Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MINUTES 2020-03-03 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING HELD MARCH 3, 2020 A Regular Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Auditorium of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, March 3, 2020. MEMBERS PRESENT: Gregory Coppola, Chairman James M. Baringhaus, Vice Chairman Timothy J. Klisz, Secretary Christopher N. Boloven Janice N. Centers Joel Turbiak MEMBERS ABSENT: Lisa Fraske OTHERS PRESENT: Leo Neville, Assistant City Attorney Bob Stroble, City Inspector Jim Albus, City Inspector Marilyn Mootsey, Recorder The meeting was called to order at seven p.m. Chairman Coppola explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Six (6) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 3 people present in the audience. (7:03) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 35 March 3, 2020 TABLE OF CONTENTS Appeal Case # Pages 2020-03-05 3 - 19 (Adriana Liberatore - Farmington Drugs and Medical Supplies) 2020-03-06 20 - 33 (Rares Tunea and Luminita Popa) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 35 March 3, 2020 APPEAL CASE NO. 2020-03-05: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Adriana Liberatore, 22462 Statler, St. Clair Shores, MI 48081, on behalf of Lessee Farmington Drugs & Medical Supplies, 20434 Farmington, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a wall sign, resulting in excess wall sign area. Wall Sign Area: Allowed: 50 sq. ft. Proposed: 77 sq. ft. Excess: 27 sq. ft. The property is located on the east side of Farmington (20434), between Norfolk and Eight Mile, Lot. No. 010-01-0009-002, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H(b),2, “Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts.” Coppola: Alright, thank you. Mr. Stroble and Mr. Albus, anything to add? Stroble: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Klisz: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Yes. Klisz: Question. The current wall sign - do you know the size of that? I didn’t catch it from the packet. Stroble: I do not, but if you give me a second, I can look it up and see if there’s anything. Klisz: That would be great. Stroble: Yep. Klisz: Thank you. That’s all I have. Stroble: 48 square feet. Klisz: Thanks. Coppola: Alright, if the Petitioner would like to step forward, please. If you’d first give me your name and address. Liberatore: My name is Adriana Liberatore, I’m here as the owner of the building, but I let the tenant speak for the merits and stuff since he’s familiar with it. Coppola: Okay, if you could step forward please. Give us your name and address. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 35 March 3, 2020 Nabolsi: Hello, my name is Mike Nabolsi, 6900 Orchard Ave., Dearborn, MI. So, I am the pharmacist and owner of Farmington Drugs. Currently we have a 48 square foot sign that’s been there since about 2010. It doesn’t light up, it doesn’t say Farmington Drugs and Medical Supplies - it says just, ‘Medical Supplies.’ It’s outdated, it’s really tight and - - you know -- we just updated a few things in the pharmacy and patients have been asking us for years to update the actual sign of the pharmacy because we do have a lot of elderly patients. Is it okay if I continue to speak about the sign? Coppola: Yes, please. Nabolsi: So, we do have a lot of elderly patients that come to our pharmacy. Our pharmacy has been operating for ten years -- ten plus years. I actually started there in 2010 as a delivery driver. I went to pharmacy school and last year I actually purchased the entire pharmacy. I’m the sole owner of the pharmacy currently and, for example, one of the concerns of our patients was there’s not enough chairs inside the pharmacy so, we quadrupled the amount of chairs. Our doctors in our community and our patients have been asking us to carry specific products, so we truly are a community pharmacy and we do carry items and we -- we serve our community based on what they actually need and because of a lot of our patients being elderly and our sign being so tough to -- to read, it gives us a little bit of a hard time when patients come in, and they love the service, they love our prices, they love how much we -- how -- how much they help us -- or how much we help them, but they’re a little frustrated with being able to locate the pharmacy. We still have patients that come in every single day -- they’re new patients and they just -- their -- the words that come out of their mouth is, “Unfortunately we’ve -- we’ve crossed roads with you 100 times. We passed this building 100 times, we didn’t even know you were a pharmacy.” Even patients who have gone to the Better Health next door -- it’s a vitamin shop -- they walk into the pharmacy thinking we’re just a medical supply store and once they get their prescriptions filled at the pharmacy they’re so surprised that we are actually a pharmacy -- you know -- so a lot of our business is word of mouth -- you know -- what we’re trying to do is -- we are in a prime location and unfortunately our elderly patients are having trouble seeing the sign, reading the sign. If you take for example, Farmington Drugs and Medical Supplies -- it’s not -- it’s not like the term T-Mobile or A T&T. You can’t really fit that in a 50 square foot -- we have -- we have two suites, each suite is allocated 25 square feet, but when you take Farmington Drugs and Medical Supplies, it’s tough to fit that nicely and presentably and where our elderly can actually read it with -- without any issues within that 50 square foot limit. When I was working with the sign guy, he had models that allowed us to see from the street how it would look like and the sign guy really wanted 100 square feet, and we tried to meet in the middle and I think for us, 77 square foot, I know we’re asking for 27 extra square feet, but this would really help the community. We’ve been part of the community for ten years -- you know - - like I said, patients have been asking us -- elderly cannot read the sign, patients and community members still do not know we’re a pharmacy and we’ve been there ten years. That’s -- that’s pretty much all I have to say. I’ll accept any questions or --. Coppola: Okay, so there’s also a sign -- a pole sign I guess I’ll call it, that also you’ve got some signage on also. Nabolsi: Right -- right. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 35 March 3, 2020 Coppola: So, have you thought about trying to use -- I think -- you actually got -- you have two slots here -- trying to use actually that a little more effectively to -- to draw people in? Nabolsi: So right now I’m pretty sure all that says is Farmington Drugs Pharmacy and Medical Supplies and our phone number, so we -- we can use that like -- we -- we have - - I think that’s the best part of our -- our -- you know -- front signage in general -- you know? Our current sign is terrible compared to that -- you know. I -- Coppola: So, you’re not planning on making any changes to that signage? Nabolsi: Not at the moment. Not at the moment. Coppola: Why -- and why not? Nabolsi: I feel -- I feel like it says Pharmacy, it says Farmington Drugs, it says our phone number. We can update it, but if we do update it it would still -- it would still give the same message -- you know -- it’s not as a big -- a bigger of an upgrade as if we were to -- to switch our current wall sign as oppose to the -- to the ground sign on the street, because that ground sign has been there and it’s been doing a great job for us, it’s just the wall sign that’s giving us an issue. Coppola: Okay, questions? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Vice Chair Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Yeah, question for the Building Department. You mentioned earlier that the current sign is 48 square feet. Do you have the dimensions in terms of width and height? Stroble: I do. It is four feet by twelve feet. Baringhaus: Four feet by twelve feet. Stroble: Four feet tall, twelve feet long. Baringhaus: Twelve feet long, okay, great. Okay, thank you very much. On your proposed signage it says -- first line says, ‘Farmington Drugs,’ second line says ‘And Medical Supply Equipment’ -- two lines. Can you tell me a little bit about it? Is that sign -- is that signage illuminated? Nabolsi: At night it is, yeah. Baringhaus: At night. Is it LED illuminated? Nabolsi: I’m not sure if it’s LED, but the -- it’s -- the sign itself or the actual like physical structure illuminates and then you have the -- I don’t think it’s LED -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 35 March 3, 2020 Baringhaus: Okay. Nabolsi: -- but it -- but it does light up. Baringhaus: Is it on a timer? Nabolsi: It is, yep. Baringhaus: It is -- okay. In the version that you have looks like the -- the “F” on the word Farmington and the “D” on the word Drugs is orange and then the rest of the lettering will be white? Nabolsi: Yeah, so it’s -- it’s going to be red. Baringhaus: Oh, red. Okay. Nabolsi: Red. Baringhaus: It -- it looks orange on your slot -- Nabolsi: Right -- right -- right. Baringhaus: -- gotcha, okay. Anyways, the -- the fascia on your building where this signage would go is -- is that more white or is that more tan? I guess what I’m trying to ask -- Nabolsi: It’s more tan -- it’s more tan. Baringhaus: Do you feel there’s enough of a contrast? Because you’re concerned about visibility of your business? Nabolsi: Right -- right. Baringhaus: Do you feel there’s enough of a contrast between that current color tan and the white lettering that you’re proposing? Nabolsi: Absolutely. Baringhaus: Okay. Nabolsi: Absolutely -- especially at night. Baringhaus: On your current signage it seems like, and even on your -- the business -- your neighboring business -- it looks like there’s an electrical conduit that runs to the side into the fascia -- Nabolsi: Right. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 35 March 3, 2020 Baringhaus: -- for the power to the sign. With your new proposed signage would that conduit still be visible, or would that be hidden? Nabolsi: No, it would be hidden. Baringhaus: Hidden? Nabolsi: Yep. Baringhaus: Okay. Okay, thank you very much. Nabolsi: Thank you. Coppola: Any questions? Klisz: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Secretary Klisz. Klisz: Another question for the Inspection Department. Do you guys know the size of ‘The Better Health’ sign next door? It looks similar -- I’m just curious -- width -- width, height -- Liberatore: Can -- can -- my name is Adriana Liberatore, I hope that you will consider favorably for him. This complex has been there since 1980 and I have tried very hard to keep it up and maintaining and looking good. I’ve kept the rent bases low so that it would not have empty spaces, so -- you know -- I’ve tried my best to present a good product for the City of Livonia so I hope that -- you know -- you will take this thing into consideration. I’ve had long term tenants in there -- Better Health has been there from the very beginning and no longer fits their footprint, but they still maintain that store there because of the service to the -- the people in the facility and they’re doing the same thing. Thank you. Coppola: Did you get your question answered? Klisz: No, not yet. I think he’s looking it up. Centers: I have a -- Mr. Chair -- question in the meantime. Coppola: Ms. Centers -- okay. Stroble: We have it as three feet tall by fourteen feet wide -- 42 square feet is ‘The Better Health’ sign. Klisz: Thank you. Coppola: Mrs. Centers, you have a question? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 35 March 3, 2020 Centers: Oh, yes -- so referring back to the sign by the road, have you thought about how it might be effective if it matched the signage on your building and then perhaps that would also match your business cards or whatever? Nabolsi: Yeah -- yeah -- absolutely. So, the -- the thing is is we’re -- we were open to a bunch of different options -- you know -- but the -- you know -- the common -- you know - - agreement within the pharmacy -- I -- we have about 20 - 25 employees and we have thousands of patients -- is that we need to change this wall sign -- you know -- it just -- it’s not -- it’s not a good representation of who we are as a pharmacy -- you know -- so, we can change the ground sign -- you know -- I’m not opposed to that, but the thing is I think we should start with changing the wall sign, because with changing the wall sign we would firstly be able to help more of our patients locate the store instead of ending up in the Walgreens parking lot or the -- there’s an auto shop next door and a carpet place, which is very common -- you know -- and a lot of times they complain about not being -- not being able to find us, so that -- that -- the ground sign does have Farmington Drugs and Medical Supplies and it does have the word pharmacy and it does have our phone number and it’s been like that for ten years. We can change it to say the same things, but in a neater and a nicer way, but I don’t think it’s going to -- Centers: Yeah, this, so this -- the wall sign you have right now I think it’s going to be a lot more clear -- Nabolsi: Absolutely -- yeah. Centers: -- less words, obviously -- I -- the size is concerning, so maybe -- maybe really thinking about bringing that -- that size down, because we wouldn’t want to get any bigger than Better Health. Nabolsi: The thing is is if you take into consideration Better Health is 12 -- 12 letters -- you know -- Farmington Drugs and Medical Supplies -- these are a lot of letters to put into 45 -50 square feet -- you know -- I can -- we can do it in 50 square feet, but it’s going to be so tight -- you know -- and if we want to do it -- if we want to make a new wall sign -- we want to do it properly in a way that’s a good representation of who we are and a good representation of the City and because -- you know -- we all try our best at the pharmacy and we all go above and beyond for our patients and patients love us there and I think this would be -- you know -- a good investment and it -- it would reflect positively upon who we are -- you know -- Centers: Yeah. Nabolsi: -- I know -- I know 77 or the actual 27 square feet seems like a lot of square footage, but if you actually go in front of the pharmacy and you actually see the building and -- and what’s proposed -- it’s not that much -- you know -- in -- in -- in real -- in reality -- you know -- I’m not -- Centers: I just -- Nabolsi: Yeah. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 35 March 3, 2020 Centers: Okay, I just wonder if this could be a two-step solution and that you do replace your wall sign, which you’ve been wanting to do for some time -- Nabolsi: Yeah -- yeah. Centers: Maybe it’s not as big as you would like -- Nabolsi: Yeah. Centers: -- and then the second step would be to think about that -- that ground sign and that could be a lot clearer as well -- Nabolsi: Yeah. Centers: -- and then perhaps the two -- the two steps together would solve your issues. Have you thought about that? Nabolsi: Yeah, we could definitely take it into consideration -- 100%. I -- I just don’t want to make a wall sign and then it still be too small and then I have to go through all this again. Maybe we could just have this and then it’s good for another 15-20 years and then we’re done -- you know -- and then we could also reconsider doing the ground sign too, and which will definitely be down the road, but we are also on a budget -- you know -- Centers: Uh-huh. Nabolsi: We’re a small independent pharmacy -- you know -- but definitely take it into consideration. Centers: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Nabolsi: Thank you. Boloven: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Yes, Mr. Boloven. Boloven: Do you have any renderings of a smaller scale? You said -- you know -- you looked at it and it was shrunk. Did the designer provide you with renderings of it on a smaller scale? Nabolsi: On a smaller scale? He did, actually. Boloven: Do you have those with you, by chance? Nabolsi: Let me see. Unfortunately, I don’t have it with me, but I can get it to you if you like. Boloven: Do you ever try moving around the way that the sign was written to potentially stack higher and then come in on the sides? Go up in height and decrease some length? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 35 March 3, 2020 Nabolsi: Again, the -- the first time the sign guy wanted to do it it was 100 square foot -- you know -- and -- and this was the way he thought that it would fit so that patients on the street can -- can see it properly -- you know -- I told him there’s no way we’re going to get -- get away with that, so he did try multiple things. This -- this -- took maybe 10-15 tries to get it to where it’s at right now and I kept asking him to change it and change it and change it until we got something simple and -- you know -- you know -- presentable, so I don’t want you to think this is like the first attempt where we’re just throwing it up there -- you know what I mean? We do understand the concerns and -- you know -- Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Vice Chair Baringhaus. Baringhaus: You said the store has been in existence for 10 years? Nabolsi: Right. Baringhaus: Okay, great. I noticed behind you you do have a rather -- you have a Walgreens operating behind you. Nabolsi: Right. Baringhaus: In fact, you’re literally right in the shadows -- Nabolsi: Right. Baringhaus: -- of a Walgreens? Nabolsi: Right. Baringhaus: Okay. That’s a fairly large structure, isn’t it? It’s taller than yours? Nabolsi: Huge. Baringhaus: Huge, right. There’s also a fairly large Walgreens sign on the building if I’m correct, a large -- Nabolsi: Right. Baringhaus: -- red Walgreens sign? Nabolsi: Right. Baringhaus: Okay, and you have a 48 square foot sign -- Nabolsi: Uh-huh. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 35 March 3, 2020 Baringhaus: -- for your business. Have your customers ever commented on not being able to find your business because of the Walgreens has such a presence on that corner? Nabolsi: Surprisingly we have patients that just are referred to us by that Walgreens -- Baringhaus: Okay. Nabolsi: -- because we do -- we’re one of the only pharmacies that can bill Medicare for medical supplies. Not many pharmacies have that contract. So, Walgreens will send their patients to us to bill for the medical supplies and then patients ultimately end up transferring to us because they love the service and they love how we dealt with them and the convenience and then they’ll comment on the fact that they’d been going to that Walgreens for years and they didn’t know that we were a pharmacy -- you know -- didn’t even know that we existed. Baringhaus: Uh-huh. Nabolsi: So, the thing is is -- the problem is patients don’t even know that we exist -- you know -- it’s not -- it’s not more of a comparison, it’s more of, “Oh, we don’t even know to compare Walgreens to because we didn’t know it was a pharmacy in the first place.” -- you know?? Baringhaus: Uh-huh. Nabolsi: You know -- so that’s what -- that’s the hurdle that we’re personally trying to overcome -- you know -- that’s pretty much it. Baringhaus: On the -- Nabolsi: Yeah. Baringhaus: -- north and south sides of your property you have trees. One is a large pine tree -- Nabolsi: Yeah. Baringhaus: -- the other is some type of deciduous tree. Nabolsi: Right. Baringhaus: Have you ever looked at maybe trimming those back a little bit to give your store a little more visibility from the street? Nabolsi: Right. I’ve thought about that every single time I drive down Farmington Road - - Baringhaus: Yeah -- (he laughs) Nabolsi: -- because there’s another one -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 35 March 3, 2020 Baringhaus: I didn’t say cut them down, just trim them. Nabolsi: -- yeah, because on that intersection -- on the Eight Mile and Farmington Road intersection there’s actually a tree that blocks our sign like exactly at the perfect angle -- you know -- so, that -- that’s a natural (inaudible) Baringhaus: Gotcha. Nabolsi: -- that we’re battling as well. Baringhaus: Okay, great. Thank you. Nabolsi: Thank you. Coppola: Any other questions? Turbiak: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: You mentioned that there’s a lot of letters in your name. Have you considered changing the name of your company? Nabolsi: It’s so hard to change the name of a pharmacy. You have to go through so much paperwork and then also if you change the name -- you know -- the way doctor’s offices sign those prescriptions? It’s based on the name -- you know -- like when they look you up in their health records and when they’re sending a prescription, they’re sending it to Farmington Drugs and Medical Supplies. It -- it could -- we could do it, it’s -- it’s just a -- a big hurdle -- you know -- we have to sign paperwork with the Board of Pharmacy, the doctors in the areas have to get used to the new name. This is something that we definitely did think about. We even thought about moving the location, but -- you know -- when we collaborated this was the best thing that we could think of -- the simplest way -- the most convenient way for -- for us and our patients. Turbiak: Oh, sorry -- were you done? Nabolsi: No, go ahead. Turbiak: Have you given any consideration to dropping the ‘and Medical Supplies’ portion of the sign? Not from your company name -- officially I understand what you’re saying there, but -- Nabolsi: Right, right. Turbiak: -- just on the wall sign? Nabolsi: The thing is is half our business is medical supplies. Half the store -- 2,000 square feet of -- of our store -- of our store is medical supplies and the other 2,000 is City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 35 March 3, 2020 pharmacy, so we’re actually really proud of the fact that we have both services. Not many pharmacies have that ability or have that -- have that offering -- again -- we want a wall sign that represents our business -- you know -- if we do have to remove it -- you know - - we’ll consider it, but I -- I personally would rather not -- you know. Turbiak: Yeah, I -- ideally -- I understand what you’re saying and as far as the -- the pole sign, because you do have pharmacy written there clearly -- Nabolsi: Yeah. Turbiak: -- so, what is it about the wall sign that explains that you’re a pharmacy? Is it just the name ‘drugs?’ Nabolsi: About the wall sign? Turbiak: Yeah. Nabolsi: It says Farmington Drugs, yeah. Turbiak: Right, so -- so you’re saying that some of your customers don’t know that you’re a pharmacy, right? Nabolsi: Right. Turbiak: Well, I mean I know that we kind of went through this already, but -- you know - - if your name was Farmington Pharmacy -- Nabolsi: Yeah -- yeah, that’s true -- Turbiak: -- maybe that would help you in that situation as well. I know that’s not what you’re here to -- to really discuss. Nabolsi: No, absolutely. I love the suggestions; the thing is patients know us as Farmington Drugs -- you know -- that’s -- that’s our -- that’s who are -- that’s our reputation -- ‘Farmington Drugs.’ Turbiak: Uh-huh. Nabolsi: We can switch it to Farmington Pharmacy, but I don’t know if there’s another Farmington Pharmacy in the area. Turbiak: Right. Nabolsi: Maybe in Farmington there’s a Farmington Pharmacy. Turbiak: Sure. Nabolsi: But definitely a good idea. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 35 March 3, 2020 Turbiak: I had a couple other questions. So, you said that the -- the sign maker said that the sign is scalable, because I see that you have certain size letters now -- I don’t have it in front of me, but I think it was -- whatever it was, but they’re scalable or -- or are there like pre-set sizes available that -- Nabolsi: No, definitely scalable. He -- he can do whatever we want. Turbiak: Half inch, a quarter inch -- Nabolsi: Yeah, yeah. Turbiak: -- or any -- any variation? Okay. Nabolsi: The thing is we can -- we can scale it down too, but it just -- it would look too cramped -- you know -- like I said, it’s not like a T-Mobil or AT&T, where an AT&T would look beautiful in 50 square foot. Turbiak: Uh-huh. Nabolsi: If you put Farmington Drugs and Medical Supplies in 50 square foot it might just look a little too cramped -- a little too small. If you go down the road on Six Mile and Farmington, there’s a -- there’s a new -- next to the Secretary of State -- there’s the Athletico Physical Therapy and they have that whole wall down there -- you know? That’s probably way more than what we’re asking for, but when I look at that I actually look at like what I want my Farmington Drugs wall sign to look like at least in comparison to what they have -- you know -- Turbiak: Uh-huh. Nabolsi: -- more in comparison to what Walgreens has. Like -- like Andriana said, Better Health has been there for how long, fifteen years -- you know -- maybe their sign even needs an upgrade and that’s the process of like a growing business where you do -- you start to grow and you start to upgrade certain things -- you know? Turbiak: I also notice that you have a couple of neon pharmacy signs in your windows -- two, I believe. Are those still there? Nabolsi: Right, so those windows were -- I put you know those stickers that you put on the window it covers the entire window? Turbiak: Yeah. Nabolsi: You put -- we put one on each window and those lines that say, ‘Pharmacy’ and ‘Open’ have moved in the middle. So, those windows are now covered with like a picture of a wheelchair, a picture of some of the services that we offer in -- in hopes that it would combat this issue -- you know -- Turbiak: Uh-huh. Are you aware that exposed neon other than for an open sign is not allowed per the ordinance? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 35 March 3, 2020 Nabolsi: Oh, really? Turbiak: Would you be willing to take those down and --? Nabolsi: 100%, yeah. That -- that pharmacy sign has been there for 10 years. Turbiak: Right. Nabolsi: But, definitely I’ll -- we’ll -- we’ll be able to take it down, yeah. Turbiak: Okay, that’s all, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Any other questions? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Vice Chair Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Okay, yeah looking at -- your current sign is basically four feet by twelve feet, or 48 square feet, just kind of confirming here. With your proposed sign you’re actually proposing to make it narrower than your existing sign to 42”, which is gone down from four feet to three and half feet -- Nabolsi: Uh-huh. Baringhaus: -- but then extending the length of it from 12 feet to 22 feet -- Nabolsi: Right. Baringhaus: -- to just gain some exposure. Do you feel you have the spacing on your fascia -- Nabolsi: 100% Baringhaus: -- to accomplish that? Nabolsi: 100%, yep. Baringhaus: Okay, great. Thank you. Coppola: Okay, anymore? Alright, seeing that there’s none, is there anybody in the audience, I don’t think there probably is, but I’ll say it anyways -- is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak for or against this project? There is none. Do you have any correspondence? Klisz: No correspondence. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 35 March 3, 2020 Coppola: No correspondence, okay. So, Mr. Nabolsi, would you like to make a final statement? Nabolsi: Yeah, thank you guys so much for your time, honestly. This is my first time in front of a Board of any type and honestly you guys have been more than helpful. We have some City Council members that -- that do come to the pharmacy and appreciate our -- our service too. I just want to say one thing, I’m just going to cut it really short. We’re on the corner of Eight Mile and Farmington Road -- you know -- we take a lot of pride in that. Honestly if you guys allow -- allow us to have this new sign it will look beautiful -- you know -- It will light up that -- that -- that corner and it’s -- it’s an independent community - - community pharmacy -- you know -- this is a Livonia based pharmacy. I’m telling you; it will look beautiful and we would love your support -- honestly, and even if you guys don’t approve it, you guys should still stop by the pharmacy and say hi. Board: (all laugh) Nabolsi: Come get your drugs -- you know? Alright guys, thank you. Baringhaus: Thank you. Coppola: Alright, thanks. I’m going to close the public portion of the case and start the Board’s comments with Mr. Boloven. Boloven: I like the sign, I do see a need for a hardship, I just don’t know if that much larger than what we allow is sufficient. I’d like to see those scaled back drawings -- I mean -- I -- I -- I get you’re saying it will look smudged, but I kind of wish you had them today, so I’d be in support of a tabling until I see a reduced scale as I think this one’s probably a little too big compared to the space of the building in -- in relation to our ordinance. Coppola: Vice Chair Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Yeah, I agree with Mr. Boloven. Yeah, there’s definitely a need for a hardship -- there’s a hardship here. I guess I’ll -- a couple things that the Petitioner said that was interesting, one is -- you know -- they do operate very close to the Walgreens, it’s a large building and is very distinct Walgreens architecture and a large Walgreens sign and has quite a presence on that corner. It’s great that you guys work together as well as you do, but if you’re not familiar with the area I can see where people would be keying in on that store and -- you know -- overlooking your store as well. And another thing too is that you are a pharmacy, but you’re -- you’re an independent pharmacy where in Livonia if you use a pharmacy you tend to -- as you know it’s all -- a lot of national brands here so, you’re -- you’re again -- you’re up against those, but there are other independents like yourself that have similar situations where -- you know -- you know -- you’re pretty much like in a standardized square rectangular building -- you know -- people maybe don’t know about you as well, but you serve a purpose because you do -- you know -- you’re specialized and you know your customers well and things like that, so and it’s probably a challenge -- with pharmacies I’ve seen like that it’s always a challenge for them to get some sort of presence on the road, which is what you’re looking for. I guess I’m inclined to -- I would like to see the smaller scale versions of the sign. I think the sign is well designed and I do like it, but we’ve seen it in one size, which was -- you know -- three and City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 35 March 3, 2020 a half feet by twenty-two feet. If there’s a smaller version that’s workable we’d like to look at that as well. I think you received an excellent recommendation from the Board tonight in terms of when you’re ready, get your -- have your new signage aligned to the sign on the -- on the pole sign, which I -- I think you realize it’s just a matter of budget when you want to do that, so at this point I would support tabling -- a tabling motion. Coppola: Secretary Klisz. Klisz: I agree with my colleagues. Thank you for your commitment. It sounds like you run a -- a good business and you have a lot of happy clients. I think it’s important to note that you do have the ground sign, which again I think you even said that a lot of people see that and -- and come in off of that, so you’ve got kind of a nice situation with the double sign. Now, is your current sign accurate? It’s not -- you know -- it doesn’t have the right name in it, it’s old fashioned looking, it’s ugly. Should it be changed? Yes, but here -- here’s the but is that you’re asking for something that is twice as big as Better Health, and that will just look silly -- it just will. You guys share the building and they have 42 square feet and they’re allowed 50 and you’re allowed 50, but -- you know -- for you to have 77 and them to have 42 is just not going to look right, so I would definitely find the hardship for replacing the sign, but it just can’t be that big. If it was a little bit over, maybe. I guess that’s -- I would have to just see when you come back, give us some versions of it that are appealable to you and -- and we’ll figure one that works out, but it needs to be closer to the limit rather than twice the size of the neighbors sign. Coppola: Alright, thank you. Mrs. Centers. Centers: I agree that the new sign is really going to be a great improvement. I think it’s going to be a great investment for you. I have no problem with the look of the sign, the length is of concern and I would be in favor of tabling as well to see some different options that are still very visible and attractive, so -- Coppola: Thank you. Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: Thank you. Yeah, I would not be in support of the -- the design as proposed tonight. I would be willing to table this. I do agree that you need a new sign for many of the reasons already mentioned. I think that this one is too big; I think that you can achieve better clarity over that sign with a smaller version of the same basic layout that you have now. I understand your need and interest to keep the, ‘and Medical Supplies’ portion of that. I also think that you need to trim the trees. I saw the same thing that I think you were describing coming northbound on Farmington. That tree is just right where you don’t want it. So, I don’t know if there’s anything that can be done with the branches, or if it’s really the trunk that’s in the way, but I think that will go a long way to help you make the pole sign visible, which is going to be the thing that most travelers that aren’t looking specifically for your building are -- are going to see and that’s going to help draw in new customers and like I said, having a new updated sign is going to look really nice. I think that people will realize that you are a pharmacy and a medical supply store without having it so big as what you’re asking for today, so for those reasons I would probably be in favor of tabling. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 35 March 3, 2020 Coppola: Alright, thank you. Mr. Nabolsi, you make a -- a very compelling argument. I appreciate you coming before us and I think it’s been a -- this has been a great business in the community for ten years and you’ve survived for ten years in the shadow of Walgreens, which I think is -- is pretty impressive. They’re -- they’re a tough -- they’re a tough business to compete against, which I think also suggests that some of the hardships that you’re -- that you’ve outlined, I don’t even know if I’d call them hardships, but challenges that you’ve outlined in regards to your business you’ve been able to overcome pretty well. I do agree that a redesign of the sign would be helpful to you. What I don’t agree with though, however, is that -- that it needs to be bigger than what’s allowed. I think between a new sign, an appropriate size -- I think if you down scaled it to fit there it would still look really good, along with the redesign, the money saved on that, and you’d reduce that probably what, about 20% - 25%, maybe a little more - 30%, the money you save on that to put into the -- to the pole sign, I think between the two of those would be the most -- most effective, most efficient and -- and best use of -- of the money that you’re going to use for your advertising. I just at this point don’t believe that there’s a hardship here, but I do believe that you should -- as I’m a small business owner too -- I think signage is important and you need to use it effectively. I think spending a little money and making an investment in your signage, not only on the wall, but on the pole sign, will go -- go a long way for you. So, in -- in summary, I am -- I’m not in support of -- of this variance. I’m not in support of a tabling. I think that -- that you’ve got more than enough signage available to you, you just need to use it in the best and effective manner that you can. So, I’ll go ahead and open up the floor for -- for a motion. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Vice Chair Baringhaus. Upon motion by Baringhaus and supported by Boloven, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2020-03-05: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Adriana Liberatore, 22462 Statler, St. Clair Shores, MI 48081, on behalf of Lessee Farmington Drugs & Medical Supplies, 20434 Farmington, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a wall sign, resulting in excess wall sign area. Wall Sign Area: Allowed: 50 sq. ft. Proposed: 77 sq. ft. Excess: 27 sq. ft. The property is located on the east side of Farmington (20434), between Norfolk and Eight Mile, Lot. No. 010-01-0009-002, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H(b),2, “Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts,” be tabled in order to allow the Petitioner the opportunity to take into consideration the Board’s comments and return with a revised sign design for his business. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Turbiak, Centers, Boloven, Klisz, Baringhaus City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 35 March 3, 2020 NAYS: Coppola ABSENT: Fraske RECUSED: None Coppola: Alright, so, your petition has been tabled to give you the opportunity to revise your petition, taking into consideration the comments of the Board. Okay, and like I said th the next meeting open is in April -- the 14 and you need to get your revised petition in th by the 16 of this month. There’s no -- no additional fees to do that -- that’s all covered, you just need to go see Marilyn and submit your revised petition. Now, you don’t have to revise it, but I would recommend that you listen to the comments of the Board and -- and make some changes and then I guess we look forward to -- to seeing you back when you’re prepared to -- to make a new -- a new pitch. Nabolsi: Absolutely, thank you. Coppola: Alright, thank you. Can you call the next case, please. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 35 March 3, 2020 APPEAL CASE NO. 2020-03-06: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Rares Tunea and Luminita Popa, 18291 Floral, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to maintain a six foot tall privacy screen erected beyond the side building line of the residence, which is not allowed. Privacy screens must be ten feet from the rear property line and not extend beyond the side building line of the home toward the side property lines. The property is located on the west side of Floral (18291), between Curtis and Pickford, Lot. No. 045-02-0148-001, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090C, “Residential District Regulations.” Coppola: Alright, thank you. Mr. Stroble, Mr. Albus, anything to add? Stroble: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Turbiak: Yes, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: For a privacy screen, is a permit required - sometimes, always or never? Stroble: Never. Turbiak: Okay. Boloven: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Boloven. Boloven: So, looking -- I -- I just need some clarification of this. I went to the property, looking at the pictures, what is the exact violation that’s here tonight before us? Stroble: The privacy screen cannot extend further than the house on the sides. Boloven: So, we’re just -- Stroble: It cannot side yard any further than the house itself. Boloven: So, we’re just looking at the length, essentially, the -- the -- and I guess looking at this diagram on page 12 -- 10 feet? Is that the overage? Six foot on one side, four foot on the other? Stroble: Sounds about right. I didn’t measure it. Boloven: Who -- who did this diagram, do you know? Was that us or was that from the Petitioner? Sorry, the City or the Petitioner? Page 12 in the packet. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 35 March 3, 2020 Turbiak: Chris, actually the -- the overage is 38 feet, technically. Boloven: So, I’m looking at this. Turbiak: Yep -- yep! Page 12, I think. Boloven: Yeah. Turbiak: So, the way -- Boloven: I see a six foot on the one side and a four foot on the other side. Wouldn’t that -- Turbiak: Those are the distances from the property lines. Albus: That’s correct. Turbiak: So, if you look at the -- the house sitting closer to the street, the rectangle shape? Technically, per the ordinance, the privacy screen cannot go outside of those bounds. So, this is a north south street, so it cannot go north or south (inaudible) of the sides of the house. So, if you look at the garage, which sits -- you know -- aligned with the -- the one side of the house, it’s 24 feet wide, so all of that 24 feet is technically -- would -- would require a variance, plus the additional 20 feet minus the six from the property line, so another 14 feet totaling 38 feet. Boloven: So, the total is 38 feet? Centers: So, we’re not considering the garage as part of the house? Albus: Correct. -- 21:05:08. Turbiak: Per the ordinance, it’s not. Coppola: Mr. Stroble, did we determine whether it -- it is, from your perspective, it’s ten feet from the property line? I know the Petitioner provided a schematic, but you didn’t confirm that. Stroble: I’m -- didn’t measure on site, but it looks close. Coppola: Are there any other questions for the Inspection Department? Centers: Yes. Coppola: Okay, Mrs. Centers. Centers: So, because this is a privacy screen you are not considering this a double fence situation? Stroble: That’s correct. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 35 March 3, 2020 Centers: Okay, thank you. Turbiak: I have another question. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: When -- if -- if in this case the Petitioner were to put up a privacy fence on the property line, and if the neighbors had dogs and it would be a juggling act or an inconvenience, do we have ever allow them to build the fence, get it signed off, and then remove the old fence? So, there would be a temporary double fence? Stroble: Yes, there is situations where they have dogs, but they can usually do the fence in the timely manner where the dogs can be inside and -- Turbiak: Well, it’s one thing for the -- for the -- the owner, who’s installing the fence to work around that, but sometimes I think it helps with neighbor’s schedules, and -- Stroble: Yeah, you could -- you could just do it in sections or, but I don’t see a problem with a temporary as long as it’s removed. It wouldn’t be approved by the department until it was removed. Turbiak: Okay, thanks. That’s all. Coppola: Alright, anything else? If the Petitioner could state their name and address first, please? Popa: My name is Rares Tunea, I live at 18291 Floral Street. We’ve been living there for 13 years and last year in the summer, as soon as we found out my wife is pregnant, we said that we have to do something about the -- the dogs at the rear of the property. And I went on the Livonia website and read the ordinance about the privacy fence that it doesn’t require a permit or anything and they said not to extend past the residence, but I -- I understand that my whole property is the residence, I didn’t know that it was the actual building of the house. So, I -- I read all the requirements for the fence -- you know -- it’s got to be 10 feet away from the -- from the property lot and it has to be -- you know -- two inches off the ground, and maximum six - four -- six - four, and I went ahead and I -- I build it, because I -- I thought I was in compliance with everything -- you know -- I didn’t know I’m going to get in trouble for this situation. And I -- I left access on both sides, it’s all properly maintained, it’s not abandoned back there. I -- I didn’t know this is something that’s -- that’s illegal -- you know. I -- that’s -- that’s what I’m saying, we didn’t want our daughter to grow afraid of dogs -- you know -- because as soon as we walk outside there’s dogs running to the fence and I just said, “We’re gonna spend some money, and we gonna sacrifice some property and we gonna get a privacy screen.” We have three neighbors in the back. We have a two and a half lot property and we have three neighbors in the back and it would have been too much hassle to deal with to get three approvals and then deal with each individual neighbor to -- to put up a different fence -- you know - - so we said that we’ll sacrifice some of the space from our yard and do it this way, which we thought it was legal, we didn’t know it was something that’s not supposed to be there. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 35 March 3, 2020 Coppola: Did you look at any alternatives such as landscaping or other types of visual barriers besides the fence? Tunea: Yes, but it would -- it would take too long and then it needs to be maintained and everything -- you know -- we are -- we are busy people and we didn’t want our backyard to be neglected or anything. Coppola: Well, a fence needs to be maintained too, right? Tunea: Yes, but not like landscaping. Coppola: And, how many of the neighbors’ butt to your back-property line have dogs? Tunea: Well, we corner one lot, so it’s one, two, three -- three of them. Coppola: All three have dogs? Tunea: Well, there’s a fourth one that’s only touching like in the corner, it’s like a corner thing -- it’s not that good. Coppola: Uh-huh. Tunea: The -- the properties are meeting in the corner. Coppola: So, all four. And, what type of dogs do they have? Tunea: It’s three out of four, yes. Coppola: Three out of four, and what type of dogs? Tunea: I’m sure they’re not dangerous, but they’re barking at everything they see in the backyard -- you know -- and for a -- for a baby girl, it will be -- you know -- scared. I’m -- I don’t feel threatened of them or anything, they don’t bother me, but for a kid -- you know. Coppola: Questions? Klisz: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Secretary Klisz. Klisz: So, you checked with the City and -- and when you told them what you wanted to build, they told you did not need a permit for this, correct? Tunea: No, I checked the website. I checked the -- the zoning ordinance on the website, and I read about not to extend past the residence, but to my understanding the resident is the whole property -- that’s how -- that was my understanding. Klisz: Okay, so you didn’t hear until the City came to you with the violation letters, correct? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 35 March 3, 2020 Tunea: Correct, and then I tried to go and pull a permit for it and I was told that I don’t need a permit. Klisz: Right. Tunea: I mean the -- the inspector was out there a couple of times. He said it’s well built, it’s ten -- it’s more than ten feet away from the property line, he checked the height, he checked everything, and he said the only issue is the -- is the length. Klisz: Right, so, the -- how -- how many neighbors are -- are behind the privacy screen? Is it one or two that -- that are along that back line? Tunea: All three. Klisz: Okay. Have you talked to them about it? Did they -- they -- no one’s here and no one’s filed any letters either approving or objecting, so I’m just curious. Have you talked to them? Do they like it? Do they have any problem with it? Tunea: No, I didn’t talk to anybody. I was -- one of them is renting. I was trying to reach the -- the first thing I tried to do is build a privacy fence route -- Klisz: Right. Tunea: -- but because I couldn’t reach one of them, I said -- you know -- even if the other one -- the other two approve, I’m still -- you know -- so I said -- you know -- I guess I -- I’m sacrificing some space in my backyard. I have a big backyard because I have two and a half lots, so that didn’t bother us and we -- we spent the money ourselves and -- you know -- because when you’re dealing with neighbors -- you know -- it isn’t easy -- easy thing, you know. Klisz: Right, they’re indifferent basically is your understanding. Tunea: Correct. Klisz: Okay, thank you. That’s all I have. Coppola: Let’s take a couple of questions here. Looks like this came -- you -- your first, and correct me if I’m wrong, Mr. Stroble, looks like your first contact was back in -- in June of this summer -- Stroble: That is correct. Coppola: -- and I saw -- I noticed in there there was a comment, ‘owner owns both properties.’ Tunea: There’s a -- the lots are merged. When we built the garage, we had to merge the lots, -- Coppola: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 35 March 3, 2020 Tunea: -- so It’s only one lot now. There’s only one address, used to be two addresses -- 18291 and 18303 -- no, is it -- yeah, 303, but it’s a single lot now. Coppola: Okay, well you -- so you were first contacted back in June of last summer, and it’s now March of 20, so we’re talking nine months. What -- what took you so long for you to get in front of us? Tunea: We were out of the country when we -- we got the notice, we found it back in August, and then it was my wife’s pregnancy and I had to find an architect and then -- you know -- the -- the paper was done in I think the end of November -- the plans, and then I -- I filed it after the holidays. I filed it back in January, I believe. I was -- I was working on this all along. I been to the Building Department several times to talk to the inspectors, maybe there’s an exception or something we can do, but we ended up doing a -- a zoning. Coppola: Okay. And just real quick, Mr. Stroble -- this came to the Inspection Department’s attention by someone filing a complaint? Stroble: That’s correct. We have two complainants on file. Coppola: Do you have the addresses -- you don’t happen to have the addresses for those two complainants, do you? Stroble: I do. Coppola: So, which -- which neighbors would they be? Or, are they neighbors? Stroble: They’re both on Gillman, so -- Coppola: Okay. Alright, thank you. Other questions? Baringhaus: Yeah, Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Vice Chair Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Who installed the fence? Tunea: Myself. Baringhaus: You did. Tunea: Yes. Baringhaus: So, why did you need an architect? Tunea: I have a problem drawing, and -- you know -- I didn’t -- I don’t know how to draw to scale and I wanted it to be professional. Baringhaus: Who did you purchase the fence from? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 35 March 3, 2020 Tunea: Home Depot. Baringhaus: Home Depot, so -- I mean -- those fences are prebuilt, why would you need an architect? Tunea: No, they’re not. They’re built -- I bought the posts and I put the two by fours and then the -- then the boards -- it’s not the prebuilt fence. Baringhaus: Today, do you still do not have a permit? As you’ve never filed for a permit. Tunea: It’s not required. Baringhaus: Well, the complaint I’m reading here, you have two complaint letters and as of January of this year, the inspector is still saying you don’t have a permit and then the fence is illegally put up. Tunea: Yes, but the -- the Inspect -- the Building Department say -- is saying it is not required. Because it’s not a -- it’s not a fence, it’s a screen, sir. Baringhaus: Okay. Were you aware that two complaints were filed by your neighbors? Tunea: Yes. It was on the website of the City. Baringhaus: No, prior to building the fence, did you discuss this? Tunea: No. No, I didn’t. Baringhaus: You had no discussion at all. Tunea: No. Baringhaus: Okay, thank you. Tunea: Because this is behind their garage I did -- they never come back there -- I mean -- we don’t have any contact because their garages are set back all the way -- almost to the property line and we don’t have contact with them, they -- they never hang out over there. Our yard is open to back. Baringhaus: Okay, great. Thank you. Boloven: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Boloven. Boloven: Question for Building Department. The substance of the complaint -- do you have those? Stroble: Yes, but -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 35 March 3, 2020 Boloven: What -- what’s the -- Stroble: -- what the complaint is? Boloven: Yeah, -- what’s the -- what’s the reason for the complaints? Stroble: Put up a wooden privacy fence -- double fence, no permit. A friend of theirs cut wires down and they are just draping over the wooden fence. They also have a pool. Boloven: So, nothing about appearance, just the fact of a -- putting up a fence without a permit? Stroble: That’s correct. Boloven: Thank you. Coppola: Any other questions? Alright, seeing not -- there’s no one in the audience, so I think we can probably skip the audience participation. Any correspondence? Klisz: There are no letters. Coppola: No letters. Okay, and would you like to make a final statement? Tunea: Well, like I said. We don’t -- we just want something like a from our daughter to be able to enjoy our backyard and we didn’t think this was going to be something that’s going to cause so much trouble for us. We wouldn’t spend that much money and time for -- for something that would be illegal. Maybe some -- some better clarification on the website