HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MEETING 2014-07-29
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
CITY OF LIVONIA
MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING HELD JULY 29, 2014
A Special Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the
Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, July 29, 2014.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Matthew Henzi, Chairman
Sam Caramagno, Secretary
Craig Pastor
Jason Rhines
Benjamin Schepis
MEMBERS ABSENT: Robert Bowling
Robert Sills
OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney
Dennis DeMeyer, City Inspector
Patricia C. Burklow, CER-8225
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules
of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and
address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are
made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that
appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The
decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the
hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions
the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for
further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member
Board. Five (5) members were present this evening.
The Chairman asked if anyone wished
. The Secretary then read the Agenda
to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so
and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals
came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300
feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 11 people present in the audience.
(7:05)
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 55 July 29, 2014
APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-07-38 An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of
Appeals by Jerome Maxwell, 34479 Woodvale, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct a
detached garage while maintaining an attached garage, resulting in excess number of
garages and garage area.
Number of Garages: Garage Area:
Allowed: one Allowed: 660 sq. ft.
Proposed: two Proposed: 740 sq. ft.
Excess: one (340 sq. ft. proposed)
Excess: 80 sq. ft.
The property is located on the south side of Woodvale (34479) between Alpine and
Ashurst, Lot No. 063-06-0017-000, R-3 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection
Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 2.10(5) “Definition of
Miscellaneous Terms” and 18.24 “Residential Accessory Building.”
Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, do you have anything to add to this case?
DeMeyer: Not at this time, Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the petitioner
please come to the table? Good evening.
Michelle Maxwell: Name and address?
Jerome Maxwell: Jerome Maxwell, 34479 Woodvale. And my wife, Michelle Maxwell,
same address.
Henzi: Okay, go ahead and tell us about the second garage you would like to build.
Mr. Maxwell: We would like to put a second garage at the end of our driveway. I’ve
provided the drawings here if you look at the plot plan. The garage would be at the end
of the driveway at the rear of the backyard. And it’s 20 feet deep by 17 wide.
Henzi: Could you talk about the building materials you plan to use?
Mr. Maxwell: I would like it to match the house. If you look at--I’ve got some CAD images
of the garage as proposed. And the way that I have it designed I have it so from the front
view the pitch--the slope of the pitch roof is going to be identical to the pitch of the garage
on the existing house to try and blend it in as nice as possible. And if the Board wants
we can put a brick face on the garage or whatever you guys want to make it look appealing
to the neighbors.
Henzi: Have you considered adding on to the existing? You know make your two car
garage a three car or something like that?
Mr. Maxwell: We have but it--
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 55 July 29, 2014
Mrs. Maxwell: We don’t have the space, we would have to bring it toward the street in
order to do that and I don’t think the--I think there is a problem with the zoning as well
bringing it more toward the street.
Henzi: You think you’d infringe on the front yard setback?
Mrs. Maxwell: I do yes.
Mr. Maxwell: Yes.
Henzi: Okay. Can you tell us why you need the extra storage?
Mr. Maxwell: The current garage is a 20 by 20. The home is--it is a Pulte home built in
1987 and the garage, 20 by 20, is really too tight for two cars to begin with. And we have
two young--we have two children, a boy who is 13 and a daughter who is 9. As they get
older they are going to be driving, we will need room for an additional car and the garage-
-the current garage itself we store bikes, lawnmowers--we have no shed on the property
currently and we don’t plan on building an additional shed we just want this additional
garage here. That would take--it would serve as a shed/ garage. The problem with the
current set up we have it’s really too tight with the kids equipment, the lawnmower and
snow blower and stuff in there. And we’ve scratched the cars--we want to get both cars
in. Every winter we get both cars in that garage but I literally have a half inch on my side
with my mirror to the garage door and everything else alongside of it. I tore a mirror off
last winter and a couple years back Michelle scratched her car getting in and out of it. So
it’s an--it’s a problem with the size of the garage. And we’ve always--we’ve been there
since 1990 and I’ve always said we need additional storage but we haven’t acted on it. I
don’t want a shed in the backyard because I don’t think it looks that good. So I think this
would--this plan would fit in real well and it would flow real well with the house and it would
serve our needs for the additional storage space. With our son who is 13 he will be driving
in two years and he will have a third car and the way the house is set up we are on a tee
intersection there is really no safe place to park in front of the house.
Mrs. Maxwell: Yeah, our issue is to park in front of the house in the tee intersection we’ve
had problems in the winter with people riding up on our lawn, knocking over mail boxes,
coming around the corner of the street. So that is a concern. Across the street from our
house there is a fire hydrant so we can’t park our car--our extra car over there. And the
neighbor next to us our driveway is attached to each other so there is no place to park
our car without parking in front of the neighbor’s house. So as we get extra cars in the
family it is just really difficult for us to have a place to park that is safe where we can keep
it in a garage and not keep it outside where it could get damaged or broken into.
Mr. Maxwell: And parking that extra car in the driveway would be a problem too because
it is a side entry garage and you need that whole driveway to make that turn into the
garage. So it’s--
Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the petitioners?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: How many cars do you currently have now?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 55 July 29, 2014
Mr. Maxwell: Two.
Mrs. Maxwell: Two.
Pastor: Didn’t I see it looked like a specialty car in your garage?
Mr. Maxwell: No, I have a specialty car but I only have it there from April to September.
I have a garage in South Lyon that car goes in every winter.
Mrs. Maxwell: Right.
Mr. Maxwell: That car will not be in this third garage--or this extra--or this second garage.
Pastor: Okay.
Mr. Maxwell: So right now when you drive by the house you will see a beautiful car in the
right side of the garage that is my specialty car, that’s there from April to September and
then it leaves.
Pastor: I saw the car cover I didn’t know what it was.
Mr. Maxwell: Yeah--yeah--yeah, that is not for that new garage.
Pastor: Okay. Do you have a basement in this home?
Mr. Maxwell: Yes, a partial basement.
Pastor: What do you mean by partial basement?
Mr. Maxwell: There’s a--behind the garage is a family room there’s a concrete floor and
a slab. So the basement if you look at this front view is form the right of the garage over
to the west side of the property.
Pastor: Okay. What else do you plan on putting in this garage? I--do you plan on putting
a work shop in here?
Mr. Maxwell: No, we need the additional storage and I’ve checked the requirements on
a shed and I could get a 200 square foot shed for all the additional items and I think with
my son’s car being parked in that garage and the hockey equipment, the lawnmower,
snow blower, generator, all the other additional equipment every family has, I’ll use up
that additional space real quick.
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? I have a couple more. Are you going to use the existing
driveway and then pour the footings for the new garage if it is approved?
Mr. Maxwell: Yes, I--the gentleman that poured my driveway he’s already gave me plans
for the slab for the garage and it was designed as such to put the garage right there at
the end of the house. So he will come it--it’s Starline Concrete will do the work for me.
Henzi: What do you mean it was designed as such?
Mr. Maxwell: Well my plan all along was to put a garage at the end of that driveway. I
wanted one and I knew I had to go to the variance board. I’ve lived there since ’99, it took
me six years to put the driveway in because it was $7,000.00 for a driveway. So I saved
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 55 July 29, 2014
that money up to get the driveway in. And when Starline put the driveway in--I’m an
engineer so I always plan ahead so--
Mrs. Maxwell: When we put the driveway in we talked to them--you know--found out
where the garage would have to go and so we built the new driveway right up to where
the garage would be placed so we didn’t have to do any extra cement work on the
driveway if we ever got approval to put a garage in.
Henzi: We--you talked about a shed.
Mr. Maxwell: Yes.
Henzi: And I will kind of tell you the problems that I have. Number one if you had a 200
square foot shed you couldn’t put it where you are proposing it because it has to be at
the rear of the house. Number two, I mean you are not asking for the biggest garage that
we’ve seen believe me, at 340 square feet that is pretty reasonable. But why won’t--why
don’t you just ask for a 280 square foot shed or a 300 square foot shed?
Mr. Maxwell: Because I want to--my son’s car is part of the problem here. When he starts
driving a six foot door that is allowed on a shed the car won’t fit through a six foot door.
Henzi: So that is really the driving force right? I mean you plan on having three cars?
Mr. Maxwell: Yes. The main--
Henzi: And you’ve got two bays right now?
Mr. Maxwell: And that third car like we said if we park it on the road it’s going to get hit
eventually because it’s on that tee intersection. In the winter time somebody is going to
hit it or theft. I like to have all cars under a roof every night.
Henzi: The folks that live on Oakhill Court do they primarily use Ashhurst to get to Five
Mile?
Mrs. Maxwell: Ashurst or Alpine yeah.
Henzi: Okay, any other questions?
Rhines: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Rhines.
Rhines: Do you know if there are any other houses in your neighborhood with an attached
garage and a detached garage? I didn’t see any when I kind of drove through?
Mrs. Maxwell: Not in our--not in our two streets that make up our neighborhood no.
Rhines: Okay.
Mr. Maxwell: Nothing within a 300 foot radius of the house. I haven’t seen one.
Rhines: Anything you’ve seen at all in the neighborhood or whatever when you’ve driven
through?
Mrs. Maxwell: There’s a house in our neighborhood that has a shed at the end of their
drive where we were saying we would put our garage.
Rhines: Okay.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 55 July 29, 2014
Mrs. Maxwell: We have a neighbor--actually we have three neighbors that have sheds
on their property and--so--you know--they do have those so those are options for us as
well.
Mr. Maxwell: On Oakhill they have a pretty large shed in the same spot that I am
proposing but it is like a pool house shed because they have a built in pool.
Mrs. Maxwell: Right.
Mr. Maxwell: And it works well for them that way.
Rhines: Okay, thank you.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Let’s go back over this driveway. Your plot plan here shows your driveway in
front of your fireplace. Are you actually telling us your driveway goes to the front of the
garage--where the garage would be right now?
