HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MEETING 2014-08-12
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
CITY OF LIVONIA
MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING HELD AUGUST 12, 2014
A Special Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the
Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, August 12, 2014.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Matthew Henzi, Chairman
Sam Caramagno, Secretary
Craig Pastor
Robert Bowling
Robert Sills
Benjamin Schepis
MEMBERS ABSENT: Jason Rhines
OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney
Scott Kearfott, City Inspector
Patricia C. Burklow, CER-8225
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules
of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and
address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are
made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that
appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The
decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the
hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions
the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for
further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member
Board. Six (6) members were present this evening.
The Chairman asked if anyone wished
. The Secretary then read the Agenda
to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so
and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals
came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300
feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 8 people present in the audience.
(7:05)
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 26 August 12, 2014
APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-06-27: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of
Appeals by Michael Barry, 38484 Lancaster, Livonia, Michigan 48154, seeking to
maintain a six foot tall vinyl privacy fence erected upon a corner resulting in such fence
being within the side yard. Privacy fences must end at the rear line of the home and not
in the side or front yard, also, the fence does not align with a fence upon the adjoining
property and the fence being six foot tall.
Privacy Fence Height
Allowed: 5 ft.
Proposed: 6 ft.
Excess: 1 ft.
The property is located on the north side of Lancaster (38484), between Kingsbury and
Knolson, Lot No. 071-01-0108-000, R-3B Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection
Department under Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A, 4bi, 4bii, B, “Residential District
Regulations.”
Henzi: Is there a motion to remove from the table?
Pastor: Mr. Chair, I make a motion to remove.
Caramagno: Support.
Henzi: All in favor say aye.
Board Members: Aye.
Henzi: This is removed, thank you. Mr. Kearfott, anything to add to this case?
Kearfott: Not at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Kearfott: Hearing none, will the petitioner please come to
the table? Good evening.
Barry: Michael Barry, 38484 Lancaster.
Henzi: Go ahead Mr. Barry.
Barry: Since the last hearing we’ve gotten two quotes to see what we could change and
they are very expensive. And they’re--each one is over $2, 000.00. I believe one is over
$3,000.00. We were trying to find a way to make everyone happy and it is just a lot of
money for us to spend because of some neighbors being unhappy. The other thing we’ve
added--I don’t know if you have the photos from the--it’s the neighborhood across from
us in Castle Gardens. Three houses that are--pretty much have the identical fence that
we have. They back up to somebody else’s front yard, the fence goes all the way to the
sidewalk and it’s over six feet. And I would just hope that you could grant the variance
mainly because of the financial difficulties that it would cause us.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 26 August 12, 2014
Henzi: I drove throughout the neighborhoods specifically on Hix. I know that I found three
or four privacy fences but if my memory serves they all--there is the one in the opening
of the sub--forget that one that’s more like a screen.
Barry: Right.
Henzi: So if you go further north there were three--about three privacy fences but those
all were backyards butted up to each other, do you agree?
Barry: Well, yes, I was actually referring to Castle Gardens south of Five Mile that sub--
Henzi: No, I appreciate that.
Barry: Okay--okay.
Henzi: Did I have it correct there are some to the north right on Hix?
Barry: Right
Henzi: Going back to the park--
Barry: Yeah, that’s a back to back one.
Henzi: They are back to back--
Barry: Yeah.
Henzi: And then there is another one--
Barry: Those are the ones for the original hearing we had pictures of, but since then we
did find the ones that backed up to front yards. And those were the newest three pictures.
Henzi: And then the one that exists at Hix and Lancaster that’s the one with the red brick
and then the white posts has that been there--
Barry: The red brick and the black--
Henzi: Black posts, I’m sorry.
Barry: Yeah--yeah.
Henzi: Has that been there for as long as you’ve lived there?
Barry: Yes.
Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the petitioner?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Sir, aside from the quotes you have, have you had any discussions with
your neighbors? I know they were pretty--they were here in force last time including
letters--
Barry: Right.
Caramagno: --and in person. Have you had any discussions with them?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 26 August 12, 2014
Barry: I haven’t personally, my wife discussed with I believe the neighbor behind us her
daughter. They had a discussion but I wasn’t present for that.
Caramagno: So out--you don’t know how it went? Did you talk to your wife, how did it
go?
Barry: I’m not sure, I think she told her it was very expensive. I don’t know if she told her
what the quotes were or--I’m not sure actually what was discussed. I know the neighbor’s
daughter came over and talked about it with my wife but--
Caramagno: I assume that conversation didn’t go well?
Barry: Yeah, I don’t really know. There was no outcome really. No one offered to help
pay or anything like that so.
Caramagno: Okay. So you’ve gotten quotes and the quotes you have are to move it
back and cut the angle on the north east side of--
Barry: There were two, one was just to move it over and one was to move it over 15 feet
and also do an angle to give a better view for them because they were talking about they
had a hard time seeing from their--from their front porch or their driveway. We had seen
that at one of the houses they had it angled in Castle Gardens and we thought it was nice.
Caramagno: Okay, thank you.
Barry: Okay.
Henzi: To follow up on that did you take those drawings to the neighbor, Mrs. Campo?
Barry: No.
Henzi: Okay. Do you know if your wife did?
Barry: I’m not sure.
Henzi: Is your wife here?
Barry: No, she’s sick right now.
Henzi: Okay. Any other questions?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: How much did you pay to have those fences installed?
Barry: Originally?
Pastor: Yeah.
