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HomeMy WebLinkAbout05-24-11 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 117 May 24, 2011 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING HELD MAY 24, 2011 A Special Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Fifth Floor Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, May 24, 2011. MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman Sam Caramagno, Secretary Toni Aloe Ken Harb Craig Pastor Robert Sills MEMBERS ABSENT: Terry Moran OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney John Podina, City Inspector Marcia Tomkiewicz, Court Reporter The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each Petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each Petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Six (6) Members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each Petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, Petitioners and City Departments. There were forty persons present in the audience. ______________________________________________________________________ (7:03 #1/248) APPEAL CASE NO. 2008-10-58 (Rehearing): Danielle Bagley, 34496 Wood, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking a continuation of a previous conditional use permit to operate a group day care for up to twelve minor children, which the Petitioner now seeks City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 117 May 24, 2011 permanent approval of the Zoning Board of Appeals. The property is located on the north side of Wood (34496) between Fairlane and Whitby. Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add to this case? Podina: Not at this time. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table? Petitioner: Sit down or stand? Henzi: Yeah, have a seat, please. Can you tell us your name and address? Petitioner: Danielle Bagley, 34496 Wood Street. Henzi: Ms. Bagley, we all have read the minutes from when you were here a couple years ago. Can you tell us a little bit about why you’re seeking this designation to house 12 kids? Petitioner: Well, my previous one was conditional for 2 years and I was supposed to come back. And I was told to seek a permanent one at this point. I’m still continuing to run the group home. I have the same families, but have since had more kids. So, I’ve got multiple child families now. And my traffic doesn’t – is – hasn’t been a problem at all, and two or three of the kids leave at a time in one car. So it’s just like one or two – maybe two cars at a time that come and go, so it’s not been a disturbance at all. And I haven’t had any complaints at all. And the people around me didn’t even realize I had a daycare running. So, it’s been about the same. Henzi: How many kids do you have and from how many families? Petitioner: I think I have seven or eight families, and I do have the 12 kids. One was born today, and another one is due October 4th. So, right now, I have 10. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: But once the other two come – and they’re not everyday. Like, seven or eight of them are full-time, and then the other ones are varying days. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner? Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: And I see your license expires on 6/3 of 2011. Has that been renewed? Petitioner: Not yet. She’s coming any day now to renew me. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: You said there have been no traffic issues there? Petitioner: Not at all, no. I’m on a corner lot and my driveway is all by itself. And the only traffic comes from Cass Elementary because it’s on Fairlane. So at that time of day, it’s just, you know, pretty busy then. But, as far as I go, it’s not been a problem. Caramagno: What times do you accept the children in the morning? Petitioner: The earliest now come at about 7:00-7:15. Caramagno: And what time does Cass start – they’re dropping children off? Petitioner: We actually have a bus stop on – right in my driveway, actually. That’s about 7:25-7:30. Caramagno: But that’s not for Cass. There wouldn’t – the bus stop – Petitioner: Or for Holmes, or something. I don’t know what the – Caramagno: For a junior high? Petitioner: Yeah, it’s something, but – yeah. Caramagno: And – Petitioner: Other than that, it’s – school, I think, starts at about eight o’clock, and the – they – my son gets dropped off at 4:00 in the afternoon, and my families start coming about 4:45. Caramagno: And so, pickup is later after school’s – Petitioner: Yes. Caramagno: – long out. Petitioner: After school, yeah. Caramagno: I think I had a concern last time about the traffic, and that being a major thoroughfare for – Petitioner: Yeah, it’s – Caramagno: – getting in and out of Cass School. Petitioner: Yeah, that’s Cass School. That’s the parents picking up and dropping off their kids. That’s just a – busy twice, you know, during the day – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: Right. Petitioner: – and I don’t know if that was anything to do with my traffic, but I’ve only got like two, three cars at a time coming and going. Like I have two parents that will pick up at 4:45; another one at 5:15; two at 5:30; and then sometimes, another one at 5:45. So it’s all just varying times. Caramagno: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Petitioner: There’s never like five or six cars packed in my driveway. Nobody ever parks on Fairlane. I told them not to do that. Henzi: I remember – there was some questions last time about whether folks parked on Fairlane – Petitioner: Yeah. Henzi: – or on Service Drive – Petitioner: Well, my driveway is a 3-car driveway, there’s plenty of room. And if I ever needed to, which I really haven’t had to, after two o’clock, I can park my own car in – you know, in front of the house. But, I haven’t had a problem with that at all. Henzi: But that prohibition that bars parking from 8:00 to 2:00 – Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: – for Stevenson’s students? Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: Maybe that kind of takes care of the parking issues; doesn’t it? Petitioner: Yeah, like I can, you know, move my car if I need to before eight o’clock, and then after two o’clock. But it hasn’t been an issue. I just – you know, there’s been plenty of parking for them. Petitioner: Okay. Mr. Harb. Harb: Ma’am, two years ago, we had a lot of letters of objection, and one of the main letter’s themes was the traffic issue. Petitioner: Yeah. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 117 May 24, 2011 Harb: And there’s another one today. Can you describe what it’s like? Or, you know, when people are dropping the kids off. Petitioner: Well, when the school lets out, there are buses and cars that are backed up all the way down Fairlane. And my parents miss that entirely. That’s just – I have to wait for my son everyday at 4:00 in the afternoon, waiting for him to – he gets dropped off right at my driveway because he’s special needs. Harb: Right. Petitioner: So, I see the traffic everyday, but it’s not my parents. It’s from the school. And, my parents completely miss that, and it’s just like – Harb: Where do they drop the kids off? Do they drop the kids off in the driveway by the garage? Petitioner: In the driveway. They walk through my garage. They walk themselves into my house, and give me their things and tell me how to – you know, especially any babies, if there are any problems with them. We just sort of talk for a few minutes and then they leave for work. And then in the afternoon, it’s the same thing, just sort of in and out. Harb: So they pull into the driveway, and then they back up onto – Petitioner: Onto Fairlane and – Harb: – what, Fairlane? Petitioner: – head out, yeah. So I’m not really deep into the subdivision or anything. It’s just really a nice situation where I’m at because I’m not far into the sub and I’m right on a corner. And there’s – Harb: So you’re saying at any given day, there’s seven cars that would pull up and – Petitioner: Oh, no. No, not at once. Any given day, it’s maybe two. Like, Tuesdays and Fridays are my busy days. That’s when I have – right now, I have 10 kids on Tuesdays and Fridays. Harb: But you said there were seven families. Petitioner: And Wednesday and Thursday, six and seven. Harb: That’s why I came up with – Petitioner: Yeah, it’s about seven families, but they’re part-time. Some of them are part- time and some are full. I’d have to – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 117 May 24, 2011 Harb: But they drop – Petitioner: – stop and think – Harb: – the kids off. Petitioner: – actually, how many families I have, because one family has three children right there, and the rest of them have about two. I think I have two families only that have one child right now. Harb: Thank you. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: How many cars are in your family? Petitioner: In my family, I have two. Aloe: Two cars? Petitioner: Yeah. Aloe: And then, do you have help during the day with the children? Petitioner: Yes. On the busy days I do, yes. Aloe: Where do they park? Petitioner: It’s a 3-car drive and they park either behind one of my cars. We park on the sides. And they can either park behind that or they park in the middle, and then the parents can pull up on the back because it holds six cars. Aloe: And it holds six cars before it gets to the city – Petitioner: My husband leaves for work early, too, so that’s another spot that’s not, you know, taken up also. He has a night-shift job, so he – you know, but during the day, yeah, there’s two cars in the drive. Aloe: You don’t park in your garage? Petitioner: No. No. Aloe: All right. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this petition? If so, come on up to the table. Seeing no one is coming forward, can you read the letters? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: Yes. We have Mary Fairbanks, 34444 Grove Drive (approval letter was read). John Garrity, 34429 Wood (objection letter was read). (Approval letter read) from Zach (Glod), 34459 Six Mile Road. Edward Richey Jr., 34491 Six Mile (approval letter was read). Edna Shuttleworth, 34475 Six Mile Road (approval letter was read). David Walsh, 34474 Grove (objection letter was read). And, Lori Villarruel, 34636 Wood (approval letter was read). Henzi: Mrs. Bagley, anything you’d like to say in closing? Petitioner: Well, the traffic seems to be the biggest concern with the neighbors, and I really don’t see how my daycare has increased the traffic. There’s already so much traffic coming from Cass. Another car or two leaving my driveway – which it doesn’t, because it’s not during that time. I don’t see where that would be such a big concern. I think most of the concern is, apparently, being congested at those times because it is fairly congested, but there’s an elementary school two blocks down the street from me. So, it’s going back – there are a lot of children in that neighborhood, and a lot of parents are picking up and dropping off their kids at that school. So – plus, there’s – and not only are there cars, but there’s buses coming in and out taking Fairlane going onto Six Mile. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Sills. Fisher: Mr. Chair, just – sorry, can I just interrupt for a second? Because I just want to point out there’s a – the write-up is a little bit sloppy. This is not actually a variance. It’s a conditional use approval. So what we’re looking for by way of a resolution is not the four findings, but just whether the factors set forth in the application have been met or are not met. Sorry. Go ahead, Bob. Sills: Thank you. Well, I reside, probably, half a block west of you, and I go around that Fairlane corner everyday, two or three times. And what I’ve noticed is that you say you’ve got a 3-car driveway, but I look at more of a 2 1/2-car driveway. And there are a good many times that cars that are parked there are violating by blocking the sidewalk. I see this – I go by there everyday, like I said, three or four times, and I see it almost everyday. And there are a good many times that I see it in the evenings, the evening hours, where you may have company drop by or something. They park and they block your driveway every time. So, I’m looking at this, and I would – I did have people on Grove and other streets approach me with saying that they have noticed a big difference since you have started your daycare operation with the traffic, and they asked me if I could do anything. I said, “Well, I sit on the Board, but I have to be unbiased on this and I have to just do what I think is best.” So I’m not – I don’t like to take sides or anything, but there have been several complaints about the traffic and the parking, especially blocking the sidewalk. So, for these reasons, I don’t think I could support this usage. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 117 May 24, 2011 Aloe: Well, I think I was in support until I heard that. And I have to put a little bit of credence in what Mr. Sills is saying. I mean he’s a neighbor that uses that all the time, and he’s saying that there are issues. And that’s what I was wondering when you were telling me how many cars park there, and I almost said are they – Petitioner: We do fit three cars across every time. Aloe: Pardon? Petitioner: We do fit three cars across. Aloe: No, but when you said they park in back of each other, in my mind, I was thinking, “I wonder if you’re staying off the city sidewalk,” because that would be unfair to the public. I mean, now you’re infringing on other people’s rights. So, I approved this the last time, and I heard the issues about traffic, but I didn’t feel that it was an issue because of where your house is. You know it’s like the first house off Six Mile. In my mind, I couldn’t imagine what kind of traffic that could create. But, I can’t approve if it’s causing issues with the sidewalk, so I won’t be able to support it. Petitioner: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, I wasn’t in support last time. I voted against it. Although, I see what seems to be less complaints, at least written into this Board. I also have to listen to what Bob says about living there and experiencing that issue. I’m kind of caught in between here. I see less complaints and I hear Bob talking about physically talking to folks about complaints. And I – Petitioner: I haven’t heard a single complaint in the 2 years I’ve been running a group home. Caramagno: I hear that and I see the notes, and I see some of them – the notes – some of the notes that I read are repeat complaints from last time around, although some didn’t bother to respond. That’s what I got for right now. I got to think about it another minute. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: Well, last time I wanted to table this, then I think the compromise was to go 2 years. But, I believe that this group daycare does meet the standards set forth in the Zoning Ordinance, and I believe they have a 2-year track record now where they’ve had no complaints to the city, as far as I know. And, I think that we should allow the Petitioner to continue her service to the community, and it’d only be good for the Petitioner. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 117 May 24, 2011 Pastor: Well, until tonight, I didn’t realize I drive by this every other week to pickup some people – some boys to go to CC. And my notice – what I notice every morning is not your prob – not what you do, is what the schools do. There’s always cars parked right on the street in the back of you, along Six Mile. There are always kids standing there. There’s always – Petitioner: There are. If I could – Pastor: – there’s always cars parked almost in front of your house. Petitioner: We have parents now that are parking in my driveway – Pastor: Right. Petitioner: – that I have to ask them to move because my – Pastor: I see that every other – Petitioner: – parents – Pastor: – because I drive – Petitioner: – because they’re – Pastor: – kids every other week. Petitioner: – sitting there waiting for their kids to come. Pastor: So, I don’t think this is your issue. I think this is a city issue more. You know, I don’t know how the city can control parents parking in your driveway or parking on the streets, because I see it all the time. I can support this. I don’t have any problems with this. I didn’t realize that this house was there until I went by your house tonight. So – and even when I went by tonight, I didn’t see any cars out of place. I didn’t see kids running around. I thought it was very quiet, so I can definitely support this. Henzi: I, too, would vote to support. I can’t understand why neighbors on both sides of your house say that it’s so quiet they don’t know even know a daycare home is operating. Yet, folks who live on Six Mile and/or Grove, which is a street away, say that their access to Six Mile has been hampered because of what you do. I think – Petitioner: I think it’s – Henzi: – that there’s a dis (sic) -- Petitioner: – complaining about the school more than me. Henzi: I agree. I think that either they’re complaining about traffic on Fairlane, which City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 117 May 24, 2011 may exist whether you have a daycare home or not. Petitioner: At Wood, yes. Henzi: Or they don’t like the idea of the group daycare home. So I’m all for it. I don’t sense that we have a consensus. So to be fair to you, I’d suggest a tabling resolution so she can come back. Mr. Pastor. Harb: Well, before – Sam didn’t – Caramagno: Yeah, I was against it last time for the reasons that I heard, and a couple of these letters, and what I heard Bob say. So, I’m going to stand against it now. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Harb, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2008-10-58: Danielle Bagley, 34496 Wood, Livonia, MI 48154 , seeking a continuation of a previous conditional use permit to operate a group day care for up to twelve minor children, which the Petitioner now seeks permanent approval of the Zoning Board of Appeals. The property is located on the north side of Wood (34496) between Fairlane and Whitby, be tabled to allow the Petitioner to be heard before a full Board. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Harb, Aloe, Caramagno, Sills, Henzi NAYS: None Henzi: This was tabled, which frankly is a benefit to you so you don’t have to pay to be rescheduled. The next available date is June 28th – or I’m sorry – June 28th. You have to call the Zoning Board office by June 8th. I sense that timeliness won’t be a problem because you’re not going to get your license renewed unless you have this designation. So, just call the Zoning Board office and asked to be put on the agenda for June 28th. Petitioner: Okay. To – Henzi: You got to do that by June 8th. Petitioner: To be considered again whether I’m being supported or not, or? Henzi: Correct. Petitioner: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: You heard the Board’s comments. You don’t need to do anything different, but you’re free to bring in more information if you’d like. Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: Thanks. (Another matter heard; Petitioner re-addressed Board at 8:52 p.m.) Petitioner: Could I say something before you start another case? Or, I didn’t want to interrupt. But – Henzi: Sure. Petitioner: – this is my job, my income, and I love these kids. I love my job. My state lady says that my house seems to have been built for daycare. She’s very happy with it. My food lady says I serve excellent meals, and the parents are very happy. Everybody’s very happy. I was not aware of any of these complaints. When I went to apply for this – the Zoning Board, I specifically asked if any complaints were against me and I was told, “No, not a single one.” If this whole thing is because of blocking the driveway, I was not aware of it. It must be the parents that are blocking the driveway as they’re coming and going. It’d be very easy for me to just move both of my cars into the street after two o’clock. That’s my only problem with running my daycare, because it would cause a tremendous hardship if I lost my daycare because of blocking a driveway. We need a second income. I would have to – this is my income that we need to keep our house going, and I’d have to put my kids in daycare and I’d have to find a job pretty quickly, or I’d be in big-time danger of losing my home over this. And I thought I was keeping my neighbors very happy, and the neighbors all around me, as you were saying, are the happy ones. Its people that are down the street, you know, have sort have been – I – Henzi: Danielle, I have to cut you off because I think that we’ve got a case that is probably going to take an hour and it’s nine o’clock. I apologize, but – Petitioner: Well, I’m also not sure what I’m coming back for another hearing, June 28th? Henzi: If you call by June 8th, we can have you on the agenda for June 28th. Petitioner: Okay. So, I should just tell my state lady that I have another hearing coming? Henzi: Yep. Petitioner: All right, thanks. Henzi: You just call the ZBA office, and then the state representative can confirm that with Jackie in the office. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: Okay. (Ends at 8:50) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 117 May 24, 2011 _____________________________________________________________________ (7:23 #1/1463) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-04-09 (Tabled on April 5, 2011): Arbor Trail Investments, 20379 Hall Road, Macomb, MI 48044, on behalf of Lessee Dollar Tree, 38000 Ann Arbor Road, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to erect two wall signs resulting in excess number of signs and wall sign area. Number of Wall Signs Wall Sign Area Allowed: One Allowed: 100 sq. ft. Proposed: Two Proposed: 139 sq. ft. Excess: One Excess: 39 sq. ft. The property is located on the north side of Ann Arbor Road (38000) between Ann Arbor Trail and Hix Road. Henzi: Is there a motion to remove from the table? Harb: So moved. Pastor: Support. Henzi: All in favor say “aye?” Board Members: Aye. Henzi: Opposed? This is removed. Thank you. Mr. Podina, anything to add? Podina: Not at this time. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Mr. Harb. Harb: I noticed that the allowable wall sign area is different, and I’m just wondering why. Like 105 sq. ft. before and now it’s 100? Podina: Do you know when that changed, Mike? Fisher: No, I have – oh, I guess that’s the change that was your friend, Randy, changing it. Harb: Thank you. That’s fine. Henzi: Anything else? Hearing none, will the Petitioner or representative please come to the table? Good evening. Petitioner: Hello. Patrick Stieber, 33650 Giftos Drive, Clinton Township, MI. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: Mr. Stieber, either you or somebody else from your company – Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: – was here once before? Petitioner: Yeah, it was me here the last time. Henzi: Okay. Just tell us what’s different this time around. Petitioner: Well, starting with where we were at the first meeting, we were proposing to erect a larger wall sign on the front elevation, the front entrance elevation of the building. Per our discussions back and forth with the Board Members, they felt that our proposal was excessive for that size sign on the front, but the Board did recognize that we did have a hardship based on the way the building was positioned on Ann Arbor Road and Ann Arbor Trail with the angle. We really feel like we had a lack of identification for the traffic flows on Ann Arbor Road, which was why we’re here for the variance to ask for more signage. Based on our conversations at the last meeting, we came to a conclusion that it might be a better option to ask for a second smaller wall sign on the side elevation to get us the identification that we need for the traffic flows on Ann Arbor Road. So what we did was propose a smaller sign, a sign that would keep us in line with the square footage allotments for the sign code when it does allow for a second sign on a corner unit on a major thoroughfare. So we feel like by, you know, complying and scaling this sign down, and coming into compliance with the square footage requirements for a second sign that, you know, will be more conducive all around for all of us and it’ll help us with our identification problem. So, we do feel that, you know, what we’re proposing now is a better fit and we’re hoping that the Board will approve our submittal of the revised plans, and see that we do have a lack of identification that – then that this sign is needed. Henzi: The smaller sign’s about 43 sq. ft.; is that right? Petitioner: It is – yeah, just under 43. So we’re under the allowable of I think what’s – we should be able to have 150 total, if I’m not mistaken. Well, a hundred for one sign and that half of that for a second sign, if I’m not mistaken; isn’t that how the code would be written? Henzi: I think if it was deemed a corner side yard – Petitioner: Exactly. Henzi: – you’d have 50 on the side. Petitioner: Exactly. Yep. Henzi: But your front facade sign, that’s smaller than what you originally proposed; isn’t it? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: That’s the – yeah, that – we’re not doing anything with that front sign. Henzi: You don’t want the front one at all. Petitioner: No, it’s up there. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: It’s up there. But remember, before we were proposing to remove – Henzi: Right. Petitioner: – that sign – Henzi: Right. Petitioner: – without the larger one. Henzi: Got it. Petitioner: So, we’ve just elected to keep that sign in place that was previously permitted, and just ask for the second sign on the side. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for Mr. Stieber? Mr. Pastor. Pastor: How many square feet is the existing sign? Petitioner: It is, I believe, 100 sq. ft. Pastor: And you were trying to get something larger last time? Petitioner: Yes. Yep. We had – right now, there’s a 36-inch tall letter set that’s up there and we were asking for – Pastor: For a 4-foot. Petitioner: – a 48-inch. Pastor: Okay. Okay. That clears that up for me. Thank you. Henzi: Yeah, the first time around, you wanted to replace the existing with 171 sq. ft. sign. Petitioner: Right. Henzi: Okay. Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the table. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 117 May 24, 2011 Komora: Just go here? Henzi: Sure. Komora: I’m Lori Komora. I live at 38143 Richland, which is right behind this facility. One question I have is where on the side of the building do you want this to go? Petitioner: I’ll show you. Komora: Above where the old prior doors were for the Mike’s Market? Petitioner: Right here. Komora: Okay. Petitioner: This is the sign – Komora: Yeah. Petitioner: – which would be right here. Yep. Komora: What’s interesting about this is Mike’s Market had been there for years and was able to survive with just the one sign on the front and the second sign, which they have as well, out by the road. If you go by Dollar Tree now, the parking lot always is full. They haven’t had any exposure problems. I don’t – you know with all the lights and everything else, there is no need for an additional sign. The amount of traffic they’re getting is very apparent because the amount of garbage that has strown (sic) from the facility behind all the houses there is apparent that, you know, they are getting the exposure with the kids and all the people are aware that the building is there, without any additional signage. And I know it’s not their responsibility with the garbage that’s appearing, but they don’t even have a garbage can like Mike’s Market had outside; so did Rite Aid. Rite Aid had no problems with one sign in front of their building. They never had a sign on the side. Their smaller sign was out on Ann Arbor Road. I mean the businesses that were there prior for – you know never had any problems with needing a second sign on the building on the side. Yeah, they already have two signs. Three? Do we really need to go with that much? That’s my concern. Petitioner: Please note those businesses are not there anymore, too. Komora: They’re not there anymore because of – Mike’s Market, he retired and he didn’t get anyone inside the building because of the economy. It had nothing to do with – he had more than enough business. And Rite Aid, they didn’t renew their lease. It had nothing to do with the business. Petitioner: No, it’s the property. Henzi: Anything else? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: Hardship of the property. Komora: That’s all I want to say. No, I’m set. Thank you. Henzi: Okay. Anybody else want to speak for or against the project? Seeing no one else is coming forward, can you read the letters? Caramagno: We have an objection from Jocelyn Baker, 38238 Ann Arbor Trail (letter was read). Kathryn Creutz, 38216 Ann Arbor Trail (objection letter was read). Anthony DeCesco, 38115 Richland (objection letter was read). Barbara Dempsey, 38170 Ann Arbor Trail (objection letter was read). Robert Michael Diamond, 38101 Richland (approval letter read). Ethel (Hoenecke) for Stella Moreland [2325 Rockwell Dr. #213, Midland, MI] (objection letter read). Gloria Krueger, 38234 Ann Arbor Trail (objection letter was read). Sharon McDougald, 38067 Richland (objection letter was read). Elaine Pettit, 38226 Ann Arbor Trail (objection letter was read). Jean Spicer, 38172 Ann Arbor Trail (objection letter was read). Louis (Tarach), 9782 Houghton (objection letter was read). Judith Vaughn, 38246 Ann Arbor Trail (objection letter was read). Henzi: Mr. Stieber, anything you’d like to say in response to those comments? Petitioner: No. We still feel that due to the shape of this property that there is a lack of identification to the traffic flows. You know everybody has their opinion and so does the business, and they really feel that the sign is needed. You know they’ve scaled down their request and hope that we can get approval tonight. Henzi: Thank you. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I’m going to be in support even with the neighbors not approving. I think the Petitioner went back; I think he looked into concerns and how the Board felt, and I think he tried to meet that. And I don’t think what he’s asking for is unreasonable. I don’t think it’s distasteful or gaudy, or anything. It’s simply signage on a building that’s in a very odd setting. It’s not really a corner because of the angle of Ann Arbor Trail; but yet, it really faces two different main roads. So, for that reason, I’ll be in support. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: This is a tough deal. You got 11 objections; 11. I mean there’s nobody for this, none of them. And the problem I find with it is I don’t think these people truly understand where that sign is going to go. A lot of these letters seem to come from the apartments across the way or condos across the way. They won’t even see it, and they’re not going to even visualize the sign. It’s on Ann Arbor Road where there must be thousands of signs between Newburgh Road and 275. This is one more. Will it look terrible? No, not in my mind it won’t, but I still struggle with these 11 objections. I’d sure like these people to feel more comfortable about it before I vote yes. So, that’s where I’m at now. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I believe there’s a uniqueness because it’s an odd-shaped lot or – and the size of the property. I also believe that this could be considered as a corner lot, and as such, I think two signs are necessary for this building. The Petitioner went from 172 sq. ft. the first time when we tabled it. It’s now at 139 sq. ft. I think that is very reasonable, and therefore, I’ll be in support. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, I wasn’t really in support of this the first time around, although I do see the uniqueness of the building. He’s got a monument sign. He’s got a large front sign. He’s got a lot of objection. And some of the objection is the maintenance of the building, you know, trash flying around and stuff. That’s something that they should be able to take care of with no problem. So, at this point, I don’t think I’m going to support this. I think this is a – they need to come before us with a little bit better slate – or a little bit better record with the neighborhood. So, I’m not going to support this. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I agree with Mr. Pastor. I think we have to consider the neighbors’ objections, and I believe the sign he’s got there is adequate. And the comments that one of the ladies made earlier this evening about the parking lot always being full, I agree with that, too, because I pass that section many times, and the Dollar Trees these days are doing a great business. So, I think we do owe it to the objection - objecting neighborhood to turn this down for the additional 39 ft. (sic). Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: No, I already spoke. Henzi: Oh, you already went? Sorry. I would approve. There was a lot of discussion the first time Mr. Stieber’s here about there being a need for a sign at the Ann Arbor Road side because of traffic traveling on Ann Arbor Road. I happen to think this is a corner lot. I think the petition is reasonable. I also don’t like to hear about trash, but I think that that could be remedied. I think the sign package is appropriate for that corner. Is there a motion? Harb: It looks like we’re, you know – Pastor: It might – Henzi: I thought it was – Sills: Did we get a vote from Sam? Aloe: He’s been thinking. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: I’ve got a – you know – Henzi: I thought it was 4-2. Pastor: I’d go for a tabling motion so another Board Member could be here to possibly break the stalemate as it’ll still be. Fisher: Well, Sam, would it change your mind if you had a condition inside there that said they had to fix the wall before they could put up a sign? Caramagno: Well, I’d like to see the improvements made; there’s no doubt about it. I don’t have a problem with the sign. The problem I had was with the 11 objections and no support at all. Fisher: Right. Caramagno: That’s the problem I have with it. The – and the problem I’ve got with that is I think those people don’t understand. One of them even said it’s going to be on the – Fisher: Right. Caramagno: – north wall of the building. Well, it’s not. It’s on the south wall. It’s not even visual from the apartments or condos behind them. I believe that’s what they’re talking about because there are no condos or apartments on the south side of Ann Arbor Trail there – Ann Arbor Road there. I respect what the lady said here about the trash. Business is business; good and bad, they go in and out. And, yeah, probably with cleaning up that trash and – but you’re in no position to tell us you’re going to clean the trash up because you’re the sign guy; aren’t you? Petitioner: I can make that – we can make that a stipulation that they have to put garbage cans out there. I don’t think it would be a problem. Harb: Maybe a dumpster. Petitioner: You know it can be a stipulation, can’t it, into the approval? Caramagno: Anything can be, yes. Anything can be. With the wall fixed, garbage cans for litter in the front, I will support this because I think there are some residents that don’t understand – Petitioner: I think those are legitimate – Caramagno: – the sign package. Petitioner: – and I don’t think that Dollar Tree would have any objection to, you know, cleaning that up and providing, you know, garbage cans for the property. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: Yeah, I – okay. You still are short, so if there’s – Caramagno: No, you’re not – if I go, you’re not short. Harb: No, it’s 3-3. Henzi: Yeah. Caramagno: Is that right? Henzi: You make it 3-3. Aloe: Four. No, it’s four. Pastor: No, it’s Bob and I, and – Aloe: Us four. Fisher: Yeah. You got – if you got Sam, you got four. Caramagno: Yeah, if you got me, you got four. You got four. Henzi: Oh, okay. Caramagno: You got four. Harb: Supporters? Henzi: Okay. Floor’s open for a motion. Harb: I’ll make a motion. Before I do, are we going to – the internally illuminated LED, are we going to have a time on that? Pastor: Should be on for a couple hours. Harb: Because it is internally – it is LED. Can you tell me the hours of operation? Petitioner: Standard hours are, typically, from 9:00 to 9:00. Harb: Would you say 11:00? Caramagno: Yeah, I wouldn’t make it – yeah, no later than that. No later than 11:00. Harb: Is that typical? Pastor: What’s that? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 117 May 24, 2011 Harb: Like 11:00? Henzi: Well, what time does Dollar Tree close? Petitioner: Nine. Typical – in the commercial sign industry, typical is midnight. But, you know – Henzi: I’d say 10:00 because we usually say one hour after close. Harb: All right. All right, so you basically – all right. Upon Motion by Harb, supported by Aloe, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-04-09: Arbor Trail Investments, 20379 Hall Road, Macomb, MI 48044, on behalf of Lessee Dollar Tree, 38000 Ann Arbor Road, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to erect two wall signs resulting in excess number of signs and wall sign area. Number of Wall Signs Wall Sign Area Allowed: One Allowed: 100 sq. ft. Proposed: Two Proposed: 139 sq. ft. Excess: One Excess: 39 sq. ft. The property is located on the north side of Ann Arbor Road (38000) between Ann Arbor Trail and Hix Road, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of the lot’s odd shape and its size, and with the way it is positioned on Ann Arbor Road and Ann Arbor Trail, it is viewed as a corner lot. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because it needs identification on the south side for customers traveling eastbound on Ann Arbor Road. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the proposed sign package is consistent with other corner lots in Livonia. 4. The Board received one (1) letter of approval and eleven (11) letters of objection from neighboring property owners, along with an opposing neighbor in attendance. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Office Services” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 117 May 24, 2011 FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That garbage cans shall be placed strategically in front of the store. 2. That the cement block fence shall be repaired where needed. 3. That the LED lighting is to be shut off one hour after closing. 4. That the proposed signs be constructed as proposed on the plans which were presented to the Board. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Harb, Aloe, Caramagno, Henzi NAYS: Pastor, Sills Henzi: Your variance is granted with those four conditions. I’ll read them one more time quickly: You’ve got to place the garbage cans outside the building; cement block fence (sic) has to be repaired; the LED turns off one hour after you close; and you’ve got to erect the sign as you presented it tonight. Petitioner: Thank you for your time. Henzi: Thanks. Good luck. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 117 May 24, 2011 ______________________________________________________________________ (7:46 #1/3004) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-21: Jeremy and Amanda Tima, 14592 Yale, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect an accessory building resulting in excess lot coverage. Lot Coverage Allowed: 25.0% (1,900 sq. ft.) Proposed: 30.3% (2,309 sq. ft.) Excess: 5.3% ( 409 sq. ft.) The property is located on the east side of Yale (14592) between Lyndon and Henry. Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add? Podina: No, sir. Harb: Mr. Podina – Henzi: Any questions? Mr. Harb. Harb: – this is a pre-existing deficiency; is that right? Podina: Yeah, I believe so; yes. Harb: So even without the 10 x 10 thing, they’re still not – okay. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table? Good evening. Petitioner: How you doing this evening? My name’s Frank Tima. I’m here for my son Jeremy and daughter-in-law; at 30710 Mason Court, Livonia, MI, is where I preside. Henzi: Can you describe for us why they want to erect the outbuilding? Petitioner: Well – Henzi: Or the accessory building? Petitioner: – the lot is only 80 ft. deep, where the majority of the lots in Livonia are 120 ft. deep. So, it’s an irregular lot. Henzi: How long have they lived there? Petitioner: They just bought the house about a year-and-a-half ago, 2 years. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: Within our packet, there’s a proposed – there’s pictures of different types of sheds or accessory buildings. Petitioner: 10 x 10's, yes. Henzi: The dark tall barn, is that the one that they want to put in the back? Petitioner: Yes, if that’s the picture he put in there, that’s the one that they’re trying to get approved. Henzi: And is that a pre-fab item? Petitioner: It’s from – yeah, it’s from that company on Schoolcraft, Tuff Shed, and they’ll come out and erect it. It’s painted, shingled; complete package. Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioner’s representative? Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: In the pictures that are submitted here, where’s the shed going? Is it going in the – Petitioner: Where the Pine tree is. Is there a Pine tree right there in the left – Caramagno: Is this a garden box here? Petitioner: Past the garden box. Caramagno: It’s going to go behind that? Petitioner: Yes, it’s back in the corner, staying – I believe it is 2 ft. each way that the city requires. Caramagno: Is the tree coming down? Petitioner: Yes, the tree is coming down. Caramagno: Okay, I didn’t understand that. Yeah. Petitioner: Yes, I’m sorry. Caramagno: If the tree comes down, it’s going to go 2 ft. from the -- Petitioner: The corner. Caramagno: – north and from the back. Which way is the door going to face? Petitioner: The door will be on the south side. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: Okay. Petitioner: Facing south; south side. Caramagno: And the garden stays where it’s at in front of the shed. Petitioner: Yes. Caramagno: Okay. That’s all I’ve got. Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Is he going to put any power in this? Petitioner: I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you, sir. Pastor: Is he going to put any power in this shed? Petitioner: No. Pastor: No? Thank you. Petitioner: Not at this time, but if there is, they’ll pull a permit for it. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Mr. Harb. Harb: Sir, do you have any idea the size of the garage at this time? Petitioner: The garage is a small garage, 20 x 20, that’s existing there now. Harb: Thank you. Petitioner: It’s attached to the house. Henzi: What are they going to store in the shed? Petitioner: Garden tools, his tractor, the lawn equipment, bikes, you know, stuff like that. Henzi: Is the tractor a riding mower? Petitioner: It’s – yes. He inherited from his – Henzi: He’ll be done pretty quickly on that lot. Okay. Any other questions? Sills: Is the concrete patio considered lot coverage? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 117 May 24, 2011 Fisher: No, if it’s at grade, no. Only those raised patios we talk about in the northwest part of town are a concern. Sills: Okay. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up. Seeing no one is coming forward, can you read the letters? Caramagno: Sandra Fontaine, 14644 Yale, sends an approval. Michele Grace, 14536 Yale, sends an approval. And, Daniel Long, 14640 Ronnie (approval letter was read). Henzi: Mr. Tima, is there anything you’d like to say in closing? Petitioner: No, sir. Henzi: Okay, I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, very clear on this one. I’ll stand in approval for this. You do have a small lot and a small garage to go along with it, and I can see the need for the space. And for the – many of your other neighbors have – your son’s neighbors have sheds as well. So, it won’t be out of place at all. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I will also be in support. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I’ll be in support. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I’ll be in support. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Support. Henzi: I, too, will support. I agree with Mr. Caramagno. So, the floor’s open for a motion. Mr. Caramagno. Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Sills, it was: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 117 May 24, 2011 RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-21: Jeremy and Amanda Tima, 14592 Yale, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect an accessory building resulting in excess lot coverage. Lot Coverage Allowed: 25.0% (1,900 sq. ft.) Proposed: 30.3% (2,309 sq. ft.) Excess: 5.3% ( 409 sq. ft.) The property is located on the east side of Yale (14592) between Lyndon and Henry, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the home is built on an irregular sized lot and has a small garage. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioners because they would not be able to store their yard maintenance equipment and patio furniture. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the proposed shed is consistent with the neighborhood. 4. The Board received two (2) letters of approval and no letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low- density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the shed be built as proposed on the plans which were presented to the Board. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Caramagno, Sills, Aloe, Harb, Pastor, Henzi NAYS: None Henzi: Variance is granted with those conditions that you heard Mr. Caramagno read. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: Good luck to you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 117 May 24, 2011 ______________________________________________________________________ (7:53 #1/3642) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-22: James Fisher, 16780 Bell Creek, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct a “pool house” (accessory building) in the rear yard while maintaining an existing accessory building resulting in excess number of accessory buildings, building area, and excess height. Number of Buildings Building Area Allowed: One Allowed: 200 sq. ft. Proposed: Two Proposed: 800 sq. ft. Excess: One Existing: 200 sq. ft. Excess: 600 sq. ft. Building Height Allowed: 16 ft. 0 in. Proposed: 17 ft. 9 in. Excess: 1 ft. 9 in. The property is located on east side of Bell Creek (16780) between Bloomfield and Six Mile Road. Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add to this case? Podina: No, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Podina? Mr. Sills. Sills: Would a perimeter fence around the entire backyard, would that serve as a protection for the pool also? Or would a second fence be necessary? Podina: No, I think that would suffice. Sills: The single fence would be sufficient? Podina: Sure. Sills: That’s about all I’d be interested in knowing. Henzi: John, I had a question for you. Podina: Yes, sir. Henzi: You know when I drove by and got back there, it doesn’t look like there’s a lot of room. He might have to clear some trees. Does he have to get an engineering permit and/or wetlands permit to build? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 117 May 24, 2011 Podina: I would imagine it depends on how close it is to the property line. Henzi: Okay. Podina: Yeah, whether it be – yeah, he’s a little close to it. I did not look at the utilities. I don’t know if the power’s overhead or underground. I’m not sure. But, there would be some consideration as far as that goes. Henzi: Okay. Mr. Harb. Harb: Do we know how big the existing shed is? Podina: No, I don’t. Harb: It looks so small. Podina: Yeah. Harb: 10 x 10 maybe? Podina: It’s not very big. Sills: It’s 200 sq. ft. Podina: Yeah. Harb: It’s 200 sq. ft. Sills: It’s 10 x 20. Harb: 10 x 20. All right. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Will the Petitioner please come forward? Petitioner: Good evening. Henzi: Good evening. Can you tell us your name and address? Petitioner: Jim Fisher, 16780 Bell Creek Lane. Henzi: Will you tell us a little bit about your proposed pool house? Petitioner: We are going to put in a 20 x 40 wide in-ground pool this spring, and we had an architect – I have an architect come out and we were going to build the pool house, and he gave us basically two options. We could either add on another addition to our house on the back of our family room, which would cause us to take down some trees. As it sits now, with our proposal, I’m not taking down any trees. It all fits there fine. The City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 117 May 24, 2011 other thing that I noticed when we – when you guys were talking here was the building area proposal. We’re looking to propose a 400 sq. ft. self-enclosed with a 200 sq. ft. overhang. It shows 800. I’m not sure if that’ – Pastor: Eight hundred’s because they added the shed that is already existing. You have eight – Henzi: Are you looking at the Public Notice? Petitioner: Yeah, yeah, the proposed. I assume when it says “proposed” we’re asking for 800. Fisher: You are. You’re asking 600, plus the existing 200. Petitioner: Okay. But, one of the points was – and I think it was just said, when you’re back there, it looked like we’d have to take down trees. There’s no need to take down any more trees. When I bought that house in ‘05 – late ‘04, I had to take down some trees because the fella that lived there for 40-50 years didn’t do a lot of that. So, we cleared room back there. I have two boys who needed room, with the intent of putting in a pool. We’re done taking down trees. I’ve planted more trees than I’ve taken down. We’ve landscaped the front of it, and we’ll continue that after our pool is put in. Henzi: What about the grade? Are you going to need to do some site leveling? Petitioner: In regard to? Henzi: In the back. Petitioner: Well, it does go down. We have put dirt back there. I put a lot of dirt back there already when we did our front yard. We brought in dirt to put back there. I mean we won’t drain to the back. We won’t move our water in any direction that can’t. But there is a slight grade to it already, and it was an even steeper one when we got there. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner? Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I’m sorry. No, I don’t think – I see it. Henzi: You know what, I forgot the – one of my big concerns. Why 17'9"? I don’t think, while I’ve been on the Board, we ever approved excess height like that. Petitioner: I don’t think we need that. I know we don’t need that. That came from architectural drawings and, you know, we don’t need to exceed that. Henzi: You’re not going to have a loft – Petitioner: No, no – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: – up there; are you? Petitioner: – no, no, no. It’s not going to be a 4-seasons room. There’s going to be no heat, no cooling. It’s just a shelf/gathering place with typical 110 electricity so you can run a fan, lights, food prep area. Henzi: Okay. Mr. Harb. Harb: All right. Mr. Fisher, if – first of all, the – when you look at the plot plan, it looks like the building is located in a different way than what this shows. Is this – Petitioner: That’s just the backyard there. Harb: Right. Is it going to be – it’s supposed to be 20 x 30? It’s really 20 x 20 with a 10- ft. overhand; right? Petitioner: Correct. Harb: Okay. This looks like more square than this is. Petitioner: That was just a rendering there. Harb: Okay. All right. So – and the existing shed is 200 sq. ft. Petitioner: It’s 10 x 20, yeah. Harb: Okay. So you have, virtually, an acre – Petitioner: I do. Harb: – almost an acre. Petitioner: Just a little bit less; right. Harb: And you have a – I can’t remember if it’s a 2 or 3-car garage? Petitioner: It’s a 3-car garage. Harb: 3-car garage. Do you know how many square feet that is? Petitioner: I don’t. It’s – it fits our – you know, when we can fit our cars in it, it fits three tight vehicles that – Harb: But about 680 sq. ft. or so? Petitioner: Yeah, I don’t know that figure, but – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 117 May 24, 2011 Harb: Okay. Petitioner: – something like that. Harb: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Just to make sure I understood what you said about the building height. You’re going to keep your building height within the 16 ft.? Petitioner: Certainly. Pastor: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: The shed, I didn’t get a good look at the shed. What is it, some sort of fancy shed or is it – well, what is it? Petitioner: It – T1-11 sided, painted shed with a couple dorm – well, a couple false dormers up top. Caramagno: Relatively new or is it old? Petitioner: Relatively new. Caramagno: You put it in? Petitioner: Three years old. Caramagno: Okay. Petitioner: Bongero Construction did it. Caramagno: Okay, so it’s not been sitting there for a long time. Petitioner: No. Caramagno: And Bongero built it? Petitioner: They did. Caramagno: Who’s building your – Petitioner: Bongero. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: Bongero’s building that, too; hey? What goes in first, the pool or the pool house? Petitioner: Well, the pool house; at least the footing needs to go in first, and then they’re going to come in. So then they can work around each other so to speak, so. Caramagno: This is a summer project? Petitioner: Yeah, spring project. We want to get started right away. Caramagno: Be swimming by summer; huh? Petitioner: Yeah. Caramagno: Okay. All right, that’s all I’ve got. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the table. Bongero: Hi, Dave Bongero with Bongero Construction. I went with just something real simple. W e’ve had the privilege of doing a couple very large projects on Jim’s house, and he does everything first class. This is going to be no different. It’s going to be tastefully done. And if you had the privilege of walking around his house, it’s – he has really helped to improve his street. He keeps up – it’s immaculate. And price is no – on – no – it’s not even an issue. He wants nice things and he wants to really enjoy his backyard. And if you see what he proposed in that plan, it’s going to be really nice. I mean it’s not going to be a hindrance. It’s really going to be tastefully done, and that’s really all I’d like to say. It’s going to fit his house. It’s going to look really sharp. And the grade should be no issue at all. We’re really going to be even with his patio slab. We already shot the grades with the pool contractor; going to establish the grade. So, really, there’ll be no issue at all with the drainage or anything, and no disruption going into the backyard as far as altering that rear drainage easement back there. We won’t even be near it. Henzi: Okay. Any questions? Is there anybody else who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. Good evening. Waun: Hi. My name is Tim W aun. I live on 16780 Mayfield. We’re one street over from Bell Creek. It would be my position that we would not approve of what Mr. Fisher’s trying to do. We lived in our house for about 19 years, and since Mr. Fisher’s lived there, he’s removed quite a few trees. He’s been very aggressive in changing the character and the footprint of the area, and he’s done so without, I think really, regard with the character of the street. That’s his business; it’s his property. He’s done it, really, without a lot of regard to the opinions of the neighbors in the area; that’s his right to do that, but the zoning laws are here to protect the character of the neighborhood, and it’s the opinion of most of everyone who lives around there, that they’ve been very upset, even with – he’s done a good job with the building aspect, but just in the way that City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 117 May 24, 2011 he’s gone about cutting down trees and it’s upset a lot of people. And this is a perfect example of why we have zoning laws to protect everybody else, so. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. If there’s others, just come on up. Good evening. Mark Malisani: Good evening. Mark Malisani. I live at 16825 Mayfield. We’re directly behind Mr. Fisher. Our house backs up to his backyard. And I would be against having a building that size put in. As Mr. Waun said, they did take down a lot trees. I’m worried about the trees. I know the ravine area is all protected wetland by the DNR. I don’t know if they’re going to be interfering with any of that. It’s just too big of a structure. I mean we’re going to be looking directly at it. And when we’re doing landscaping, we were questioned, you know, and told about DNR stuff, that we’re putting in trees. We’re putting in some more trees. We put in some Pines. And, you know, it’s just the character of the neighborhood. And I don’t know if any of you know the neighborhood, I’d really appreciate you guys driving through there. But it’s just a unique neighborhood. I mean we have deer, all kinds of birds. We have all kinds of animals back there, and we’ve moved in there because of the uniqueness of the neighborhood. And it’s just – he’s not building a pool house, he’s building a house. That’s large. And like you said, he has a done a wonder (sic) – you know, a nice job – besides cutting down the trees, what he’s done is very nice. It’s just too large. I mean we’re going to be looking at it everyday. Henzi: What interaction did you have with the DNR? You said that you put some trees and you – Malisani: When we were doing some remodeling and some landscape, and we were told that the ravine area we had to be careful what we did because it was protected wetland by the DNR. Henzi: Okay. Malisani: And they – you know, we couldn’t go down there and disturb trees and disturb – you know, take out stuff, which we weren’t going to. We wanted to put in more. Henzi: Okay. Anything else? Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Have you seen his rendering, his drawing here about how – all the landscape being put in? Have you seen this picture? Malisani: I’ve – do see – Caramagno: How the landscape looks? Like Spruce trees being put in and everything else? Petitioner: Correct. Caramagno: Have you seen this? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 117 May 24, 2011 Malisani: Yes, sir. Caramagno: Oh, it doesn’t – still doesn’t – obviously doesn’t appeal with what you like. Malisani: It’s just – it’s not what I like. I mean he took down hundred year old trees that I want – Caramagno: But they are coming back. Malisani: I’m worried about that, but it’s the size of the building. I mean it’s – like I said, it’s another house. Caramagno: Well, I’ve heard both you and the prior fellow talk about size of the building in one sentence, and the rest it’s been about big trees that are gone and aren’t coming back. So, is it the size of the building or is it the trees? Malisani: Well, it’s everything. I mean like I said, if you want to keep the uniqueness of the neighborhood, then – like he said, it’s not another – it’s not a pool house he’s building, it’s a – it’s, basically, a small starter home. I mean it’s large. Caramagno: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Maybe Mike can help me. Are there wetlands back there that the DNR has to go in there and approve anything? Fisher: I honestly don’t know. I can’t see anything on any of these maps that identifies this as a wetland. Bongero: You know we researched that and there’s no flood plain anywhere near there or anything. That is one thing we checked out right off the bat. Petitioner: It was a couple thousand feet to the south, the flood plain. Henzi: That’s where it begins? Petitioner: Correct. Henzi: Is there anyone else who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. Good evening. Wicher: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Thomas Wicher, W -I-c-h-e-r. I live at 16723 Mayfield. Obviously, I’m within 300 ft. of this gentleman’s property. I do have some issues and I am afraid I must object. The square footage of this building is one of them: 800 sq. ft. is, basically, a guesthouse. I know the gentleman said it’s not going to be heated; how are we assured of that? I know he said it’s going to be a pool City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 117 May 24, 2011 house, but this building is going in first before the pool is going in. How are we assured that the pool is actually going to be going in? He wants to have sheds, he’s only allowed one. I understand his concerns with the height. He’s offered to reduce that; that’s fine. I know that there have been other issues in the neighborhood. There was a gentleman that wanted to put in a separate building on Fairfield, was denied. I myself had an attached second 2-car garage that had been there for 14 years. Had I called it a “pool house,” maybe I could have gotten the Zoning Board approval for that. None of my neighbors objected at the second 2-car garage, but the Zoning Board 8-0 (sic) me, denied. I had to convert it to habitable. I’m not holding a grudge. My neighbors all supported me for that extra 2-car garage because it had been there so long. So I am here supporting my neighbors. I need to have insurances that this is not a guesthouse. If it’s heated, then obviously – that’s another issue. And how are we going to know whether it’s heated or not? It’s going to have electricity. Eight hundred square feet is a – it is maid quarters or a guesthouse, so I cannot support this gentleman’s petition to have this rezoned. Henzi: Thank you. Wicher: Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Before you leave – sir? Do you realize that this is not 800 sq. ft.? The 800 sq. ft. comes in with the addition of the shed. So the 800 square – they have a 200 sq. ft. shed there. Wicher: I understand that 200 sq. ft. is the maximum for – Pastor: No, no, no; listen to me. Wicher: – a second building. Pastor: Please, listen to me. Wicher: Okay. Pastor: The shed is 200 sq. ft. This pool house is four – or 600 sq. ft. Of that 600 sq. ft., part of it’s only covered by a roof. It’s open. It’s not 800 sq. ft. of building. Wicher: With all due respect, sir, it’s not even going to be visible from my property. Pastor: Well, I just want to make that point – Wicher: This is a – Pastor: – because I see other people shaking their heads about – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 117 May 24, 2011 Wicher: I – Pastor: – this 800 sq. ft. Wicher: – understand that. Pastor: It’s not a total of – Wicher: I understand that – Pastor: – 800 sq. ft. Wicher: – there is precedence for this. It’s my understanding there was a doctor in Livonia that put up a pool house similar to this and the Zoning Board approved it. This is – I mean we’re walking a fine line here. How far do we go? Landscaping or not, Arborvitaes or not, where does this lead to? That’s my only concern. And as far as the character of the neighborhood, I agree with my neighbors. This is a unique area in the City of Livonia. This is – besides, you know, Plymouth and Merriman, Rosedale Park (sic), this is one of the oldest subdivisions in the city. I mean it – the – that is – warrants some consideration. Thank you for your time. Henzi: Anybody else want to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. Good evening. Kelly Malisani: Good evening. My name is Kelly Malisani. I live at 16825 Mayfield, which my husband has already spoken. We live directly behind Mr. Fisher. I went to city hall this morning and saw the drawings that have been submitted. Where he’s proposing on putting that building is – I mean directly behind my home. When he said that he had taken down a couple of trees, he cleared the lot. There’s nothing left. On the sides, possibly. But now what I would see when I look out my windows is a building. When I moved into this subdivision, I moved here because of the uniqueness of it. We have a neighborhood of low-slung ranches, no streetlights, and no sidewalks. It’s very quaint. We have animals that roam in the backyard. The height variance disturbs me immensely. You, if I recall, wanted to take down a landmark on Plymouth Road with a Big Boy statute. That was on a main thoroughfare. I’d have to look at that from my yard. Henzi: He withdrew the height request. Kelly Malisani: Okay. Even still, it’s a huge structure. On the side that I’m on of this ravine, I’m at a lower grade. He’s at a higher grade. It would – I’d be virtually blocked of any view. I’m not sure I’d even see a sunset again. It just – I think I speak for all of the neighbors when I say that we’re not against change. It’s that – I mean making a neighborhood look better is always welcomed, but to totally go against everything that this neighborhood is is just criminal. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: Will you feel the same if there were mature trees between his pool house and your backyard? Kelly Malisani: I don’t know. I’d have to think about that. Henzi: Okay. That’s fair. Anything else? Anybody else want to speak for or against – Kelly Malisani: Thank you. Henzi: – the project? If so, come on up. Vasileff: Good evening. Henzi: Good evening. Vasileff: Craig Vasileff, 16765 Bell Creek Lane. You know what, I would like to make a point that, yeah, you know what, Mr. Fisher has done wonders for his house; okay? But you sit there and think about it, I mean you know what, he’s done wonders for his house and his lifestyle; but by doing things to his house that might change some other people’s lifestyles and you’re seeing that tonight by everybody showing up. Okay? I’ve been in the backyards of, you know, Kelly and Mark, and you know what, something you got to look at is the grade difference; okay? You’re talking about 16 ft. high height rook, okay, and their grade difference, correct me if I’m wrong – you guys would know more than I would – may – might be 15 ft.? So if you’re in their backyard and you’re looking at that pool house, okay, there could be a difference of 30 ft. from where their patio is to the top of that roof line. Okay, 30 ft.’s, roughly, a 3-story building. So you sit in your backyard, look out 30-40 ft., 50 ft. and stare at the top of a 30 ft. building – or a 3-story building in your backyard. Would you like that? I mean that’s something that they’re looking at, that they’re thinking about. And you know what, you’re talking about the difference of, what, for – what’s it 30 ft? You said 30 x 20? The pool house itself? Right? So you’re talking about a whole roof of 40 ft. So what’s going to happen when all those leaves off the trees and everything else fall in the wintertime, what are these folks going to be looking at? Nothing but a brick wall of 30 ft., and then a roof of 40 ft. So other than that – you know what, that’s all I have to say is that, you know what, change is good absolutely; but you know what, to what extent? And there are rules and there are ordinances that the city sets down. You know, it’s up to you folks to enforce it and just put yourselves in the positions of these people when you make your decision. Thank you. Henzi: Thanks. Anybody else? Fisher: Mr. Chair, just for the record, I know everybody on this Board knows, but evidently, not everybody in the audience does. But the Big Boy sign never came before this Board. Henzi: Thank you. Good evening. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 117 May 24, 2011 Sills: I think we can go one step further than that by including that this Board does not enforce ordinances. This Board is here to serve the public with variances to the ordinances. Wicher: The ordinances are a guideline. Henzi: Go ahead. Myres: Okay. My name – Henzi: Tell us your name and address. Myres: My name’s Neil Myres. I live at 16800 Bell Creek Lane. I have the property directly north of him. Since Mr. Fisher’s moved in, I can tell you unequivocally I’ve considered him a good friend, a good neighbor. And one of the reasons I’m here today is – and let me make clear, I understand we’re not talking 800 sq. ft. now. Yet, it was on this that it says 800. I understand now that he’s willing to waive the variance for the height, but to what? Some of this seems pretty cavalier, and I will say absolutely, there isn’t anything he hasn’t done that hasn’t been first class. I will say unequivocally, Bongero, if I had the money, I’d have him build me another castle. But the problem is, that’s not a land of castles, and this is a residence that when he moved in, he expanded in all four directions. He did a fantastic job. Absolutely fantastic. Then last year, with the help of Bongero again, he expanded up. Now I know some people that had their own ideas about whether that looks great or whether it lacks something. That’s his prerogative. That neighborhood is unique. That neighborhood is a tightly knit neighborhood that if you’ve lived here a long time, that street’s had a history of not always good things. But, the tightness of the community is such that what’s problematic here, and why I’m here, Jimmy, is there’s no communication. I’m here because I don’t have any answers. I asked, “Do you have any drawings,” and the response was, “City’s got them.” So, I need to send something on something I don’t have any information about. Now I’ve gotten some of it tonight, but I do understand everybody else’s concern. I don’t know that I’m that critical, but I know that necessarily, when you’re looking at the variances, it becomes a function, sometimes if nothing more than neighbor trouble. I’ll call – you know the elephant’s in the room now, and I understand the legitimacy of their concern and I understand Mr. Fisher’s desire to improve in a very proactive way, his home and the community. But I think one of those concerns should also be this issue of conformity. I don’t live next to Neverland. I don’t want to live next to Neverland, and I’m not implying that that’s what it’s going to be. This house is fundamentally sound and it’s fantastic. It’s beautiful. But when I get sent something like this and I have no information. I haven’t seen these renderings. Henzi: Here, you want mine? Myres: Sure. Bongero: It looks better than that in the drawing, though. That rendering’s not accurate. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: How so? Bongero: The drawing, if you look at it, there’s – that was just a rough sketch for Jim. I mean the drawing – Petitioner: Right – Bongero: – was submitted for permits. It’s a little bit different than that. And the only reason we’re putting the foundation in first is because the pool guy wants that disruption done so he can get around back in there, and know what room he’s got to work to to get his pool height set. So he wants the foundation in first, not necessarily the structure, but the foundation so he can work off his grade heights. Myres: Well, I think one of the concerns I share with the neighbors is, not withstanding the sovereignty he has to do things as he wants, as the extent to which the plan is going to reflect the execution of – we’re dropping 2 ft. off the ridge line? There’s probably not a home in there – let me back up. The great majority of the homes there, their ridge line is under 16-ft. max for the home. I don’t know whether or not it affects me. I know that the grade changes, yeah, it does affect them. It would have been nice if there had been some communication, some conferring, “I’m asking for a variance.” Guess what, maybe it would behoove me to say, “Let me see,” instead of in an object way just say, “I’m going to ram-rod it. I’m sending it to ZBA, and we’ll see who shows up.” So, it’s a contentious issue. It speaks in no way to the quality of Bongero, nor does it speak to his desires. But it’s an issue of conformity, and it’s an issue of conferring with some of the neighbors so that some of these issues don’t become issues or aren’t issues; and that’s all I’ve got to say. Henzi: Thank you, Mr. Myres. Is there anybody who wants to speak for or against the project? Stawora: Hi. Henzi: Hi. Stawora: My name is Susan Stawara. I live at 16885 Mayfield. I’ve lived there for 27 years. And I’m here; I have to agree with my neighbors. You know, it’s a charming neighborhood in there, having, you know, a lot of privacy. When all the trees came down, it’s – when – and all the foliage is off, it’s – you know, it’s like barren. And when they – you know, the building goes up, I, you know, have to agree that it’s right down our block, you know, is what you see another, like, building. And without – I mean neighbors can – you know, trees back there, it could help block it. But, when your trees – you know most of the time, from spring through winter/fall – I’m sorry – fall through spring, it’s very – you know, when all the leaves come down, they are visual. And I’m just afraid, too, whether people will, you know, start taking down more trees. It’s just that time for me to respond. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? Looks like that is it. Oop, there’s another one. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 117 May 24, 2011 Hatfield: My name is Larry Hatfield and I live at 16930 Mayfield Street, which I’m on the east side and I’m not looking out my backdoor into your back - into your place. But, I’m only here on behalf of the – what you have a comment from the – Marilyn Nairne, and she’s an 80-year-old person that sent a reply to you and stated that she was strictly against it. And now, you got to remember the neighborhood, and everybody has commented on. It’s a unique neighborhood. I lived – excuse me – there 10 years, and it’s like being up north. So, do we want to change that? Everybody has their own problem. They need – they – I mean, you’re making a request, and it’s his property. He can do what he likes as long as it’s within the Zoning bylaws. So – but my comment is on behalf of the neighbor. She doesn’t like it. She rejected it and you received a letter. So, it’s a unique neighborhood. That’s what I’m commenting on. That’s all I have to say. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? I think that’s it. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: Lawrence Webb, 16731 Mayfield (objection letter was read). Marilyn Nairne, 16855 Mayfield (objection letter was read). Kenneth & Constance Roberts, 16711 Bell Creek (approval letter was read). Margaret (Balint), 16750 Bell Creek (approval letter was read). Aloe: What’s the address? Caramagno: 16750 Bell Creek. And, Joseph Abela, Jr. (16712 Bell Creek; approval letter was read). Henzi: Is that it? Caramagno: Yeah, that’s all. Henzi: Okay. Mr. Fisher, you have the opportunity to make a closing statement. Petitioner: Okay. As we heard, I mean the total confusion on the square footage, you know. It’s 400 enclosed sq. ft., with a 600 – or a 200 sq. ft. overhang. It was never my intent to ram-rod anything; go through the due process. Anybody could have walked up to my door and asked me, knocked on my door and asked me, “What your plans are; what – you know, can we see what you’re talking about?” The one woman talked about – I think wrote in took down all our trees; you know? We didn’t take down all our trees, if you’ve been back there. We took down 10 trees in the backyard. One woman came up and said we – I said, “A couple.” I never said a couple. I’ve already planted 13 trees. I plan on planting 40 more trees. I plan on shielding everything in here. It’s not a house. Four hundred square foot enclosure is not a starter house, you know. It’s a good 150 ft. from the back of the houses behind me to the back of the structure I would like to build. The alternative is another addition, and then I will take down more – I would have to take down more trees to get around it to get to the pool. There’s just a lot of confusion around it. And, I have young kids. W e’d like the space in our backyard. We had to take down some trees from my house that was 60-years-old that needed City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 117 May 24, 2011 trees away from its house to give us the land to be able to put in a pool. I appreciate and respect their opinions. Appreciate them coming in and expressing them. You know, thank you for listening to me. Henzi: I had a question about the trees. You’ve got existing large trees shown on the diagram, but the structure isn’t blocked by trees. Petitioner: It is. It’s just stopped there. There are mature trees still between – Henzi: Just not shown on your diagram? Petitioner: Just not shown on the diagram. I mean we go back another, you know, 80 ft. to the property line. Henzi: Okay. Anything else? Wicher: With all due respect, I appreciate the opinions of the people who live on Bell Creek, but they’re not the ones that are going to have to look at this building. People on Mayfield – Henzi: Mr. Fisher, anything else? Petitioner: I don’t, no. Wicher: – are the ones that have look at this building. Henzi: Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Harb. Harb: This is a unique case because, usually, when we have a 30,000 sq. ft. piece of property, the Petitioners are usually before us to put a thousand square foot, you know, garage to help store the equipment that it’s going to take to maintain the property; okay? This is the same thing. This is almost an acre. It’s 33-thou (sic) – or 38 to 39,000 – Petitioner: It’s close to 39. Harb: – sq. ft. It’s almost an acre. It’s RUF. The Petitioner is asking for additional storage to be able to take care of their land on their property. It’s not grass. It’s a pool. And in order – and it’s not – you know, 800 sq. ft. on a – almost an acre, the – is not excessive. We’ve approved a thousand square feet all the time, an addition to the garage. I also feel that we’ve done this before on Seven Mile – near Newburgh. We approved, you know, a cabana or house, whatever, on an excessive piece of property. I believe that this is tastefully done. I do not believe that 400 sq. ft. storage room and bathroom for – to take – you know, to take care of the pool needs is not excessive. A 2 ft. overhang is not excessive – 200 sq. ft. overhang is not excessive and with – along with a 200 sq. ft. shed is not excessive for an acre property. I think this will add value to the neighborhood, and I will be in support. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I’ll be in support of this. I believe this property is meticulously taken care of. Everything I’ve heard tonight was people fearing or – actually, I heard more about trees. They’re mad at the Petitioner because he took down trees than anything else. And my opinion, the trees were his to take down. So, I just think I can support this. I don’t think it’s excessive in any way. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: Well, I think for starters, I think you’ll go a long way to beat the beauty of this home. From the street, it’s – the landscape is just a manicured piece of art, and that was done by Bongero also I believe. Petitioner: The landscaping was not. It was another Livonia company. Sills: Okay. Petitioner: Paramount Landscaping. Sills: But the home is very beautiful, and when I went back there today, I had the pleasure of talking to Mr. & Mrs. Fisher and there was no sign of anything from Mr. or Mrs. Fisher to detract from the neighbors or the neighborhood. They’re straightforward and they just wanted to beautify their property, and by doing so, I can’t see where it would detract from the neighborhood either. It’d have to just enhance the neighborhood and make everybody else’s place look pretty good. In fairness to the neighbors that have been here tonight, I understand their feelings, too, because it kind of gives you unknown feeling. I have friends of mine who lived on Mayfield. I have a very good friend of mine who lives right at the dead-end of Mayfield, Mr. Kize (phonetically), and Ron and Marlene. And they have three acres there. I don’t’ see them here tonight, so they’re obviously not objecting to anything. But, I can support this. I can understand Mr. & Mrs. Fisher’s feelings. The other thing is they’re putting a ton of money into this thing, and just to beautify their neighborhood in one of the best subdivisions in Livonia. So, I will be in support. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I’ll also be in support, and the reasons why I will be is that, first of all, I mean they want to have a pool. Okay, they want to have a pool because they have children and they have family. Most people that have a pool like this want a place for people to go to use the bathroom, change their clothes; and it would be impossible for them to put anything more on the back of their house without totally destroying the back of their home. So, the need to have this building to function with the pool, you know, I think they go hand-in-hand. We have granted other variances for pool houses: Fitzgerald Street and Seven Mile; Greenland. We had one last summer. People with pools do want a structure to service the pool and have people be able to use the pool. This is a beautiful building. It’s not excessive for this size lot. Just like Mr. Harb said, we’ve had City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 117 May 24, 2011 people come in here and ask us for variances for buildings that were bigger than their house. Many, many times we’ve had that. This is nowhere – anything even close to that. A 400 sq. ft. building to service this pool, I just don’t see the excess, so I will be in support. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, clearly, you’ve got your support already, but the – I – this is a helluva investment on this property, in addition to what you’ve already done with the home. I think it is beau – I – when I looked at it, I thought, “Wow, this is beautiful. I bet there’ll be no objections to this plan.” I looked at this, I said, “What a well thought-out plan. What a complete well thought-out plan.” And I still feel that way. I think if you’ve got a problem here, it’s not sharing it with your neighbors. You said they could have come over and knocked on the door any time they wanted. You could have done the same, and it appears you didn’t. That’s, perhaps, some fault of yours. It doesn’t change our minds. This is a beautiful plan. The only thing that I think concerns me is – I wasn’t out. I didn’t come into your backyard. I didn’t go back there today and look. I looked from what I could see in these drawings. My concern would be, and at least from this drawing, there are no trees behind this building. There’s no – I see Spruces here, which look like they’re pretty good size – Petitioner: Right. Caramagno: – Spruce trees. Petitioner: Right. Caramagno: I don’t understand why there can’t be more – Petitioner: Oh, there can be. There can be. Caramagno: – behind here to completely – Petitioner: That property – Caramagno: – block this from the people behind you. Now I’m not saying put in 45-ft. Spruces, but I’m saying put in something that’s a respectable size that will grow and block this beautiful pool house from folks that don’t want to look at it. If there was something that I would say must change for my approval that would be it. Other than that, I think this is a gorgeous plan. Petitioner: It’s just cut short. It will be shielded and it will be protected and hidden, if you will. Caramagno: Do you know what it’ll be shielded with? Petitioner: When it will be shield? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: What it will be shielded by. Petitioner: I don’t. I’m – we’re going to use Paramount Landscaping, and Steve Simon does fabulous work. And – Caramagno: I’m not familiar with his work, but we’re talking about shielding. What size Spruce tree are you talking about putting back there? Petitioner: I’d like as mature as I can get. I mean we have some of those same concerns looking the other way. Caramagno: Yeah, you won’t if you put the big tree in there; right. Petitioner: Right. Caramagno: You’re talking about something that’s, what – Petitioner: It’s still – Caramagno: I’m looking at the shielding and you’re trying to look me out of here. Petitioner: It’s still pretty dense back there. I mean it’s not like – I mean unless you’re putting something in narrow – I mean you’re not putting in a 40 ft., I mean you know, Maple tree or something like that without disrupting other things. Caramagno: No, no, I don’t think so. And maybe this isn’t even the right time to talk about; that’s just one of my concerns that I probably should have brought up earlier. But, I’d like to see good coverage with a Pine-type tree that doesn’t affect these people in the wintertime. They’re going to look at Pine trees somehow, someway. That’s what I’d like to see; that’s my comments. Thanks. Petitioner: Sure. Henzi: Yeah, I’ll piggie-back on Mr. Caramagno’s comments. I can’t approve this tonight, and I’ll tell you why. First of all, let me say this is an awesome plan, there’s no doubt about it. But, I am very sensitive to the uniqueness of this neighborhood. I think this case is unique because that neighborhood is as close to the city of Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills in Livonia that we have. And we’ve got – this is – to me, this is akin to the big-box issues that the city of Birmingham has. So, the trees do add character to the neighborhood. Felling trees does change the neighborhood. Every Member of the Board drove past your house and drove past all the other properties that are on the agenda for tonight. I got as far back as I could without walking on your property. It appears to me that there are a lot of trees, but I agree with Mr. Caramagno. I’m – that this should be completely blocked, because I think that that’s the nature with this neighborhood. I understand that this Board has approved pool houses on Fitzgerald. To me, that’s distinguishable, for one key fact: The property on Fitzgerald was completely blocked by trees and was a huge lot. It consisted of several parcels. Again, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 117 May 24, 2011 it’s a beautiful plan, but I think that it is going to change the nature of the neighborhood. And because there’s already consensus, I’ll just ask that the Board Members consider something like Mr. Caramagno suggested that there’s complete blockage as best as the Petitioner can do with mature trees. So, floor’s open for a motion. Harb: All right. I’ll give it a try. Upon Motion by Harb, supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-22: James Fisher, 16780 Bell Creek, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct a “pool house” (accessory building) in the rear yard while maintaining an existing accessory building resulting in excess number of accessory buildings, building area, and excess height. Number of Buildings Building Area Allowed: One Allowed: 200 sq. ft. Proposed: Two Proposed: 800 sq. ft. Excess: One Existing: 200 sq. ft. Excess: 600 sq. ft. Building Height Allowed: 16 ft. 0 in. Proposed: 17 ft. 9 in. Excess: 1 ft. 9 in. Petition as amended at the 5/24/11 ZBA meeting: Number of Buildings Building Area Allowed: One Allowed: 200 sq. ft. Proposed: Two Proposed: 800 sq. ft. Excess: One Existing: 200 sq. ft. Excess: 600 sq. ft. The property is located on east side of Bell Creek (16780) between Bloomfield and Six Mile Road, be granted as modified for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because Petitioner has a large lot and is in need of additional storage for maintenance equipment. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because with the addition of a swimming pool, additional space is needed to house pool accessories, along with pool maintenance and equipment supplies. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the proposed pool house is tastefully designed and will add value to the neighborhood. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 117 May 24, 2011 4. The Board received three (3) letters of approval and three (3) letters of objection from neighboring property owners, along with eight (8) opposing neighbors in attendance. . 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low- density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted as modified with the following conditions: 1. That the height of the pool house shall not exceed 16 ft. 2. That the pool house shall be built as proposed on the plans which were presented to the Board, except for the height. 3. That the rear of the pool house shall be screened with Evergreen-type landscaping. 4. That the variance is good for one (1) year. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Harb, Pastor, Aloe, Caramagno, Sills NAYS: Henzi Henzi: Variance is granted with the four conditions. I’ll read it to you one more time: The building height has to be 16 ft. or less; you have to build it as presented, other than the height that is; you’re to screen the rear of the building with Evergreen-type greenery; and it’s good for one year, which doesn’t mean it expires that one year, it means that you’ve got one year within which to commence construction. Thank you very much. Petitioner: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 117 May 24, 2011 _____________________________________________________________________ (8:50 #2/1163) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-23: Roberts Building Company, 36857 Schoolcraft Road, Livonia, MI 48150, on behalf of Lessee Better Life Canine Center, 9562 Telegraph Road, Redford, MI 48239, seeking to operate a dog rescue and training business with future overnight kennel facilities and outdoor fenced area on property, which is located within an industrial zoning. This use is not allowed within this zoning district. The property is located on the south side of Schoolcraft (36855) between Levan and Newburgh. Henzi: Mr. Podina is – we’ll come back to him. Will the Petitioner please come forward? John, anything to add on this case? Podina: Not at this time. Henzi: Any questions for John? Okay. Good evening. Petitioner: Hi. How are you? Henzi: Good. Petitioner: My name is Brenda Woody and I’m the founder of Better Life Canine Center. And quick sip of water; excuse me. I first want to confirm that you guys did receive the letter that we sent, I think about a week ago, basically, countering some of the accusations from the Livonia Animal Control Officer? Henzi: Yes, we did. Petitioner: Okay, so everybody’s read that; so you’re familiar with us? Okay. I just did want to say that I did call the animal control officer and the Department of Agriculture to come to the building. I requested them and I had an appointment for them to come, because I wanted them to walk through the building with me, because I wanted to make sure I was doing everything properly and I wanted to get some insight; only when they left the meeting, I felt very confident that everything went really well. And so, I was a bit surprised when we received the letter in the mail because it really does not portray who we are whatsoever. So, I guess I kind of blame myself. Somehow I did not paint a good mission statement of who we are on that day of that visit. So – but what I would like to do is just tell you a little bit about us, and then, of course, you know then ask me, you know, all the questions that you’d like to about the letter and about us. I want to first show you some boards. We have a phenomenal team behind me, as you can see. I’m very blessed with awesome people. And one of the ladies actually put some of these boards together for me just to – so you can get a visual of who we are. And I felt like a visual was going to be important because of the letter. It really painted us as horrendous people. I didn’t get to recall some of the things that are said in the letter. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 117 May 24, 2011 That’s really not who we are. We’re all – strictly all volunteer, and just really a passion for people and for dogs, and just doing the right thing and trying to make a difference. And this really just shows the – part of the team at PetSmart. We’re partners with PetSmart organization. I’ll come a little closer. And we’re also – we work very closely with Jeffrey’s Animal Hospital. This is the Healthy Paw Veterinarian Hospital. But again, just to give you a visual. This is a fashion show, something that we do annually, is a fashion show. Here, just some training. We really focus a lot on training and rehabilitation. Rehabilitation to us is dealing with a dog – a barking dog, a dog that jumps, a hyperactive dog. So a lot of things we do are exercise-oriented. We teach them how to ride the treadmill, on the bicycle. We have a play set. We actually rent space from – now, in Garden City. It’s called “Me and My Shadow.” It’s a swim and fitness center for dogs, and we rent space there now three days a week. And we have five different animal mediators that we work with. And, not just work with, they’re actually on our staff. We pay them, and they do house calls for us. And we’re looking to add on as many trainers as we possibly can because we need as much help as we can get because that is our focus is the training of the dogs. None of our dogs are placed in a home without having a basic level of obedience. They all must know sit, stay, come, and all the basic commands before they’re even allowed to leave us and go to a home. When we introduce a dog to the home, if it’s necessary, or if there’s another dog in the home, there are animal mediators who come with us to do the introduction to the dog – to the family. So, we’re very, very stringent on the training. And I could not do this if I wasn’t doing the training aspect. This is what – we get to really see the fruit of our labor because our dogs are totally transformed into wonderful dogs. We develop relationships with all the people we adopt out to, because another thing that we do is offer free training to all of our adoptive parents. So, we have relationships with all the families that we adopt out to. So another whole arm of what we do, Better Life Canine Center, is training. So we have – that’s part of the reasons that we rent the space at Me and My Shadow. It’s become very costly for us, and the space – we just don’t really have the space that we need to do the things that we like. As you can see – I don’t know if you can see the four pictures in the corner, that’s basically an agility thing that we do with our dogs, also to build confidence. And this is something that we work with our families wherein the kids are always involved. Kids come to training also. We don’t do any adoptions unless, you know, all – everybody’s on the same page. They must all be part of the training process. Here are just some examples of just some of the families that we’ve adopted to. This is an example of the animal behaviors, you know, doing the – help with the introductions. We make sure that – because the – you know, the people are very well aware of how to introduce the dog, you know, to little ones, and – that’s it again. And then we have another board here – and then, a lot of it is wonderful testimony. And many of the dogs that we get in here, at the top actually, if you look at this guy, this guy is Woody. He’s from a gentleman that had passed away, and he had worked as a service dog with his previous owner and he’s now a service dog for this lady here, Iona. So, most of the dogs that we get are all from phone calls that we get. Dogs that come to us are from people that have health issues; people that have gone to assisted living, had to go into assisted living; people that have passed away. We get calls from vet hospitals. We get calls from social workers many times. We get calls from, sometimes, other rescues. We’ve had animal control officers from other cities call us. And so, really, what we provide, it’s a service that we do, and we City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 117 May 24, 2011 really take in pride and joy in working with folks that call us and help them through the issues. Many times people call and want to surrender a dog, and it may be behavior issues. We have them come in and we do an assessment and evaluation of the dog. We’ll work with the folks the best that we can. There’s many occasions people want to surrender the dog, but because we’re able to help them with some of the issues, whether it’s just – the training, helping them with dog food, helping them with a low-cost veterinary care. And that’s another whole thing that we do, too, and we do that now, Me and My Shadow, is we have Jeffrey’s Animal Hospital, they have a mobile vet unit. And we do low-cost vet clinics also. So the building that we’re looking at on Schoolcraft is just perfect for us because of everything that we want to do. And what we do is – all the dogs we have our foster-based. We are not – unfortunately, from my understanding, because of – we might have to have dogs overnight, even if it’s one dog here and there, we have to be labeled a “shelter.” We do not want a shelter environment. The building is to be used for an agility course. It’s going to be used for group training classes, puppy training classes. It’s going to be used for a walking track for leash walking. That’s a real big thing that we teach people how to have their dog under control. I am the – all of us are firm on your dog must be under control and walking at your side. And so – and it’s – and some people, we don’t even let them – allow them to adopt until they come to training sessions and prove to us that they can have a strong leadership with that dog that they want to adopt. And if we think it’s too much of a dog for them, we will not adopt the dog to them. That’s how stringent we are. But the facility is going to be the training center, but also it has a set – the way it’s laid out is just perfect for us because it also has a separate area where we can have our administrative offices. A lot of what we do is raise the money, fundraising; on the phone, phone work. A lot of what we do we – we’re 24/7 on the telephone, and that is one of my things. I said I want – I look at it as customer service. When somebody calls us in need, we call right back. And even though there’s – sometimes the calls we can’t stand to make, but we make them to – and that – you know, to talk people through the situation; or, tell them right up front within 15 minutes that they call us, “We can’t help you with this dog. We are sorry. You know, we’re full. We can’t.” And that’s a call – and that’s how we have to answer at many times, unfortunately. We’re not going to take in so many dogs that we cannot do what we do at – with excellence at all. So – and as I told the animal control officer, if we ever had dogs overnight, I foresee six to eight dogs at a time. I don’t think she understood, because in her letter, she didn’t really understand why we’d only have six to eight dogs, because it’s not a shelter. We don’t want our dogs in a shelter environment. We want them in foster homes. We call it a “home preparation/obedience training program.” We can’t do what we do if a dog’s in a shelter environment. We don’t want dogs in crates sitting there barking. That goes against everything that we believe in. And – but another big thing about the building is the square footage is phenomenal, and we really weren’t looking for that much square footage, but it was just a blessing that Tim Roberts, the owner of the building, is giving us a phenomenal deal. And he’s just a wonderful man that has been working with us. And so – and yeah, and what we also would like to do, we have the space so we’ll be able to do fundraisers. We can do agility tournaments in there. We can do fashion shows there. We can do teaching a sem (sic) – excuse me – teaching seminars for the public. I just – honestly, I feel like we would be a blessing to this community. I strongly believe in it so much that I feel that a Better Life Canine Center should be in every city across America because it’s such a City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 117 May 24, 2011 service. It really is. If only you could be – take the calls that we get everyday. It’s a constant. People are moving, they’re downsizing to apartments. You know, people that are ill; that’s really common. People that are ill, health issues, and we’re taking their dogs in for them. I mean it’s such a blessing with some of these folks, you know, because they would have no other option but take their dog and drop it off at a shelter. Many times, the dogs that we get are not adoptable. They’re older dogs. They have health issues. You know we have – you know, we’ve had dogs with, you know, hearing issues, blindness, and diabetes. We care for them. That’s another thing that we stand for, too, is if we – if dog comes to Better Life Canine Center, it’s going to get the best training and it’s going to get the best vet care. If it needs an orthopedic specialty, then we’re going to – we will raise the money and we will have what that dog needs. And we have a great team. We have the ability to really do great at our fundraising. We – what else do I want to add about us? I think that – I guess that really sums us up. Hopefully, preferably, I painted a better picture for you of what – who we are and what we’re doing. And, I’ll let you ask me some questions. Henzi: Sure. Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: I – Petitioner: Thanks. Henzi: – had a couple. Under what circumstances would Better Life Canine Center need to house six to eight dogs overnight? Petitioner: Well, if somebody calls us. Let’s say somebody calls us and all the foster homes are full, and we might get a dog that needs to have vet care; I need the animal behaviorist to look at it; I want to work with it a little bit. The first 72 hours are really kind of crucial when you first get a dog. That’s when you’re going to deal with separation anxiety stuff and that’s when – and I’m more of an expert in that area of doing that, and a couple other folks are, too. A lot of our foster parents I wouldn’t consider experts at dealing with separation anxiety and all that stuff. I want to assess that dog first before I put it into a foster home. We’re very particular on what dogs go to what foster home. You – some of our foster homes can only take a laid-back, soft easy dog. Some other folks that are a little more athletic, you know, they’ll get out there and walk the dog each day. I need to know this and know where that dog’s going. And we move quick, fast and efficient. So if I get a dog, we’re on it. It’s straight to the vet. It’s working with me. I can really – me and a couple other folks, we – we’ll know that dog’s solid temperament, you know, immediately, within that first 72 hours. Then I feel more comfortable and secure when I do put it in a home because I know that dog. I will never take a dog I don’t know and just put it in a foster home. I don’t feel comfortable with that. A couple situations, yes, if I can know it is a, you know, old – soft, old, you know, English – what do they call the big old long hairy things. But that’s the reason – Henzi: How often do you think that – or how often does that happen – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: How – Henzi: – that you’ve got to house dogs overnight? Petitioner: To be honest with you, as we grow, I’m saying there’s probably going to – on a consistent basis, I would say there’s going to probably be six to eight dogs in there. I – up just – I’ve given myself a buffer. I just want to be honest. I mean I preferably, we don’t have to have the dogs stay overnight. I – but I have – and that’s one of the big things we’re focusing on now is just really our foster parent program and building that. And we’re doing great on that because we treat them like gold, you know, because they are gold to us; you know? We are very blessed with the awesome foster parents we have. We try to make life as easy on them as possible as they care for our dogs, and also, they become part of the adoption process. They get to see the application, so they get to know in their heart that the time they spent with that dog and what they did to that dog. They get to see the fruits of their labor because they get to see the success of the happy testimony, the wonderful family that that dog goes to. And as we have more and more foster parents experiencing this, we’re starting to build that more and more. Henzi: Can you tell us a little bit about the operation of the center? For instance, how many folks drop off, pick up; what are the hours of operation; that sort of thing. Petitioner: It’s mostly going to be scheduled dog training classes is what’s going to be going on. I’m going to probably be there 24/7, to be honest with you. I live right down the street. I live very, very close, and there’s actually another gentleman, Al. He’s here, too, and he’s retired also, and he’ll pretty much be on board with me most of the time also. Another lady in our organization, Ann Marie, she’s retired. And, Kendall is another one that is retired. So, there are a handful of us that have the flexibility in our schedules to be there most of the time. So the schedule would be – training classes would be scheduled throughout the day, and in the evening, there would be opportunities for a trainer to do classes, one-on-one training. Throughout the day, I might be – you know, I’m scheduling foster parents to come in. A lot of the time I’m going to be, you know, scheduling foster parents on different days, at different times to be rotating coming in. I think that our volunteers – we’re probably going to have three or four different areas set up with desks, computer. Again, a lot of the - the other – a whole other half of what we do is all administrative: Telephone, fundraising. That’s a – I mean that’s a big focus of what we have to do because we have to pay the bills. We have to pay for the lease. Another thing that we do want to do is – that’s why we really do set ourselves apart from other rescues. Other rescues don’t do the training at the level we need to – that we do, and they need to and we see a need for that. So, we also would offer classes at a discounted price to other rescue groups that need just basics, teaching their dogs how to walk on a leash, you know, and walk – and, you know, have the dog under control. That’s a big thing, a dog staying, coming, and be able to walk on a leash. And, as we’ve been doing the training, and we’ve had the other facility, we’ve had more and more people wanting training, so I probably have a good – it’s become another whole arm of Better Life Canine Center becoming this dog trainer, which it wasn’t the intention, but now we have other customers that are coming in. I can – I work with them with the basics, but if they have a dog that has more issues than City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 117 May 24, 2011 what I can deal with, I gear them to the animal behaviorist. I’m big on one-on-one personal training with the trainers and for people to bring the trainers into their home. So many times, people are working with me, and if I see if it’s necessary, I’m encouraging them to get that trainer into your house to work on whatever issue that you have going on. A lot of people are dealing with fence jumping, dogs darting out the doors, things like that. And, the household family’s not being in unity as far as how they’re dealing with the dog issue. So we really encourage people – your household, getting unity, deal with the issues so you can have peace in your house. I’m big on having peace. I want to have peace in my own house and I want peace in our fosters’ house. That’s why I – the intake really – I need to have a building to have the intake, because right now if a new dog comes, I have a – my private kennel license. I’m in Westland. But if a new dog comes, it comes to my house. And – which is fine, but I see us – thanks to Facebook, I think, we’re growing. People are learning about us and we’re getting more and more calls and more and more emails, and there is a need for what we do. There is a – definitely a need. Henzi: Okay. A couple more questions. There’s an April 28th, 2011 letter in our packet from – Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: – the City’s Director of Inspection. Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Henzi: And in it, he writes that if this is approved, then there’s going to have to be some changes to the building. For instance – and he’s got some requirements: “Qualified staff members shall be present at all times animals are present in the building,” and he’s got a few others. Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: Are you familiar with that letter? Petitioner: I never received that letter. Henzi: I’ll read the others two – Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: – or the other three. “This site shall not be a kennel. Provisions shall be made to confine all noise, confusion and odor...to the premises.” Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Henzi: “All disposal and cleanup of rubbish, litter and waste be accomplished according to code” -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Henzi: – “city ordinance and state law...so it is not obnoxious or offensive.” Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Henzi: “Nothing should be stored outdoors.” Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Henzi: If there are barrier-free issues, you’d have to bring the building up to code – Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: – with, you know, ramps, for instance – Petitioner: Right; okay. Henzi: – or doors. Petitioner: Uh-huh. Henzi: And then he suggests talking to the Department of Animal (sic) – Agriculture and animal – Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Henzi: – control officers. So, my question – Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Henzi: – with respect – Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: – to this letter is if there are building code issues that need to be addressed, do you have any problem with that? Petitioner: No, absolutely not. Henzi: Okay. My next question – Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: – within our packet, there is an email Jorda – Petitioner: Uh-huh. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: – Livermore, with the Department of Agriculture. Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Henzi: And it’s addressed to you and it is dated May 2, 2011. And Jorda stressing in this email that you are supposed to, on behalf of Better Life – Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Henzi: – Canine Center, to apply for licensure – Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Henzi: – through the Department of Agriculture & Rural Development – Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: – that the application process starts with you sending in an application, and it’s not completed until the building passes a pre-licensing inspection. There’s no guarantee the shelter will pass its first pre-licensing inspection and she invites you to contact her to look into this process. Petitioner: Yes, and we’ve got that application. Henzi: So that’s my question – Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: – what’s the status of the application? Petitioner: That application is in, so that’s – Henzi: What – Petitioner: – all I know. It’s been – one of the gals on our team has already got – they downloaded the application, filled out the application, it was a very basic, simple application, and sent that in. So – Henzi: So, you’re waiting for the Department of Agriculture & Rural Development to come and inspect the building; is that right? Petitioner: No, from my under – yeah, I – yes, I know they need to come before we can move in; yes. But from what I understand, I need to get clear, while that’s – while they have that application, I’m still going to get – shooting to get my variance, and then they will be coming out and they’ll be doing that inspection. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 56 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: Does that process by the state include not just approving the building, because she talks about that in her email, but does it also have to approve the nature of your business? That is, does – is somebody going to have the final say of, “Yes, you’re qualified to do this,” or, “No, you’re not.” Or, “This isn’t” -- Petitioner: No. Henzi: – “the right building for you.” Petitioner: No, I – well, Jorda – I spoke with Jorda – Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: – and she was very supportive of what I had to do, and it was basically just things like the flooring and to make sure everything has to be sterile. And she explained the different coatings that the furniture had to have and the floor. So those are the things that they were looking at. But she had told me personally that she thought the building was phenomenal, it was great, and things that I had to do, and to call her any time as we continue the process. So right now, everything is painted. The floor is epoxied, and everything is like solid, fresh; bam. And we kind of left it at that. We’re coming to this meeting seeing how the – you know, as – see we’re moving forward, and then we’re moving forward. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: And she told me every step of the way the process. She encouraged me just to call her and just to make sure I’m doing the proper – but the building itself was phenomenal and she liked the building. She was concerned with – there’s carpet that I have to rip out in a couple rooms, things like that. You’re not allowed to have carpet and have dogs in carpeted areas. That was my only thoughts were that were concerns. Henzi: Okay. That’s all I have for now. Any questions for the Petitioner? Mr. Harb. Harb: Ms. Woody, talk about, you know, operating a dog rescue training business with future overnight kennel facilities. I know that you said you had a kennel business at your house. Petitioner: Yes. Well, no, it’s not – Harb: But it – Petitioner: – a kennel business. I do fostering, you know – Harb: Overnight stays, and you don’t have a kennel license? Do you even need – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 57 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: Yes, I have a private kennel lic (sic) – it’s not a boarding kennel. It’s a private kennel. To even have any dog over 3, you actually – legally, you’re supposed to have a private kennel license. Harb: Okay. When would you expect this business to get a private kennel license? I mean to be able to have overnight stays; right? And – Petitioner: Until I get approved by the Department of Agriculture. Exactly. Harb: So – all right. So, that’s the ongoing process right now, so it’s a 2-track right now getting the zoning approval here, and then also getting the – Petitioner: Right. Harb: – approval – Petitioner: I could still, though, be doing the training, and get in there and moving forward getting the building done, and doing training and not doing any overnight though, I believe, without – I believe. Harb: All right. And there is a letter, somewhere – a letter dated May 3rd, 2011 by Brian Wilson, the Superintendent of Public Service. Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Harb: You’ve seen this; all right. Petitioner: Yes. Harb: That’s – this is the reason why we received our letter – Petitioner: Right. Harb: – from you; is that right? Petitioner: Yes, uh-huh. Harb: Can you address some of the concerns that he had in regard to rescue dog groups in general? Petitioner: Yes. Harb: There’s five points that – Petitioner: Uh-huh. Harb: – in particular that he had. Can you talk about those? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 58 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: Okay. Let me get this in front of me. Let me see, propensity to hoard; is that number one? Harb: Right. Petitioner: I’m not a hoarder. I – yeah, I – you know it is unfortunate because we see it, too, I can see where the animal control officer – I can – I can’t imagine doing her job, to be honest with you, because I know she sees the worst, the worst, and the worst. And you do come across folks that – and I can see where it can happen. A lot of these ladies can do it for the love of the animal, and I say “ladies” because I guess most of them are women a lot of times – get overwhelmed and don’t have a – you know, the finances and don’t have a structured organization, and don’t have a mission state (sic). Our mission statement is not to ever be high-volume of dogs. Our goal is to do small volume and do it with excellence. So, no, of course we’re not hoarders. And, you know, we try to – you know, there’s a couple different situations where we’re trying to help, you know – and a lot of the times these people are mentally ill. So there have been a couple of times where we’ve ran into these folks and we’ve tried to talk to them and tried to get them to put dogs up for adoption, put them on PetFinder; let us help you. You know, we’ve taken food to them. We try to reach out to them. And it – their – sometimes there are situations that you – really you can’t help them. So, I don’t know if that answers your question. Harb: Well, how about the others? Petitioner: Oh, number – the next one: Tend not to report dog bites or handle them improperly (sic) for fear of euthanasia. We have been fortunate. We haven’t dealt with any dog bites, and if we did have a dog bite, I think we wrote on here that we would definitely – we would be dealing with our animal behaviorist and the veterinarian, and do everything that we’re properly supposed to do in dealing with a dog bite. I’m sure the veterinarian – well, as soon as they come in with a dog bite, it definitely has to be reported. So, yeah, we would definitely – we’re in this – I want to work within the law. I want to be a well respected, organized organization. So I’m going to go beyond the call of duty; that’s why I called the animal control officer. I want to be transparent. I want to be up front. I want – I’m not going to do anything to goof this up. We’re a 501(3)(c). I also – for that reason, I can’t do anything – I mean I’m on the up-and-up. And the next one? Harb: Sure. Petitioner: Tend to believe that we can fix any temperament and rehab any animal through training. They tend to not put down aggressive animals with known histories of problems. Their goal to rehabilitate implies dogs that they will be working with already have a history of a wide variety of problems. And I think – again, she’s misinterpreting when I say “rehabilitate.” Rehabilitate to me – and this is – the most situation that you come across are so basic: Jumping dog, jumping the fence; excessive barking dog; puppy nipping, you know that people are blaming – you know, because he never learned not to jump up and not to, you know, puppy nip. And they got sharp little teeth. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 59 of 117 May 24, 2011 So they’re – so – and we’re about has firm as you can be with people as far as all that stuff being unacceptable, and you have to get them under control. So, we’re not dealing with aggressive dogs. We’re really dealing – our whole organization is family friendly. It really is. And we have these fundraisers and people coming in. We want people to come in with their kids and have a hot dog, and have some punch, and watch our dogs do agility. And I know that the bigger picture of what dogs are out there, and I – and it’s horrendous. And I wish they could – you know all come with us, be Better Life Canine Center dogs, but it’s just not going to happen. I can only do what I can do and still keep my life in order, all of our lives in order. And that’s important, all of our volunteers. I want everybody to keep that balance in their home. We’re not going to become nutty dog rescue people and sacrifice our homes, and our husbands and our kids. So, that is who we are and that’s how we – and that’s what we believe. Harb: All right, I’m going to ask you another question. Petitioner: Okay. Harb: All right. So, every Wednesday – Petitioner: Okay. Harb: – I’m listening to the radio, listening to someone from the Washtenaw County Humane Society – Petitioner: Uh-huh. Harb: – talk about a dog on the radio, and – Petitioner: Okay. Harb: – what’s the difference between the Humane Society and this? And why wouldn’t they take your dogs to the Humane Society? I mean they have training and I know that the – like one of the jails, for example, they send their dogs to the jail and they train them for 40 days, or whatever – Petitioner: Right, right. Harb: – that type of thing. Petitioner: Well, it’s – Harb: What makes this different than the Humane Society? Petitioner: It’s not to the level of what we do. They’re not interacting personally with the families that are going to be adopting. They’re not doing training at the level that we are. Any kind of a shelter environment’s a negative environment for a dog to be in because it’s in a – you know, a crated type situation with other dogs and behavior City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 60 of 117 May 24, 2011 issues. It’s stressful for the dog to even be there. So to come – a dog to come from that environment to an adoptive home is – it can be challenging because you really don’t get to know the dog at the level of how we get to know our dog. Our dogs are going to PetSmart. They’re meeting cats; they’re meeting people. They’re going on bike rides. They’re going on the treadmill. They’re going for a walk in the park. There is such a higher level of socialization. And so when you get a dog from us, you’re a hundred percent solid of what you’re getting. They do great things at the Humane Society. They do, but they’re not training focused. It’s not – it’s a whole different thing of what they do. And also, we will – you know, we take pride in every dog that we get and we will go to great lengths to take care of any veterinary care they have. A lot of our dogs are senior dogs that we get. They would not be adoptable dogs. You know, some of the dogs – sometimes you get puppies. They have puppy mane dermatitis. You know, it’s totally treatable; it’s not contagious. But some of these dogs in that situation would be, unfortunately, euthanized, and because of the population of dogs they have. Dogs would come in with kennel cough or a broken bone. Unfortunately, they would probably be euthanized because they’re not adoptable; you know? So, that’s where – and, you know, people that are – have health issues or pass away, they don’t want to put their dog in a kennel at the shelter. That’s devastating, the idea of that. So – I mean that – when they call us, that’s the response, “I don’t want to take my dog to a shelter.” Nobody wants to take, you know, their loved – you know, their dog that they love that they can’t keep anymore to a shelter environment. Harb: All right. Mike, here’s a question. The second from last sentence of this letter says, “To house one unowned dog overnight requires a license (sic) and once a license (sic) is obtained it grants the right to an unlimited number?” Petitioner: Right. Yep. Harb: Is that true, Mike? Petitioner: Yeah. Fisher: This is what I understand to be true of Michigan Department of Agriculture licenses – shelter licenses. Harb: That’s a shelter license. Fisher: Right. Harb: And to get a shelter license that’s overnight stays, and you – you know, once you allow for one, you allow for a hundred more. Fisher: Well, bas (sic) – bear in mind this is unowned dogs, so this is not the same as Four-Legged Friends, or whatever. This is somebody brought this dog in off the street. Harb: Right, Four-Legged Friends, the others that were approved here, at least two others that were approved by this Board, they didn’t allow for overnight stays. It was – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 61 of 117 May 24, 2011 there was an hour of operation, you know, from 7:00 to 6:00, or whatever it was. You know, there was no overnight stays. Well, what would happen, ma’am, if that was a condition that there were no overnight stays. How would that affect your variance request? Petitioner: We can do it. It would be challenging. It would limit us as far as taking in emergency situations if our foster homes are full. I’m – you know I’m limited in how many – you know, on my private kennel lic (sic) – I don’t – there’s really no limit, but I’m limited physically of how many that can come to my home. If that is the only way that we could get in, I mean I would make it work. We would also be open to having a number cap on how many dogs we have there. Because I could see where your dilemma would be. Harb: Wouldn’t someone have to stay with the dogs? I mean you couldn’t just lock the door up and say, “See you tomorrow.” Petitioner: Well, we’d really want to stay with them to be honest with you. Harb: Right. So – Petitioner: We’re that nutty of dog people. Harb: – then all of a sudden, you have other issues. You know, how do you provide for, you know, people to stay there – Petitioner: It’s already on – Harb: – overnight – Petitioner: – if you saw the – Harb: – you know? Petitioner: – inside of the building, it’s phenomenal the way it’s set up. It actually – it has – you know, there’s two showers; there’s four bathrooms. The building’s phenomenal. I mean we’re really – Harb: Sounds like a pool house. Petitioner: Huh? Harb: It sounds like a pool house. Petitioner: It’s – it really is an incredible building. So, if somebody did want to stay, the – it really is – it’s – has the comforts of home. It’s very, very nice, it really is. And we’re really just blessed with the price. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 62 of 117 May 24, 2011 Harb: Now, Mike, does that – Petitioner: So – Harb: – require them, you know, to have something like that? Fisher: To have something like? Harb: Well, you know – Pastor: Someone to be able to stay overnight. Harb: – overnight facilities for people and not dogs. Fisher: Well, I don’t – Petitioner: It’s got a kitchenette and all that. It’s already got a kitchenette, stove, refrigerator; all that’s all there. Fisher: I guess I would say in a typical industrial building, if they’re working multiple shifts, there could potentially be people there overnight. So it’s not obvious to me how this would be different from that. Harb: Okay. Thank you. Petitioner: I didn’t point out and I had to on the outside area. The outside area’s phenomenal that it’s – there’s no residential anywhere near where we’re at at all. There would never be any disruption. The owner of the building – actually, his business is right next to the yard. It backs up to his building. So that is the only person I would ever be seeing, and they are totally supportive of us. Harb: All right. Well, since you asked that question, where would the outside area be? Petitioner: I’m not sure if you – Harb: Would it be east or west of your building? Petitioner: The outside area is actually between the two buildings. So it would be – . Podina: To the south. Petitioner: – south, yeah. Harb: It would be to the south. Petitioner: Uh-huh. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 63 of 117 May 24, 2011 Harb: Okay. Pastor: Here. Harb: Right here. Pastor: Hmm-hmm. Petitioner: And it’s shaped like an L. Harb: Right. Petitioner: Do you see that? It comes up the backside, west side of the building. Harb: All right. So, people are actually going to be driving down that street, though, for part of that now, maybe? Petitioner: Industrial trucks – Harb: Right. Petitioner: – basically. Harb: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Mr. Pastor. Pastor: That same letter Ken was referring to – hold on here – the May 3rd letter, it says you people already moved into it, storing – or keeping dogs in it? Petitioner: No. No. Pastor: Well, it’s very clear in this letter, so is it – it said – more than once it says that. Petitioner: No, she (sic) misunderstood. Where are you at on there? On the other – Pastor: After the five points, it goes down, “City” – let’s see here. “Without seeking the (sic) City approvals, this group has already moved into the building, they were actively working on the building....” So, were any building permits pulled for this building? Petitioner: No, we weren’t moved into the building at any time. Pastor: Were you work – has any building permits been pulled on this building? Petitioner: They weren’t necessary. I had talked to both the gentlemen – I have been down here at city hall many times and talked to the Building Inspector Randy Abraham City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 64 of 117 May 24, 2011 (sic) – Abra – I don’t know if I’m not pronouncing that right; and also Scott Kearfott, something like that? Podina: Kearfott. Petitioner: Yeah. And, they gave me permission that they’re – in there cleaning, painting; that’s all we were doing. The owner allowed us to use the building to have a fundraiser. We had a fundraiser event in there, and that was to raise the money to secure the lease, which we did and we were very successful. And then after that, I had spoke to Randy and them, told them what our intentions were. The owner was totally cooperative. We hadn’t signed a lease at this point at all, but I wanted to go – I’m going on faith and the fact that he had allowed us to use the building; had been so kind to us. Even, I went ahead and I had purchased – you know, a lot of it was personally. I didn’t take it off our Better Life Canine Center money. I personally paid for it and did the physical labor with me and a couple other volunteers. And I was going – I – been going by faith. I wanted to at least get it cleaned up, and even if we didn’t get it, I was just happy to bless the owner because he was such a blessing to us for allowing us to have the fundraiser. At no point was anybody ever moved in. We did stage – for the fundraiser, we staged the area, kind of upstairs, the administrative office area. And there’s a little couch up there and a table. And because that we had our event catered, we were trying to present to them how we were creating a home environment. And we were trying to make it so that volunteer – we want an environment where volunteers want to come because the volunteers are an important part of what we do. So, yeah, Randy and them, they – yeah, Scott had come by there at one point. They knew we were in there. And then every time I was in there, I was in my grub clothes, and scrubbing and painting. Pastor: Well, this says in several – in two different spots that you’ve had dogs in the building. Petitioner: My personal dogs were there with me, yes. Pastor: Okay. And then at the end, it says, “In short they are already using the building without the approval (sic) and without having (the) animal & public safety requirements in place.” Petitioner: I don’t see where that could ever been misinter (sic) – I mean that’s totally interpreted. When Scott came, animal control officer came, each time I’m in dirty paint clothes and I was working. Nobody else was in the building. Al was there with me, that was it, one of our volunteers. Him and I, and my personal dogs. That’s all that’s been in there. The animal control came in there twice; Scott from the city was in there once; and both times, that was what was going on. They might be thinking of the book drive, book drop-off; I just thought of that. We had already scheduled a book drive that we were collecting books, called “Barking” – one of our fundraising programs called “Barking Books.” And we collect books and the resale of the books, a percentage of it goes to – it – well, all the proceeds go to Better Life Canine Center. So, that was already scheduled and the owner approved of that. We had a one-day drop-off. People City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 65 of 117 May 24, 2011 dropped off books. Basically, the side door open, drop the bag off, and that was it on that day. There was no kind of event or other activity going on. It was dropping off books. So, if they consider that – and I talked to the owner, basically, on a daily basis. See, he knew – like when I had the appointment for the animal control officer, he knew they were coming, you know, what was going on. You know, we always had the big bay doors open, so he was – always come by and we were talking. So, this has been very – I’m not in there hiding while I’m in there cleaning and painting. Pastor: We’ve had some of these other – I’ll call them “daycares,” because you’re not really a daycare – dog places come in front of us. They had cut sheets of the type of material they’re using for the floors, the amount of crate space they have, the play areas they have. I see a rough sketch, that’s about it, of what you’re doing with this. Petitioner: Okay. Pastor: You know, they also said that there’s – I don’t know if there was codes, but there were – they had commented that there’s certain square footages per dog and whatnot, and I seen none of that on here to tell us how many dogs you think you’re going to maintain in this place, where you’re going to take them to go to the bathroom; restroom. Petitioner: Obviously, you know, the outside area. Pastor: Well, that outside area’s kind of small. Petitioner: No, it’s a really big outside area. Balcazar: It’s huge. Petitioner: It’s – yeah, it’s very large. Unknown speaker: Have you seen that area? Pastor: Yeah, I looked at the building. I almost bought it. So, yes, I’m familiar with the building. Petitioner: Yeah, that’s a very large outside area. Pastor: There’s nothing here to tell us how many dogs. There’s nothing here to tell us – Petitioner: Well, I did draw – Pastor: – what – we – Petitioner: – I tried to do, you know, the – on the drawing that I gave you, the floor plan. I was trying to – I guess I should have done it a little more extensively. It does indicate a couple spots where there are crates drawn on the far left of your page there. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 66 of 117 May 24, 2011 Pastor: Right. Petitioner: And that – Pastor: But that – are you going to put 10 dogs in each crate? Because it doesn’t tell me that. Petitioner: No. Well, there’s eight crates total in the whole building. So – Pastor: My point is how many – Petitioner: Okay. Pastor: – animals – -- Petitioner: Well, I – Pastor: – are you keeping? Petitioner: I mean I can draw something out better for you, but that’s what I was saying that the goal would be to be able to house, possibly, six to eight dogs at a time. But during the day, and in the evening they’re in training hours, there would be, yes, many more dogs there than that coming in for training classes. But what’s wonderful about the building is how it’s laid out. You could easily enter/exit, and be able to have dogs easily not colliding; and you could have a class going on and somebody – and the other people coming in the door over here to do one-on-one training. It’s just the way it’s laid out is phenomenal. Pastor: I know you love the building. Petitioner: Right. Okay. Pastor: You mentioned it a whole bunch of times. Petitioner: Okay. Pastor: How many dogs are you going to have in this building during the day? Petitioner: During the day how many will we have. Pastor: Any time. Petitioner: Any time. Pastor: I don’t care if it’s night, day – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 67 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: At one time during the day. Okay, here’s an example: There might be six dogs going on in training class; okay? And then, let’s say there are six dogs that came in from – this is – I’m going to give you top numbers that I believe. Foster parents come in with their six dogs; there are six dogs that area already housed there; there are 12. We have a trainer over on the other side working one-on-one with a dog; there are 13. I have a dog over on the treadmill; there are 14. That’s kind of how it would look, and that’s one – you know, that’s – say that’s an hour-and-a-half, and then we’re shifting and they’re all leaving; and then, maybe we’re going down to eight for a little bit; you know? So as far as class sizes, typically – yeah, you’re not going to have 50 dogs in the place. Again, I guess you need to see who we are and what we’re about. We don’t want chaos. We’re not going to have so many dogs that it takes away from the level of excellence of us training our dogs because it defeats our purpose. If we started to get too many dogs, and barking and chaos, then that’s not going to work. So I guess – a lot of it, I guess you just have that – this is how we’ve been doing it and how we’re going to continue doing it. There’s nothing that’s going to change all of a sudden that now we’re going to go into chaos because now we have a bigger building; you know? We have a track record of – over at Me and My Shadow. If you’re not – maybe I should have the owner – her here to testify as far as how we run and how we operate things. In fact, I do have a letter from the vet that I want to read here in a minute. It’s a good letter; I forgot about it. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: Me and My Shadow is the vet. Can you tell me what other group that – is there another organization like yours that you’ve emulated? Petitioner: No. Not that – no, not that I know of. That’s why I feel like there needs to Better Life Canine Centers in every community all across America because I think what we’re doing is phenomenal. As far as – so somebody that you could – Harb: You didn’t walk into a McDonald’s and say, “Oh, I need to build another McDonald’s.” You didn’t walk into another rescue group home – Petitioner: No, this is – I mean – Harb: – and say, “I want – I love this concept and I want to do this, but I want to add that.” Petitioner: No, this is perceived from my experiences of what I’ve been doing and what I want to do, and what I – I know what I want and what I don’t want. I’ve been around dogs for 20 years, and I know dogs. And I know people and I have a love of both. I can’t even stress, and the hearts of even the folks behind me of working with the people that we work with. It is a service that we’re providing. We’re – basically, I kind of look at it as like an adoption agency, a placement agency, a service. Somebody calls distraught, I want to try to – because I know – I want to try to help the situation, and many times I can’t, but I want to tell them, and then make – and try to make them feel better about, “Okay, this is a decision you may have to make on this. We don’t have City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 68 of 117 May 24, 2011 room; everybody’s full. I’m sorry, but I want” – I feel like somebody just needs to be out there doing that for folks, because right now, we get people calling and it’s just heartbreaking because there’s nobody – there’s nowhere they can call that somebody is going to actually return their call that day within a few hours after they call and try to give them an answer. And even if the answer’s not what they want to hear, but they’re at least going to hear some kind words. The whole training aspect that we do is such a need in the community also because I think you’re going to have so many less dogs to surrendered. You’re going to have less people walking down the street with a dog out of control, you know. I’m a strong believer if you’re going to own a dog, you need to have your dog under control. It’s just the right thing to do. It – did I choose to want – huh? Go ahead. Pastor: For right now, yeah. Thank you. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I just wanted to ask you a couple questions, and you said the word “full.” You get a call and your shelter is full. When is it full that you won’t take another – Petitioner: When I don’t have foster parents; there’s not a foster home lined up. That’s why we’re – that’s why – you know, we have a great team on our adoption process and we’re big on taking photos and video, updating on Facebook and on PetFind (sic). We work really aggressively, and doing the training to get these dogs incredible, to turn them into superstars as fast as we can so they’re adoptable so we can get them adopted, because the quicker we do that, we get that dog out of the foster home and we have room for another dog to come in. Aloe: So, what’s the average length of time that you keep the dog there at the shelter before it even gets adopted or goes to foster care? Petitioner: Well, that can really just depend on the breed of the dog. If we get a small little Yorkie, they can go – 2 or 3-years-old, I mean they’re gone in a week. If you get an older dog, you know, 5, 6, 7-years-old, you might have that dog for three months, four months, you know, sometimes. We have a dog named Lucky, he’s a Black Lab, 7-year- old Black Lab, insulin dependent. You know he – now we have a dog in that situation, they’re not going to be a shelter environment. They’re going to be a foster home. So, Lucky is in a foster home, in a loving – with a loving family and living a wonderful life. He’s still up for adoption. If somebody phenomenal comes along, then that’s where Lucky will go. But – yes, so all the situations are – but there’s always a perfect home for every dog every time. I always tell everybody we have a hundred percent success rate. Aloe: That’s not really true. Not every dog is fit to live in a home. Petitioner: Well, the dogs that we have, we have. Aloe: So where do you draw the line at that – that you’ll take – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 69 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: I haven’t had to – Aloe: – any – Petitioner: – draw a line. Aloe: No? Petitioner: As far as am I going to take – I haven’t had to draw a line. I mean as far as – I don’t take many dogs because I don’t – Balcazar: She’s talking about the number of dogs that you’re getting, like when are you full, and I think you answered – Petitioner: Oh, so typically – Balcazar: – when your foster – Petitioner: Okay, go ahead. Balcazar: No, I’m sorry, because I think you answered it, but you continued on. Petitioner: Oh, I think – Balcazar: The foster – once the fosters are filled, that’s where we draw the line. Petitioner: Yeah, there’s no more dogs can come in. Aloe: So you won’t just take – Balcazar: I mean, we don’t put cages – Aloe: – them to your shelter and wait for a foster – Balcazar: We don’t want a shelter. Aloe: – place to open up? Petitioner: No, we can’t because what it will do it – because it’s going to hurt the rest of the dogs that we do have. I can’t have a bunch of dogs in a crate. I can’t have high volumes of dogs and do the training at the level that I need to do because then – Aloe: Well, what do you – Petitioner: – you run in – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 70 of 117 May 24, 2011 Aloe: – market to? Do you market for training of dogs, or do you market that you’re a shelter/adoption facility? Petitioner: Well, I don’t know if we really market ourselves, but I would say we’re a training facility, a training/adoption agency. Aloe: Well, then if you say you’re a training facility, do you market yourself as training facility? Would the public know to come there just to have their dog trained? Petitioner: Oh, yes, yes, yes. Aloe: Well, how do you market that? Where do you put your – Petitioner: What are we going to be doing to market ourselves? Aloe: Right. Petitioner: Well, we have an incredible team behind me. We have a phenomenal website. We have our Facebook page. And once we get into the building, I know our marketing and fundraising team is going to really go to town as far as really getting out there. Pets – you know, PetSmart when we’re out and about. Aloe: But they do their own training at PetSmart. Why would they market you? Petitioner: Well, not that we – they would market us, but when we’re there, we talk to folks. And I’m usually encouraging people to do one-on-one training, and I usually encourage people, whether it’s here at PetSmart, or a personal trainer – Aloe: Yeah. You know what I think – Petitioner: Okay. Aloe: – and I don’t know what – how the other Board Members feel. You know we’ve given two variances lately to – Petitioner: Uh-huh. Aloe: – daycare dog facilities and I have absolutely no problem with that at all. There’s a huge need for it. It’s very controlled. It’s very regulated. You know how many dogs. You know the time of operation. Yours, in what you’re, you know, presenting, just seems to be so uncontrollable, I guess. I mean, I just think you’re going to get these licenses and these permits, and God knows what all you’re going to be doing over there, because you just don’t have that structure – Petitioner: I – we do have that – Aloe: – to the type of business – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 71 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: – structure. Aloe: – that you’re telling us that you have there. Petitioner: We do have that structure because we have it now, and we have had it. We have the most, at one time, 25 dogs, probably, at the most; that’s all we’re able to handle based on the money we have, the trainers that we have, the foster homes we have. Again, we’re a foster-based organization. We’re always going to stay foster- based. The building – Aloe: But there’s no law that’s going to make you stay that way, just like this one sentence here that says when you get your license – “to house one unowned dog overnight requires a shelter license...once a shelter license is obtained it grants the right to an unlimited number.” Petitioner: Well, can we have – Aloe: How do we know what you’re – Petitioner: – a stimula (sic) – a stipulation – Aloe: – going to – what’s going to be – Petitioner: – of a number? We would have no problem with that. Aloe: Pardon me? Petitioner: Can we have a stipulation of a number? We would have no problem with that. Aloe: But how would that ever be enforced? Who’s going to go – Petitioner: I don’t know. Aloe: – over there and know – Petitioner: I – Livonia animal – Aloe: – what’s going on there? Petitioner: – control officer probably. Aloe: Just like people spending the night, how do we know that you’re not going to have a shelter for people there spending the night, too? I mean – Petitioner: I guess at some point – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 72 of 117 May 24, 2011 Aloe: – it’s such a wonderful facility – Petitioner: – you’d have to assume that I’m not a liar and I’m not lying. I’m not saying you’re saying – Aloe: No, it isn’t – Petitioner: – I’m a liar, but – Aloe: – that, and I don’t think that you’re a liar, it’s just – Petitioner: I just – Aloe: – that things kind of like – Pastor: Snowball. Aloe: – they snowball. Petitioner: But isn’t that the point – Aloe: You know, “We’ll just let this one” -- Petitioner: – of the Livonia animal – Aloe: – “person,” and then – Petitioner: Isn’t that the point of the animal control officer? Aloe: Oh, listen, they’re spread so thin they can’t even control the dog calls they get in Livonia. I mean that’s just – Petitioner: I just assume because of – Balcazar: I mean, so what? Petitioner: – the letter that she wrote that she would really be on top of it to really be looking at us, and I am prepared to do whatever it takes to do things right and to be looked at and be under a microscope. I’m will – you know, if – whatever stipula (sic) – because I do understand your concern. I would understand that concern. Obviously, you don’t want a big old barking shelter with a hundred dogs in it, and it would be chaos. I guess I can only show you what our track record has been. You know what, let me – at this point, let me read this letter; it’s really quick. Jeffrey’s Animal Hospital; this is what she wrote. It’s a phenomenal letter. It says, “To whom it may concern” – this is Joanne Jeffrey. Her and her husband own Jeffrey’s Animal Hospital, Farmington. “This is a recommendation letter for Better Life Canine Center. We at Jeffrey’s Animal Hospital work with many rescue organizations, but none is more efficiently run than City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 73 of 117 May 24, 2011 Better Life Canine Center. They do everything possible in helping the animals, including following the doctor’s instructions to the letter. BLCC does what they say they will do, whether it is showing up for appointments on time, bringing in animals promptly for surgery, or meeting with us when promised. They are an extremely well-run organization training their foster owners as well as the dogs they rescue. Volunteers are well-informed of their responsibilities. Their invoices are promptly paid. Better Life Canine Center is directed by honest, hard-working individuals who love animals and show it by taking care of the animals, as well as being responsible for all aspects of training and find great forever homes for their dogs. We have nothing but good things to stay (sic) – say about Better Life Canine Center and would recommend them as people who follow on their end of any promise or contract. Joanne Jeffrey.” That was a beautiful letter, if I must say so myself. Aloe: Okay, thank you. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: We have a letter, dated May 24th, that asserts that you went into someone’s home rescuing dogs without being invited, broke into that house, basically. Can you address this letter? Petitioner: That has nothing to do with me. I do have a feeling you’re talking about Detroit Dog Rescue because I know that was an event that happened a while back. Henzi: There’s a letter with quotes from the Detroit Animal Control Shelter director that suggests that the Detroit Dog Rescue in conjunction with folks who identify themselves as Better Life Canine Center affiliates raided a home in the City of Detroit. Petitioner: I certainly have not raided any homes in Detroit. Henzi: That there’s an investigation. Petitioner: Yeah. So – Henzi: There are some names attached to this. You know, Mr. Pastor asked you are you familiar with this. If – Petitioner: I am familiar with that happening. Henzi: All right. You haven’t seen this letter, though; right? Petitioner: No, I have never seen that letter. Henzi: Okay. You’re familiar with this happening sometime in May? Petitioner: I’m familiar with Detroit Dog Rescue getting dogs Downtown Detroit. I actually – I went to their Facebook page for the first time a couple weeks ago because I’ve been hearing so much talk about Detroit Dog Rescue. And then one of the gals in City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 74 of 117 May 24, 2011 our organization, I think she is friends with some of these folks, but this has nothing to do with Better Life Canine Center. We’re definitely not going around knocking in doors. Henzi: The letter suggests that Barbara Loci and Angie, affiliated with friend Barbara – yeah, Barbara Loci and Angie. Petitioner: And Barbara is involved with Better Life Canine Center. Henzi: Do you understand the concern? I mean I for one am concerned – you’re very nice. You’re well-spoken. You look like you have very nice people that volunteer for your organization. This letter suggests that there’s a group of folks going around raiding homes, and I mean I – is there a show from Animal Planet following them? I have no idea. This is concerning. Petitioner: We – okay. All I can say is – Henzi: So, if you could put this to rest with just a – Petitioner: – I – there’s not much I can say – Henzi: – say what you know. Petitioner: – except that I have nothing to do with that. Nobody – we have nothing to do with that – Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: – at all. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: In fact, I don’t even like the look of what they’re doing because I see them all dressed in black, and hoodies and all that. I’m into teal and pink, and our dogs dress up in costumes. I’m not – yeah, that’s not my – Henzi: When you say “they,” are you saying that this Detroit Dog – Petitioner: The Detroit Dog Rescue. Henzi: – Rescue is some sort of – Petitioner: Yeah. Henzi: – militant – Petitioner: Well, I went on their – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 75 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: – dog rescue agency? Petitioner: – Facebook page a couple weeks ago because I – yeah. So, I don’t know; that’s kind of how it looks. Henzi: It’s at odds – Petitioner: I don’t know they’re militant, but – Henzi: – with your organization? Petitioner: Huh? Henzi: It’s at odds with your organization; is that fair to say? Petitioner: Oh, no, I don’t even know them. No, I’m just saying I am familiar because the story was on the Channel 7 News. Barbara, who is a girl that volunteers in our organization – Loci: That’s me. Petitioner: – I know – Henzi: We’ll get to audience participation in a few minutes. Loci: Okay. Unknown speaker: No, this Barbara. Loci: I’m Barbara, actually, so. Petitioner: Okay, good. So Barbara can – Henzi: Oh, you’re – oh, okay. Petitioner: So she can speak on it. Loci: Yeah. Petitioner: Do you want her to speak right now? Henzi: Sure. Loci: I actually – Henzi: Can you tell us your name and address? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 76 of 117 May 24, 2011 Loci: I’m Barbara Loci. My address is 19316 Woodworth, in Redford. Henzi: Go ahead. Loci: One of our volunteers was actually informed of a hoarder situation, a woman who – she didn’t identify herself as a hoarder, obviously. She said she had a lot of dogs and she kind of got out of control. So, we, of course, got concerned and thought she might need some help. I didn’t know how to handle a scenario like this, although I wanted to be able to help this woman in some way, make sure the dogs were all healthy, so I reached out to other rescues and suggested to them, potentially, we can go and see if this woman actually needs help. And that’s when the other rescues took over, and that would be Detroit Dog Rescue. And it sort of turned into this media frenzy that got out of control. Henzi: Okay. Pastor: Were you there when they broke into the house and whatnot? Loci: I was there when they started pulling dogs out of the house. How they got into the house, I have no idea. I was there with another res (sic) – another girlfriend who rescues for another rescue. But how they actually got – and the police were there, so – Pastor: Well, it says the police were called after they had already broken in. Loci: That I don’t know. I was there when the police were there, so I’m not certain. Balcazar: And that’s actually the second time that they had gone to the home. Petitioner: But – Henzi: What’s your name and address? Balcazar: Sorry. My name is Amanda Balcazar, 9316 Sarasota, in Redford. They had gone – out of the goodness of their hearts, this is what they do – when they got this call to help the lady, make sure that there was food and everything because that is what we do sometimes. So they went one time prior to this on their own and seen, you know, o (sic) - way too many dogs in there, but that’s it. The lady continued to contact them. So, again, out of the goodness of their heart, they wanted to make sure there’s enough food, there’s enough water, and these dogs are taken care of. This is the second visit. They had no intention in going in there and taking out any dogs. They just wanted help to be able to assess and make sure that everything was okay. Loci: No, and my words were very clear to everybody that I said, “You guys, nobody has any room for these dogs; what are you doing? You know, these” – what it turned into was certainly not anything that anybody’s intentions were – we had no idea what was even going on in that woman’s house at this point because it had been a month period City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 77 of 117 May 24, 2011 of time since we had been there. We had hoped there was no dying dogs and all that. But – Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: I got a couple more questions. Within this letter, BLC (sic) is identified as a partner group of Detroit Dog Rescue. Is that true or false? Petitioner: False, false, false. Loci: No, I can actually address that as well. I – Petitioner: I strongly say “no.” Henzi: She already did. Loci: Sorry. Henzi: I’ll accept your answer. Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: Who – when was BLCC founded? Petitioner: That’s why I wish Ann Marie was here. Actually, that’s why we got our 501(3)(c); would have been, I want to say, 4 years ago. So, non-profit status was established 4 years ago. And then, I didn’t do anything really – you know, I’ve – you know, I – Henzi: You answered it; 4 years ago. Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: I got it. Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: All right. You’ve done an excellent job telling us what your organization is about. I’m going to follow up on something Mrs. Aloe said. We’ve approved what have been marketed as “doggy daycares.” I mean that’s – folks came in and said – gave us statistics with respect to how much room a dog should have when, you know, housed in the doggy daycare; why they wanted to do it; that it’s a growing niche, etcetera, etcetera; gave us a business model; hours of operation. And like Mrs. Aloe said, you know, those folks came in and said, “We’re going to open at 8:00 and close at 6:00. The dogs will only be outside from 10:00 to 2:00.” But like Mrs. Aloe said, the nature of your organization is such that there isn’t that kind of structure. So, why don’t you take the next couple of minutes to tell us some parameters about, you know, when are you City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 78 of 117 May 24, 2011 going to be in the building; not what are you going to do, but from when to when. What’s the typical day, and then give us – try to give us some kind of assurances about – that there can be some structure. I’ll give you – you know, comparably, you’re in an industrial area. You know, companies run two or three shifts. I don’t know if anybody’s running 24/7 right now. But you said several times your organization’s 24/7. I don’t know that the Board would approve that or not approve it; but give us some assurances about how this is going to run, because we’re going to wind up dumping this on the Inspection Department and their animal control, and ask them to follow up on this. And, they can only go there so many times. Petitioner: Right, right. Okay. Henzi: And even if they went to your place quarterly – I’m not suggesting this is going to happen – but even if they went quarterly, things could be happening 30 times a quarter that they’ll never see, based on what you’re telling us if this is 24/7. Do you understand what I’m asking for? Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. You just want some structure of – daily, what it’s going to be like. I had talked to a very good friend of mine, a gentleman, Tom, and we’d actually had talked about him possibly staying there overnight to see that shift. So in the morning, I would be getting there at about 7:00 a.m., and the first thing I would be doing would be pottying the dogs that are there; rotating them; feeding them. And then the next thing I would do is I would go into exercising the dogs. And so, say from – up until eleven o’clock, I’m pottying, I’m feeding, and I’m exercising. So by eleven o’clock, they’ve all had some structure and exercise, and they may go into nap time then. By that time, there will be two or three volunteers coming in ready to do work, you know, in the administrative area, being on the phone lines, work on the computer, doing filing, doing cleaning, and things like that. So they’re there during the day. Our animal behaviorist would come in early afternoon sometime. We would start taking one dog at a time, probably doing some specific training for that dog. And let’s say we have five dogs there, they’re each getting some specific training. At the same time, all the administrative stuff’s going on. They’re working on getting foster homes, doing the adoption process. You know, I’m constantly taking pictures, taking videos so I can download them. Come the – during the afternoon hours, also, while the animal behavior’s – Brian Walsh is more likely going to be the one that’s going to be there. He has the flexible hours and how – and he’s the one that helps us mostly. Foster parents would be – you may have two or three foster parents coming in during, you know, noon and four o’clock, and coming in and doing some one-on-one training with them working with their dog. In the evening hours, that’s when probably some class times would start. So, first class time would probably start – we probably have a – you know, maybe a 4:30 class, and a six o’clock class, maybe a 7:30 class. So, maybe, you might have three group classes each night. W hile that’s going on, there might be three or four other volunteers coming in ready to do some specific exercise time with the dog, taking him for a walk, teach him how to ride the treadmill, just leash walking. Dogs would get fed, you know, in the evening. It - yeah, it might be, you know, getting into eight, nine o’clock in the evening, everybody’s cleared out, done with training. The dogs are getting their last meal, getting pottied; going to go to bed for the night; and then it’s shut City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 79 of 117 May 24, 2011 down. And basically – and then preferably on the weekends, you know, we’ll have scheduled – you know, on weekends, there might be, you know, a teaching seminar going on that would be open to the community that we would promote and market through our Facebook and our website, encouraging people to come – you know, to come in. We have a nice network of folks already, we really do, and there really is already a strong need for people wanting to train that we offer. We’re just not set up. I don’t have enough space at the other place. I have to turn people away now. I don’t have enough space. So we might have a training seminar going on. And basically, the Saturday and Sunday – well, Sunday might not look the same. Saturday will probably just look like, you know, Monday through Friday, pretty much the same. Sunday’s probably going to be a quieter day, probably just me going in there and taking care of the dogs, and just having a low-key day with just whatever dogs are there. You know, Tom, the gentleman that – a very, very good friend of our - my – mine and my husband’s, would probably be staying there, and he’s phenomenal and he’s a fix-it guy, and – you know, so he could be handling stuff like that, and he’s responsible, and low key, and would be a perfect, you know, fella to be in that – you know to be there for us. Henzi: Thank you. Petitioner: Hm-hmm. Henzi: Any other questions? Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Let me ask the Inspection Department. You know we used to have several kennels in Livonia. The only one that I can think of that’s left that I see is that one on Six Mile. Podina: Yeah, there’s a couple out there. Aloe: So, who – do you guys pay visits to them, and what do you do? Podina: Yeah, I’m sure Ordinance goes by there periodically being they’re on a main street; you know? We haven’t had any complaints on any of those. Aloe: But this thing that – on this one letter that said that they could have – once they get this kennel license, it’s unlim (sic) – that just bothers me. And it’s like, “Oh, my God.” You know why because people find those places. They just drop those dogs and cats off, and go. I mean I just – so, are they limited? Do you guys check to make sure they’re not exceeding – Podina: Well, looking at Mr. Fisher’s letter, I didn’t think he was going to allow this. Aloe: No, he says no kennels. Podina: No boarding. Aloe: But I was just wondering about the kennels that we do have – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 80 of 117 May 24, 2011 Podina: I don’t have – Aloe: –that are licensed. Podina: – any statistics on that. Fisher: Well, bear in mind what you’re talking about the unlimited number, that’s a shelter license, not a kennel license; two different things. Aloe: Okay, good point. Okay. All right. All right. So you never get any complaints about the kennels; huh? Podina: Not that I’m aware of, no. Aloe: Okay. Thanks. Podina: Matter of fact, one of them just reopened, I believe, last year. It’s actually a residence as well. Aloe: The one on Munger? Podina: Yeah – no, that was Six Mile. Aloe: The one – Podina: It’s next door to the – I can’t remember the name of it right now. I can’t remember the name, but – Henzi: At Six and Middlebelt? Podina: – she actually resides there as well. Sills: That’s the one just west of – Podina: Well, they’re both like in the 30's there, west – east of Merriman. Aloe: Yeah, east of Merriman on the south side there. Sills: Yeah. Henzi: Okay. Harb: Right side. Sills: Right there by that Columbus Credit Union. Henzi: Any other questions? Mr. Caramagno. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 81 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: I got a bunch. I’ve been writing for – write – I might have a cramp in my hand here. Dogs; you said you may have 25 dogs to care for. You said that a few minutes ago. But I see – I’m confused; maybe it’s me. You’re saying six to eight dogs overnight; maybe? Petitioner: Hm-hmm. Caramagno: Going forward; maybe? Petitioner: Right, right; yes. Caramagno: You don’t – not now. I heard 25 dogs that are cared for with foster people. Petitioner: Right. Caramagno: And each foster person can have how many dogs? Petitioner: Well, it depends. I mean whatever their city limit is, so. Caramagno: Well, you’ve got 20 people here tonight. I’m assuming all of them got foster dogs? Petitioner: Not all of them Caramagno: No? So, no – no, not all of them. Petitioner: I wish. Caramagno: In a letter here you had in the Free Press, it says the dogs live at this center with volunteer staffing at all times. What center are they living at now? Petitioner: Right now, they’re in foster homes. Caramagno: It said “living at the center.” Petitioner: I have to see – it says living at the center now, as in “now?” Caramagno: Yeah, this was a quote from you. It says, “Brenda Woody, founder of” – Detroit Free Press. Petitioner: Okay. Caramagno: Detroit News; I’m sorry. “Brenda Woody, founder of the non-profit, cares and trains the dogs like Sheeba in need of permanent homes. There are about 20 dogs in foster homes waiting to be adopted and another 20 waiting to be placed in foster homes.” So I’m assuming these 20 dogs are in some sort of – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 82 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: No. Caramagno: – place now? Petitioner: No, I think that – I’m totally – that – that’s totally incorrect. I’m just kind of smiling because – Caramagno: Okay, let’s – Petitioner: – I don’t even remember even read – Caramagno: – leave it as incorrect. Petitioner: This is – yeah, that’s very incorrect. Caramagno: These numbers are all over the board. We’re not talking about any dogs. Petitioner: Those numbers are all over the board. Caramagno: This says 20; you’re saying six to eight; I’ve heard 25. Petitioner: No, we – Balcazar: We have 20 that are – contacted us. We get emails daily. Caramagno: Okay. Balcazar: And so, 20 are waiting for foster homes. It’s not – Petitioner: If you go to our PetFinder site – Caramagno: All right, that’s good. Petitioner: – right now – Caramagno: I understand that. Petitioner: – that’s how many dogs are up for adoption. Caramagno: When you say “old dogs are kept,” you said 5, 6, 7-year-old dogs, don’t dogs live 14-15 years? Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Caramagno: So if nobody wants a 7-year-old dog, where does he live for his next 7 years? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 83 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: Well, not that they don’t. I’m just saying you may have him a little bit longer. Caramagno: It’s rare; I understand. Nobody wants that elderly dog. Petitioner: They’re going to be in a foster home. Caramagno: So where do they stay at? Petitioner: In a foster home. Caramagno: So they don’t stay with your 25 foster people Petitioner: Yes, in a foster home. Yes, with the – yes. We may have like 25 dogs at a time and they’re all in foster homes. Most homes have one dog per home. Some folk – some people have two dogs per home, if they don’t have any other dogs. Caramagno: Okay. Dog bites; you mentioned dog bites. You don’t – you haven’t – in 4 1/2 years, you had – well, you said 4 years or something like that. Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Caramagno: You’ve had no dog bites in 4 years? Petitioner: No. Caramagno: What is the prop –? Petitioner: No. Caramagno: What is the proper procedure if you should have a dog bite? What is the procedure for that? How do you handle it? Petitioner: For a dog bite? Caramagno: Yeah. Petitioner: Animal behavior – Caramagno: I mean that would be something that – I think you – Petitioner: Like a dog attacked a person? Caramagno: Or a dog gets a – Petitioner: I have – well, I would have to say I have zero tolerance for any aggression on a person whatsoever. I mean – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 84 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: I understand it, but what do you do if it happens? Petitioner: Well, you have to report – I know you have to report it to the police. Like I said, I’m going to do everything according to the law. Caramagno: So you report it to the police, then what happens; do you know? Do you report it to the Humane Society; the police? Who gets reported? Petitioner: I would probably call the animal control officer. I would contact my vet. I would contact our animal behaviorist. I probably would assess the situation, and more than likely, if it’s a situation, it’s probably going to be euthanized – Caramagno: I would think you’d have a very – Petitioner: – if it’s an aggressive dog that bites a person. Caramagno: I would think you’d have a – in your business, your business is dogs, I would think you’d have a very specific process if a dog – Petitioner: If I had a dog – Caramagno: – should bite somebody – Petitioner: – first of all, I’m going to do – Caramagno: – what is that process? Petitioner: – is Brian, the animal behaviorist. I’m going to call Brian, the animal behaviorist, of the situation that happened. I’ll probably already know in my head. If a dog bites somebody, I already, probably in my head, I’m already thinking it’s going to be euthanized. Caramagno: But as a business, shouldn’t you have something, almost like an emergency manager plan? A dog gets a hold of – Petitioner: Well, yeah, I would; yeah. Caramagno: – someone’s cat – Petitioner: Right. Caramagno: – what – there must be a process for that, whether it’s on a city street, whether it’s a private yard, or if it’s in a business such as yours? There must be a process for that. What is the process? Petitioner: If we’re in the public on the street, I would assume the police are going to be involved anyway. I haven’t had a situation like that. If I had a situation where City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 85 of 117 May 24, 2011 somebody got bit, my first thought would be the animal behaviorist, “Let’s discuss this dog and what’s going on; what we’re going to do.” Then I would contact my vet. Caramagno: I understand. We wouldn’t have fire departments – Petitioner: If it’s in public – Caramagno: – if weren’t for the first house to have a fire. You got to have some sort of process in place. Petitioner: Well, that is. Caramagno: That could be a potentially big problem. Petitioner: That would be the process: Animal control – the an (sic) – the police, the – my animal behaviorist, the veterinarian. Between the three, bam, bam, bam, we’d figure it out how to resolve the situation. Caramagno: Okay. Petitioner: I’m sure within 5 minutes – Caramagno: Who would be responsible? Who would be responsible if a stray – if a dog that came to your shelter, someone dropped the dog off to you or you picked one up and brought it to your shelter, and this dog bites somebody while it’s being eval (sic) -- Petitioner: Better Life Canine Center. We have liability insurance. Caramagno: You have the insurance for that. Petitioner: Oh, absolutely; have to. Caramagno: Okay. Do you take dogs off the street? Anybody – I can come drop a dog off to you at your place in Redford? Petitioner: No. Caramagno: Why? Petitioner: Because we can’t receive dogs like that. We don’t have room for it. We have to have a foster home – Caramagno: If you had room and I showed up – Petitioner: – lined up. Caramagno: – with a dog in my backseat, would you take it? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 86 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: If I don’t know where it came from, and if it’s from a stray – if it’s their dog and they’re surrendering it? Caramagno: Yeah. Petitioner: Yeah. Well, I mean we would talk to him, assess the situation. They would sign a surrender form, and if I had room for it, and after – Caramagno: So if I showed up with a dog, you wouldn’t take it from me. Petitioner: I’m saying, yes, if you’re surrendering, you’re the owner, you want to surrender a dog, and this is a dog that I feel that is adoptable, and if I assess or our animal behaviorist assesses it and this is a dog that we can work with, that is adoptable, you would sign a “surrender form,” and we would probably take the dog from you. Caramagno: If – Petitioner: If it’s a dog that has major issues and I don’t feel comfortable with, then I must say, “I can’t help you.” I don’t – Caramagno: And where do you send me? Petitioner: They’re going to go to the local animal shelter in whatever city they live in. Caramagno: Well, you are an animal shelter. Petitioner: I’m not an animal shelter. Balcazar: We are not. We are being forced to get the license. Yeah – Caramagno: Okay. Okay. So you’re not taking all dogs. So if someone brings a stray dog to you – Petitioner: No, I can’t. Caramagno: – that’s wandering the street – Petitioner: Again, to goes back – Caramagno: – you’re not taking it. Petitioner: – to what we believe in and our level of excellence. I can’t just bring any old dog in and terrorize my environment, and take away from what I’m doing with the dogs. I am trying to create a quiet, peaceful atmosphere where dogs can be trained, rehabilitated, and are comfortable, non-stress. We don’t want stress in our environment. That would contradict with everything I’m trying to do. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 87 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: Who takes – like dog biting cases, who takes those dogs? Petitioner: I mean I don’t – Caramagno: Who does? Petitioner: I don’t know. I think they go to the shelter is where they probably go. Caramagno: Humane Society or something, or shelter? Petitioner: Probably. Caramagno: Okay. When you say you take troubled dogs, if someone has a dog that jumps the fence, runs away when you call it, darts out the door – Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Caramagno: – how about dogs that are biting? Do you take that dog and try to recuperate it? Petitioner: No, if it’s biting a person, no. Caramagno: If I had a dog and it’s my dog, and I love him to death – Petitioner: And it’s biting you? Caramagno: – but he’s a bite – he’s a little biter – Petitioner: Something’s going on with that dog. It’s not right if it bites a person. Caramagno: But isn’t that what you do? You told me you are rehabbing these dogs. Petitioner: But, you know what, it’s so rare. I mean I haven’t come across – I – years ago, I came across one dog that I – and it was a stray that I took in and I ended up having to call the animal control officer because that was one dog that I knew that was going to – could bite me. You just don’t come across dog – you may come across dogs that are not – socialize with other dogs, aren’t good around other dogs; but it’s not – at least in my experience, it is not common to come across a dog that wants to bite you. Caramagno: Do you keep dogs at your place over in Redford? Petitioner: No, I don’t keep them all night. I’m not allowed to take dogs there anymore. My husband kicked me out. That is the truth. He did. That is the truth. It did – you know, honestly, probably just a little over a year ago, we started a Facebook page. I’ve never even – I didn’t even – wasn’t into email or nothing, or on Facebook or anything. One of the gals started the Facebook page, and when that started, it’s like, bam, things kind of got a little crazy with people calling about dogs. And I start doing the dog City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 88 of 117 May 24, 2011 training classes temporarily, a few months that lasted, at our fitness facility, and – but it started out just, you know, one or two; and then it escalated really quick. And my husband drew the line, you know, like back in – last fall and said, “No more; that’s it.” Caramagno: Why? Petitioner: Because too many, and we have carpet. Carpet. You know, and it was – Caramagno: What’s in that building over there on Schoolcraft now? What’s in there? Petitioner: What do you mean, “What is in it?” Caramagno: When I came by today, I saw overhead doors up and I saw a lot of stuff in there. What’s in there? Petitioner: There’s some moveable – maybe you saw the moveable – they were actually from Marshall’s. Somebody had called me. I told them what one of my visions was to be able to have built on casters moveable walls that we can connect together so that I could actually have a separate training area going on. And so, somebody had called me that’s a – works in the area and said back at Marshall’s, they’re redoing it, because he was one of the contractors, and that they have these display units on mobile wheels that I could grab, and that would fit my vision of what I wanted. So I got about 14 of those and I got those in there. So, maybe, that’s what you saw. Caramagno: Yeah, there was something there; yeah. Petitioner: That’s what that was. Caramagno: It was pretty large. In the fenced-in area, I seen pieces of fencing kind of attached to the chain-link fence – Petitioner: Yeah. Caramagno: – towards the bottom, you know – Petitioner: Right. Caramagno: – so nothing can get out, a dog couldn’t get out the bottom – Petitioner: Right. Caramagno: – of this. Well, tell me about that. Petitioner: My personal dogs, when they come there with me, it’s a big ‘ol gap. It’s like an over – you know, it’s over a foot, 18 inches or so under that fence. Caramagno: How would you address that going forward? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 89 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: Permanently adhere something all the way around. We’ve already – you know, and I already – actually, cement blocks all the way around the bottom of the fence line and I would also take the spokes and pull the fence line all the way down to the ground – Caramagno: What is – Petitioner: – all the way around. Caramagno: – well, what’s required as proper fencing for something like – Petitioner: That’s proper fencing. When I was with the Department of Agriculture and the Livonia animal control, we walked through there and it’s proper. Caramagno: Okay. So they’re cool with it. Petitioner: Yes. She was really fine with the whole building. As far as I knew, they all were when I met with them. I met with – there was three animal control officers and the lady from the Department of Agriculture. I really left that meeting feeling really great because they were very, very supportive, and told me, you know, just – whatever I needed, just to ask and call. And, you know, “Make sure you don’t go ahead and just do all this stuff with not the – checking with us. We want to make sure you don’t do things as far as” – they were concerned about the materials, carpet – Caramagno: Hmm-hmm. Petitioner: – couch cushions, you know, disease-prevention type things was really their focus. Caramagno: When – Ken had asked a question earlier – Petitioner: Hmm-hmm. Caramagno: – about – and I wasn’t listening well, I don’t think. But, he asked a question about where did you get the idea for this? Did you see a McDonald’s and think, “I want to have a better McDonald’s,” and you had said something like you didn’t know anything other op – any other operations like this, or something like that; wasn’t that it? And so, you don’t know nothing about this Bet (sic) – Detroit group dog rescue, although you tell me your people do. You didn’t know anything about this Detroit Rescue, and Wags & Wishes, but one – some of your people do. Petitioner: Right. Caramagno: And so, you’re clueless when it comes to other operations that operate like this? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 90 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: To be honest with you, I kind of am a little clueless. Other folks on our team have been in rescue for years. I really haven’t been – I’m hunkered down at our gym and my house. I drive back and forth between the two. I live in a little bubble. I really – I don’t go out and do all the stuff. I’m not – I’m usually focused – I’m the one working with the dogs. Caramagno: You seem to be very intent on the things you talk about and know – want us to know. Petitioner: Well, I’ll tell you anything you want to know. Caramagno: And very, very uninformed about the other groups that you’re supposed to be, supposedly, involved with or your people are involved with, and that’s concerning to me. Petitioner: Because I’m not involved in any other groups. Caramagno: And I didn’t say you are, but your people that are working with you and volunteering time for you, and with you, they’re spending their evening with you tonight. It’s hard for me to believe that you can’t be knowledgeable about these other groups, and especially this high profile event that may happen – Petitioner: I – Caramagno: – with some of your folks. Petitioner: – probably just don’t choose to – Caramagno: I – that’s concerning to me. Petitioner: – sometimes because I – Noble: Can I speak? Caramagno: All right, I’m going to be done in a second and then you guys can have at it. Noble: My name is Joanna Noble, 32049 Margaret Court – Caramagno: But that’s really – that’s some of my comments, and I’ll have more later. But – and that’s just kind of where I’m at now; all right? Noble: I just wanted to – Henzi: And he directed a question of the speaker. You’ll have an opportunity – Caramagno: Yes, a shot in a minute. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 91 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: Did you have an answer, Ms. Woody? Petitioner: Oh, why I don’t know more about other – Caramagno: Well, you – Petitioner: – because I choose not to. I’m very limited on my – I mean I’m limited on my time as it is. All of this is volunteer. I have to stay as focused as I can on the dogs I have on hand and what I can do with excellence. I have an awesome team and I rely on them. I have – even our Website, I got to honestly say I haven’t been to our Website in a while because I’ve got Amanda and John, they cover the Website. Preferably, when things – I get into the building and get more settled where everybody’s under one hub, I can get more involved in all that. I am focused on the part that I do well. I’m not on – I’m not the – on the Website, Facebook. I go on our Facebook page to post pictures and videos of our dogs to adopt them; but as far as going to other people’s Face (sic) – I don’t do that. I just don’t do that. Caramagno: You’ve got a devoted team there. I can see 20 of them or so. Petitioner: I – Caramagno: They’re not strangers that – you guys are pretty in tune with one another. So – all right; that’s all I got, thanks. Henzi: I’ve got to harp on this article – Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: – because this article says – talk – it’s very favorable for your organization, and there’s quotes dedicated to you. What – as you talk tonight, it seems like you’re going to an awful lot of trouble to get the shelter license, which is required by the state, to house only six or eight dogs. Petitioner: I know. I wish I didn’t. Henzi: That’s an awful lot of work. Petitioner: Trust me, I’m – Henzi: If you weren’t doing that, you’d basically be telling us you’re a training facility – Petitioner: Right. I know. It’s un (sic) -- Henzi: – (slash) office for the administration. Petitioner: Again, I’m trying to be honest that – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 92 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: All right. So – Petitioner: I almost should just – Henzi: – following that line – Petitioner: – get a kennel license – Henzi: – of thought – Petitioner: – and not do – Henzi: – that this is so much work for only six or eight dogs, the quote is, “Woody goes before the Livonia Zoning Board of Appeals on May 10 to present her plan. Dogs would live at the center with the volunteer staffing it at all times. There’s a living room, kitchenette and area for the dogs to live in and train.” Earlier in the article, it said – it talks about that you’re the founder of a nonprofit “that cares for and trains dogs like Sheeba in need of permanent homes. There (are 20 dogs) in foster homes waiting to be adopted and another 20 waiting to be placed in a foster home.” That’s at – Petitioner: Misinterpreted. Henzi: – odds with what you’re telling us. Petitioner: And I remember that article because I vaguely even read it because it had the wrong phone number on it. It was a horrendous article with a horrendous picture of a dog also. So, I really just skimmed that because I was kind of disgusted with the whole article, the fact that it was a bad photo, wrong phone number, and just was a lousy article. So I really – honestly, I didn’t put – that is incorrect. We have 20-25 dogs at any one time that are on our PetFinder site that are in foster homes. Henzi: Waiting to be adopted. Petitioner: Waiting to be adopted; that’s it. Henzi: And right now you got – Petitioner: Twenty dogs – Henzi: – zero. Petitioner: – somewhere else, would – where would those other 20 be? There’s not 20 dogs that – so that – Henzi: Well, right now, you got zero living somewhere – living at a center. Petitioner: Right; exactly. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 93 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: And you’re saying only six or eight you anticipate are going to need to live in this – Petitioner: Because right now we have zero; right. So I – see, that’s the number I’m throwing out there to give me a buffer, because at any one time through – you know, when I received dogs at my house, I’m getting one or two here and there, and then they go – and then the few days go by and they’re going right to a foster home. But I know being in a building, I could have up to six at one time. To me, I’m shooting high saying – so, yes, and part of me is thinking, “Gosh, I should just not even do overnight and just get a kennel,” but I was trying to be realistic that there’s going to be times where dogs are going to have to be overnight. I don’t want dogs that have to be there overnight, but I just know that I’m not going to have a foster home just open on a whim, on a Saturday, when somebody surrenders a dog. I can’t – you know, they’re on vacation, or they’re out for dinner. I can’t have – get a dog – it’s very challenging right now, because right now I use – I – you know, I’m meeting at PetSmart; I’m meeting at my house; I’m meeting at Me and My Shadow. I’m trying to do this, but I can’t do it efficiently because I don’t really have a hub of where I can actually meet the dog, evaluate it, paperwork’s there in the file cabinet; surrender form, dah-dah-duh, and I just want to be able to operate more efficiently. Henzi: Okay. Okay. Anything else? Fisher: Mr. Chair, can I ask a few questions? Henzi: Sure. Fisher: Did I understand you to say that it’s just your personal dogs that have been to this center so far? Petitioner: And a couple of my foster dogs. Fisher: Okay. The reason I ask is because we have in here a picture taken off your Facebook post that say, “Rescue dogs, Mimi and Bailey, hang out while foster dad Al works at the new building. Petitioner: Right. Fisher: So you have had foster dogs, as well as – Petitioner: Yeah. Fisher: – personal dogs – Petitioner: I consider those my personal dogs. They’re my dogs in my home. They’re dogs that are in my home, like – so I guess do consider my – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 94 of 117 May 24, 2011 Fisher: Well, is there – what’s the distinction then between a personal dog and a foster dog? And is every dog that walks through this building going to be your personal dog? Petitioner: No. It would just happen to be convenient that, you know, the dogs are with me on one day, and my other dogs are home; and I have those – and those two with me. A lot of it’s out of convenience because I’m on my way to the fitness center, or to do something and run errands. It just – Fisher: Okay. From what I understand from the animal control officers, they or the city, for that matter, learned about your operation from your Facebook page, not from anybody from your organization making any contact – Petitioner: Right. Fisher: – to pull a permit or to get a certificate of – Petitioner: Right. Fisher: – occupancy, or anything of that nature. Petitioner: Right. Because there was – I – there wasn’t a need to do that because we were with permission from the owner. We were doing a fundraiser in there and there was no – I was dealing with – and he’s here, the real estate agent that was helping me through everything. And so, there was no need to go to the city. Fisher: Well – Petitioner: Not that I knew of. Fisher: Okay. Petitioner: I didn’t know – well, I didn’t think I needed an occupancy permit to have a fundraiser. Fisher: Well, I guess from what I can understand, you had the work going on in the building, apparently personal dogs visiting the building, and the fundraiser in the building. Petitioner: Right. Fisher: Okay. Aggressive dogs; are there breeds, Pit Bulls for example, are off limits, you don’t take them? Petitioner: No, they’re not off limits. Fisher: They’re not. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 95 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: Dog is dog to me. Aggressive dog, it – you know, it’s – aggressive dog is an aggressive dog. So, it’s off limits to me. It’s – I won’t take – that would be very selective because I don’t have foster homes. A lot of my foster homes are a little lower key, quieter homes. A lot of times if you get into a bully breed, usually the energy level is a little higher, a little more intensity. I really don’t have foster homes for them. So, yes, I do limit them. Would I – I’d be – I would be dishonest to say that I would never take one because I don’t agree with that, that, you know, Pit Bulls are aggressive dogs. I think dog is dog, and a Yorkie can be aggressive; Pit Bull can be aggressive; Golden Retriever can be aggressive. I don’t deal with aggressive dogs, period. Fisher: Okay, that’s all I have. Henzi: Now that I’m looking at the Facebook posts, here’s an April 30 post talking about a dog named “Russell” who needs to go somewhere ASAP. “Our building will be open and he can move in there, but he needs someplace to go until then.” Petitioner: Right. Henzi: That suggests to me – Petitioner: I didn’t post that, but – well, I didn’t post that, but when I do speak – I don’t know if you read anything that I write, or when I say – I talk with a lot of expectancy and faith. And, so I do – so maybe that’s my mistake, but that’s just the way I talk and the way I move. I try to make things happen and I speak in faith that it’s going to happen. Henzi: But I – Petitioner: So maybe – Henzi: – thought that the mission was the opposite. It was to temporarily house dogs, only six to eight, for a short period of time at the center, and then get them to the house. Petitioner: Well, it is, and I didn’t make that posting. Henzi: This post suggests, “Somebody take him for a couple of days and then he can move into the center,” which stokes our fear that the center is going to be a dumping ground for 150 dogs. Petitioner: Well, it’s not, but I think that’s a misinterpretation from the gal that posted that. I mean she was desperate to find a foster home, anybody that could just temporarily – you know, I can’t – and I know it’s on our Facebook page. Is – that’s on our Facebook page? Henzi: Yeah. Mr. Caramagno. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 96 of 117 May 24, 2011 Caramagno: Well, let me go back to another comment. When you talk about dogs and breeds of dogs, are you saying a minute ago that Pit Bulls are no more dangerous than any other dog? Petitioner: Oh, no, they – Caramagno: As a breed, are you saying that they’re – Petitioner: No. Caramagno: – the same as that Golden Lab you’re telling me about? Are you – Petitioner: No – Caramagno: – saying the same – Petitioner: – I’m not saying that at all. I believe that there really aren’t – they’re not as adoptable. There’s – you really – if somebody can own a bully breed, I do believe you have to be a certain kind of person. You have to be a strong pack leader. The dog has to be at a higher level of training. You’ve got to be able to exercise the dog. And so, I don’t want to take Pit Bulls in general – Caramagno: Yeah. Petitioner: – because it’s going to be harder to adopt them out. And, you know – and to be honest, no, I think some of them can be wonderful dogs. But, honestly, and kind of in a business standpoint, I have to draw a line. Caramagno: Well, I thought when Mike asked you a minute ago, you had said, “Well, the dog’s a dog,” and that you treat them all as dogs, and I can understand some of them get a bad rap; there’s no doubt about it. Petitioner: Right. Caramagno: But I think if I talked to any dog professional, they’re going to tell you that them Pit Bulls or other dogs similar to them, percentage-wise, are a bad deal, and you’re telling me, no, that there the same as a – you said something, a Lab and you used another kind – type of – Petitioner: Well, I don’t necessarily – Caramagno: – a pooch, or something. Petitioner: – think Pit Bull breed is any more aggressive than another breed is my point. Caramagno: You don’t think a Pit Bull’s any more aggressive than – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 97 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: No – Caramagno: – another breed. Petitioner: – that’s a fact. Balcazar: Statistics prove it. Petitioner: Yeah, that’s a fact. Caramagno: Well, I’d love to see some statistics on that. I’d love to see that. Noble: It’s a fact. Caramagno: That would have been nice to give us tonight. I – Petitioner: Yeah. Caramagno: – that would have been fantastic. I’d love to see that. (Audience speaks out) Balcazar: We weren’t arguing for Pit Bulls, though. Caramagno: But I’m just – and we’re – I’m just looking – Balcazar: That’s not the point of the meeting. Caramagno: – at some facts. Again, we – for what you’re – you’re becoming a specialist for dog animals, I would think some of the facts would be more in line, right down to the fact that Craig was asking you – Balcazar: One of the highest is German Shepherds. Caramagno: – how many dogs, area – how many dogs in an area, this and that; I didn’t hear a good answer for Craig’s question earlier either. So, there are a lot of facts that are not there, other than it’s an exceptional, phenomenal place and good people. And they are – got to be good people to sit here all night with us. They’ve got to be great people. But, a lot of the real facts I didn’t hear tonight. Henzi: All right. There’s a lot of folks in the audience who I think want to speak. To try and manage this, because it is 10:30, does everybody want to speak? Raise your hand if you want to talk and then I’ll – Noble: I just want to make two quick ones. Henzi: Okay. Just raise your hand if you want to talk. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 98 of 117 May 24, 2011 Noble: Okay. Henzi: Oh, there’s not that many. I’ll try to limit it to, you know, just a couple of minutes though. Okay. Come on up to the table. Go ahead. Noble: I just want to make two quick comments that are corrections. First of all – Henzi: You have to tell us your name and address – Noble: Oh, I did before. Henzi: – for the record. Noble: I’m sorry. Joanna Noble, 32049 Margaret Court, Warren, MI. Henzi: Okay. Noble: Facebook pages can be very dangerous because they’re open to the public. Public can post things to a Facebook page. So a lot of the commentary that you might be reading could be posted by people that are complete outsiders and have nothing to do with this organization. And Detroit Rescue, who I just recently learned about, has only been functioning since February. So, it’s not even been around very long, and I think many of us here in this room are just now learning about them at all. Henzi: Thank you. Who’s next? Just keep – come – go ahead. Balcazar: I’m Amanda Balcazar, 9216 Sarasota, Redford. I mean one of the things that I want to comment, and Brenda has made mentioned that she’s not aware of a lot of stuff and other things going on, and that’s the truth. This is a nonprofit. We are all volunteers and a lot of people have full-time jobs. She runs a business with her husband, but the other 23 hours of her day is her dogs and focusing on that, and trying to keep everything as organized as possible. And I don’t understand how she does it; I really don’t. But, when you’re talking about what the facility is need for, it is the last thing. And like she was saying, if there needs to be a cap on dogs there, it’s something that – you know what, we’re actually open to this. We weren’t seeking out a shelter license. We don’t want hundreds of dogs there; that’s the last thing. We don’t have enough manpower to do that, but that’s why everybody’s involved here because it would be horrifying. We don’t volunteer at a shelter because it would probably make us sick. We would – I mean, so we can’t do that. We go there because we’re able to, you know, donate our time to an organization that operates with excellence, and that’s what they want to do in this community. They want to be able to provide service as education, which is the biggest thing; that’s the biggest problem with people surrendering their dogs. Or when they get a dog, they get a dog and they don’t realize that it’s going to take a little bit of work; you know? It’s cute as a puppy and it’s all manageable, but you put on a hundred pounds on this dog and it’s unmanageable. But that’s just poor education. The people don’t know, and then it’s a bad dog. You know what? No, they could have been trained through that time; but then they need to surrender this dog. So City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 99 of 117 May 24, 2011 that’s what she’s here for. She takes calls nonstop. We have a couple of other people, finally, that have joined up to assist her to give her a little bit of peace; but, that’s really what she does. And right now, functioning at Me and My Shadow is at – 1,100 sq. ft. I mean this is a small facility. She manages it like clockwork. We have dogs coming in there – like they’re talking about scheduling, there will not skip a beat. There will not be floods of dogs coming in, floods of dogs coming out. She has these dogs coming in 15- minute increments. This is how it works; these are the schedules. You hold your dog back; you’re not done yet; she’ll swap the dogs. Like everything is absolutely meticulous and – I mean that’s why my husband and I first started donating – we wanted to donate a couple hours, and the organization just sucks you in just because it’s so amazing. And her giving – that’s all she wants to do is give, and that’s truly what she wants to do. And she will abide by whatever rules. We will all do that in order to be able to make this happen and to be able to run effectively, efficiently, and with excellence. Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. Go ahead. Schneider: My name is Molly Schneider. I reside at 3003 Kipling, in Berkley, MI. I first met Barbara (sic) at the middle of February of this year. I lost my dog of 12 years. He passed away from cancer, so a few days later, I decided to go on PetFinder.com and look for a new dog because, you know, he was our baby. So – anyway, so I was going through different – looking at different dogs. I knew I wanted a big dog. I didn’t want a puppy because I work full-time; my husband works full-time; we have two children. I didn’t want to deal with housebreaking and all of that. So, there are many organizations on PetFinder.com. I don’t know – personally, I don’t know about the other organizations, but when I came across a picture of Raina – and I did these boards, so that’s why I know my Raina’s on here. This is Raina. I saw her photo, her little floppy ear, her one sticking out. And she’s, approximately, 1 to 2-years-old, and the description was that: 1 to 2-years-old, a nice dog; “we will give you training for one year free of charge included with your adoption fee.” That was the only rescue group of other dogs that I had looked at on PetFinder that offered that. So I knew – and then I talked with – before I could even meet Raina, I had to submit an application. Now this was an application that was very detailed: What is your yard like; is it fenced; do you have any other dogs in your home; do you have children in your home; do you work, if so, what are your hours? They really wanted to know if I was going to be an appropriate owner for this dog. They weren’t just going to throw the dog at me; whereas, had I gone to the Humane Society, all I would need to do is look at a dog, say, “Yes, I’d like it; here’s $150,” or whatever their fee is, and I could take that dog without any information about who I am. So, I sent my application in and then I got a response from one of the members who were fostering Raina. And she said, “Okay, this is what Raina is like,” and gave me a description: “She’s calm; she’s friendly with other dogs; and from our experience, she’s good with children.” So, at that point, Barbara (sic) was then contacted by the foster so that – Petitioner: Brenda. Schneider: Brenda. “Barbara”; I got Barbara on my mind. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 100 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: That’s okay. Schneider: Brenda was contacted by the foster, and Brenda called me and we made an arrangement for me to come to Brenda’s home and meet Raina. So, I went on a Saturday. I went to Brenda’s home. Raina was there, and Brenda – I walked into Brenda’s home and she had her dogs and Raina, and her home is very, very clean. She has crates organized and she rotates the dogs so that that way certain dogs get out and get their exercise, whereas the other dogs are resting. It’s not just, you know, her dogs running around rampant in her home. She has a beautiful home. Her backyard was very clean. I’m very sensitive to smell. I can’t stand the smell cat urine or dog urine anywhere. She keeps a very, very clean home. So I met Raina; Raina was kind of timid and shy. But then, we talked for about 45 minutes to an hour, and at the end, Raina was laying on her tummy. And it was, “Okay, am I going to get this dog?” Almost like when you’re applying for your first home and putting in your application and your offer for your first home; am I going to get it? So I went home – Henzi: I’ll give you 45 more seconds. Schneider: Okay. Anyway, I go home, and Brenda said, “Okay, I think you’re going to be a good fit, but Raina’s going to need to meet the rest of your family first.” And this was Raina meeting my kids the first time, and she’s been with us now since the end of February. And I am doing training with one of her other people, Ellie Price, who is one of the trainers that works with her, and now Raina’s working on tracking lessons and trailing lessons, learning about that. So – Henzi: Thank you. Schneider: – that’s my experience; so that’s how I know Brenda. Henzi: Thank you. Go ahead. Job: My name is Joseph Job, 14369 Brentwood, in Livonia. I’ve been in Livonia for – since 1984. And I have a 13-year-old Pit Bull. I know he’s not going to be living much longer. I wanted to get a dog to make his life a little better. Everything she said, the same thing. They came over to my house to do a meet-and-greet. She brought the dog behaviorist, Brian Walsh, over. Very professional, asked me to put my dog outside; walked the dog through the house; then we did a meet with my dog; took them for a walk. I’ve been walking my dog wrong for years. He showed me how to walk the dog proper. Checked out my backyard; fence was not good enough. He said, “You cannot adopt a dog ‘til this fence is fixed.” My dog was way too excited, so they came back in a couple days. I worked – fixed the fence. He came back, “Fence looks better; too loose at the bottom. You still cannot adopt the dog until that fence is better.” My dog was still too excited. He came back a couple more days later; fence was fine. They ended up saying, “Well, let’s try this as a trial basis.” She brought two crates over to the house, with Brian again, worked with my dog again; left the dogs; called everyday. 24/7, whenever I called Brenda, she answers the phone. If she can’t, she calls back within 10-15 minutes. It turns out after a week, too much work. I could not – the dogs didn’t City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 101 of 117 May 24, 2011 get along. Told Brenda, “It’s not going to work.” She said, “Okay.” She came, picked up the dog. “We’ll try a different dog maybe later.” About a week later, I ran into her. I said, “I’d like to try Happy (phonetically) again,” that was the dog. She brought him back over. I’ve had him for a week now, and I’m in the middle of an adoption. Very professional, and I didn’t know Brenda from anybody. But the same thing, I went on the Website and – went on a bunch of Websites. Hers sounded like the best because I love the way they stated with the training. So – I mean I don’t – like I say, I’m not affiliated with them; but, by far a great experience. I’ve learned more about the dog in this last month than I ever knew. Henzi: Thank you. Job: And there’s so many vacant buildings Livonia, I think this is something that could benefit the community, fill up another building. I don’t see where there would be any issues. Henzi: Thanks. Anybody else? Lynch: Yes. Henzi: Go ahead. Lynch: Carolyn Lynch, 37374 Nine Mile, Farmington Hills, MI. I work for Leader Dog, in Rochester Hills, for the Blind, for many, many, many years. I’ve never affiliated myself with a rescue, a shelter, or anything else, other than to donate tens of thousands of dollars to the Michigan Humane Society. My mother-in-law adopted a dog; that’s how I met Brenda. And then we decided that we would be a foster family, and I’m going to address a couple of things. Had we known exactly what you wanted to know when we came here tonight, that’s what we would have presented; but we’re coming in blind, so please remember that. We don’t know what you want to know, so we come in with what we think you want to know. I took in Cash, which was a Pit Bull puppy, born with a cleft lip and palate. Had he been taken to animal control, he would have been euthanized. Had the Michigan Humane Society got him, he would have been euthanized. That’s the story. Because he had over $2,000 worth of vet care that needed to be taken care of, if he was going to survive. This organization took him. Ninety-nine percent of those dogs are euthanized. He is a happy, very well behaved puppy. That’s a success story. This is where the Michigan Humane Society fails and can’t provide for, and we can. That’s where we fill that gap, same with animal control. We fill that gap. It doesn’t matter. We’re here to take care of those dogs that they can’t take care of. We don’t take aggressive dogs. Absolutely not. It isn’t a question, period. There’s no exceptions to that rule, none. I think that if you really investigate or you really have things that you need to know from us that we can’t answer for you tonight, that you will at least take the time and figure out a way to find those things out before you take this away from Livonia. Our families are struggling. People don’t have jobs. They are giving up animals. They are not providing care for their animals anymore. They are not spay and neutering. They are not even doing their shots. In our building, we are offering low cost animal care through vets that love us and are willing to do that. That’s a service you City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 102 of 117 May 24, 2011 don’t have in your community. That’s huge. In Livonia, that’s huge. I look around at all these empty buildings and it’s just like, “Why would you turn us away?” I understand some of your concerns; but, please, take the time to really find out those answers without the judgment. You know you offended me very much when you said she doesn’t know what we are all doing. She doesn’t know what we all do on our own time. There are some people involved with other organizations, or they get called to help because they know we’re dog lovers. I personally don’t do that, but no more than – you know, you might be laying brick pavers this weekend. I don’t think that these – that’s these people’s information to know. It’s the same here. Everything that BLCC stands for is on the up-and-up. We are community oriented. I hope you will keep that in your mind when you make our decision. Henzi: Thank you. Who’s next? Go ahead. Wiggins: Jennifer Wiggins, 44667 (inaudible response) Drive – Tomkiewicz: Would you like to come up? Wiggins: – Livonia, MI. Just really quickly, you were asking about the request for a temporary foster for Russell. Russell actually stays with my husband and I, and he’ll be staying with us until he’s adopted out. So, he’s with us. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? I don’t see anybody else. Are there any letters? Caramagno: Yep, there are two. We have an approval from John Bul, 36930 Industrial Road (letter was read). And, Kim Kosinski, 36875 Schoolcraft (objection letter was read), no name of the business though. Petitioner: There’s no – yeah, that’s interesting. Yeah, there would – obviously, was not our dog. Caramagno: But, 36875, what’s – Petitioner: No dogs have been outside of that building. There’s no possible – they can’t. Harb: It is west. Caramagno: It’s your neighbor. It’s 20 – you’re 55, they’re 75. So – Petitioner: I can’t imagine where that is. Caramagno: – isn’t there stacked buildings there? Henzi: It’s the next door neighbor. Caramagno: Next door neighbor. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 103 of 117 May 24, 2011 Podina: Thought that was the owner. Petitioner: There would never be a dog out there on the lawn out by Schoolcraft. Caramagno: Coyote or something; who knows. Petitioner: It was obviously somebody else walking a dog. It had nothing to do with us. Henzi: Okay. Ms. Woody, you have the opportunity to make a closing statement. Petitioner: Okay. Oh, a couple things on here. Again, we would agree on a specific amount – a number of dogs. I know you’re concerned with how you would ever oversee that; that would not be an issue for us. And then, also, if the answer is “no” on a variance, would you possibly even consider for one year contingent on a review after that time? Again, you know, I guess I can only go by, you know – I don’t know, hold up the photos again; I don’t know if it’ll help. This is who we are. This is what we’ve been doing for years. We’re not going to change the level of excellence in how we deal with people and deal with dogs. I mean I can’t stress enough that all of us – and that is why a lot of the volunteers are rewarded and stay on board with us because of the atmosphere that we create, and because we all do believe in keeping balance at our homes and not having chaos, and barking dogs. And we want dogs to come to us to be in a calm, nice atmosphere. We’re not looking to ever have an overabundance of dogs. So, this is who we’ve been and we’re not going to change because we have more square footage. The square footage is mainly so we can actually just do the training more efficiently, do more of it, do fundraising, do training seminars. I mean it’s just a phenomenal opportunity to really – just the training seminars are going to be phenomenal. And just be able to educate the community and just be a dog-friendly city, and just – and I just feel like, too – you know there is such an issue in over population of the dogs, and everything, and I feel like – and honestly, I wish this burden wasn’t on my life. I just – it – but it is, and I have to follow through and I need to do – I need to make an impact. And I want to do it right; I want to do it organized; I want to do it legally. I want to be part of the community. I don’t want to be separate. And, you know, that’s why I was a little slightly hurt that the Livonia animal control officer was, you know, not really in favor, because in my mind, and maybe I’m naive, I was like really excited. I’m thinking, “High five; look what I’m doing.” You know, that’s how I felt going into it. And, I feel like, you know, the private sector should step up and do something. You know, I don’t think we should sit on our butts and complain about, you know, the over abundance of dogs and all that; and they expect the city, you know, to do – to always do something. I know that’s not in your budget to handle the problem. But the – as a private sector, we can come in and we can make a difference. And I can’t stress enough, I’m – I can’t stress enough. We want to work with you. We want to work with the city. You know – Henzi: Thank you very much. Petitioner: – and work with the Humane Society. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 104 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, this is a very unusual case. The applicant has a lot of enthusiasm over what she does, but I’m not very comfortable with it. One thing that concerns me is this letter about this raid which I didn’t get to, the last couple sentences were, “While much of this is still under investigation, we do know that (1) BLCC told us they organized it; (2) BLCC principal, Barbara Lewis, was directly involved in the raid; (3) the raid was conducted in a manner that raises many legal issues.” I have serious issues with that. Petitioner: I can understand – Pastor: It’s not time for you to talk any longer. Petitioner: – if you’re reading that. Pastor: It’s not the time for you to talk anymore. Petitioner: All I can say is it is separate. Okay. Go ahead. Pastor: Besides that, I’m very uncomfortable with we give them this license – or we give them this approval; they get a license to house as many dogs as they want. I know you say you’re not going to, but you may not be the director of – for the rest of your life, or be the director of this organization forever. Somebody else may be, and that’s what we have to watch out for. So, I’m very uncomfortable that there were no real plans. You know, everything was kind of wishy-washy, “Well, I love doing this; I like doing this; maybe” – you know, I heard a lot of “maybe’s.” I heard a lot of, “I think.” And, it does make me very uncomfortable. When we had these other cases in front of us, they told us exactly what they were doing, when they were doing it, how many dogs they had, when they were allowed to; and then they told us other things, like, “We’re going to install dog-friendly carpet” – it wasn’t carpeting, it was more like a – Aloe: Astro turf was – Pastor: Astro turf; yes, thank you. “We’re going to do this; we’re going to do that.” I heard almost nothing on that lines (sic). So, I’m very, very uncomfortable with this. I would definitely approve to table it, but I will not be in favor tonight. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I’m going to pass. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Harb: All this time? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 105 of 117 May 24, 2011 Sills: Yes, I have reasons for doing this. If I may, I’m very impressed with the contingence that this young lady brought with them (sic). When it comes to people volunteering, I have to take my hat off to them. I worked many years with the Spree, which is all volunteer work. I know what volunteering is about, and I’m very impressed when I look at this gallery of people here that are willing to give their time to this particular project. And, that is my positives. Now my negatives are I have a granddaughter that has two Akitas. When she adopted the Akitas, her veterinarian said, “I will not take care of them.” He said – and I heard the gentleman in the back mention about a Pit Bull and his – and somebody said, “Pit Bulls are fine,” and everything else. There are certain breeds of dogs that will attack. In talking with the veterinarian, I was told one time that, “You have to remember one thing: A dog is a pet, but he’s also an animal; and animals are unpredictable.” And when you get two Akitas, that both weigh over a hundred pounds, that attack and kill everything they see in the yard. Then I had a cousin that had a Basset Hound, which is a very docile animal, and he says, “One, two, left, right; left, right,” that’s how he walks. He put my cousin into the hospital where she had to take plastic surgery and everything like that. Here was a very calm, nice pet that just blew it one day. So, I’m going to pass for those reasons for right now. I’m going to give this a little bit more thought. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I am a dog lover; okay? I have two dogs. When you tell me about taking these dogs and training them, and putting them in foster care and finding them a home, I’m just like in love with your philosophy, your business model. But still, there are things in this, just like Mr. Pastor, that bother me because we’re possibly opening up the gate for something that is going to turn into something that’s not anything near what you describe to us. And maybe because you won’t always be at the helm. Maybe you’re not always going to be the director. You know, we don’t know with the other people who are volunteers what their vision is of this becoming. It just seems like it’s so uncontained or – there’s just something about it that really bothers me; but yet at the same time, I am really for it because I know that there’s a huge need for it. You have volunteers, and committed to doing all this. I mean it’s wonderful for the dogs that don’t have to be, you know, taken to the Humane Society and, you know, put to sleep. But, I don’t know. I don’t know what it would take to get me to approve it, I guess that’s it, because once that variance is given, it’s given. And, you know, you might have animal control, you might have building inspectors, but things happen all the time and there is no control over it. So, I don’t know if a tabling motion – I mean after you hear what everybody’s thoughts are, there’s something that you could come back and say that would make us all feel better or comfortable about giving you a variance, I don’t know, maybe that’s the answer. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, you can’t deny your passion and desire, and mission. There’s nothing wrong with that. The intention’s good. You’re passionate about what you do; that’s a – to me, such a huge thing in being successful. Intentions are good. But I don’t – I really don’t think you presented a good plan here to me tonight for me to hear. You City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 106 of 117 May 24, 2011 didn’t sell it to me. You didn’t sell it to me. The woman in the back had a lot for me. She said she didn’t know – we didn’t tell her what we wanted to hear. Well, this is your opportunity to sell this deal to us tonight, and it wasn’t sold to me. And I can’t give you a list of everything I want to hear. It’s your opportunity to present this to me and us. I share some of the same concerns; the legal issue – it’s out there. It’s like a floating cloud. It’s out there. It’s something that’s troubling. Number of dogs is absolutely an issue with me. Could there be a hundred dogs; could there by 50 dogs? We heard a lot of numbers tonight. And not only the number, but how do you control them ever? Is it a good faith effort on your part to say, “I’m only going to have six or eight dogs?” Do we have to watch over that, control it? Because I know that can change. You said people are constantly coming with dogs. That can change any given time. So, how do you control that, I don’t know. I didn’t hear that answer tonight, really, other than foster homes; and foster homes could come and go as well. Two other things that I – that are real key, and maybe the – probably, the most key with me right now is the strongest opposition from the City, from the city departments, Inspection, dog – DPW, dog department. They have strong opposition to this, and they have their reasons as strong for opposition as you do for the reasons you want this, and that’s like a tug of war. And the last thing I had that we talked about early on, I really never touched again is the Department of Ag (sic) approval. We have similar cases, sometimes, for children daycare that they come to us for variance approvals for – to have a group daycare for their children. And they don’t have approval from the state, and some of these places are very – in my mind, and things I see, are very loosely planned, not real good structure, and they’re looking to us to give them approval so they can go to the state and say, “Look, the City of Livonia gave me approval.” I think that’s absolutely backwards. I think this Department of Agriculture should come look at what you’re presenting. I think they should give you a punch list of the things they want to see done, if they deem that property fit at all; then that should be brought to us and then we’ll look at it, in my mind. So, at this point, I’m a “no.” Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I also see a lot of passion and commitment. I think your 501(c)(3)is because of an excellent organization. I see this could be an asset to the community, but, you know, there’s a few instances that I feel that we’re doing the work of City Council, as this seem – this is one of those instances that I think – the City Council, they’re the governing body. They’re the ones, I believe, that should be developing an ordinance for something like this, rather than have us go ahead and create something out of thin air. And, you know, that’s where my comfort level is not here. I would prefer to see a tabling motion. I would like to sit down with some of the other people that have an interest in this and find out why, you know, what’s their rationale; and I’d like to hear what the Council has to say about that as well, because it seems to me that it’s not the ZBA that should be doing this, it should be the Planning Commission and Council, in my view. So I would prefer to table this. I wouldn’t give up, necessarily. I think that he (sic) should come back, but I’d like to have more homework, and, you know, go online and, you know, explore what other 501(c)(3)'s do in regard to this so I could be more prepared to ask better questions. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 107 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: My comments are a lot like Mr. Harb’s. I agree that this can be asset to the community. You know that building’s been vacant for a while, and as I frequently say, you know, tool and die shops that existed in the industrial corridor aren’t coming back and we have to be creative about the uses that we have. This is a use variance which requires a heightened standard for approval and I’m not sure as I sit here tonight what the proposed use is. I’ll go along with a tabling resolution because I think it’s the fairest to the Petitioner. But, I think that the Petitioner should come back with a copy of the organizational bylaws. I think the Petitioner should draft a proposed set of rules with how the operation is going to run, which is very similar to what our doggy daycare petitioners have done. And the reason I say that is because we need to have some rules in place for the use. This is a use variance and we need to have some rules for how it’s to be enforced by Department of Animal Control. And for instance, if we’re going to limit the number of dogs to 75, just throwing a number out there – I don’t know if that’s too high or too low – then when animal control goes out there to do an unannounced inspection, if there are 150, I would expect there would be repercussions. I also think that, perhaps, you know, a temporary variance would be good for a year or two. I’d like to see more information from the Department of Agriculture. I think that due – it’s not the Petitioner’s fault, but I’d like to see what they think about your building, because like Mr. Harb said, this is sort of a policy-making decision and it’s clear to me, when I read letters from Ordinance Control and from the Department of Agriculture, that there are public policy reasons for why shelters have special requirements different from kennels; that’s – the state has an interest in shaping the rules for shelters, and has a different, you know, set of ration (sic) – or a different rationale for kennels and for doggy daycares, and for other types of businesses. So I’d like to see what they think, and I’d also like you to provide the proposed rules to the Department of Agriculture and Ordinance Control before the next meeting. I think that they should then be able to see your plan before the meeting and then make comment if they have anything. But that’s just my suggestion. I think it’s fair, and then the Petitioner would come back. And, you know, I understand that this is your first time coming before the Board, and I can only speak for myself, but I need more information. So, floor’s open for a motion. Mr. Pastor. Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Harb, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-23: Roberts Building Company, 36857 Schoolcraft Road, Livonia, MI 48150, on behalf of Lessee Better Life Canine Center, 9562 Telegraph Road, Redford, MI 48239, seeking to operate a dog rescue and training business with future overnight kennel facilities and outdoor fenced area on property, which is located within an industrial zoning. This use is not allowed within this zoning district. The property is located on the south side of Schoolcraft (36855) between Levan and Newburgh, be tabled to allow the Petitioner to address the concerns of the Board, and interact with other pertinent authorities. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 108 of 117 May 24, 2011 ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Harb, Aloe, Caramagno, Sills, Henzi NAYS: None Henzi: So this is tabled, and the next available date is June 28th. But if you want that date, you have to contact the ZBA office by June 8, at ten o’clock. You heard the motion and all of our comments, and, you know, take those to heart, try to bring that kind of information, and we’ll see you again in June. Petitioner: Okay. Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. Petitioner: Thanks. Unknown speaker: So next time you need six hours. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 109 of 117 May 24, 2011 ______________________________________________________________________ (10:58 #3/3677) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-24: Merri Five, LLC, c/o First Commercial, 27600 Northwestern Highway, Suite 200, Southfield, MI 48034, on behalf of Lessee AutoZone, 123 S. Front Street, Memphis, TN 38103, seeking to erect three wall signs upon an end business unit within a multi-tenant commercial center resulting in excess area and number of wall signs. Wall Sign Area Number of Wall Signs Allowed: 107 sq. ft. Allowed: Two Proposed: 114 sq. ft. Proposed: Three Excess: 7 sq. ft. Excess: One The property is located on the north side of Five Mile Road (31072) between Merriman and Bainbridge. Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add? Podina: No, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Podina? Hearing none, go ahead and introduce yourself. Petitioner: Brian Siddall, sign manager for Auto Zone, 123 South Front Street, Memphis, TN, 38103. Henzi: We received a packet and – Pastor: Mr. Chair? Excuse me. Henzi: Oh, I’m sorry; go ahead. Pastor: I just want to let the Board know that I have, in the past, done work for Auto Zone, although I haven’t done anything for the last 7 years or so. I just want to be open with that. Henzi: Okay. Go ahead, tell us why three signs at this size – Petitioner: I don’t know if – Henzi: – in these locations. Petitioner: Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt you. Henzi: Go ahead. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 110 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: I don’t know if you guys are – or any of you folks have driven by the site. This – yeah, it’s right there. I actually got to visit the site for the first time today. So, it’s right down there, and I’m going east, I guess. I noticed that – of course, there’s a Wendy’s right before you get to our site, which you’re going to see that Wendy’s up, up, up, and then you get – and you’ll see the front of our building. From the other side of the shopping center, you’ll see – that’s where our doors are. So, you know, we’re going to put a sign on the street side, which is the short wall, regardless, that – our one wall sign allowed. I guess we’re allowed two, technically. But – and then I would put my second one there facing that parking lot, which both of them – you know, one side I would be allowed to have 107 sq. ft., and the second sign I would be allowed to have half that; where both of the signs that I’m proposing are only 38 sq. ft. a piece. And then, the third wall sign that is over – on the wall that is adjacent to the bowling alley there, is definitely visible driving to the west. I think it’s a lot more visible than to be able to see that front wall sign, the one facing the street, because it kind – since there’s no monument sign or street sign there at this location, it acts as – your building is going to act as the sign, in other words. And I just am asking for that. I think it’s an extra 7 sq. ft. over what we’re allowed, and the sign’s are one in excess of the two allowed. Henzi: The signs will be all the same size; right? Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: Thirty-inch? Petitioner: Yeah, they’re all 30 inches tall, and they’re all just “Auto Zone” words. The orange striping is paint. Its architectural features, which were approved by Randy and Scott. So, the sign is just the “Auto” and the “Zone.” Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner? Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Is this the building that’s the Halloween store? Pastor: Yes. Petitioner: Yeah. Aloe: Okay. Thank you. Okay. That’s all I needed to know. Now I got it. Henzi: Any other questions? Mr. Harb. Harb: The Petitioner said that, according to the rules, he’s allowed 107, plus half of 107. I don’t think that would be the case. I believe the total is 107, and this isn’t considered a corner like the previous – is that right? Fisher: Well, let me just have a look and see what we’re – Harb: And while he’s – while Mr. Fisher’s looking at that, do you get overtime for – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 111 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: No. And, you know, one of the best parts about coming up north is we don’t have Five Guys Burgers & Fries down south, and I was so looking forward to that double/double and some fries, but they close at 10:00, and I was – and I wanted to let you guys know that I don’t do pool houses and that, and I don’t do dog kennels. So, I was hoping we could – Harb: Well, you have Rendezvous, though; that’s good. Petitioner: Yeah, we do. We have ribs just about a block away from the building. Harb: And I’m surprised that the orange stripe didn’t classify as part of the sign, because it has before at like 7-Eleven; that 7-Eleven stripe, you know, has – was classified as a sign before. Fisher: Well, this Board, though, if you remember sometime ago, took architectural details like that off the table. And in fact, I think Bill McDonald was still around at the time we did the 7-Eleven sign and he chastised us for including that in the sign with the ZBA. So, between those two things, I think that’s probably the right call to take this – to not consider the stripe. Anyway, in answer to the other question about the – will you get half again, the answer is, no, because that depends on having exposure to two major thoroughfares; and while the center arguably does, this building certainly doesn’t. I mean, maybe, you could argue that the unit on the other end of the center has exposure to both Merriman and Five Mile, but I don’t know how you argue that here. In fact, we just got through being told you can’t see this ‘til you get past Wendy’s. Harb: But you can almost see 80'2", plus half of 80'2", because really, that’s the frontage on Five Mile, you would think. But, anyway, we’re talking about 7 ft. (sic), and this in my eyes – why couldn’t you have a, you know, larger sign in the front, for example, or on one side and then two smaller signs? Petitioner: Well, technically, the landlord’s not allowing us to modify the structural aspects of the building, and that 30-inch sign is pretty much the only thing I can fit in there without going to something custom. A lot of people – what a lot of people don’t understand about box retailers, you know, fast retail chains like us that we put up a lot of stores in a year. Dollar General, Walmart, they all do the same thing. And all of these companies, they don’t make custom signs. All of them come off a shelf. We have them pre-made in bulk. Harb: Right; I understand that. Petitioner: And – Harb: But that’s – the – I’m seeing, you know, 40-inch ABC Warehouse signs, and I see 36-inch ABC Warehouse signs; or Rite Aid – Petitioner: Sure. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 112 of 117 May 24, 2011 Harb: – or Walgreens, whatever; Dollar Tree who was in here earlier today. Petitioner: If I’m going to go to – Harb: You know, it – Petitioner: Oh, I’m sorry: I didn’t mean to interrupt. Harb: You don’t have off-the-shelf? Seriously, you don’t have off-the-shelf, you know, “This is the 30-inch letters.” You don’t have 26-inch letters? Petitioner: No. Harb: You only have one – Petitioner: No, no, I have 30-inch, I have 36-inch, 42-inch, 48-inch, 54-inch, and 60-inch. Harb: So 30 is your smallest. Petitioner: And then I go into a 72-inch as well, if – in Tucson, AZ. Harb: You don’t have anything smaller than 30? Petitioner: Custom. I have to have it custom made. Harb: Okay. Thank you. Petitioner: Yeah. Because I mean the square footage is so small. Harb: Right. Petitioner: A universal typical sign ordinance is usually no more than 48 sq. ft., so that’s why we have the 30-inch, 38 sq. ft., in case it goes down to about a – if somebody says, “You can only have 40 sq. ft.” We’re trying to get underneath that. Henzi: Okay. Anything else? I guess there are no other questions; there’s no one in the audience. Can you read the letter? Caramagno: M. Nowicki writes – from 31004 Roycroft (objection letter was read). Henzi: Is it Mr. Siddall? Petitioner: It is, Siddall. Henzi: Siddall; anything you would like to say in closing? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 113 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: Only, I guess, with that letter, as vague as it may be, you know, I feel that everybody should be treated equal, too. But, we’re in a unique situation. We’re on the end cap. We have three sides to our building where most of everybody else in that center has one store front. Henzi: Thank you very much. Petitioner: Yeah. Thank you guys for staying, sticking with me, and not tabling this thing and making me go 900 miles back with a puffy lip. Pastor: Yet. Yet. We haven’t voted yet. Sills: You’re not done yet. Petitioner: Just the fact that you heard me is – you know, is a blessing to me; so, thank you. Henzi: Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Sills. Sills: I can approve this. I don’t think it’s excessive. I think the – being he’s – is on an end cap that he really needs the three signs. They do make sense to me, and as far as the traveling east or west, you can spot these things right away. And I’ll be in approval of it. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I don’t like the three signs. I don’t like the sign on the east side. I mean there’s no parking over there. I don’t see anything that would disturb the view if you were going west on Five Mile. I don’t have any problem with the square footage being over, but I don’t see the sense in the sign on the east side of the building. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: The 7 ft. is not a problem with me. The third sign, I’m going to be all right with it. It’s going to be good to see a full-time tenant in that building, and I’d like to see them advertise good and be able to be a viable business there. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I’m okay with the three signs as well, and I think 7 sq. ft.’s not too large of a – asking for, anyway. But, it seems like we’ve had the situation before with Auto Zone in particular. You know, absolutely no ground sign. If we’re going to give three – if you’re going to get three signs, you know, we’re not going to have, you know, two months from now the owner of the building coming in and saying, “We want a monument sign.” All of a sudden, there’s another sign, you know. So, I’d like to make that a stipulation. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 114 of 117 May 24, 2011 Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: When I first looked at this case, I didn’t see the need for the sign on the west side, actually, because the restaurant in front of them blocks it. But, looking at it a little closer, it’s a front door; so I understand that. And the east side sign I think is more critical than the west side. So, what I’d really love to do is table this, but I know I won’t get support. So, I suppose I’ll just support it. Henzi: Yeah, I agree with Mr. Pastor. I think it would look unnatural with a “D” side; plus, I think “D” side’s more critical. But Mr. Harb does raise a good point for the – Mr. Siddall’s edification. We did have that situation not long ago where we approved the sign package, only to have the landlord come back two months later and ask for a bigger, better monument sign, and we felt duped. Petitioner: Was this an Auto Zone location? Harb: Plymouth Road. Petitioner: I’m sorry? Plymouth? Harb: On Plymouth Road. Henzi: So – Petitioner: Before my time. Henzi: – I think that the sign package is reasonable, and it’s enough. It does the trick. So – Harb: Is this LED by the way? Petitioner: They are. Channel letters are LED. Harb: And what are the hours of these? Petitioner: 7:00 a.m. is when we open. Lights won’t go on ‘til it gets dark, and they’ll go off at 9:00. They go off when the cash registers shut down. Harb: Perfect. Petitioner: Well, maybe, 2 or 3 minutes after. But, they’re timed perfectly with closing. Harb: Does that say – does it say it here? Petitioner: It won’t say it there. That’s an operation’s deal. Harb: All right. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 115 of 117 May 24, 2011 Petitioner: But that’s when it happens. Harb: Thank you. Petitioner: And it’s not – really not for the exposure, it is energy efficiency; that’s why we do it. We don’t – there’s no necessary – there’s no necessity in running a sign if you’re not there, so. Harb: Thank you. Henzi: Thanks you for you candor at 11:15. We appreciate your honesty. Petitioner: No problem. You know, I do this a lot. I have to go all over the country and do these things, and I appreciate you all sticking with me and hanging in there. Henzi: Floor’s open for a motion. Podina: He was the first one here tonight, by the way. He was here at 5 after 5:00. Harb: You should have told him where the Five Guys was. It is right around the block and you could have made it. There’s one at Wonderland Mall. Caramagno: I got it. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-05-24: Merri Five, LLC, c/o First Commercial, 27600 Northwestern Highway, Suite 200, Southfield, MI 48034, on behalf of Lessee AutoZone, 123 S. Front Street, Memphis, TN 38103, seeking to erect three wall signs upon an end business unit within a multi-tenant commercial center, resulting in excess area and number of wall signs. Wall Sign Area Number of Wall Signs Allowed: 107 sq. ft. Allowed: Two Proposed: 114 sq. ft. Proposed: Three Excess: 7 sq. ft. Excess: One The property is located on the north side of Five Mile Road (31072) between Merriman and Bainbridge, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because Petitioner’s building is an end cap in the shopping plaza that has front exposure on Five Mile both east and westbound. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 116 of 117 May 24, 2011 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because the building sets back off of Five Mile and is partially blocked by a Wendy’s restaurant. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the sign package is consistent with other end cap buildings in Livonia. 4. The Board received no letters of approval and one (1) letter of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “General Commercial” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the signs be constructed as proposed on the plans which were presented to the Board. 2. That the sign lighting shall be turned off at closing. 3. That there will be no ground or monument sign allowed for Petitioner. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Harb, Sills, Henzi NAYS: Aloe Henzi: The variance is granted with those three conditions. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: Thank you very much. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 117 of 117 May 24, 2011 ______________________________________________________________________ Motion by Harb, supported by Mr. Pastor, to approve the ZBA meeting minutes of 4/19/11. All were in favor. ______________________________________________________________________ There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at 11:14 p.m. _____________________________________ SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary _____________________________________ MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman /mat