slope there I don’t know how easy it is going to be to put a vinyl fence in there that will go all the way to the ground. Would it have to be vinyl or could it be a wood privacy fence? Aloe: We hate wood don’t say that. Petitioner: Platz: We do, too. Henzi: You need to talk to the last Petitioner because he apparently has all the tools to fix vinyl fences. Petitioner Hill: Well, just with the slope of it. I’m not concerned that, you know, I like vinyl, too, but I’m just concerned with -- Petitioner Platz: We’re using vinyl all inside. Petitioner Hill: Yeah, with the salt I’m just concerned how it would be enclosed. I mean we can work with whatever your requirements are. Aloe: You know we always say vinyl because of the maintenance and how it looks after a while and that’s why we’re always looking for vinyl. Petitioner Hill: We’ll make it work. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Platz: We’ll make it work. Petitioner Hill: We’ll come up with something. Aloe: I’m not trying to create a problem. Petitioner Hill: Oh, no, I just wanted to clarify that point, but we’ll make it work. Moran: Toni said a 6-ft. privacy fence, but you’ve suggested something at least as high as what’s there now and that’s well over six feet. Pastor: Equal to what’s there. Moran: It’s about 10. Henzi: Yeah, yeah, to me it looked a lot higher. Petitioner Hill: It’s an 8-ft. fence what’s there now. Henzi: On -- Pastor: Would you prefer the 8-ft. or would you prefer the 6-ft. Harb: We’re not doing an 8-ft. Henzi: Yeah, that’s – yeah -- Pastor: Yeah, that’s true. Henzi: Yeah, you know, when I said that if an 8-ft. vinyl then might be a safety issue. Pastor: Right. Moran: Just pointing out the inconsistency. Aloe: Those dogs climb 6-ft. fences? Petitioner Hill: No, and especially the vinyl because there’s no -- Aloe: Nothing to grab on to, yeah. I think 6-ft. is more in – even though it’s an industrial area I mean as far as the residential across the street, it’s not going to be some -- Henzi: Yeah, okay. Aloe: Okay. Fisher: If I may, the business plan that we’re incorporating is this thing dated 3/24/2011 that says Canine Fun Camp -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 79 May 10, 2011 Henzi: Right. Fisher: Okay, thank you. Moran: I think there’s another page behind it; isn’t there? Pastor: Yes. Henzi: Yes, there is more than one page. Moran: Is Jackie going to be able to keep track of all those items? Fisher: She doesn’t have to keep track of that, that will be the Inspection guys. Henzi: Anything else? Please call the roll. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Aloe, Pastor, Caramagno, Moran, Sills, Henzi NAYS: Harb Henzi: The variance is granted. Do you want me to read the conditions again? Petitioner Platz: No. Petitioner Hill: No. Henzi: You’re good. All right. Good luck to you. Petitioner Hill: Thank you very much. Petitioner Platz: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 79 May 10, 2011 (8:31 #1/2891) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-04-17: Amani Al-Zawawi, 10165 Laurel, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to operate a group day care home for up to twelve minor children, which requires approval of the Zoning Board of Appeals. The property is located on the west side of Laurel (10165) between Plymouth and Pinetree. Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add to this case? Podina: No, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Podina? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I believe this property and the property next door had fence on fence. Has anything been cited about that? Podina: I looked up pretty much everything on both properties before I came down here and I didn’t see anything. Pastor: There’s a privacy fence – Moran: I saw a double fence to the north. Pastor: -- there’s a fence on fence on both this property and the property south of this. Podina: I’ll make note of that. Henzi: You said to the north, right? Pastor: No, this property and the property to the south. Moran: I thought I noticed it to the north, Craig. Pastor: It may have been. Caramagno: For sure to the north. Moran: Yeah. Pastor: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 79 May 10, 2011 Caramagno: And it’s backwards. Pastor: Right. Caramagno: Good side in. Henzi: Okay. Podina: I’ll have to look into that. Caramagno: Can they come up? Henzi: Come on up to the table, Petitioners. Good evening. Petitioner Mr. Zawawi: Good evening. She’s Amani Al-Zawawi. I’m her interpreter. I’m her husband. Henzi: Can you tell us your names and addresses, please? Petitioner Mr. Zawawi: Yes, her name is Amani Al-Zawawi, 10165 Laurel Street, Livonia, Michigan 48150 and my name is Baher El-said, I’m her husband. I live at the same address 10165 Laurel Street, Livonia, Michigan 48150. Henzi: Okay. Why don’t you tell us why you want to operate a group day care? Petitioner Mrs. Zawawi: I would like to make – to spend my time with kids and I would like to make, you know, business for them to support us and – this is the best thing to do and to keep my kids with me. I have one year’s old and a half and another one, he’s three and a half also. So, I have four kids, but three in the school and part time, two part time and half a day I mean and one full day and one still young. So, this is the best thing to do for me right now to do this business. I can’t stay without doing anything so I spend like the years hoping to do something so I have the third kid and when I go to the college at the end of the semester I found I’m pregnancy month again which is the fourth one. So, now I want to do something so this is the best thing for me to do this business and I like kids. I love to spend my time with them. Henzi: Okay. Can you tell us whether you care for children other than from within your family now? Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: What do you mean – say again. Henzi: Well, you said that you have four kids. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Right. Henzi: Of your own. Do you care for other peoples’ kids? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: My kids in the school. I have one, he’s one and a half and I had a lady, she’s my friend, she brought her two kids, but she got laid off now. She said when she finds a job, she will come back because she likes – her kids like my kids and I don’t know. Henzi: Okay. So, how many kids do you envision caring for? Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: I should – I’m eligible four to six, but I prefer, you know, I would like to make hopefully I’m advertising to make like 12 kids and, you know, to make a business, you know, to do something. So, I like to play with the kids and read the stories and these things, you know. Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioners? Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Will you have someone else helping you if you have -- Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Right now I don’t have that much kids, but in the future yes I have two friends they would like to volunteer with me, but I’m telling them when I advertise I have people come to – they need a job, but I’m looking for customers not for, you know, employees. So, I have to -- Aloe: So, how many children do you feel that you could take care of by yourself then before you have the add – Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Before I add? Me and my husband, me and him we can take care of 12, yes. He can handle six and me six. Aloe: Oh, so it will be the two of you full time taking care of six children. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yes and I have my older son is 18 years old. He’s – when he has it when the vacation, I prefer to let him work with us not to go outside. If we have 12 kids full capacity, you know. So, we will work the three of us with this side. Aloe: Can I ask you do either of you have educational degrees or any -- Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yes, I do, I do. Aloe -- in childcare? Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: I have a computer science degree, Bachelor Degree. I have diploma in pharmacist, but I have four kids. I can’t go outside so my husband he has two degrees also. Aloe: In child care? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: In Public Administration. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yeah. Aloe: I’m sorry. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: In Public Administration. Aloe: I see. Okay. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: I have a Master’s in Public Administration and a Master’s in Political Science. Actually can I add something to what she started? Her business plans started by our middle child when he reached three years old and we applied for the pre-school at Clarenceville , but since he knew most of the things that our – that his elder sister taught him, he was denied. So, he has to stay home. So, she started thinking if he has to stay home for at least one and a half year and we have another child who’s one and a half year at that point would it be better for their health and for their psychology to get some children to play with at home since we have this kind of vast variety and big back yard which is one and a half acre to help other kids and help our kids on the same time. And it was a better way as she mentioned before to spend her time and we started attending classes with United Ways and we have at the end like almost 30 credit hours in child care at that point and we’re still going and at that point because we enjoyed it – both of us enjoyed it. And she – her plan also consists of – I advised her first to go first with six, but she started going with 12 and having two assistants helping us on the same time. So, her plan involves me, her and two other assistants which we will have on the run if we have 12 children enrolled in the child day care. Aloe: But you will both be there full time? Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yes. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Yes, both of us will be there. Aloe: So, you don’t go to another job then. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: I’m working part time nowadays but – Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: He’s looking to continue education in university so it’s best thing to do to work this job-- Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: I’m working part time. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: And he’s working – yeah. He’s looking for that I mean. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: But if this happens I’ll just take the chance and work full time in our project. It’s better to do it. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: That’s right. Aloe: Okay. Mike, do they have to meet all the State requirements. I’ve forgotten now between the two of them – the day care and group care. Fisher: Well, according to this they already have a provider number from DHS for six kids or fewer. Aloe: So, what do they have to do for more than six kids? Fisher: Well, I don’t know what the State requirements there are, but one obvious requirement is that they meet all these things we have in our applications. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Yeah, since we – yeah, can I add something? Fisher: Go ahead. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: We are applying to get the State license which is more than the provider number and one of the parts is to go through the Zoning if we wanted to have 12. And instead of going for the license for six, we said let’s go for one time for the 12 and start our project and at that point we will have the license and the capacity to take 12 kids whenever they’re available. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Mr. Fisher, when we talk about all these kids, do they include their own kids in this number or is that separate from – this is to Mr. Fisher. When we approve something like this, say we approve this for 12 kids. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: They should include. Pastor: Are their own kids included in this, or is it -- Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: They should be included to the limit according to the State regulation each adult has to take care of three kids. So, our kids must be included among those with this adult. Fisher: It’s always been my understanding before when we’ve had these cases it’s not unusual for people to say, you know, I’m in this business because I have kids this age. Those count against -- Pastor: The number. Fisher: -- the number that you’re allowed. Pastor: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 79 May 10, 2011 Henzi: Craig, that sounds familiar to me because I remember the argument somebody would say what if I had six kids or the folks that lived in this house 30 years ago had six kids so what’s the difference. That makes me think that that is the rule. Pastor: Okay. I couldn’t remember. Henzi: Any other questions? Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I wanted to go through this list. It seems to me that Laurel your area is a pretty quiet right now. One of the requirements is that the entire play space be fenced in the back yard. What do you know about the double fence that’s back there? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Actually we came to live in this building in 2008 and there was already a problem between two of the neighbors about double fence and one of them has already made that. I think it’s a neighbor not next to us it next to the next to us and it’s on Pinetree north on Laurel. And I don’t see anything wrong because it’s a vinyl fence, it’s well built and the only thing that I can see that might be of concern is that they have a puppy that sometimes tries to crawl underneath the fence but at the moment I have never seen that puppy in our backyard. Harb: So your backyard is not doubled fenced at all? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Our backyard, our backyard is now – we’re trying to do, we’re trying to do a privacy fence. We’re trying to find a contractor and we’re working on having a privacy fence which goes like 6-ft. around the entire house. Harb: What do you have now? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: We used to have like a four, 4-ft. Harb: 4-ft. cyclone? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Yeah, wired. So, now we’re trying to build a 6-ft. privacy fence for our own privacy and for also the protection of our neighbors. They won’t be distracted by the noise. Harb: What would you want the hours to be? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: What do you want the hours to be exactly? Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Right now because I don’t have enough customers I would like it to open like seven days a week any time. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: No, no. I think according to the brochures that she has and everything else it goes from eight in the morning until seven. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: No, but I would like to make it like that until I have customers so I have to, you know – Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: But that would disturb the neighbors. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: No, no, but at home, at home. Harb: You’re not going to have after 10 o’clock at night drop offs. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: If they would like, I mean, if she’s a nurse and she don’t – because I see some people like that. She’s a nurse and she’s work at night, you know, and they would like to put their kids – I’m not sure. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: I don’t think after 10 because we need our kids to sleep also. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Okay. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: I don’t think anybody would be there at 10 or even nine, or even eight. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yes. Harb: All right, so I don’t think there’s an issue with drop off and pick up area because you do have a pretty long driveway. I don’t think there’s going to be any noise violations not any more than 75 dogs. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Actually the noise might be the dogs from next doors. Harb: And the play space would have to be fenced according to the City and I’m sure that you guys are going to be doing the inspections. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I’m looking at question number 15 on this application. It says: “Have you registered with a 9-1-1 dispatch center?” And you answer no. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: What’s that? Aloe: Number 15, a question on here. It says: “Have you registered with a 9-1-1 dispatch center in the City of Livonia Public Safety.” And your answer is no. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: We didn’t register? Aloe: Well, you’re saying, no. It’s asking you did you and you’re saying, no, you didn’t. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Of course, some phone companies don’t, but I’m sure Bright House did register. You mean our phone number, right? Aloe: No, the question says, it says: “Have you registered with a 9-1-1 dispatch center and the City of Livonia Public Safety Department.” And you answered, no. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: So, how can we register? Fisher: You go to the police department. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: She already did – she did the fingerprints. Aloe: Is that what that is? Fisher: So, I don’t know. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: If that’s the procedure, that’s the only thing that was required in the State form. Aloe: Where is the 9-1-1 Dispatch Center, is that with the City? Fisher: Yes, that’s the police department. All this is designed to have you register with the police department. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yeah, I went and I had fingerprints. It’s one of the things for the license I have to do fingerprints. Aloe: Yeah, I don’t think that’s the same thing for your license. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: We can follow up on this procedure. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yeah, we can do it. Fisher: Okay. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: But it’s either the phone number that’s registered or -- Aloe: I don’t think that’s it either. I think you need to go to the police department and register with the 9-1-1 dispatch center. That’s what I think it says. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: We can ask for it. We can have -- Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: 9-1-1, the police department. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yeah. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: We can do it. We can go and do that. Aloe: Okay. One other question, how many square feet is your house? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: It’s 1,500. Aloe: Thank you. Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Can I get some clarification here? First of all, there are six people in your home, you two, an adult son who is 18, and three other younger children? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Yes. Moran: So, the adult son I wouldn’t think would count, but we still have six people in the home. Now, how does the process work here, Mike or John, I mean, first of all, the chicken and egg problem one of the things we have to find is if they have a State license, but they said they have to be approved so I guess it would be subject to getting the State license, but does the State come in and inspect if they think the home is adequate for 12? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Yes, they will. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: After zoning – we have to do first zoning and we would send the application -- Fisher: The State definitely inspects the houses for daycares. Moran: So, we can rely on their expertise, I guess, because what you’ve submitted this evening – first of all, I calculate your house to be 1,320 square feet based on what I have in front of me. You submitted some sort of drawing, as best I can tell, is this the front section of your house? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Yes. Moran: Is that where the day care will be housed? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Yes, she’s trying to -- Moran: That’s only about 440 square feet. You’re going to put essentially 12 children in there, I guess that’s up to the State, I have no comment as to whether or not that would be adequate. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: There’d be four in one room. Moran: Pardon me? Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: It’d be four children in one room. There are three rooms. Moran: I leave that to the State. When we finish, as you see, part of the process here is to make some comments in closing and after you hear the letters there’s not much neighbor support. I’d like you to speak to that after you hear the letters. Thank you. Henzi: I’m not sure I understand the process. Has your home been inspected by the State for approval? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: It’s going to be inspected -- Henzi: It’s going to be. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: It’s going to be inspected as part of the process. Once we submit the Zoning, if we got approval from the Zoning Department to submit the papers and they send inspectors to inspect every single aspect including the kitchen, the bathroom, everything. Henzi: But has your home been inspected once before to the six children designation? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: No, it hasn’t been inspected. Henzi: Has not. You’ve got a provider number. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: The provider number no. The provider number it hasn’t been inspected. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: For the provider number, no, they give it to us. Henzi: That’s just a number? Okay. It doesn’t mean that you’re approved. It’s not a license number; is it? Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: It’s not a license number. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: It’s for the unlicensed -- Henzi: Okay. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: -- provider. Henzi: No, I understand. Are there any other questions? Hearing none are there any persons in the audience who want to speak for or against this project; is so, come on up to the table. I see no one coming forward. Can you read the letters, please? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 79 May 10, 2011 Caramagno: Yes, we have a letter from Paul Glusak [10320 Laurel Street]. He sends an objection (letter read). We have a letter from James Johnstone [34745 Pinetree](letter of objection read). An objection from John Larese [10376 Wayne Road](letter of objection read). This is an objection from Janet R. Rose [10321 Laurel](letter read). Henzi: Is there anything you would like to say in response to these objections? We can take time Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: There is no aluminum foil on the front window. There is a film on the front window so that we can see, but the outside cannot see what’s in there and we can remove that. It’s very easy to remove. So, I want to clarify this that’s inaccurate information. Second, it’s for the neighbor who has mentioned there’s a bus stop in the morning. The bus stop is like 200 feet away from the home so it’s not that dangerous at all to have the traffic going in our driveway. And for using Pinetree to drive through it has been already dangerous. It’s already dangerous since they removed the stop sign and I think some of the neighbors are trying to collect petitions to return the stop signs back. At that point, it’s not going to add or cancel this kind of situation that has already been there since they removed the stop signs. And for, I don’t know about vandalism or crime rates increasing from a day care I haven’t heard about any kind of correlation or scientific evidence that shows that the reaction of a day care inside a neighborhood would increase the vandalism or home ruining. I’m just seeing that somebody who interrupted in saying anything that is irrelevant to any kind of even common logic. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: We have a long driveway it counts more than 12 cars, but anyway if we will have it just 12 kids, you know, it’s just two family or three families to have. Sometimes one family has six kids so it’s just two cars. The people who are writing these things, you know, just to let me not work and they are getting laid off. I knew that lady she just got laid off from – I know it last week and it’s not my problem. It’s the economy and most of the people are now not working so it’s my project and I want to do it. If she got the idea from me and she will do it for herself it’s not working. I don’t believe that. No. I think it is a good project for all young kids to learn and because they schools they are giving a short, you know, many complicating things. My son is three years old and I can’t put him in the school. I made the school for him in my house. I put alphabet, colors, shapes, everything. I want my son to learn because he has to play with kids. He’s three years old. What’s wrong with that? I don’t believe it. I think it’s good for the kids to play together. It’s a house, big house. Why I should stay with the house alone. I don’t know. My kids they like to play with the others and because of my cars doesn’t matter. I’m a mom. I am a mom. I have four kids. Young kids they want to play with someone. They should play. They love the people. I love the people. It’s not a problem at all. I don’t know. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Moran. Moran: My concern in making my decision isn’t necessarily foil on the window. Condition of the property as we touched on earlier, I think that will be determined by the State whether it’s suitable. I agree with the Petitioner’s rebuttal on the vandalism City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 79 May 10, 2011 comment I think that’s way out of bounds. I can’t imagine any concern there. And with respect to how many children people can have in a home, we can’t limit – to my knowledge how many children are in a home, how many children people chose to have. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Can I say just one thing? Moran: Not now. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: I’m sorry. Moran: But we can limit and we must responsibly limit the number of children that are in a cared for in a home on a fee basis. My concern here looking at the requirements I’m relying heavily on the State’s expertise, but there’s no neighbor support. Effectively we’re putting a business in a neighborhood, a neighborhood with a very narrow street. A very long driveway that is nearly going to require a traffic policeman to have the traffic go in and out of there. I look at when this business grows to nine people from the outside utilizing the three children that the Petitioners have there will be additional traffic. I’m not going to support the full maximum. I’m not going to go from no children cared for to nine being introduced along with the needed caregivers and three adults in the home. I just think that’s an intrusion on the neighbors and I would support something less because much like we talked about with industrial area, it’s a changing times, people have a need for this, people want it. I’m very sympathetic and it may not even apply in the strictest sense tonight, but I’m very sympathetic to people trying to stay home with their children or people unable to find work in trying to create income for themselves. I just think this is excessive to go from nothing to nine from outside with the lack of neighbor support and the relatively small property. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, you certainly have a lack of neighbor support and that is an issue. I personally have other issues there. I see double fencing, the house appears small to me for that kind of crowd. The State hasn’t licensed you, and I understand they don’t want to until you come through this process, but on the other side I don’t want to say yes to you without the State saying yeah, it’s reasonable to have that many people in that home. That’s some of the problem I’ve got and the reason I say this is when I went by today I see the gate randomly left open for really no apparent reason. I see a ladder just sitting in the yard with nobody using it and I picture kids running around that house, you know, outdoors playing and if there’s no care for leaving a ladder in the middle of your driveway for no apparent reason, what is the care – how is that care going to change going forward when you’ve got children that are being paid to take care of there? Those are some of the things I think the State is going to be interested in or concerned with. And that’s where I’ve got most of my problem with. Just as another note, I forgot to ask this question or make a statement to you; I can’t even find the address on your home. How is someone to drop off children at your home and you don’t even have an address on your mailbox or home? That to me is a very, very lax organization and again I see if the State doesn’t have a problem with that, I certainly do so I will not support it tonight. I think you’ve got a ways to go before you get my support. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 79 May 10, 2011 Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I’m going to have to agree with the comments made by Mr. Moran and Mr. Caramagno. I just can’t see 12 children being cared for in this property and even looking at this plan of room and I see this little attachment on here, a future bathroom, I just don’t think this home is and this property is made for 12 children. Six children, I probably would be able to support it, but to go up to 12 children I just wouldn’t feel comfortable. I don’t think the property supports it and then the second thing is the lack of neighbor support. So, I will not be in favor of it. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I will not be in support of this Petition. I feel the home is too small, the street is too narrow. There certainly isn’t any support from the neighbors. I feel that we owe something to people that have lived there for more than two or three years and I just will not support this Petition. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, I don’t think I can support this Petition either. As I drove by the property today I did notice what appeared to be foil on the window that kind of threw me off a little bit. In the past we have had other centers like this come up and they’ve already had their license for six kids and they were already approved for that and then they came to us and said we have a need for more children. We have a business plan. We have these hours. It’s going to be run this way and by the way, the State already came by and said they think it’s going to be a green light. We have none of that right now. I don’t even think the State has been there for a six children day care. So, until I get a little more information I just don’t feel comfortable with this and I don’t believe I can support it. As Toni said, I can support maybe six. Get your feet wet, find out if you like it or not. I know you think you do, to run a business is a lot different than having a bunch of kids at your house. So, I would offer a tabling motion if that would make you feel better, but I can’t support this as it is today. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I could support this and the Petitioner – the way I see it, the Petitioner could have up to six kids without any approval whatsoever plus their four, they’re going to have 10 kids there anyway. So basically that’s how I read it. They met basically all the requirements from the day care resolution sheet. I think that the Petitioners are well educated. I think they would do a good job in teaching their children. I think that would be an added value to the neighborhood and I would rather say okay you can have up to 12, I mean including your four kids, then you’re only talking about two extra people. So, that’s the way I see it. Henzi: I have a question to you or to Mike, I guess, because you raise an interesting point about the fact that they don’t need approval if they wanted a family day care which would be six as long as it’s not within 1,000 feet of another family day care; right, isn’t that how it is? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 79 May 10, 2011 Fisher: Right. Henzi: So assuming – isn’t that what you meant, Ken, assuming that they’re not within 1,000 feet they don’t even need us to operate a family day care? Harb: Well, it shows that there is none within 1,000 feet. Henzi: Right. Fisher: Right. And the only approval they need at that point would be the State approval. They wouldn’t need the Board’s approval. Henzi: Right. Okay. I have to agree with Mr. Pastor. I think the Petitioners are highly- educated people. I think they will operate a fine day care home, but the difference between this case and other cases that I’ve seen is that in houses this size or bigger, there’s usually a finished basement that is like a classroom and there’s areas upstairs that are designed as additional play areas. And I don’t mean to micromanage the way that they run their home or the way that they are going to run the business, but I would like to see a six kid family day care home. I don’t think that the 18 year old son counts against them. In fact, I think that they would wind up using the 18 year old son as one of their assistants to work the numbers that way and then they would have three kids from the outside plus their three kids under 18. I’d rather see that and then have them get the inspection from the State for 12 kids and come back to us before we go from zero to nine from the outside. I think the size of the yard is great. I mean this is a huge yard. There’s no doubt about it, but all I can go by is comparing this Petition to prior petitions and the size of the home just doesn’t compare with respect to other group day care home applications that I can recall. And so for that reason, I would deny which would allow them to have a family day care. So, the floor is open for a motion. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: But we want to do something. Me and my husband want to do a business. I mean if it’s six kids only, you know, we have the approval from the VHS for six kids, but we can’t do – there’s a lot of complicated things so for that I thought about 12 kids and I have my husband and my son to help us. Every four kids in one room, you know, these neighbors they have more than 12 people in the house. We never complain. We never say a word about – everyday they have, you know – their voices are out and many people – this is so much – you can go see how much noise outside. We never complain. How many people inside, how many people outside. Henzi: Let me be specific because I have closed the public portion of the case. I know that this is the only Petition that you’ve ever brought before this Board and to you it is the most important petition. To us it is the most important right now, but you’re not the only petition that we’ve seen like this and when I compared you to other petitions, I’m talking about other families that came to us and had more credentials. They had kids lined up. They had a basement finished that was a classroom. They already had the licensing. You don’t have any of those things. I like you, I like your backyard, I don’t think the house is big enough. I want to see the State go back in there. Those are the types of things that I’m talking about. I’m not saying or I’m not asking you to compare you to your neighbors who might have more kids, I’m comparing you to the more City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 79 May 10, 2011 polished, experienced folks who have come before us asking for what is a significant variance. One that was hotly contested in our city for a number of years and only exists, the possibility only exists because of significant comprises between our legislative body and the city of Livonia. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: So you mean I have to go with six, a group of six then I will go to a group of 12; is this what you mean? Henzi: That’s my opinion and that was the opinion of probably one other Board member. As you heard, you don’t need the approval from this Board to operate a family day care which is six kids, three from outside plus three for your own. Or if your kids were in school, you’d have six from the outside until your kids came home. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: I do have my kids in the school, three. I just have one at home, the young one. So, it’s up to 12, I mean, we don’t know how many kids they will come to register, you know, but I want the capability to be to 12. So, it doesn’t mean that I will have 12 kids at once and not 12 cars. Henzi: We understand that. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yeah. Henzi: Everyone has driven by your house. Everyone has read your packet. We fully understand. Is there any other questions or comments? The floor is open for a motion. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Can I say something? Henzi: Sure. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: The names of the neighbors that were mentioned not the exact neighbors next to us. It was neighbors like, I think like, one block or two blocks away and I didn’t see any serious concern about noise from the day care or from the way the day care is operated except from him who mentioned that he saw kids running in the front yard at one point. And our concern is that the process is too tedious and if it got impeded at the beginning and if she got frustrated at the beginning she won’t be able to proceed her project in the future. I would like to have one open window at least for this project to see the light and any other – any comments that we can put into notation we can carefully take it and consider it especially as we said we are just in the initiating phase. We are waiting for the State inspection, the State licensing and then we’ll start the project. So, is there a window that we can open at least for a project to start in this kind of economy that’s starting to see the light and how can we do it is my question for everybody. Moran: Well, I think you have a couple of options. As I understand it, you could go ahead and start your business with up to six people is called a family day care. So, that would allow you to start. I also believe you could go to the State and see if they would license you for the group day care up to 12. If you had that license, only speaking for myself, but I think that would be a little more convincing or persuasive for the rest of the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 79 May 10, 2011 group they would have to take a fresh look at it. They may still have similar issues, I may still have the same issue, but I think that would be the window or the process that you could go through. I, like Mr. Pastor said earlier, I think we could offer a tabling resolution, give them an opportunity to represent if they ever so chose or to not come back it doesn’t matter to us. I don’t see where a denying resolution is needed. Aloe: How long does a tabling resolution sit there though? How much time do they have to come back? Moran: I don’t think it really matters. If they’re not in business – it’s not like the case that you may be thinking of where the offense was there. Aloe: No, I know, yeah, you’re right. Yes, I just wondered how long did -- Moran: If they chose, it can be in perpetuity. If they chose to never come back, then it doesn’t matter. Aloe: Okay. So, it never expires. Harb: Mr. Chair. Moran: I mean my view point. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: So, we do a denying resolution that may mean they can never come back and have a group day care, but if we table it, there’s that window that they may be able to come back, you know, right now they can have their six and they may be able to come back. Henzi: I think that would be fairer. I’d go along with that. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Thank you very much. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Harb, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-04-17: Amani Al-Zawawi, 10165 Laurel, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to operate a group day care home for up to twelve minor children, which requires approval of the Zoning Board of Appeals. The property is located on the west side of Laurel (10165) between Plymouth and Pinetree, be tabled to allow Petitioners an opportunity to run a family a day care home for a short period of time and to allow the State to approve them for a larger operation. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 79 May 10, 2011 ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Harb, Aloe, Caramagno, Moran, Sills, Henzi NAYS: None Henzi: So, this was tabled which means you have the opportunity to come back. You don’t have to pay to reschedule. When you want to be rescheduled, you call the Zoning Board office and talk to Jackie to pick a date and just take into account the options that Mr. Moran laid out for you and the comments that Mr. Harb made at the end about what you could do from here. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Thank you very much. I really appreciate this opportunity and can I ask for something more to help us more. If we can get copies if that’s no big deal of the letters so that we can address the fears of our neighbors, we would really appreciate that. Henzi: That’s a good idea. Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: And what I should put for the licensing now. It’s part of the licensing. Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: You’ll go through the -- Petitioner Mrs. Al-Zawawi: I should apply again? Petitioner Mr. Al-Zawawi: Yes. Thank you very much. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 79 May 10, 2011 (9:16 #1/4661) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-18: Andrew Demrovsky, Helen Demrovsky and Samuel Demrovsky, 33600 Cindy, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to erect a carport attached to an existing dwelling while maintaining a detached garage resulting in excess number of garages and garage area. Number of Garages Garage Area Allowed: One Allowed: 660 sq. ft. Proposed: Two Proposed: 748 sq. ft. Excess: One Excess: 88 sq. ft. The property is located on the north side of Cindy (33600) between Farmington and Michele. Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add to this case? Podina: No, sir. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Aloe: Mr. Chair, I have one for Mr. Fisher. Why is a carport considered a second garage? It’s open, it has a roof and I just don’t get it. Moran: Well, let me help you. You’ll know it when you see it. Aloe: I’ll know what when I see it? Moran: Mike gave me that statement on garages once. I think the Supreme Court was talking about something else. Aloe: Yes, but you always ask why is it a garage, or why is it a shed, or why is it a building. I’m asking why is a carport a garage? I mean it’s a roof. Moran: I understand. Henzi: I have the same question. Fisher: Well, I know first of all that this is consistent with what we’ve done in the past. We’ve treated carports as equivalent to garages. Aloe: I mean, if somebody wanted to extend their overhang out another 10 feet and put two poles they would support it, I don’t know why that’s called a garage. Moran: To me it’s more a kin to the uncovered or the unenclosed front porch. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 79 May 10, 2011 Aloe: Porte-cocheres, remember those porte-cocheres they would drive in. Moran: We always hear the front porches cases because of the setback. Henzi: Right. Fisher: Well, yes, the front porch or the back porch or anything else gets counted when as soon as you put a roof over it. Moran: That’s what I’m saying, this is more similar to that for me. Aloe: To me it’s not any of those things. Fisher: Right, but this is – I guess the roof over the top is the – Aloe: Qualifying ingredient then. Fisher: Yes. Aloe: Okay. Henzi: Okay. Aloe: And then I just want to ask, maybe it’s the Building Department. I drove that street and even down and there was another street, I mean I see these there. How did they get there? Harb: They didn’t have a garage, they had a shed. Aloe: Oh, no, no, no, dear, they had garages and they had carports. I counted three of them. Actually I think their next-door neighbor has one of them. Right? Henzi: Yes. Aloe: Yes. And then if you drive all the way down to where Cindy stops, I think there were two of them over there. They were carports with two-car garages in the backyard. So, how did that happen? Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I drove through the neighborhood as well and what I saw was many, carports with like a 200 square foot shed at the back of the driveway. Aloe: Some had a shed. Henzi: Yeah. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 56 of 79 May 10, 2011 Aloe: Some had a garage in the backyard and their neighbor, I believe, had a garage in the backyard. Henzi: Yeah well, along those lines, Mike, not just in this neighborhood, but I’ve seen where it’s more like lane, too, it’s just a covered canopy. Would you call that a garage, too, because it has got a roof? Fisher: Well, if it’s a temporary structure like that, we – I shouldn’t say we because I’m not in the Inspection Department, but our inspection guys tell them take that thing out of here. Henzi: Okay. But if it’s got footings and it’s not temporary, it’s permanent with a roof and you know, functions as a carport like this, it’s called a garage by the Inspection Department. Fisher: The Inspection Department, yes, we’ve had carport cases come before this Board before just like this. Henzi: Any other questions? Go ahead. Petitioner: Good evening, Your Honorable Zoning Board. My name is Samuel Demrovsky. I live at 33600 Cindy, Livonia and we’d like to get a variance to put this carport, a drive-through carport. And not only that, well there are hardships, I have an older sister and brother that really can’t shovel snow and snow is piling – this winter was just terrible. When we had two, three inches our driveway had six or plus because the wind turbulence just piled it right against the side door and in the front our address has a bus stop, school bus stop so I have to get up pretty early and clean that off. My brother, he’s got kidney problems and does use a walker quite often, not always, but a carport would really help, help out this situation. And it would look beautiful. We would put three or four columns these Greek or Roman columns like you maybe could see on the front porch that we have, two of them. These would be along the side. The structure would be a little bit prettier than what my architect drew up here real quick. It would be really appealing to the neighborhood, too, something professional not just a roof with a shack. Henzi: Is it going to be free standing or is the roof going to attach along the roof line. Petitioner: It will attach to the house. It’s going to be a hip roof or we were looking at reverse gable, but I think we were convinced that a hip roof would work better because it would tie into the existing roof easier like the front porch we have, very similar to that except this would be going across the side and again we don’t park in our driveway ever. We have a garage and we have two cars that we constantly use everyday the garage. So, none of these cars would be parked. No cars park in the front. We just put ours in the garage. Henzi: Okay. Any questions? Aloe: Mr. Chair. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 57 of 79 May 10, 2011 Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Would you take these awnings down? Petitioner: Oh, definitely, that’s gone. The awnings will not be there. They will interfere with the underside of that port because the extension – if you look at the page number one, you’ll see the downspout and it’s sort of an under – I don’t know what it’s called, but it’s underneath – it’s part of the roof line. It’s going to be either vinyl or aluminum like a garage siding on top of this structure. So these existing awnings come down. Aloe: I want to tell you you probably have one of the nicest properties I have ever gone out to inspect. It’s a beautiful style to it. Petitioner: That’s a project of my sister. She keeps that constantly – keeps me on the toes, too. Aloe: It shows, very nice. Petitioner: I gotta cut the grass twice a week. Gee. Henzi: Any other questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: This is towards the Building Department. On these posts, I’m assume we’re putting them on footings because they don’t show it on the – oh, yes, they do show it on the plan. Podina: Yes. Pastor: I’m sorry. Thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: So, the building material will be basically what, aluminum siding? There is no building material other than the roof, right? Petitioner: The aluminum siding is only on the bottom of the slope and, of course, the overhang – whatever the one foot overhang will be same as what it is now and that’s aluminum. Harb: So, the roof would be basically the same. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 58 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner: Oh, the same, yes. Harb: Same as that and the only things that we would really see are the three or the five posts? Petitioner: Three or four. I’d like to have four up there. Harb: Right, now, it’s a beautiful house. Did your neighbor put up the fence or was that you that put up the fence? Petitioner: The one that you can see is our neighbor put that up next door, Pinkerton’s. Harb: How long has that been up? Petitioner: Oh, gee, maybe 10, 12 years at least. Harb: It needed the variance. It’s a 6-ft. fence. Petitioner: We split the cost, but he got the permit. He was the chief builder on that. Harb: That fence is illegal by the way. Petitioner: Well, we didn’t pull the permit on that one. The one in the back we did pull the permit, the white fence that’s on the back of us. That was a City permit. Harb: Now, you’ve driven around the neighborhood, what do you see, do you see a lot of carports with the garages or do you see carports with -- Petitioner: I do, on Farmington. Harb: -- with little sheds in the back. Petitioner: On Farmington I see a nice carport that I really liked and that was the hip roof type although it had steel posts and I don’t like that. I’d like to have them enclosed so it would look like this either Roman or Greek posts, but -- Harb: Your uniqueness is that you can’t really use the garage because it’s too far back and it takes too much work to clean that off if you had a car next to the side door, you’re able to manage -- Petitioner: No, no, we will still use the garage for overnight parking or parking any time. This is strictly a drive through, nothing else. It will not be used to park cars for convenience or any sort. Harb: So it sounds just like someone is going to pull it back and it’s just going to be more convenience for somebody to get in while it’s not raining -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 59 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner: That’s correct. Mainly the snow, mainly the snow shoveling. That is- if you look at our roof it faces east and west and the winds when they come from west, it just curls around and I got a foot of snow on that driveway. As soon as I open that side door, there’s – without going into a – well we usually try and have shovels next to the door. Harb: Do you see any other carports with garages in your neighborhood? Petitioner: Next door to the west – oh, I’m sorry, to the east of us Pinkerton’s neighbors where you see that fence. Harb: Right. Petitioner: They have a carport and they had that for -- Harb: They didn’t get a variance for that either. Petitioner: -- twenty or 30 years. Harb: Thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project, if so, come on up to the table. I see no one coming forward, can you read the letters? Caramagno: Larry Houston at 33570 Nancy (approval letter was read). Scott and Kim Michalik at 33575 Cindy (approval letter was read). Dan Welcher at 33701 Hathaway Street (approval letter was read). Henzi: Mr. Demrovsky, is there anything you would like to say in closing? Petitioner: Well, I pray that this Board approves my variance and see our way to help us out on these nasty winters that we’re probably going to have and it will be a little easier getting around – not so much for me I’m still young a little over 39 I think. Henzi: Thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, this will be one of the easiest comments I’ll have ever on this Board. Your hardship is evident. You want to get in and out of the car safely. You don’t have an attached garage. So, I think this is a fine thing to have and the fact that you maintain your property so well, I mean, as Toni said, it’s probably one of the nicest properties in all the City of Livonia. Not only will this benefit you but it’s going to benefit your neighbors and the whole neighborhood over there so you’ve got my support. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 60 of 79 May 10, 2011 Aloe: I agree with Sam and it’s consistent. There are other ones in the neighborhood. I don’t know if, you know, if they’ve done them without pulling permits or I don’t know how they did them, but I mean not just his neighbor, but there’s others on the street that have it and I don’t consider it a garage. I know Mike says it is and I believe it but, it’s an extended roof, it’s open on three sides and, you know, I’m in support. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I’m in support also. I’m glad to hear it’s not going to support a car sitting in there - - Petitioner: No. Sills: -- as a garage would. I don’t understand why we consider this part of a garage or a garage to being with. I would be in support. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, I’m going to be in support of this. I, too, think that you do a wonderful job taking care of your property. As a matter of fact, if you need some extra work, I have a nice big lot at home you can come over and work on it any time you want, but this is consistent with the neighborhood so I’m in support. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I would like to support this as well and I don’t know whether or not we need to say, not to be enclosed, or not but, you know, like a covered porch like we always approve, but this would add value to the neighborhood I believe. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: This meets all the requirements for granting a variance so I’ll be in support and Mr. Demrovsky beautiful home and very nice package you put together. It makes this process efficient. Petitioner: Don’t forget it’s a beautiful city. We have a business here, too, you know on Plymouth Road. Henzi: There’s nothing that I can add. I, too, will support the request. So, the floor is open for a motion. Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Upon Motion by Moran, and supported by Harb, it was: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 61 of 79 May 10, 2011 RESOLVED APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-18: Andrew Demrovsky, Helen Demrovsky and Samuel Demrovsky, 33600 Cindy, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to erect a carport attached to an existing dwelling while maintaining a detached garage resulting in excess number of garages and garage area. Number of Garages Garage Area Allowed: One Allowed: 660 sq. ft. Proposed: Two Proposed: 748 sq. ft. Excess: One Excess: 88 sq. ft. The property is located on the north side of Cindy (33600) between Farmington and Michele, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because Petitioner has a detached garage which is difficult to reach during inclement weather. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because he is unable to be protected from the inclement weather. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because this structure will not be inconsistent with the existing character of the neighborhood. 