for the Zoning Ordinance - maybe like a drawing that would explain better -- what the requirements are for zoning? You know -- because it was -- like I said, to my understanding it was -- it was legal. Thank you everybody. Coppola: Alright, thank you. I’m going to close the public portion of this case and open with the Board’s comments with Vice Chair Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Well, considering that we’re viewing it as a privacy fence, rather than a double fence situation I agree -- looking at the fence itself it is very well constructed. You did say you had two neighbor complaints, but I find it interesting that nobody’s here tonight that emotionally upset about this fence. I think you’ve -- you know -- you’ve taken some steps to ensure the long term maintenance of it, you’ve given yourself access ways to go behind the fence and maintain it and you’ve given yourself enough space so it’s not creating like a -- a double fence situation. Normally I’d be a little hesitant about the length of it, but I think one of the factors you have is the fact that you do have a pool back there as well. I think it’s by your -- is it by the shed, if I’m not mistaken? Tunea: Correct. Baringhaus: Okay, so while the bulk of the fence -- you know -- is the width of the house, I think with the pool it might be -- you know -- beneficial for you to have a little more privacy City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 35 March 3, 2020 fencing. Because of that, I guess primarily based on the fact I don’t see a lot of neighbor resistance to it, there’s no letters, I’m in -- I’m inclined to support the variance. Coppola: Secretary Klisz. Klisz: I agree. I -- I guess I came in a little confused and figured this was a fencing situation and that here’s another person who put up a fence without a permit and -- you know -- what are we going to do about it? Are we going to take it down? And yet, here we are and it’s not that way at all. It’s -- you know -- obviously -- I guess -- the only edit would be is that the Petitioner could have called the Inspection Department and talked to them about what the definition of residence was and -- you know -- the website obviously was not clear to him. So, that aside, it doesn’t need a permit, it’s not a double fence, there is no neighbors objecting, now there’s no letters being filed and it really just comes down to there’s 30 foot of screen that’s out there and again, I think what Mr. Baringhaus said is that it has a couple purposes and it’s not a double fence, it’s a screen, it’s not a permit required, it’s in the right spot from the setback standpoint and technically if we said take down the 30 feet on that side of it it would just look stupid in my opinion, so given all that I think I am in support. Coppola: Ms. Centers. Centers: I do see what my colleagues are saying, I just wonder if perhaps a compromise would be to have you remove 14 feet from the north side? Okay, 14 feet from the north side. That would allow you to have the fence from the width of your home as well as the garage, even though we’re technically not supposed to include the garage. So, then maybe it would make it a little less obtrusive to the two neighbors that have filed the complaint which are also located on that north side as well. So, just to -- just a thought for a possible compromise. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: Yeah, so as Ms. Centers just pointed out. I just want make it clear to the rest of the Board that -- you know -- we mentioned that there’s nobody here and there’s no letters, but there are two files -- two complaints on file -- if you -- if you look in our package -- you know -- those are the two neighbors directly to the west of his property. They -- they both overlap 100% of their property with -- with his property. So, I think we should take that into consideration. I do think that a compromise could be considered, and I -- I would be willing to table this in order to get the Petitioner a chance to come back with something where the -- the part behind the garage is basically left and perhaps the other portion is either removed or replaced by shrubs or turned at a 90 degree angle so that it doesn’t go beyond the garage. If -- if there weren’t complaints from the neighbors I might be more apt to just leave the whole thing as it is, but I think without having an understanding of the neighbors’ complaints and them having it on file, they’re probably trusting that the City has captured that and is taking that into consideration. I mean all that said, if we could rewind the -- the clock and -- you know -- I would have encouraged the Petitioner to work harder on just getting the fence agreement with the neighbors because I think that way he would have his whole yard. The entire length would be covered. I understand that there’s some -- some difficulty with the dogs and all that, but as -- as I cleared up with the Inspection Department before the case really got started -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 35 March 3, 2020 you know -- that we can allow a temporary double fence so, again, I mean -- we already have and I know that would take a lot of work and some money, but -- I mean -- we want to make this right, so that -- that would be another option that the Petitioner could come back -- I -- I guess if that’s the case if he wants to pursue that route he doesn’t need to come back to us, he can go and get all the approvals from the neighbors and then he can -- you know -- you know -- work with the Inspection Department so that they understand that there will be a temporary double fence while it’s being installed, but I -- I don’t -- I can’t support it as is. Coppola: Alright, thank you. Mr. Boloven. Boloven: I -- I guess if above the mix, I’d be in support of a combination of what Mr. Turbiak is saying and what Ms. Centers is saying. I just don’t see the hardship. I get what’s being stated about the dogs and safety, but again there’s another fence back there that allegedly should be keeping the dogs in, this is more of a screen concern, so what’s before us, and that’s kind of -- everybody got my confusion at the start -- what are we really examining tonight? It’s these 38 feet of overage and -- and again, I don’t see where the hardship really is. If anything, I’d be more toward where Ms. Centers is and -- I guess -- at least knock off the 14 feet, but like I said, combined with Ms. -- what Mr. Turbiak is saying, what really probably should have been done is you got the whole fence almost covering the backyard other than ten feet. It probably would have been best just to replace out that back fence and call it a day, but with the opening of both sides I just -- I don’t see where the hardship is on this, so I -- I wouldn’t be in support of this as it’s presented. Coppola: Alright, thank you. I am not supportive of -- of a variance on this. I think two -- two -- three main issues here. Number one, I’m -- I’m not inclined to set a precedence such as this in regards to allowing this type of -- of a variance to -- to the ordinance. I also don’t think it’s really in the -- in the spirit of the ordinance a screening or, what’s the right word? What was it called? Tunea: Privacy screen. Coppola: Privacy screen -- generally you see a privacy screen the intent is -- it’s -- it’s to block off a patio or certain area to provide you a little bit of privacy from your neighbors, not to shield yourself from your neighbor. That’s what a -- that’s what a privacy fence is for and my third point was, I really think this is more of an effort to -- to circumvent requirements for building a fence, which is a permit and the exclusion of a double fence for a specific purpose. From my perspective I -- I just -- I -- I can’t support this at all. So, I’ll go ahead, and I’ll open up the floor for a motion. Centers: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Ms. Centers. Upon motion by Centers and supported by Boloven, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2020-03-06: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Rares Tunea and Luminita Popa, 18291 Floral, Livonia, MI 48152, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 35 March 3, 2020 seeking to maintain a six-foot-tall privacy screen erected beyond the side building line of the residence, which is not allowed. Privacy screens must be ten feet from the rear property line and not extend beyond the side building line of the home toward the side property lines. The property is located on the west side of Floral (18291), between Curtis and Pickford, Lot. No. 045-02-0148-001, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090C, “Residential District Regulations,” be denied for the following reasons and finding of facts.  