Barry: I believe it was almost $5,000.00, I should have it.
Pastor: You are asking to have one quarter of the fence moved and they are charging
you almost the same for what you paid originally?
Barry: Yeah, because it has to be all new posts, I think--it says on the quote, the
installation of new posts. They--I’m not sure how fences work so that’s--if they can’t reuse
posts but maybe can reuse the panels or--I’m not sure how that works.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 26 August 12, 2014
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions for the petitioner. Hearing none, is there anyone in the
audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the podium.
Maria Mack: Hi name is Maria Mack. I am the Campo’s daughter. Rosario Campo is
here and I am speaking on her behalf because she--her first language is Italian so it will
be a little easier to understand me.
Henzi: Could you say your address before you continue?
Mack: Sure. My address is 1777 Linville and that is in Westland, Michigan.
Henzi: Thank you, go ahead.
Mack: I come to my mom’s every day because she watches my kids throughout the
summer while I am at work. So I am in the sub all the time and we go and visit them all
the time. As in communication with the neighbors, I had personally gone there twice.
Once Mr. Barry was there as well they were out front I stopped there I think it was a
Saturday after we had the first meeting. And conversation went fine we kind of went back
and forth and--you know--communication--because I have never even talked to them
before this fence went up. Then I one other time went over there to talk to her about
when the date got postponed because they didn’t turn in their proposal on time but we
were never notified of the drawings or communicated--nothing was spoken to us about it.
You know--they didn’t even come to ask us like would you be willing to do this or that. So
there was no communication which is I thought kind of why it was put on the table for
them to come to us discuss it and then bring back the plans to you guys. But that didn’t
happen.
Henzi: Did you want to take a look tonight? We can show them to you.
Mack: Are they to code? I mean really that is what we are looking for. I mean that is
what my parents signed the permission to put the fence on thinking City Hall does their--
you know--to code job on that. So I can look at them but I would really like them to code.
You know--the height, the lining with the fence that is currently there, and also the--the
fence right now is in the side yard. I mean it’s not--practically any of it is in their backyard.
It’s just fencing in their whole side yard. So--
Henzi: Do you want to look?
Mack: Sure.
Henzi: They have two proposals, one is going to go this way and then there is that one.
Mack: Okay. And that only goes back fifteen feet which I believe to code is 36 feet.
Henzi: That is what he is proposing, I just wanted to make sure you saw it.
Mack: Well, unfortunately they didn’t come and communicate that to us at all before they
turned it in. You know I don’t feel like my parents should have to be penalized because
of an error that was issued on the permit. And the neighbors started calling on this fence
as soon as it was up before final inspection was called because it was obviously
noticeable because it wasn’t to code.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 26 August 12, 2014
Henzi: Mrs. Mack, I’m sorry to cut you off but I was going to ask you a question--
Mack: Sure.
Henzi: --were you finished?
Mack: Yeah.
Henzi: Did you grow up there?
Mack: Yes, I did.
Henzi: Did you know for how long that fence at Hix and Lancaster has been there?
Mack: For as long as I’ve know--
Henzi: Decades?
Mack: It’s grandfathered in that one black one--
Henzi: Yeah.
Mack: Yeah that’s been there forever.
Henzi: A long time.
Mr. Wozniak: It’s been there for over 43 years--I’ve lived there 43 years.
Mack: Yeah, it’s been there a long time.
Mr. Wozniak: It was there when I moved in.
Mack: And there are several houses with neighbors that I know of off of Hix which is like
the main drag that have come to the City within the last five years and asked for a permit
to put up a privacy fence but because they were losing 36 feet of their yard they decided
not to. There is one a little bit closer to Five Mile off of Hix, that one is to code. It looks
nice, it’s not--when you walk on the sidewalk you don’t feel like there is a wall that close
to the sidewalk. And it doesn’t block anyone’s view even though they don’t really have
anyone that--you know--there is another neighbor there with a driveway so when it was
put in to get done they either had to follow it by code--there is also different types of fences
that could have been put up instead of a privacy fence. I think they call it a barrier type
fence you can see through and all that. So depending on the type of fence you can put
you have different codes that you have to follow. So really today we are here--this has
kind of been delayed long enough to where it is kind of giving my parents kind of heart
ache. They feel bad that they were the ones to sign off on this saying yes I am giving you
permission to put a fence up there. No kind of details were given to them that this type
of fence was going to be put where it is at. You know they figured City Hall’s got certain
codes. When it was put up it was oh my gosh what did I do. You know she felt responsible
for this you know--you know--that’s why we are here. We were here last time, we want
to make sure that this fence gets adjusted to code.
Henzi: Thank you. Mr. Kearfott, I was going to ask you a question before we continue.
Did you happen to measure that fence at Hix and Lancaster? To me it looked shorter
than six feet but I didn’t measure it.
Kearfott: I did not measure it.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 26 August 12, 2014
Henzi: Did you even notice whether it was shorter or the same?
Kearfott: The fence in question that we are talking about?
Henzi: No, the one with the red brick and the black--
Kearfott: No, I did not.
Henzi: Okay. All right, thank you.
Christopher Martin: Christopher Martin, 12275 Inkster Road, Livonia, 48150. I look at a
lot of privacy fences and I drove by and looked at this one and there is quite a number of
them in Livonia. I think the issue is--and I’m going to go through you Chairman because
it’s six foot at the rear--along the rear lot line pretty much. And but in the side yard can’t
you have a five foot? Isn’t that in--and you’re only coming in front of the Zoning Board to
go from five to six? Isn’t there a five foot allowed in the side yard? Would Scott know
that?