Mr. Maxwell: Yeah, that driveway when I bought the house in 1999, that driveway was to
the back edge of the house and it’s out over the easement today. And so when I had it--
when I had Starline Concrete put it in they poured it to the same dimensions as when I
bought the house.
Pastor: So the driveway come all the way--all the way to the back of your house?
Mr. Maxwell: Correct.
Pastor: So--
Mrs. Maxwell: Not way to the back corner.
Mr. Maxwell: Not quite, it’s about two feet or--by two feet shy of the back wall of that
house.
Mrs. Maxwell: Right.
Pastor: So what would be wrong with putting a car right in that area? You say you can’t
park it in the street but there’s plenty of room to get a car in that area.
Mr. Maxwell: Well it doesn’t solve--what I want is a covered storage for the car and the
extra items in the garage. I want everything inside under a roof so it is not outside.
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? I think this is my last one. If--if the front yard setback is
something that the Board would consider approving would you be willing to just add a
third bay to the garage?
Mr. Maxwell: Sure, we would be willing to put the third bay, but I prefer--I went in and
talked to Randy a few times and that and Randy said don’t even try that because I’m right
at that legal distance from the garage to the sidewalk today. So I think if I did that it might
look strange in the neighborhood to have the garage so close to the sidewalk.
Henzi: It might, I was just feeling out--
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 55 July 29, 2014
Mr. Maxwell: We tried it and for me--
Henzi: Okay.
Mr. Maxwell: --if it would get approved we--
Mrs. Maxwell: Yeah, you can--yeah you can definitely put it there. The way the garage
is laid out you can add on to it very easily right there, it will be a little bit more work--you
know we’d have to redesign and take some stuff apart to do it. But yeah, it is doable.
Henzi: Yeah, I don’t know how much of a deficiency it would be anyway. I don’t know if
the Board would approve it I was just trying to get a feeling for it.
Mrs. Maxwell: Right.
Mr. Maxwell: Sure.
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants
to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the table.
Gordon Murray: I was going to ask some questions but they’ve already been answered.
Henzi: Okay.
Mrs. Maxwell: Okay.
Henzi: What’s your name and address?
Murray: Oh, Gordon Murray, 15631 Southampton.
Henzi: Okay.
Murray: Thank you.
Henzi: Anything else?
Murray: No that was it, he answered all the questions that I had.
Henzi: Okay. Anybody else? Seeing no one, can you read the letters?
Caramagno: A letters of approval from John Barbour, 15617 Ashurst (letter read), Marc
and Anne Hage, 34514 Woodvale (letter read) and letters of objection from JoAnn
Szalo, 34455 Woodvale (letter read). Diane Hubchik, 15522 Alpine (letter read), and
Todd and Diane Geverink, 34462 Woodvale (letter read).
Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Maxwell, anything you want to say in closing?
Mr. Maxwell: The comments on the visual back to the ravine, yes there is a ravine that
runs Five Mile back there. Up until two years ago, we had arborvitaes back along there
that were twenty feet tall that blocked the view. The arborvitaes when we bought the
house were there. So we took all the arborvitaes down two years ago with the intention
of putting up a shed or a garage in this area and then re-landscaping that area so the
view has been blocked since 1999 till 2011.
Henzi: Okay, anything else? Okay, I will close the public portion of the case and begin
the Board’s comments with Mr. Rhines.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 55 July 29, 2014
Rhines: You guys seem like very nice people and this is a well-planned out design that
you’ve got here. So you obviously put a lot of time into it. And I would love to approve
something. It’s well thought out, I believe you are going to do a good job and it is going
to look nice. But I echo some of the sentiments of the people in those letters. I’ve
actually got four teenagers right now all of driving age and I live in a house in Livonia
with a single wide driveway. So we park three of the cars on the road I think and
whenever we want to get the one out that is in the front, we’ve got to line people up to
move all three of them out and we pull into our neighbor’s yards, and then we--it’s
actually something that is pretty common in the City of Livonia.
Mrs. Maxwell: Sure.
Rhines: There is not a lot of space, so I think--I think if we approve this that it would
open up a flood. I’m not sure about all the other comments, I don’t know if it would ruin
your neighborhood, but I do think it would open up a flood of other people who might
want to add an extra garage and that would change the overall effect of the City of
Livonia. And I think if I supported this it would be hard to not support every other
garage that comes in front of us because you--I don’t know if the alleged hardship has
been proved because you’ve got a double wide driveway, you’ve got some options that
I’m jealous of actually. You’ve got some parking options that I don’t even have so, I
don’t think I can be in support of this tonight.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Mr. Chair, skip me for a minute please.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Yes, typically when we have somebody ask for a second garage it is on a much
larger lot. I mean and it’s--a lot of times they won’t have a basement. You have those
things, you don’t have a large lot. I understand the need for more garage space but this
neighborhood wasn’t designed to have a second garage and I just cannot--I just can’t
go along with it. So I will not be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Schepis.
Schepis: I don’t think I have anything to add that hasn’t been said. And I think agree
with the other people who have spoken.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Well I think there is something that--they are looking for a remedy here for
a small garage and I mean a small garage at 660 square feet. That doesn’t leave you a
lot of room for anything with a family. I have a similar problem with a small garage. But
you’ve got objections--three objections versus two approvals from your neighbors. The
one objection is quite far from you, he can’t see it and it doesn’t have a lot of impact on
him. I would be willing to approve something but it looks like it’s not there if there are
three no’s already. I would be in support of something, either coming forward or a
second garage I don’t have a real problem with it.
Henzi: Yeah, I have to agree I can’t approve what was proposed. You know maybe we
can consider tabling it so that they can come back and look at other options. I mean the
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 55 July 29, 2014
two neighbors with the clearest sight line of it object but ultimately my objection is that
this is a subdivision with two car garages and your garage is going to alter the look of
the entire neighborhood. Most--I would say almost all of the second garages that we
approve are in RUF zoned neighborhoods where there are big lots, where there are lots
of other garages where the houses are architecturally different. This is to me the kind of
a cookie cutter subdivision I live in. Every house is meant to look the same. This is
going to drastically change it. And when you move out this is still going to be there. So
for those reasons I can’t support it.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Upon Motion by Pastor supported by Caramagno, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-07-38 An appeal has been made to the Zoning
Board of Appeals by Jerome Maxwell, 34479 Woodvale, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to
construct a detached garage while maintaining an attached garage, resulting in excess
number of garages and garage area.
Number of Garages: Garage Area:
Allowed: one Allowed: 660 sq. ft.
Proposed: two Proposed: 740 sq. ft.
Excess: one (340 sq. ft. proposed)
Excess: 80 sq. ft.
The property is located on the south side of Woodvale (34479) between Alpine and
Ashurst, Lot No. 063-06-0017-000, R-3 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection
Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 2.10(5) “Definition of
be tabled to allow
Miscellaneous Terms” and 18.24 “Residential Accessory Building,”
petitioner an opportunity to take the Board’s comments into consideration and
bring a new plan to the next meeting.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Pastor, Caramagno, Rhines, Schepis, Henzi
NAYS: None
ABSENT: Sills, Bowling
Henzi: So this has been tabled, it is actually an intended benefit for you because you
don’t have to pay to come back.
Mr. Maxwell: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: So if you want to get rescheduled you just call Marilyn in the Zoning Board office
th
in the building department. The next available meeting is August 26 but you would have
to have your paperwork in by this Friday.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 55 July 29, 2014
Mrs. Maxwell: Okay.
th
Henzi: After that the next meeting is September 9.
Mrs. Maxwell: Okay, thank you.
Mr. Maxwell: Thanks for your time.
Henzi: Sure.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 55 July 29, 2014
APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-07-39 An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of
Appeals by Gary Williams, 28112 Seven Mile, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a wood
privacy fence, six foot tall, along the west property line, resulting in two fences abutting
the adjacent property line and not obtaining the adjoining property owners approval to
erect such fence. Only one fence is allowed adjacent to a property line.
The property is located on the north side of Seven Mile (28112) between Angling and
Lathers, Lot No. 004-99-0026-000, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection
Department under Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090(B) “Residential District
Regulations.”
Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add to this case?
DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time, Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Good evening, tell us your names
and address please.
Williams: Gary Williams, 28112 Seven Mile, Livonia, Michigan, 48152. Karen Fischer--
Ms. Fischer: I can say my own name. Karen Fischer, 28112 Seven Mile.
Henzi: Okay, take it away, tell us about the fence you want.
Williams: At first, thank you for hearing us really, I appreciate it. We’ve had some issues
here with this building across the road that sits adjacent to our property. I’ve submitted
pictures do you guys have them?
Henzi: We’ve all been to your property to take a look.
Williams: Have you? I missed you.
Henzi: We’re sneaky.
Williams: We’ve had a lot of problems there--a lot of problems. The business has
increased across the road by 80 percent. We have cars coming and going on a regular
basis from ten o’clock in the morning till 9:30 at night. I better stick my dialogue here
because I know I’m going to get off track if you don’t mind. I would really like to thank you
which I already did. Okay, the thing about the reason why I want a privacy fence is more
security than privacy. The building at 28200 Seven Mile, the company over the last year
has increased their business by over 80 percent with employees and business and people
coming and going. Next, with that I mean either cars, employees coming and going all
hours of the day and night on any given day from 10:00 a.m. to 9:30 at night or later in a
lot of cases you can have people out there standing in groups, smoking cigarettes,
swearing, making comments over to our yard. There’s been several instances with me
and the groups of people and like I said any given time there’s between ten and fifteen of
them out there at a time with this new company that is over there.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 55 July 29, 2014
Ms. Fischer: Or more.
Williams: Maybe more. You can tolerate a lot as a neighbor, you can tolerate a lot while
welcoming a new business. But when they supersede over into your yard and they start
making comments directly to you and then now you to walk over and explain what is going
on, how is this happening and you turn a cheek and walk back and it happens again. It
happens again and instead of tying up our local P.D. with this B.S. which they have
enough problems--but they are over there a lot mind you I want to keep that in mind
there’s been enough police reports and enough 911 stuff from me calling over from the
drug dealing and all the other stuff that has taken place on that property over the last
couple--three years since I’ve been there. To give you an idea two years ago there’s
about ten people taken into custody from that building from the guys in gold badges.
