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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1,194 - January 31, 2023 signedMINUTES OF THE 1,194th PUBLIC HEARINGS AND REGULAR MEETING HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA On Tuesday, January 31, 2023, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its 1,194th Public Hearing and Regular Meetings in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan, Mr. Ian Wilshaw, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m. Members present: Wafa Dinaro David Bongero Sam Caramagno Glen Long Ian Wilshaw Members absent: Peter Ventura Mr. Mark Taormina, Planning Director, and Stephanie Reece, Program Supervisor, were also present. Chairman Wilshaw informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the City Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and make the final determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If a petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become effective seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission and the professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their filing. The staff has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying resolutions, which the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the outcome of the proceedings tonight. On a motion by Long, seconded by Dinaro, and unanimously adopted, it was: #01-01-2023 RESOLVED, That agenda items three and four be moved to items one and two, respectively, to let the petitioners of the said petitions have a timely meeting, due to a possible lengthy discussion on another petition. Or. Wilshaw: I also want to announce for record keeping purposes, that item number five on our agenda, if there's anyone in our audience, that's here for number five, which is the Hertz Rental facility, they have asked that that this their item be removed from our agenda tonight. They're withdrawing their petition at this time. So, if there's anyone here for that item, you're welcome to stay around January 31, 2023 30731 and watch the other ones, but there will not be any discussion on that tonight. Just so that everyone in our audience understands, I know several of you probably have never been to one of our meetings before, so I want to explain as we go, how the meetings work. We're going to call out each of these agenda items, and once the item has been called, we're going to go to our staff to give background information on the agenda item. They'll just give background on the history of these items and what's been requested. Then we will ask the petitioner to come forward and speak to us and we're going to have some questions for the petitioner. Then we'll have an opportunity after we've had a chance to talk to the petitioner for folks in our audience who wish to speak for against the agenda, to also come forward and speak before we make our decision. So, IT prompt everyone along as we go. That's how our meetings are ran. Let me see, is there anything else that I have missed? I don't see anything else. One other item before we do start into our agenda, I do want to mention is we have an empty seat up here for Carol Smiley, who is a longtime member of the Planning Commission. She has in the last few weeks between our previous meeting and this one, which was a couple months, submitted her resignation from the Commission after 20 years of service on the Planning Commission, and she's going to continue to be active in the city. I'm sure she's watching our meeting tonight, and I just want to acknowledge her many many years of service to the city and to the Planning Commission. She was a longtime secretary of the commission and we really do appreciate her service, her wisdom and all the contributions that she's made. Not only to the community but to each of us as colleagues of her, so we really appreciate Carol's service, and we wish her very very well in her future activities with the city. So, I just want to mention that. (Audience applauds) Mr. Wilshaw: I'm sure she very much appreciates that ovation. So, thank you everyone. With that, we're going to start with our public hearing section of our agenda. ITEM #1 PETITION 2022-12-02-22 Uptown Cheapskate Mr, Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2022- 12-02-22 submitted by Uptown Cheapskate requesting waiver use approval under Section 6.53 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, in connection with a proposal to operate a second-hand store and resale shop at 29508 Seven Mile Road, within the Livonia Marketplace retail center located on the north January 31, 2023 30732 side of Seven Mile Road between Middlebelt Road and Purlingbrook Road in the Southeast'/4 of Section 2. Mr. Taormina: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a request for a second hand store and resale shop at the Livonia Marketplace. Resale shops are regulated under Section 6.53 of the Zoning Ordinance. Uptown Cheapskate would occupy an end unit in Retail Building D which is on the east side of the property directly behind Bank of America. The other tenants in this building include Koney Island Inn and Hibachi Express. The unit that Uptown Cheapskate would occupy is roughly 3,920 square feet. The floor plan submitted with the application shows the interior layout of the space. As would be expected, it includes racks and shelves, counters, and display cases. The store would also have dressing rooms, restrooms, a storage area and an office. Uptown Cheapskate specializes in the sale of slightly -used clothes, shoes and accessories, as well as new apparel. The store operates very similar to shops like Plato's Closet, where individuals bring items to the store that they wish to sell and if the merchandise is worth purchasing, the store gives them either cash or store credit. The Ordinance stipulates that there not be any outdoor storage or display of merchandise, which he Petitioner does not intend to have. Parking is adequate at Livonia Marketplace. And there would be no changes or modifications to the building, other than signage. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read out the departmental correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please. Mr. Taormina: The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated December 9, 2022, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed waiver use at this time. The subject parcel is assigned the range of addresses of #29460 thru #29560 Seven Mile Road, with the address of#29460 Seven Mile Road being assigned to the overall parcel. The existing parcel is currently served by public water main and sanitary sewer, as well as privately -owned storm sewer. Based on the submitted drawings, there should be no impacts to the existing systems as a result of the proposed project. It should be noted that although there is no work planned in the Seven Road right -of --way, any disturbances within the right-of-way will require the owner to obtain permits with the Wayne County Department of Public Services."The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated January 10, 2023, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted January 31, 2023 30733 in connection with a request to construct a commercial building on property located at the above referenced address. We have no objections to this proposal. A further detailed plan review will take place when this division receives an official plan set." The letter is signed by Brian Kukla, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the Division of Police, dated December 9, 2022, which reads as follows: '7 have reviewed the plans in connection with the petition. I have no objections to the proposal."The letter is signed by Scott Sczepanski, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next letter is from the Inspection Department, dated January 17, 2023, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the above - referenced petition has been reviewed. This Department has no objections to this petition." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. The next letter is from the Finance Department, dated December 15, 2022, which reads as follows: "1 have reviewed the addresses connected with the above noted petition. As there are no outstanding amounts receivable, general or water and sewer, 1 have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Connie Kumpula, Chief Accountant. The next letter is from the Treasurer's Department, dated January 5, 2023, which reads as follows: `In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's Office has reviewed the address connected with the above noted petition. At this time, there are no outstanding amounts receivable for taxes. Therefore, 1 have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. And then lastly, we have a letter from a resident dated January 181 2023, it reads: "You have my permission to operate a secondhand store and resale shop at 295087. Mountain Road within the Livonia marketplace I live at 30330 the Vassar street, Livonia, Michigan, 48152. I will not be able to attend the meeting on January 31." It is signed by Roseanne Barker. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Are there any questions of the. Planning Director? Seeing none, the petitioner is here. Please come forward. We will need your name and address for the record please. Angela Moore, 15462 Grandville Ave., Detroit, MI 48223, Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Miss Moore. What would you like to tell us about your business? Ms. Moore: Well, I think that everything was given already about the business. It is a resale, upscale resale store, for men's and women's apparel and accessories. It is a franchise. They have over 148 stores across the US. They're based in Utah. I would be the second, no, I take that back, I'd be the third in Michigan. January 31, 2023 30734 There's one in Grand Rapids, and there's one in Grandville, Michigan and then there's a new one coming in Holland, Michigan, but I'll be the third in Livonia. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, that sounds good. Is there any questions from any of our commissioners for the petitioner? Mr. Caramagno? Mr. Caramagno: I see you've got double frontage. You got frontage on the west side of your location and frontage on the east side of your location. Yeah, well, you only have one entrance. Ms. Moore: Yes, one entrance. There. The back is just the back door, but that's not an entrance for customers at all. Mr. Caramagno: Okay, how about signage? Will you have signage only on the west side or both? Ms. Moore: signage on the front and signage on the back. Mr. Caramagno: So, you will have two signs. And then about your rubbish, put rubbish out back in the enclosure? What will you do with your trash? Ms. Moore: It would be paper trash. There's no clothing trash, but paper trash receptacles? Mr. Caramagno: Will you share a dumpster out in the back? You'll share it with the other users? Mr. Moore: Yes, there is a dumpster in the back. Yes. Mr. Caramagno: Okay. Thank you. Ms. Moore: But no clothing. It's just it'll be paper trash. Mr. Caramagno: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: All right. Any other questions for our petitioner? I don't see any other questions from any of our commissioners? Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against this petition? I don't see anybody jumping up. If you have a question, please come forward. Sir, you'll have to come forward. We do have a TV audience as well. They can't hear you. We have a vast TV audience. It's probably smaller than what's here now actually. Dan Sterling, 31633 Curtis, Livonia, MI It's just a question is I know, a lot of resale shops. They can also turn into like pawn shops where they pledge January 31, 2023 30735 to buy the item or to sell the item back to the person after 30 or 60 or 90 days. I don't know if that was a part of your business pIan. Mr. Wllshaw: Thank you, sir. And what 1'11 do is 1'11 ask the petitioner just to explain her business model a little bit, so it should hopefully answer your question. Ms. Moore: Yes. So, to his question, no, we are not a consignment shop. So, our vendors bring the items in in a bin or like a laundry basket. They're clean, they're laundered, and we go through them to take out the things that we can purchase from them. We either give them cash on the spot, or we give them store credit. Anything that we cannot use or cannot sell goes back home with the vendor. So, it's not consignment. Yes, they are immediately tagged and placed out on the floor. Okay. Mr. Wilshaw: So, you're purchasing those items and then reselling them? Ms. Moore: Yes, they are immediately tagged and placed out on the floor. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for answering that question. Is there anyone else in the audience wishing to speak on this item? I don't see anyone else coming forward. Is there any other comments from any of the commissioners or questions? If not, thank you, Miss Moore. A motion would be an order. On a motion by Long, seconded by Bongero, and unanimously adopted, it was #01-02-2023 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on January 31, 2023, on Petition 2022-12-02-22 submitted by Uptown Cheapskate requesting waiver use approval under Section 6.53 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, in connection with a proposal to operate a second-hand store and resale shop at 29508 Seven Mile Road, within the Livonia Marketplace retail center located on the north side of Seven Mile Road between Middlebelt Road and Purlingbrook Road in the Southeast 'Y4 of Section 2, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 2022-12-02-22 be approved subject to the following conditions: 1. There shall be no outdoor sales, storage, or display of merchandise and no storage of merchandise or other materials in temporary or portable units, structures, trailers, or donation receptacles located on the exterior of the building. January 31, 2023 30736 2. This waiver use is limited to this user only and may be extended to a new user subject to approval by the City Council, 3. Only conforming signage is approved with this petition, and any additional signage shall be separately submitted for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals. 4. That no LED light band or exposed neon shall be permitted on this site, including, but not limited to, the building or around the windows, and 5. Per Section 13.13 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, this approval is valid for one (1) year from the date of approval by the City Council. Unless a building permit is obtained, this approval shall be null and void after the one (1) year period. Subject to the preceding conditions, this petition is approved for the following reasons: 1. The proposed use complies with all of the general waiver use standards and requirements as provided under Sections 13.13 and 6.53 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended. FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 of Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM 4#2 PETITION 2022-12-02-23 Individual Brewing Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2022- 12-02-23 submitted by Individual Brewing Co. L.L.C., requesting waiver use approval under Section 6.09 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, to operate a Micro Brewer license including an on -premises tasting room (1 For All Brewery) at 38083 Ann Arbor Road located on the south side of Ann Arbor Road between West Chicago Avenue and Ann Arbor Trail in the Northeast'/4 of Section 31. January 31, 2023 30737 Mr. Taormina: This is a request to operate a microbrewery including an on - premises tasting room. The location is the Ann Arbor Crossroads shopping center, which is on Ann Arbor Road just south of Ann Arbor Trail. The zoning here is C-1 (Local Business). Brewers, microbrewers, brew pubs, and distilleries are all treated as waiver uses under Section 6.09 of the Zoning Ordinance. Arbor Crossroads consists of three multi -tenant buildings with roughly 23,500 square feet of rentable building area. The shopping center can accommodate 15 to 16 tenants. Existing businesses include Sunny Valley cleaners, Healthy Paws Vet Center, Little Caesars, Livonia Trophy, and Biggby coffee. This site is adjacent to a McDonald's restaurant to the north. Plymouth Woods apartment complex is to the east, and Washing Well Cleaners is to the south. A Micro -Brewer license allows for the production of beer. The beer can be sold to consumers for off -premises consumption, as well as to licensed wholesalers. If the production is less than 1,000 barrels per year, the microbrewery can self -distribute to other retail licensees. Holders of a tasting room permit can sell to customers for on -premises consumption. 1-For-All would occupy a 1,200-square-foot unit in Building A, which is at the north end of the complex. Other tenants within this building include So Moon Bowl and Sushi, Livonia Trophy, and Biggby Coffee occupies the north end -cap unit of that building. Building A is about 5,000 square feet in size. The floor plan shows how the space would be used. There would be three components: a tasting room, a cold room, and the brewery room. Beer would be manufactured, as you would expect, in the brewery room, which is located at the rear of the unit. The cold room would be in the center, which is adjacent to the tasting room. Taps would be installed through the wall in the cold room directly into the tasting room. There would be seating for 25 customers at this location. No food would be prepared on -site, but customers would be allowed to bring food in from elsewhere. The hours of operation would be from 2 pm to 10 pm, Wednesday through Saturday. The facility would be closed Sunday through Tuesday to allow for the brewing operations. There would be a consideration for private rentals on days the facility is closed to the general public. Parking for the shopping center requires 112 spaces. The center currently has 132, so parking is adequate to handle the proposed use. A special requirement under Section 6.09 is that an on -premises licensed establishment cannot be within 1,000 feet of any other such licensed business. There are no other on -premises licensed establishments within 1,000 feet. Another requirement is that it cannot be located within 400 feet of a church, school, or park, which it is not. Thus, the proposed use complies with the special requirements with respect to separation. There would be no changes to the exterior of the building. The only thing would be January 31, 2023 30738 signage, which would be allowed at a ratio specified in the zoning ordinance. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read out the departmental correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please. Mr. Taormina: The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated December 195 2022, which reads as follows: `In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed waiver use at this time. The subject parcels are assigned the range of addresses of #38047 thru #38151 Ann Arbor Road, with the addresses of #38047 and #38133 Ann Arbor Road being assigned to the overall parcels. The existing parcel is currently served by public water main and sanitary sewer, as well as privately -owned storm sewer. Based on the submitted drawings, there should be no impacts to the existing systems as a result of the proposed project. It should be noted that although there is no work planned in the Ann Arbor right-of-way, any disturbances within the right-of-way will require the owner to obtain permits with the Michigan Department of Transportation (MOOT)." The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated January 10, 2023, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request to construct a commercial building on property located at the above referenced address. We have no objections to this proposal with the following stipulations: Provide specifics on processes and quantities produced (if applicable). A further detailed plan review will take place when this division receives an official plan set." The letter is signed by Brian Kukla, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the Division of Police, dated December 19, 2022, which reads as follows: `I have reviewed the plans in connection with the petition. I have the following objections to the proposals. I am concerned that there are not enough parking spaces including spaces that are designated for the handicapped to meet the needs of this business. The parking lot is already small and it will be shared with several other businesses in this plaza. The need for additional parking spaces for both general parking and handicapped parking is a necessity that should be addressed with the proposed business." The letter is signed by Scott Sczepanski, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next letter is from Police Department, Special Services Bureau, which reads as follows: "We reviewed the plans submitted by Individual Brewing Co. L.L.C., requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 6.09 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, to operate a Micro Brewer license including an on -premises tasting January 31, 2023 30739 room (1 For All Brewery) at 38083 Ann Arbor Road located on the south side of Ann Arbor Road between West Chicago Avenue and Ann Arbor Trail in the Northeast quarter of Section 31.After reviewing the plans with the Chief of Police, we have no objections to the waiver being granted, contingent that the petitioner complies with: All State Laws, City Ordinances, Stipulations and conditions set by the Livonia Police Department, Liquor Investigation Unit, as approved by the Chief of Police, Stipulations and conditions set by the Traffic Bureau of the Livonia Police Department." The letter is signed by Jeffrey Ronayne, Special Services Bureau. The next letter is from the Inspection Department, dated January 17, 2023, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the above -referenced Petition has been reviewed. 1. The dumpster enclosure on this site has not been provided since the last waiver use approval on this site. The enclosure must meet the requirements set forth in Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance 10.03(8). Permits and inspections are required for the dumpster enclosure. 2. Signage has not been reviewed for this petitioner. All signage must meet the sign ordinance, or a Zoning Board of Appeals variance would be required. 3. Permits and inspections will be required for the renovation of this space if this proposal moves forward. This Department has no further objections to this Petition." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. The next letter is from the Finance Department, dated December 15, 2022, which reads as follows: I have reviewed the address connected with the above noted petition. The following amounts are due to the City of Livonia: Unpaid water and sewer charges: $ 431.50 Total Due City of Livonia $ 431 .50." The letter is signed by Connie Kumpula, Chief Accountant. The next letter is from the Treasurer's Department, dated January 5, 2023, which reads as follows: `In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's Office has reviewed the address connected with the above noted petition. At this time, there are no outstanding amounts receivable for taxes. Therefore, I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Taormina. Any questions for our planning staff? Mr. Bongero? Mr. Bongero: Quick question, Mark. On the unpaid water, was that from the previous tenant? January 31, 2023 30740 Mr, Taormina: You know, I just noticed that the date on this letter is December 15. The charge was due in August. I don't have the answer. Maybe the petitioner can update us on that. Mr. Bongero: Okay. Thanks. Mr. Taormina: I have not received the report back indicating that it was paid though. We can include that in the resolution. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, thank you, Mr. Bongero. Any other questions for our planning staff? If not, if our petitioners in the audience. Please come forward. Good evening, sir. Please start with your name and address for our record, please. Joe Walters 9262 Knolson Street, Livonia, MI. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Walters. And what would you like to tell us about your business? Mr. Walters: First I'm gonna address, if you don't mind, the water bill. January 6, I actually just looked at ... the landlord sent me the receipt. He paid that bill. Anything additional the...I mean, he read everything. There's definitely a lot more to it. So, I could understand if there were more questions. I did want to mention after last week, it was brought up to me about using the rear door as an entrance as well. I hadn't even considered it really and thinking about it over the last week, I don't think that that's a good idea really security wise. So, I probably won't be doing that. Other than that, I'll look into the dumpster issue as well. I suppose it's a landlord issue, but... Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. There was also a question about the parking for the center, and if it would be adequate for your business. Do you have any comments on that or thoughts? Mr. Walters: I thought the numbers that were read originally were sufficient, saying the parking was sufficient. I believe that's what was read last week, as well as this evening. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Taormina, does that seem consistent from what you've seen? Mr. Taormina: Based on the parking requirements in the ordinance, the amount of parking is adequate. I think .the concern expressed by the police department might have more to do with the layout of the parking lot in this particular part area of the site. As you can see, parking around Building A is somewhat limited, and there are other restaurant users. I think we discussed at the study session that the peak hours of operation for the Brewery will probably not coincide January 31, 2023 30741 with the peak hours of operation with the other businesses, in particular, the Biggby. As such, there's less concern. It's a convenience issue more so than a parking number issue. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. All right. Thank you, appreciate that. Anything else you would like to tell us about the business in terms of the history or what you're gonna do there? Mr. Walters: Well, the history is, basically I was original founding owner and brewer for Liberty Street brewing in Plymouth with five other partners, and it was a bigger, much bigger facility. We did very well, we even did statewide distribution and had a separate production facility in Livonia. That's when like, the kind of the mistake was it kind of got oversaturated with everybody packaging and getting on a shelf. And what I'm basically doing is ... what I've realized is the correct way to do this business is by myself alone, small, stay small. Keep it easy, simple by myself kind of a thing. So that's why there's the limited number of days. Only open four days, but that can change if you know... probably Sundays for football, for instance. But um, that's the whole idea is I'm trying to get back into the industry that I love, doing what I'm passionate about and this is just the beginning steps for it. Mr. Wilshaw: All right, thank you, Mr. Walters. Let's see if there's any questions for you. Any questions from our commission? Mr. Caramagno: Two items forme. I'm glad you decided to not use that backdoor. When I drove through there. Itjust didn't seem like a good idea with the drive thru traffic coming through there and in your bound to have trouble there eventually. Second question is, how much work have you got to do? And when could you open? Mr. Walters: Every brewery that I've been involved with, I always tell the people, s gonna take you twice as long as you think it is, and you're never going to have enough money. So, they're typically six months to eight months if you're really, you know, hitting all the paperwork targets because it's federal licensing it's state licensing, its health department, and city and all the local stuff. So, I mean, it's a lot of bureaucratic to get through to and any delays you have there, I mean, you know ... I would hope six months, within six months after signing a lease. So, not a lot of work. It's the demolition is a little bit, you know, a little bit of work and the floor plan is pretty simple, too. So, it shouldn't take that take too long to have the physical part of it ready to open. Mr. Caramagno: So, six, eight months, you think you'll be you'll be ready to rock and roll. Okay, thank you. January 31, 2023 30742 Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Caramagno. Any other questions for our petitioner? Mr. Bongero: Are you handling the dumpster enclosure or your landlord? Mr. Walters: It's a landlord option. It's in the lease. Mr. Bongero: It's going to be a new one? Is that what they're looking for? Mr. Walters: I think the dumpster is in good shape. It's not enclosed, I believe, currently. Mr. Taormina: Yes. So, the enclosure was not built to the standard that was required when the resolution was approved for the Biggby coffee. There was fencing used instead of masonry, and so we're working with the landlord right now to correct that issue. Mr. Wilshaw: All right, thank you, Mr. Taormina. Mr. Bongero: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions for our petitioner? I don't see any other questions from any of the commissioners? Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against this petition? If so, you're welcome to come forward. I don't see anyone coming forward to speak to this. Is there anything else that you'd like to tell us, Mr. Walters before we make a decision? Mr. Walters: Oh, that's just thank you for putting us up in front. Thank you very much. Mr. Wilshaw: You're certainly welcome. With that, I will close the public hearing and the motion would be an order. On a motion by Bongero, seconded by Caramagno, and unanimously adopted, it was #01-03-2023 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on January 31, 2023, on Petition 2022-12-02-23 submitted by Individual Brewing Co. L.L.C., requesting waiver use approval under Section 6.09 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, to operate a Micro Brewer license including an on -premises tasting room (1 For All Brewery) at 38083 Ann Arbor Road located on the south side of Ann Arbor Road between West Chicago Avenue and Ann Arbor Trail in the Northeast 'Y4 of Section 31, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that January 31, 2023 30743 Petition 2022-12-02-23 be approved subject to the following conditions: 1. This waiver use applies only to the operation of a Micro - Brewery. Authorization to operate any other type of liquor license, including, but not limited to, a Class C, Tavern, or Club license, shall require City Council approval. 2. Customer seating in the tasting room shall be limited to twenty-five (25). 3. The hours of operation the business is allowed to be open to the public or for private events is limited from 10:00 a.m. to 10:00 P.M. 4. Only conforming signage is approved with this petition, and any additional signage shall be separately submitted for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals. 5. No LED light band or exposed neon shall be permitted on the site, including the building or around the windows. 6. Unless approved by the proper local authority, any type of exterior advertising, such as promotional flags, streamers, or sponsor vehicles designed to attract the attention of passing motorists, is prohibited, and 7. Per Section 13.13 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, this approval is valid for one (1) year from the date of approval by the City Council. Unless a building permit is obtained, this approval shall be null and void after the one (1) year period. FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 of Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? Or. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM #3 PETITION 2022-12-01-02 Basilica of St. Mary Or. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Petition 2022- 12-01-02 submitted by Basilica of St. Mary under Sections 13.13 January 31, 2023 30744 and 13.15 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, requesting to rezone parts of the properties at 18100 Merriman Road and 30600 Brookview Drive, located on the east side of Merriman Road between Mayville Drive and Seven Mile Road in the Northwest /4 of Section 11, from P-L (Public Lands) to N2 (Neighborhood) and NM3-I (Neighborhood Multifamily — Maximum 4 Stories). Mr. Taormina: an you, Mr. Chairman. This is a request to rezone portions of the Basilica of St. Mary property, which is located on Merriman Road. The purpose of the rezoning is to construct a one-story educational academy and a three-story senior apartment building. The land owned by St. Mary's totals roughly 21.3 acres and is currently divided into three zoning classifications. The front part of the property, which is about 8.7 acres and includes the Basilica and Cultural Center, is zoned RUF (Rural Urban Farm) and N2 (One Family Residential). The remaining 12.6 acres, which mostly includes the easterly part of the site and the land previously owned by Livonia Public Schools, are zoned PL (Public Lands). Bordering the site to the north are residential properties on Bainbridge and Sunset streets, as well as public parkland, including Bainbridge Park, and Beverly Park. Traversing these properties is a tributary of the Bell Branch, which is part of the Upper Rouge River, and which mostly is undeveloped and contains floodplain. To the east are single family homes that are part of the Sunset Park Subdivision, and to the south is the remaining portion of the Bryant school property, which is still owned by Livonia Public Schools and zoned PL. Of the roughly 12.6 acres of PL-zoned property owned by St. Mary's, the proposed zoning changes would affect 9.2 acres. Of this, roughly 2.96 acres or a third of the area would be rezoned to N2 (Neighborhood) for the academy, and then the remaining two thirds, or 6.24 acres would be rezoned to NM3-I (Neighborhood Multifamily), and that would be for the apartment building. The 3.4 acres located at the far east end of the site would remain under the Public Land zoning designation. Looking only at the N2 rezoning, the proposed expansion of the N2 district follows the outer edge of the parking lot at the rear of the Basilica and the Cultural Center. It also includes a narrow strip along the south side of the property, which is adjacent to the Cultural Center. Educational uses are treated as a permitted use in the N2 district. The academy, as shown, would be about 35,000 square feet located 150 feet east of the Cultural Center. It would encompass a portion of the former school property, as well as a portion of the existing parking lot located behind the Cultural Center. The building would be one level with a maximum height of 36 feet. The preliminary floor plan that was submitted with the application January 31, 2023 30745 shows that the building would contain multiple classrooms and multipurpose rooms, a gymnasium that would have bleachers and a stage, locker rooms, restrooms, storage, mechanical rooms, and several offices. Looking at the proposed NM3-I District, it extends east of the proposed academy and gymnasium for a distance of roughly 723 feet. The NM3-I zoning is intended primarily for senior housing and condominium multiple dwellings. NM3 by itself allows for buildings up to two stories in height. The requested NM3-I classification would increase the allowable building height to four stories. The preliminary plans show one building, three stories in height, positioned in the south-central portion of the area proposed to be rezoned. Overall building dimensions would equal 75 feet by 435 feet. The maximum building height is 48 feet. Each floor contains roughly 32,625 square feet, with a gross building area equal to approximately 97,875 square feet. The building would accommodate 28 apartments on the first and second floors and 30 apartment units on the third floor for a total of 86 units. Materials on the building would include a combination of brick, block, as well as Hardie plank. This is all very early in the design stages. Parking details have not been reviewed at this time. I'll note once again that the easterly 3.4 acres identified on the plans as Parcel 2 would remain undeveloped under the PL zoning classification. The master plan designates the portions of the property that would be rezoned as Floodplain area and Parks and Community. The 100- year flood hazard area extends across the northern edge of the site and the Parks and Community classification reflects the previous use and ownership of the property by Livonia Public Schools. I have several other slides we can show as the as the meeting progresses. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read out the departmental correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please. Mr. Taormina: The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated December 19, 2022, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed rezoning at this time. The subject parcels are assigned the addresses of #18100 Merriman Road and #30600 Brookview Drive. The legal descriptions included with the submitted drawings appear to have a small error on the description of the area to be rezoned from PL to N2. On the Re -Zoning Sketch drawing, the last dimension of the description should be 172.00 feet, not 192.00 feet. Also, the description for the original Parcel 2 is missing a bearing and distance for the easterly leg of the parcel (where the parcel abuts Brookview Drive) on all the sheets. January 31, 2023 30746 The existing parcel is currently served by public water main, sanitary sewer and storm sewer. The submitted drawing do not indicate any of the proposed utility connections or calculations, so we are unable to comment on impacts to the existing systems until design calculations are provided during the design and permitting submittals. The proposed drawings do not indicate any storm water detention which will be required in order to meet the Wayne County Stormwater Ordinance. Also the drawings do not indicate the limits of the existing floodplain and wetlands, which IN need to be located prior to any Engineering approvals. It should be noted that any work within the Merriman Road right-of- way will require the owner to obtain permits with the Wayne County Department of Public Service." The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the Finance Department, dated December 19, 2022, which reads as follows: "I have reviewed the addresses connected with the above noted petition. As there are no outstanding amounts receivable, general or water and sewer, I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Connie Kumpula, Chief Accountant. The next letter is from the Treasurer's Department, dated January 5, 2023, which reads as follows: `In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's Office has reviewed the name and addresses connected with the above noted petition. At this time there are no taxes due as they are tax exempt, therefore I have no objections to the proposal."The letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. Mr. Chairman, I'll note that we received somewhere in the order of 60 letters. The Planning Commission has a copy of all of those letters that have been received up until 4:30pm today. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, thank you. We do have many emails and letters that were received. Those are all on file. We've had a chance to read through those, and they will also become part of the permanent record for this item. So, we appreciate that from everyone who's contacted us. Is there any questions of any of the commissioners of our planning staff? I don't see any questions. Before we get started, I do want to try to prompt our audience through this process, because there are a lot of people in the audience. And this may be a new process to some of you. Many of you attended our study meeting last week and may have heard some of this same speech before, but I want to just give it again for anyone who isn't familiar with how this process works. What we have before us tonight is a rezoning request. The purpose of this meeting tonight is to look at the zoning of the property and decide if the change that's been requested from PL to N2 and NM3 I is something that we approve of or not, in terms of making a recommendation to our City Council. So, we're going to have January 31, 2023 30747 discussion that's going to be mostly focused on the zoning of the property and the use of the property. We're not going to get into the details of the appearance of the buildings, the layout of the buildings, the materials, where the parking lots located. Those types of things, because that comes in a second process called a site plan. So, what we're going to do tonight is talk about zoning. We're gonna make a recommendation of either approving or denying that rezoning request, and it may be a modified request, or it may be the original request, we'll see how things go. That will then be moved on to City Council with our recommendation of either approving or denying that. Once it gets to City Council, they will have that same process to go through and make the final decision on the zoning. That then starts a process as that is happening, of the site plan, and then the petitioner will have to come back to us again, with a site plan for this site. That's where all those details of the building and the materials and the parking and the layout will be discussed and decided. Usually that process involves a lot of modification and iterations until we get to a product that is either accepted or not. Again, we'll make a recommendation on that site plan, which will then go to City Council and the City Council make the final decision on that petition. So, there's several meetings that are going to take place, if you've never been through one of these before. I'm talking at least four meetings in the sense of our meeting tonight for a zoning meeting for City Council. Then it's going to go to site plan for us and then site plan for City Council. So that's the basic process if anyone hasn't been through this and wants to understand what's going on. We're going to try to focus our discussion tonight on zoning because that's what we have before us. So, with that, I'm going to ask that the petitioner start, and we're going to hear from them about their petition and we will have some questions and then we'll give everyone else a chance to talk. Good evening, Father George. Father George, 18100 Merriman, Livonia, MI. Good evening, ladies and gentleman, as I stand before you today, and I like to inform you I am the pastor and founder of St. Mary's Orthodox Basilica started in 1972 on the farm of McKenna land. We came here tonight to ask for a zoning approval. So, our church community and our neighborhood will grow to accommodate children in the Montessori School, in a family and youth center and also have a place to house our elderly. We're not building nursing home. We're not building an assisted living. We are building a three- story building. That's what the land can take. We don't have any more land. The school is still on. I think there is some acres. We are here to work with the city and with the board, and whatever it will make us in our neighborhood are happy. If you have any January 31, 2023 30748 question for me, I'm willing to answer, but I've been in this room, so many time to always ask for permission, and we will not violate whether you approve our zoning. We will come back. If you don't approve our zoning, we will also come back because we want to make sure that we still are on Merriman Road. Our congregation is growing. We're one of the largest churches growing in the City of Livonia, and as you see the basilica stand there, it's one of its kind in America. We have a wonderful conversation with our neighbor yesterday, and we will not violate any one rules or orders. A citizen is someone who loves not only himself but their neighborhood and if we are to preach anything, we are to love our neighbor and we work for our neighbor. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you Father George, is there an additional presentation that you'd like to make? Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, can I get your name and address? Ghassan Abdelnour, JV Associates Architect, at 24001 Orchard Lake Road, Farmington, MI. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, sir. Mr. Abdelnour I just want to just start with thanking the Planning Department and for helping us through that process. Mr. Taormina was helping us through come in submitting all these drawings. Give us the advice to see where we're going with this project and going through the whole steps for this project. I just want to add a little bit about some of the meetings what we had yesterday with the neighbors with the board and Father George and Father Jim and a lot of questions were asked in this meeting. I mean, everybody was asking about the environment. Are we touching any trees? Are we touching any floodplain? Are we touching any wetland? There was other issues. The height of the building? Are we doing four story? Are we doing three story? There was different issues about circulations and patterns for the site. What about engineering and about some water, where the drainage is going? I just like to kind of give some ... we didn't start with this study yet, but we are, I mean, I worked with the City of Livonia, maybe with over 40 projects. So, we know that the City of Livonia is not going to give us any permit unless we meet all the codes, the requirements for the county, for the city and for the state. So, once the reason why we didn't have our civil drawings done because in rezoning they were not required. That's why we didn't submit them. But definitely, like you said in the Planning Commission, when we come in front of you for the Planning Commission, and I'm a member of the Planning Commission in West Bloomfield for 13 January 31, 2023 30749 years. So, I know what its needed, what its required, and now we're going to make the city happy and our board and especially our neighbors, that we want to tell them that this project is to meet all the codes and requirements what the city tell us, and there is no permit going to be taken unless all these permits are approved and we meet with the requirements of the whole neighborhood and the city. And just to kind of give you a little bit idea about the way we design the site land... we're not talking about Planning Commission's and site plan approval right now. But we like to say that we trying to stay away from any wetland, from any floodplain and from any environmental issues and the design that you saw on the site plan. Some questions came out. Are you doing underground detention or above ground detention? We like to work with the city and the neighbors. Originally, we thought that above ground detention is good. It's a nice water that it's good to be nice space is better environmentally, but if the neighbors think that we do have issues with above ground detention, I talked to Father George and the board, and they said, even if we have to do underground detention and make the neighbors happy, we can work with it. So, we are here actually what I'm trying to say, we try to work with the neighbors. We try to work with the city, and we try to make everybody happy in the process. It's a church been there for 50 years, and I think, I hope, it's gonna be for another 100. And most of them... a lot of the people who goes to that church there, they live in Livonia. I mean, we love Livonia, we work with Livonia, and Mark has been friends for so long, that he helped us through the process of different projects and hopefully, we're gonna do the same thing and this one, and we want to make sure that whatever you ask us to do, we're willing to work around our projects, and the advice you give us to make it happen, we're willing to work with you and make this process going in the right direction. And if you have any questions, please ask me and I'll answer any. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for the information on the meeting that you had with the residents yesterday. That's helpful to convey that. We'll see if there's any questions for you. Is there any questions from any of our commissioners on this project? Mr. Bongero: Good evening, I was able to attend the meeting last night, and I thought Father George and his team did a great job. It's a shame that not everybody could be there, because it was a good chance to get some one on one. They made a very good point to address anybody's questions. Some people had multiple questions, concerns, and they didn't answer them the best they could, and if they didn't know the answer, they promised they'd get answers. So, it was very good. I appreciate you doing that. My only January 31, 2023 30750 question was, on the retirement building, have you considered going two stories? I know it's gonna take more of the footprint. But... Mr. Abdelnour Can I answer like little bit of that question? The reason why we started with this building, and we do have some elevation already drawn for the building. If we go to the midpoint of the roof, it's only around 38 feet. And typically, I don't know if Mark can help us. In regular houses, usually the midpoint, you can't exceed 35, so really, we're only missing what 20 feet if you put the building next to a regular house. So, we're trying to work and we can work with the pitches of the roof and we can make it look neat as we climb it as we can, but let me go back to the two story... the two story, if we do two story, we're going to have ended up pushing the building a little bit further, I think to the east, and we're trying to stay within the area we working with. Our setback now from the building to the property line is 500 1 think 20. To the nearest house on the east side is 650 feet and if you go to the north side, with the closest house were around 460 and to the property line we're 220 feet. So, we try to make the project a little bit more compacted. Closer to the building, closer to the church, and not... because the minute we go with two story, I'm going to be extending a lot more because that's the reason really why we went and we did the two story trying to kind of save the property have more green area on the site and trying to make the project a little bit more compacted. Really that's how the whole thing started. Mr. Bongero: I understand that. With the Montessori School, I think that's what you're planning. What are the ages for that school? Father George: The Montessori School is one to five years old and we have all parishioners and non -parishioners that attend the school. Mr. Bongero: I think you also said at the meeting that anybody can use the gymnasiumA Father George: Yes. The gymnasium came to be many years ago, when we attend many public hearing. The public school was in dire need. We do host all public school sport activity in our cultural center. It's almost as a good neighbor. And they are in need of a gymnasium. We have our use and if the city... any school would like to use it, it's more than welcome to use it. We don't have anything that is forbidden to use from anyone. Mr. Bongero: And the same applies for the retirement. January 31, 2023 30751 Father George: Yes. Mr. Bongero: So, timing wise, I think I heard you last night, you're thinking, three years from now, Father George: It depend, the process takes along time. As we get the zoning, then we have to move to the second step. Then the third steps, and this is will be all private funding from the church, from the parishioners. Where people who already pledged the money, because they want to see their parents be there, the neighborhood is there, the children is there, the church is there. Things are changing a lot in our society, and we would like to maintain some kind of semblance to keep the family. So, it might be two and a half years, three years, we might begin building the school first and the Family and Youth Center, but as we prepare for the soft cost, maybe we can do it all together. Mr. Bongero: I think you're projecting $30 million? Father George: 25 to30 million. Mr. Bongero: You think it's gonna take two, three years to raise that? Father George: No, we already have pledges close to 10 million, and the bank promise that when we have at least 20% of the funding, we will begin. We're not going to raise... all churches don't pay their mortgage, right away. Churches in the long-range plan... we're not in business, so if ... we will do whatever it takes to make it easy, so that we have few banks who said, we will fund the project, we need maybe 15 20% down. Mr. Bongero: Okay. So, depending on how this goes tonight, if you got approval, you're going to get immediately working on the site plan, architectural renderings, so that everybody here can get a chance to see them, right? Father George: Absolutely. It's our neighborhood, okay. And it's my neighbor and I've been there 51 years when Merriman was one lane. Or, Bongero: Thanks, father. Father George: Thank you. Or. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Bongero. Any other questions our petitioner? January 31, 2023 30752 Ms. Dinaro: Can you tell us a little bit more about that? What is your plan to engage the community if zoning is approved tonight? What plans do you have to engage the community and... Father George: I want to apologize for one thing. I meant to engage the community six months ago, but I'm getting old and I'm sick and we had so many interruption, we lost so many people who died with the COVID, the deacon, many of the founders of this church, but whatever you advise us to meet on a monthly basis. I am ... the church is open. This is not the first time that the community came. When the school system was going through all this change, our facility was open for the public to meet with no charge. We give them refreshment, no entertainment, but refreshment and coffee. So, our place is open to meet anytime, whatever it takes. No one should live in a place feel unwanted. This is our neighborhood. And they are all wanted. So, the next step before we go to the city council, we will have another meeting. I told them yesterday, we didn't have all the answer, you know, how was the floodplain is going to be and if we're going to charge for counseling or not. But once this process move, we will find the answer together. Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions? All right. Thank you. Any other questions from any of our other commissioners? Mr. Caramagno: Good evening. Tell me how this comes together where you want to do a the Montessori as well as the multifamily housing. How... who makes that decision? Is there a board at the church? Who makes that decision? And how many people are on the board that... Father George: We have parish council that has a team. We have the members, the chairman, the Treasurer, and we have a Maryim Center committee that's made out of businesspeople in the community in the church. And we have... they are set up. So, we came with this plan to answer the need of our church community in our neighborhood. We have every day people call they said you know my mother is looking for a place to live. Can we... is there a place for rent? What would we do with our parents? We're not a throwaway society. Then, also to have the Montessori school with the Family and Youth Center, the Family Youth center will be for the family of Livonia. If you go to the court in Livonia, you find judges sometimes, and they have no place to send people if they need marriage counseling. So, it came up to be a perfect package. Now how it's gonna be, what's the charge, somebody asked us for a sign, we've never had any sign. We don't advertise. It's a word of mouth. From if somebody needs a place to live January 31, 2023 30753 somebody and fit in and meet all the criteria 55 years and older. It's not for youth to live in that place. Mr. Caramagno: So with this board that you've got together and a group of leaders in the church, how do you come up with close to 90, the need for close to 90 units? What... Father George: 86 units only because what ... this is what the architect said, that is what the land can take. Mr. Caramagno: Okay, so what is the demand? Where's the demand for 86 units? Father George: I have already 70 widows in our church. Or. Caramagno: How many? Father George: 70 widows. The founders of our church, those who own all the businesses in Livonia many years ago, they're dying out. I was the youngest member of that community 51 years ago, now I am the oldest. So, it is the need and wherever you need, you read about the need for place for senior housing. Or. Caramagno: So, the need is based upon your math of the 70 widows, or the architect that you said said you can build 86 units on this property. Which is it, one or the other? Father George: Really, it's both. It is what we can accompany and what we can accommodate, because we don't have the land. If Livonia Board of Education will sell us more land, that will be even great. Mr. Caramagno: You're getting into my next question now. So, thank you. So, you're trying to maximize the use of this property and I think that's why many people are here tonight. The concern would be and my thinking that it's oversaturation of housing on that piece of property surrounded by residential land now. But let's go back to what you were saying that they'd sell you more property, are you saying that you'd, you'd petition to put up another apartment there? Father George: No. But we will have maybe a different space. We will have more space for gardening, more space for the cultural, more space for education. More space ... we are locked in. There is one way you will go into our property and our Maryim Center, and there is no exit anywhere else except our property. Mr. Caramagno: I'm familiar with that. Thank you, I would ... we'll listen to some more, but I would tell you that I'd be more supportive of a single January 31, 2023 30754 story, more of a neighborhood network there. Even if you had to have more property, and perhaps the math doesn't work for that, and that's probably why you're going up, but that's kind of where I'm at now. That's the question I had. One of the other questions ... we'll get this out now. What will be ... what would prevent the church and the board from building this apartment and then selling it later to an apartment management company? And then the church wipes their hands of it and has nothing to do with it. What would prevent that? Father George: Our constitution in the church, prevent selling any church property and to give it to a to sell the apartment that will be in violation of our Constitution? We want to maintain to serve the community, not only one year, two years, but as long as we are in this life exist. Mr. Caramagno: Okay, so you have a constitution that will prevent you from ever selling any portion of the church property? Father George: Right. We are not in business to invest. We are in business to serve the public and serve our parishioners. Mr. Caramagno: Okay, thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Mr. Caramagno. Any other questions? Mr. Long: So, as you reviewed the demand for this, you talked about 70 widows that you have and people within your, your parish, is there some kind of preference that would be given to current members for this facility? Or is it first come, first served. Father George: First come, first served. Mr. Long: Okay? What percentage of your flock is Livonia residents? Do you know? Father George: Maybe 50% of our parishioners live in Livonia? And they have businesses in Livonia. Mr. Long: Okay. And then you, you want to do the school as well. And that's what's in front of us is both? Have you considered doing one? Or do we need to take both at the same time? If we, you know... do you need both in order to make this work? Can you talk about that? Father George: If you address the issue totally, it makes for a better plan for the future. So, at least me, my parishioners and the community are January 31, 2023 30755 assured what's gonna happen. According to the plan of the city, nothing can violate the ordinance of the city. So cost ... we might start building the school, and the Family and Youth center, and maybe in the last stage after two, three years to build the housing. It's all depend about the approval. As I said, we are not going anywhere. This is our home. Everybody should understand that. This is our home, our base. We've been here. We're the oldest, one of the oldest churches in Livonia and we are one of the most growing churches in Livonia. We feed the hungry, we clothe the naked, we raise fund for the poor, so, it's not only about us, it's about our society. Mr. Long: I guess the last question that I have for now, and I think I want to hear what a lot of people have to say or what all people have to say and want to speak, but you mentioned to Mr. Caramagno, that it's in the church constitution that you cannot sell this property. Father George: Yes. Mr. Long: But just kind of playing that forward, if hard times came along, I mean, what? What does that mean? I mean, if the church were to ever fail, then what happens then? Father George: Our church historically in America, never failed. business failed, family failed, but the church never fail. God in its midst, and it will not be shaken. We could have moved to Salem Township, but we are where our parishioners at and that's why we are successful. The greatest danger in the world is misinformation and labeling people and this is something we do not want to cross. We want to be within the law of what our right and our neighbors, right without violating anyone. The church cannot sell any property. Historically, if you look in the last 50 years, there is not one Orthodox church that was sold. And even though the neighborhood changed, people move away, but they still come back to their church. Thank you. Mr. Long: I appreciate that. I guess you know, I've seen the church that I attended as a youth in Detroit growing up that stayed in there, the neighborhood turned over and there was a lot of different people that moved in and the church went on for a while, but then eventually that sold. It wasn't attracting to the to the people who were living there anymore, so that's kind of my concern. I understand your point, though, and I agree with you that the church doesn't fail, the business fails, but I'm just trying to play that forward and envision how this unwinds. January 31, 2023 30756 Father George: One of the reason that you're building this school, and the Family and Youth Center, and a place for the seniors, is to keep the church alive and the neighborhood alive. If people moved away, things will die out. Do we need to repeat what other did? For 51 years, we came to this body, and we work with the city government about everything we did and we will do to keep our family and our neighborhood in tact. If people moved away, and there is no need that to visit my mother, and to have my child in a daycare, orto have my family and youth center for even a sports event, your people will go away. But we're not going away. Mr. Long: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Long. Mr. Bongero: Just one quick follow up, I think to Mr. Longs point, you would not consider going for one zoning for the school and at a later date coming back for the retirement building? I guess that's what kind of what the question was. Father George: I mean, it does. What difference does it make? We are...we keep our word. We keep our promise and we're working with you. So, what difference does it make? It makes it easy for us to have a master plan. If you have a master plan, you know where you're going. Mr. Bongero: Maybe you just kind of start with one and see how it goes. Father George: Well, the building we will start with one. We're not building everything in one time. But I would appeal to you that the zoning has to be for everyone, for everything. But it's all up to you. Mr. Bongero: It's not up to me. Thank you. Father George: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you Mr. Bongero. Any other questions from our commissioners to our petitioner? If not, I do have a couple of brief questions. I generally don't ask a lot of questions for those in our audience who don't normally watch our meetings because I'm supposed to be running the meeting, but I do have a couple of brief questions that are more procedural, and it really is a spin-off of some of the questions that you've already heard. I just want to make sure the school itself, the Montessori, is there going to be any limitations on who can attend that school? Father George: Absolutely not. January 31, 2023 30757 Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. And will that school be run by the church or will it be run by an independent organization? Father George: By a committee in the church. We have St. Mary's Academy's Board of Director and they are the... one of our principal of it is a parishioners who specialized in Education approved by the state and the city, and so it's not leased out or anything else. Mr. Wilshaw: So, the educators will be employees of the school through the church? Father George: The principal, and the director are member of the church, but we do have other teacher who are not a member of our church. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, and they are just gonna be employees? Father George: And they worked with us. Yes. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay and similarly with the independent living facility, I heard. It sounds like that's going to be the same criteria. The only limitation is going to be 55 and older. Father George: Yes. Mr. Wilshaw: No other limitations on income or any other...? Father George: No, because it's private and it's not a public funding. It's private funding. It's not a section eight building, it is you submit an application to the management and if you meet all the criteria, and you pay the rent, you're in. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, and similarly, the independent living facility will be a property of the church. It will stay a property of the church and the employees who work there will be employed by the church. Father George: Well, we have always the principal director will be from the churchI because every one of these building has its own committee. I cannot run and be there for every committee, but the Maryim Center committee, they will have to hire a management company that understand. I've enough problem, hearing people complaining about my sermon, let alone dealing with rentals and collect the rent. Mr. Wilshaw: Right. All right. I understand. Thank you, father, George. With that, I think we've exhausted all the questions from the January 31, 2023 30758 commission. So, this is the opportunity for people in our audience who wish to speak for against this petition to come forward. Because there are so many people and I know there's gonna be so much interest in speaking, I do have a few rules that I would like to set for this evening so that we can make sure that everybody gets an opportunity to speak. Starting with the fact that, obviously, we'd ask that everyone please be respectful of everyone else's views. I appreciate the results so far tonight at the meeting. People have been very good at listening to our petitioner and respecting his views. I would ask that they will do the same for you and listen to your views and respect those. I would not like to hear any heckling from the audience, or any comments being made from the audience out loud, because those will not be picked up by our microphones and can also slow the meeting down. We're going to ask that residents comments be limited to two minutes so that we give everybody an opportunity to come up and speak and not be here until 11 or 12 at night. If you have a particular person that is a representative of the community, or a subdivision group, or something like that, that wants to come forward and give a more in-depth presentation or has something prepared we are willing to extend that for those people, obviously. Let's see. What else do we have? You can come to either podium to speak. I will ask that our petitioners sit down for this time. Father George: You want me to stay here? Mr. Wilshaw: You can sit down for now and we'll listen to the residents. For the residents who have never spoke here before we as that you please address us and not the audience because the meeting is for our purposes tonight. We want to hear what you have to say. Any questions that you ask please ask them of us. And anything that is asked the petitioner will be listening to those questions. And when they when we're done with hearing from all the residents will have an opportunity for the petitioner to come back up and address some of those questions. And yes, definitely, everyone please start with your name and address so we can attribute your name or your comments for the record. Steve Johnson, 18240 Sunset Street, Livonia, MI. Our family lives adjacent to the north of this property. Our property line is going to be 200 feet away from this apartment back here. I purchased the home and our property from my father's estate about 15 years ago. Immediately after that, after I moved in, I started hearing loud sounds that I located was the St Mary's Cultural Center. From their website, it says St. Mary's was built and open for business in the fall of 1991. We can accommodate a group from 500 or 50 January 31, 2023 30759 to 500 people. We are a full -service banquet hall. This building is clearly not used for church purposes exclusively. A number of folks here tonight have been to different events, and they have no affiliation with the church and yet it is not zoned commercial. As other banquet halls in the city are it appears to be zoned RUF (Rural Urban Farm) and it certainly is not located in a commercial area, as other banquet halls are required to in the City of Livonia. I have given the Planning Commission tonight an article by Brad Newman from the Michigan State University, entitled How to spot a spot zoning. It explains how spot zoning is illegal. Although PL (public land) to N2 (Neighborhood) where the school would be may does not meet the four criteria required to be identified as spot zoning, public land to NM3 I (Neighborhood multifamily up to four stories) clearly fits the definition of spot zoning in this case. Perhaps this is why the Planning Director Taormina last week, when asked about going from public lands to this four-story said that he could not recall any other instances in the city. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Johnson, the two minutes is up if you could summarize, please. Mr. Johnson: Okay. As of today, there are over 450 persons who have signed an online petition against this rezoning. If the property remains public lands, we would like to work with the St. Mary's to turn this beautiful area into a nature preserve and leave a legacy for our children and our grandchildren. Because the future is now Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you very much. Good evening, ma'am. Amelia Wilkie, 31716 Curtis, Livonia, MI. It also an architectural designer. So, I know my way around these things. In Livonia there's approximately 16 assisted living and living senior residences, which include independence, so there really is no need for an additional independent senior living facility. So, I really questioned having a separate building for a gym and a Montessori school when other churches have a culture center that includes banquet halls, classrooms, and gyms, such as my church in Southfield and how doing that would save the church money, which right now, they propose $30 million for their plan. It's an unnecessary amount that they don't have at the moment. and there's other ways around this. Thank you. Colleen Badgero, 17415 Sunset Street, Livonia, MI it's about afive-house trek towards the fields where this is being proposed. This land that was purchased over the years by St. Mary's is serves a vital environmental and quality of life functions for us in its current January 31, 2023 30760 natural state. It's a low elevation area of land that collects and absorbs a significant amount of water from precipitation. As we discussed earlier, there's a portion that is floodplain designated and with increasing storm patterns and heavy rains in recent years, building a large structure and impermeable parking lot services would gravely affect the stormwater management in this area. The loss of open land with native plant species growing and absorbing the water will cause runoff to the remaining school owned land and surrounding neighborhood. The outline of whatever water retention system is in place doesn't appear to be accommodated in the scope of these plans that have been presented so far. So, flooded yards, and basements place residents at risk for quality of life, financial and health problems down the road. Sending the water to the creek isn't a great solution either, because this creek already has levels of chloride, aka road salt, that are considered toxic to aquatic life. The stream quality has a reading of very poor from samples analyzed by Friends of the Rouge organization. So, adding more salt and chemicals and other pollution by bringing this many people and their cars and their waste into this environment is going to create further damage to this water system. We need to be reversing damage not adding more, in my opinion. My biggest concern is the zoning to the N2 for the community center. I can see how that fits in the master plan and in this neighborhood, but the housing is not compatible with the surrounding neighborhood as outlined in the master plan. So, that's all I have to say. My daughter is here and would like to present if that's okay. Mr. Wilshaw: She is welcome to. Ms. Badgero: She has the same address as me. Mr. Wilshaw: Very good. Thank you Ms. Badgero: Do not take our meadow. First, me and my friends absolutely love riding our bikes there. Second, you'd be practically taking many children's happy place. Third, I wouldn't feel safe walking school by big buildings and parking lots with lots of people where it used to feel like the safest place in the world to me. Fourth, people's backyards could be flooded, because when it rains, huge puddles form there, but when you build buildings there, there'd be no room for those puddles, so they'd be forced away into other people's backyards, and they will start to flood. I may be a kid but I'm more powerful than you thin, aAnd I care about the future. I love playing in nature and I hope that one day my kids will have places like this to explore and play. Please don't approve the rezoning so the land can be protected once again. Do not take our meadow. January 31, 2023 30761 Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Thank you, sir. Kevin Skylis, 30528 Jeanine Street, Livonia, Ml. I have some questions. I also wrote a letter in opposition. So, questions for the commission. How does this not constitute spot zoning and if so, is spot zoning considered an acceptable practice for zoning Livonia? Secondly, what safeguards are there to ensure that the senior residents will be used exclusively for seniors? How does this align with the Livonia Vision 21 Master Plan? And then if there's no precedent for this, which seems was established last week, then how can you assess the impact on the neighboring communities? And then maybe more of a question for the petitioner, but why should the neighboring communities believe that you'll engage with us when the first meeting with the community was after you had already submitted the petition? Mr. Wilshaw: Is there anyone on this side wishing to speak? I want to try to alternate. Good evening, ma'am. Margaret Rudis, 31038 Mayville, Livonia, MI. Our backyard faces the field. We've been there 31 years, and I also want to address the concern with flooding. Some years back, the school had done some resurfacing with some dirt in the backyard, and it really worsened the flooding that we already... we get some soggy grass, we've learned to live with it over 30 years, rainy seasons. But they did a small change with some dirt out there and was like, wow, this is the worst flooding we've ever had. And the butterfly effect. I can only imagine that what that would be doing with parking lots and all that... that yes, it would have an impact on flooding in my backyard and all of the surrounding areas. Also lighting. They built that garage for storage back there, and it's just this spotlight. We practically can see a shadow standing in our living room. I'm not, I'm not making that up. If you're standing there, the lights are out. It's so bright. If they do do this, concerns about lighting, aim things downward. You know, traffic, all the other things. But the letter that was right at the beginning had me nodding my head that yeah, because they said about the water and the flooding and all that that first letter that was read. I guess I'm done. I just wanted to throw in my two cents of that. Yeah, we're really, really concerned about this and that it hasn't been addressed the water than all the other issues. And also, if there is approval, I love the idea of maybe start with the school. Do you have to approve the whole thing? See how that part goes. The school and the gym. That's more reasonable than the whole thing all at once. So please, if you are going to approve this, maybe just do the first January 31, 2023 30762 part and then maybe down the road, they could come back and ask for the other part. Sounds reasonable. you. Thank Mr. Wllshaw: Thank you. Emil Ancholouni, Farmington Hills, MI. I hope that that will allow me to speak. Mr. Wilshaw: You're welcome to speak. Mr. Ancholouni: I want to address the fact that Father George talked about is the community and how we support our church and how we want to live and grow in the future. I married a young lady from Livonia, Churchill High School. My in laws live in Livonia. My brother in law's both live in Livonia. I've been a member of St. Mary's Parish for 37 years, ever since I moved to Farmington Hills. It is part of my existence. One of my sons has just got engaged, he's going to be married at St. Mary's Church, and I hope that someday I'll have grandchildren that will go to St. Mary's Church. So, I'm talking about the fact that the community is growing. I was one person, and now I have a family of 10, 12, maybe 15 grandchildren someday, I hope. And so I'm looking for the future. I'm also 63 years old. And I'm looking at this 55 year apartment residency as a way for me to, to live my sunset years, so that I can be close to my church, close to my community, and be able to experience the community support that I've had my whole life. That's really all I want to say I but I do think it's very important that the whole master plan be approved now because I'm planning for my retirement and for my life. And I would really like to know that our church is on solid ground when it comes to the master plan. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, sir. Good evening. Bill Parnis, 31005 Mayville, Livonia, MI. I think Father George is a good man and I think he sees things as the glass half full and maybe not recognizing the glass half empty. I have to view it that way. I want to be charitable. I can talk about specific issues, but really what it all comes down to for me personally is a matter of trust. I've lived for 24 years on Mayville Street. There's been a number of events put on by St. Mary's. I know they go to the city and ask for approval, noise variances and so forth, but yet, despite whatever the approval is, then you know, a half hour after the music is still playing. And so, for me, these are small issues, and we just ignore them because it's just a weekend or a week, but this is not small. This is permanent. And I really... it's a trust issue for me that all these things that have been said, are they really going to be held to or not? And that is really where my concern is as a neighbor. Thank you. January 31, 2023 30763 Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Susan Chavey. 31412 Curtis, Livonia, MI. 1 live directly across the street from the church. I've lived in Livonia...I actually knew Father George when he moved. We were neighbors then, and I can one up him by saying Merriman was a dirt road when I first moved in there. Seven Mile and Farmington were two lanes. Anyway, I have known Father George, watched him build an amazing church, an amazing community. And always with open doors. He's helped me personally; he's helped my family. He's allowed us, even though we're not members of church, to bury both of my parents at the Basilica. He is a man of his word. When you talk about trust, he will work with you if you need. If you have a question, go to him. I talked to him recently about lighting when I heard this was coming up. And he's been calling me what are the concerns? Can you come over and tell us. We'll have an electrical engineer work with you because I am affected by the lights. I mean, I live directly across street, but I have watched him build this community. I've watched him follow through. He is an honest man, and I don't know what else to say. I watched the basilica be built. Everything was according to city guidelines, according to what the city requested. He is a man of his word. He is honorable. His church has open arms. I think if you ever needed something and you approached him or actually tried to talk to him directly, you would find that, you know he would work with you, he would be willing to work with you. So, I encourage you guys to be open about what's going on and trust that the city will require what's necessary for this project to move forward. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for speaking. Darlene Wood 30527 Jeanine Street, Livonia, MI. I got a couple of questions. First one is what's to say that say that the church can't change its constitution and then sell the building outright at a later date. There's been a lot of articles in the paper recently about population declining especially youth. People aren't having as many children. So, therefore, the school might not flourish in years going on. They had a groundbreaking ceremony in November and that was even before the petition was presented to Livonia. So, I'm not understanding quite how there's this situation where they're being open and honest. I do have an amended petition with 467 signatures from the one that I had recently submitted. I was hoping that I could give that to you today. January 31, 2023 30764 Mr. Wilshaw: You can hand it to miss Reece and she'll put it in our file. Thank you. S. Wood: And the number... and the number of signatures are growing. But we'll leave it at that. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Good evening. Julia St. Peter, 18276 Bainbridge Avenue, Livonia, MI. We are the last house on the street. Obviously, my husband and I are concerned about environmental issues, because we're the last house on the street. But the two things I want to ask you is first, maybe to postpone, maybe rezoning, just until we hear more about what their plans to do with the pond and with everything so that way, then the neighbors will all know what's going on, and I for one, feel comfortable about that. The second issue that hasn't been talked much. I've worked in many senior homes as a history and there is a drop off where the creek is at and no one has addressed that and I know it is an independent senior community, but my concern is if someone's deteriorating with their mind, what's gonna stop them to go off, because I don't want them to fall or get hurt or anything like that. So, I'm just concerned for seniors that way, but I'm sure the facility would be beautiful, and all that jazz and it is their land. So, I know they have their right to do so, but I, for one, just want more detailed plans before proceeding forward. And that's it. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for coming. Laura Burke, 30573 Brookview, Livonia, MI. I did write something because I can go on and on and on and hearing father and all these other neighbors of mine.... again, I could go on and on, but before I go and read my prepared speech, I do want to say that I have no reason to doubt anybody's words up here, but I am the one house I believe, other than Mr. Johnson, that actually touches the property. I'm at 30573 Brookview. I am not even on there or on the petition that you guys have. Okay. So, my fence line is the property. Okay. We and I will first say we have gone to weddings there. We have gone to showers there. I have gone to all my kids sporting events there. We have spent money in the beer tent that my husband loves father, for the festivals. We have riden the rides with the kids. We enjoyed the fireworks. We even had a party for the fireworks in our backyard. My house is perpendicular to the structure, not the school, but the actual apartment structure. So, I feel a little dismayed when I see people walking my line, putting pink ribbons on my fence line and many neighbors coming up to me, someone's been here and January 31, 2023 30765 somebody's been there, and so I many times called the city and I think I spoke to you Mark, and I said is there anything going on, because I see that they're having a groundbreaking. Nothing that we've heard of is what I was told. And then somebody else said something ... sent me a...I get things in my mailbox about this. And this is how I heard these things. And that is really, really bothersome that I had to call and call and call and then when we called about the ... we got this message that it was in the free press about the hearing. And I said what hearing? I'm so close, why haven't I gotten it? And that was a mistake and they didn't send them out and that's why this was proposed to have it on the 31 st. So, I'm just saying I have nothing against the church. We've been there since 1984. Okay. And this is my ... what I actually wanted to say the reason why I am opposed to the rezoning is quite simple. There are two and three stories, senior living structures up and down Middle Belt, and a newly built complex across from the fire department and the police station that is very beautiful. As I have also gone and looked at. There are a few on Seven Mile between Merriman and Farmington with an apartment complex on the corner of Seven Mile and Merriman. All these places, and I'm sure I can mention several more across the city that I'm sure you get the idea. All of them fit into the area that they are located. The structures are located amongst other buildings and businesses. This proposed three story structure does not fit into the surrounding area, which is a single-family home situation. I am in a neighborhood of over 400 single family homes. For a three-story structure to be there changes the whole aesthetics of that subdivision. I will say this does not just change the aesthetics of my home. I am perpendicular, so I am I am fortunate enough even though I'm sitting very close to the parking or to the property that when I sit on my deck, and I'm washing my dishes and I'm sitting in my den watching TV, I'm looking at the beautiful lawns of all my neighbors. That is not the case for the people on Hillcrest or Mayville. They will sit on their deck and look at that structure. Mr. Wilshaw: Ma'am. Ma'am, ma'am ma'am, can I ask that you summarize? Ms. Burke: I'm going to summarize right now. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Ms. Burke: If I ever thought of something being built on that field, which we expected from time to time, I mean, my husband and I are not ignorant. We figured something was gonna go down. We always thought it would be with the aesthetics with single family homes. I have no problem, I have no issue. Some people may, I don't having somebody's house right next to mine. That's what January 31, 2023 30766 neighbors do. That's what neighborly things are done. I understand that. But I never thought it would be a three-story structure that we have to look at. I totally sympathize with everything that they're talking about the old people. I took care of my mother. I have been taking care of her. I don't have other people changing their aesthetics to take care of my mother. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Ma'am, you're welcome to speak. Good evening. Nadia Helenia, church member. I have been with this church since the beginning. Actually, I'm one of the... my husband and I were one of the founding fathers. Father George came to us in his early 20s. He baptized my five children. He also baptized my 13 grandchildren, whether they live in the state or not. I've been living in Livonia for 43 years in Sheffield. And I would like to move back to Livonia in our new Marian center to our new Maryim Center. I always was begging Father George to start this thing here. Our church does nothing but good in Livonia. I'm sorry, I'm a little nervous. We spread love, we spread hope, we spread gratitude. We spread... the Bible teaches us love thy neighbor. We never, we never aggravated our neighbors, whether in our home, in our businesses, or definitely not in our church. I would really, really like to have this project go through. Because like I said, it's not just me. There's a lot. I've been a widow for 35 years. I was widowed when I was 47. And I'm begging for somewhere like this where I could walk to my church. That's all I have to say. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening, sir. Greg Yon, 30562 Brookview, Livonia, MI. I live right next door to Mrs. Burke. So, she's not the only one that the property touches. I am the neighbor along with Mrs. Burke that is at the dead end of Brookview. We were talking earlier about notification and all these other things. Most of these people are here because they just found out about this the other day period. I've lived there for 20 years, and not once was this mentioned to the members of the community that already occupied the outskirts of this property that's zoned for public land. I really have a couple points to make here. Sorry. But first, I'm going to read the term elderly housing that we've been talking about tonight, because it's right in the petition that was submitted to you guys, and the term elderly housing refers to a building or a group of buildings that provides housing in which at least 80% of the occupied units are rented, at least to one person over 55. So, anybody else in that apartment does not necessarily have to be 55.and this is an apartment. The other 20% of the occupants can be anybody. So the term elderly January 31, 2023 30767 housing allows somebody that's under 55 to move into that building, unlike what we've been being told here tonight at this articular juncture, Secondly, you brought up a great point earlier about dividing this into two sections. That property up front was zoned for a school back in the early days of Livonia, it was Bryant Junior High when I moved in. That property has since been torn down and sold or kept by the school board. That property is zoned for some type of an educational facility. The back land on this property was always public land, zoned for public land. This is a high density building being built and land that was designated for public land. And should we create an apartment complex here? Is going to set precedent for other properties in this city. When somebody comes in and says, I have an idea, or I have something I want to do, and nobody else around them knows anything about it. This is elderly housing, one person, and you guys should know this because you saw the petition. We've been throwing that term around all night. And that's the true term and that's written right in this petition. Now, I understand you guys don't make the law but this ... to throw this to the City Council, and force them to get in all kinds of accolades and battles at this point for two separate issues here, a school up front, and a high density apartment complex on public land before everything has been studied and accurately portrayed, would not be a service to the City Council either. So, this is two separate issues. The front and then the housing, and nobody wants to come home and stare at an apartment complex. We have seen all the lighting, heard all the issues from all the residents, and when you're that person in that backyard or that resident with the information that we received a day ago, we've had no opportunity to look at this or come together with the Planning Commission. If it wasn't for two people that called on January 4, we would have never known about this because those petitions were not sent out. It was a supposed an accident that these came out or were not sent out, and then everything was pushed back to today. This was supposed to be done on the 17th. We never got our letters on top of everything else that's been said here today until two people discovered it. Had those letters not been sent out., and none of us showed up. I'm not really sure how today would have went because there would have been nobody sitting here because nobody knew about it. Mr. Wilshaw: All right. Thank you, sir. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening, sir. Brad Garrity, 30810 Bobrich Street, Livonia, MI. I was born in Livonia. I grew up in the house I live in now. When I bought a house, I bought one on January 31, 2023 30768 Dora street, just south of Seven Mile, same square mile, and then when we had more money, and we were gonna go buy a new house, we actually bought my parents' house and spent all the money we had and the money we're still making to stay in this neighborhood. I have played in that field. That field is part of our community. I love Father George and the whole thing. We got married at St. Mary's Cultural Center. This whole thing is already part of our lives. I don't live on Mayville and I don't live on Bainbridge, so I don't deal with the lights. Thanks, guys, for blocking those forests. But I'm raising my kids here. We play in this field. I don't want to look at an apartment building. Part of the reason we bought here is because it is residential housing. That's what we have. I don't have my ducks in a row. This is an emotional plea. This is part of our lives. Love these people. They've always they're great. Love the whole thing. We don't know about this, and nobody wants to look at it. I don't want to look at it. I want to keep walking my kids through this field and playing in the woods with them. That's what I want to do. Michael Coliton, 31193 Bobrich Street, Livonia, MI. I live approximately 500 yards in direct line of this three to four story massive complex they wish to build. I bought in this neighborhood there was Bryant school there. I bought a house by a school with the gymnasium. They tore it down. But I will tell you this, we welcomed Father George into our neighborhood, they're part of our community and to find out nine days ago that they want to build a massive structure right by our homes without even consulting us. We came to their events, we supported them. We did all of this, all of these people here because they love Livonia and they appreciate what you guys are doing. We respect, we respect the church there be at best medical is beautiful. So, all I'm asking is this I understand there are two lots. One is for both requesting zoning. It would make logical sense for two things. Number one, if you wish to consider approving the zone for the school for the gymnasium, I bought a house buy one I really don't have like the stand that makes a lot of sense. Number two, I would welcome a conversation in depth with our community with the parish and your members. So, we can agree to work together as part of community to help build father towards dream, help build our community along with your great Christian values you have. Does anyone argue with that? That's what we want right? Give us the time, please. I'm asking you to deny this zoning request for this massive complex. Give us the time to work together as a community as you wish us to. Right? Aren't we Livonia? They are too. Please deny that second request and please let it give us the time to talk and work together. Thank you so much, guys. January 31, 2023 30769 David Wido,30889 Mayville, Livonia, MI. Most of what I'm going to say is really... already been said, but, you know, this is the first time that I've attended, you know, one of these Planning Commission meetings. That's why it's very important, right, to myself, my family, you know, my boys. You know, and I'll echo some of the other comments, right, just about notification. I have a neighbor, actually tell me and I go and start searching online and find some documents, find a groundbreaking, right, that's kind of appalling. My understanding that Mayor was there, right? How does that work? So anyway? But, you know, so to kind of go through some of these, right, you know, 80 apartments, right? How are you going to shuttle... how are you going to get 80 apartments worth of people and cars in and out of that facility? Right? Their driveway is not going to support it? Right. You know, we've had people already talked about stormwater retention, right, where we all live in Michigan, it's bad enough as it is without, you know, businesses building up and, and, you know, sealing the ground from being able to absorb the water. You know, as mentioned, right, three stories don't match the neighborhood, right. It's, it's a single-family home community, you know, and I asked the commission to deny the request. So, thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for coming. Good evening, sir. Evan Lindman, 18736 Hillcrest Street, Livonia, MI. I want to challenge the commission to think about what were thinking about tonight. I didn't know about this petition and what their you know, zoning until probably three or four days ago. I live very close to the church, and I own and operate a lawn care business, and let me tell you, what they're proposing is going to be a disaster to the houses and the river and the stream, the woods all around what they're trying to do. It is not a ... come on, let's be honest, this was a church, that could have the courtesy to being truthful and honest to send out more letters to the surrounding community but what they're actually you know going to do is ... we actually need to think about this and quite honestly, the church is beautiful, but if you put a school and a giant apartment there on Merriman that's a big eyesore for people who are driving by and for the people all surrounding there, though to this is a field for people growing up and I would challenge you...I don't... it's apparently... it's supposed to be in apartment complex for the nuns and you know, the nuns there. I would question how many people actually, like, live in Livonia that go to their church and I don't even think their church is actually thriving as well as they're on putting off though too. So really, think about this. We need to think about where we're thinking about this. Don't push this through tonight January 31, 2023 30770 Or, Wilshaw: Folks, let's not let's settle down everyone. Let's give this young lady a chance to speak. Sandra Lung. I have been in Livonia for over 52 years. I actually went to Bryant and I realized that a lot of things going on in complexes but if the church really won the school be realistic. They would have bought the church the school 20 years ago. I am not trying to be mean, but I see ... I face where... right by Laura, right on Hillcrest facing the church. I love seeing the church. That's my sunset, the happy place. If that is blocking my view, and I can't see what's you know, I love the scenery. Not only you see me, the wildlife, the river, all these creeks that children go through. My biggest concern is the Mayville where there's a dead end. I see children going through how are they going to get to school? If they have these elderly God knows what they're going to be like? They say they're gonna be screening. But this is... be realistic. This is a new world. People are dangerous and we are on a dead end street on Brookfield and to help these children come through passing through their creek. Crossing the bridge go into Coolidge. This is a big concern for me. I love these children. I don't want them to be, you know, attacked. You know, this is a real world that people, children are dropped off on the dead-end street, they go to school, I watch them go to school every day. You know, that's my biggest concern. And not only this complex, you know, this the water like, environment that's really bothering me. Because when the floods come up the river goes up to that, that bridge level, I've seen it. And it's actually overflowed. So, I feel sorry for Sunset because I was gonna buy on that side, and I didn't because that flood zone. The water was going constantly I did not buy on that side. So, I feel sorry for those people on that dead end on that side. Thank you. Okay. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for your comments. Good evening. Tricia Woodland, 31079 Mayville Street, Livonia, MI. I'm not here to degrade the church or Father George or any of that stuff. I'm just very concerned about the three-story apartment building that they want to put up. I don't feel like it fits in with the neighborhood. I feel like I've lived places where there have been empty fields and they typically always get filled up with housing. And so, we can't necessarily expect that field may remain vacant, but if it's going to be filled up, it needs to be filled up with similar structures. Regular housing. The other thing, just as an aside is if this is going to be an apartment building for elderly people, it seems to me that elderly people do much better if they don't have a lot of stairs to go up and down. And so, it's a little... it's just weird to me that you would want a three story apartment building for elderly January 31, 2023 30771 people when they're better on on main level flooring. So that's my comment. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for coming. Good evening, sir. Mr. Wilshaw: Please want one moment. Everyone please quiet down. Thank you. Hatham Fakhouri, 34820 Fairfax Drive, Livonia, MI. Without being said. I mean, the Basilica of St. Mary brought me into Livonia15 years ago. I brought my parents into Livonia. I brought four of my brothers into Livonia, I brought my in-laws unfortunately from Kentucky into Livonia. Mr. Wilshaw: This is a recorded meeting, you know, Mr. Fakhouri: Edit that out... No, but in all seriousness, I thank the community for all of the concerns. I mean, I think it suffice to say many of the concerns are fear based concerns. Right? I mean, some of the concerns as far as who's going to be coming into Livonia are similar to the same type of remarks that we heard from similar members of the community 51 years ago when the basilica wanted to break ground in the City of Livonia, because they didn't want our type to be in the City of Livonia. They didn't want Mr. Wilshaw: Please, everyone, please settle down. Mr. Fakhouri: Thankfully, thankfully, thankfully, the number of individuals who echoed that sentiment were few. And the greater Livonia community was an open arms community. And since then, the Livonia has welcomed us and welcomed many from our community, and I'm talking about the Orthodox community into the City of Livonia, who have lived here who have started businesses here, who have thrived here and who've been active members of this society. And just like that, we have to look at the future of who's going to be coming into Livonia and who's going to be participants of Livonia. At the same time, who's also going to come back into Livonia. I know that two of my parents are both elderly. One lives in a senior living facility right now that he does not like. My mother who is going to be going into a senior living facility. My mother-in-law wants to be going into... these are people who want to be coming back into the City of Livonia on top of the economic benefit that's going to be happening... on top of the involvement with the community. I think there's gonna be many benefits with this development and I appreciate a yes vote on this zoning board. January 31, 2023 30772 Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Thank you, sir. Paul Condon, 31115 Hillbrook, Livonia, MI. We are directly across the ditch from the proposal. Just a couple of questions, technical questions, maybe if you do pass the rezoning tonight. And during the future steps of this process, the project is next to expensive they don't get the approvals whatever. Does the zoning stay as you rezone it, or does it revert back? Mr. Wilshaw: It stays? Mr. Condon: It stays okay. That being said, if I had just bought, I don't know, maybe $200,000 worth of property, couldn't get it rezoned the way I want it to and needed it, I would then probably try and sell that. I don't know that the church would have any value in a big piece of property that now they really can't build on. So, I wonder how that situation would possibly develop. Also very concerned about the runoff like many of our neighbors. I do want to try and be respectful of the fact that a property owner has within certain guidelines that are being established here, the right to do with their property, they put the money up. If we wanted that property, we probably should have all got together chipped in and bought it, but we didn't. We never had a chance obviously well as a true or not. So, the rezoning would stay with the property? Mr. Wilshaw: Correct. Mr. Condon: With the rezoning and stay with it, okay. So, someone else then could come in and do something different, obviously. Okay. very good. I was just curious about how that process works. So, thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: You're welcome, Mr. Condon. Good evening. Nancy Ghannam, 31335 Rayburn Street, Livonia, MI. I'm also the parish council president at the Basilica of St. Mary's and a few people have said some kind of insulting things regarding the Basilica. So, I'd like to address them. First of all, I want to apologize if anybody was offended by our groundbreaking. That was done as a ceremonial event. We all understood that we did not have anything approved and we weren't putting, you know, a building up. It was done ceremonial to celebrate our 50th anniversary, to celebrate Father George's 50th anniversary as a priest and his 50th wedding anniversary. It was done because our bishops and our hierarchy was here, it was completely ceremonial. It wasn't done, underhanded, conniving, or anything else as people have tried to imply this evening. So, I do find that insulting. Number two, the January 31, 2023 30773 senior living center that is being built. That is proposed to be built for the parishioners in our church that want to be there and it will not be exclusive to them. They want to be there because it is next to the church. They don't want to move to another facility. They want to be able to walk to the church, when they get to the point where they can't drive as many people do at that age. They want to be able to walk to the church, they want to be able to walk to the activities that we have in the church. Every Wednesday we have a group of ladies that that meet and put together our bulletin. They have senior activities; they have senior luncheons like Mrs. Hannah Nia said they are anxious to live there. If there are other facilities in the area, they probably won't move into those they are anxious to move into the one that will be adjacent to our church. When that is built, and we have our seniors living there, it will bring people into the area, parishioners back that want to take their parents out to lunch, they will then be frequenting the restaurants in the area that want to take their parents shopping that want to take their parents to all the other stores in the area, it will bring more economic growth to the area. The issue of the water, we are going to be residents of the area as we are building a building there. So, we will be affected if we don't take care of the water. So, if there's groundwater, if there's runoff, we are going to make sure that all of these issues are addressed as we are going to have a building in that area. We have our church, we have our offices, we occupy that area, we're not building it and then leaving, we're there. So, we need to make sure that that will be taken care of so the issue that all these people have spoken about will face us too and we will address it. Anytime... Mr. Wilshaw: Can you summarize, if possible, please. Ms. Ghannam: Yes. Anytime that we have been addressed to any issue that has come to Father George's attention where a neighbor is upset about something, immediately I get a phone call, we must address this issue. So, people here are speaking that we are the worst, as if we are the worst neighbors ever. If the music is too loud, we lower it immediately. Have we made mistakes? Absolutely. And I'm sure everybody else has. We follow the noise ... we have a permit, and we follow it. Has it ever been left on longer? I'm sure it has, and we apologize for that. And we're always working. Sometimes the person in charge doesn't know when the noise permit. We are not perfect. We're also group of volunteers that run the church. We're not paid employees. So, we do make mistakes. I ask that you do approve this project in its entirety as it relies on each other, and one more thing I'm sorry. People keep talking about the three-story building. I don't think they paid attention to what Mr. Abdenour said. It's three feet January 31, 2023 30774 higher than a two-story house. So, they're talking about it like it's, you know, 50 feet higher than a normal home. It's three feet higher than a two-story house. We need to keep that in perspective, when you hear about the building, thank you. Mr. Wllshaw: Folks, we need to keep the meeting moving. So, try to keep the clapping down a little bit. I understand that you want to show your appreciation for the comments, but keep it brief. Please, sir. Ray Riza, 30537 Brookview, Livonia, MI. Two houses from the dead end on the field. First of all, ma'am, you're insulted.... Mr. Wilshaw: Sir, sir, please address us. I don't want to get into a debate back and forth between people. Mr. Riza; We were insulted that we found out two days ago. We were insulted. Congratulations, Father, George, on the 50 years of great work at that church. You don't celebrate with a groundbreaking and a shovel with the Mayor. You celebrate with a party and a celebration, not a groundbreaking. Second of all, I don't think it's been addressed, and I sent an email to the commission, so this is all verified information if you want to go to the email. A 17.9% decrease in home value on a home within 1,000 feet of a senior home development in the short run. These are all facts. Now I'm going to reiterate a lot what that's been said. I will be staring at a three or possibly four story building because it is going to be allowed, if it is allowed to go up to four stories plans may change. I'm not stupid. I know that that field should have been developed a long time ago with single family homes like mine. Now my single-family home, I'm going to sit there and look at a basically commercial building. No, I don't want that and I don't want a 17.9% decrease in my home value all of the sudden. So, I just wanted to address that. All of the other stuff... The church has been wonderful. They do wonderful things, but numbers don't lie. Kathy. Plotzke, 30549 Jeanine, Livonia, MI. First, I want to say that I'm a little upset that I just found out about this three days ago as well, didn't have a lot of time to do research. The research that I did do though, was in regards to the Livonia Vision 21 Master Plan, and what I found throughout that, there are several subcategories that go speak directly to maintaining open space, maintaining green space, and a couple of them the sustainability and resiliency once the goal of conserving and restoring open space waterways, trees, parks, trails, open space states, they want to develop maintaining and preserving of open space green space. Subcategory, Parks and Rec encourage the preservation of open January 31, 2023 30775 space and in addition the public surveys that were done in this master plan talks about the residents wanting to keep parks, green space trees, single family neighborhoods, and they desire the preservation of natural spaces. Get into another portion of the housing development in the Master Plan, and it says that the recommendation is to seamlessly incorporate multifamily units into the neighborhoods, and that new housing should be encouraged to be located close to the street with prominent entrances facing the street residential in scale, and with parking street parking available. It appears that none of this is consistent with the vision 21 plan for Lavonia. So I'm going to ask that because of this flying in the face of Livonia its own Master Plan that this petition is opposed. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening. We'II start with you. Margaret Yon, 30562 Brookview, Livonia, MI. And it would appear that the last lady and I both wrote exactly what we were gonna say so I'm not going to reiterate everything she said. But Livonia Vision 21 is about community and family. Community we are welcome to support. We are welcome to be here with the Basilica. Maybe work with them see something that might compromise both. When we bought this house it was a single family neighborhood, single family homes. That's kind of what we envisioned would go in that field at one point. Another issue that I have concerning with is the last stormwater management drainage was in 2002. At the time, it was known that the infrastructure for Livonia is subpar. Actually, aging and being right on the creek, I can sit in my backyard, watch the storm water raise four to six feet with rushing water. That is not going to support the extra concrete that this project is bringing in. So, you know, if you guys are really really in support of Livonia Vision 21 you're on board with the city I urge you to decline at least half of this project. Thank you. Robert Hoekstra, 30564 Jeanine Street, Livonia, MI. Directly adjacent to the field. And I'll be very brief because I just want to make one point. I want to implant in you with respect to the intent of this meeting tonight, which is the reduction of even any square inch of public land in Livonia. I deem is completely unacceptable given families first since 1950. Public Land is precious. Any reduction of it to me is unacceptable. I am asking you to oppose this project. Or, Wilshaw: Thank you, sir. Ms. Skylis, 30528 Janine Street, Livonia, MI. My home is kind of adjacent to the field. So, while my home doesn't...l'm sorry. Can you guys hear me now? January 31, 2023 30776 Mr. Wilshaw: Yes. Ms. Skylis: Wonderful. So, my home does lay adjacent to the field, it doesn't back it directly, but when we look out of our back door, or out of our second story window, we are able to see the field. It's over to the left of us. I do have concerns very similar to everyone else's who lives in the area. The main one will... actually there's two main ones, any type of negative impact when it comes to flooding in our neighborhood, as well as the marketability and value of our homes if we were to sell our homes anytime in the near future. And even after that, not in the near future, because I have a very hard time believing that people who live up to this area want to look out their backdoor to an apartment complex, a large parking lot, and potentially any other structures that could potentially be built in the future if the church did choose to purchase more property in the future. Those are all current concerns mine. I would also like to bring up the fact that, you know, one of the church members brought up love thy neighbor is a Bible verse, I believe. I'm not well versed in the Bible. However, I will say, I don't see that happening here. It's offensive to me that the church took the time to have a groundbreaking ceremony, and while I understand that Father George was ill, for six months, at least that's what he said during the, I believe the study hearing last Tuesday. I find it hard to believe that there's time to schedule and attend a groundbreaking but no time to inform your neighbors about what's going on around them. I don't get it. So just to piggyback off that real quick. I know I'm over time and sorry, but I've only been here since 2021, and the church has already left a very bad impression on me personally, as a neighbor. The music during their some summer festival, the bass is so loud that people's homes vibrate. When I call the police, over 30 people had called before me to complain about it and the music did not subside and I want answers as to why neighbors are not taken into consideration then. But now we should take you consideration now. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening. Austin St, Peter, 18276 Bainbridge, Livonia, MI. The north side of the proposed apartment buildings. I just feel that the justification to going from this special two- story to three story to even possibly four story, the justification was just stating that they believe that there will be like want for that. I just want like a more proposed like a more documented explanation that it is needed to be a three story and unless it's not then we can stay at the two story so I suggest postpone this until the that's verified that it is needed to be 89 January 31, 2023 30777 units or so. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, thank you, sir. Christopher Martin, Livonia, resident. My parents had been here for quite some time also, both in the Navy and World War 11. Bought in Old Rosedale Gardens in 1947. Grandfather and Grandmother had also been in the cit. Paid a lot of taxes over the years. My taxes went to buy that... put a school up over there. Then later on was taken down. This is still public land. I want it to remain public land. Put a park there. Name the park after whoever they want. It's public land. Father talked about some type of constitution. I carry this with me. It's a little tattered. In my pocket, Constitution of the United States. We're not some third world country. You guys have the opportunity. Keep this public land. That's what it was zoned and that's what it was designated for. Don't change it. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening. Jamie Jeffries.17551 Hillcrest Street, Livonia, MI. I want to read a letter on behalf of my mom and me. Mr. Wilshaw: You're welcome to. Ms. Jeffries: Okay, it's written from her perspective. My name is Sally Jeffries. I bought my home at 17551 Hillcrest street in 1994 and have lived there the past 29 years. The side of my house and backyard are adjacent to the walkway to the field, and my backyard has the full view of the field. When I purchased my home, there were two things that were important. Living in the City of Livonia and the view of the field. I chose to live in Livonia because it is one of the few remaining cities that actually cares about their residents. St. Mary's proposed plans seem completely at odds with Livonia's usual posture of looking out for its residents. To my surprise and dismay, and extreme disappointment, there was no heads up or advanced notice given to any of the residents about the proposed plans. This is particularly concerning with respect to the rezoning for the apartment complex. In fact, many of the residents who live on the field including myself, have recently remodeled or invested in expensive upgrades to their homes. If I had known that there could be an apartment complex in my backyard, I never would have done the upgrade. I am especially anxious that the apartment complex will devalue my home and property value and make it difficult for me to sell my house. The proposed plans will adversely affect the residents life as follows: 1. The traffic. We don't know whether now or in the future the property owner may construct additional driveways or private access roads in order to January 31, 2023 30778 facilitate bringing more traffic to the site. Even if its not the case, I'm worried that there may potentially be additional daily traffic created by the school students, families, staff, visitors, delivery vehicles, etc. Although I've been told the school will serve students aged one through five, I do not know how many children will be enrolled so I cannot tell what the school's traffic will be. However, regardless of the school's impact, I expect the traffic will increase exponentially from the apartment building with many dozens of drivers to and from the building, residents work cars, moving vans, daily deliveries of all types from furniture to Amazon packages, creating even more substantial traffic volume. The noise inclusion of the apartment building will greatly increase the noise level of our peaceful neighborhood. 3. Light pollution. The field is currently dark at the night behind the house. The lights of St. Mary's complex shine very brightly year-round. These buildings are more in the corner but impact the houses near it with their lights. The three story apartments and the parking lot, however, would put so much more light into the entire field that all the residents would need to purchase blinds likely. Flooding, as has been mentioned by many people. Environmental impact and the field availability .The proposed development will disrupt the neighborhoods and my 29 plus years of enjoyment and use of the field for exercising, taking your pets, and to conclude, besides describing how this will negatively impact my neighbors and me, I wish to bring to the Planning Commission's attention that the proposed uses in the field rezoning approval of today's meeting appear to be something of a bait and switch from the representations made in the 2018 Purchase Agreement, The Purchase Agreement provides intended purpose of the premises proposed by purchaser being used by a senior center Senior Centers are commonly understood to be entities that provide supportive services to the elderly and are also so defined in Section 321 of the of the Older Americans Act. The operation of a senior center does not equate to the construction of residential dwellings. At the Planning Commission meeting on Tuesday, January 24, a member asked where else in the City of Livonia has rezone public land for apartment housing? The answer is nowhere. In other words, there's no precedent for such an action. For all these reasons explained above, I urge the commission to not break precedent in this time so that my neighbors and I can continue to live in the tranquil neighborhood where we currently reside. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Jeffries. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening, sir. January 31, 2023 30779 Alex Villaro, 17415 Sunset Street, Livonia, MI. My wife and I both were born and raised in Livonia. We were confused for a few years and moved into the city. Now we're back. Moved back in 2017 and the main reason was we wanted a quiet suburban community. So, we moved in, we love the field, love everything about it. So, bear with me. I'm not a public speaker. I'm a construction worker. I did some quick math, and I listened to everybody speak tonight and I got a couple of concerns. The one was the water. That's a big field. There's 36 acres left, on the south side. All that topography flows north to the creek. If this rezoning goes through, with that proposed development, that's a lot of concrete going in blocking that view or blocking that flow of rainwater. Right now, they're proposing about 1,600 feet, leaving 400 feet left on the east end. That's a ton of water that's going to get trapped in either... be stagnant on the LPS property or back up even further into the neighborhood. That's a major concern for me. We met with the church yesterday, they were very respectful. I appreciate it sincerely. They didn't have an answer for that. They said they would work on it. This is what I do for a living. That's gonna be very hard to tackle without regrading the LPS property which I don't think you're gonna let them do. Another concern. You mentioned engineering had no comment on utilities and I didn't hear anything on traffic. Can this area in Livonia support that? I think this whole idea of denying or approving is premature. I think it needs to be delayed until more studies have been done. Which is my next point. When was the last wetland study done? Why is it that as an issue in front of you to make this decision. This is a big decision. You can't go back once you make it. Let's make sure we put everything in front of us that we need to make the right decision. Char Baringhouse, Livonia resident. My family and I are proud parishioners of St. Mary's Church. Our church families started out 50 years ago meeting our new young priest, a newlywed, sent to help us from a parish. We rented space from various local churches, then we're finally able to build our first modest church, which is now attached to the cultural center, where many have attended events and sampled the hospitality of our dedicated staff. Our leader and visionary, Father George, saw a beautiful basilica within our means, and as a parish we worked hard together to bring this dream to fruition, but that is not where the dream ends. A community where one can worship, gather and grow on in years was part of the vision that we've embraced and planned for. This land was purchased many years ago with that dream in mind. We have come far and set our sights on the beautiful Maryim Center. This project is well thought out well planned and in keeping with the high standards that we have set forth for every part of our St January 31, 2023 30780 Mary's campus. As we all know, our senior citizens are the backbone of our community, and they often need additional assistance and services. Building a senior center and the churches vacant land would be a great way to provide these services. The senior center would provide a place for seniors to socialize and take part in activities that will help keep them active and engaged. This would also provide a great opportunity for the church to give back to its local community by providing a much - needed service. Not only would this senior center be beneficial to our seniors in our community, but it would also bring economic benefits. A senior center could provide jobs for those in the area, and it would also increase foot traffic in the area, which could bring in additional business for local retailers. I hope that with your support, we can build a future for generations to come. Change and growth is sometimes difficult, and we acknowledge and understand that some prefer to see the land remain in its present state. While that is not in keeping with our proposal, we are committed to being good stewards to our neighbors and the Livonia community. Thank you. Larry Nasser, Farmington Road, Livonia. First of all, let me thank the board for the work you do. I know sometimes it's very challenging, and this probably time is one of them. And I would like to thank also the audience, everybody who attended here tonight to express their feelings and their concerns. I am a parishioner of St. Mary's. My father was one of the founders of St. Mary's. I've been in Livonia for 63 years. Also, many of them that are here opposing were supporters of mine, when I ran for school board, and I was on the school board. And so, I have a lot of love and affection for everybody in this room. And I'm hoping that we can at some way, come to some kind of agreement where everybody can live in peace. If there was some miscommunication or no communication on behalf of our church that some of the neighbors felt, we do apologize for that. I would be more than happy to intervene as a facilitator to get them together. Many of them that are here know me from the board as working for the community and working for them. So, with that, I would like to say a little bit more about who we are. And we are the teachers, the doctors, lawyers, Para pros, janitors, veterans. Our St. Mary's consists of all these people. I was born and raised here, as I said, and attended the first Cooper school that was on the corner of Middle Belt and Ann Arbor Trail. It was a Little Red School. Probably most of you don't know it, if you haven't been there that long or attended was Little Red School and it only had five, six rooms. It was very small until they built a new Cooper, which I was the first class at that new Cooper school there. That was down Ann Arbor Trail. My wife was also a resident of Livonia, all January 31, 2023 30781 of her life, she graduated from Churchill. We raised our two kids here who graduated from Livonia Public Schools, from Franklin. We will most likely die here. You know, it's funny because at my age now I see that there's less in front of me than there was behind me, and so when I think about those things I think about all the things that are going on in our nation and in the States and of course the great City of Livonia here, and as I age, I pray that my health will stay good and I hope to live in my house as long as possible. Most likely at some point a home will be too much for me and I'll need some kind of assistance. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Nasser, if you can, please summarize. Mr. Nasser: Okay, so I just I'm hoping that the board will come out in support of this. It is something that we do need. It's something that we have been looking at for a long time somewhere to go with our elderly people. One last thing I want to comment on is that when I was on the school board, one of our big challenges was declining enrollment. We had declining enrollment and for every student that we lost was $1,000. And then when we had declining enrollment, less money coming in, we had to cut programs and we had to cut services. It was terrible. It was really bad. It caused a lot of people to start moving west to Northville Novi schools. Father George had mentioned about 70 people, some of the elders that... and 50 of them I know are here in Livonia. Those widows, if they would be allowed to move into a place like this, would give 50 homes for single family for young families that are coming to start new homes and have kids and it will support the school system, which is very important. The school systems talked about less than it should be. It's very important aspect. That's why many of us are here, lived here, stayed here. And generations stay in the same house for many years for many generations. So, I hope that the community can come together see, I know it's difficult. There was always difficult times closing schools. You all remember that and all the other things that had to happen. So, but in any case, thank you very much for hearing me out and I hope that the whole community can come together on this. We shouldn't, be something that parts us, hopefully something that brings us together in some way, shape or form.. Or, Wilshaw: Understood. Thank you. Good evening. Mary Garrity, 30810 Bobrich Street, Livonia, MI. I just want to say that our neighborhood is also filled with a lot of great people, policemen, nurses like me. Doctors, lawyers, were a great bunch of people too. So, just throwing that out there. And also, Livonia also has a Master Plan. I'm gonna read it. It's in my email that I emailed you January 31, 2023 30782 guys but I'm going to read it and I'm going to have a little bit to say about it, but it literally says Livonia Vision 21 Master Plan. First of all, let's see, develop and maintain comprehensive park trail recreation, fitness and sport facilities and programs. The rezoning This is my part would limit public access to frequently used trails and open space for recreation and fitness. Next thing, preserve and or incorporate natural drainage and floodplains wherever possible into park and recreation sites. My rebuttal is allowing for building here would not preserve this natural drainage and floodplain land and would prevent public use and enjoyment. Lastly, because my email was 20 million pages, develop, maintain and preserve sufficient open space and recreation facilities to fully satisfy the wide variety of recreation needs of residents. My rebuttal is this is one of the few public open spaces that is conducive to recreation, like flying a kite with your kids, remote control airplane, walking your dogs, going on a nature hike, like my husband said, you know, seeing the deer Please vote no. Mr. Wilshaw: We did get a chance to read your emails. While it was very well written. I appreciate that. Thank you. Good evening, sir. Mark Vines, 30547 Bobrich, Livonia, MI. Good evening. Thank you for letting me speak. Thanks for your work tonight. I'd also like to thank the Brookwood Estates committee for doing great job. I was part of that group who had no idea that this was happening until just a few days ago. I would like to say, and I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I would like to say, Father George, we haven't met, but I respect you very much and I respect your congregation, and I respect what you're trying to do. You mentioned that you love your neighbors and I do as well. As far as the environmental concerns, people have talked about that tonight and have said, I think a lot of given a lot of valid information about that, and I think that the committee should really consider that information. What's, you know, we've had some very talented people getting information, I think that really needs to be considered strongly. As far as having a senior facility, I can tell you that my wife and I took care of all four of our parents. I'm not saying that we were perfect. I'm not saying that. We did the best we could, and with that being said, it would have been nice to be able to walk out my back door and take mom to church or any of those kinds of things, but in certain cases we didn't have that we weren't able to add on an adjacent building for my parents, and I understand the want to, but I'm more about the need to and there's a lot of good people out there that need help and they can get the help with the withstanding infrastructure. So, with that said, thank you. January 31, 2023 30783 Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, sir. Marlon Hanstad, 30546 Brookview Drive, Livonia, MI. My close neighbors are right with me here tonight as well. A couple of things I want to address. 1. Constitution. I'll get back to that one. The other thing is, a little bit of our story, not to bore you, but this is our story. We were first married 42 years ago lived in Livonia. We left went to Plymouth Canton area, grew the kids up there. We always said there's no better city than Livonia, Michigan. And we came back six years ago, kind of planning out where we're going out into the golden sunset of retirement. We said we don't need this large house. We don't need it. We're gonna sell and go back to Livonia. We bought a ranch there right on Brookview Drive just six years ago. Now I'm getting this thrown at me. And my value is going to drop unbelievably. It's been stated here 17%, after six years of being a resident here again. It's not as friendly if this is zoned. It's not as friendly as the towns I thought. The other thing is this go back to constitution. I can speak from experience. I was on the Board of Directors slash elder board of the largest church in Detroit metro area located out off on M 14 in Plymouth, Michigan. We change constitutions a couple of times within the couple of terms I was in. So, don't tell me they can't not resell it. They can change the constitution to resell it. They can do that. If it's an internal board, which my assumption is it is. That's what it sounds like. That's my concern. I stand here my wife, Susan 30546 Brookview Drive. We vehemently oppose this zoning. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening, ma'am. Amy Bonser, 17525 Hillcrest, Livonia, MI. I attended the study meeting last week, and I've been listening very carefully at both meetings and I'm hearing some discrepancies and what we're being told about the three story complex. Last week, we were told it was going to be independent living, yet a lot of the members of the congregation have spoken about how they want to have a place for their parents to age and get the assistance they need. So, will this be assisted living? Or will this be independent living? They are two very different things. Assisted living is a 24/7 operation with lots of staff, lots of cars. There's already going to be a myriad of parking spaces and dumpsters needed for the space. So, I just would like some clarification on that. I am highly opposed to any form of the senior living. I would welcome a school. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening. Laura Cattaneo, 17474 Doris, Livonia, MI. What that woman just kind of brought up is what I've been hearing again here right now. And that still January 31, 2023 30784 gives me pause. I mean, we all have emotional feelings about it right now and no one is trying to criticize or critique anyone or say they're not loyal. They're not Christian. They're not caring, but it comes down, I think, to black and white. And tonight, it seems like there's too many disparancies, too many discrepancies It really has to come down to very black and white when you make these decisions. Not about our feelings or anything like that. I mean, you have to know what you're going to do with this land. It has to be given. We understand we want to protect their seniors; they want this for them. It's very emotional right now. And I feel it has to come down to dollars and cents, telling you what you're going to do and having very specific things and sitting in here, right now, another woman came up and she said a wonderful story, but she said senior center. Again, another discrepancy. Senior Center. What are you saying? Are you going to build an activity center like Livonia seniors? Are you just building buildings for 55 and over? What is the plan here? It still doesn't make any sense. So, I asked that the board really look atjust facts figures dollars cents, there's not enough answers right now to put this in right now, and not yes, they postpone this. Mike Burgess, 30825 Mayville, Livonia, MI. Some of the flooding concerns that the residents have brought up right behind where the garage and the fence are behind the church... well, behind the garage. There is a storm drain, and about 50 yards away from there, there's another storm drainage. And all the years that I've been here, which is well over a dozen, I've never seen an adequate water supply flow through there on drainage, and I'm just asking that the City Council at least postpone and postpone the vote until the city engineers can assess that value of those two storm drains. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. Or, Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Burgess. Good evening, ma'am. Sue Barill, 30540 Jeanine Street. Livonia, MI. I'm just going to be real brief. I wasn't planning on talking tonight, but I just want, when you're making your decision tonight to consider what would be best for the community as a whole, and, you know, leaving this as public land where the whole public can use it, or rezoning it to accommodate the church community, which the more I hear tonight, as much as they say it will be for everybody in the community, it sounds very exclusive to me to their community, and not that they're reaching out to the residents of the neighborhood as a whole. Father Jim King, priests at the Basilica of St. Mary. I have been serving here in this community for 26 years now. I can't believe it's gone that fast. But I came here directly out of seminary to help serve with Father January 31, 2023 30785 George I was asked by the community to come and work with their youth, and to this day...I was a lay man when I first got here, became a deacon and now a priest. I still serve in that capacity. I oversee the youth and outreach ministry at our church, and it's been a privilege and an honor to be here in Livonia. I bought my first home here in Livonia. Raised my family here in Livonia. The basilica is my home parish, where my kids are being raised, where they were baptized, and God willing where they will be married one day. But I really just want to say that over the years, I've had an opportunity to meet many of the members and the neighbors and the residents here in Livonia and it is a gem in America. This is a beautiful city, and I'm honored to be able to be a part of it and to serve. I appreciate everything that I've heard here tonight. Really, thank you for being here and for sharing your concerns. I want to ask the commission tonight to take to heart everything that's been said, but also to take a step back and remember what is being asked for tonight. All we're asking for is to have this land rezoned for the potential of more discussion, more facilitation, more conversation, as we move forward. But in order for us to even consider, and to move forward with the communication, we need to have this land rezoned. That has nothing to do with what goes on after that. So, there's a lot of other processes that has to take place. Mr. Wilshaw: Please, please, please. Father Jim: We were quiet for all of you, at least I was and I really appreciate what you have to say. This is my true feeling as a somebody who is raising my children here as well. This community, this Basilica of St. Mary community, for 25 years before I got there, and for the past 25 years has been serving this community. I've seen it firsthand. I've met many of you in our church. You asked to come and visit our parish and see what this place is all about and I greatly enjoy that I'd meet many of you at our community events and I meet a lot of the seniors in this event every single year for the past 20 years, as we host, as many of you know, Thanksgiving dinner for close to 400 to 500 people every single year for Thanksgiving. We host for free, a community center, not for the homeless, not for the needy, but just for the seniors, the elderly, the veterans, and the orphans when we have the opportunity. So, thank you so much, but please consider where we're at right now. We're just asking for rezoning. There's a lot of process that from my understanding that has to go on after that. And so, it sounds like there is willingness to consider different options back there, but we need to have the land rezone so that we can continue the conversation Thank you. January 31, 2023 30786 Francis Janis, 17439 Sunset, Livonia, MI. A lot of people have already addressed what I had written out originally. The flooding was something I had that's been addressed. Light pollution that's been addressed. I'm also mom to a nine -year -old son that attends Coolidge Elementary. We only moved here about a year ago and he has been involved in an ecological Club, where they actually took samples of the stream out there. There is a lot of runoff from road salt in that stream. I think the best thing I could say is a song that we were listening to this week. They pave Paradise, and they put up a parking lot. Please vote no on this please, for our kids. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening, ma'am. Ellen Cusin, 31098 Bobrich Street, Livonia, MI. I wasn't going to speak. But after hearing the gentleman speak earlier about just go ahead and approve it. And we'll see what happens. No, I'm sorry. That land, we found out by reading the observer after it happened that it had been sold. It was not even told to us many years ago. Then, if I didn't have a good neighbor, who happened to find out that this was going on, I would not be here. I would not know anything until it was done again. That's how we're finding out. I've lived at that, right there, in Livonia for 30 years there and the rest of my life has been over at Merriman and Joy. My whole life has been in Livonia. Livonia is supposed to be for the people, for the families. If we're taking away green space. What's left? What is the draw? Why? Why come to Livonia? Okay, I mean, I just feel like we're being blindsided and something's not right. Even the sign that goes and says that this is being proposed. It's white snow out black ladders. It's by the entrance, the first southern entrance to the original church, whatever they want to call it. Okay. I'm sorry, I do not know that. What? Mr. Wilshaw: Please. Focus on us. Ms. Cusin: He was talking to me. So, it wasn't even in a position it could have been placed that we're planning on doing this. Put it by the stoplight. So when you're there, oh, what's going on? I'm interested, I'm gonna take a look at that. No, it was hidden. It wasn't even put by the entrance to the old Bryant School, where you could pull in there and say, oh, what's the sign up for? So, I'm very concerned about... there is not transparency for what I'm seeing. So, going ahead and just approving and see what happens in the future. I'm not comfortable with that. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, thank you, ma'am. January 31, 2023 30787 Brian Smith, 301 26 Brookview Drive, Livonia, MI. I wasn't going to speak tonight. But after listening to everybody, I feel it'd be a dereliction of my duty as a citizen not to. My mother was pregnant with me when they moved into my house in 1960. They're both my mother and father in heaven now, but I bought the house from them. The only house I've ever lived in. I'm the third guy in my side of the street that is still living in their parents' house. That's incredible. It speaks to the quality of life, and part of that is that field. As the young lady said here earlier, children fly kites, men fly radio - controlled airplanes, children launch rockets as science projects. Dogs play fetch. There's a trail system that goes along the Caribosee, well, you can call it a floodplain or a wetland, I don't really know, but there's a trail system that runs along there. This proposal and that sits before us would actually seal off four trailheads. I don't even know if you guys are aware of that. But there's four trailheads leading down to that creek. I feel sorry for the folks on the south elevation. We've heard people tonight say that there's an issue with noise and light pollution already, which I wasn't even aware of. I don't live on the south elevation but the north elevation is what I want to talk about tonight because that's the one that's facing the woods and the Cariboosee creek. I know that Bryant field, which I still call it... I've been going on those trails since I attended Coolidge. It was a few years ago, but there's a lot of deer that live in those trails. I've seen them face to face on those trails and I just think that sealing off excess is not the way to go. So, I would encourage you to not to approve this proposal as it stands. I think would have a devastating effect on our property values and our quality of life, which really makes Livonia special. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Smith. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening, sir. Tom Erle, 31545 Pembroke Street, Livonia, MI. It's been a long haul for me. It's back in 76 when I moved to Livonia. I really love this community. At this meeting, you said you were going to focus on zoning. I understand that's very important. However, rezoning actually has to take into effect many other things about what can be built there. I think you should table this discussion, until you can get some major studies done on this property. I think it's a wonderful plan that the priest wants to do with this community, but I hear a lot of questions, and one of the biggest questions I hear about is, how are you going to take care of your drainage? That is an engineering thing. You can't change the engineering, just because you change the zoning. You have to understand what that zoning does. What can you do with the land with the January 31, 2023 30788 engineering as you have to do? Now there's ways of creating floodplain, it can be in the ground, it can be above the ground. But those are types of things that you should be finding out before you resolve it. In my humble opinion. There's other issues with the lights and other things that you want to discuss. Those normally can be done with, with a simple changing of lighting. But it hasn't been done before. So, you don't have the trust that you would have if you had that upfront. And that's what I'm hearing, even though it's not my neighborhood, it's still my city. I think that should be answered first before you rezone it. So, take a chance and do due diligence that you might be in better off shape. Like I say, I like what the priest had to say. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Erle. Good evening, ma'am. Sue Nanstad, 30546 Brookview Drive, Livonia, MI. My husband has already spoke, and I've heard a lot of good comments both ways, but I want to bring up the fact that we are just one house away from this field. So, it influences us and affects us greatly. And when you talk about being a good neighbor, I would just like to know there are many public areas in Livonia that are empty, that have been vacated. Why don't we look at something like that to be a good neighbor. If we really want another resource and another senior center. Look at something like that where it's not in the single home area. That's all I'm going to say. I hope you vote no. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening, ma'am. Diana Albarchini, 14179 Cranston Street, Livonia, MI. I would like to add my voice to Father Jim and Father George and the as gentleman here. They sounded very wisdom. I'm going to ask you the same thing to think about it in a wise way, because we have a lot of people here including myself who are looking forward for the center. When we grow old or a housing, I don't know the exact wording, but you know what it means to live there when we're older. We are looking forward for it. We love Livonia. We've been living here in Livonia for a while. My kids goes to Livonia and the community is wonderful and the church is also wonderful. We have a big parishioner number and you should not be afraid from a church, if they're not gonna zone right or do right, because it could be ... this could be a chance for the engineering problems to be actually solved and have your the water issue resolved. So that could be potential. So, if that, you know, if you don't want to vote yes, at least wait for all the studies to be done and hopefully that will be solved and the marketing value will come up because we January 31, 2023 30789 have the best neighbor, and the best city and we make the market value the people make it. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, ma'am. Good evening. Beverly Vines 30547 Bobrich Street, Livonia, MI. Again, I was not planning to speak tonight, but I feel like I need to at least ask that you set this aside, deny the rezoning tonight. Think about the impact it has. I've heard love your neighbor quite a bit. Love your neighbor does not take your backyard or public land away from somebody. Love your neighbor is doing what's best for them. I'm pretty sure that perhaps any of your members or any of the other people that live in Livonia or are on any boards, if this was proposed that would happen to their backyard, that they would probably feel a little bit differently about it. I am compassionate for older people, as my husband stated, we moved our parents in, we took care of them in their house, we did everything that we could. There are ways to take care of our elders, and I strongly believe in taking care of our older people. But it cannot be in my mind, a way to take away from families that have had public land in their backyard that just seems not appropriate doesn't seem fair to those people that are living there. I see the vision. It's a strong, it's a good vision. But I think it needs to be dealt with in a different way and not take people's backyards from them and public land. Thank you for listening. Appreciate it. Amelia Vilkas, 31716 Curtis, Livonia, MI. Can I finish what I wanted to originally? Mr. Wilshaw: I'll give you a minute. Ms. Vilkas: So, every architect at an architectural firm knows that there's a process of design that goes and primarily there's seven steps of the process. The first is the predesign, which is to conduct research and collect information so local zoning land use restrictions, project scope, clients' desires scale, surrounding buildings, neighborhood site conditions, building codes, and more. The second is then the development of the designs and that means developing the design proposal creating site plans, floor plans, building elevations, structural, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, and heating, ventilation and air conditioning. We have not seen those. Only on the fifth process do you go to the city and present your proposal that is known and that has not been done. There has been a mess in so many steps. And it makes this project very questionable. That's all I want to say. January 31, 2023 30790 Salem Samaan, Livonia resident. I'm also a member of the parish and the legal advisors of the parish and I'm also the co-chairman of this Maryim project. I've heard a lot of things tonight, and I appreciate everything that everybody had to say. I appreciate the fact that some people feel emotional about what's happening, but when I hear things about what you need to do first, this is zoning. After this happens, there's no way or no reason for you guys to approve the site plan or the project. When do you start actually doing the work that has been talked about? Once we get to that point, we have to get the engineering done. We have to get the water issue taken care of. There is many things that would have to happen before we come back before you for you to be able to say okay, yes or no, and that decision is up to you. If you don't agree with what's going to be constructed you get to say, No, this is not that. I think we're putting the cart before the horse here. We're saying, well, we don't have the plans, all the studies. How can we do any studies if we don't have the zoning to move forward with these studies? To get it done and move forward? So, thank you very much. Monica Suchara, 31413 Curtis Road, Livonia, MI. Only question I have is how many three and four story buildings do we have in Livonia? And how many in residential areas? As far as I see, I drive around I see very few. The last one I know of went into Madonna University and that was a dorm. And actually Madonna University sent notes to all the neighbors, three, four, five miles across to them, asking if it is okay. Number two, how many private schools have we just put in this year? I believe weput in two charter schools, am I correct? I'm not sure. So, every public, for every public school we put into our city is saying we have no confidence in our public schools. It drives me nuts. That part drives me nuts because I'm very pro public, and we're losing students and where are they going? You know. So, that's another thing to take in consideration. And right now, they have a Montessori. There's been a sign up for three, four years. I don't even know if they fill that Montessori, and right now they can say one to five. How do you know it doesn't go one to high school? We don't know that. They can change that, and we also have a what 50 million? What do we spend for our rec center? And we also have programs for all our children, for all our seniors, for all people that are handicapped, everything we have our own. So that's not going to say I'm a hyper person, excuse me, and I like you over there. I like you a lot. Oh, my God got a nice face. Bye. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there anyone else wishing to speak? I think we've given everyone a good shot. If everyone can please quiet down a little bit. Now we're going to give an opportunity for the petitioner to January 31, 2023 30791 come forward and address any issues that they would We to, again, we're not going to engage in a debate back and forth. But we do always give our petitioner the last word. So, if they would like to add anything from what they've heard, answer any questions or address any issues that were raised, this is the time to do it. Father George: Once again, this is very helpful. It's bringing to light question that we are not aware of it. When we had the groundbreaking ceremony, because the bishop was in town we didn't build. We did not have the right to send an announcement to the neighbor. It's the city's job. So, when you say that and where's the sign is '..the sign is on our property? We cannot put it on Bryant Junior High School. We are not here to debate what everyone has said. All what I'm saying, that all these concern will be answered and will be bound by law as the City of Livonia whether the Zoning Commission, the city, the police, because the best advocate for all of us, is you, the police, the fire marshal, the traffic and all of them, they will not violate the law that we stand. I appeal to you to that we can vote for it and we can work together in the future because this meeting, as much as we may be differ and disagree, we all have saying the same thing. So, who's going to decide one over the other? We're here. We're listening. I sat down here for two and a half hours and it seems to me I'm the one who's been attack and distrusted and talking about trust and not trust. Mr. Martin: Free speech. Free speech. Father George: Yes. Well, thank you. Give me the time to speak. Don't answer without... don't interrupt me. I did not interrupt you. When we talk about constitution, we're not talking about the Constitution of the Nation, we're talking of the constitution of archdiocese. So, I am here to work with you to any proposal, to any modification, to any change that will bring this project to fruition. I thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Father George. Going to go to our commissioners and see if there's any questions that they have, either for our planning staff or for the petitioner. Is there any questions from any of our commissioners based on the information we've heard so far? Mr. Long: The plan for the school. I've heard differing age groups for the school. What would be the if you if you built the school, what would be the grade levels that attended that school? (Audience asked if he could speak louder) (Inaudible) January 31, 2023 30792 Mr. Long: Well, so first of all, my question, sorry, I wasn't close enough to the microphone, tut my question was, what would be the age group for the schools? Mr. Abdelnour: One to five. It's a Montessori school. Its age one through five. One year old to five -year -old. It's basically it's just a matter, there's no kindergarten, there's no first, second grade. It's just a one through five, period, not grade, but age group.. Mr. Long: So, after five years old, then they would attend a different school? Mr. Abdelnour: We don't deal with them after that. Mr. Long: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions from any of our commissioners, for our petitioner? Mr. Wilshaw: I do want to thank everyone in the audience for your comments. Obviously, there was a lot of comments that we received. There's a lot of information that we're taking in and there's a lot of issues that were raised. And we appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments on this issue, both for and against. Mr. Taormina, I did have just a couple of questions, based on some of the information that we heard. There was discussion about this remaining public land. This property, as I understand it, is not public land. It was purchased by the church when it was sold by the school district some years ago. Is that correct? Mr. Taormina: It's my understanding that St. Marys or an affiliate of St. Marys is now the owner of the property in question...they own it. It's no longer owned by Livonia Public Schools. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, and the public lands zoning is kind of a unique zoning in our choices of zoning, in the sense that it's dedicated strictly to land that is owned by governmental entities, such as a school city and perhaps smaller municipalities. Is that correct? Mr. Taormina: No, the ordinance does not preclude public land being owned by a private corporation, firm or person, but the use itself needs to be authorized and licensed for public service or public use. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, so that explains what the purpose of public land is. Okay. Okay, and the other question was in regards to the master plan, What does the master plan say this property's designation is? January 31, 2023 30793 Mr. Taormina: As I indicated in my opening remarks, the Parks and Community designation reflects the prior ownership by LPS. The master plan also has a category called floodplain and that recognizes that a substantial portion of the property is in fact, regulated floodplain area. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. All right. Thank you. That was a couple hours ago. So, you need to refresh my memory. Thank you. Is there anyone else with any questions for either the petitioner or for our planning staff on the commission? If not... Mr. Caramagno: Mr. Taormina, I've got a question. If this were to get changed to zoning for the high rise multistory apartment complex, if it were to go down that road, could the school, and anything can happen I understand, could the school potentially sell the rest of that land? And is there a precedent to build apartments on that property for a developer then? Mr. Taormina: If what you're saying is that if this rezoning is approved and an apartment building is constructed on the property and then at some future date LPS decides to sell additional land, would that open the door potentially for additional similar type of development? I would say that it would potentially... decisions would be made by the city that would recognize those adjoining land uses as probably being compatible, to some extent. But each case is going to have to be reviewed on its own separate merits, and now we're talking about a different property and potentially different impacts to the surrounding area. So, I would say it doesn't set a precedent. Mr. Caramagno: You say it does or does not? Mr. Taormina: I would not, but I think it could potentially influence to some extent, the future use. Mr. Caramagno: So, if you've got a 100, home, apartment building sitting there, and the school sells the rest of that property to a developer, they say, hey, listen, there's already an apartment building there, I want to put in 12 more of these things now. Mr. Taormina: Yes, I don't think it does. It doesn't guarantee that by any means. Or. Caramagno: No, of course not, but yeah, but it puts you in a bad position. It could put you in a bad position. So okay, Thank you, Mark. January 31, 2023 30794 Mr. Wilshaw: All right. Thank you, Mr. Caramagno. Any other questions from any of our commissioners? Mr. Taormina, to kind of play off Mr. Caramagno' s question, slightly in terms of and, it was raised by one of our residents, Mr. Condon, raised the issue of if this property is rezoned, and I'm speaking specifically of the NM3 I, the high rise section of the property, if it's rezoned to that zoning, and the church decides to not go forward with this project, that zoning will stay with that property, and it could potentially be sold off by the church to a private developer, who would already have that zoning secured, and then they could present a site plan to build something on that property privately outside of the church's project, is that correct? Mr. Taormina: That's possible. Once the zoning is in place, it doesn't guarantee the ownership. That's not the purpose of zoning which provides the framework for what can be developed on that property. So, yes, I mean, theoretically, what you're saying could occur. Mr. Wilshaw: Right, the guarantee that we've heard so far tonight is that it's the church's constitution, their internal documents and processes that prevent or preclude them from being able to sell a property. But there's, there's no, is there a guarantee that we can incorporate into this process anywhere to prevent that Mr. Taormina: The only way that could happen would be through a conditional zoning agreement which is something that City Council would have to entertain. The conditions upon which the zoning would be affected would have to be voluntarily offered by the church. So, the church would have to present that to the City Council, and the City Council could consider that for approval. It's not something that either this body or the council can impose upon the develop. It would have to be voluntary on the part of the Petitioner as a conditional zoning agreement as specified in the statute. Mr. Wilshaw: So, the property owner themselves, which in this case is the churchI would be able to say that they're willing to condition the zoning, that it would be only for their use and then if the property is not used by them for that process, it would... the zoning would revert back to its former use, and that would be an offer that they would have to make to us. Is that correct? Mr. Taormina: That is my understanding, and we'd have to confer with our legal department to make sure that they would agree with that, but we've done similar types of agreements in the past, so I believe it is possible. January 31, 2023 30795 Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Okay. That's the only question I had, at the moment. Is there anything from anyone else again? Mr. Long: Mark, with some of the other rezonings that we've had, maybe to a commercial status, I believe that the zoning doesn't necessarily go for a vote with City Council until a site plan, it kind of gets coupled with the site plan. Am I correct with that? Or do they always do a zoning first and then come back for a... Mr. Taormina: Typically, what will happen is, once this body makes a recommendation, City Council will then hold a public hearing. If they decided to move the project forward, there would be a First Reading, which basically announces the fact that the City is in the process of changing the zoning of the property. But that doesn't commit the City to the change. What happens next is, for a lack of a better term, the City Council puts the brakes on the zoning process and allows the petitioner then to file a site plan application. That's when we get into all of the details associated with the project, whether it's lighting, engineering, flooding, and our stormwater detention. All these things are addressed as part of the site plan review process. This body then makes a recommendation to City Council, which has a similar review of the details of the site plan. The final step in the process is the Second Reading and Roll Call vote on the zoning, followed by a vote on the site plan. That typically happens at the end and is the final step in the process. You're right, the action to rezone the property typically does not occur until such time that the City Council has reviewed the full plan, and the plans have been fully considered. Mr. Long: So, if that process were followed, or here as well, you would have the same type of thing. It would be given a is reading, but until a site plan would come through on this, the zoning would not be officially changed until the site plan if that same process were held. Mr. Taormina: That's correct. The rezoning is really an amendment to the zoning ordinance and zoning map. That process requires publication. The Second Reading and Roll Call doesn't occur until after the site plan has been reviewed and is ready for approval. Or. Long: Thank you for that procedural clarification. Or. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Long. I appreciate you bringing that issue up. It is kind of a complex process that happens here at the city when it comes to rezonings and the first reading and second reading that happened at Council and those are terms that not everyone in the January 31, 2023 30796 audience or the community are necessarily familiar with, or that's a process that they don't necessarily see on a daily basis and their day to day lives. So, it's good to understand that it is fairly typical in the city for zoning as it goes to City Council to be held essentially, until the site plan catches up to it. So, it's not often that you will see a zoning change in the city without some sort of a detailed site plan right behind it at that exact same meeting. So, just so people understand that process a little bit more thorough, I appreciate your asking those questions. The other thing to keep in mind is for the folks in our audience, zoning and site plans are two very distinctly different processes. And as we make whatever recommendation that we make. City council doesn't necessarily agree with our recommendations they sometimes will deny a request that we approve of, or in our recommendation, there's times that we make a denying request or recommendation and City Council make an approving recommendation. There's also the scenario of a petitioner requesting a particular zoning use such as... I'm going to just use the example in this case of a NM3- I which allows a four-story building and we or the City Council may only approve a lesser zoning, more restrictive zoning. Is that correct, Mr. Taormina? That happens on occasion. Mr. Taormina: That is correct. Mr. Wilshaw: So, I think that things can be...there's a lot of different paths that this can go on. It's the whole point of what I'm trying to say to both our folks here that are in the audience watching this and also online and on TV, so just wanted to make those comments. If there's no other questions or comments from any of our commissioners, ten I will close the public hearing and a motion is in order Mr. Wilshaw: And this is where the silence happens. Mr. Long: Mr. Chairman, you know we've listened to a lot of different voices here tonight and came into this with an open mind because I wanted to hear what everybody had to say. I cannot myself get behind the multi -story, the three story zoning for that part of the parcel. I can get behind a car compromise zoning that would be the N2, which would allow the... it's a neighborhood. It would not allow the multi -story building to be built, but it would allow the school. On a motion by Long, seconded by Bongero, and adopted, it was #01-04-2023 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on January 31, 2023, on January 31, 2023 30797 Petition 2022-12-01-02 submitted by Basilica of St. Mary under Sections 13.13 and 13.15 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, requesting to rezone parts of the properties at 18100 Merriman Road and 30600 Brookview Drive, located on the east side of Merriman Road between Mayville Drive and Seven Mile Road in the Northwest'Y4 of Section 11, from P-L (Public Lands) to N2 (Neighborhood) and NM3-1 (Neighborhood Multifamily — Maximum 4 Stories), the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that only the N2 portion of the request be approved at this time, for the following reasons: 1. The proposed N2 District is compatible with the surrounding land uses and zoning districts. 2. The current P-L District is intended for uses or facilities that furnish governmental services to the public. 3. The proposed N2 District will provide for the development of the subject property in a manner that is appropriate for its size and location. 4. The proposed zoning change will allow the development of an educational academy that will provide needed services for the Basilica and the surrounding area, and 5. The proposed zoning change is consistent with the Future Land use Pian's goals, policies, and objectives. FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 and 13.15 of Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Bongero, Long, Caramagno, Wilshaw NAYS: Dinaro ABSENT: Ventura ABSTAIN: None Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? Or, Caramagno: Mr, Chair. Or, Wilshaw: Mr. Caramagno? January 31, 2023 30798 Mr. Caramagno: I share in Mr. Longs opposition to a high-rise building apartment complex. I have concern from what I heard earlier. I'm not opposed to the alternate and the school building, but I did hear very clearly earlier that the church is not interested in a split decision on this. I don't know if they've changed their mind or will change their mind based upon this vote, but I heard it pretty clearly earlier that it's all or nothing. So, I'm willing to go through with the vote. But I don't know if we should ask them if they're interested in this or not, before we vote on it. Mr. Wilshaw: Well, normally we don't go back to the petitioner in the middle of a motion. But if... Mr. Caramagno: We don't have to, but I'm just... I heard it pretty clearly said earlier that it's all or nothing. They're not interested in a partial. Mr. Wilshaw: This is the motion that has been made. So, this is what will, if approved, will go on to City Council and if they want something else, they can present something else to either us or City Council at that point. We're making a recommendation for the N2. This is a request just to approve the N2 zoning. Mr. Taormina: To answer Mr. Caramagno's question, I guess the follow-up question would be, will there be a subsequent consideration for the other part of the request? (Audience said they couldn't hear) Mr. Taormina: The question is whether or not there will be a subsequent consideration for the balance of the request. The Commission is only addressing the N2 portion of the petition at this point. I don't know if it's the intent of the Commission to then address the NM3 request as a separate resolution. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Long? Mr. Long: Thank you. Mr. Taormina, can you put the map backup? It's okay, we've been here a long time and we have screensavers and timeouts. Mr. Taormina: Yeah. So, what's your, if I may... Mr. Long: So, on the map right there, the L shaped parcel is suggested here to go from PL to N2, and that was the area where they wanted to place the school, correct. Mr. Taormina: That is correct. January 31, 2023 30799 Or. Long: Okay. So, my motion refers only to the L-shaped parcel and does not touch the public land that was requested to go to NM3-I. Mr. Taormina: Understood. Mr, Long: Okay. So, therefore, you now, I guess I'm not touching that with my motion. I guess we could, I don't know the rules of procedure as to whether we could take that separately, or what, but the intent of my proposal here was to just offer up the school. Mr. Taormina: If the Commission decides to vote on that, then the question is, will there be a second resolution? We should still address the balance of the request, whether it's a denial, a tabling, or an alternate zoning classification, because that is part of the request. You can bifurcate the resolution. Mr. Wilshaw: The petition before us is for both pieces, so we should address them either positively or negatively in some form or another, and certainly alternative motions are also available to be put on the floor if someone wishes to do that, and we could vote on that, that doesn't happen very often. Mr. Taormina: You should vote on this portion now. Mr. Long: So, we would vote on mine first and then move forward. Mr. Wilshaw: Right, we can vote on your motion, and then we'll allow for another motion to be put on the floor for the remaining parcel if someone's willing to make that motion. Okay. Is that okay to the maker of this motion? Mr. Long: That's okay to the maker of this motion. We can deny this and if we start over if that's what my colleagues prefer. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: All right. is there any more discussion on this motion, which again, is to only approve the into portion of the of the zoning. Any other questions, comments? If not, if the Secretary is ready, please call the roll. Or. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Or, Wilshaw: We do have an opportunity now for any additional motions to be made on this. January 31, 2023 30800 As. Dinaro: I'm going to motion to table it. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Miss Dinaro is making a motion to table the remaining portion, which is the NM3 portion, I guess we're going to call that the NM3-I. Is there support for our tabling motion? Mr. Bongero: Support. Mr. Wilshaw: All right. There is a motion made by Mrs. Dinaro supported by Mr. Bongero. There is no discussion on tabling motions, unfortunately. Mr. Wilshaw: Before you call the roll, I just want to ask Ms. Dinaro a clarifying question. Are you setting a date certain or an open ended? Ms. Dinaro: I think open ended for now. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Mr. Taormina? Mr. Taormina: In this case, we would have to act on the petition within a certain timeframe. I apologize, but I believe it's 60 days from the point in time when it is determined that the application is complete. So, this item would most likely have to appear at our next meeting. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, so it will go to our next study. Mr. Taormina: Unless the petitioner is willing to push it back. So that is the other option. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay: All right. So, it seems like the most prudent day would be to put our next regular public meeting. Is that acceptable to you? Ms. Dinaro: I suppose. Mr. Wilshaw: You're the maker of the motion. So, we have a tabling to our next regularly scheduled meeting. And that will give the...we can ask our Planning Department if they want to talk to the petitioner about... or figure out if that date is within our guidelines. Is there there's no discussion on tabling so Mr. Secretary, are you caught up? Mr. Caramagno: I think so. Mr. Wilshaw: Please call the roll. On a motion by Dinaro, seconded by Bongero, and adopted, it was January 31, 2023 30801 #01-05-2023 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on January 31, 2023, on Petition 2022-12-01-02 submitted by Basilica of St. Mary under Sections 13.13 and 13.15 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, requesting to rezone parts of the properties at 18100 Merriman Road and 30600 Brookview Drive, located on the east side of Merriman Road between Mayville Drive and Seven Mile Road in the Northwest Y4 of Section 11, from P-L (Public Lands) to N2 (Neighborhood) and NM3-1 (Neighborhood Multifamily — Maximum 4 Stories), the City Planning Commission does hereby table the part of the request for the change of zoning to NM3-1 to February 14, 2023, Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Dinaro, Bongero, Caramagno NAYS: Long, Wilshaw ABSENT: Ventura ABSTAIN: None Mr. Wilshaw: Folks we do have one more item on our agenda so if you can please give us a chance. Alright folks, we have one more item on our agenda. Mr. Taormina: We have another item sorry. Mr. Wilshaw: Folks, Please clear the auditorium. Mr. Wilshaw: All right, folks, we have we have one more item on our agenda we have to get to so please clear the auditorium. We have doors on both sides, please clear. Mr. Wilshaw: All right. We're missing our secretary but that's all right. Well, we'll move on here. ITEM #4 PETITION 2022-12-02-21 EROP, L.L.C. Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2022- 12-02-21 submitted by EROP, L.L.C. requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 6.07 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, in connection with a proposal to redevelop the site, including demolishing the existing restaurant (Archie's) and constructing a new automated auto wash facility January 31, 2023 30802 ((Vhitewater Express), at 30471 Plymouth Road, located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middlebelt Road and Milburn Avenue in the Northwest Y4 of Section 35, Mr. Taormina: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a waiver -use request involving the redevelopment of the former Archie's restaurant. The location is on the south side of Plymouth Road between Merriman and Middlebelt Roads. The zoning of the property is C-2 (General Business). The site is roughly 1.75 acres in area with 125 feet of road frontage. The existing restaurant is just under 6,000 square feet. Located on the front part of the property, there are two driveways providing site ingress and egress. Restaurants have operated at this location since the late 1960s. To the east, west and north of the property are commercial zoning districts and to the south are residential homes that are part of the Devonshire Park Subdivision. The restaurant would be demolished, and a new automated carwash would be constructed in its place. The carwash building would be about 3,700 square feet in size and would be built in the same general location as the existing restaurant. Ingress and egress would continue to be provided from the two existing driveways. The west driveway would accommodate two-way traffic, whereas the east driveway, which is directly in front of the exit to the carwash, would be for exiting vehicles only and would not allow for two-way traffic coming from Plymouth Road. There is a 24-foot-wide drive aisle on the west side of the site that would provide access to the carwash. As this drive continues further south on the property, it would widen to allow for three pay kiosks. The plan being presented this evening is a little different than the one discussed at the study session. After paying, the three lanes taper to form a single 12-foot-wide lane that turns and heads east for a short distance before turning north in a U shaped pattern to the entrance of the carwash at the south end of the building. The point -of -sales kiosks would contain digital menu boards and self -serve pay stations, and would be covered with overhead canopies. Automated gates located just beyond the pay kiosks would control vehicle access. A 12400t- wide escape line would be provided before entering the carwash. Parking would be provided in the area between the building and the main drive aisle. Thus, as customers exit the carwash, they would have the option of looping back around to access the parking lot and vacuums, which are on the west side of the building. The building would be setback 57 feet from the right of way of Plymouth Road and 262 feet from the residential property lines to the south. The ordinance requires no fewer than 20 parking spaces. The submitted site plan shows 24 spaces,19 of which would be equipped with the self -serve vacuums. The five remaining stalls, which are in the southwest corner of the lot, January 31, 2023 30803 would be for employees. The previous plan showed only four spaces for employees. There's an easement on the west side of the site that shows five additional parking spaces that would be used by the adjacent business, Midas. Building materials include half high concrete block masonry product, and fiber cement panels on the upper portion of the tower element to the building. There are, as you can see from the renderings, a few small windows that would be installed on both sides of the building. The front and rear elevations contain overhead doors for vehicles entering and exiting the carwash. This is a one-story structure. The maximum height would be 23 '% feet. A dumpster enclosure is shown with six -foot -high surrounding walls that would be constructed of brick veneer to match the design of the building. All stormwater runoff would be detained underground. Landscaping has been addressed. Along Plymouth Road, the pIan shows two full sized trees, one ornamental tree and 16 shrubs. PRDA streetscape improvements have been added to the plan including a section of decorative fencing and masonry piers, identical to what the PRDA maintains along Plymouth Road. The fencing and piers combined total approximately 45 lineal feet. At the south end of the property where it abuts residential, the greenbelt has been widened to 50 feet. The screening here includes an existing five -foot -high masonry wall. Adjacent to the wall is a three- to four -foot -high berm that is planted with mature evergreen trees. Additional trees and other plantings would be provided, including six eastern red cedar trees, two red bud trees, one honey locust and 15 deciduous shrubs. Part of the concern expressed at the study meeting was, while its landscape nicely today, those are very mature trees and may begin to weaken or die -off, and widening the greenbelt provides an good opportunity for additional plantings. Some additional plantings have been provided which the Commission should determine is or is not adequate. For site lighting, there are nine pole -mounted fixtures and 13 wall sconces. The photometric pIan has been revised so that the average level of illumination across the site has been reduced from 3.43 foot candles to one (1) foot candle, and is now in compliance with the zoning ordinance. In terms of signage, this site is allowed one wall sign 31 square feet in area, and one ground sign 30 square feet. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read out the departmental correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please. Mr. Taormina: The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated December 9, 2022, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above January 31, 2023 30804 referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed waiver use at this time. The subject parcel is assigned the address of #30471 Plymouth Road. The legal description included with the submitted drawings appears to be correct, and should be used in conjunction with the proposed waiver use. The existing parcel is currently served by public water main, sanitary sewer and storm sewer. The proposed drawings do not indicate any storm water detention which will be required in order to meet the Wayne County Stormwater Ordinance. We are unable to comment on impacts to the existing systems until design calculations are provided during the design and permitting submittals. It should be noted that although there is no work planned in the Plymouth Road right-of-way, any disturbances within the right-of-way will require the owner to obtain permits with the Michigan Department of Transportation (MOOT)." The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated January 10, 2023, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request to construct a commercial building on property located at the above referenced address. We have no objections to this proposal. A further detailed plan review will take place when this division receives an official plan set."The letter is signed by Brian Kukla, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the Division of Police, dated December 19, 2022, which reads as follows: `9 have reviewed the plans in connection with the petition. I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Scott Sczepanski, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next letter is from the Inspection Department, dated January 17, 2023, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the above -referenced Petition has been reviewed. 1. Signage must be in accordance with the Sign Ordinance, or a variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals would be required. This Department has no further objections to this Petition." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. The next letter is from the Finance Department, dated December 15, 20220 which reads as follows: "I have reviewed the addresses connected with the above noted petition. As there are no outstanding amounts receivable, general or water and sewer, I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Connie Kumpula, Chief Accountant. The next letter is from the Treasurer's Department, dated January 5, 2023, which reads as follows: `In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's Office has reviewed the address connected with the above noted petition. At this time, there are no outstanding amounts receivable for taxes. Therefore, I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. That is the extent of the correspondence. January 31, 2023 30805 Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Any questions for planning staff? If not, our petitioner is here tonight. Welcome. Erin McMachen, out Shelby Street, Ste. 200, Detroit, MI. Good evening, guys. Thank you for staying so late. Thank you, Mark, for giving a great summary of the project. I really just wanted to hit on the revisions we made since last week. We took all of your comments to heart and presented them to Whitewater and they didn't hesitate. We want to comply with them all. I was kind of hearing Mark's voice that maybe the landscaping at the rear wasn't enough, and we're always happy to add more landscaping. That's kind of one of the points on Whitewater's website. If you guys have checked them out, they actually pride themselves in their landscaping and because you know, their customers are a priority to them, and they want them to be repeat customers. That's how they keep business and so they'd be happy to provide more landscaping. But I think Mark hit that we've addressed all comments from last week, and we would be happy to answer any other questions from you all or anyone else here to comment. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, thank you. Any questions for our petitioner? Ms. Dinaro? Mr. Dinaro: It looks so much better. This is great. Remind me again, I know you told us in the study session what the timeline is on becoming operational? Ms. McMachen: Yes. So, we would probably start construction this summer. You know, we still have to go to City Council and go through our building permitting. We don't have a building permit plan set yet, so that would be a couple months. They should be able to wrap up construction by the fall. The site's all concrete, so that allows them to do pavement a little more into those winter months. They use sod for their landscaping. They won't open a carwash without the sod in place because they don't want dirt flying around. So, if they can get sod in place by the end of summer, I would anticipate them being open in the fall. Jr. Wilshaw: Great. Thank you, Ms. Dinaro. Any other questions for our petitioner? Jr. Wilshaw: No other questions for our petitioner. Anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against? We have one person that would like to come forward. Thank you for sticking around. Ryan Jones, 30572 Elmira, Livonia, MI. All this for this right. I am just about a house over from when the back of this property will go. A couple January 31, 2023 30806 of neighbors and I have talked about if there's going to be any water pressure issues, just because coming from the carwash pollutions car emissions, all that kind of stuff with our backyards butting right up to the property. I have three little girls at home that are always outside so I was just ... a brand new car wash...I think there was one in Westland just went up ... lines like down the street always with a brand new carwash. They always come up and they're always super busy. So, that was just something that we talked about. The noise, especially with vacuums going on I'm not sure I saw that map, I wasn't sure where they had put the vacuums. I had been a part of like Matic auto wash over by Telegraph and 1-96. Vacuums...I mean, I could stop there pretty much anytime of the day those vacuums were going. So just now that it's in my backyard, it's a question I have. So, the time of operation, I don't know if that was stated. What the hours were going to be. Mr. Wilshaw: They mentioned that our study meeting that was going to be seven days a week eight to eight. I don't know if that has changed or not. Okay, I'm still seeing nodding so yeah, So seven days a week. Mr. Jones: You know the, that line...so those...that fence that's there is like a four foot block wall right now and did they say something about a berm is ... because those lights are going to ... there's parking lot back there when Archie's, when Archie's was a little bit more busy than they are now those lights would shine right into the backyard, from Midas and from Archie's. So, that was a point of concern that we had with... especially if they're open at eight. In the wintertime that means they're... from 430 up until closing time there's going to be light shining right in the backyard. The carwash' s in Livonia... like 15 and counting. I can throw a stone in any direction and hit a carwash. So that was like...I saw there was actually a plan in place for six ... was it Six and Newburgh? No, it was six and Newburgh that got shot down. So that was ... I don't know if we're just trying to stuff one in a spot... another one in Livonia. There's...I can count. .I think there's five on Plymouth Road alone between Newburgh and Middlebelt. So that's kind of ... between the chicken places and the carwash' s, I feel like we're in an episode of Breaking Bad. So, the ... I just there's, there's so many of them. I feel like there's just another one that's coming in here. So, the last thing was the shrubs in the back. So, they actually... the dealership has that parking lot right there to the left. They actually cut down all the trees there because they didn't want to deal with the vines that were growing in the trees. So, I don't know, all those trees along that line are pretty much infested with... there. They're not doing well. So, I don't know. that January 31, 2023 30807 lush comment, I don't know who said that they're lush, but they're struggling evergreen trees that are below the powerlines. So, if not for DTE trimming them, then there's... they're not doing well. So, I don't know if they're planning...I know you guys did say something about adding a lot more landscape. So that would be a plus. But that's a plus with a lot more a lot of negative side. I just want to put my two cents and since we are right there and appreciate your guys' time. Mr. Wilshaw: Definitely Thank you, Mr. Jones. Anyone else in our audience wishing to speak on this item? I don't see anyone. You get the final word Ms. McMachen. Ms. McMachen So, just to address everything you said, and I am happy you came out. You know, Whitewater does want to be a good neighbor, they don't want to be anywhere they're not wanted, you know. Good to know about those trees on the west side of the property. You know, if they're not in good health, they will certainly provide a continuous evergreen hedge there of trees, because that was the intent of this plan, you know, showing the existing trees and if they're not healthy, we'll certainly replace them. We can note that on our plans. Just to touch a bit on operations. You know, noise from the vacuums is certainly always a concern. If you look on either side of the bypass lane, those are where the central housing systems are located and where a majority of the noise comes from. Those are behind a six-foot masonry wall, identical to the trash enclosure to help buffer that sound as well as all the landscaping on site. And I guess, you know, a good comparison that we give is, you know, from a residential property, they wouldn't be any louder than the traffic on Plymouth Road, which is why, you know, our carwash sites are always on a busier road. In terms of traffic, the site has more than enough stacking on site than what our tenant requires. I think we show about 20 spaces, but there's room for 30 plus spaces. Our tenant requires 18 stacking spaces on a busy day. To also combat those busy days, they can control the speed of the conveyor. They keep it at a slow speed to provide the best wash, but if there is a super busy day and cars are, you know, down the line, they have the ability to increase the speed of that conveyor and move cars through more quickly, as well as having the 19 vacuums on site to provide their customers with that free service and not have to wait. We talked about pollution; you know smells and light. The only light at the rear of the site is 50 feet from the residential property, That's 20 feet tall and is shielded and pointed downward and we have lowered the output on these lights. So, it's about one foot candle at the light and behind that light the whole 50-foot buffer is zero- January 31, 2023 30808 foot candles. So, there shouldn't be any spillover onto those residential properties. And those lights will only be operating from eight to eight with the carwash. And then pollution, no idling when they're at the vacuums. That's typical and the employees will help enforce that. All the detergents that are used are eco-friendly, phosphate free and everything's treated internally before it's discharged to the municipal sewer system, you know, oils, floatables, sediment, detergents, so no concern with pollution. There's a trash receptacle at each vacuum site and five employees that clean the site at the end of each day. So, there shouldn't be any litter either. Any questions? Mr. Jones: What about the wow factor when it finally opens up? Is that traffic that's sitting there waiting to get their wash... Ms. McMachen: Sure, sure, yeah, there might be, you know, new customers trying to figure out you know, the prices of our systems and stuff like that and I actually went to a few that have first opened and there'll be one employee stationed at the pay stations to kind of help guide everyone through, decide what they want, describe the membership system and guide them through until everyone's aware of the system. Mr. Wilshaw: And also, Ms. McMachen, did you address...and I don't know that you really can, but the amount of water usage? And would there be an effect on any downstream water pressure because this is a high-water consumer? Ms. McMachen: Yeah, not that we know of. Typically, when we get into the engineering phase, we have, you now, our mechanical, electrical, and plumbing plans. The study will either say, you know, we do have adequate supply, or we're not sure they'll get a flow test. And so, we would get a flow test done at that point. But their technology inside the tunnel, they're brand-new carwash, so they use more efficient equipment, they consume 70%, less than other car washes, they use about 25 to 30 gallons per car. So that's another, you know, selling point for them. They pride themselves in that, Mr. Wilshaw: As I understand it, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a lot of these newer car washes are recycling a fair amount of the water and then just introducing a certain percentage of fresh water to that is that kind of how this works. Ms. McMachen: So, they have that capability. They have the back claim tanks there, which treats it before it goes to the sewer system. But they also do have the capability to recycle the water. They really only January 31, 2023 30809 see their Texas locations do that or you know if there's a water shortage or a drought issue, because it does affect the quality of the wash at the end of the day. So, it's there if they need to use it in the future, but they don't plan to use it right now. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, just doing cleaning of the water before it gets put into the sewer system. Okay. All right. Any other questions for petitioner? We got Mr. Bongero and then Mr. Long. Mr. Bongero: Just a question, How did you settle on this location? Why was this spot... being that there's carwash less than a mile away? Like, why this spot? Ms. McMachen: Yeah, we touched on that carwash last week. They really see themselves as a more modern brand with that, you know, monthly subscription and having these high-powered free vacuums as opposed to coin operated vacuums. So, they first look at, you know, what's the traffic level on the road? You know, are we going to get customers driving by? Are we going to, you know, add any unnecessary traffic to the road, you know, it's already a busy road. They look for surrounding compatible uses. So that would be you know, we have auto all around us. The car dealership right there. That's a big selling factor for them. You know, of course, we have residential in the rear, which we always try to stay away from, but in a case like this, it seems like a great use compatible use for the site. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Bongero. Mr. Long? Mr. Long: Mr. Bongero addressed my concerns. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Stealing your thunder. Mr. Long: We okay. It's late. I'm all for consolidation. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, any other questions from our petitioner or excuse me, our commissioners? It is getting late. If there's no other questions or comments, then I'm going to ask for a motion. On a motion by Dinaro, seconded by Long, and adopted, it was #01-06-2023 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on January 17, 2023, on Petition 2022-12-02-21 submitted by EROP, L.L.C. requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 6.07 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, in connection with a proposal to redevelop the site, including demolishing the existing January 31, 2023 30810 restaurant (Archie's) and constructing a new automated auto wash facility (Whitewater Express), at 30471 Plymouth Road, located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middlebelt Road and Milburn Avenue in the Northwest'/4 of Section 35, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 2022-12-02-21 be approved subject to the following conditions: 1. The Site Plan identified as sheet C-2, dated January 27, 2023, prepared by Stonefield Engineering & Design, is approved and shall be adhered to. 2. All parking spaces, except the required handicapped spaces, shall be doubled striped at least ten feet (10') wide by twenty feet (20') in length. 3. The hours of operation, including the vacuums, shall be limited to 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. 4. The Landscape Plan identified as sheet C-6, dated January 27, 2023, prepared by Stonefield Engineering & Design, is approved and shall be adhered to, except that additional evergreen screening shall be provided along the south side of the property subject to the review and approval of the Planning Department. 5. The brick piers and fencing along Plymouth Road as shown on the revised site plan shall match the existing PRDA brick piers and fencing. 6. All dying, dead, diseased, or missing landscaping shall be replaced at the direction of the Planning and Inspection Departments, 7. All disturbed lawn areas, including road rights -of -way, shall be sodded instead of hydroseedingI 8. Underground sprinklers shall be installed for all landscaped and sodded areas. All planted materials shall be installed to the satisfaction of the Inspection Department and permanently maintained in a healthy condition. 9. The Elevation Plan identified as sheet A200, dated November 16, 2022, prepared by REB Architects, is approved and shall be adhered to. January 31, 2023 30811 10. The three walls of the dumpster enclosure shall be constructed with the same brick used in the construction of the building. If a poured wall is used, the design, texture, and color shall match the building. The enclosure gates shall consist of opaque and durable steel or composite panels. 11. All rooftop mechanical equipment shall be concealed from public view on all sides by screening, consisting of material compatible in color with other exterior materials on the building. 12. All light fixtures shall not exceed a height of twenty feet (20') and shall be aimed and shielded to minimize stray light trespassing across property lines and glaring onto adjacent roadways. All exterior lights shall be turned off or dimmed between 8:30 p.m. and 7:30 a.m. 13. Only conforming signage is approved with this petition, and any additional signage shall be separately submitted for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals. 14. No LED light band or exposed neon shall be permitted on this site, including, but not limited to, the building or around the windows. 15. Unless approved by the Inspection Department, any type of exterior advertising, such as promotional flags, streamers, or sponsor vehicles designed to attract the attention of passing motorists, shall be prohibited. 16. The plans referenced in this approving resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department with the building permit application(s), and 17. Per Section 13.13 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, this approval is valid for one (1) year from the date of approval by the City Council. Unless a building permit is obtained, this approval shall be null and void after the one (1) year period. FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 of Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? January 31, 2023 30812 Or. Taormina: If the maker of the motion would please consider changes to condition #4. After listening to the petitioner and their willingness to add landscaping, where needed, the Planning Department recommends additional plantings, mostly along the rear of the property, to increase the buffering adjacent to the residential. Also, a provision to address replacing any dead, dying or diseased landscaping. We will fashion the language. By the time this project gets built and the impacts from construction, should any of the existing landscaping be impacted, we'd like the ability to require that those get replaced. These changes would improve and increase the screening between this project and the residential. Mr. Wilshaw: All right. Thank you, Ms. Dinaro: I am alright with that. Mr. Taormina. Our maker of the motion is okay with that. Is the supporter? Mr. Long: Emphatically Yes. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. So, we have a slight modification to the landscaping portion of the approval. Any further discussion? If not, if the Secretary is ready, please call the roll. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Dinaro, Long, Caramagno NAYS: Bongero, Wilshaw ABSENT: Ventura ABSTAIN: None Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM #5 Motion for Public Hearing Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Motion to hold a Public Hearing, pursuant to Section 13.15 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, and under Public Act 110 of 2006 (Michigan Zoning Enabling Act), as amended, to consider multiple revisions to the LIVONIA VISION 21 Zoning Ordinance to correct certain defects, add and delete provisions, and provide clarification to others. On a motion by Long ,seconded by Bongero, and unanimously adopted, it was January 31, 2023 30813 #01=07-2023 RESOLVED, That the City Planning Commission, pursuant to Section 13.15 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, and under Public Act 110 of 2006 (Michigan Zoning Enabling Act), as amended, does hereby establish and order that a public hearing be held to consider multiple revisions to the LIVONIA VISION 21 Zoning Ordinance in order to correct certain defects, add and delete provisions, and provide clarification to others. FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 of Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended, and that thereafter there shall be a report and recommendation submitted to the City Council. Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. ITEM #6 APPROVAL OF MINUTES 1,193'd Public Hearings and Regular Meeting Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of the Minutes of the 1,193rd Public Hearing and Regular Meeting held on November 15, 2022, Mr. Wilshaw: Unfortunately, we do not have enough people here tonight that were present at that meeting to approve those minutes. So I believe we only have three, and we get to table it to the 14th. We're going to move that to our next agenda as well where we'll resolve it at that time. Okay. So that takes us to the end of our agenda. Is there any further business to come before the Planning Commission tonight? No, I don't see anybody coming forward. On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 1,194tt' Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held on January 31, 2023; was adjourned at 11:06 p, m. CITY PLANNI G COMMISSION Sam Caeamagno, Secretary ATTEST: % Ian Wilshaw, Chairman