Henzi: With having--my understanding is you are correct that five feet is allowed but
having it in the side yard also requires the variance.
Martin: Okay.
Henzi: That is where we are at a cross road with this house because unlike others where
you’ve got two privacy fences--
Martin: Yeah abutting.
Henzi: --that back up, you’ve got another family that when they are looking out their front
porch with a fence in their yard.
Martin: But the six foot is to code along pretty much the rear lot line?
Henzi: Yeah, just to figure out what’s the rear is the issue.
Martin: Okay, well I think it looks great to be quite honest with you. I went by there and
it looked like a child’s playscape thing in the back yard so I can understand it. The guy
has a lot of money tied up in it. There was a sign advertisement for a sign (sic) company
out of Canton and so I guess the issue is if they put it up--what was the issue if that’s the
business that they are in putting up fences correctly. So I wouldn’t want the young man
being punished for an error that the fence company did, but at the same time there’s a lot
of privacy fences six foot in the side yard of a corner lot. And it’s--seems to be quite a bit
that he already spent to have the thing put up in the beginning. And--so I would just leave
it the way it is okay. If--so that’s what I would be recommending just let it go.
Henzi: Thank you. Does anybody else want to speak?
Ronald Wozniak: Good evening, my name is Ronald Wozniak. I live at 38522 Kingsbury.
My wife and I have lived there for 43 years. Mr. Barry has done a little trick. He has put
a globe on top of his fence and increased the height of his fence to seven feet all inclusive.
Now he has the only seven foot tall fence on a corner yard. But he still isn’t done. He
then put a seven foot fence on his neighbor’s front lawn. It’s never been done before.
Amazing. How did he do it? By using an authorization form but not using it for the purpose
intended. He also has a permit that gives him the right to build a six foot fence. How did
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 26 August 12, 2014
he get a permit to build a six foot fence on a five foot corner yard? Unbelievable--amazing.
But Mr. Barry has a little--Mr. Barry was a little greedy. He wants a taller fence. He adds
a globe--he adds a globe to increase the height to seven feet. Bingo he did the
impossible. He did not use the permit for the purpose intended six feet. The one I haven’t
figured out is how did he get an authorization form and a permit with the right to build a
six foot fence on a corner yard--excuse me--on a corner yard which has a five foot height
limit. Do you think because of these facts the authorization form and the permit should
be revoked? An authorization form. The authorization form has several irregularities on
it. It has a height of six feet but the corner lot has a five foot height limit. Mrs. Campo
said she was told it would be five feet. It is not signed by the Barry’s, why not and for
what reason? There is only one signature on it, Mrs. Campo. But the house is owned by
two people. There is a printed name on it but no initials. No letter of authority for another
person to be their agent. Who printed this name and what was the reason? The form
and the signature and the printed name has not been notarized. Why wasn’t it notarized?
Do you think the facts presented is sufficient to revoke the authorization form? There is
a variance and comparables. I have given each of you a packet with two forms and
pictures of comparable private fences within three blocks of the Barry’s fence. The Barry’s
fence is too big and too tall and it blocks the line of sight to main streets. Also, it blocks
the line of sight to south and north bound traffic, the sidewalk and eastbound traffic. It
has created safety issues. With scenarios like--with scenarios very likely true this big
fence has also destroyed the aesthetics and the beauty of our beautiful neighborhood.
Mr. Barry has hurt a lot of people in the immediate area because of his actions property
values will drop. Mrs. Campo’s house has lost its curb appeal and probably $10,000.00
in value and is harder to sell. The Campo family have a difficult time backing out of the
driveway because the fence blocks the view and she can’t see northbound traffic. Now
the three comparable fences within three blocks, the Barry fence--wait a minute--now the
three comparable fences within the three blocks of the Barry fence. All three used the
City code to build their privacy fence. When you compare the three I am sure you will
agree with me that they don’t block the line of sight to the next street. That they don’t
destroy the beauty and aesthetics of the neighborhood. And there are no safety issues.
House number one is at Hix and Roycroft Court. House number two is at Hix and
Lancaster. House number three is at Lancaster and Lancaster Court. House number
four is Lancaster and Kingsbury that is Mrs.--Mr. Barry’s house. Now safety. The seven
foot fence on a corner on Lancaster and Kingsbury has created safety issues for two
streets. Those streets have a 25 mile an hour speed limit. South bound cars cannot see
eastbound cars on Lancaster in time to stop. South bound cars on Kingsbury used to
have 258 feet line of sight to Lancaster but the privacy fence it has been reduced to 38
feet. Also, there are children riding bikes and roller skating on the sidewalk. I saw two
little girls the other day with bikes and roller skates on the sidewalk, they are hard to see
now. Another issue is Mrs. Campo’s grandchildren. They play in the front yard and north
bound cars can’t see them and they can’t see the traffic. The Campo family have a difficult
time backing out of their driveway because they can’t see the northbound traffic. Because
of all the safety created by this seven foot tall privacy fence on a corner yard with a five
foot height limit, do you think this fence should be taken down so no children get hurt or
killed at either location and no car accidents happen? The Barry mistakes. The Barry’s
have made a lot of mistakes and hurt a lot of people. They have used bad judgment in
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 26 August 12, 2014
this whole story. The Barry’s have refused to do anything to correct the problem except
blame the City and want them to pay for the mistake they made. The people in the
immediate area must be made whole. There must not be a half measure it must be total
and complete. Thank you. Are there any questions?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Can you explain to me the difference between picture number two and picture
number four? I look at both theses fences and they are both about a foot or so off the
sidewalk on a side yard piece of property. I don’t really understand what you are--
Mr. Wozniak: Picture two and picture four?