When I say that I’m not sure which jurisdiction they were but I am sure they were probably
Federal because they were tied to some human sex thing or whatever. I’m not exactly
sure what happened. Recently we’ve had two break-ins directly across the street from
my home and this is within the last month where they broke in and tried stripping for the
wire. I’m not saying these people had anything to do with it but it’s all adding up. It’s just
becoming way too much. Back to my dialogue if you don’t mind. I’m not sure I have it to-
-I’m not sure I have it in me to walk away next time. This is really--really getting bad over
there. Now it seems they are grouping up even more and because of the smoking laws
in Michigan. I guess since I’ve made the complaints to the Mayor’s office that he sent
people out there and now they are standing away from the building and closer to my
property. Which basically is less than a couple hundred feet away. We are looking at
them. We can’t even barbeque anymore. My wife tried laying out in the sun several times
and we’ve got these people we don’t even know hooting and hollering. And who are
these people? Do you guys even have an idea what businesses these are? Are they
bonded? Are they criminals? Because there’s a criminal attorney already over there. My
other issue is we have a school less than a half of a block away from this. I mean he is
not turning away cases you know and whatever. So we’ve got people that we don’t know
coming over there. We know we have criminals coming over there because we have a
criminal attorney. We have no privacy, we have nothing left in our yard. Let me get back
to this. It’s been a long time since I spoke in public so--
Henzi: It’s okay.
Williams: --pardon me. I went over my wife can’t even sit in the sun, okay so I’m getting
good. And the other problems are not only the problems there, the other tenants that
come and go since I’ve been complaining--and I probably shouldn’t say this in public but
there is an ongoing police investigation involving all the tenants in that building. And I
was called by the Intelligence Division from the Livonia P.D. thanks to me that they are
doing something hopefully. They are not sure, it’s not over so there’s been no outcome.
I don’t want to put a bad rap on somebody that hasn’t happened yet. But that building
has been a pain in my butt since I’ve been there really.
Ms. Fischer: Mine too.
Williams: Yours too, see. But I’m not sure if I can walk away the next time. It is getting
really--really stressed out. You know I’m doing the best I can. I am, I am really doing the
best I can here. I spent a lot of money. We’ve put over $40,000.00 into our house in the
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 55 July 29, 2014
last four years. I pull permits for everything that we’ve done over there. We try to do the
right thing. The neighborhood has changed. Last night at Inkster and Schoolcraft there
was a kid killed in a carjacking. Two weeks before that, Five Mile--or Seven Mile and
Inkster another kid shot and put in the hospital for walking down the street. The
neighborhood has changed. I’m not saying that this is ultimately going to protect us but
at least they are not going to be able to see into our yard to see our property, to create
what you want to call an opportunity. But this is going to be a deterrent hopefully. I guess
that is all I have to say for right now for a moment. And also the neighbor has a fence in
back of me--a privacy fence already existing. I don’t think there are a whole lot of
objections. I haven’t heard the letters but that’s about it. I submitted you guys a lot of
pictures though. I took a lot of time taking these pictures. I put you where the building
was from the pictures looking into my yard. I put me in my yard looking over to the building
which is an eyesore to begin with. I don’t know how these people can just walk in the
door, open the business in Livonia and you’ve guys have no knowledge. It seems like
there is no oversight on these smaller businesses and these companies that come in
anymore. I’m not saying that they are harmful right now but they are more of a nuisance
than anything else. But again like I said we have a school down the street and I think this
needs to be addressed even if I don’t get my fence.
Henzi: I had a couple of questions for you.
Williams. Yes.
Henzi: The neighbor to the west won’t give approval for a privacy fence is that right?
Williams: I talked with her son--please you can go ahead.
Ms. Fischer: Go.
Williams: A year ago she was going to do it. My wife was a witness to it. We were having
issues with that building even back then. We were talking about it, she’s scared I won’t
lie to you. This is a 75--80 year old woman, she is scared. She is going to--now she is
going to lose her security guard because I watch everything that happens around that
neighborhood. And I’m not trying to be a busy body, but I’m not going to watch somebody
get robbed either. But the thing is she is scared. Cars park on the side of her house all
the time and I am chasing them away or calling the police. It’s just turned into a bad thing
for that building.
Henzi: You will hear the letter that it looks like Karen Duval wrote.
Williams: Yes.
Henzi: She says essentially that she wants the fence around the property the way it has
been for years.
Williams: Okay, and the response to that is I understand--
Ms. Fischer: The neighborhood has changed.
Williams: --the neighborhood’s changed. I don’t know--I tried talking to her about this. I
tried talking to her son, she is really stubborn in her own way. I’m not taking down the
fence. I’m not touching it. The fence that I am putting up is the same on both sides.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 55 July 29, 2014
There is no difference on my side, no difference on her cosmetically it is going to be
beautiful. And actually it is going to--it is what it is guys. You know what, I am trying to
get a little privacy in my yard. I am paying a lot of taxes here in Livonia and I’m not asking
for a lot. There are a lot of problems we have in that area.
Henzi: I guess what I am getting at is, is there a neighbor dispute between you and--
Williams: Yes, there has been.
Henzi: --28124?
Williams: For the first two years there I shoveled her walk, I mowed her lawn. I didn’t
even know she had a son to be honest with you. Come to find out her son owns a
landscaping company and a snow removal company. I didn’t see hide nor hair of him for
two years. Then I see him pull up with a snow plow one time and I say where in the hell
have you been, I’ve been plowing your mom’s walk and doing her lawn for two years now
and ever since then she hasn’t talked to me. Now that is the God’s honest truth on that.
I mean even when my mower broke down I paid another landscaping company to cut her
lawn and mine.
Henzi: The other question is on the east side of your property you’ve got shrubs, so my
question is why don’t you just plant some arborvitaes?
Williams: The problem is I am not a gardener. What if they died, do I have to keep taking
them down and do I have to put insect repellant on them? We have a rodent problem over
there too. I don’t know if you are aware of that. We have--I have pictures of rats on my
phone that are the size of this. I mean they are huge rats and I think--I cleared my fence
lines for that reason because I called it the rodent roadway.
Ms. Fischer: Highway.
Williams: Yeah, highway. Because we could sit out there during the day and that is
unusual if you see a rat during the day and I’m not an exterminator or anything by any
means but you know you’ve got a big problem. These rats are huge. I’ve got a picture I
could share it with you and pass it around. I’ve killed five or six just in the last five months.
That’s why I won’t put the shrubberies up. I don’t want any more shrubberies up to hide
and let them--the rodents have a place to go. It is horrible.
Henzi: Well you didn’t take those shrubs down. I mean those go almost the length of the
property right?
Williams: I have a problem with one neighbor that let things go to a certain point with the
vines if you look down the east part of the property. My side is clear, his side isn’t. The
vines are literally pulling the fence down. We were having problems with rats, possums-
-we had a raccoon in our garage during the day and they are nocturnal. So he was
probably sick or had rabies who knows. So I was going to shoot him but we didn’t we got
him out of there with the hose and he went back to my neighbors where he came from.
But I tried to keep a neat house. We try to be a good part--a good contributor to the
community. I try to keep everything right in my house. We pay everything we have to,
we pull permits for everything we have to. I don’t have a lot more to say outside unless
you’ve actually been there at night or during the day to experience the people out there
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 55 July 29, 2014
like they are having a party everyday six and seven days a week. Between--I don’t even
want to guess because there is an investigation going on. I know what is going on over
there.
Henzi: Okay, any other questions?
Rhines: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Rhines,
Rhines: If you got this variance and you put the fence that’s going to--that’s going to
satisfy you, you are not going to need to come back for any other variances for any other-
-
Williams: I have no need to come back for any variance.
Rhines: --privacy fence?
Williams: None, whatsoever. And as you guys probably keep good records and I’m sure
you did, I’m very happy in Livonia. We do pull permits for everything we do. I don’t just
start a project and say I’m going to do it half butt, you know, I make sure I try to do the
right thing on everything. And I have no need to put any other fences up. This is more
of a security issue. And the truth of the matter is I’m not going to take these guys yelling
and screaming at my wife when she is sitting in the sun out there anymore. I can’t take it
no more. I live there, they don’t. This is a place that leases offices of $99.00 a month. It
burned down and that was subject--a couple--three years ago, I’m not going to open a
can of worms that doesn’t need to be opened. But from everybody else that I’ve talked
to that’s been in the neighborhood longer than I have said that place has been nothing
but a rat hole since it has been there. The guy that owned it lives at Lone Pine and
Telegraph. The reason I know that is I talked to one of his contractors. They were putting
showers in two years ago to give you an idea. What the heck do they need showers
there--I know, I’m sorry--I apologize. I’m just very angry about this whole thing.
Rhines: Well, I will just remind you that we are just here to consider the variance so--
Williams: I know, I am sorry.
Rhines: If you’ve got complaints about those type of things--
Williams: I apologize.
Rhines: --it’s with the City Department--the Fire Department--the Police Department as
you know.
Henzi: All the departments.
Rhines: If you can’t get that department out there so--
Williams: I’ve called everybody. I am in touch with the Mayor’s office recently and I don’t
want to be one of those people or one of those neighbors that have to call the Mayor’s
office to get something done. I don’t want to be one of those guys. I don’t want to call
the police on no one for no reason. I just want to be able to live in my backyard. I want
my yard back.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 55 July 29, 2014
Ms. Fischer: And I guess we would--if we did put it up we would have to put it up at the
back of the house just for the--we wouldn’t put it between the houses.
Williams: No, it would not be.
Ms. Fischer: So that would make room--you know if there was ever a fire problem or--
Rhines: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Rhines.