4. The Board received three (3) letters of approval and no letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low-density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the carport not be enclosed and be built as presented to the Board. 2. That the carport be constructed within one year. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Moran, Harb, Aloe, Caramagno, Pastor, Sills, Henzi NAYS: None Henzi: The variance is granted with those three conditions. You have to build it as you presented. You cannot enclose it and it’s to be built within one year. Petitioner: Thank you very much Your Honorable Board. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 62 of 79 May 10, 2011 ______________________________________________________________________________ (9:35 #2/31) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-19: Mark Tweedy, 14888 Santa Anita, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a 5-ft. tall privacy fence upon a corner lot resulting in such fence being within the side yard, which is not allowed. The property is located on the east side of Sane Anita (14888) between Oakley and Five Mile Road. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Podina? Hearing none, with the Petitioners please come forward. Good evening. Petitioner: My name is Mark Tweedy. I live at 14888 Santa Anita. Henzi: Mr. Tweedy, why don’t you tell us why you want to erect a fence. Petitioner: Part of it is that our oldest son is starting to have children and we want to enclose the backyard a little bit more for safety. We’ve had issues of safety in the neighborhood with speed. That corner is like an “S” curve and people like to go very fast around it. We’ve had one light pole taken down. We’ve had two trees taken down. In the 12 years we’ve lived there, I’ve had at least 10 lawn jobs, people cutting through the yard and weaving around my truck that was parked in the driveway and cut through the front yard. We’ve had the City snow plow take out a large portion of the grass two years ago and we were just trying to expand our backyard, not to cut it in half. Henzi: Okay, any questions for the Petitioner? Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I was kind of curious why you wanted your fence to extend to the back of your garage and not stop at the back of your house, I mean, that just seemed like just such a narrow little strip there. I saw your air conditioning unit, but why did you want it to go there? Petitioner: Well, we only wanted to go like five feet. I don’t want to block off the whole side of the house because where that’s going it’s just going to be on the back of the house. It’s not going to extend across where the trees are along the side of the garage. It’s just going to be at the back of the house. Aloe: Well, it’s not the back – it’s not what I call the back of the house. Petitioner: Okay, the side of the house, yes. Aloe: Why do you want the fence to enclose that little strip right there. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 63 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner: It’s not going to. It’s only going to come off the – or the side of the house and then cut across. Aloe: So, is it only going to go to the back of the house then? Petitioner: From the back of the house which is facing that way. It’s going to come off five feet that way and then cut straight across. Aloe: Okay, but you have it going further. You have it going all the way up to the back of your -- Henzi: Here, do you want to come take a look at what we’re looking at? Aloe: This is the back – this is your house. Petitioner: Our house is facing this way. Aloe: Right. Well, why do you want it to come up here and not right to the back of your house? Petitioner: It is going to go from the back of the house out five feet. This isn’t right. Aloe: Okay. Then that’s what I was questioning. Petitioner: That yellow in the corner. Aloe: Yes, so it’s not going to be there. Petitioner: No. Aloe: It’s just going to be to the back of your house. Petitioner: Here, I got one picture I can show you. Aloe: Somebody just got a little -- Petitioner: This picture, the fence is going to go maybe a foot past this brick and go straight back that way. This is all going to be open. Aloe: Okay, good, okay. Petitioner: Do you see that? Aloe: Yes. Petitioner: You understand that. We’re just going to go right there and then straight back. That whole side will be open. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 64 of 79 May 10, 2011 Moran: What’s back here? Petitioner: It’s our neighbor’s house. Moran: There’s no fence though. Petitioner: There is a fence. Moran: Oh, there is. I didn’t remember that. Petitioner: That’s the opposite side and that’s the neighbor’s fence behind us. Moran: Where am I looking -- Petitioner: Probably right about here. Moran: Okay. Petitioner: That’s this right here, this area, and that’s our next neighbor who faces the same direction as we do, but we’re going to block that off, too, so kids aren’t cutting through there. Moran: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Mr. Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: All right, so, here’s a question. Why only five feet out and not more towards the sidewalk? Petitioner: If we go farther out, we block off our neighbor’s view of the street and we didn’t want to be inconsiderate to her. Harb: All right. You’re giving up a lot of -- Petitioner: Our house faces one way, theirs faces the other if we were to go much more her sight line gets cut off and then I think we would have had to make it on an angle to – from the end of the fence angle towards her house so her sight line is still open. Fisher: So, you’re going to create a traffic hazard here, Ken. Harb: All right. Thank you. Moran: Not when he finishes at 25 feet. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 65 of 79 May 10, 2011 Henzi: Anything else? Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project; if so, come on up. No one is coming up. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: Richard Hathaway, 14894 Santa Anita sends an approval (letter read). Paul Stratton at 14741 Taylor writes a conditional approval letter (letter read). Russell Barnes at 14801 Cavell sends an objection (letter read). Henzi: Mr. Tweedy is there anything you’d like to say. Petitioner: Well, with the 8-ft. rule there will be at least 20 feet and the last person said no, his was – from my back yard I can see into his back yard and right now he’s got two cars sitting back there. And he put up a fence, the City made him take it down and he parked two cars there and they’ve been there since. That’s why he’s complaining. His is zoned farm land back there because they use to race motorcycles back in that. There’s a track back there. And then our house was built and they lost part of their track so that’s just my opinion. Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I just wanted to clarify one thing, you know, the 10-ft. or so fence on the north side of your property, is that a 5-ft. fence is what you’re proposing? Petitioner: Yes. Harb: And we know -- Petitioner: There will be a gate there. Harb: There’s going to be a gate there, but that’s not – do we need to approve that as well, Mike, because that’s more of a front setback? Fisher: As far as I can tell from what’s been described tonight that’s pretty much all we’re down to approving because the other side, the side yard fence was put on here in error apparently. Harb: Right, so -- Aloe: No, my drawing is in error. That’s what’s wrong. Harb: Yeah, but the fence on the south side is basically starting at the rear of his house. Fisher: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying so there isn’t anything, I don’t think there’s any need for a variance for that part of the fence any more. The part of the fence on the south side that required the variance was the part that was in the side yard. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 66 of 79 May 10, 2011 Moran: Mike, I actually thought that the reason you had the variance here on the south side was because of the way this lined up with the neighbor’s home to the east that faces south which is really in that neighbor’s side yard if you extend it even though it’s on this gentleman’s property. Fisher: Right. Petitioner Mrs. Tweedy: That’s what we were told when we applied for this. Fisher: Well, it’s not the way it was written up. I don’t know what’s on the next lot. I only know what’s in front of me. Moran: It’s just a home that faces south and this would approximately as he shared earlier he didn’t want to come out further because it would obscure her sight lines, but this approximates the front of the neighbor’s home even though it extends into these folks back yard. So, that’s why I thought we had that on there as well. Fisher: Well, the way this is written up is it’s written up for a side yard fence and the only side yard fence you have left as I understand what has transpired tonight is the part on the north. Petitioner: Between where there’s already an existing fence we were just going to connect to it and put a gate through there for access. Henzi: Anything else? Anything you want to say Mr. Tweedy. Petitioner: No, I believe that’s it. Henzi: Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I’ll be in support. I think what the Petitioner is asking for is reasonable considering his lot, corner lot, want security and privacy so I will be in support. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I will be in support for the same reasons. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I’ll be in support. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: Yes, so will I. Henzi: Mr. Moran. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 67 of 79 May 10, 2011 Moran: A very reasonable request particularly with cars coming northbound on Santa Anita looking right into their backyard and I’d just like to take a moment and thank the Petitioner for putting up a 5-ft. fence instead of a six. Petitioner: And it will be vinyl. Moran: And it will be vinyl, so noted. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Yes, I see the need for the fence as well. It’s certainly a hardship people driving northbound on Santa Anita in the evening, during the day shine the lights in your yard maybe in your back window. A well put together plan I’m in support. Henzi: I agree. I, too, will approve so the floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Harb, supported by Sills, it was: RESOLVED APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-19: Mark Tweedy, 4888 Santa Anita, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a 5-ft. tall privacy fence upon a corner lot resulting in such fence being within the side yard, which is not allowed. The property is located on the east side of Sane Anita (14888) between Oakley and Five Mile Road, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the property has a unique shape facing west with the neighbor’s property facing south. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because without the fence a safety issue would exist for children and traffic and car headlights would shine into the house. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the fence will add value to the neighborhood. 