Pastor: Yep.
Henzi: House two.
Mr. Wozniak: I don’t have the pictures in front of me.
Pastor: House two, did you not distribute these?
Mr. Wozniak: This is picture two? This is the fence--
Pastor: Can you explain to me the difference between the fences because they are
almost a foot and a half off the sidewalk both of them.
Mr. Wozniak: What does a foot and a half off the sidewalk got to do with anything?
Pastor: You are trying to compare fences--
Mr. Wozniak: This is picture four, okay where is picture two. Okay, can you--okay now-
-were trying to--this fence right here the white fence, picture four--
Pastor: Yep.
Mr. Wozniak: --is seven feet tall with the globes on top--with the globes on top.
Pastor: You mean the points?
Mr. Wozniak: No, it’s a globe. They put the globes on top and when you measure it--no-
-when you measure it from grade it is seven feet tall all inclusive.
Pastor: But we don’t count--we don’t count the top of the post. You count the fence.
Mr. Wozniak: all right, okay. This other fence here is five and a half feet tall. This black
fence here with the--
Pastor: We are talking about the location of the fences. The location of the fences are
very similar, they are right next to the sidewalk.
Mr. Wozniak: So what are you talking about?
Pastor: You are okay with this one but you are not okay with this one?
Mr. Wozniak: This is seven feet tall on a five foot property--
Pastor: It is not seven feet tall, sir.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 26 August 12, 2014
Mr. Wozniak: I measured it okay?
Pastor: You are measuring it at the highest point-
Mr. Wozniak: No I didn’t--no I didn’t. I measured it to the top of the globe. Half of those
globes are--
Mary Wozniak: Yes he did.
Mr. Wozniak: Excuse me Mary. Half of those globes are 6 feet 10 inches and then the
other half are 7 feet.
Pastor: Those globes are not what we measure off of, we measure off the top of the
fence. Not the top of the post.
Mr. Wozniak: Well then it is 6 foot 4 inches on a five foot--five foot height limit lot.
Pastor: I’m not sure what you are saying about that.
Mr. Wozniak: It’s a corner lot and it is a five foot height limit. A five foot height limit even
if it is six foot four, it’s on a lot that has a five foot height limit. Even if I agree with you
about that.
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? Thank you. Ma’am did you want to say something?
Mr. Wozniak: May I borrow that in case I have some more questions. I only had so many.
Thank you, ma’am. Anything else?
Henzi: Did you want to make a comment, ma’am?
Mr. Wozniak: Did you want to make a comment?
Mary Wozniak: I just want to say I was there with him. We both measured it and I was
the first one to call you guys that time they were putting posts up what they’re doing and
nobody showed up from the--they should have stopped him and told him he can’t do it.
And whoever gave him a permit should have explained to Mr. Barry that he could only do
that. But evidently none of that was done. And I’m sure he had a lawyer. His lawyer
should have explained to him and the man that put it up so I’m sure they knew about it.
They didn’t care if they were going to hurt the feelings of a lady that has been nothing but
nice to them. She gave them permission so they could put the fence up. And she’s been
crying ever since they put the fence up because she is very unhappy. And her house it
doesn’t look like anything. She called it a teepee, that’s what she called her house. Now
that’s what it looks like from far. And it looks messy and her house is beautiful, it’s
immaculate. And they didn’t have no feelings for them what they’re going to feel. And
you know when they are backing out of the back--out of their driveway, they can’t see it.
And some of these kids are coming on roller blades or whatever. And if they’re coming
too fast she could hit them and then you are going to be responsible for it. So I don’t think
you guys are very fair with Mrs. Campo at all so we came to her rescue. And every time
I get up in the morning I look up and you know what out I see a big giant truck, that’s what
it looks like. I had AT&T guy come over and fix our DVD and he says what’s that Fort
Knox doing up there. And I said “What Fort Knox?” He meant their fence. And he says
what are they hiding, are they drug dealers. And that’s when I called I said heck I’m not
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 26 August 12, 2014
going to--you know--I am going to fight this, I don’t want that fence. I do not like it and it
looks terrible.
Henzi: What’s your name and address?
Mary Wozniak: Thank you very much for listening to me.
Henzi: Your name and address please?
Mary Wozniak: My name is Mary Wozniak, I’m his wife.
Henzi: Thank you.
Mary Wozniak: And I’ve lived there 43 years and we’ve never had a problem with the
house that they call--they are afraid that they will--what is it a group people living? As far
as I knew there were two handicap people living there and Mrs. Gilbert owned the house.
I’ve been there 43 years and her daughter is a doctor and she adopted one of the
handicapped kids. And the handicapped--wherever they go for therapy or something--
she met another guy so about three years ago--thirty years ago maybe twenty years ago
there was an article in the paper that the two handicapped got married and it was their
picture in the wheelchair. And then the people--Gilberts, when they got married they
moved in the other person. Mrs. Gilbert and her husband I don’t know what they did if
they sold the house or gave it to the State and we have never seen them out except to
go into the car or out of the car. And earlier when Mr. Gilbert and Mrs. Gilbert had the
daughter--you know the handicapped daughter she used to walk with her and go down
the street. But these people never do anything so I don’t know why they are afraid of
them.