Rhines: So this is a--I guess this is maybe--so you in your permit the building department
has approved or has--or is willing to approve with a variance from the back of your house
to the--to how far back?
Williams: They gave me the actual I can go all the way back but as I told you earlier when
you were at the house, I decided you know what, it doesn’t have to go all the way back.
I would compromise on the bushes. I really don’t want to put any more green stuff back
there and shrubberies. We have a lot of rodents in the area. You know I don’t want to
go back too far but the Bubonic plague was caused by a flea from a rat. I mean that--you
know--I know--I just don’t want to be around all these rodents running around my property,
you know. Getting in my home or something. So that is why I was against the shrubberies
but I would be willing to compromise a little bit maybe just give us the back part and
possibly where we barbeque, my wife lays out a little bit in the sun once in a while.
Ms. Fischer: Or you know to have people over--
Williams: We have people over--we don’t need 15--20 people there looking and hooting
and hollering and giving us the eyeball.
Rhines: So you’re talking about from the back corner of your house to about half way
back on the property?
Williams: What was that about eighty feet?
Ms. Fischer: Back of the garage there.
Williams: I think that was about eighty feet if I remember the last measurement I had. I
just paid for a survey of the whole place too, I don’t know if you got that.
Rhines: This?
Williams: Yeah, that’s it.
Rhines: And then from there back you will plant trees if you want more privacy?
Williams: I can plant trees, yeah I could. And you know what we did look into this, I won’t
lie to you. I just don’t like the idea of it but I would do it. Like I told you about the Home
Depot on the special order they’ve got these pines that you can order. It would be cheaper
than a fence, there is no doubt.
Ms. Fischer: The only problem is is I don’t think they would grow where we want to put
the fence behind the house there because there is way too much shade back there.
th
Williams: There is some. It’s been since 5 grade since I spoke in public like this too so
I’m--it’s been a while. That is why I was a little angry.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 55 July 29, 2014
Henzi: Anything else?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Sir, the neighbor that you don’t get along with to the west of you, have you
taken a sample of that fence over to her and shown her exactly where you want to go with
this thing?
Williams: A year ago I did. That’s why I suggested shadow box because it’s unbiased it
is the same on both sides. It’s a beautiful fence to put up in a neighborhood.
Caramagno: And she said absolutely no?
Ms. Fischer: She won’t talk to us.
Williams: She won’t even talk to us anymore ever since that incident--
Ms. Fischer: I have no idea.
Williams: --with her son, I think it has to be because I go man I’ve been cutting your
mom’s lawn for two years, I haven’t seen you and you’ve got a landscaping company. I
go I’m not mad about it but God--you know--and then I guess he told his mom and ever
since that matter--well I tried. I’ve sent her letters. My wife can testify because I didn’t
want any bad blood. I don’t like not getting along with anybody.
Caramagno: You don’t know if she’s disappointed with--she is even closer to that office
building, she is right next door to it. You don’t know if she is disappointed with that?
Williams: I think she is scared.
Ms. Fischer: I don’t know, you can’t say that.
Williams: I think she is the way she was talking sometimes over there. Because I think
that once we put a fence up what the problem is I play policeman over there at that
intersection. I mean there is not much that happens over there that--you know--I watch
the kids to make sure they are okay, I watch people walking. Because there are a lot of
strange people coming off Seven Mile and ever since that building got busier. And the
police can’t be everywhere. Like I said we just had a murder last night.
Ms. Fischer: She doesn’t use her yard like we do. She--I never see her out there, she
might go out there and water her flowers and that. But she doesn’t barbeque or sit out
there or--
Caramagno: Who uses the trampoline?
Ms. Fischer: That’s just for show.
Caramagno: Show?
Ms. Fischer: Deters people from trying to break into her house I think.
Williams: She just answered the question out of fear. She has the trampoline out of fear,
she has the swing set so the closure happens right there. That was unpredictable what
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 55 July 29, 2014
you asked and what she did, but that’s why she has them to make people think she has
a bigger household than she does.
Ms. Fischer: And she had told me that before.
Williams: And the other reason she might be mad too--and I’m sorry that I’m going to go
on about this. Remember when we thought she passed on and I had to call Livonia P.D.-
-
Ms. Fischer: Now wait a minute, we didn’t see her for a few days so we were worried.
Williams: I was concerned.
Ms. Fischer: We called the police and we just wanted them to check around the house.
Williams: Well unfortunately, they had to go into the house, the broke--they went through
a window--but really--
Ms. Fischer: You would think she would want the fence right?
Williams: You would think she would want the fence but she just likes me so much but
this is another reason. There are some other things like that--little things. Neighbors piss
neighbors off all the time. I mean--but I was concerned that is why I called the police. I
thought she was dead in there or hurt who knows. Yeah, she was mad. Sorry.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: So she won’t let you take down her fence?
Williams: No, and truthfully I don’t think it would be a good idea. I like the idea of having
that fence there that way she knows I’m on my property with my fence and we won’t be
back here.
Pastor: Well, you know our problem here is we don’t allow fence on fence.
Williams: Well it’s not going to be on the fence.
Pastor: Yes, it is, it is two fences butting together.
Williams: Well, we’re not going to be touching them--butting--no I’m not going--
Ms. Fischer: She’s the one that has to look at it.
Pastor: The problem--the problem--the problem is--
Williams: But she is the one that doesn’t like us.
Pastor: The problem is is who is going to cut the grass between those two fences?
Williams: Good point.
Pastor: How would you cut it?
Williams: You know how? There’s no grass--there is no grass at all. And there is a gap
about that big with my weed whip. I’ll put gravel--pea gravel down and I put--you know
what I put, I put that fabric over there so it keeps the weeds down. But when the weeds
do come back up I have a weed whip. I just bought a brand new Stihl. I would--I take
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 55 July 29, 2014
care of my yard really good, you guys were out there. I try--we put a lot of money into
that area. And not only that there are a lot of problems. We’re still bearing with it, we’re
still living here.
Pastor: But your rat highway would--that would be another way for rats to be running
back and forth.
Williams: No--negative.
Pastor: No it is. I’ve seen it--I’ve seen it.
Williams: The rats are already there.
Pastor: It will just give them another place to hide.
Williams: No, I know that. And you know what I put traps out still even though I haven’t
seen one in a couple of weeks. I put them out there, nobody wants them around. I take
them up on the morning I am up every day about 4:00 or 5:00 every day and I don’t want
the birds to bite into them and kill the little birds out there so I take the traps up and put
them back at night. But you are right, I suppose I understand what you are saying. There
could be a problem. But there is already a problem there and I am addressing it the best
I can. Now the rats are coming from her house which I have pictures of. I can understand
that she is responsible for exterminators. I mean I don’t want to go that direction either.
And maybe this guy needs to put a wall up who knows. I mean I’ll go to court on that I
don’t care. I’m just angry about this whole thing how this guy can get away with this all
this over there. I mean God this is Livonia. God.
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Have you considered any type of a fence screen inside along the corner of
your home?
Williams: What would that do though, think about it. Outside looking tacky? High
maintenance?
Caramagno: No, I don’t mean screen like--I mean moving that fence inward. Inward to
the east of your property off the corner of your home and then planting trees like you
suggested like pine trees down to the end of the fence as a screen.
Williams: I don’t think that is going to be a problem because the problem is these guys
are standing at higher grade then what our yard is over there because the way their
asphalt and the building was built. So if I don’t put a fence up shrubbery really is not
going--
Caramagno: No, you are not hearing--you are not understanding what I am saying. A
fence but a fence screen inside--
Williams: I don’t understand.
Caramagno: --that is 12 feet in from the--from your fence line--her fence, the fence you
share--
Williams: What coordinates?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 55 July 29, 2014
Caramagno: Come in 12 feet--
Williams: From the east?
Caramagno: From the west to the east. Come in 12 feet from the corner of your home
backwards to about the back of your garage--
Williams: I’m not game for that I’m going to be honest with you. You know, I served my
country for ten years too--and I’ll just--all I want to do is put a fence up. I’m not trying to
give anybody a hard time or anything. I’m--
Caramagno: I’m just making--I’m just asking you if you considered that.
Williams: I appreciate it. But no one is there on the battle field with me over there with
this B.S. I mean I’ve called the Federal Government because I suspected organized
prostitution even. And that has almost been proved over there. We just want our fence.
And if they don’t I’ll sell the property I don’t care. I know I shouldn’t get mad and I
apologize. But this has been too much. I haven’t asked the City for nothing.
Rhines: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Rhines.
Rhines: Like I said earlier when I bumped into you at your property there and like I said
here tonight too. We’re just here to look at the--
Williams: I appreciate it.
Rhines: --at the variance for the fence. So--
Williams: Thank you. I apologize.
Rhines: --the things that you do--
Williams: Seems like I do a lot of apologies.
Rhines: --all the things that are going on at that building, we are not the people to help
you with that.
Williams: I hear you.
Rhines: Maybe--let me just--let me just do this again. Do you have the thing you were
just showing him the plans?
Caramagno: The drawing?
Rhines: Yeah, I got mine here. Just to make sure you understood where he was
proposing. So I mentioned this too when I was out there but I’m not sure if you--if I was
clear either but--so basically you just build a--from the corner of your house here you
would go out this way a certain distance which would give you this whole area here to
barbeque, suntan and do whatever you want with privacy but it would allow you to mow
this strip right here.
Williams: Exactly.
Ms. Fischer: I see what you are saying.
Williams: I understand what you are saying.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 55 July 29, 2014
Rhines: That was what Mr. Caramagno was suggesting.
Williams: You are saying basically an encroachment I’m going to come in twelve feet on
our property?
Rhines: Basically somebody would put a deck in and then they would put--
Williams: Does it have to be twelve feet or could it be a lawnmower distance? I mean--
Rhines: Well the nice thing about that is it takes to the corner of your house which would
look like you intentionally designed kind of a seating area. It would actually look good.
