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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MINUTES 2018-12-11 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING HELD DECEMBER 11, 2018 A Regular Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, December 11, 2018. MEMBERS PRESENT: Gregory Coppola, Chairman Craig Pastor, Vice Chairman James M. Baringhaus, Secretary Janice Centers Lisa Fraske Timothy Klisz Joel Turbiak MEMBERS ABSENT: None OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, City Attorney Frank Hershey, City Inspector Marilyn Mootsey, Recorder The meeting was called to order at seven p.m. Chairman Coppola explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Seven (7) members were present this evening. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 10 people present in the audience. (7:03) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 73 December 11, 2018 TABLE OF CONTENTS Appeal Case # Pages 2018-12-50 3 - 17 (Community Choice Credit Union) 2018-12-51 18 - 33 (Blaskay-Carver Holdings, LLC) 2018-12-52 34 - 60 (Bradley Burns) 2018-12-53 61 - 72 (Robert Schmidt) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 73 December 11, 2018 APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-12-50: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Community Choice Credit Union, 31155 Northwestern Hwy., Farmington Hills, MI 48334, seeking to erect a six (6) foot tall vinyl privacy fence, which is not allowed in this commercial district. Also, any fence within 10 feet of the property line (right of way) must be no taller than three (3) feet. The property is located on the north side of Ann Arbor Trail (34930), between West Chicago and Joy Road, Lot. No. 131-99-0017-002, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 18.45(a), “Protective Wall; Required,” and Section 3.08, “District Regulations.” Coppola: Mr. Hershey, do you have anything to add? Hershey: No sir, not at this time. Coppola: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, if the Petitioner could go ahead and have a seat here at the table. Can you give me your name and address please? White: My name is Terry White and I live in Shelby Township. The -- our client’s location is 34930 Ann Arbor Trail and are located at Ann Arbor Trail and Warren. Coppola: Okay, if you can give me your street address also, please. White: My street address is 11921 Raintree Court and that’s in Shelby Township. Coppola: Okay. Why don’t you go ahead and tell me about your application for variance. White: Sure, I work for Team Facilities and Team Facilities does the facility management for Community Choice. Community Choice has got about 25 different locations and we do the maintenance for their facility as well as improvements and other things for them. The reason for their request of the fencing, the manager and several of the employees at the credit union, typically start work around 8 o’clock in the morning and on certain nights they’re there until well after dark. And the property to the north of them currently is an open forest wooded area and there has been quite a few sightings recently and in past years of people wandering through that -- through that wooded area. And it’s kind of a safety and security issue for the women that park their vehicles right along that wooded area. The parking lot is not really big, so they don’t have a whole lot of choices as to where they can park, so they try to park on the north portion of the parking lot so that their customers can use the balance of the parking spaces on the east side and also on the south side of the building. So, the -- the main reason for their request is really security and safety of the employees. They have, on occasion, had people come walking out of the woods and kind of like stand by their car. So, in the evening when they leave, they try and all leave together. They just in the -- and the winter months are the worst because it gets dark earlier and I -- and I believe the credit union normally closes up at like 6 o’clock, which puts it pretty much into the -- to the dark hours -- you know -- in the wintertime and City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 73 December 11, 2018 it just -- very -- uneasy situation for the ladies and also the gentlemen that work at the -- at the credit union. But also concerned as well for the safety of their employees and some of them do park over in that area, and I believe it was about a year ago in the summertime they decided they were gonna do a clean-up of that property and they met with the neighbor who is the party store owner, he also owns that portion of the property to the north of them. And they went out and started doing their cleanup and started coming across needles and all kinds of other things and just said this -- this isn’t the type of thing that we want to be too involved in. So, the request really is to put up a six-foot vinyl decorative security fencing and it would run about total of about 240 lineal feet and it would be set back from the sidewalk along Wayne Road, probably 35 feet so that there’s a place for them to be able to push snow. And then the properties -- the property owner to the west, the party store owner, also advised that if there’s a need to push snow over on his property that he has absolutely no issues with that. So, the relation between credit union and that property owner is very good at this point in time. Coppola: Okay. The building has -- has been a bank for what like 30 years or so, maybe even 40 years? White: Yes. Coppola: The land’s been vacant for that long. What’s -- I guess -- what’s changed? It’s been like this for 40 years. That’s been -- you know -- that’s been undeveloped on the north I’m sure -- by the look of the -- by the looks of the party store it looks like it’s been there a while before -- before the bank was there, so -- I mean -- what’s -- what’s really changed over the 40 years that -- that all of a sudden necessitates a privacy -- White: I believe there’s -- from -- from what the ladies have told me at the credit union, there is more activity in the woods both during the day and at night and I believe, from what they have told me, there are many homeless people along Wayne Road and I believe some of them, from what I was told, actually live closer underneath the bridge, which would be where the Hines Drive location is there, which is just on the other side of the apartment complex to the north of them. So, I think their biggest concern is that there’s been more activity recently than in the past and it seems to be kind of a congregation location and I know they have, I don’t have documentation on it, but they tell me that they have called the police a couple times and the police did come out, but there was never any -- any documentation or anything written up on it because they were quite concerned about the closeness of the strangers that were in that wooded area to their vehicles and every -- every -- every night when they look forward to going home that’s just something that they have to -- to deal with and their feeling and my feeling as well that if there was a six foot barrier there, just between them and where they park their cars, that that would really give them a -- a lot better feeling of safety and security. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 73 December 11, 2018 Coppola: How far does the property line -- where’s the property line comparative to the end of the parking lot on the north side? I didn’t get a -- we have -- an old landscaping plan, but I didn’t see any type of survey. White: Yeah, I got -- I got something from the Engineering Department downstairs, and it looks -- let see -- on that north side it looks like from the curb of the parking lot to the property line is approximately four feet. Coppola: So not much. Okay. White: That’s on the north -- on the north perimeter of the -- of the property. Coppola: Now, have -- have they looked at other alternatives like additional lighting, barrier landscaping? White: Two -- two years ago we put all new LED lighting on the parking lot and the trees that are along that north perimeter pretty much block the lighting from going into the wooded area, so it’s pretty dark in there. And -- I mean -- that -- that -- that was the intent when the lighting was installed was to keep it to the parking lot and not to light up the street and -- you know -- surrounding areas and that, so that was the objective at the time and it -- it is quite dark. I’ve been there at night and it is quite dark in the -- in the wooded area and there’s -- like last week when -- when I was there, and also, I was there this morning, there was a chair set up at the corner of their property behind the dumpster. So, like somebody was more than likely using that chair. We didn’t move it or anything, but it’s been sitting there for -- for some time, and there’s like cardboard on it or whatever, so maybe -- you know -- a homeless person or whatever might be sitting there. Maybe they’re going over to get food or something from the party store and then they sit back there and eat, I’m not sure. But -- but most of the people that have worked there said that there is activity later in the day and in the evening back in that wooded area Coppola: And then, what’s the purpose of -- it looks like, from the schematic you sent -- provided, that you’re asking to put a fence along the west property line -- White: Correct. Coppola: -- all the way to the front of the party store? White: It -- it would only go, and I’m -- I’m not sure if the drawing that you have has like ‘B’ on it about -- about mid-way there is a power pole -- Coppola: Uh-huh. White: -- and we would not take that all the way up to the front of the -- the party store, we’d only bring up half the -- half the depth of the party store. So, it would go to that where it’s marked length ‘B’. I’m not -- I’m not sure if the drawing that you have -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 73 December 11, 2018 Coppola: Yes, I see -- I see where it splits here, okay. White: Yeah, okay. Coppola: So, again, what -- what -- what’s the purpose of -- I guess for length ‘B’ then? I mean you’ve blocked off the woods if you had it to the north. Let’s say you cut that -- White: Just from keeping them -- Coppola: -- corner, that catty corner -- White: -- keeping them from walking around it - yep. Coppola: Well they’ll just walk around -- what would keep them from walking to the end of length ‘B’? White: Right, and -- I mean -- they could also walk to the east along the sidewalk and come in that way -- it’s -- Coppola: Yeah. White: -- it’s more of a physical barrier for the employees when they walk to their vehicle that they’ve got something between them and the wooded area -- I mean -- people can certainly come in from the south and the east and the west, but this fence pretty much provides a physical barrier between them and the wooded area. Coppola: Okay, I have one last question and then we’ll open it up to the rest of the Board. White: Yeah. Coppola: In your discussions with the owner of the property, you said he owned -- the north property is also owned by the -- the party store guy. White: Correct. That’s right. Coppola: Is there any -- is there any discussion regards to development of that -- that property? White: I did not ask him that question. I just asked him if there was any concerns that he had if we were to put a fence up and he was very receptive to it and said he understood. Coppola: Alright, thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: This would be to the Building Department or Law Department. Is there any type of fencing that they can put up here that would be compliant like a -- I know some -- some City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 73 December 11, 2018 properties they abut residential home have to put -- used to have to put up a concrete fence, something along those lines? Is there anything in ordinance that would allow them to put any kind of fencing up in this area? Fisher: Well, you’re right if there were residential -- residentially zoned property on the other side of the property line, they would be required to install a wall. There is nothing though when it’s another commercial property like this. Pastor: That’s pretty much the property against commercial property? Fisher: Right. Pastor: Okay. Coppola: Okay, lets expand that. When you say a wall it’s not a six-foot vinyl privacy fence it’s actually -- Pastor: Concrete. Coppola: -- concrete or -- or -- Pastor: Brick facing. Coppola: -- you know -- concrete or brick facade Pastor: Yes, brick wall. Turbiak: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: I’m looking at the zoning map here and it looks like directly to the north is -- is the same orange color, which is the R-7, so it does look to be residential directly to the north. Fisher: You’re looking at a zoning map? White: Where the apartment -- the apartment complex? Is that what you’re referring to? Turbiak: Well, there’s two parcels there, so like -- like you say, it seems that the property is owned by the party store owner, but it’s zoned R-7 just like the Parkway Heights Apartments. So, I believe when the commercial is built after the residential, they have to put it up. I don’t know, there -- there might be some -- might depend on the order of when these were built -- developed, or maybe at the time it wasn’t in the ordinance. Fisher: And they -- they may also have let them go as far as that goes. But I don’t -- I guess we need to look and see if there are any old variances from this platting. This doesn’t look like we have any. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 73 December 11, 2018 Coppola: What was provided in the packet -- I don’t think there was anything in regards to a variance to not build a fence. There was some parking issues and some other stuff, but -- Pastor: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Mr. Fisher, in light of that property zoned residential, it would be more appropriate for them to have a factory fence then -- I mean -- a brick wall back there in case they ever did build residential there. Fisher: If you’re saying would it be more appropriate than to have this fence constructed, I guess the answer is yes, at least that’s what the preference that’s reflected in the zoning ordinance. Pastor: Alright. Turbiak: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: To the Petitioner. Would you be willing to build a brick wall if that was preferable by the ordinance? White: Of six foot high or what? Turbiak: I believe so, yeah. Is that what it typically is? White: I’ll -- I’ll have to discuss that with our -- with our client to see if that’s a possibility -- I mean -- I -- I would think that because you’d have to put fittings in and that’s -- the price is gonna be quite a bit higher than putting a -- a vinyl -- you know -- attractive vinyl. Turbiak: It would provide more security. Fisher: The wall should be at least five feet and not more than seven feet of height if that helps. White: So, that idea is an option then to put a masonry brick fence up. Coppola: I think that would actually be permitted, but it would only be along the sections that abut residential, so you couldn’t go along the side of the -- of the west side of the building. White: In between commercials it’s not permitted then? Coppola: Right. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 73 December 11, 2018 White: Does it actually have to be masonry? I mean I know they make attractive looking fences that look like brick. Very epoxy -- you know -- solid material and that, but they’re supposed to last ten years, I don’t know if that’s true or not, but -- Fisher: Well, for details like that I recommend you talk to the Inspection Department tomorrow or in the coming days, but there are some -- there’s a variety of things -- approaches you can take to the wall environment up to and including a green belt, which I guess is what you have now and don’t want, so -- White: Yeah. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: To the Petitioner. The Chair asked you about why wouldn’t you put like a landscaping arborvitae all across there -- you know -- you could put five-foot arborvitaes in fairly cheap and they grow into a wall after a while. Why don’t you consider something like that? White: Yeah -- I mean -- it doesn’t really give you physical separation from somebody that’s on the other side waiting to -- Pastor: Have you ever tried to get through a wall of arborvitaes? Members: (all laugh). White: It takes quite a number of years to grow them together that tight too. It is an option -- yes, it is an option, but it’s -- that -- that’s mostly for -- for viewing rather than securing people from -- it’s not a solid fence, I guess is what I’m saying. But over a period of time -- you know -- ten years of trimming it and watching them all grow together it probably would work. Turbiak: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: To the Petitioner. If -- would you be willing to consider the masonry wall along the north and coming around the west corner there and then putting in arborvitaes on the west side up until maybe length ‘B’ or you could even go closer -- I believe -- if you wanted to? And one thing I noted in our packet is there was a landscape plan and it seems that there were some plantings there -- I don’t know -- I think it was existing -- you know -- plantings, so I don’t know what it -- what it was at the time that the landscape plan was submitted and I’m not familiar yet with what the City does as far as enforcing landscape plans, but I noticed that, at least on Google Maps, there’s nothing there on that west border there today? Is that true? Is there nothing on the west border as far as plants? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 73 December 11, 2018 White: I can’t say that I’ve seen a landscape -- was this with Michigan National when they were -- Turbiak: Yes. White: -- when they were in there? Turbiak: Yes. White: So, that’s probably been some time. Yeah, Texaco was there before them. Michigan National was probably 20 some years, I would imagine. Turbiak: To Mr. Fisher. Do we enforce landscape plans? Fisher: Absolutely. Turbiak: And does it maintain with the property or with the owner? Fisher: No, it goes with the property. Turbiak: Okay, so then they would be technically legally responsible to maintain that -- Fisher: Yes. Turbiak: Okay. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Yes, question for the Petitioner. Have you spoken to the owner of the property that owns that green belt - that wooded area? White: Yes. Baringhaus: About policing the area? In other words, what steps are they taking to reduce trespassing and to reduce the other like drug activities in that piece of property? White: I don’t believe there has been any policing on the owner’s part? Baringhaus: The owner’s part? White: The credit union has called the police, like I said, several times just to come out and take a look at what’s going on, but they have not gone out there themselves when the police have showed up. So, I can’t comment on that to be honest with you. Baringhaus: Sure. Earlier the idea of increasing the lighting of your property was discussed by Chairman Coppola. I noticed most of your lighting tends to be in the front of the building. I think you have three street lamps, maybe one on Ann Arbor Trail, two on City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 73 December 11, 2018 Wayne Road, which light the front of the building, but it seems like in the back of the building, where you’re having the problems and where the employees have security concerns, I noticed only one street lamp that was at the back of the property sort of where -- on the short corner -- White: Uh-huh. Baringhaus: -- that would go out to the prop -- the parking lot itself and then you had a small light on the back of the building as well. Did you look at increasing the lighting in the back of the building to increase the security? White: In -- in the back corner, that’s a double. Baringhaus: In the back, yeah, the back-parking area. White: Just recently, probably a week and a half to two weeks ago, we had a tree trimming company come in and just trim everything back and completely trim around that light, so we’re gonna get the maximum amount of light from those posts. Baringhaus: Yeah, because I noticed there were no -- no street lights along a lot of the green area -- the woods. Also, there wasn’t any lighting that I saw between the party store property and the bank property, again -- you know -- those are dark areas, a really quick solution for increasing your security is -- you know -- increasing the lighting on the property to secure the property itself. White: I understand. Baringhaus: Okay. I do have one question for Mr. Fisher. We have two letters that were submitted this evening, but one is from -- they look like they’re from employees of the credit union. White: Credit union. Correct. Baringhaus: Yeah. Isn’t -- I’ve -- isn’t it normal practice to request letters from the surrounding businesses and neighbors? I’ve never seen letters come directly from the employees of the business themselves, and I want to know if those could still be read into the record? Fisher: Well, those are obviously the result of some degree of lobbying internally and yes, the typical letters from somebody who gets the notice within -- because they live within 300 feet of the, or own property within 300 feet of the subject property. I think the answer is no reason not to read -- read them in here. Baringhaus: Okay, thank you. Centers: Mr. Chair. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 73 December 11, 2018 Coppola: Ms. Centers. Centers: In light of -- in light of what Mr. Turbiak brought to the floor regarding the zoning in the north part or the property to the north, just wondering what we thought about allowing the variance with the condition that if the residential area was built upon that they would have -- have to switch that fencing from the vinyl to the -- to the brick wall. Coppola: Looks like -- it’s a good point. I think that would be a -- a good time to bring that up would be during the Board’s comments if we get to that point. So, any other questions for the Petitioner? White: Is it possible to repeat what she said? I’m sorry I didn’t -- I didn’t get all that. Coppola: She was just suggesting that if there was a variance that was -- that was approved, that it would be a temporary variance and then if the property was developed to the north that -- that the variance would no longer be in existence. So, if it was developed in the residential, you would have to go -- you would have to comply and put up a wall -- a brick wall or a concrete wall and if it was commercial you would have to take it down and there would be no -- no fence. So, it would be -- we’ve don’t that in the past - - we’ve done temporary -- temporary variances based on the circumstances, so at some point -- I would assume at some point that will be developed. I don’t know if that would be a year from now or 20 years from now, but at that point it wouldn’t make sense to have a six-foot vinyl fence sitting between two properties. White: Right. If something more like a wrought iron type style of fencing acceptable that you could actually still see through, but it maintains security from one side to the other? Coppola: It would -- depending on potentially what color you pick and not even visible -- you know -- fairly not even visible to -- you know -- people driving by. I think that -- that type of proposal would be considered. White: With maybe that and a few more arborvitaes and things like that to -- to compliment the green scape that’s already there -- I mean -- it might be a little bit more acceptable on both ends. Baringhaus: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Yeah -- I sort of had a similar thought because when I looked at the package and I saw that you wanted a six-foot vinyl privacy fence. Really, that type of fence -- it’s more, at least in my mind, more residential. That’s more intended for privacy. I don’t know, it’s not really a deterrent -- I mean -- anybody with a little bit of effort could probably kick their way through it, so if anything, you’re using it more for shielding purposes. I -- I like City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 73 December 11, 2018 the idea that you’re thinking about a -- you know -- a heavier fence, possibly a wrought iron -- White: A little more decorative too. Baringhaus: -- Yeah. White: I mean -- it would look a little nicer. Baringhaus: Yeah -- a little more decorative, a little more secure for your employees. So, again, I guess my question is did you really think that a vinyl -- a vinyl privacy fence would be a deterrent for your problem? White: Probably from a cost standpoint. Baringhaus: Sure. White: It’s a little more cost effective. Baringhaus: True. White: But -- I mean -- If we were -- if we were to combine the wrought iron with the arborvitaes that might tend to balance crossed out. Maybe we don’t want it quite as long as what we had talked about -- Baringhaus: Sure. White: -- shorten it up a little bit more so it’s more where the people park. Baringhaus: Exactly. Okay, thank you. White: And there’s a barrier between -- and -- I mean -- I’m wide open for suggestions to take back to our client, cause -- I mean -- they -- they really want to see something done, but I think they’re open arms as far as coming up with any improvements that we can -- that we can work out. Baringhaus: Okay, so the vinyl privacy fence is an option, but you’re looking for other suggestions as well. White: Yeah -- yeah, maybe -- maybe we can limit it mostly to where they park at and then just around that corner from that dumpster -- where that dumpster is, so that it’s -- it’s got some dimension to it anyhow so that it does provide some sense of security. Baringhaus: Sure. White: Without it being an eyesore. Baringhaus: Great. Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 73 December 11, 2018 White: Yes, thank you. Coppola: Any questions? Seeing none. Correspondence? Baringhaus: Yes. Coppola: Can those be written to record? Baringhaus: Yes, they can, but do you want to do public comments first or do you wanna do -- Coppola: Yeah, I probably should. Baringhaus: Okay. Coppola: Your call. Let’s do some. Anybody in the -- in the audience that would like to speak for or against this project? Please step forward. Baringhaus: Okay. Coppola: Okay, none. Correspondence. Baringhaus: Letter of approval. Danielle Strickmen, 34930 Ann Arbor Trail, Livonia, MI. (Letter read.) Letter of approval. Craig Menden, 34930 Ann Arbor Trail. (Letter read.) That’s it. Coppola: Any final statement, Mr. White? White: Nope, I just -- I appreciate your open-mindedness and I guess I just would like to get an opportunity maybe to discuss it further. I’m not sure if it would be with the Inspection Department or what group it would be with to look at other options that would be acceptable such as a wrought iron type fence, maybe combined with some -- some more greenery such as the arborvitaes and that type of thing to -- to pretty much satisfy our -- the needs of the security and safety. Coppola: Okay, thank you very much. I’m gonna close the public portion of this case and open the public comments with Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: I think -- I think we made some good progress on this. I hadn’t, before it was brought up by Craig, I hadn’t -- Mr. Pastor -- I hadn’t considered that that was residential directly abutting to the north and the way I see it -- it seems like the Petitioner would be best suited to -- if we were to table this and then take it back and discuss it with the Inspection Department and see if he can’t work something out that’s -- you know -- doesn’t require a variance. Some of my comments that I didn’t share were that -- and I do like the wrought iron fence better than the privacy fence like Mr. Baringhaus mentioned -- it’s more for screening and I think that it wouldn’t prevent someone from lurking in front of the car and giving them screening from the back -- you know -- from people driving City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 73 December 11, 2018 southbound on Wayne - to see them and kind of give them more cover and better chance to -- to lurk in some regards. I -- I -- I heard the Petitioner mention that there was some police -- calls to the police. I would have liked to have seen those documented and I would recommend that in the future that those are documented so that they can be used as evidence for their case -- for their purpose. That’s -- and I also thought that adding new light poles would have been -- should be considered as well in solving this problem. I think that would go a long way to increasing the security. That’s all I have. Coppola: Thank you. Ms. Centers? Centers: Thank you. First of all, thank you for demonstrating care and support of your employees. I appreciate that on their behalf. Also, I am also in favor of the iron fence, rather than the solid vinyl and I think that I would be able to support that iron fence with the variance on the condition that that fence would of course need to be updated and changed based upon the development of the property to the north and yeah, I would be in support if we went that route. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I would be in support of a tabling motion. I think the Petitioner has demonstrated a need to look at this a little further and maybe talk to the Building Department to see what he can come up with and I also like the wrought iron fence, but I do know our code requires that we have brick wall and or part a brick wall fence, and there’s no similar options as I understand. So, I’ll be in favor of a tabling motion. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: I too will be in favor of a tabling motion. I think we had some good discussions this evening. You have some ideas to take back, changing the type of fence, reviewing your lighting plan for the property itself. Also, I’d like to see the owner of the wooded area take more responsibility for the activity in the woods that’s impacting the safety and security of your employees, so maybe that’s a couple follow up discussions with them. And I think an excellent suggestion is using the Building Department for you - contacting them and seeing what options are available for you so you can get a secure wall in there and get a long-term solution in there as well. So, again I would favor tabling this, so it would give you time to come back and review another plan with us. White: Okay, thank you. Baringhaus: Thanks. Coppola: Ms. Fraske. Fraske: I -- I’m in agreement with all of my colleagues and I’m in support of tabling it. First of all, I want to -- I want to tell you I appreciate you being open to our suggestions City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 73 December 11, 2018 and I also agree that I appreciate your -- your concern for your employees and this is a - - you know -- unique situation in which there is an obvious need for something to be done, so I’m in support of -- White: Thank you. Fraske: -- looking at something different, but making it work - making something work. Coppola: Thank you. Mr. Klisz. Klisz: And I -- I agree as well. Pretty much everything that’s been said. Starting with the Building Department to see if there is some non-required need to come back for a variance, then you don’t have to at all, or if it’s part of it then you can tailor your new plan to meet that given obviously -- you know -- if you’ve -- if you listened to the support enough to get four people’s approval then you got it. So, I think there is sort of a consensus of a desire for a different plan -- one that would probably work for everyone and I look forward to seeing you come back next time. White: Okay. Coppola: I think tabling it to give you an opportunity to develop an alternative application make sense. I like the suggestion of more of a -- a non-sight obscuring fence, only because I think if you created that blockage of visibility, you’re actually probably gonna end up with a bigger problem behind that fence which will come over the fence sooner or later. So, having something that’s a barrier keeps people from coming in yet is not sight obscuring so, you can tell when things are going wrong back there and get it taken care of quickly makes -- makes a lot of sense. In regards to the west side of the building, I really think using landscaping is a better solution and you should take that -- take that into consideration. And the only other comment I have then, before we open it up for a motion, is that I think whatever we approve should be, as suggested by Ms. Centers, be temporary because of -- we’ll have to see how that gets developed. It may get rezoned as commercial. If it’s a commercial property, the fence has got to -- it should come down. If it gets built as residential then the appropriate fence -- appropriate barrier needs to be put up. So, I’ll go ahead and open it up for a -- for a motion. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Upon motion by Pastor and supported by Klisz, it was: APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-12-50: Community Choice Credit Union, 31155 Northwestern Hwy., Farmington Hills, MI 48334, seeking to erect a six (6) foot tall vinyl privacy fence, which is not allowed in this commercial district. Also, any fence within 10 feet of the property line (right of way) must be no taller than three (3) feet. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 73 December 11, 2018 The property is located on the north side of Ann Arbor Trail (34930), between West Chicago and Joy Road, Lot. No. 131-99-0017-002, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 18.45(a), “Protective Wall; Required,” and Section 3.08, “District Regulations,” be tabled for the Petitioner to talk to his client and talk to the Building Department and take the Board’s comments into consideration and possibly come back in front of the Board if he chooses to present another plan. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Klisz, Turbiak, Fraske, Centers, Baringhaus, Coppola NAYS: None ABSENT: None Coppola: Any comments or any discussion? Pastor: There’s no discussion on a tabled motion. Coppola: Oh, okay. You never know. Coppola: So, your case has been tabled. Giving you an opportunity to come back. Do we wanna put a time frame on that at all? Pastor: No. It’s his choice. Coppola: Okay. So, go ahead and get back with Marilyn over at the Zoning Board. Our ndth next meeting is on the 22. You would need to submit your revised plans by the 26 th otherwise the following February 12 would be our next one. White: Okay. Coppola: Alright. Thank you very much. White: Alright. I appreciate it. Coppola: Call the next case, please. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 73 December 11, 2018 APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-12-51: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Blaskay-Carver Holdings, LLC, 139 Claremont Circle, Brooklyn, MI 49230, seeking to erect a ground sign which contains an electronic message center. The electronic message center is not allowed in this zoning district. The existing ground sign cabinet shall be removed in place of the proposed ground sign. The existing wall sign shall be removed, leaving only one (1) sign identifying this business. The property is located on the west side of Merriman (11837), between Plymouth and the CSX Railroad, Lot. No. 108-99-0030-000, M-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H,(o)1,5, “Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts.” Coppola: Alright, thank you. Mr. Hershey, anything to add? Hershey: No sir, not at this time. Coppola: Any question for the Inspection Department? Seeing none, if the Petitioner could give her name and address for us? Petitioner: Yes, I’m Doctor Susan Blaskay, the owner of 13 -- 11837 Merriman Road in Livonia, and I live at 139 Claremont Circle, Brooklyn, MI 49230. Coppola: Okay, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your sign - specifically l’d like to understand the electronic portion of the sign -- the purpose and exactly what it will do. Petitioner: My building, I’m sure many of you has driven -- driven by. It is located right across the street from the post office on Merriman Road, just north of Plymouth Road, and it’s really, really recessed. Now, Country Market has turned the Industrial Drive next to my office -- all the trucks are coming in and out. But, my sign -- when I bought the -- the property 18 years ago it already had an existing sign that was white, we just changed the inside. Well, all of my patients complained because of the five lanes of traffic and the 40 mile per hour zone and with all the cars going in and out of the post office all the time they’d always pass up my driveway. So, I’ve -- I’ve been for years I put up all these blow up balloons and blow up -- you know -- Christmas things and then they started coming up missing. People started stealing them. We put lights out, we did all kinds of things. We talked about putting flags down by the driveway, but that’s not allowed by the City. So, we came up with a design for a -- a new -- a new sign, however, when I was talking to the sign company they said that when people are driving by it’s much like retailers that are -- you know -- always change their merchandise around in a store because my building sets so far back you have to come within -- and the sign is can’t be back there because I’m surrounded by two residents, there’s trees and bushes in the way so they said that, and it’s only a foot of digital media, and it’s just enough to make people notice because it -- it will change -- you know -- every -- you know -- five seconds, three seconds, something like that. It won’t flash. I -- I chose full color too so it wouldn’t be so -- you know -- so it wouldn’t be ugly and obtrusive to my neighbors, most of which who have approved. I went City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 73 December 11, 2018 and spoke with my neighbor immediately next door, but he is out of town. He works out of town all week long except for the weekend, so I couldn’t speak with him to show him how much better it is and less obtrusive to my neighbors, but my issue is -- is that I have -- I treat a lot of elderly. I’ve -- I have a very, very busy office and day or night they can’t - - they drive by my building and as you drive down Plymouth Road there’s no way to -- no where to turn around so they turn around in neighbor’s driveways, the collision shop, trying to go around and they’ll have to come all the way around the other side and come back at it. It’s a constant, constant complaint and -- and it’s such a busy road that it leads to - you know -- accidents and things, so I had -- I had come up with this design and we had talked about keeping the existing sign above my building, but I pulled -- I -- I stepped back and talked to all my patients and said, “What do you think I should do? What would help you the best?” And they all were like, “No, yank the sign off the front of the building and do something so we can find you.” So, lots of money. Lots of money. Coppola: So, what would you be advertising with your changing electronic sign? Petitioner: I really wouldn’t be advertising. I would just put up closures -- if you noticed the way the sign stands it does not have my name on it or my phone number. That’s the only things that would be going up and pretty much closures. Wouldn’t be -- nothing would be flashing, nothing would be scrolling, nothing would be -- just enough to change little things, ‘Better health happens here’ maybe, just simple classic things. Something that says, ‘Stop Here’ or anything like that. Just enough where people -- you know -- will catch it when they’re pulling up. Coppola: Why not just opt for a for a larger lettering for the name of the -- of the -- of the business itself, than -- than taking up space with electronics? Petitioner: Well, I’m concerned that if I’m gonna spend $30,000 dollars that what if people still don’t see it and then it’s done. So, cause it’s that everything sits so far back and there’s so much foliage around because of the adjacent properties. You know -- I drove - - drove around the property day and night and took pictures and discussed it with the -- the -- you know -- the Planning Department, things like that and it’s problematic. Coppola: Does -- does the electronic sign have the capability to scroll -- does it have the capability to flash? Petitioner: Yes, but it’s not within the City Ordinances. Coppola: Okay. Questions? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: How long have you been at that location? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: 18 years. Baringhaus: And your patients still can’t find your practice? Petitioner: Yep. They drive by it. Baringhaus: Okay. Petitioner: Because they’re so concerned with traffic and the -- the signage is so poor. Baringhaus: You’re removing the signage on the building, which is the green lamps? These are pictures I have -- Petitioner: Uh-huh. Baringhaus: -- it’s -- Is that signage operational? Is it illuminated or is it -- Petitioner: Well, basically -- it was. And then they took -- the L.E.D.’s kept going out every time it rained or snowed so, I had a company -- they said, “We’re gonna take those out and replace them.” So, basically, in the inside of it now, if you’ve driven by l lately it looks like I have a string of Christmas lights in it, so you can see -- read -- read the ‘H’ the ‘A’ the ‘T’ -- yeah, looks pretty nasty. Baringhaus: Okay. Question for the Building Department. Given her -- her property and her facility what would be like the minimum sign package she would be entitled to? She would be entitled to a wall sign and a ground sign? Hershey: Yes, I believe so. Baringhaus: Okay. Why would you want to remove -- if you’re having problems with your patients finding your practice, why would you want to reduce your signage rather than maintain it? Petitioner: Well, because my building sits back an additional 15-20 feet from adjacent properties, so you really don’t even see my building until you get right on top of it and I had a variance when I moved in, Fernon Feenstra helped me get a variance to move, cause I was -- I was in a building that was next to a Mobil Gas Station, catty corner, the other side of Plymouth Road, so this had -- the property had this an -- their existing sign that was on the poles on the -- on the property, so I got a variance to move the other sign, because you were actually only allowed one sign on that property and I got a variance for two, but I’m willing to take down that sign, on the building, because it serves absolutely no purpose and to -- to get this sign where people will safely find my driveway and not come to a screeching halt -- you know -- try to turn right where everybody’s trucks coming in and out and turning into people’s driveways and trying to get around it’s just -- it’s terrible. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 73 December 11, 2018 Baringhaus: Cause the businesses that surround you -- you know -- have like a -- have a wall sign and then they also have a ground sign in front like the collision shop that’s a little ways down from you and half of the businesses on towards -- towards Plymouth Road and I just was wondering why you wouldn’t want to take advantage of any visibility that you could get? Petitioner: Well, in -- in prior meetings I was told that I can’t have both. Fisher: Yeah, I think that’s correct because she’s in an M-1 district. Baringhaus: Okay, gotcha. Petitioner: Because it was Industrial not -- I mean -- even though the building was always medical, it’s zoned Industrial. So, it’s -- it’s -- and then when you drive down Plymouth Road, if you’re heading south, actually when you’re coming down the street you see the collision sign way before you see my sign and they’re three -- three properties down from me. Baringhaus: The collision shop sits actually deeper than your building. Petitioner: Yeah, but their lawn sign appears -- and I measure it. It is ten feet back, but I -- I guess the way the -- the grass is or whatever or the trees or -- it -- it -- when you’re driving down Plymouth Road, you see that sign and you have to get almost right next door to -- just before the house before me before you can see my sign. Baringhaus: Have you considered -- you know -- more effective ground sign without the electronic reader board? Petitioner: Yes, yes I have, but advice has told me that -- you know -- just as much as a retailers when it changes people won’t notice it more, that’s why they change all their clothing racks around -- you know -- each day to -- you can’t find anything, but it’s too -- you know -- so people get used to seeing the same thing and I’m -- and the -- a new sign is extremely, extremely expensive and I -- I -- I got one shot to do this and I wanna make sure I do it right and if I want to help my patients find my building I wanna make sure they find my building, and this is what the sign company said would optimize that. Baringhaus: Okay, thank you. Klisz: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: What are the reasons for the smiley faces? Petitioner: Oh, it’s just decorative. I thought it looked cute. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 73 December 11, 2018 Klisz: Cause I think it would look more professional without it. That’s just my opinion anyway. Because I see what you’re saying and it’s probably better -- your existing sign does look very thin font, very hard to read and so -- again -- we’ve -- we’ve dealt with the electronic sign situation and for the most part it’s frowned upon. We’ve definitely turned people down within -- in my time on the Board, but things tend to be changing and what not so, but I would assume that if -- you’d still take the sign if the faces were gone, correct? Petitioner: Yes, you know what’s interesting.is I actually stole that idea from a dentist in Macomb. Macomb Family Dentistry and I thought it was very, very appealing. I thought it showed that I was a happy family place, so. Yes, but I just think that’s a matter of personal opinion. I think it $35,000 dollars’ worth of beautiful. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Yes, with the -- with the electronic sign you said you have neighbors on each side of your business. Will that sign be flashing into their properties or into their homes? Petitioner: No, not at all. The -- my -- my building sets back and actually the light sign that is there now, with the blaring L.E.D. lights in it, that you can see through the plastic, is much more obtrusive than the new proposed sign. The statements that I -- you know - - gave you earlier -- they’re from four of the five surrounding, immediate surrounding, neighbors. All except for the one that -- you know -- lives out of town all week and not here on the weekend, and he and I have a very good relationship. He’s -- he’s complained in the past about my -- my white blaring sign and he’s lived in that property since before I was -- I purchased that property, he’s lived in that property since 1989 -- he bought it off his grandfather and -- you know -- and so when I took over the property he was -- he wanted me to turn off the sign, and turn it down and I -- you know -- I said, “Yes, I’ll turn it off at 11:00 at night and, but he’s lived in there and lived next to that sign -- you know - - different signage and I wanted to go and show him that -- you know -- how much better it is and that it won’t be flashing and that it’s darker and night the only that will show up is the Healthline and just the little -- you know -- LED that’s full colors that won’t be -- you know -- light bulbs out and won’t be trashy, won’t be -- you know -- we’ve always -- I’ve always worked well with him, so, I don’t expect that to be a problem. Baringhaus: And with the proposed sign, would it be on a timer or what would the hours of operation would that sign be? Petitioner: Yes, yes, it would be on a timer. Baringhaus: And what time do you think it would shut off? Petitioner: About the same time -- about 11 -- 11 o’clock at night. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 73 December 11, 2018 Baringhaus: Okay. Going back to Mr. Klisz’s comment -- I mean -- you’re located right across from the post office and that section of Merriman -- there’s a lot of traffic on it, which -- which it’s a very busy section of road and I guess my question is do you think an electronic reader board that changes message quickly would be read by vehicle traffic going 40 - 45 miles an hour down that street -- do you have -- I think you might -- do you think you would be better served, as Mr. Klisz suggested, by just maybe not having the electronic reader board, but more stronger, bigger font that would better identify your -- your business? Petitioner: See, I’m not really interested in people reading it. I’m interested in it, just the fact that it changes, people will glance. That’s it. People -- my -- my patients will notice it. Baringhaus: Okay, thank you. Petitioner: Uh-huh. Turbiak: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: To the Petitioner. Do you know what the issue that your patients missing the location is more for the patients approaching from the south or from the north? Petitioner: Both. Turbiak: Okay. I -- I -- some comments, I guess. I -- I tend to agree -- I mean -- I looked at the -- I drove by it today and I’m looking at it on Google and -- when you’re going southbound -- you know that house on the south side of Enterprise is light colored, yellowish, and it kind of matches your sign, it’s hard to pick up in that background, so I kind of like your direction to go black. I think it will stand out more. One question I have is on the sign design it says 25 feet, I was wondering, square feet, how did you or the company calculate that, do you know? Petitioner: We went -- went into the zoning in the sign, whatever you call it -- you know - - what it -- what it says that we’re allowed in that type of zoning for the maximum signage and kept it within. Turbiak: So, 25 feet is, 25 square feet, is within the allowable -- I -- do you know what the allowable is? I thought maybe it was 30. Petitioner: It’s -- it’s -- all I know is it’s within thirty. Turbiak: Okay. No, I was looking at the dimensions here and I didn’t see how you calculated -- how you would come to 25 square feet, so I was wondering, do you know who calculated that? Was that the sign company or was it --? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: Yes, yes. Turbiak: Okay. Petitioner: And then they even included the little bubbles that go outside, so it’s right to - - and it’s to the bubbles so it doesn’t -- it’s not just the black area, it’s the entire height of the sign. Turbiak: So, so it’s the entire black area, basically? Petitioner: Yes. Turbiak: Okay, so if you’re coming from the south it seems like the, and -- and maybe you -- you can even make the same comment for those coming from the north, that Enterprise Drive is a street and it should be pretty easy to identify -- I mean -- street signs are designed that way. They’re up higher and I believe you have an entrance off Enterprise today, is that true? Petitioner: Yes. Turbiak: Okay, so could you encourage your patients to use Enterprise Drive instead of -- Petitioner: Oh, I do. Turbiak: Okay. Petitioner: I do, but -- but even coming from the opposite direction, cause they’re -- since Country Market has changed their trucking entrance off of Plymouth Road onto Merriman, there’s just truck traffic, truck traffic it’s -- it blocks me even further, so people just miss it. Turbiak: Okay. I believe I had another question, but I -- I can’t think of it right now. I’ll open it back up to my colleagues. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: How do you communicate the location of your practice to your patients today? Or to anyone wanting to schedule an appointment with you today? How do you communicate the location of your offices for current patients and for perspective patients? Petitioner: We give everybody -- you know -- the address and most people google it and then google it and drive right by it. Baringhaus: Do you have a website that provides directions? Petitioner: Yes. Yes, but on the west it’s a continual, continual problem. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 73 December 11, 2018 Baringhaus: Okay, thank you. Coppola: Just a couple follow up questions. Follow up to what Mr. Baringhaus. What -- what are your hours of operation -- days and hours of operation? Petitioner: Monday thru Friday we go 8:30 till 6:30 p.m. Coppola: The weekends? Petitioner: And then we have -- our therapists stay, they stay later -- so, it’s up to 8 p.m. Saturdays from 8:30 till like 1:30, 2:00. Coppola: Okay, so the sign costs $30,000. How -- how much -- what was the additional cost for adding the LED? Petitioner: The $10,000. It’s $10,000. Coppola: So -- so, a third of the cost is the LED? Petitioner: Uh-huh -- and it’s only 12 inches. Coppola: So, would you consider, in regards to the LED, limiting the operation hours to the hours that you’re open? In other words -- Petitioner: Yes. Coppola: -- LED gets turned off at 6:30 on weekdays, one o’clock or two o’clock on Saturdays and not on -- on Sunday’s type of thing? Petitioner: Yes, or could I have it -- Coppola: Again, if the main purpose is for you to be noticed -- if you’re not open you don’t need to be noticed. Petitioner: Uh-huh. Coppola: Maybe that would be a compromise. Cause you’re talking about running it to 11 o’clock. I don’t see a need that -- for it to run to 11 o’clock if the main purpose is for you to -- so your clients can see where you’re at. Petitioner: Uh-huh. Yeah, I agree. If you notice on the sign too it doesn’t say my name or my phone number. Could I just have it static and just have the phone number? As long as it wasn’t like bright and blaring? Coppola: That’s a -- that’s a good suggestion. We’ll probably discuss that during our Board comments. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: Cause I purposely -- you know -- left my name and phone number off of that so, if I should I retire or something and sell the building, my $35,000 sign will be able to be saleable as well, because then they could put their name in there and their phone number in there. Coppola: Any other questions? Turbiak: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: To the Petitioner. I think in the application you mentioned traffic accidents. Do you have any records, or can you tell us any that you know of? Petitioner: Well, it was interesting because when I first moved into that office, cause I lived -- I had an office catty corner and -- and next to the Mobil Gas Station, which was really difficult to turn left into. And in the ten years that I was there, there were four accidents. And when I first moved to this building, the new building, in the first six month there were four accidents of people -- mostly people trying to turn left into the building. So. That’s a big -- Turbiak: Yeah, I don’t see how turning left at a sign is gonna avoid traffic accidents in that case if they’re turning left into the building -- Petitioner: Yeah, but that’s the answer to your question. Turbiak: Okay. So, then you mentioned something about people turning though too. Do you know of any accidents that were caused in that scenario? Petitioner: No. Turbiak: Okay. That’s all, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Alright. Other questions? Is there anybody in the audience who would like to speak for or against this petition? Seeing there’s none. Do you have correspondence? Baringhaus: Yes, I do. Letter of approval, K. Koebel, 11727 Merriman. (Letter read.) Letter of approval, David Black, 11940 Merriman. (Letter read.) Letter of approval. Frank Welkgaran, 11939 Merriman Road. (Letter read.) Letter of approval, Lisa Galkowski, 11735 Merriman Road. (Letter read.) Letter from Gene Walter, 11885 Merriman. (Letter read.) Letter from David Anyan, 11735 Merriman Road. (Letter read.) That’s all the letters. Coppola: Any final comments? Petitioner: No, I’m just trying to figure out who that was, what property address that was. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 73 December 11, 2018 Coppola: That was 11735 Merriman, which was -- would have been your neighbor to the south. Pastor: But there was two people that came from that same address. Coppola: And then 11885 was, no there was one, that was the neighbor to the north with the two objections, wasn’t it? Pastor: But 11735 there was two -- there was two letters that had the same address on it. Baringhaus: One’s 11735 -- Baringhaus: No, they were both identical 113 -- two letters from 11735. Petitioner: Alright, then I do have a final comment because I wasn’t able to get ahold of Gene -- I didn’t realize he had a roommate, so his cousin is a patient of mine so, I -- I talked to him cause he was gonna see him at work on Saturday, so I said could you please -- you know -- show him what the new sign is gonna look like. I’ve made several attempts to -- to visit him at his home and explain to him it was going to be better, because he had objected to it -- to it previously so I wanted to make sure that -- you know -- we have like a -- no -- nobody wants a bad neighbor, so apparently he -- he -- you know -- he did get -- he was able to look at the sign, but his roommate was not, so. Makes me happy that he’s gonna be happy. Coppola: It’s not often we get a letter of objection and approval from the same address. Klisz: Yes, they’re conflicted. Pastor: First time ever I even remember hearing that. Baringhaus: You mean yourself and your wife always agree? Klisz: No comment. Coppola: Alright, I’m gonna go ahead and close the public portion of this case and start the Board’s comments with Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I think that again, there’s definitely a problem with the existing sign. It is hard to read and -- and elderly people missing it would not -- not be shocking.to me. The new sign again, I think I’ve made my -- my preference known before that it looks good except for the colored smiley faces. I think that it should be on a timer, it should be the electronic portion should only run during business hours and it -- you know -- should have other restrictions such as the flashing and the -- and the other requirements I think of the City’s electronic sign portion of the -- of the laws dealing with that where it’s -- you know -- has City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 73 December 11, 2018 to be static for a period of time and so on, so that -- that’s my comments at this point in time. Coppola: Ms. Fraske. Fraske: I would support the variance for the same reasons that Mr. Klisz just mentioned. That it’s on a timer, that it’s only running during business hours, that I like the idea that it’s bigger and that there’s less flashing if that’s possible if they can do that, or if you just put like you said put maybe your phone number or something so that it’s not continually flashing. But if those things were done than I would be in support. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: The one thing I guess I’m concerned about is that current City Ordinances don’t allow this type of signage in an M-1 zoning area. You don’t see a lot of the signage in a lot of surrounding cities as well - very limited use of electronic signs. I personally think you’d probably be -- yes, you do definitely need some improved ground signage for visibility on the property. One thing I am concerned about is the fact that you are -- you do have residents on each side of your business. I’d kind of like a little more clarification on the direction of that sign and then also the impact of it -- you know -- operating, especially at night flashing into their homes as well. Personally, I would recommend tabling this till we get that information and make sure that -- you know -- the sign isn’t intrusive -- you know -- on your neighbors as well. Thank you. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Normally I would not approve something like this. I don’t care for these electronic boards. I actually think this is a big compromise. The Petitioner is taking down a large sign on the building, she’s removing a sign that no one can see. When I first went by this place, when this first case -- when this case was first presented and got tabled, I drove by it and I had my GPS on, and I drove by it. So, I can see how her patients are driving by this place very easily. I have no problems with this sign. I think it’s fairly attractive, smiley faces I can take or not take, I don’t care. I would not want that LED to flash very often of -- you know -- change text and we do have some ordinance towards that. So, I think that would -- that would handle that portion of it. So, I’d be in support of this. I -- I think it’s a fairly attractive sign and I think it will bring your patients -- I think her patients would finally be able to see it. Coppola: Ms. Centers. Centers: I too agree that there is a unique setback situation here and replacing the sign is gonna do it for you. I promise that people are gonna see you. What I wanna caution about is I think that there’s something to be said for simplicity sometimes and perhaps if the smiley faces were removed and I’m not a fan of the flashing, I’m not a fan, and literally the health line in the Family Chiropractic and Massage -- everything was increased to a City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 73 December 11, 2018 larger size I wonder if that -- the increased size, the simplicity, would actually be better for the purpose of way finding and then you have it illuminated which is already ten times better than what we have already and it looks better - also ten times better than what you have already. Those would be my suggestions. I would not support anything that flashed. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: I’m generally against these electronic message boards and although I -- I understand your situation, I cannot support in this case. I -- I believe that the new sign itself will go a long way. You mentioned using some inflatables and I think that you were trying to use those to serve as a landmark and I think that just the new sign itself will serve as the landmark and then -- you know -- unlike those inflatables won’t be removeable or -- or -- you know -- able to be stolen. I don’t -- I don’t think I want to set a precedent in this city where -- you know -- the zoning, especially the zoning, doesn’t allow it. I think there’s good reason for that. I drive through some other cities. I think of driving down Telegraph where there’s a lot of flashing LED lights and I just don’t care for it. I think it detracts from the beauty of the City and I think that you can achieve what you’re trying to without the LED, so I think some other form of the sign, so, if it’s voted on as -- as is I would deny it, but I -- I propose for -- I think -- tabling and coming back with another sign might be better suited. Coppola: Thank you. I think I can be in support of this with some -- some limitations. I think it’s an improvement to what is existing today, the wall sign and the ground sign right now is a significant improvement comparatively. This is an M-1 district and it’s really not an M-1 business, it’s really more of a commercial business, so -- I mean -- that’s kind of the unique nature of -- of that. There is a hardship here, it is very hard right now to locate that -- that business. So, the sign will be helpful. Limitations that -- that I would look for in approving a motion, is that it would only -- the electronic sign would only stay on during business hours. So that once you’re closed that -- I’m fine with a phone number, but it has to stay static and it has to go off when the sign goes off. So, if you’re gonna turn the sign off at -- at 11, and it has to be a low light. You’ve got neighbors, there’s residential around there, which real estate -- it’s an M-1 district I don’t even know why there’s residential houses in an M-1 district, but there are because they’ve always been there, but you have neighbors, so you have to be mindful of those neighbors. The other limitation is -- is -- is this variance is only for current ownership. If ownership were to change then that electronic sign would have to -- to be removed for the new owner, so I’ll go ahead and open up the floor for a motion. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman, I do have a question now. You keep using the term flashing. So, in other words it seems like when the sign changes messages it’s gonna give off some sort of like flash or change in intensity. Is that what we’re talking about or are we talking about like stop here where -- where it’s flashing. I don’t know maybe there’s some ordinances in terms of how often -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 73 December 11, 2018 Coppola: I believe there is. Baringhaus: -- the message can change on the sign. Fisher: Well, yes. The message can’t be changed more frequently than every five seconds and it has to totally change it can’t -- like you’ll -- if you see the Applebee’s sign that’s an example of a sign that violates the rules pretty much every change -- I mean -- they have - they’re like creative in thinking up ways to violate the ordinance. Baringhaus: I drove past there today and was temporarily blinded. Fisher: So, and that’s the opposite -- think of that, think of the opposite of that and you got what you’re supposed to do. Baringhaus: Okay, great. Thank you. Petitioner: Mine’s only 12 inches. Coppola: Unless it’s -- you know -- there -- there -- there’s ordinances in regards to how long the sign should be there -- each message should be there and how the message changes -- you know -- the message, even if it stays five seconds isn’t supposed to be flashing or any of those. Those are an ordinance-based thing and those will be -- be maintained and monitored pursuant to the ordinance, but from the perspective of what I suggested is that -- you know -- certain things need to be done and only -- you know -- only changes during business hours. You’ve told me what your business hours are. It can only be lit, when the whole thing’s lit, and I would suggest it doesn’t change, so if you want to put your phone number there, or your name there and that it be toned down in the lighting. In other words, lighting come down significantly and realistically I don’t see any reason to stay open -- you’ve got neighbors, if you could turn it off at eight o’clock that would be like really -- that would be the ideal thing. There’s two residential houses both sides of you. It would be nice to keep it down, so I get what you’re trying to do. There’s a hardship there. I think if -- if we can manage the usage, and then you seem a reasonable person, then it’s something that we can work with, but again you seem like a reasonable person and the reason I have limitation on ownership is because the next person may not be and I don’t wanna have to -- to manage through that, so that’s why the limitation on your -- on the ownership. So, it -- so it -- so the variance belongs to the business, theoretically not -- not the -- not the location. Petitioner: Gotcha. Centers: I remember the Petitioner saying that they wanted the sign specifically because it would change and draw attention and I want that just to be thought about again. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 73 December 11, 2018 Baringhaus: I agree, because if you look at -- there is one picture in this package where it shows the location of the current sign and that -- and it’s the white background ground sign and it lines directly with the side of the neighbor’s house, so I think the lighting and the hours of operation, if we’re gonna go forward with this, are critical, because -- yeah, I can see why they commented on that in their letter, and I think from my point of view I totally understand -- I mean -- it’s in a direct line of sight to the side of their home like where you would find -- you know -- possibly -- you know -- living room side windows for like a living room or a bedroom -- this picture right here. Coppola: Yeah, there’s also a -- let’s see -- there’s a ground sign on the opposite side of that street that says “Allied” on it, at least what it looks like it says, and I -- I believe that’s ground lit, isn’t it? Baringhaus: I -- I don’t think that is. Coppola: Or it’s lit, so -- I mean -- and they also live on Merriman Road. Petitioner: Across the street from a post office where there’s traffic going into their front windows. Coppola: So, I am mindful of not creating -- making it any worse than it already is, but I - - I get what you’re saying. Petitioner: I am respectful of my neighbors. I will go talk to them and we’ll discuss what works for them, because I don’t want something nasty and flashing either, but I do want it to change five -- you know -- in five seconds, six seconds, I -- I’m gonna have to go look because I don’t want it to be too fast, but I want it to -- you know -- change what it says, but slowly. Centers: So, within -- Petitioner: But it won’t be flashing it’ll just change from my name, or we’re closed, or sometimes it might be static, but -- you know -- I’m not a -- one of those -- you know -- I’m not Applebee’s. I don’t like that either. It’s my -- my business -- it’s my home. Coppola: That’s it. Motion? Klisz: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Upon motion by Klisz and supported by Pastor, it was: APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-12-51: Blaskay-Carver Holdings, LLC, 139 Claremont Circle, Brooklyn, MI 49230, seeking to erect a ground sign which contains an electronic message center. The electronic message center is not allowed in this zoning district. The existing City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 73 December 11, 2018 ground sign cabinet shall be removed in place of the proposed ground sign. The existing wall sign shall be removed, leaving only one (1) sign identifying this business. The property is located on the west side of Merriman (11837), between Plymouth and the CSX Railroad, Lot. No. 108-99-0030-000, M-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H,(o)1,5, “Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts,” be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. That the uniqueness requirement is met because of the location of the building in respect to Merriman Road and the current signage that is basically worthless to the Petitioner’s clients. 2. That denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because essentially there could be traffic accidents in that area from seniors trying to find her location. 3. That the variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because our restrictions of the lighting of the sign will make it fair. 4. That the property is classified as General Commercial under the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, this variance is granted with the following conditions. 1. That the sign only be illuminated, both lit and electronic, during the Petitioners’ business hours ending no later than 8 p.m. Monday through Saturday, and will not be illuminated on Sunday, because the business is closed on Sunday. 2. That the variance be only granted to the current petitioner and not run with the land. 3. That the electronic portion of the sign be consistent with and follow the current ordinance as it relates to the changing of the sign’s messages, the timing of such changes and all that is outlined in the current ordinances regarding electronic signs. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Klisz, Pastor, Baringhaus, Coppola, Fraske NAYS: Turbiak, Centers ABSENT: None Coppola: Motion by Mr. Klisz, Supported by Mr. Pastor, is there any discussion? Petitioner: Am I allowed to say something at this point? Coppola: No. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: Okay, thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: The sign is gonna be with the building, or with the business is what you’re saying? Coppola: The variance. I think the -- Pastor: The variance. Coppola: -- the sign is conforming except for the electronic portion. Pastor: Although the new person can come back in front of ZBA and ask for the continuous. Coppola: They can come back, but they just don’t have it automatically. Pastor: Alright, I just want to make it clear that it doesn’t have to be taken apart if she sells the building. They can -- the new -- new client -- the new person can come in front of -- Coppola: Within a reasonable amount of time, yeah. Pastor: Correct, okay. Coppola: Okay? Any more discussion? Seeing none, go ahead and take the roll. Baringhaus: 5-2 motion passes. Coppola: Congratulations your variance is approved. Do you understand your conditions? Petitioner: Yes. Coppola: Again, only during business hours. I think he actually gave you a little bit more, he said eight o’clock Monday through Saturday, but not on Sundays. The variance stays with you and then you just need to comply with all ordinances related to electronic signs. Petitioner: Absolutely. Thank you everybody for your time. Coppola: Thank you. Petitioner: Thank you. Can you call the next case please? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 73 December 11, 2018 APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-12-52 (Tabled on December 11, 2018): An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Bradley Burns, 31226 Six Mile, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to remove a detached garage and construct a new detached garage, while maintaining an attached garage and shed (144 sq. ft.), resulting in excess number of garages and garage area. Garage Area: Number of Garages: Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Allowed: One Proposed: 2220 sq. ft. Proposed/Existing: Two Excess: 1500 sq. ft. Excess: One (720 sq. ft. Existing Attached Garage, Proposed Detached Garage Addition of 1500 sq. ft.) The property is located on the north side of Six Mile (31226), between Merriman and Cross Winds, Lot. No. 043-99-0012-001, RUF-C Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 2.10(5), “Definition of Miscellaneous Terms; Garage, Private,” and Section 18.24, “Residential Accessory Building.” Coppola: Anything to add, Mr. Hershey? Hershey: No, sir. Not at this time. Coppola: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Alright, Petitioner - give your name and address. Petitioner: Bradley Burns, the owner of 31226 Six Mile Road. Coppola: And who’s sitting to your left? Runkle: I’m his architect, Jack Runkle, 15661 Surrey Street in Livonia also. I’m the architect who did his original addition a few years ago and I’m -- I’m gonna give just a little bit of an overview and then Brad will fill you in on the other -- Coppola: Alright, thanks. What will be important, at least from my -- my perspective to hear is understand what the hardships are that would be in support of -- of -- a building this size. Runkle: Correct. One thing that should be noted is the house as it exists is a one-story house on a crawl space, there is no basement in the house. The house has -- is it a three or four-bedroom, Brad? Petitioner: Has four bedrooms. Runkle: It’s a four-bedroom house, it’s got a separate living and family room space and a kitchen with a small dining area off of the kitchen. When we originally did the additions a few years ago we discussed the potential of putting a basement under the addition, but City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 73 December 11, 2018 the addition was not of a large enough size really to be able to get a -- a staircase down there and still accommodate the additional bedroom that we designed onto it, so we opted at that point just due to the fact of technical difficulties to not do a basement onto the house. As a result, there’s very little storage space in the house, so the idea with adding an extra 50 feet of depth by the width of the existing garage was to help out in easing some of the storage needs of the family. The other thing that we’re looking at a potential for maybe having some kind of vehicle storage in the future so the depth of 70 feet is kind of is being looked at to accommodate that as well, maybe as one of the bays on the side. And in your packet, you may have something that shows a pitcher being getting ready to wind up, so part of the 70 foot depth was the idea that there could be a training facility for the young gentleman behind me to accommodate 60 feet six inches cause we were originally looking at something less than that, but just adding the extra few feet gives him the ability to do baseball training in the winter when there aren’t training facilities or the ability to do so outside. Essentially, the Burns have about an acre and a half and the additional 50 feet by the width of the garage adds right around two percent to the lot coverage as it exists now. They’re zoned-- are you still RUF? Petitioner: Yes. Runkle: They’re zoned RUF and the depth of the lot is right around 440 square feet and I forget how wide you are. Are you in the neighborhood of 100 feet wide, thereabouts? Petitioner: 150 -- 140 feet wide. Runkle: 140 feet wide. So, and most of the addition would be added onto the north side of the existing garage. We’re keeping the existing width and taking it back. We’d be meeting the 16 feet maximum height for the garage roof and also, in the package there’s probably some images there that I created that show what the concept for the front of the garage would look like on a bit of a face lift and that approximates the design for the master bedroom and garage fronts that are along six feet -- Six Mile Road right now, so essentially we’d be kind of doing a replication of the two wings beyond their -- do you guys have a six or an eight foot high vinyl fence? Petitioner: Six. Runkle: They’ve got a six-foot-high fence right now that goes across their driveway and most of the time, and I drive by their house every day, because I take Six Mile into work. Most of the time that fence is closed, so it would not be a massive type of facade going in on the garage and in fact it would probably be more close looking to what they’ve got on the front of the house than what they have currently. Petitioner: And to add a little bit to that -- you know -- we’ve lived in the house about six years and when the wife and I and the family were looking at this house, this house was in that -- they call it abandoned property, it was -- it was a wreck. It was abandoned City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 73 December 11, 2018 property ordinance, so we looked at it, the wife thought I was kind of crazy, we happened to by fate run into Jack, Mr. Runkle here, local architect -- you know -- he said the house has good bones, 1950’s and he’s the one that came up with that design for the front of the house and that’s when we decided to -- you know -- decided to put a large investment -- I mean -- we love it. It’s our -- you know -- it’s really, he designed our dream home in all -- in all respect, so for not having a basement, and having boys -- so we came up with a garage. Justin there behind us scaled it out and said, “Yeah dad, we can put a pitching, we can do a pitching -- a pitching station here.” So that’s where the 70 feet comes in from. Also, I have a -- currently have a grandmother that’s -- that’s currently living with my parents - she’s 93. They have a colonial home and it’s been brought to my attention, brought to us -- you know -- our being the ranch house we have an extra bedroom that she may be coming into our house with -- in the near future as well. So, with that -- one of our areas in our home, my wife is very physically fit, she has an exercise spot so we may be moving that in the garage area and providing a bedroom for granny as well. Coppola: How many residents are in the -- in the house right now? Petitioner: Four. Coppola: How many vehicles do you have? Petitioner: Three. Coming up, I have two sons that will be driving here very shortly as well. Coppola: So, you have -- there’s two drivers right now with three cars? Petitioner: Yes, yeah. Coppola: What do you currently store in the detached garage? Petitioner: Well, I have a large seven-foot-wide lawn mower, and we have two push lawn mowers that we like to use on the front yard - we like to keep the front yard very manicured. I have a large snow blower, have some fertilizer equipment and if you have an overhead view, we have a pool as well, above ground pool that we store some equipment in the garage as well. And then currently there’s some -- there’s a few ladders and things like that that are handy around -- handy around the house. Coppola: And your existing garage, 720 square feet, is a two door, three door? Petitioner: It’s a one door. Coppola: One large -- one door, two car -- Petitioner: Yeah. Coppola: -- type garage? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: Yeah -- what we -- we -- actually on the existing we actually, the one right side, we actually kind of prop -- we boxed that in -- it’s a little -- it’s a foyer room when we -- when we walk in the garage you can put your shoes and your coats up and so a little bit of that. When you’re looking at the attached garage on the right side it’s a -- kind of coat room. It’s really a one car. It -- you can fit one car in there. I guess you could fit two if you angle it the right way going in there. Coppola: A 720 square foot garage you can only fit one car? Petitioner: Well, I do have a Harley in there too. Coppola: Okay, questions? Pastor: Sure, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: The architect said you have no -- no storage in your house so you want this big -- big garage for storage, but currently you aren’t storing anything in your existing garage from your house. You said you had a lawn mower, a couple lawn mowers, miscellaneous pool stuff, so, I fail to see why you need this extremely large garage for house storage when you’re not storing anything in the house in the existing garage. Can you explain that to me? Petitioner: Well, you know if you -- I have a picture and I can pass it around -- the existing garage that’s still here, well that -- the existing garage, that’s the way the house -- the garage was when we -- when we bought the house, so we haven’t done anything to that, but that’s what we look at when we -- out of our kitchen, our kitchen window, so we want to -- we wanted to redesign the garage to match the front of the house, well it’s -- correct me if I’m wrong, I think (north) the depth of this existing garage can’t -- cause we have to change the gables on the roof -- maybe you can explain this. Runkle: Yeah, the gable of the -- the way the ridge of the garage runs, right now is at 90 degrees to the way that the ridge would need to -- to get us a little bit of extra depth. And -- and I just want to mention what you’re talking about with -- you’ve got a garage you’re not storing stuff in it. Like Brad has mentioned, they’ve got two very active young men who are involved in a lot of outdoor type of activities. The garage right now is pretty much filled up with those kinds of activities - hockey nets, etc. etc., and they are getting to the point where they’re going to be driving soon. The things of a household nature, like Christmas trees and decorations and things like that where I store in my basement in my little Ranch house a couple blocks from here, these guys just don’t have the kind of space to store those types of things, so it’s a different nature of storage. In their bedrooms they’ve got stuff crammed in there that makes use of those bedrooms for a couple of kids who are teenagers very difficult to do, so we are looking at an addition of 1500 square feet. A typical basement under a typical ranch house worth of space to go out in the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 73 December 11, 2018 backyard. And we have looked at the possibility in the past of oh what if we just built storage connected to the house, but then you run into the issue of egress windows on bedrooms, natural light coming into rooms and things of that nature. So, we’ve got a structure that we’re starting with that basically the width of the façade is already there, and we’re gonna dress up that width of the façade and then take the addition off into the backyard where most of the angles of view are not gonna be too much different in the perception of depth as to what they are right now. Pastor: So, what are you gonna store in this new garage? Petitioner: Well, one side is -- what we’re planning on doing -- you got one side -- you need about 15 feet width for a -- for a pitching -- for a pitching tunnel in a garage. Okay, the garage is about -- the garage on the outside now is 30 feet. So, you got half of that. Pitching mound is 60 feet six inches you need. You kind of need little bit to go back, and you need a little bit in front, so that will take up the one whole one side -- you know -- the other side I like to -- I got the -- like I said, the lawn equipment. That, if you spun it around that’s about what the other side will -- will accommodate -- you know -- so I got the large lot as you can see, we got the lawn equipment, my house is fully decorated with the lights, we have storage of that, I have the two push mowers, I have a big snow blower system, so, and then I’m gonna have another car coming here pretty soon as well. Pastor: Do you store your cars in doors right now? Petitioner: One of them. Pastor: Where do you store your Christmas lights and stuff right now? Petitioner: Well, we cram it in the garage as we speak right now. Pastor: Which garage? Petitioner: We put it in the front garage. Pastor: So, this is -- this whole quest is based basically for a pitching facility looks like to me. Petitioner: No, it’s -- that was as a result of the need for storage and the young gentleman saying -- you know -- if we’ve got 60 feet can we get 70 feet? Pastor: Why not 100? Petitioner: Cause you don’t need 100 feet. Pastor: Why not? You always need more. Petitioner: You need 60 feet six inches plus a little bit of room beyond and a little bit of room before. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 73 December 11, 2018 Pastor: Thank you. Excuse me, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: What kind of power do you plan on putting in this garage? Petitioner: We don’t plan on putting any additional power in there. Not as what it has is what it is. Pastor: What’s it got in it now? Petitioner: It’s got three breakers -- three circuits. Pastor: Three 20-amp breakers? Petitioner: Yeah, three 20-amp breakers. Pastor: So, how you going to light the pitching facility? Petitioner: Just with -- just with overhead lights. Pastor: You don’t run any tools or anything in there? Petitioner: I don’t run any -- do I run any tools? No, I don’t have any -- I have a small air compressor that blows up the -- small air compressor that just plugs in. Pastor: What do you do for a living? Petitioner: I work for the City of Allen Park in Melvindale, I actually sit where Mr. Hershey sits a lot of times. Pastor: Okay. Thank you. Turbiak: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: To the Petitioner and the architect. Is the new garage going to start in the front where the façade would be in about the same location as the current --? Runkle: Yes. Turbiak: -- detached? Runkle: Yes. Turbiak: Question to Mr. Hershey. What’s the clearance required for -- from the DTE electrical lines? Hershey: Typically, about six feet easement. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 73 December 11, 2018 Turbiak: Either side for a total of 12? Hershey: Yes, center out six feet each way. Turbiak: Okay. How far is the current front of the garage to the DTE lines? Petitioner: It’s about eight feet. Turbiak: I was out there earlier today, and it was not eight feet. Are you sure It’s eight feet? Petitioner: Well, I never measured it exactly, but I’m -- Turbiak: Okay, well -- just to tell you what I saw -- Petitioner: Yeah. Turbiak: -- and I -- and I do apologize. I -- I’m relatively new to the zoning board and so I don’t know all the procedures. I should have asked probably beforehand, so I -- I hope I didn’t -- Petitioner: No. Turbiak: -- you know -- do anything that I shouldn’t -- I was just trying to inspect the project here Petitioner: Yeah. Turbiak: So, I -- I walked your property this morning, Petitioner: Okay. Turbiak: -- and when I -- when I stood direct under the line I could reach out and I was like four inches from touching the -- the brick -- you know -- so like the eaves -- the eaves and all that was probably three feet, I would say. Petitioner: You mean from like from the center of the pole is what you’re saying? Turbiak: Yeah, if I’m standing directly under the lines -- Petitioner: Okay Turbiak: -- and just facing the pole and reach my -- my left hand out. Petitioner: Okay. Turbiak: So -- so, that’s one concern is that. I’m concerned that if you were to be able -- if you were granted this that you wouldn’t be able to put it exactly where you think you City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 73 December 11, 2018 can. I don’t know how the current one was able to -- you know -- fly under the radar on that one, I guess. And also, where is your seven-foot mower currently located? Petitioner: It’s in the back. Turbiak: Do you have another one that you store in this detached garage? Petitioner: What’s that? Turbiak: Do you -- do you store it sometimes in this detached garage? Petitioner: I do store it in there sometimes, yes. Turbiak: Okay. So, I take it that detached garage is too full now to store it? Petitioner: What’s that? Well there’s some -- I have some construction part that was planned on for the garage in there as well right now. Turbiak: I’m sorry? Petitioner: I have some construction materials in the garage that were planned on for the building of the garage as well. Turbiak: Oh, I see. I see. And I noticed there’s a shed back there. Did you build that or was that there when you bought the property? Petitioner: The shed? Oh, in the back corner? No, the slab was there. The story on that is the slab was there and the carpenters - they had some additional materials left so that was constructed in the -- in the back. It’s eight by eight -- eight by eight out back. Turbiak: So, you built that after -- Petitioner: Yes. Turbiak: -- you moved in? Petitioner: Yes. Turbiak: And is -- do you know what the size of the -- you said eight by eight for the shed, do you know -- it looked like there was a lean-to on there? Like a -- Petitioner: Yeah -- yeah, there’s a lean on it, yeah. Turbiak: Do you know the size of that? Petitioner: No, not off hand I don’t. No. Turbiak: Okay. You said you were gonna be cleaning out, it’s currently an exercise room it sounds like, what’s the square footage on that room? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: That would be 12 x 12. Turbiak: Okay, and how -- maybe this is to the architect -- how big would the basement have been had it been added under? I presume it was just under the -- the bedroom, right? Runkle: Right, and the bedroom that we’re talking about was at the front façade. Essentially what we did was we took a roughly a rectangular building and we put the 720- foot garage on to that and the bedroom and bathroom and master suite is probably in the neighborhood of 500 square feet. Petitioner: No, it’s more than that cause the house was originally 21 and now it’s 29, I think. Runkle: Okay. Petitioner: Yeah. Runkle: Okay, this was about five years ago that I did the project for them, so I’m trying to pull a lot of this out of my head. Turbiak: Okay, so roughly about 800 square feet. Petitioner: About 800. Turbiak: Okay. Runkle: But, what happens is if we were to have put it under there we would have had a staircase that would have been -- you know -- including walls four feet wide by probably 24 feet long, landing at the top and the bottom, so, that 800 square feet comes closer to maybe 650 - 700 square feet and wouldn’t have accommodated everything that they needed for their master bedroom and bathroom, so and some rearrangement of their -- their front entry as well was part of that addition. Turbiak: Yeah -- I mean -- I guess you could -- you could -- again, this may be personal taste and financials whether or not you think it’s justifiable to put the basement under there, but -- I mean -- I believe there’s plenty of Colonials that are -- you know -- 1600 square foot -- you know to 1800 square foot footing -- footprint with a basement, so it’s not unheard of. Runkle: Well, we -- we can’t put a basement in now. Turbiak: I understand. Runkle: And then there were some things that exemplified it, but -- you know -- the basement would not have been next to the garage, so you would have been traipsing City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 73 December 11, 2018 things into and out of through rooms that have fine rugs and things of that nature. It really wasn’t practical. Turbiak: I -- I -- I see your point. If it was a condition, would you consider converting your current attached garage to living space? Petitioner: The current attached garage to living space? Runkle: I’m gonna step in on that one. Essentially at one time this house had a garage. That garage was converted to living space. We designed and built a garage onto the house so that one wouldn’t have to drive into a detached garage with armfuls of groceries in what’s gonna become snow -- you know -- two feet deep here in a couple weeks. That was something where it was very definitely, we want to be able to pull a car into a garage and unload groceries and the garage was in close proximity to the kitchen and the laundry room, so it made a lot of sense in a convenience fashion. This is gonna be more of a long- term storage space. I don’t think we wanna get into a situation where we’re building a roof over a detached garage that’s got quite a bit of distance from the garage for somebody to be able to bring groceries in in bags in inclement weather. Turbiak: I understand. In the future, when you have an additional vehicle, how many do you plan to park in the attached garage? Petitioner: In attached garage? We’ll -- we’ll park one in the attached garage unless -- we -- currently we have larger SUV vehicles so, if there was a smaller vehicle. Turbiak: Okay. Petitioner: The wife drives an Expedition, I drive an F-150. Turbiak: Well, I’m -- one thing I’m trying to understand is you make it sound like the whole one side of the detached -- proposed detached garage will be used for the pitching tunnel, so it seems like you just have a straight line to park vehicles in. Is that correct? Petitioner: Well, no. That’s not what -- I see what you’re saying, you have to back one out and it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to do that now, but you’d only have one vehicle going in on the one side. So -- Turbiak: That -- that whole left side would basically just support one vehicle? Petitioner: Well, that and -- and the storage in the back of that, yes. Turbiak: As far as vehicles. Petitioner: Yes. Turbiak: Number of vehicles would be one, correct? So, you -- you’d probably -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: Unless you wanted to put them -- stack them in front to back, I guess. Runkle: I’m -- I’m gonna add some information to that. Like everybody in my neighborhood -- everybody’s got a two-car garage two blocks from here and what you got in the two-car garage is you got the classic car, and you’ve got all kinds of the kids’ athletic equipment and then at my house I’ve got five vehicles. There’s four drivers and I’ve got a son who’s into cars and he’s got a truck and a 1991 Mercury Grand Marquis, and the garage is my 1971 Torino and then what sits on the driveway is all the cars that we drive on a daily basis. Now, if the guy here who’s pitching has his own car he’s probably gonna store it on the side where he does his pitching and when it’s time to go in there and do pitching, you back the car out and -- it -- that 70 feet by however wide you have doesn’t have to be an empty space. It can be something where you got a 15-foot, 20-foot vehicle and then that can be removed or put back in. Turbiak: It that -- Runkle: The necessity though is to be able to shelter vehicles and not have them all sit out on the driveway when it’s snowing, when it’s hailing, etc. etc. And like everybody in the City, everybody parks one car in their two or three car garage and the rest of it’s full of tools. In Livonia it’s hockey nets, and you know the drill here. Turbiak: Sure. How many years do you think it will be used as a pitching lane? Petitioner: Well, three years of high school, four years of college. Turbiak: Okay. Runkle: And you’ve got two sons. Petitioner: Yeah, that’s the older son. Turbiak: So, the pad that the current detached garage sits on did you pour that after you moved in or that was poured before then. Petitioner: No that -- we poured that. Turbiak: Okay. And why did you pour it the size that your poured it? Petitioner: We currently have been using that for the last five years as an ice rink. If you did walk over there, I don’t know if you could -- Turbiak: I saw the hockey net, yes. Petitioner: Yes, so we pour -- we get a big tarp, flood it, and use it as an ice rink. Turbiak: Okay. And then roller hockey during the summer, I presume? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: Yeah -- yeah. And it worked well as they were smaller, and it’s getting -- as they’re getting a little bigger that space is getting a little smaller. Turbiak: Yeah -- I hear what you’re saying. Petitioner: I have one son that plays competitive hockey. Turbiak: Okay, that’s all I got, Mr. Chair. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Yeah, I’m looking at an aerial photograph or a satellite photograph and it shows your property and then your neighbor to the -- looks like to the west of you on Six Mile. Petitioner: Yes. Baringhaus: I think it’s 31285 -- 31284 Six Mile. Petitioner: Yes. Baringhaus: It seems like they have a fairly large structure towards the rear of their property. Can you describe that? Petitioner: Yes, that’s a huge structure, yes. Baringhaus: What do they use that for? Petitioner: They use it to pull in -- he’s got a few vehicles that he pulls in there and I’m assuming he’s got some -- a trailer that he pulls in there as well from what I see. Baringhaus: Trailers, cars, storage -- Petitioner: Yeah. Baringhaus: -- that type of thing. Like a large garage? Petitioner: Yeah -- yeah, he’s got a door in the front and in the back. Baringhaus: What’s the height of those doors? Petitioner: Of his doors? Baringhaus: Are they -- is it a standard garage door or is it -- Petitioner: My neighbor’s garage doors? Baringhaus: Yeah -- the one next door to you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: No, I think they’re -- you know what? I -- I don’t know. Baringhaus: Larger than a normal garage door? Petitioner: Yeah -- they’re probably larger than a normal garage door. Baringhaus: So, it’s a fairly large -- it’s a very, very large structure. Petitioner: Oh, it’s very large. If you look at the overhead view you could -- I believe on your overhead view you can see, as Mr. Turbiak said, that slab. If you’re looking -- are you looking at the one where you can see my existing -- alright existing structure and the slab? Yeah. Baringhaus: Uh huh. Petitioner: And then you can look at the neighbor’s garage next door to it. Yeah. Baringhaus: When did he build that or was it existing when you moved in? Petitioner: That was -- that was there when I moved in. I’ve lived there six years. Baringhaus: Six years. Petitioner: So, it was there when we moved in. Yeah. Baringhaus: Okay, thank you. Klisz: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: Does that neighbor have an attached garage as well? Petitioner: Yes, he does. Runkle: One more thing to add to with the understanding that how many years are the boys gonna be pitching and using that for such purposes. I’ve known Brad and his wife for a long time now and not only have I worked on their house, but I’ve worked on some other commercial projects with him in the City of Detroit and some other places and the - - his family does travel quite a bit so this garage also has the potential to store recreational type vehicles that is to say something that might accommodate a boat on a trailer or other long vehicles of that nature and not be sitting outside where they become an eyesore to people. We talk cars whenever we get together, and he may want to do what I have done. I got a 19 and a half foot long Torino Station wagon that eats up like every inch of my garage and as the boys get older and they go off to college and they’re on their way and I’m sure his mind is gonna start turning to -- you know -- collecting things of that nature whether they be recreational type vehicles or collectibles or things of that nature. So, this City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 73 December 11, 2018 isn’t something that is being viewed as yeah, we’re gonna use it for two or three years and then basically having an empty large storage building on the back piece of property that there’s no intended use for down the line. I go through a lot of these obviously as an architect and everything that I have ever come across is the legality of Zoning Boards of Appeal is that how is somebody being denied the ability of the enjoyment of their property? Brad and his wife purchased a piece of property that’s a fairly public piece of property, that is to say we’ve all driven by his house, it’s next to three large churches kind of sandwiched between them, they’ve got the dog kennels across the street, but as far as his immediate neighbors, there’s a very limited number of houses and they’re all on very large lots. I seem to recall you may have one house to the east of you and two to the west. There’s virtually nothing that the neighbors can see of his property because of the tall standing trees and cars going down Six Mile Road are zipping right past, and like I said, he’s got a large fence that cuts off you from his driveway to his backyard. And the other neighbors around there, they also have large storage areas so it’s kind of understood that people who live right there have bought large lots for the ability to enjoy kind of a wooded atmosphere and nobody much bothers each other. I know your neighbors to the east have some classic cars that they have parked out on their front lawn from time to time. So, as I understand the reason for Zoning Boards of Appeals they are to be able to go to and say I have a piece of property that I would like to be able to enjoy in a fashion that I purchased it for and because of some limiting circumstances, in his case the lack of a basement, we’d like to be able to petition the ability to enjoy private piece of property we believe is not going to adversely affect those around Brad. I know last week he asked me to get these images done quickly so he could talk to his neighbors and get some feedback to them as well and talking to Brad he’s not had any kind of commentary once they saw what we had proposed. And I also know over the years Brad keeps telling me, “Jack, my neighbors absolutely love the façade that you created on the existing house.” And what we’re trying to do with the garage façade is to bring it in to alignment with the concept that’s on the -- the façade that faces Six Mile Road. Coppola: Any questions? No? Is there anybody in the audience who would like to speak for or against this project? Regiani: I would. Coppola: Fantastic. Grab a seat for a second and I’ll call you back up. Jamison: My name is Kimberly Jamison, 31225 Six Mile Road. Moved into my house October 1, 1981. I have just about two acres across the street from his property and I am concerned for a couple reasons. First of all, I raised one child in a home that is -- his proposed outbuilding is almost three times the size of my home. That concerns me. And as you all know there’s a lot of property there. My property and all the undeveloped land in the kennels. If we could all -- you know -- build storage units we’d be happy too, which is kind of what I’m considering this to be. I don’t know my neighbor, I’ve never met him. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 73 December 11, 2018 There’s a lot of trucks and trailers that come in and out of his property. I do believe he does have a side business or maybe more that I see trailers and trucks coming in and out of the driveway, so my concern is by granting this building, that’s I think huge, is that it is conducive to store business equipment there and I don’t think the area on Six Mile, like I said I’ve been there since ‘81, is conducive for that type of traffic. I think Eight Mile is. There’s a lot of 8 and Merriman between Middlebelt and Merriman -- a lot of businesses and storage yards there and I really don’t envision that to be the look or the feel in the traffic on Six Mile Road. And I know you’ve questioned the property that’s next to him that has that building and It’s -- I’ve never complained, it doesn’t bother me, they do store business equipment there and have for years and years and years, but it hasn’t been a concern and it hasn’t caused too much of a problem. I see the truck and his equipment come in and out, but I am concerned about this. I raised a daughter; my daughter went off to college. I know they grow really fast. I don’t see longevity in his pitching area in his building. Most kids when they go to college, if they’re good sports person, the college provides areas for pitching, pitching practice, pitching coaches, etc. etc. So, I guess I’m extremely opposed to this and if it’s approved, I will probably come back along with the kennels and all the vacant property owners around us to see if we can have the same thing installed and store equipment out back. Coppola: Alright, thank you. Jamison: You’re welcome. Coppola: Anybody else? Regiani: Yes. Coppola: Please step up and give us your name and address please. Regiani: I’m Patricia Regiani, I live at 31100 Six Mile. I’m two houses east of Mr. Burns. Just a little background. My parents were the original owners of the home - my dad built it. It was farm land when he bought it. In 1949 he built the home, so I’m probably I am the oldest property owner there. I’ve been there forever so I’ve seen -- I’ve seen a lot what it was -- you know -- we grew up here in Livonia. I’m opposed to the building also and the building for the proposed indoor pitching facility is not, in my opinion, a reasonable request for a variance or a unique hardship. I had a son that played for Michigan State, he was a pitcher and a shortstop, and I didn’t build him a facility and I’m not to say that that’s really a nice thing to do. We have, myself and my daughter, also were coaches in South Lyon. These high schools have adequate pitching facilities. There’s lots of pitching facilities around. You’re outdoors most of the time so, that’s just my opinion though. Although would we -- it’s wonderful to have a facility like that in your backyard. Also, the structure proposed would be similar -- you have to excuse me. I don’t have my glasses and I’m having a little bit of difficulty reading it -- it’s similar or it’s larger in square footage than most of the existing homes around there. Like mine’s under 2000 square feet and most City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 73 December 11, 2018 of the homes are -- are -- you know -- below that. So, this is gonna be a structure that’s gonna be like a house. Also, Mr. Burns has his business listed as his residential address and I question whether the structure will be used for the intended proposal that he says. So, I’m questioning too is this a residential area or is this a commercial area? I thought it was residential. And yes, we -- we do have a lot of property, not one time when I was growing up I -- we were -- we actually had a small farm -- horses, all that stuff, big gardens, but it’s changed, and I think the -- probably the zoning laws have changed too. So, I respectfully ask that you -- that there’s no change in the variance for this parcel and I question some of the things that also Mr. Burns said about some of the questions that you asked, like I -- probably because I’ve been there and I kind of have -- I know what has gone on and what hasn’t gone on so, I have -- I have never met Mr. Burns. It is nothing personal. I -- I just want to see the properties remain the way -- you know -- the way that they’re intended or the way they are. Coppola: Okay, anything else. Regiani: No, that will be it. Coppola: Alright, thank you. Regiani: If you have any questions for me, I’d be more than happy -- Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman I do have one question. Do you have a basement on your home? Regiani: I do have a basement. Baringhaus: Okay, so, you do additional storage. Regiani: I do, and then I have an additional garage also. Baringhaus: So, you have a -- do you have an attached garage as well as a detached garage? Regiani: I do. Baringhaus: Similar to what Mr. Burns has? Regiani: I do. Baringhaus: Okay. Thank you. Coppola: Anybody else like to speak for them? Goeman: Yes. Bear with me because I am legally blind, but I can see some. My name is -- my name is Dudgar Goeman. I live at 31020 Six Mile and I am three houses east of Mr. Burns. I also object to this. The reason is because I do not believe it is for -- totally for his City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 73 December 11, 2018 son, I believe it is for his business. He has a website and it’s listed his address on Six Mile as his business. If he has a website and he has a business, he has trucks. He’s gonna have people -- and it’s the type -- it’s not the type of business like the neighbor west of him. The neighbor west of him owns a lawn chipping service. So, what he does is he has a chipper, he goes out and he chips the stumps when the trees are cut down and he pulls his chipper back into his property and he shuts the gates. He’s not having customers coming in and out, cars coming in and out as Mr. Burns has the business that that could probably happen. The bus -- the garage or pole barn that he’s proposing is not gonna be used for the young -- his young son to pitch at. It’s eventually gonna be empty and what’s he gonna put in it? Mr. Burns said that he has the detached garage - I have a detached garage on my property. I use it for storage for my lawn equipment. I think all of us have John Deere tractors that we have to put somewhere. Mr. Burns says he’s got a detached garage and that he has -- he uses it for some of his -- I’ll probably lose my voice before this is over -- uses it for some of his lawn equipment. My understanding that inside his detached garage are two anti -- antique cars that belong to the neighbor east of him, his next-door neighbor, and he is storing those two vehicles in that garage for him. So, if he removes those two vehicles, and give -- tell the neighbor to take them out, he has room for his equipment. Also, when Mr. Burns had the addition put on his home, a few neighbors and I were wondering why he also had the foundation in the backyard in the front of the detached garage he poured a huge slab and the foundation that it was -- was deep enough to put a building on, so he had intentions of requesting permission to put a building on even when he had the addition put on his house. I believe that Mr. Burns has bought the property, had the addition put on, and at the same time intended to bring his business into Livonia and use it. Yes, I believe if you look at his website, I have paperwork on it. It’s everything on this -- on his website has his residential address and phone number on it. Also, when he puts the pole barn, and he’s calling it a garage, it’s gonna be a pole barn. You don’t have a 60- or 80-foot length building -- it’s not a garage. The value of his home will go up and if the value of his home goes up, and he has a pole barn on it, he’s gonna sell it quicker than the rest of us, which I’m not concerned about that, but why can’t I not have a pole barn? Why can I not have other big storage? I don’t need it because I don’t plan on having a business, but I just think that his -- if he needs a -- any storage at all, remove the two garage -- the two cars, let his neighbor have them back and he has his storage. My home -- his home is quite a bit bigger than mine -- twice as big and I can store all of my equipment that I have and yes, I do have a basement. But, that’s it. Coppola: Okay, thank you. Runkle: I would -- I would very quickly like to address some things about -- Coppola: You’ll get an opportunity in a minute. Runkle: Sorry about that. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 73 December 11, 2018 Coppola: I just want to make sure there’s no one else. Is there anybody else in the audience that would like to speak up? One of the neighbors: Do we get a rebuttal at the end? Coppola: No, alright. The Petitioner and his architect like to speak to come up and give a final statement? I would like you to -- oh, that’s right. Sit down, I do have to apologize we’ve got a couple of -- couple correspondence we have to cover first. A neighbor in the audience: I got -- here’s one more letter that the neighbor gave to me that wasn’t feeling well this morning. Baringhaus: Letter of approval. Marion Mazur, 31301 Six Mile Road. (Letter read.) Letter of objection from Dudgar Gorman and Patricia Regiani -- you spoke earlier. Letter of approval. Dina Imhoff, 17110 Merriman. (Letter read.) Letter of approval. Terry Greck, 31284 Six Mile. (Letter read.) Letter of approval. Michael Coliton, 31193 Bobrich Street. (Letter read.) Letter of approval. Susan Anderson and Charles Maleski, 31180 Six Mile. (Letter read.) Coppola: Is that everything? Baringhaus: That’s everything. Coppola: Alright, thank you. Okay. Now you get a chance to -- to respond to some of the comments and make a final statement. I’d like to hear about the discussion regards to running the business out of -- out of the home and the storage of other individuals’ vehicles. Runkle: I wanted to address something as to the size of the garage doors on the garage and what we are limited to based upon the height of the garage and some of the other considerations of the front façade of the garage. I’ll try and do the math very quickly on this. The front façade of the existing garage, which we wish to maintain, is 30 feet. Based on current building codes you can’t have your garage doors closer than two feet to the outside of the building, because there needs to be two-foot sheer walls to keep garages from racking in windstorms or being hit by vehicles. So, immediately we’re losing two feet on either side -- boom boom -- 30 feet minus four feet is 26 feet. Then in the middle section what we have is that stone section, and we looked at different sizes for the stone, and found that esthetically it worked best to have it right about eight feet, so now we’re at 26 minus eight, we’re down to 18 feet. That leaves us two garage doors splitting 18 feet, so nine foot in width. So, these are regular residential sized garage doors. We also have a limitation in height of 16 feet. We’re trying to match the pitch of the existing roof of the existing house, which is a five in 12 pitch. We also have two foot overhangs on either side at the hip roof that goes around those wings, so what we are going to wind up with is a 30 foot -- 34 foot wide roof, based on the two foot overhangs and half of that 17 feet, with a 5:12 pitch, gives us seven feet and a few inches for the maximum amount of height of City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 73 December 11, 2018 that ridge off of the eaves. The eaves that we’re looking at are gonna match the existing house. Those are eight inches, so essentially, we have, on a maximum 16-foot-high garage roof, eight feet from grade to the underside soffits of the roof. So, the highest we’d be able to get on that for a garage door is eight feet, but the difficulty with that is then you don’t have the ability to bring the door up and around so, with a garage door of seven feet by nine feet that doesn’t really accommodate vehicles with ladders on them, and things of that nature. This garage is not being built for commercial vehicles. That’s what I have to say on that. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, then address on the plans that you have doors at 10 by eight -- eight by ten. Runkle: That was an original concept to give them a little bit of overhead on recreational vehicles, but in looking at it esthetically and with the codes in force and the zoning regulations, we opted to go with doors that were of smaller size. Pastor: Thank you. Coppola: So, do you have plans that actually show what you’re planning to build? Runkle: Right here shows doors that are maximum -- Coppola: And I -- I -- I get renditions, I’m talking about plans. Runkle: This is what we have to show. I don’t have a floor plan, but this is a 3-D model that was created in an architectural manner. Coppola: So -- so, the answer is no. You don’t have plans right now for us to -- to review? Runkle: I have my computer here with me. I can send you guys electronic files. Coppola: So, we should ignore right now the plans that you have presented in the packet? Those -- those aren’t what it’s gonna be? That’s not the plans to be built? Petitioner: I can answer a little bit about that too. You know the -- originally, we were just -- we weren’t trying to ask for any variances on any height -- you know -- just a single- story garage, so the -- the packet didn’t show the gable in the front, as you see, the plans you have didn’t show the gable on it because it wasn’t quite designed by Mr. Runkle yet. It shows the actual outline and the -- size of the garage, but the gable wasn’t showing and once you put the gable to match the house the doors are -- the eight foot doors don’t -- won’t -- won’t accommodate, we have -- gonna have to use seven foot doors, which we’re more interested in the design and the look, this is what we look out of our kitchen window, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 73 December 11, 2018 than we are the size of the doors. Besides, the doors aren’t -- don’t mean anything to me. Coppola: Okay, so talk to me about, if you could, respond to the comments by some of your neighbors regards to running -- running a business from -- Petitioner: Yeah, my -- the company they’re talking about is my wife’s company. She’s a -- she runs a company that she’s had for about 25 years now. We’ve had it since we moved in here. We’ve never had any kind of complaints from anybody. We don’t use the garage for anything with the company. Her -- the nature of her company is she deals with large industrial commercial clients. Example, she has two engineers at Ford Motor Company and they’ve been there where they’ll come to her and they’ll contract employees through her company, but their job is at Ford Motor Company and they may be there five years, seven years, eight years, she has a couple employees where they US Army Corps of Engineers that are contract employees for her, so her company -- she runs her company -- I didn’t even realize that the address was on the website. I thought she had a PO Box to tell you the truth. But, so she -- there is no traffic or public or retail through her company. She is a -- she’s actually won awards, if you look on her website, she’s got a - - an MBC award through, what’s it called, The My -- Woman Owned Minority Business Enterprise that she has. Coppola: What’s -- what’s the name of the business? Petitioner: The bus? It started off 20 years ago as Dusty Ducts, and she has a DBA of DDI now too. Coppola: Sounds more like a duct cleaning business. Petitioner: Well, that’s what it originally started out with, and it’s -- it is -- she does do large scales with that as -- as I mentioned through large facilities and Ford Motor Company and -- but, what that started with as a Federal Entity and then she spun it off and now she does -- the primary of her work in the last really 10 years is main -- she’s almost a somewhat of a staffing company where she provides a project manager and inspector for -- for a company or a large project that will be on site for multiple years. Some of her contracts employees she’s never even met. They’re just the paycheck that scrolls through her -- and then it goes through -- through her as a passer. I mean -- we have -- we’ve been in this site for six years, there is -- you can check the files and records - we have never had any type of issues with -- you know -- vehicles or trucks or anything like that and we don’t have any -- there is no -- that is not even in the works at all. Coppola: There’s a -- I’m just kind of going through the website right now and it looks like -- looks like the focus is residential to me. Petitioner: On our website? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 73 December 11, 2018 Coppola: Hu-huh. Petitioner: No, we haven’t done -- they have -- we’re doing zero residential work. Coppola: Dusty Ducts, right? Petitioner: Yeah. Coppola: Special is 10% off dryer exhaust clean. Petitioner: No, no, no. You must be in the wrong company. You might be in a whole -- are you in Dusty Ducts in Michigan? Cause there’s a few other -- Coppola: Is it a franchise? Petitioner: There’s a few other Dusty Ducts in other countries -- in other states, yes. Make sure you’re in Michigan. Coppola: Okay. Petitioner: Okay. You have to go with a ‘K’. Dusty Ducks.com I believe is her site, or it might be under DDI. Coppola: Oh, that’s interesting cause this one also is a woman owned business, so. Okay. So, you don’t have any of your equipment is -- you don’t maintain any equipment on your property? Petitioner: Zero. Coppola: Where -- where do you maintain all your -- your equipment? Petitioner: We have a large -- Neighbor: This is not true. Petitioner: -- we do have a facility in -- we do have a facility in Lincoln Park which we’ve had. Neighbor: This is not true. Turbiak: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: Can the Board ask questions at this point too? Coppola: Sure. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 73 December 11, 2018 Turbiak: To the Petitioner. Looking at Google Maps, it looks like there’s a -- trailer I would say near your detached garage. Do you have a trailer? Petitioner: I have -- do we have a trailer? Yeah, we have a trailer. Yeah. Turbiak: Can you describe it and what’s it for? Petitioner: Do -- do I have -- we have a black trailer -- she has a black trailer, yes. Turbiak: What is the size. What’s it used for? Petitioner: Six -- we have a -- we have a storage trailer that’s 16 by seven feet. Yeah. Turbiak: What do you use it for? Petitioner: We store things in there -- you know -- has a drop-down ramp that -- you know -- Turbiak: So, you use it for personal or business? Petitioner: We use it for both generally. Turbiak: Okay. Is that the only trailer you have? Petitioner: Yes. Turbiak: Thank you Mr. Chair. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: The Chair asked you a comment about the two vehicles that your neighbors are claiming you renting out or loaning out space in your garage. Can you tell me about that please? Petitioner: Yeah, there are no vehicles in that garage. As a matter of fact, if you look at the existing garage it just has a single door in there -- single door there -- okay, and the depth from here to inside is 20 feet, but once you take the brick in there -- I don’t know how you’d be able to get two cars through that small door and in -- inside there -- you know. So, there are no -- there are no vehicles. Coppola: How about in the attached garage? Petitioner: Just our personal vehicle, yeah. Coppola: Okay. Anything else that you wanted to close with in your final statement? Petitioner: Oh, no. I don’t think so. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 73 December 11, 2018 Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman I have one letter that was handed to me. Coppola: Okay. Baringhaus: Just to read it in record. Coppola: Okay, so I’ll give you an opportunity to respond to that if you like. Baringhaus: Letter of Objection. Dudgar Goeman, 31020 Six Mile Road. (Letter read.) Coppola: Is there anything you’d like to say in response. Petitioner: No. Coppola: Let me ask one more -- what do you do for a living? Petitioner: I work for City of Allen Park in Melvindale. Coppola: So, you work for the City, okay. Petitioner: Yeah. Coppola: Go ahead. Okay, thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: On one of these pictures I saw a big -- a very large spool of rope. What do you use that for? Petitioner: That was -- that was given to me and I was taking that -- going to take that up to my parents. They have a home up by the water - just for landscaping. That’s all. That’s all that was for. Pastor: Thank you. Petitioner: You’re welcome. Coppola: Anything else? Okay, I’m gonna close the public portion of this case and start with the Board’s comments with Ms. Centers. Centers: The -- the hardship that I can determine from this case is that of storage and it looks like you already have a detached garage. Perhaps additional space is needed on the attached garage, however, the proposed plan is more than double the existing detached garage and that would also include the space for the pitching mound, which I am not comfortable lumping in with the hardship argument because it’s -- it’s not a hardship and it’s -- if it is, it’s a temporary one that will certainly go away in the short term. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 56 of 73 December 11, 2018 So, as presented, hardship wise with the size that is presented and proposed for storage, I would not be in support. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yeah, I have another question for the Petitioner. What’s in your eight by eight shed that you have in the back of the property? Petitioner: A few -- we usually keep -- that’s where I keep the gas cans and things like that for the lawn mower, so I don’t have to keep them up with the other. Pastor: Just for -- couple gallons of gasoline, that’s it? Petitioner: Well there’s some fertilizer, some fuel, and that’s about it. Pastor: What’s in the lean-to? Petitioner: Pardon me? Pastor: What’s under the lean-to? Petitioner: What’s under the? Pastor: You -- you said you had a lean-to attached. What’s under that? Petitioner: I have a lawn mower under there -- an additional lawn mower. Pastor: I am not in support of this. I am very rarely in support of large garages. This is one of the biggest ones I think we’ve ever had come in front of us. I wasn’t at the last case, so I don’t know about that one. But this is probably the biggest garage I have seen -- this is -- this is even bigger than my house! There’s no way I could approve anything anywhere near this size. I find the argument that I need more storage space a little bit disingenuous cause he’s not storing any -- anything from the house in this garage as -- as is. So, he’s only storing his house stuff somewhere, we just don’t know where because we weren’t told. So, to say I need more storage and I need -- I need 2100 more square feet of storage is just disingenuous to me and I would never approve this. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: I agree with Ms. Centers. I think having a 3100 square foot home and no basement is definitely a hardship in terms of storage. I’ve actually watched -- I live in the area and I’ve watched you work on your property and transform it into the look that it has today, and you’ve done an admirable job -- admirable job on that and really improved the area itself. I think that the proposed -- you know -- extension of 1500 square feet is excessive. I do see a need that you may want to take that existing detached garage and streamline it into the design of the home. Doing that though I’d like to see a more scaled back plan. I think Mr. Coppola is right. We don’t have an accurate rendition or plan of City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 57 of 73 December 11, 2018 what this garage looks like today. So, I would be in favor of tabling this. Having you come back with a reduced plan that’s accurate to how you want to build this structure so that we can review it and make a decision. Coppola: Ms. Fraske. Fraske: I am in agreement with that as well. I would prefer a slightly smaller version. I think it’s a large -- a large garage to be added, but I can sympathize with your issue that you need to get more space, you have no garage -- or you have no basement. So, I would prefer a different plan if we could table that. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I agree. I think Ms. Centers kind of came up with the wording that I would have used. The reasoning behind it. You can’t have future hardships is one thing that I would mention. Like we might get an RV, or we might have more cars. That’s -- that’s something in the future, that’s not the present. We also have the neighbors objecting and that’s a big deal to me as well. The next-door neighbor does have a bigger garage in the back, and so that gives me some pause, but everyone’s situation is different. They may have a hardship. I don’t know when that property building was built and whatnot, but as proposed it’s according to our note from the City, would be 300% over the allowable size, which is just humongous and as we’ve told other petitioners, come back with a plan showing exactly where everything is gonna go and -- and using nothing bigger than what you actually need currently is -- is kind of the rule of thumb that we would see. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: Yeah, I would agree with a lot of my fellow Board Members. I think tabling is probably the best action at this time. I’d like to see a plan of what it’s actually gonna look like. I also think that the size needs to be reduced. I think the total garage area between the attached and detached I could see myself approving somewhere in the neighborhood around 1400 to 1500 square feet and basically the additional hardship that I see in the current situation is maybe that -- and -- and again this is -- it’s a maybe, so that the room -- exercise room would be -- need to be relocated so, that’s like 144 square feet. If you add that to the -- the current 600 square feet that -- that’s kind of how I arrived there. But, doesn’t mean that it’s exactly vote if it comes back before us, but I can’t support it as it’s -- it’s presented today. Coppola: First of all, again I appreciate the investment you put into the property -- I mean -- it looks much better than it was when it was abandoned. Really appreciate that especially being on Six Mile a lot of people that aren’t living in Livonia drive by that, so now they get to see something that looks nice instead of something that was -- that was abandoned -- an eye sore. I do believe you’ve demonstrated a hardship to an extent. You have no basement and you have a large lot, so that takes -- a large lot takes large City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 58 of 73 December 11, 2018 equipment that has to be stored, but you also have already a pretty large attached garage and a decent size detached garage, so maybe you need a little bit more. I don’t know what the right number is, but in my heart, I know that what you’re asking for is - is not the right number. So, I would not be in support of it as -- as it is presented. I’d also like to see the plans -- the final plans of what it’s gonna be so we know exactly what we’re approving, and we can then hold you to -- to building what’s been approved. So, I’ll -- I’ll support a tabling motion to give the Petitioner a chance to come back, modify the plan, more appropriate level and with a full set of plans so we know what we’re approving. So, I’ll go ahead and open the floor for a motion. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Upon motion by Baringhaus and supported by Klisz, it was: APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-12-52: Bradley Burns, 31226 Six Mile, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to construct a detached garage addition while maintaining an attached garage, resulting in excess number of garages and garage area. Garage Area: Number of Garages: Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Allowed: One Proposed: 2820 sq. ft. Proposed/Existing: Two Excess: 2100 sq. ft. Excess: One (720 sq. ft. Existing Attached Garage, 600 sq. ft. Existing Detached Garage and Detached Garage Addition of 1500 sq. ft.) The property is located on the north side of Six Mile (31226), between Merriman and Cross Winds, Lot. No. 043-99-0012-001, RUF-C Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 2.10(5), “Definition of Miscellaneous Terms; Garage, Private,” and Section 18.24, “Residential Accessory Building,” be tabled to give the Petitioner time to modify their existing plan, to reduce the size of the structure and to provide final plans to the Board for their review and give them time to also come up with a plan that would allow the structure to be streamlined into the design of the current home ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Baringhaus, Klisz, Turbiak, Fraske, Centers, Pastor, Coppola NAYS: None ABSENT: None Coppola: So, the petition is tabled. What we’ve asked you to do is -- is to reconsider the size, the magnitude of your project, come back to us - you’ve heard some suggestions -- come back to us also with a full set of plans. The next meeting is the ndndth 22. You’d need to have everything to us by -- 22 of January -- by the 26 of this month, so probably not doable from your perspective. Next case after -- next date after City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 59 of 73 December 11, 2018 thth that’s the 12 of February or the 26 of February. If they’re worried, there’s no cases there right now, so those both are open dates. Petitioner: Is that enough time for you, Jeff? Hunkle: Yes. Petitioner: Okay. Coppola: Alright. Petitioner: Okay. Coppola: Thank you. Petitioner: Thank you. Coppola: You can call the next case please. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 60 of 73 December 11, 2018 APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-12-53: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Robert Schmidt, 16734 Stanmoor, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct an addition onto the front of an existing dwelling, resulting in deficient front yard setback. Front Yard Setback: Required: 50 ft. Proposed: 44 ft. Deficient: 6 ft. The property is located on the east side of Stanmoor (16734), between Whitcomb and Harrison, Lot. No. 049-01-0077-000, RUF-B Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 5.05, “Front Yard.” Coppola: Mr. Hershey, anything to add? Hershey: No sir, not at this time. Coppola: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Seeing none, can you give me your name and address first please? Petitioner: Hello, my name is Robert Schmidt, I live at 16734 North Stanmoor in Livonia, Michigan. Coppola: Okay, thank you Mr. Schmidt. It appears you were before the Board in 1996. You had a request -- a similar request, I wouldn’t say it’s the same, it looks like it’s scaled back at least for the setback deficiency. So, why don’t you kind of tell us first of all what you’re planning to do, why you’re doing it, what’s the hardship and then how’s that different than what was denied back in 1996? Petitioner: Very well. I purchased a 1948 constructed two-bedroom ranch in 1993. And the first addition that went on was to turn this into a three-bedroom ranch. My ability to imagine how to add an addition at that time, back in 1998, had me drawing up a plan going out the front. One of my neighbors who moved out the following year was an objector, and a different proposal was put in and possibly a better plan that went out the side and not the back to provide a third bedroom to this ranch. At that point I had no children, it was just myself and my wife and now I have two teenagers and my wife would like another room on the house for the purpose of -- we’re gonna call it a den -- just an extra bit of living space. We don’t -- we like the neighborhood, we like our big rolling backyard, we like its rural urban farm, a nice deer population rolling through there, periodic coyotes, foxes, woodchucks. We’d like to stay for a couple more decades without having to move, so it comes down now to a choice. We’d like an extra room so, based on our lot line and based on the property we’re stuck with where do we go? What are the choices? North and south setbacks are impossible cause there’s just not enough room. To the rear of the house the issue -- the primary issue is the location of the DTE energy power lines. The power lines are exactly 20 -- I just paced it off today it’s 20 feet off the back of my City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 61 of 73 December 11, 2018 second addition is the centerline of the power lines. And today I heard the first time in one of the early sessions what the regulation is for the distance from the power lines. If I -- if I were to go to the back based on the floorplan of the house, I -- I don’t have a good flow into a potential living space. So, then my next choice was to the front, where I have an existing hallway to a front entrance that I would extend as -- and change my front entrance from facing Stanmoor to facing my driveway - 90-degree rotation to create a new entrance hall, which would then also add to this addition. So, the previous one, yeah, I believe I was asking for an eight-foot variance, way back in the day. I was also planning a bathroom out the front. This -- this particular addition is indeed scaled back the purpose is no plumbing, no basement, a split air heating system for this room so that it does not have to tie into the duct work or the existing furnace -a well-insulated room, because it would be mostly electric heat. And the other change is the -- the proposal that I put together in 98 I kind of -- the north most wall was extended straight out and this one is stepped in. I’m trying to avoid blocking off any of the existing windows and having the addition be in between the existing windows so to not affect internal light or living space. With the stepped in one of the -- one of the points of discussion in 1998 was line of sight for my neighbors, so by stepping the property in and not taking the forward addition quite as far I’m hoping to mitigate any potential loss of view that the neighbors to the north or the south might have. I’ve also, being a bit more mature than I was in 98, I did a much better job of discussing my plans with my neighbors than I did then. I -- I’ve was able to personally talk with two neighbors to the north, one neighbor to the south, the neighbor across the street to let them know what my proposal was and even went out into the front yard, we measured it out and drew stuff to rake into the ground so they could view what the corners would be and how they would affect the view. I don’t believe you received much correspondence on this one. Most of my neighbors have right now the current neighbors - none of them seem to have an issue. All of them are kind of baited with curiosity because they’re all kind of would like a little extra floor plate -- floor space and don’t know where to go on their houses. So, they’re all curious of what this proceeding is able to determine. Coppola: Any questions? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Did you look at the cost of relocating those power lines in the back? Petitioner: I’m allowed to do that? Baringhaus: I don’t know. Pastor: Sure, you are. Klisz: You can ask. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 62 of 73 December 11, 2018 Pastor: Sure can. Coppola: For the right kind of money you can do anything. Pastor: You can but it’s very expensive. Petitioner: No, no sir. I -- I -- I -- I -- I can barely get DTE to pay attention to the fact that my trees are touching the power lines down the property line right now. It -- it would be - - and it wouldn’t involve just DTE, cause right now WOW, Spectrum and AT&T are all running lines down those poles. So, it’s four companies. Baringhaus: I didn’t say it was gonna be easy. Petitioner: No, sir. Baringhaus: Did you look at any other alternatives for putting this addition in the rear of the house? Petitioner: Well, seeing where I am at my stage of life and that I’d really love to stay there for a couple more decades. That would put me into my mid 70’s and that’s kind of reasonable. I’m hoping I can take care of that yard right up into my mid 70’s. Baringhaus: Well, the reason I’m asking -- Petitioner: I don’t wish to go -- I don’t wish -- I -- I -- I -- I don’t know that going up would be so useful for us. Baringhaus: Well, not so much up, but -- I mean -- I notice like in the -- more in the back of the property again, because I notice part of the house does go -- Petitioner: It -- it gets into -- it gets into the -- Baringhaus: -- into the back of the property and it seems like you have the space in there to do that. Petitioner: That is -- that is absolutely correct sir, but it’s the flow of the internal floorplan of the house then my pathetically small kitchen becomes the hallway. Baringhaus: Gotcha. Petitioner: Through to all the living spaces. Baringhaus: So, it impacts the interior layout of the -- Petitioner: It -- it -- it is a -- it is a usability issue. Yes, sir. Baringhaus: Have you consulted an architect, have you just sketched this out yourself? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 63 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: Well, this -- okay, I’m a mechanical engineer and I’m old enough to have been a draftsman. Baringhaus: Okay. Petitioner: So, the plans -- the plans that I laid out -- the geometry is -- is -- is me. I have consulted with a builder to get preliminary costing of what this project would be, but I wished to understand the possibility of a variance before getting to the architect and going through with the final building plans to submit them for permits if that is acceptable. Baringhaus: No, I understand. Okay. Thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I’ll pursue a little more as Mr. Baringhaus questions were. I’ll use your words, your pathetically small kitchen -- if you -- if you went off the back of that kitchen you could do two things - you could put another room back there and you could enlarge your kitchen and you would have great flow. Why wouldn’t you consider that? You have a door wall existing in your foyer or whatever you want -- not foyer but your -- Petitioner: So, if -- if, okay, so, one of those is once you’re into the kitchen area -- it’s an element of cost that I wasn’t looking to attack to get that. Yes, it would it be a brand-new kitchen, yes, we could go out back we’d still then be limited by the location of the DTE power lines. Pastor: You’re limited -- you’re not limited really. You already have an addition that’s 16 feet approved in the back of your house. Petitioner: Yes sir. Pastor: You said you had another 20 feet beyond that -- Petitioner: To the center of the line. Pastor: If you stay -- if you stay 10 more feet -- if you only add 10 more feet you have a 30-foot addition and you’re still 10 feet away from those power lines. That’s going out 30 feet from your house. Petitioner: I -- I --I cannot disagree with your interpretation of the geometry. No sir. Pastor: And you’re only asking -- you’re only -- on this one on your plan you’re only going out 16 feet which is the same as the -- your master bedroom. I assume that’s your master bedroom. So, you actually would just be squaring off the back of your house. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 64 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: Yes, and also blocking off -- then I’d have to relocate the dining room, relocate the kitchen -- cause I kind of like the view off the dining room, but that’s -- Baringhaus: It becomes the view off the addition. Petitioner: It becomes the view off the addition and then that then gets into the roofline of that addition where that roof would have to be redone as well. What -- so it-- it takes the small addition I was -- I was hoping for and it -- it does make it big and grand. Now, the concession that I was hoping to -- and the fact that I’d be disrupting the front of the house. I -- looking to redo the siding across the entire front of the house. If anybody takes a look at the street view, you’ll see the front of my house is really boring. It’s a -- the siding was ins -- same siding that was there when I purchased the house in 93 and by putting the addition this would also be an opportunity to make the front of the house more attractive. It is a cinder block structure from 1948 that is the core of the structure. The siding is not vinyl, it’s not aluminum, it’s steel. Magnets stick to it. Now why a previous owner chose to put steel siding across their entire house -- wrap their cinder block house in siding -- in steel I don’t know. So is it the amount of variance out the front that is of the greatest objection or is it the just that there are other oppor -- other potential opportunities? Pastor: In my -- my opinion? Normally we do this towards the end, but my opinion it’s the variance off the front. It’s not the amount of variance, it’s the variance, cause you -- you’re getting close to the street and I don’t really -- I can’t really tell that any of your neighbors are that close. Petitioner: Right across the street the previous owners -- Pastor: Maybe a garage might be as close, but it’s not living area. Petitioner: It’s -- it’s -- it’s well -- it’s very well past six feet from the 50-foot setback. Pastor: I’m not sure how they built that, but that was not to code. Petitioner: That was done only five years ago. I -- and I don’t know either. Pastor: I really don’t know how they built that because I was on the Board five years ago and I do not remember that. Petitioner: Sir, I -- I -- I don’t know how that happened. Though -- that particular -- I have new neighbors there, they have only been there three years. That addition was put in about five -- four or five years ago. There was plumbing problems in that house across the street and the builders of that addition got out right away. The new owners were stiffed with collapsing sanitary lines under their poured concrete floor through their living room. And they had to evacuate with two small twins and a pregnant wife and live in a hotel for City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 65 of 73 December 11, 2018 three months while insurance took care of everything, but that’s beside the point. The precedent for that area was set with that structure across the street. Pastor: I’m not gonna call that a precedent. Petitioner: Okay. Pastor: Cause if it was you wouldn’t need to be here. Petitioner: Well, I’m trying to follow the rules, sir. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Yeah, I guess to follow up on Mr. Pastor’s comments, I think he made some great points, but seems like in the back of your house you have a concrete pavement area and enclosed porch area? To me that would be a likely candidate for the site of this room if you take the addition in the front and move it to the back, you could probably still have a den combination small formal dining area, which is pretty common with a lot of designs on houses today, rather than just having it -- you mentioned you like the view of your dining room through the window, I think you could still get that by relocating it to the area just sort of adjacent to what looks like a bedroom, but just falling short of your kitchen, so you could still get the view of your yard out of the kitchen and then the new proposed addition -- you could still pick up additional views that way from that room as well. That’s why I’m sort of recommending to you to move it to the back of the house. Petitioner: Well the flow -- the flow -- Baringhaus: I think you’d -- I think you’d lose some curb appeal too, because you lose sight of your front door and that’s -- that’s a real focal point on a home. And you’re gonna move it so they don’t see it from the street. Petitioner: 90 -- 90 degrees it would be viewable from one direction, and absolutely viewable from the driveway. Baringhaus: Thank you. Turbiak: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: To the petitioner. What is this room that’s between the garage and the kitchen? On the back of the house? Petitioner: Right now, that is a mud room. It is a hallway connecting at some point in antiquity an area was put in and it is a mud room -- the purpose of it is a mud room. Spare City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 66 of 73 December 11, 2018 kitchen cabinets have been installed there. We have storage there, so there is a hallway connecting the garage to the original structure subdivided with a storage area, which is rather convenient. A place to dump coats and boots and stuff. Turbiak: Have you considered building kind of off the back of that mud room? And maybe behind the garage? Or -- Petitioner: Once again that would take the -- the -- it is absolutely poss -- geometrically it is absolutely possible from the flow of the house it turns that small kitchen into a -- a main travel artery. So, so to get to this back from the front door, you’re -- you’re traipsing through the kitchen. I -- I -- I cannot disagree with how many possibilities there are for this particular lot. The proposal I ventured forth today I racked my brain to come up with the simplest structure I could with the least amount of disruption to the living space so we could live in it while the construction was going on. That was -- that was kind of my goal. Turbiak: So, your concern with that area is -- is that this would be -- become a more traffic area, right? Petitioner: Yes sir. Turbiak: But the proposed use is a den, right? So, it’s not going to be a high -- I don’t know -- it’s not like a kitchen or a bathroom or something that is gonna be used often. Petitioner: That’s -- that is -- Turbiak: And it seems like it would -- you know -- offer some great views of your backyard without infringing on any of your current views. Petitioner: I understand. Turbiak: Okay. And then so, the one question I have, because I haven’t looked at it in this regard, you mentioned about having to change the roof line -- you know -- if we were to put it back here. What does your current proposal do? What does it require changes to the roof? Petitioner: Alright, so right now this structure is a full hip roof around the entire perimeter with an 18-inch overhang. The -- there is -- the front of the house is not flat -- it is a step. There is a -- approximately just -- just to the north of the front entrance is a bump out that is about 18 inches bumped out. That causes a gable in the roofline and I wanted to take advantage of that existing gable so that, once again, not excessive material wasn’t necessary for bumping out the roof and that I would be able to tie into the existing valley on the south side. Turbiak: Okay. It seems like just at a cursory look from the top -- you know -- building off the back of the garage you’d have a similar use of the same roof line. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 67 of 73 December 11, 2018 Petitioner: It’s then back -- it’s still -- I cannot disagree with that statement sir. Turbiak: It goes back to your flow through the kitchen concern. Petitioner: Yes sir. Turbiak: You said you have some teenagers. How old are they -- and have you considered --? Petitioner: 16 and -- 16 and 19. Turbiak: -- have you considered converting one of their bedrooms to the den? Petitioner: They -- brother and sister. We have a three-bedroom house right now. That would be strategically bad. Turbiak: Well, I mean once one of them moved out. Petitioner: I don’t think they’re ever moving out. Turbiak: Oh, well maybe you can give them some incentive. Baringhaus: There’s your hardship. Turbiak: I meant in the future. You -- because you mentioned you want to live there a couple decades and -- and -- and-- Petitioner: I -- I have a -- I have a feeling one’s gonna go and one’s gonna stay. Turbiak: All it takes is one. So, do you currently have a basement? Petitioner: There is a basement under the current structure. It is -- it is well utilized. It is - - it does not go under the 1998 addition, it does not go under the attachment to the garage. It is -- it is not immune to ground water issues even though I have a big hill down to the flood plain in my backyard. At some point in antiquity somebody poured a second basement -- my basement floor is eight inches thick. The bottom of my -- my last basement stair is four inches high. Somebody thought getting -- pouring another four inches of concrete was going to get the basement floor above the water table as the water from that whole area is trying to push back past my basement to get down to the creek. Very strange occurrence and I was very, very surprised the first time we had water issues and -- you know -- jack hammering and discovered four inches of concrete came up and lo and behold there’s another layer of green vinyl tile and another layer of concrete. Old house problems. Turbiak: Thank you, Mr. Chair. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 68 of 73 December 11, 2018 Coppola: Any other questions? Okay, seems like there isn’t. Is there anybody in the audience that would like to speak up? There’s not! Do you have any correspondence? Baringhaus: Yes, we do. Letter of objection. Renell Taylor, 16759 Rougeway, Livonia, MI. (Letter read.) Letter from Debbie Kovelle. 16760 Rougeway St. (Letter read.) Letter of approval. Lori Sekda, 16710 N. Stanmoor Dr. (Letter read.) Petitioner: That is my neighbor to the south. And I didn’t know my neighbors on Rougeway were within 300 feet. Coppola: Is there anything you’d like to say in final closing? Petitioner: I -- did consider -- the -- the geometrical proposal -- geometry proposals that the Board has laid out have been bandied about in the past and the reason that I am requesting the variance is I was looking -- we were looking for the space and we were looking for the simplest to add structure to the -- to the site and with the best flow into our living space. If the -- currently I could -- I could legally put, go out ten feet from the front of my house without requesting a variance, however, by the time we put the interior walls in there I’m left with a -- a room that’s nine feet wide, which would not be adequate. The request right now is for 16 -- to go out 16 feet, which would be a six-foot variance, however, a 14-foot extension would also be acceptable and that would reduce the variance to four foot. If that is -- if that two foot is a make or break on the negotiations here, I’m -- I’m willing to have that chat. Coppola: Okay. Petitioner: Thank you so very much. Coppola: Thank you. I’m gonna close the public portion of the case and start the Boards discussion with Ms. Fraske. Fraske: Well, I would be in support if the addition is in the back of the home. I don’t feel comfortable with it being in the front. I do see that there is a need, but I would only be in support if it’s in the back. So, I think if you could come back and bring us something that shows a different -- Petitioner: Well, if I go in the back -- Fraske: -- design -- than I would be okay with that. Petitioner: -- then I could go right to the Planning Committee or is that the Building Department -- there’s no variance. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 69 of 73 December 11, 2018 Klisz: I think that the proposal is very thoughtful, he scaled it back from the original one back in 1998, and he’s just suggested now that he could do with two less feet, which makes the variance two feet less. The one objection is from the neighbor behind him, so she wouldn’t see the front of his house anyhow, so I kind of neutralize that. Again, I think there are lots of proposals, but this is the one he wants, it makes the most amount of sense to him and the variance is just not that big on a fairly large lot, so I would be in support of the 14-foot modified plan. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: Overall, I’m not in support of the proposed nor the 14-foot amendment. I -- I think that this should go in the back and one suggestion that I have, since it sounds like you have several other neighbors who are interested, cause I’d -- I’d hate to see this -- you know -- be to several hours and -- and I just don’t think it belongs that close to the road in general. But, if there’s an expense to moving the line, if that would somehow -- I mean there’s obviously other areas where you could put it as we discussed without moving that DTE line, but if for some reason you wanted to put it in an area that -- that would infringe on that maybe you and your neighbors would want to chip in -- you know - - cover that cost to move the lines and spread it out to reduce the impact to you personally. So, like I said, I wouldn’t support this variance. Coppola: Ms. Centers. Centers: Looking at the plans and thinking myself if I was to purchase this home, I would prefer to purchase a home with the addition in the back. I think the flow would be better and of course you wouldn’t need a variance, so that would also be helpful. So, I -- I think that, while I would prefer it in the back, if you truly believe it belongs in the front, I could go with the 14-foot compromise because a deficiency of four feet I would not deem excessive. Coppola: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, I appreciate the thought and all the time and effort that he’s put into this, but he’s got a large lot. He’s got plenty of room in back, he doesn’t have to come in front of us if he goes in back. He can do all kinds of wonderful things to this house without disturbing the front of the house. On a lot -- lot this large I -- I fail to see the reason coming forward. I have a fairly large lot myself and when I built my house, I built it further back than most of my neighbors because I wanted a bigger front yard. You’re proposing a smaller front yard. I don’t see how that -- that would benefit the community, so I would not be in support of any setback. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Your neighborhood, driving through it, it has a very consistent front yard setbacks -- I mean -- it’s very uniform -- amazingly uniform. And I think the addition of City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 70 of 73 December 11, 2018 what you’re proposing would be a disruption to sort of the aesthetics of the neighborhood. I agree -- I mean -- your lot goes back 314 feet and I think with a little creativity you could find another 14 or 16 feet to put that proposed addition onto the back of your home and Ms. Centers brings up a very good point. I think it would be much more marketable by doing that as well. So, my recommendation would be to table this variance at this time to give you some -- some time to come up with an alternative that would place the addition on the rear of the home. Turns out you may not even need a variance to do that and you could just do that on your own. Coppola: Yeah, I’m not gonna -- I’m not gonna be in support of this. Like the Vice Chair Pastor said, I think you spent a lot of time and effort putting this together, but I think your main -- the main focus of your effort was to reduce cost and that is not a consideration that this Board -- Board can take. Financial considerations are not a -- not a -- not an aspect that we can consider. I -- I actually do believe, and I know that you’ve -- let me state that you don’t believe, but I do believe there is actually a better option going out the back -- that there’s a better option off the back, but unless -- I think the neighborhood all sits relatively the same distance -- I think it would be disruptive to the neighborhood to do that and I think Mr. Turbiak a good -- good comment in that we open pandora’s box and everybody’s gonna want a -- want a variance in the front of their house and the next thing you know everybody’s 16 feet closer to the street, so while I empathize with you needing more space and the hardship that you have, I think there are better options that don’t require a variance. So, I’ll go ahead and open up the floor for a motion. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Upon motion by Baringhaus and supported by Turbiak, it was: APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-12-53: Robert Schmidt, 16734 Stanmoor, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct an addition onto the front of an existing dwelling, resulting in deficient front yard setback. Front Yard Setback: Required: 50 ft. Proposed: 44 ft. Deficient: 6 ft. The property is located on the east side of Stanmoor (16734), between Whitcomb and Harrison, Lot. No. 049-01-0077-000, RUF-B Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 5.05, “Front Yard,” be tabled to give the Petitioner time to come up with an alternative plan that would place the proposed addition at the rear of the home. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 71 of 73 December 11, 2018 ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Baringhaus, Turbiak, Fraske, Centers NAYS: Klisz, Pastor, Coppola ABSENT: None Pastor: If it’s at the rear of the home he doesn’t need a -- need to come in front of us. Baringhaus: Should I make a denying motion? My motion is to table it. Turbiak: Support. Coppola: I have a motion by Mr. Baringhaus, supported by Mr. Turbiak to table. Take roll please. Alright, your petition has been tabled to give you an opportunity to come up with an alternative plan. Obviously if you design something that goes to the back of the house, you don’t need to come before us. Petitioner: That is correct. Coppola: So, I’ll leave that up to you how you decide you’d like to proceed, but it’s tabled. Petitioner: Thank you. Thank you all for looking thoughtfully at what the proposal was. Coppola: Thanks for your efforts. Good luck. We have two matters before we close out. th We’ve got minutes for the 13 of November. So, I need a -- Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Motion to approve the meeting minutes from our November 13, 2018 meeting. Pastor: Support Coppola: Motion by Mr. Baringhaus, support by Mr. Pastor to approve the minutes from th November 13 of this year. All in favor? Board: Aye. Coppola: Any opposed? We also have the official 2019 meeting schedule, which has been very carefully went over and I think we’ve got something that works for us - just note thth that we’ve got a January 8 training seminar and then November 26 of next year is a tentative date. If there’s -- we’ll try to push cases around it so we can avoid it, but if we can’t we will have a -- we’ll have one. So, I need a motion to approve this or not to approve this. Pastor: I make a motion to approve. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 72 of 73 December 11, 2018 Coppola: I have a motion by Mr. Pastor -- Fisher: I thought we approved it last time. Coppola: No, I don’t think we did. Pastor: No, we didn’t. Coppola: No, we tabled it, I think. Pastor: Because there were some dates that they wanted to move around. Fisher: Okay, sorry. Klisz: Support. Coppola: If not, it’s gonna be very well approved. Board: All laugh. Coppola: I have a motion by Mr. Pastor, I’ve got support by Mr. Klisz. All in favor? Board: Aye. Coppola: Any oppose? Pastor: Make a motion to adjourn. Klisz: Support. Coppola: I have a motion by Mr. Pastor, support by Mr. Klisz to adjourn. All in favor? Board: Aye. Coppola: Meeting adjourned. There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned at 10:09 p.m. _______________________________ Gregory Coppola, Chairman ______________________________ Jim Baringhaus, Secretary /mm City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 73 of 73 December 11, 2018