Henzi: Thank you.
Mary Wozniak: I think that is wrong because it could happen to their kids someday.
Henzi: Thank you.
Mary Wozniak: That’s all and I thank you and I am sorry for interrupting.
Henzi: That’s okay. Is there anybody else that wants to speak for or against the project?
Mr. Wozniak: Thank you very much, Mr. Hines (sic).
Henzi: Sure. Seeing no one else coming forward, can you read the letters?
Caramagno: Yes. Letters of approval from Frances Seager, 38523 Kingsbury (letter
read), Rachel and Harold Eklund, 38608 Lancaster Court (letter read), letters of objection
from Anthony D’Agnositino, 38594 Lancaster Court (letter read), Philip Heyer, 38469
Kingsbury (letter read), David and Deborah Zeigler, 38697 Lancaster (letter read),
Jerrilann McCormick, 15541 Hix (letter read), Lori Gorecki and Glen Stevens, 38468
Kingsbury (letter read), and Lillian Marinelli, 38504 Kingsbury (letter read).
Henzi: Mr. Barry, is there anything you would like to say in closing?
Barry: No, thanks.
Henzi: Okay, I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments
with Mr. Bowling.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 26 August 12, 2014
Bowling: I guess it is a difficult situation and I can see both sides of the coin. I can see
the Campo’s difficulty with this fence in that it is definitely blocking their view and not
something I think I would want in my yard. But I also have sympathy for Mr. Barry for the
fact that he got a permit and it was approved and installed in accordance with the permit
he was granted.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Well we tabled this case so that Mr. Barry could go to the neighbors and talk to
them, he failed to do so. And I have a hard time approving something that we asked him
to do something and he basically ignored it and I’m not sure if I can support this or not. I
didn’t care for it the first time I saw it and I haven’t heard any good reasons. And just so
you know Mr. Barry, we cannot take financial hardship into consideration in our decisions.
Mr. Barry: Okay.
Pastor: So, I don’t think I can support this but I haven’t made up my mind yet.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: This is a tough case there is no doubt about that. When we asked for this
to be tabled I also would have liked to seen some more discussion--honest discussion
between Barry and the neighbors. And I know that that might have been difficult -- those
type of conversations are hard to have. Yet I don’t think anyone was pounding on your
door to have a conversation with you, either.
Barry: Right.
Caramagno: I--
Maria Mack: Excuse me--
Caramagno: --I would like to have heard from your wife today if she can’t be here
obviously she can’t be here. I just--I’m troubled by the fact that you have so much
opposition in the neighborhood yet you have a signed agreement and I looked back at
the old notes--while Mrs. Campo’s daughter wasn’t there to sign or to review it does
appear--and I’ve not heard anybody object to the fact that Mrs. Campo’s son was there
and explained it to her. So I haven’t heard anybody state anything that--why wasn’t he a
legitimate person to explain to his mother. So, I see that in here and there is another
thing that I see that Mr. Barry you don’t like to rock the boat either but there just wasn’t
an aggressive go after the neighbors and come to a solution here. I didn’t see that either.
We gave you a permit, you put the fence up as you were told you could, as of right now
in my mind it’s got to stay.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: Well I agree with a lot of the comments that Mr. Pastor and Mr. Caramagno made
but I don’t see any support from your neighbors which kind of leans me towards the
neighborhood. I don’t like to see a fence put in in position that is out of ordinance. It’s
too high to begin with, it should be lowered. It ends at the middle of the house it should
be at the back of the house. So I don’t think I can support this petition at all.
Henzi: Mr. Schepis.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 26 August 12, 2014
Schepis: Again I agree with a lot that has been said. Obviously there are two--two strong
sides on this and Mr. Barry had a permit but again the number objections to this is hard
to overcome.
Henzi: This is very difficult because neither side in my opinion did anything wrong but
both sides--well I guess one side or the other is going to lose and it is not fair. My--
generally speaking I would say that I do not like to force a fence on somebody but I would
say in most cases where one abutting land owner wants the fence and the other doesn’t
it is a neighbor dispute. It is because they can’t stand each other and the objection is out
of spite and I don’t see that here. I think this is kind of a perfect storm and through no
fault of Mr. Barry he put an expensive fence up and now you know is having the City tell
him to tear it down or get a variance. So for me I agree that permission was given but it’s
been revoked I mean there is no other way to put it. I believe Mrs. Campo’s daughter
when she said Mrs. Campo didn’t understand. I have to believe that is true, they’ve been
at both meetings. And I never heard anything from Mr. Barry to suggest otherwise. So
that causes me to look at all the other privacy fences in the neighborhood and my
conclusion is that none of them exist like what is being proposed. There are other privacy
fences specifically there is one at Hix and Lancaster but that house has a side yard fence
that doesn’t intrude on the other neighbor’s front yard, it is set another way. The house
on Hix--15501 backs up to 38434 Kingsbury so that fence is not in somebody’s front yard.
The fences that are further to the north on Hix same thing. They are two properties that
back up to each other and they each have privacy fences. This is the only one that I can
find like it. The only thing close to it is the one right by Five Mile at Hix and Roycroft. And
that fence is more like a screen it doesn’t come all the way out as far as Mr. Barry
proposes. So although I do it reluctantly because I think it was unfair the way Mr. Barry
was treated in having to get the fence up, I can’t approve it and I’ll vote no. I think that
his options are to put up a chain link or build essentially what his neighbors at Hix and--
I’m sorry--yeah--Hix and Roycroft have. The floor is open for a motion.