Williams: Good thing I didn’t come in for my pole barn. No, I’m joking. I mean we got
rural farm property. That’s what it zoned at. The guy behind me has a privacy fence. I
mean come on guys.
Henzi: Well the problem is, imagine if you are Mrs. Duval and buy the house in 1960 and
says what I love about my backyard is I look out and I see nothing but green and then
this guy--
Williams: I see kids playing--
Henzi: Let me finish.
Williams: I hear you.
Henzi: Because I’ve let you go on a long time.
Williams: Yes, sir.
Henzi: And she says to herself I love looking in the backyard, it’s a sense of community-
-
Williams: I understand.
Henzi: --and then this guy is just going to go and put up whatever fence he wants and I
don’t get a say. That’s what we have to wrestle with.
Williams: No--
Henzi: We are not picking sides.
Williams: No, I know that but the problem also is I got to look at a bunch of kids’ play stuff
that don’t even play on it too. I mean there is stuff I could complain about and I know
what you saying--I hear you. I know--
Henzi: As a point of reference she’s got a brick fireplace.
Williams: Yes.
Henzi: Where is that in relation to your garage is it to the north?
Williams: I see where you are going with this. Actually it’s going to be to the west of my
garage by fifteen feet the first part of--yeah, it’s not quite a fire hazard.
Henzi: Is it even with your garage?
Williams: We’ve got a big tree there it’s kind of behind the tree off on an angle probably
north--northwest a little bit. And then it’s about fifteen feet from the garage. I mean I’m
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 55 July 29, 2014
going to tell you what the issue is, she is a very mean lady. I’m going to tell you I found
out the hard way. She is a very mean lady. She has a reverse mortgage. I don’t even
know if she has say on that property anyway any more but it doesn’t matter. I understand
your position.
Henzi: You are making it more difficult.
Williams: I know--I know--
Henzi: Because if you come in--
Williams: I’m sorry.
Henzi: --and--
Williams: I wasn’t going to do this either.
Henzi: If you come in and say it is a safety issue it is one thing. But it is deteriorating into
not a safety issue or--
Williams: Well it is, but I know what you are saying.
Ms. Fischer: For me it’s a safety issues.
Henzi: --a combined safety issue.
Williams: It’s a safety issue for my family.
Henzi: Neighbor dispute makes me want to say “absolutely no.”
Williams: I apologize all right. I am not very good at this.
Henzi: Okay.
Williams: I busted my tail all my life, I’ve been in business for thirty years. I--this is--I
want to put a little privacy fence up on my property. I mean this is all I want to do. Maybe
I am not approaching this well, maybe I am like a bull in a glass shop. I apologize. I spent
my money, I had my surveys done. I took my pictures. I established that there is a threat
to our family now because now they know that I don’t like them over there. Now they
know I called the police over there. All it takes is somebody to drive by there with a gun
and maybe shoot at me. But now if that privacy fence was there maybe there wouldn’t
be a clear target.
Henzi: Yeah, okay we got it.
Williams: And just to give you an idea somebody was killed in Livonia just around the
block not too far.
Henzi: Any other questions? Does anybody in the audience want to speak for or against
the project? Seeing no one coming forward can you read the letters?
Caramagno: Letters of approval from Louis Ajlouny, 19216 Meadowridge Drive (letter
read), and from Keith Reaume, 19054 Harrison (letter read), letter of objection from Karen
Duval, 28124 W. Seven Mile (letter read).
Henzi: Mr. Williams anything you want to say in closing?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 55 July 29, 2014
Williams: I am sorry for getting upset, it’s all I can tell you. I wasn’t going to do this. I just
have a lot of anger because we have been dealing with a lot of stuff over in that little bit
of an area for quite some time now. That is all I can tell you. And as far as the fence and
her fifth generation and whatever, I apologize if we are offending that too because I don’t
think that is the case. I think that she is just trying to do something to say hey you can’t
do that. And if you knew the lady that is exactly where it is coming from. And I apologize
and that’s all I’ve got to say.
Henzi: Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments
with Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: You have an interesting case here I will say that. When I drove by today I
will say that you take good care of your property. And as I drove around to the side street
I seen probably what the problem that you are dealing with is. I had seen a lot of folks
out there and just kind of congregating. I wouldn’t be terribly happy with that if I lived
there. And you certainly have a problem that is not unlike anything we have seen here
with two neighbors that don’t get along contributing to his dilemma. The issue that I have
is this fence on fence situation. I’ve seen it time and time again. Trees growing between
two fences, weeds growing between two fences, garbage getting between two fences.
With this rodent problem it is guaranteed to be part of that problem. That is why I can’t
support it as presented and that is why I suggested a screen and moving that fence in--I
don’t mean a screen as in a window screen, I mean moving that fence inward toward your
home. We have guidelines where that can be built properly within the ordinance and it
will probably solve most of our problem. And then you had a great idea with planting pine
trees down the rest of the way. That sounds great to me and I would support something
like that in a moment. But as it sits right now I cannot.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Yeah, I am going to have to agree with Sam. A fence on fence issue is just not
acceptable to me. We have seen many fences that debris, everything gets--it’s amazing.
I even wonder sometimes how it happens. I would probably make a tabling motion if
someone--I think Sam would support it but--to allow you to come back to us maybe with
a different plan. But as it is presented tonight I cannot support it.
Henzi: Mr. Schepis.
Schepis: Yeah, I would agree that it looks like there may be sort of an alternate that
doesn’t involve putting two fences together that might be viable.
Henzi: Mr. Rhines.
Rhines: I echo the sentiments of the colleagues but I would also add that even if you
vowed to keep that area between the fences clean someday you may sell the house. We
can’t then force the new owner of the house to take it down and we don’t really have--we
as a Board don’t have a way to force them to keep it clean and looking nice either. I also
agree with Sam that I would like you to have some privacy to enjoy your backyard and so
because of the proximity to that business and all hours of the day and the fact that you
are on a main road and that there is basically almost a hundred feet of property between
you and your neighbor to the east there is no place for you to exist in your backyard with
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 55 July 29, 2014
an ounce of privacy the way things are right now. So I could actually--I could be in support
of tabling it and letting you come back with a different plan. But I also could be in support
of a plan that would say you were allowed to put a six foot high privacy fence as you
proposed but it has to be at least six feet away from your neighbor’s fence. So you can
either go twelve feet away and make it start at the corner of your house and go straight
back, or you can have be six feet away from the neighbor’s fence and so a little six foot
connector from the corner of your house to the fence and then straight back to that area
we are talking about. So in effect you get all the privacy you are asking for, you just don’t
get to put the fence exactly where you want it and we don’t have to worry about the
problem of the mess in between the two fences. So I could be in support of something
like that.
Ms. Fischer: What if it was--I’m sorry.
Rhines: If you guys--if you guys wanted me to, if you were interested in that otherwise
we will just table it and I will try to table it and then let you come back and just--and then
have a new plan.
Williams: What if I took the other fence down like you suggested and we only had the
one fence. Would that eliminate a lot of the problems? It sounds like that’s most of the
argument that I am picking up here and I apologize if I got a little angry but I see what you
are saying. I thought about it and you are right. If we did sell the house--I know I’m not
going to let any papers get there. I know I’m not going to let no weeds grow there. But
what if we did sell the property, how are you going to enforce them the same--okay I get
what you are saying. What if I took the existing fence down at least that little 80 feet of it,
tie in--put the privacy fence in professionally--not me doing it--professional--done by
another company just for that little bit so we could have a little bit of our yard back? That
is all I am asking.
Henzi: That is kind of what you are talking about isn’t it?
Rhines: Well is that a possibility? Is the fence on your property or the neighbors?
Henzi: Yeah, I mean--Mrs. Duvall’s not--
Williams: I’ve got a plasma cutter, I can cut it in half--no I’m joking.
Henzi: You can’t just take the fence down because it sounds like Mrs. Duvall is going to
say no way.
Williams: I am willing to cooperate and work with anybody. I know she’s not going--very
uncooperative that is all I am saying.
Ms. Fischer: What if we--
Rhines: Is that your fence or her fence?
Ms. Fischer: --put it like maybe about this far from--
Williams: What does the survey say, you know it’s a good point on that--
Ms. Fischer: --the fence where you can get a lawnmower in there?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 55 July 29, 2014
Williams: --does that--does the survey show the fence line and does it show the property
line?
Henzi: I--I--
Rhines: No it doesn’t.
Henzi: Were you finished?
Rhines: Yes, I am.
Henzi: I agree with the other Board members. When I first looked at the packet I thought
that parking lot has been there for a long time what is the problem. But I am with you in
the need for privacy. I remember driving down Seven Mile home from work all the time
and noticing that that building looked vacant. When I’ve been there recently including
when I went to your property I mean there was thirty cars there.
Ms. Fischer: Yeah.
Henzi: It is completely different than it was two years ago from my memory.
Williams: It’s horrible--it’s horrible.
Henzi: So do the neighbors deserve some privacy, absolutely.
Williams: Do the taxpayers--do you know these people too? That’s the other problem,
how did they get there?
Henzi: That is really not our--we have nothing to do with that.
Ms. Fischer: Can I ask a question please?
Henzi: Go ahead.
Ms. Fischer: What if we put--I mean maybe not six feet because that would take up our
whole yard, maybe enough space to get a lawnmower through there?
Williams: Like three feet?
Ms. Fischer: You know just so he can go back there and mow it and keep it--but maybe
only about this far from the fence?
Henzi: We’ll talk about it, we’ll see if there is consensus. I guess the point that I was
going to make is that I think the compromise offered by Mr. Caramagno and Mr. Rhines
is a good one. Because just like on the eastside of the property where you’ve got vines
growing in--
Williams: I don’t.
Henzi: --I don’t want to see this problem on this side.
Williams: I didn’t do that, my vines are cut.
Henzi: That’s what we’ve got to look at. And you wouldn’t know this but you know we
are here twice a month telling people no double fence all year--all year long we tell people
that.