4. The Board received one (1) letter of approval, one (1) letter of objection, and one (1) conditional letter from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified as “Low-density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That a 5-ft. vinyl fence be erected as presented to the Board. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 68 of 79 May 10, 2011 2. That the variance is good for one year. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Harb, Sills, Aloe, Caramagno, Moran, Pastor, Henzi NAYS: None Henzi: The variance is granted with those two conditions. You have to build it as presented and it’s good for one year which means that you’ve got one year within which to erect a fence. Petitioner Mrs. Tweedy: It’s in our garage so that won’t be a problem. Henzi: Good luck. Petitioner: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 69 of 79 May 10, 2011 ______________________________________________________________________________ (9:50 #2/907) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-20: Pat and Karen Stornant, 15225 Hillcrest, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a 6-ft. tall privacy fence within the rear yard of a double frontage lot resulting in deficient rear yard setback. Rear Yard Setback Required: 50 ft. Proposed: 34 ft. Deficient: 16 ft. The property is located on the north side of Hillcrest (15225) between Five Mile Road and the cul-de-sac. Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add? Podina: No, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Podina? Will the Petitioners please come forward and I apologize it’s so late. I didn’t notice that you had young kids so help us let us help you get out of here quickly. Petitioner: Pat and Karen Stornant, 15225 Hillcrest Court, Livonia, Michigan 48154. Henzi: Why do you want to put the fence up? Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Well, you can tell we’ve got an extra large lot. You can tell we have kids. We would like to utilize the full yard obviously because we have an extensive amount of activities that go on back there. We do have, you know, a desire to entertain and blocking the noise from Five Mile and if we, you know, if you’re not familiar with the property which I would presume you have taken a look at this property as you have the others, you will notice that we are next to Kroger and the commercial property that goes there. We have several trucks and things coming in and out – we think that the privacy fence may add to the noise reduction or help. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: We have small kids. Pastor Mr. Stornant: We have small kids, not that they are unruly, you can see that they are well behaved and -- Petitioner Mr. Stornant: They like to use every corner of the lot. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Yes, and with respect too, we have large trees on the property and someone likes to hide and I like to make sure that her hiding isn’t because she’s in between big large trees. We believe that the fence that we are going to propose aligns with the uniform look of the neighborhood which our neighbors have a vinyl sided fence already. We are building or requesting to build a quality product, low maintenance City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 70 of 79 May 10, 2011 because we don’t want unsightly features in the City as I’m sure you don’t as well. We want to spur the economy and fund some fence company within the Livonia area, spending money is a good thing and when you see neighborhoods actually making improvements, you recognize that there is at least an investment going on within the City. Obviously if you have gone past the property, it is nearing summer we will bring kids into the back yard and hopefully have a pool which they can use. We’d like to make sure that it’s safe that there aren’t other people coming in to use the pool. The fence would stop that and obviously we have onlookers from the Kroger side and the street side and we’re a modest family – don’t want to have peeping toms or whatever – not that there are, but you never know. Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: Let me ask you couple questions. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Sure. Harb: The cyclone fence on the Kroger side is that staying? Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: You know if you would approve or require Kroger to put a cement fence up, we’d be in favor of that but we don’t have any alternatives because - in front of this Board others have come for cement fences and it’s been declined every time. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Yeah, we heard in the past – we didn’t know about it as that is not necessarily our fence -- Harb: So, you want to put the fence basically even with your neighbor’s property; right, the same fence line on the north side. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Well, actually we would probably line it up with where Kroger is stopping. So, if you look at the pictures you’ll see that there’s -- Harb: All right, so they could come out a little bit further. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Kroger does. Harb: Kroger’s comes out a little bit further than your neighbor. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Correct. Harb: How many feet do you think that is? Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Ten feet exactly. Harb: Ten feet? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 71 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Yes. Harb: Okay and then you want to put basically the fence on either side of your house matching -- Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Well, we’re just going to do the back. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: We haven’t decided – we’re just going to do the back. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: And then maybe off of the back end of the house. Harb: Right, right. All right, so your neighbor has a 6-ft. with one foot lattice, why would you not want to match that? Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Well, we’re just looking for -- Harb: Theirs is beige and you want to do white? Petitioner Mr. Stornant: We’re missing – can you see we’re missing a tree here so we don’t have any privacy and we get all the cars pulling out of Kroger right there at that corner. That’s where all the cars pull out and they give it all their gas so that it’s loud, like really loud. Harb: But if you had a 6-ft. vinyl fence with the lattice on top like your neighbor, would that adversely affect you? Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Yeah, because I think we need – we’re right on 5 Mile, I mean, anything that can help with the sound because they’re not over where the cars pull out of Kroger. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: And I don’t -- Petitioner Mr. Stornant: They exit the Kroger’s right there so as soon as the cars pull out it’s like gas, it’s like – and it echo’s right into our back yard and there’s no tree there to protect it that tree died. The tree that was planted by – I don’t know who planted it, but – maybe the City. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Well, and one of the other features you can see there is a berm there and there have been people that walk in the midst of the trees. They’d actually be standing up on the berm which if the lattice is there it basically doesn’t constitute a privacy fence. Harb: Yes, right, that’s why you need to put a fence, the question is is a 6-ft. fence stockade style or a 5-ft. with a lattice and I have no idea why Kroger wasn’t required or the developer wasn’t required to do a concrete fence. You would think or – you know, that would be a very normal thing. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Sam Baki. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 72 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Developer. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: He must have connections because I don’t know how he got away with it either. That’s the only thing we can think of that -- Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: We would be in favor of a different fence but from an investment point of view you can understand that’s a lot of property line to go put a vinyl fence on and -- Harb: Well, it shows that there are two lots next to you, to the west of you, is that not the case? Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: No, one. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: There’s one and then there’s the court entrance and then there’s another guy that has right on the sidewalk, he’s got a wooden fence, a 6-ft wooden fence solid. Harb: So the lot to the west of you that faces Five Mile though right, the house? Petitioner Mr. Stornant: The house faces this way which is the same direction as Five Mile. Harb: Yes. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: So, it’s on the side of his house. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: That’s Kroger, the west of us is Kroger. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Or the east, right. Harb: I’m looking at this. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: You were just kind of going down the fence line that’s the difference so you have Kroger and you have us with no fence, then you have the lattice fence, then you have the guy with the solid wood fence 6-ft. Harb: Right. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: And I can understand why he wanted a 6-ft. solid because he wanted some – it’s more for the sound than anything else lattice wouldn’t help with the sound. Harb: Thank you. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Okay. Henzi: Any other questions? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 73 of 79 May 10, 2011 Fisher: Mr. Chair, I’m a little bit confused by one thing and that is the rear yard setback that we’re noticed for today is precisely the same as the rear yard setback for the variance that was granted to the neighbor 10 years ago. But I thought I heard that they’re not going to be the same. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: I don’t know how those numbers came to be if you’re looking at the cover sheet. Fisher: Right. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Quite honestly, I don’t – I did not give any of the dimensions so they probably copied something from a prior – and I’m not sure because we knew that from the Kroger fence to the sidewalk which is going towards Five Mile there was approximately 26-ft. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: From the sidewalk, right. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: From the sidewalk to the cyclone fence. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Yeah. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: We were aligning with the cyclone fence. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: And we have a gate proposed so that way we can get our tractor out there and out on Five Mile, too, to keep that nice, that looking good. Moran: What do we do with this small section to your neighbor to the east that’s now, you said it was 26 – the difference between -- Petitioner Mr. Stornant: That was just a little angle, just an angle to connect to their fence that’s what that is just to go straight -- Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: The company that suggested said we could go at an angle and then like a 45 degree angle off theirs and then straight back and/or come out the 10-ft. and then down. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Yes, I remember talking to the neighbors a coupe times and they said that they wished they had put – I don’t know why they did it, but they had this really big gap in here and it’s like they would have rather had fencing so they could have a bigger back yard. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Yes, they actually regret not going out the full distance that we’re at. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: So, maybe they were approved to go that far, but their fence company and maybe the cost of their fence – because they’ve got a great fence, a beautiful fence. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 74 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Or the tree. There’s the tree within that range. Moran: How about asking Kroger if you can take down the last section of theirs and bring it straight across. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Well, that piece that you’re talking about though – Moran: Or ask Sam. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: -- has a big hole in it, too. We’ve been asking them to fix it. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Yes, you can see it’s tangled up on the bottom. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: It’s all bent up. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: We’ll defer to Kroger on that one. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Nothing happens at Kroger maybe they pick up the trash once in a while. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Yes, and that would be another reason why -- Moran: Well, seriously I’m suggesting that you approach them and when you have your fence erected ask for permission to take down that last section and just have a nice clean cut off all the way across matching with your neighbor to the east, not leaving Kroger’s fence sticking out eight feet into the middle of nowhere. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Well, theirs won’t be because ours will be perfect. The way we are proposing it is that -- Moran: But the way I’m discussing if you would line up with your neighbor to the east. The way I looked at the case when I read it. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Yeah, but I don’t want to do the same mistake that our neighbor’s did, I’d rather do it the right way which maximizes our back yard without – within the approved. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: And one of the things that -- Harb: Wait, wait, Mr. Chair, I have a question for Mike. If we want to make a decision based on what the Petitioners are requesting, are we going to have to table this and to send new letters. Fisher: Yes. Harb: All right, so your choice is to accept this as it is as stated 34-ft. setback or table this and go through the process all over again. What would you prefer? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 75 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Well, I don’t know what you’re tabling, I mean – Harb: Because the letters that were sent out was based on a setback, a full setback of 34 feet. What you’re asking for is 28 feet or 26 feet -- Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: See, and I don’t understand any of those numbers. Harb: -- so, we’d have to start all over again. So, can you please tell me what you would like so we can go watch the Red Wings. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: No score after the second period. Henzi: Do you understand what’s going on then? Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Yeah, we sat here for four hours for no reason. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Or basically what they want us to do is line up with the fence and ask Kroger -- Harb: No, it’s not what we want you to do, that’s what -- Petitioner Mr. Stornant: I’m not going to do anything with Kroger. I’m going to make a fence that you guys tell us to make so who goes to Kroger, we or you guys? Harb: No, it has nothing to do with Kroger. You asked for a setback of 34 feet. This is what we have to approve. Now, if you want to change your setback, we’d have to table it. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: So, that’s fine. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: So, we’d have to be aligned to this. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: That’s fine. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: That’s fine. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Are we fine with that? Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Yes, we’re fine with that. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: So, you guys can deal with Kroger on a separate issue. We don’t want to deal with that. Trust me dealing with Kroger is like a nightmare. Moran: We don’t have to deal with Kroger. I simply made that suggestion so you’d have a nicer looking piece of property. If you’re fine with it – Petitioner Mr. Stornant: No, this will make it stand out worse and maybe you guys will get them to fix it. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 76 of 79 May 10, 2011 Moran: Then you can have it tabled and put forth the proper notice those are the choices this evening. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: No, actually I – no, I would prefer to leave the cyclone fence up because there are people that tend to cut across and that fence actually deters them from cutting the corner even further. Moran: It’s perfectly all right with me if you have a fence to nowhere. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: It’s not my fence. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: It’s not our fence – Henzi: Okay. I think we got it. By law we are required to issue a public notice. The public notice is not what you are asking for. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: No, we said we would align so we’re complying with the notice. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: We’re fine. Henzi: You’re going to shorten it? Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Yes. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Yeah, it just won’t be 50 -- Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Well, it will be based on what we have here which is to align with the fence. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: It’s fine. We’ve got – it’s a big yard. Henzi: Okay, anything else? Go ahead. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Nothing. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: So, it’s going to be straight that’s cheaper, too. Henzi: There’s nobody in the audience. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: David and Rosanne Lamb at 30526 Hoy send an approval. John and Sandra Mathey at 15222 Hillcrest Court send an approval. Fred Ransford at 15115 Spanich Court send approval (letter read). Approval from David Shamma at 30564 Hoy (letter read). An approval from Richard and Gina Siepierski at 15246 Hillcrest Court (letter read). Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Stornant, anything in closing? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 77 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mr. Stornant: No, I think they expressed it perfectly what we need. Henzi: Okay. So, we will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Sills. Sills: I think they’ve got a good case in wanting the privacy fence. It will serve as a noise barrier and also from people just walking in from Five Mile Road on to your property. I think you have good reason to ask for a privacy fence and I’ll be in support of it. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I’ll be in support. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I’ll also be in support. I just want to clarify, are you going to go white or beige like your neighbor? Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Beige like the neighbor. Harb: Okay. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Support, certainly consistent with the neighborhood. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Yes, next to a commercial property and on a main road I can see the need for the fence, so I will be in support. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I agree and I will be in support. Henzi: So, do I. The floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Harb, supported by Caramagno: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-20: Pat and Karen Stornant, 15225 Hillcrest, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a 6-ft. tall privacy fence within the rear yard of a double frontage lot resulting in deficient rear yard setback. Rear Yard Setback Required: 50 ft. Proposed: 34 ft. Deficient: 16 ft. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 78 of 79 May 10, 2011 The property is located on the north side of Hillcrest (15225) between Five Mile Road and the cul-de-sac be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because Petitioner’s property sits next to a commercial property and on Five Mile Road. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because of the openness of the rear yard to Five Mile Road creating a hazard and a safety issue for the family. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the fence would be consistent with neighboring properties and will add value to the neighborhood. 4. The Board received five (5) letters of approval and no letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because the property is classified “Low- density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance be granted with the following conditions. 1. That the fence aligns with the neighboring fence line at a 34-ft. setback and is the same color as the neighboring fence. 2. That the fence be vinyl like the neighboring fence. 3. That the five (5) day waiting requirement is waived. 4. That the variance is good for one year. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Harb, Caramagno, Aloe, Moran, Pastor, Sills, Henzi NAYS: None Henzi: The variance is granted with those three conditions. Good luck to you. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Thanks so much. So, when can we tell the guy – will he have to wait a week or to get the permit or whatever they have to do. Henzi: When do you want them to start? Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Tomorrow. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 79 of 79 May 10, 2011 Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Tomorrow. Henzi: Is there a motion to waive the five day waiting period? Harb: I motion -- Caramagno: Support. Henzi: All in favor say “Aye.” Board: “Aye.” Henzi: Opposed. We just waived the five day waiting requirement so you can get a permit tomorrow. Petitioner Mr. Stornant: Oh, thank you so much. Go Wings. Petitioner Mrs. Stornant: Thank you. Motion by Harb, seconded by Moran, to approve the minutes of April 5, 2011 ZBA meeting; Sills abstained. All were in favor. There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at 10:10 pm. ___________________________ SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary ___________________________ MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman /hdb