Caramagno: It looks like somebody has to grab that no--
Henzi: Anyone?
Caramagno: --right?
Henzi: Right, it looks like--
Caramagno: Somebody has to grab that no.
Henzi: It looks like no.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Upon Motion by Pastor supported by Sills, it was:
RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-06-27:
An appeal has been made to the Zoning
Board of Appeals by Michael Barry, 38484 Lancaster, Livonia, Michigan 48154, seeking to
maintain a six foot tall vinyl privacy fence erected upon a corner resulting in such fence being
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 26 August 12, 2014
within the side yard. Privacy fences must end at the rear line of the home and not in the side or
front yard, also, the fence does not align with a fence upon the adjoining property and the fence
being six foot tall.
Privacy Fence Height
Allowed: 5 ft.
Proposed: 6 ft.
Excess: 1 ft.
The property is located on the north side of Lancaster (38484), between Kingsbury and Knolson,
Lot No. 071-01-0108-000, R-3B Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under
be denied
Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A, 4bi, 4bii, B, “Residential District Regulations,”
for the following reasons and finding of fact:
1. The petitioner has not demonstrated a practical difficulty.
2. The uniqueness requirement has not been met.
3. The proposed variance would not do substantial justice on neighboring properties
and is not in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance.
4. The proposed variance is not consistent with the City’s Master Plan.
5. That the petitioner has ninety (90) days to remove the fence.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Pastor, Sills, Schepis, Henzi
NAYS: Bowling, Caramagno
ABSENT: Rhines
Henzi: The variance was denied. You’ve got 90 days in which to comply and take it
down.
Maria Mack: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 26 August 12, 2014
APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-08-42 An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of
Appeals by LIVCOM, LLC, 9986 Manchester Road, St. Louis, MO 63122, on behalf of
the lessee Rally House Stores, Inc., 9750 Quivira Road, Lenexa, KS 66215, seeking to
erect two wall signs (one on the east elevation and one on the north elevation) on the
end tenant space which abuts two major thoroughfares, result in excess sign area.
Wall Sign Area:
Allowed: 129 sq. ft.
(86 sq. ft. east elevation; 43 sq. ft. north elevation)
Proposed: 290 sq. ft.
(200 sq. ft. east elevation; 90 sq. ft. north elevation)
Excess: 161 sq. ft.
The property is located on the west side of Middlebelt (13525) between Industrial and
Schoolcraft, Lot No. 101-99-0004-002, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection
Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 18.50H(b)2, “Sign Regulations in
C-1, C-2, C-3, and C-4 Districts,”
Henzi: Mr. Kearfott, anything to add to this case?
Kearfott: Not at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, good evening.
Deters: Good evening. My name is Paul Deters, I’m with Metro Detroit Signs, 23544
Hoover Road in Warren.
Henzi: Mr. Deters, go ahead and tell us about the proposed Rally House signs.
Deters: Terrific and thank you for your consideration this evening. We are here to ask
for two wall signs, one--it’s an end unit as you can see there in a new development.
And Rally House is new to this market and what they are trying to do is establish their
brand here. The proposed signs that we have do exceed what the ordinance allows but
we think they are in scale relative to the size of the building. All of the tenants that are
going in in this development are all large storefronts and I think the sign when you
consider how it’s shaped and what it looks like on that façade is appropriate in size.
And it’s also--probably the actual sign area is actually less than what it would be if it
were not boxed off. There is quite a bit of dead area that is included in the calculation
but I understand that’s one of the means of how the ordinance calculates that. And
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 26 August 12, 2014
we’d ask the Board’s consideration here if you could this evening--well the reasons we
think it’s important to have this is not only are we a long distance from the road but it’s
over 350 feet from Middlebelt. The other consideration is that there is an out building
going in front of us there and it is going to be a little bit difficult for folks to see this. So
having that identification would be very beneficial for us. I also have with me here this
evening is Mr. John Malnar who is the national construction manager for Rally House
and he can address any concerns that you might have as well this evening.
Henzi: I have a couple of questions for you and then I might ask you to turn over to
your colleague.
Deters: Sure.
Henzi: You talked about the fact that there is dead space. Have you calculated the
approximate square footage you believe is dead space?
Deters: It’s about a third of it.
Henzi: Are you saying that it’s been calculated at sort of a rectangle but you don’t have
a rectangle?
Deters: That’s correct because it is an irregular shaped piece.
Henzi: So that area above the flags and then--
Deters: There’s a peak--
Henzi: --below Michigan?
Deters: --a gabled peak at the top and the bottom creates some dead area as well.
And then--
Henzi: Okay.
Deters: --on the left and right sides of that so.
Henzi: Is this--I don’t know if you can answer this but is this the prototype sign, this is
what every Rally House--
Malnar: This is our national logo.
Henzi: Okay. Can you say your name for the record?
Malnar: My name is John Malnar, I’m the construction manager for Rally House.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 26 August 12, 2014
Henzi: Okay. And then the next question was maybe to me one of your most
compelling arguments is that future restaurant do you know whether there is a deal for
that restaurant to be constructed?
Malnar: They are negotiating it as we speak.
Henzi: Is it going to be fast food, counter service, fast casual or don’t you know?
Malnar: I don’t have--I’m not privy to those negotiations at this point.