Williams: One more question possible?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 55 July 29, 2014
Henzi: So this isn’t personal.
Williams: Okay, I hear what you are saying, I thank you for being here twice a month I
do. What if I put--I’m familiar with this now--it just came to me--the bamboo, could I--you
can wire it to the existing fence. You are not putting another fence, there is no way for
stuff to grow in between it, but it would give--if I put the bamboo--they’re six foot by eight
sheets too I think. Or we could nicely fasten it to the existing fence. Because it is half my
fence too there. And what if I put that in, would that be acceptable to the Board? We
want some privacy or we are moving end of story. I am going to sell the property. I don’t
know if you care--I know you don’t care.
Henzi: Absolutely we care.
Williams: No you don’t. You do--I know you do, okay you do but you have to go with this
and that and the other thing. And you did--one person here--you did something. You did
used to drive down there. You did drive by there recently what you saw recently probably
was half of what we normally go through. And that is a seven day a week thing over
there. And I’m not exactly sure what they are doing--
Henzi: I don’t dispute that but we are beyond do you need privacy--
Williams: I know I agree--I agree. What about a bamboo?
Henzi: --I think everyone said you deserve some privacy. The difference is--
Williams: Can I affix something to?
Henzi: --you have a neighbor that jointly owns the fence that says no way, don’t.
Williams: I hear you.
Ms. Fischer: A year ago she was fine with it.
Henzi: You have five people now say--
Williams: A year ago she was fine with it.
Henzi: You’ve had five people say we’ll go along with it you just can’t put a fence on
fence and now we are trying to hammer it out.
Williams: Okay, let’s get it done.
Henzi: And to your benefit we’ve allowed some horse trading here.
Williams: Thank you.
Henzi: I think we know what’s going on. The floor is open for a motion.
Pastor: Mr. Chair
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Upon Motion by Pastor supported by Caramagno, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-07-39 An appeal has been made to the Zoning
Board of Appeals by Gary Williams, 28112 Seven Mile, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to
erect a wood privacy fence, six foot tall, along the west property line, resulting in two
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 55 July 29, 2014
fences abutting the adjacent property line and not obtaining the adjoining property owners
approval to erect such fence. Only one fence is allowed adjacent to a property line.
The property is located on the north side of Seven Mile (28112) between Angling and
Lathers, Lot No. 004-99-0026-000, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection
Department under Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090(B) “Residential District
be tabled to allow petitioner an opportunity to take the Board’s
Regulations,”
comments into consideration and bring a new plan to the next meeting.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Pastor, Caramagno, Schepis, Rhines, Henzi
NAYS: None
ABSENT: Sills, Bowling
Henzi: I think you’ve gotten a flavor. I mean we’re looking--
Williams: I understand.
Henzi: --you’ve got to move it east.
Williams: I do. You’ve got to do what you’ve got to do. I appreciate your time, I do.
Henzi: If you want to come back and say for example we want--first of all call the
Building Department and find out what are the rules for a screen. And when Sam--
again screen is just--it’s a privacy fence when it is on the property line--
Williams: I hear you.
Henzi: --it’s a privacy screen when it is in your yard. So find out what the rules are for
the screen.
Williams: I will.
Henzi: And then if you want to come back and say we want to move our fence to the
east three feet, six feet, whatever we’ll decide it.
Williams: You kind of gave me my answers, I appreciate it. What about the bamboo
thing? Can I affix some bamboo there at least give us some of our summer back before
we lose it all?
Henzi: Mike, that’s not allowed is it?
Mr. Fisher: No, that’s not allowed, sorry.
Williams: Wow--wow, okay, no problem.
Ms. Fischer: All right.
Williams: Love Livonia.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 55 July 29, 2014
Henzi: But get your packet in by Friday if you want to get on the next meeting’s agenda.
Williams: You’re not getting any more of my money. I’m done.
Henzi: Okay.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 55 July 29, 2014
APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-07-40 An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of
Appeals by Associates Limited Partnership, 11800 Middlebelt, Livonia, MI 48150, on
behalf of lessee McDonalds, 11800 Middlebelt, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to construct
one ground sign, resulting in the ground sign being excess in height, area and containing
an electronic message center, which is more than one half in area of the sign face.
Ground Sign Height: Ground Sign Area:
Allowed: 6 ft. Allowed: 30 sq. ft.
Proposed: 8 ft. Proposed: 54 sq. ft..
Excess: 2 ft. Excess: 24 sq. ft.
The property is located on the east side of Middlebelt (11800) between the CSX
Railroad and Plymouth, Lot No. 099-99-0007-006, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the
Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 18.50H(a)1,
18.50H(m) and 18.50H(o)1 “Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts.”
Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add to this case?
DeMeyer: Not at this time, Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Any questions for Mr. DeMeyer? Hearing none, good evening.
Palazzolo: Good evening. Dominic Palazzolo of Allied Signs here on behalf of
McDonalds at 11800 Middlebelt representing Mr. Paul Hammer the owner, his two
associates, Theresa and Michelle. McDonalds has changed their corporate image now
for their monument signs. This is their new design that they are going with. Our--
obviously we are exceeding the height requirement and the length and we are I think 24
square feet over total. That’s where we are at at this point. Our basic hardship out
there is obviously lack of identification on Middlebelt Road, the setback and what not.
That’s where we are at. So we are here today to ask for the variance on these few
additional items, the height and the square footage.
Henzi: Mr. Palazzolo, I know that we approved a somewhat similar sign for the Seven
and Farmington store, did you do that one?
Palazzolo: Correct, we did.
Henzi: Is that the same style, it looks to me like it is?
Palazzolo: It’s pretty close. This one here has a brick base on it. I actually have those
drawings from that other store. Do you have those drawings?
Henzi: No, but the Inspection Department did inform me that that sign is 48 square feet
not 54.
Palazzolo: Okay.
Henzi: So tonight you are asking for 54 square feet for the Plymouth and Middlebelt but
Seven and Farmington got 48.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 55 July 29, 2014
Palazzolo: Correct.
Henzi: Is there a reason for that?
Palazzolo: It’s--you know that’s just the proposed signage that they offered to us or
actually told us that they want to go with.
Henzi: But it is similar in that it’s got the--you know--red brick or whatever?
Palazzolo: Exactly, the red brick base.
Henzi: And then the McDonald’s M--
Palazzolo: Correct.
Henzi: --and then the reader board?
Palazzolo: Correct.
Henzi: Okay. Any questions?
Palazzolo: And I believe that--the one over there is actually a ten--ten feet in height.
Henzi: Yes.
Palazzolo: That’s what I have here from the engineer’s plan. This one here that we are
proposing is actually eight feet in height. So we are actually two feet less in height than
at the other location. I think where they are picking it up though is on the length of the
unit itself.
Henzi: Any questions?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I assume that they still make that 48 square foot sign?
Palazzolo: Do they?
Pastor: Yes.
Palazzolo: I am sure they do.
Pastor: Why would expect to get anything more at this location than at the last
location?
Palazzolo: Is there--you know--I don’t have a problem if you have a different idea here
or suggestion to us. I am proposing exactly what they have offered us to propose and
this is the plans that I have.
Pastor: Is this the same owner as the other place?
Palazzolo: Yes, it is. Mr. Hammer owns both locations.
Pastor: Okay.
Palazzolo: This is--like I said--this is a corporate--and you know what we are dealing
with, this is what they have changed over to, this is their new identification that they are
going to be going with across the country now. So we are here to ask for--you know--in
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 55 July 29, 2014
your--in our favor if this would fly. Obviously we got a variance kindly granted to us for
the other location at the 10 foot in height, we are not trying to exceed that we don’t want
to go over the precedence that was already set. This one here is eight feet in height like
I said I think where the discrepancy is in the length, we are picking up a little more
length on it.
Pastor: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Pastor: You know what, I’ve got one more.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Do these signs stay on all night, do you turn them off at night? I don’t
remember what we did last time if we asked them to turn them off or not after certain
hours. Do you know?
Palazzolo: If you don’t mind me asking Theresa here--
Pastor: Sure.
Palazzolo: --she has the answer to that as to how they run the other location.
Brown: Do I have to say my name?
Henzi: Yes, please.
Brown: Theresa Brown, 11800 Middlebelt. Yeah we do keep them on all night.
Pastor: Keep them on all night.
Palazzolo: I know there was some requirements that the City had asked on--I’m sure
we have--
Brown: Yeah, the rule--I call them rules. You know like we can’t have them flickering,
shine and fireworks and--you know. We don’t do any of that we cut them off.
Palazzolo: And these units can be toned down too.
Brown: Yeah, you can take the--
Palazzolo: As far as the brightness of the image, we can tone those down as well.
Brown: And they don’t change every two minutes, I think we have five minute intervals.
So we don’t do wacky things.
Pastor: So your luminesce on the signage is going to comply with the--
Palazzolo: Oh, absolutely.
Pastor: Okay, that’s all I’ve got for right now.
Rhines: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Rhines.
Rhines: You might have already said this but I feel as if I am missing something. This
is a picture of the sign that you are proposing by the road?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 55 July 29, 2014
Palazzolo: Correct.
Brown: Yeah.
Rhines: What do we have a copy of the outdoor menu board for? Is that going to
change to reflect this apparently?
Palazzolo: I have no idea.
Brown: I have no idea.
Palazzolo: I have no idea why that is in there.
Brown: In case you wanted to order when you left? I am sorry, I don’t know.
Rhines: I am just kind of making sure this is not what the sign is going to show?
Brown: No--no--no.
Palazzolo: No, absolutely not.
Brown: I’m sorry.
Rhines: Okay.
Palazzolo: This is the--this is the same drawing that you have there in front of you?
Rhines: Okay.
Palazzolo: So--
Brown: Can I back up to a point?
Henzi: Mm-hmm--yeah.