That the Petitioner has not demonstrated to the Board that a practical difficulty exists because the uniqueness requirement is not met; and  That the proposed variance is not in the best interest of the immediate area or in the City of Livonia. Coppola: I have a motion on the floor from Mrs. Centers for a denial, do I have support? Centers: (after a long pause) That’s okay. Coppola: So, I don’t have support -- I assume then we can open it up for an alternative motion? Boloven: I’ll support the motion. Coppola: Alright, I have a motion by Ms. Centers, supported by Mr. Boloven to deny -- deny the petition. I don’t believe we need to have a discussion on denial, so we’ll go ahead and -- and take the vote, please. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Turbiak, Centers, Boloven, Coppola NAYS: Klisz, Baringhaus ABSENT: Fraske RECUSED: None Coppola: So, your petition has been -- been denied. So, you will need to remove the portion of fence that -- that is not in compliance. You can maintain the portion of the -- of the privacy screen that is in compliance. Tunea: Can at least we go the other route and remove just the 14 feet that’s behind the garage? Coppola: It’s -- the -- the petition has been denied. Tunea: Oh, I -- I don’t understand if taking care of this, so I ask -- you know -- if-- Coppola: No, it was -- it was -- it was discussed amongst the Board and -- and have decided that it wasn’t -- it’ wasn’t acceptable. So, so you’ll have to remove the fence so that you’re -- portions of the fence that’s not in compliance with the ordinance. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 35 March 3, 2020 Tunea: Okay, but the thing is if I have to remove that I’m going to have to put a bigger shed over there in the back and the neighbors -- they gonna get -- still gonna get something over there because -- I got a small -- Coppola: You’re allowed to -- within the confines of the zoning ordinance you’re allowed I think what, 200 square foot? Tunea: Yes -- Coppola: A sheds without any -- you know -- you can put that up all you need to do is get a permit and follow the -- the building codes. Tunea: So, that’s going to go instead of the existing fence that I have to remove and it’s going to be covered anyway by the -- by the, so I don’t know why you cannot -- I cannot keep a -- Coppola: It’s -- that’s -- that’s purely your -- your option to do that if that’s what you’d like to do. Boloven: Sir, you might end up back here again if you try to do a bigger shed because you have a detached garage so -- I mean -- there’s always -- there’s a chance when you go to file a permit for that that that comes back before us anyway. Tunea: It’s not allowed up to 200 square feet? Coppola: 200 square feet is what the max you’re allowed, yes. Tunea: Yes. Boloven: He -- he’s got one there. Tunea: Oh, no that’s going to come down and the grass is going to continue back there and -- Coppola: Your -- Turbiak: So, the way I see it you have two options. You can put in the shed and -- and fill in the gap between the shed and your permitted privacy screen with some arborvitae or some shrubs, or you could use that shed as leverage against your neighbors to get them to sign (inaudible) and just put it on the lot line, because I think on the lot line is -- is the right solution. Tunea: Yeah, but that -- that’s -- you know -- I already spent the money and time to put up a fence and now to take it down and move it somewhere else and the -- the double fencing would -- would not work. You cannot build a -- a fence when you have a chain- link fence in place because you got to be on the property line and that’s -- Coppola: You know a double fence isn’t -- isn’t permitted. It’s -- it’s Michigan rights. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 35 March 3, 2020 Tunea: No, just like a temporary -- just a temporary -- it was presented to be a temporary to -- while it’s built. Turbiak: But you can take -- you could perhaps take it down in -- in smaller portions if need be and coordinate with the neighbors so that their dogs weren’t out when the fence was out and you were putting up that one section. You -- you could work it out. Tunea: Okay, I’m just -- Coppola: I’m sorry, but we can’t -- we can’t approve it as it’s presented. Tunea: Oh, where can I appeal this? Coppola: You can -- circuit court -- Wayne County Circuit Court. Tunea: Can I get some instruction, please? Coppola: You can get those instructions from -- from the -- from the zoning office. Tunea: I mean none of my neighbors objected and nobody -- I don’t understand why -- if somebody had something to say they would be here. Coppola: Well actually two -- the two did object. They filed a complaint, which is probably -- Tunea: But, they would have sent a letter if there was -- nobody said anything about the appearance of the fence, or it just that was no permit and that’s not required, so it’s all -- it’s all fake -- false acquisitions. All the neighbor’s complaint was that -- is not -- is not permitted, but there’s no permit required, so you guys are making a decision on something that doesn’t exist, that’s -- how is that working? Coppola: Well, actually we -- we made a decision on the facts that were presented, and we believe that we’ve made an appropriate -- if you disagree with that you have the ability to appeal it to the Wayne County Circuit Court. Tunea: Yeah, okay. Thank you. Coppola: Alright, thank you. We have some minutes to approve. Boloven: Mr. Chair, before we get to there. I -- I just want to make sure it was clear on Ms. Centers motion. Did -- did you say ‘Further, the denial of this appeal is in the best area in the immediate area in the City of Livonia’? Centers: I did not state that, no. I should have stated that. Boloven: Can we add that post motion or what’s the procedure on that? Mootsey: That’s your question. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 35 March 3, 2020 Neville: Well, no I’m trying to -- I don’t have my -- but if -- I guess you would -- Coppola: So, you want to correct -- what do you want to correct the record? Boloven: Correct. Just to add that the -- the third point would be ‘Further that the denial of this appeal is in the best interest of the immediate area in the City of Livonia’. Coppola: So -- Centers: I would agree with that amendment. Boloven: And I second that. Coppola: Who’s all in favor? Board: Aye. Coppola: Okay. Boloven: Thank you. Coppola: Alright, thanks, sir. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 35 March 3, 2020 Klisz: Mr. Chair. A motion to approve the minutes of February 4, 2020. Coppola: Support. Baringhaus: Support. Coppola: All in favor? Board: Aye. Coppola: Alright, we’ve got Mr. -- I mean -- Vice Chair Baringhaus has something -- an update in regards to the training we talked about at our last meeting. Baringhaus: Okay, yeah, thank you Mr. Chairman. We’ve been working on this and the budget was approved for the training, it’s being developed as we speak. Right now, the th date we have set for the training will be Thursday, March 19 and it’s going to be 7:00 p.m. until 9:30 p.m. here in the City Hall Auditorium. The training itself is going to be conducted by Paul Lipens. Paul is a Director of Urban Design and Ability with McKenna, He is a -- his most recent experience was with the -- as Project Manager of the Livonia Vision Master Plan. So, what we’ll do is we’ll -- the agenda will probably look something like -- we’ll be talking about Planning and Zoning teams, their roles and functions within the City, what resources are available to both -- you know -- Planning Commission, and Zoning Boards as well look at the powers, functions, and responsibilities of our Board in some detail and then also that of the Planning Commission. We’re planning to actually open the training up -- we’ll be inviting City Council, the Mayor’s office, Planning Commission -- actually it’s for us and then we’ll also include like the Building Inspection Departments, Legal Departments so we have a very broad audience as well, so again -- th it will be Thursday, March 19, 7:00 p.m. until 9:30 p.m. We’ll send out an email to confirm solid arrangements, so thank you. Coppola: Okay, thank you. Looking forward to it. I think it will be -- it will be helpful and interesting, so hopefully all of you can make it. I know some of you are busy this time of the year, but hopefully you can sneak out for a few hours and join us for some professional development. Alright, I just need one more motion. Boloven: Mr. Chair, motion to adjourn. Coppola: Do I have a second? Klisz: Second. Coppola: All in favor? Board: Aye. Coppola: We are adjourned. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 35 March 3, 2020 There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned at 8:22 p.m. _______________________________ Gregory Coppola, Chairman ______________________________ Timothy Klisz, Secretary /mm City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 35 March 3, 2020