Henzi: Got it. Okay, any other questions?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: The Chair asked you if this was your standard sign, is this the standard sized
sign that you use nationally?
Malnar: This sign is actually smaller than what we are using nationally.
Pastor: How many stores do you have nationally because I am not familiar with the
logo?
Malnar: We’ve got 39 stores total at this--at present time.
Pastor: Are any in Michigan?
Malnar: Yes, we just opened one in Shelby Township. We opened one in Baldwin
Commons out in Orion. And we also opened one in Michigan over at Grand--in Grand
Rapids.
Pastor: And you are saying all those signs are bigger then this?
Malnar: Not every one of them is bigger than this but our major prototype sign is larger
than this yes.
Pastor: How many are smaller than this?
Malnar: I’d say about a third of them are smaller than this.
Pastor: What size are those signs?
Malnar: They’re over--they are over 20--they are right in the 20 foot to 15 foot range
somewhere in that vicinity.
Pastor: I’m sorry, could you say that again please?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 26 August 12, 2014
Malnar: Somewhere between 15 and 20 feet.
Pastor: You mean in length?
Malnar: In length, height is 9 foot 8. They are pretty much consistent in height,
somewhere between 72 and about 6 feet and 9 feet in height. It also basically is our
national logo on this is basically looked as to the scale of the sign on the building too.
So that dictates a lot as to what it looks like too.
Pastor: I’m going to tell what my heart ache is right now, you are asking for over 100
percent above our ordinance. And I have a real heartache with that. I don’t think I’ve
ever approved a sign with that much excess.
Malnar: Well if you look on a--if you look at our tenants that are in line with us if we go
back to what the original was in this, we will have a small sign on the lot and we are
being penalized I think in my opinion for having a smaller space. I mean--
Pastor: That’s the nature of the ordinance.
Malnar: It is the nature of the ordinance but we’re still over 400 feet off Middlebelt.
We’re a 142 feet off there by the time you take our sign and you take what--what it
actually views at when you look at it at that distance it is comparably smaller and it is
hard for us to brand our product in that nature.
Pastor: But then you are asking for two of them, I mean it’s--
Malnar: Well I’m flexible here, I’d like to have something out of this. I mean--
Pastor: Make a suggestion.
Malnar: We can do a smaller sign on the side and a larger on the front I mean we have
some options here.
Pastor: What are those options?
Malnar: Excuse me?
Pastor: What are those options?
Malnar: You have any suggestions?
Deters: Is there something that the Board would say that you feel that might be--
Pastor: I don’t feel I should negotiate against myself.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 26 August 12, 2014
Deters: I understand that but relative for what you are trying to see for the center. And
as you can see too it’s relative to Dick’s Sporting Goods might have. They just have a
couple of letters and that’s their brand whereas Rally House’s logo it’s a lot more letters
and includes the flags and they want to say its part--have the State of Michigan on it.
So we are trying to see something when you look at it how this sign would read relative
to the Dick’s signs reads is probably not even as intrusive as that. But the lettering is
quite a bit smaller so.
Pastor: Also a smaller space thus less signage. I mean that’s kind of an apple and
orange thing.
Deters: I understand.
Pastor: I haven’t heard anything--
Deters: Would you--would you be okay with a 150 square feet on the front?
Pastor: I’m asking what you guys can live with.
Milner: Why don’t we try a 150 square feet for the front sign and 75 square feet for the
side sign?
Pastor: I’m sorry 75 for the side?
Milner: Seventy-five for the side and a 150 feet to the front.
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: Mr. Kearfott I have a question for you. Do you agree with the petitioner’s
argument that there is some dead space because the square footage is calculated
based on a rectangle? I guess what I am asking is have we already accounted for that?
Kearfott: What do you mean for the dead space? Do you mean the--
Henzi: I mean the space--
Kearfott: Have we accounted for that?
Henzi: Yeah, does the rectangle measure exactly--I’m sorry does the--
Kearfott: The way I read it, it is a nine foot eight tall rectangle by twenty foot nine inches
long rectangle.
Henzi: All right so you did rectangle it out.
Kearfott: There is dead space in there but--you know--that’s their design of their sign.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 26 August 12, 2014
Henzi: I get it. They say that the dead space is a third of that. Do you agree or
disagree or can’t you tell?
Kearfott: I can’t tell just by looking at it without doing all the calculations.
Henzi: Okay.
Kearfott: But I agree there is definitely some dead space.
Henzi: Okay.
Kearfott: Whether it is a third or not I don’t know.
Henzi: Fair enough, thank you. Any other questions?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Do you folks have any spots on the monument sign?
Malnar: No, I don’t believe we do.
Caramagno: You’re not going to have any spots on a free standing sign out by the
road?
Malnar: At this point we do not have a spot on the monument sign, I believed those are
spoken for for the bigger tenants.
Caramagno: Those are spoken for for bigger tenants already?
Malnar: Yes.
Caramagno: Thank you.
Pastor: Am I missing something on the monument sign?
Caramagno: I seen something in here I think for the overall property.
Henzi: Are you certain about that, because we’ve seen a proposed monument signs
that--
Malnar: There is a monument sign and I’m aware of that but in our lease we are not
privy to that sign.
Caramagno: Okay.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 26 August 12, 2014
Pastor: Neither one because there are two of them on the property, a monument and a
pylon.
Malnar: Correct we are not privy to those.
Pastor: Okay.
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none and I see no one in the audience are there
letters on this case?