Brown: This sign if you compare it to the one at the Farmington Road. Why we want
this--why I want it bigger plus it is classier looking. The arches don’t stand out--you
know--it’s boxed it looks--the one at Farmington has the arches over and then we have
our LED. This one is all contained and it’s--and you have to admit it’s a nicer look. It’s
a nicer sign. It looks just--well I’ll say it, classier.
Henzi: Were you here at the last meeting?
Brown: I sure was, how are you?
Pastor: She was here, I remember.
Henzi: Yeah, I remember we pounded that out--
Brown: Oh, we did and we did good.
Henzi: --with those signs, okay.
Brown: We worked together on it.
Henzi: But the picture that is in there, are you going to be flashing images like that?
Brown: No.
Palazzolo: It would be--
Henzi: This is a red text isn’t it?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 55 July 29, 2014
Palazzolo: The McDonalds--the M, is that what you’re talking about?
Henzi: No, the the McCafe.
Palazzolo: Yeah, the MC unit actually can display those images. It has the capability to
absolutely.
Henzi: But the one at Seven and Farmington--
Brown: No--no.
Henzi: --when I drive by only has red text?
Palazzolo: Right.
Brown: Right.
Palazzolo: That’s a different--a whole different kind of unit.
Brown: That’s kind of old now, now we are going new.
Henzi: Got it, okay.
Palazzolo: The new units can actually do--you know--the actual imaging. They can do
the--you can see a cup of coffee, you can see a french fry. Those other units those are
just the red-like you said they just display the numbers or the price or whatnot, so this is
the new sign that we are all going to.
Henzi: Okay. Thank you.
Brown: And it’s really not--I’m sorry, can I just interrupt like that?
Henzi: Go ahead.
Brown: It’s not really distracting because we do keep those on as you noticed the
Seven and Farmington. Like we have to go out and check and make sure our spelling
is right or something we are out there forever because it--because every five minutes
we change it or four and a half. We don’t let it go blinking and blinking. We don’t
change it, we keep it up there.
Henzi: Mr. Rhines.
Rhines: Excuse me, are you the owner of the McDonalds?
Brown: Supervisor.
Rhines: Okay. Of both of them?
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Rhines: What--next question--what do you--what else would be flashing besides the
McCafe? What--like examples--
Brown: It would be--
Rhines: --like a Big Mac Meal?
Brown: “96 is open, come on in.” You know, it would be--sorry I had to get my dig in
there, we’re dying. You know, Ronald’s here, promotions that type of thing.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 55 July 29, 2014
Rhines: Advertising like coupons? Like--
Brown: A double.
Rhines: --probably a dollar double cheeseburger for $1.99?
Brown: Yes, yeah, drinks are a dollar. New sandwiches, new promotions, new drive
through, new dining room, old management.
Rhines: Is there--I’m sorry--next question. Is there any--are there any of these signs
anywhere else that you can think of in the Livonia--Farmington Hills--Novi area doing
what this sign is going to do?
Palazzolo: I have no personal knowledge of that to be honest with you.
Brown: I don’t either. No, I don’t I would be guessing.
Rhines: Because you said this was a new sign that McDonalds is going to, is that what
you said?
Palazzolo: Yes.
Brown: Mm-hmm.
Palazzolo: Yes, this is the new--this is their new standard that they are going to be
going with.
Brown: And whatever works for that location.
Rhines: So the other franchises--franchisees are going to be encouraged to change to
this or just if you want to get a new franchise you would be--
Palazzolo: No, I think it’s going to be their standard and that’s what it is going to be.
Rhines: Everybody has to get on board?
Palazzolo: Yeah.
Brown: Jump on.
Rhines: So do you think you will be coming back here to ask for this type of lighted
sign--if you have to come back I don’t know if you will or not--with the other store?
Brown: No--no.
Palazzolo: At the other location?
Rhines: Yeah.
Palazzolo: I--
Brown: No.
Palazzolo: I don’t know how fast the turnover is on that to actually give you an answer if
it’s every five years, but that store was just done two years ago.
Rhines: And it may seem a little trivial but Livonia cares about everything being uniform
and everything looking nice--
Palazzolo: Sure.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 55 July 29, 2014
Rhines: --and so if all of the McDonalds in this area, if this is what people are going to
be used to seeing than it is easier for me to support.
Palazzolo: Right.
Rhines: If this is going to be the only one within twenty miles of here then--it’s just a
little different--you know--it doesn’t mean no, it’s just--I’m just trying to figure that out
here.
Palazzolo: Yeah, as far as how that actually works on the corporate level I can’t really
give you an answer as far as how these things turnover and what the change rate is or
when they come in and say that sign is too old now it’s time to change it. Like I said the
other location was just done two years ago. I highly doubt we are going back in there
any time soon to change that sign out.
Brown: We haven’t paid for it yet, we’re not changing it. I’m serious we’re not.
Palazzolo: But this location I’m not sure if--do you know that location there on
Middlebelt?
Rhines: Yeah, I live close.
Palazzolo: Okay, you know that has the old style arch out front with the red underneath
the McDonald, that’s like ancient in McDonalds standards. So that is where I believe a
lot of the changeover is coming because this is the way their monuments are going to
go from what I understand.
Rhines: Okay, thank you.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Let’s go back to the sign. You said--are both sides of the sign changeable?
Palazzolo: What is that, sir?
Pastor: Is both sides of this sign changeable, is the McDonald--
Palazzolo: Yes the copy--the copy is on both sides sir.
Pastor: So they could be flipping either side anytime they want?
Palazzolo: No they’ll be the same copy. They can’t change them like--I know what you
are trying to say you’ll have a different copy on one side, a different copy on the other
side. It works out--
Pastor: No--no--no--no, I’m talking about the M for the McDonalds--
Palazzolo: No, the M--
Pastor: --is that changeable?
Palazzolo: No, the M is not changeable.
Pastor: That is standard, it won’t--you cannot change it?
Palazzolo: Correct.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 55 July 29, 2014
Pastor: Can’t put a different picture on it?
Palazzolo: Correct, just where you see the McCafe--
Pastor: Right.
Palazzolo: --that is the only changeable copy on the sign.
Pastor: I could have sworn you said both sides are changeable but okay.
Palazzolo: I--I--when you said that or when I answered your question I thought you
meant one side to the other.
Pastor: Okay.
Henzi: Oh.
Palazzolo: Both sides if you could change one image from one side to the other. They
all run on one loop so whatever you see on this side of this side of the sign you are
going to see on the other side of the sign as well.
Pastor: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: You were talking about traffic northbound and southbound--
Palazzolo: Traffic flow north and southbound you will see the same image.
Henzi: Okay.
Palazzolo: Correct.
Fisher: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Fisher.
Fisher: How big is the message portion of the sign at the Farmington Road site?
Palazzolo: Let’s see, I have two foot five in height by 5.3.
Fisher: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Pastor: It is substantially smaller than this.
Fisher: Mm-hmm.
Caramagno: Mr. Chair, I have a question.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: This new digital sign the McCafe portion of it, the part that can change, is
this capable of running a moving--a motion--a picture or is it just an image?
Palazzolo: I believe it’s all on how they are programmed. Okay, to be honest with you
I’m not sure if that capability has video capability on these signs or if it is just a solid
image that you get. But I know that they can loop them in a time frame.
Caramagno: To change the picture?
Palazzolo: To change the picture correct.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 55 July 29, 2014
Caramagno: I have a questions for Mr. Fisher.
Palazzolo: Not that any of the signs that I have seen go up yet have video capability.
Caramagno: Mike, we don’t allow video on these signs yet do we?
Fisher: Well, no generally speaking there are people out there that something that
looks pretty close to video.
Caramagno: But it is not allowed in the ordinance? We don’t allow video?
Fisher: No, that’s right you are supposed to have just still images.
Caramagno: Still images not a video--
Fisher: Yes.
Caramagno: --production? I’m not for that at all.
Palazzolo: Correct. No, you’re right like I said as far as all the signs that I have seen
and have knowledge of they are just solid images that loop on a time frame basis.
Caramagno: And why again can’t this be the same size or similar in size to the
Farmington McDonalds?
Palazzolo: Well it is actually shorter than the one on Farmington.
Caramagno: Well two feet I realize that but as far as the digital portion of it why can’t it
be--
Palazzolo: It’s just a new configurement that McDonald’s image is going with. That’s
just their new corporate design and this is what they are trying to push for.
Caramagno: If their corporate design was 75 square feet how would that be different
than what we are talking about today? Would we be saying the same thing it’s just their
corporate design?
Palazzolo: Yeah, probably and that’s where it comes to you guys to give us some--
Caramagno: Reasonableness.
Palazzolo: --reasonableness for your neighborhoods and your zoning. So yes, that’s
probably the same pitch you’re going to hear five years from now: “its corporate
branding.” So where does it stop? It stops here with you as far as how much we can
do and also configure to what’s new and conforming and also keeping up with the times
and keeping things moving.
Caramagno: Sure.
Henzi: Anything else?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: So you know that they have this--whatever size this was--changeable copy sign
six foot seven by four foot five, what other sizes do they provide because I also know
that they provide many more sizes?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 55 July 29, 2014
Palazzolo: Okay, well the one here that we are talking about tonight is six foot seven by
four foot five--
Pastor: Yep.
Palazzolo: --so as far as any other signs that are out there I--
Pastor: You know--I know that the manufacturers supply different sizes.
Palazzolo: Well sure, we’re not--I’m sure they don’t make just one size sign. I mean is it
the actual square footage that we are over that is the concern?
Pastor: Yeah, because you are almost fifty percent over on square footage.
Palazzolo: Okay, no we are 24 square feet.
Pastor: And you are allowed 30, its pretty close, okay, I‘ll say it is forty percent over.
Palazzolo: Okay.
Pastor: That is a substantial number.
Palazzolo: Okay. Well this is where--I asked you guys earlier if you guys had a
suggestion for us. Would height be an issue if we lowered the sign? I mean that two
foot--what do we got there--two foot seven in height on the brick base really could be
lowered to bring the height of the sign down a little bit.