Pastor: Mr. Chair I have a question.
Caramagno: No.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor go ahead.
Pastor: I’m sorry. I counted ten spaces on the monument and pylon sign and there are
only seven places here why wouldn’t you be on that sign?
Malnar: I believe part of that is for the smaller tenants too and the free standing building
out front that is going up is my opinion, I am not positive of this but that is my opinion.
The bigger tenants at the back of the space to the Joanns, Dicks, I believe there are
another two or three spaces that are scheduled to go in the rest of the center.
Pastor: Okay, so you are saying this building out front is going to take up some of the
signage. Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? Gentlemen, is there anything you would like to say in
closing?
Malnar: Not really.
Henzi: Okay, thank you. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s
comments with Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: This is a large excess but it is also a decent size building. They do have two
elevations. They have come down somewhat on their square footage and I do
appreciate that. So I think I could support this.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: I’ll be in support with the adjusted square footage as mentioned at 150
and 75. You do have a great distance to Middlebelt Road and you are not using any
monument space so I feel that it’s a--what you’ve adjusted here is fine.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 26 August 12, 2014
Sills: I will also support the petition.
Henzi: Mr. Schepis.
Schepis: I would agree.
Henzi: Mr. Bowling.
Bowling: I would also be in support of the smaller sign.
Henzi: I too will support it and just for your information to the petitioners there have
been other businesses along this newly developed area that have come before the
Board that have gotten excesses including probably your competitor, Culvers, and the
excess was far less than what you are asking for. So I think you did the right thing. You
are never going to get what was originally proposed but what you did propose I think
was very reasonable and I think it will look nice. I do think there is dead space and you
shouldn’t--you know--that should be taken into consideration just by nature of the logo
you’re not Fudruckers where it’s one long rectangle, it’s different than that and I
understand that. So I think it’s a very nice looking sign and I look forward to seeing the
business. So the floor is open for a motion.
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Upon Motion by Caramagno supported by Pastor, it was:
RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-08-42 An appeal has been made to the
Zoning Board of Appeals by LIVCOM, LLC, 9986 Manchester Road, St. Louis, MO
63122, on behalf of the lessee Rally House Stores, Inc., 9750 Quivira Road, Lenexa,
KS 66215, seeking to erect two wall signs (one on the east elevation and one on the
north elevation) on the end tenant space which abuts two major thoroughfares, result in
excess sign area.
Wall Sign Area:
Allowed: 129 sq. ft.
(86 sq. ft. east elevation; 43 sq. ft. north elevation)
Proposed: 290 sq. ft.
(200 sq. ft. east elevation; 90 sq. ft. north elevation)
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 26 August 12, 2014
Excess: 161 sq. ft.
As revised by the Board with Petitioner’s concurrence:
Wall Sign Area:
Allowed: 129 sq. ft.
(86 sq. ft. east elevation; 43 sq. ft. north elevation)
Proposed: 225 sq. ft.
(150 sq. ft. east elevation; 75 sq. ft. north elevation)
Excess: 96 sq. ft.
The property is located on the west side of Middlebelt (13525) between Industrial and
Schoolcraft, Lot No. 101-99-0004-002, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection
Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 18.50H(b)2, “Sign Regulations in
be granted as modified for the following reasons
C-1, C-2, C-3, and C-4 Districts,”
and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of the distance the business is
located off Middlebelt Road.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because a restaurant will be opening in front of Petitioner’s building blocking
Petitioner’s business.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the
spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the similar variances have been
granted for businesses in that corridor and it will allow Petitioner to advertise
their business.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 26 August 12, 2014
4. The Board received no letters of approval and no letters of objection from
neighboring property owners.
5. The property is classified as “industrial” in the Master Plan and the proposed
variance is not inconsistent with that classification.
FURTHER,
This variance is granted with the following conditions:
1. That the sign be constructed as presented as revised by the Board with
Petitioner’s concurrence:
Wall Sign Area:
Allowed: 129 sq. ft.
(86 sq. ft. east elevation; 43 sq. ft. north elevation)
Proposed: 225 sq. ft.
(150 sq. ft. east elevation; 75 sq. ft. north elevation)
Excess: 96 sq. ft.
2. That the signs be in compliance with the requirements of the Livonia City
Council.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Bowling, Schepis, Sills, Henzi
NAYS: None
ABSENT: Rhines
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 26 August 12, 2014
Henzi: The variance is granted with two conditions. You’ve got to build it as presented
with the amended sizes as we discussed, 150 square feet on the Middlebelt side and 75
square feet on the Schoolcraft side. And then we incorporated the City Council’s
requirements as set forth at the December 16, 2013 meeting.
Malnar: Okay.
Henzi: Good luck.
Malnar: Thank you very much.
Deters: Thank you very much.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 26 August 12, 2014
Pastor: We have minutes to approve and I wasn’t here.
th
Henzi: June 17?
Caramagno: Was I here?
Henzi: Yes.
th
Caramagno: I’ll make the motion to approve the June 17, 2014 minutes.
Henzi: Is there support?
Sills: Support.
Upon Motion by Caramagno supported by Sills the minutes from the June 17, 2014
were approved.
Henzi: Is there a motion to adjourn?
Pastor: I’ll make a motion to adjourn.
Henzi: Is there support?
Caramagno: Support.
Henzi: All in favor say aye.
Board Members: Aye.
There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned at
8:10 p.m.
__________________________
SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary
___________________________
MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman
/pcb
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 26 August 12, 2014