Pastor: I’m not asking--I’m asking the questions the other Board members can ask you
other questions. I’m just asking what other sizes--
Palazzolo: I don’t--to be honest with you sir for me to answer that I am not sure on
every single size they offer. I don’t.
Pastor: So you don’t know if they offer any other sizes?
Palazzolo: I really don’t. I honestly--I don’t have an answer for you to be honest with
you. I don’t have an answer for you on that.
Pastor: Just so you understand my background. I build restaurants. I do know what
they do for signage.
Palazzolo: Okay.
Pastor: And I can pretty much guarantee that they have different sizes.
Palazzolo: I did not deny you that they do have different sizes, what those sizes are is
what I said I don’t have an answer for you.
Pastor: That’s all I have for right now.
Henzi: Anything else?
Rhines: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Rhines.
Rhines: Do you have a copy of something from corporate that this is what they are
going with for--
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 55 July 29, 2014
Palazzolo: This is the only copy the same thing you are looking at that I am supplied
with.
Rhines: Okay. And this doesn’t--it doesn’t give us any type of assurances that--you
know--whether McDonalds is insisting upon this new design or it’s just a
recommendation. Do you have any documentation about that? And I think the Board’s
been burned in the past with a--if I remember correctly with a restaurant that said they
had to have a particular signage for their corporate--for their corporate and that all signs
were going to be that way and it turned out that none of the other of that chain--it wasn’t
McDonalds--ever ended up with a sign that looked like that. So--
Palazzolo: Any assurances--
Rhines: --I kind of want--
Palazzolo: A McDonalds?
Rhines: It was not a McDonalds I don’t think.
Palazzolo: Okay.
Rhines: I’m just trying to find out that in fact that--I mean--you know--we don’t
necessarily--I don’t want to stand in the way of the branding and if all the McDonalds
are going to end up with a sign that looks like this then I want ours to look modern too. I
just don’t want ours to be the only one--you know--so I’m just looking for some sort of
verification from the corporate that they are either forcing new franchisees to go with
this or encouraging, subsidizing?
Palazzolo: You have to understand we are only given so much information on this stuff.
As far as what is changing and what we have to do for them as the installer as well we
don’t get every piece of information from them when it comes to that. I really wish I had
an answer for you but I don’t know if that stuff is ten years in secret--you know--on that
level or how long this information is there.
Rhines: You’re fine, I don’t expect you to have an answer for every questions. It was
just a question that I was wondering if there was an answer to.
Palazzolo: I wish I had more answers for you, I do, I just don’t.
Brown: I know what he is saying is true, I’m trying to think how I can validate it too.
Other than--I was hoping one of this documentation here would be from Oak Brook,
meaning McDonalds but it is not. So, you know McDonalds does partner with their
licensees in projects, they do partner. But that is just insane that I don’t have that to
show you--you know because this is a partnership because we are going to be doing a
lot of remodels in the coming year--two years.
Henzi: Anything else?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: You say they are going to do a lot of remodels, how many stores are you
associated with?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 55 July 29, 2014
Brown: Me, two.
Pastor: That is all the owner owns?
Brown: Yes.
Pastor: So why are you saying you’re going to be doing a lot of remodels?
Brown: Well remodel eventually in the next two or three years we would like to get the
dining room done, the building.
Pastor: Okay.
Brown: We’re getting the drive through--
Pastor: I took it as you had thirty stores and--
Brown: I like to talk big, sorry.
Pastor: That’s okay. Thank you very much.
Henzi: Anything else?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: The electronic portion of this sign is six foot seven by four and a half feet
basically?
Palazzolo: Yes, four foot five.
Caramagno: When I look up stairs here these are two feet. Two, four, six, the electronic
portion of that sign is that big?
Pastor: Yep.
Caramagno: That’s a pretty good size isn’t it?
Palazzolo: That is a very good size.
Henzi: Six tiles?
Caramagno: Three.
Pastor: Three tiles.
Caramagno: Three by two.
Pastor: And actually slightly bigger than what he is saying.
Rhines: Three and a half by two and a half or so.
Caramagno: What’s that?
Rhines: They are actually three and a half tiles by two and a half tiles.
Caramagno: That kind of puts ourselves--
Palazzolo: Now the unit in Farmington is five foot three.
Caramagno: Five foot three what?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 55 July 29, 2014
Palazzolo: In length.
Rhines: The advertising portion?
Palazzolo: Yeah, the actual VHC portion--
Caramagno: By what?
Palazzolo: By two and a half feet tall in height. But the actual arch stands at three foot
eleven above it with a one foot four inch copy underneath it so that total sign height is at
ten feet tall.
Caramagno: I am looking more at the electronic portion. I am looking at that and
saying it’s pretty substantial size.
Palazzolo: No, I understand what you are saying as far as that goes but you’ve got to
look at the overall size of the sign itself too. I mean you are losing the arches, you are
losing the overall height. The sign is actually shorter, it’s more compact.
Henzi: It’s--I’m sorry to cut you off but--the heart burn this Board has had has been on
the reader board portion. I mean they weren’t even allowed three years ago.
Palazzolo: Right.
Henzi: Even gas stations couldn’t have--couldn’t post their prices electronically. And so
Livonia has been kind of baby steps with respect to reader boards. And so that’s kind of
what we are looking at. I personally don’t have any problem with the height or anything
it’s the reader board. Because the reader board portion of this one is--you know what
two--two and a half times bigger than one on Seven and Farmington.
Palazzolo: Okay.
Henzi: And I understand it is a different product, but for me that is really my concern is
the reader board portion.
Rhines: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Rhines.
Rhines: Question for Mr. Fisher.
Fisher: Go ahead.
Rhines: If the sign fit within the size would they need a variance to have the digital
portion the way they are proposing it with still images looping every four and a half
minutes?
Fisher: The video or digital portion of any sign is not supposed to be bigger than half of
the sign face. So this really if you could imagine a third column on your notice that
would say allowed is fifteen square feet and proposed is thirty for the--just for the
electronic portion itself.
Rhines: Couldn’t it--thank you. I mean--you know--he said they are open for
suggestions what if we--what if the digital portion was the same size as the in portion
there so the entire sign would be five foot wide by four and a half foot tall not including
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 55 July 29, 2014
the base--brick base. So then you would have only four and a half by five would be the
digital portion and then they would be pretty--
Fisher: Well--
Rhines: --they would be much closer--or they would be closer to the allowable size and
the digital portion would be the same size as the non-digital portion which would fit into
the ordinance that way as well. Just as a little bit of a horse trading idea here.
Palazzolo: No, and I understand what you are saying but they’ve got this pretty well
figured out as far as from distance of what you can see from the road wise. If that
screen is much smaller than what it is not, the McCafe is going to look so small. The
copy itself would almost be illegible. So they’ve got the math figured out and I’m sure
Mr. Pastor knows this from building restaurants. They’ve got it figured out pretty well to
the size that they need to actually make it a visible copy from a distance. So--
Pastor: I guess it depends on how long that distance is.
Palazzolo: It does, it really does. And I mean that sign set from the right of way there
Middlebelt that sign sits quite a ways off the road. I mean do you want to see this?
Henzi: Sure.
Palazzolo: Can I approach? All right. I don’t know what the right term was to use
there. I’m Italian so we are used to court. Mr. Caramagno try to find that funny.
Caramagno: No, I got you baby. It immediately brings a question to mind of how big
is that sign.
Palazzolo: That’s a good question, I don’t have the dimension on that sign with me.
Henzi: For the existing?
Palazzolo: The preexisting sign. But from the looks of it, it doesn’t look much smaller
than we are proposing.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I’ve got your site plan here and you say you are only doing the road sign but
I’ve got two blue marks on the menu boards as well?
Palazzolo: Okay.
Pastor: So it kind of coordinates with why the menu board literature is in here as well.
Fisher: I can answer that actually.
Pastor: Okay, thank you.
Fisher: They supplied all that stuff to the Inspection Department when they came in for
the original permit and there was some thought that they might ask for a variance for
that too, but because if you look at your site plan these menu boards are--appear to be
invisible from the road. And it’s really the road visibility of signage that we care about
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 55 July 29, 2014
we just didn’t go any further with that. So I am sorry that we didn’t purge those pictures
out of there but you don’t have to worry about them.
Pastor: So in other words the department is allowing no matter what we say on the
front sign the back sign is happening because they are not considered signage?
Fisher: Yeah, the menu boards are really out of our bailiwick.
Pastor: I got that. Thank you.
Henzi: Anything else? Any other questions? Is there anybody in the audience that
wants to speak for or against the project? I see no one coming forward. Can you read
the letters?
Caramagno: A letter of objection from Eric Wolfe, 11900 Middlebelt (letter read).
Henzi: Anything you want to say in closing?
Palazzolo: That guy is a sign hater. You know everyone is going to have their opinion
as far as how many signs are out there, or how big they are, or how much they--you
really can’t put a--their own personal idea on their doing business. I came here with the
open mind that if you had a suggestion that we would work with you or work somehow
to make it comply. My idea right away was to make it smaller in height to bring it down
a notch. The actual size of the EMC unit myself I didn’t think--I’ve seen these in the
past I didn’t--I know the site, making the sign itself smaller the copy just become
unreadable, it is almost pointless. So that is where I was getting at maybe just working
with you and reducing the actual overall height on the sign. Seeing as we already set
some sort of a precedence on the Farmington site with the height elevation that we
were allowed there. So in that I close and I thank you for your time.
Henzi: Okay. Thanks. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s
comments with Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Well, I don’t have a problem with the height, that doesn’t bother me one bit. I do
have a problem with the square footage. Your other store that we did two years ago
was 48 square feet. I think I have even more of a problem with the way you divided the
sign up. As Mr. Fisher said I believe it is not supposed to be larger than half and this is
substantially larger than half. So I will not be in support of this. I will be in support of a
tabling motion once again because I don’t think it is our obligation to negotiate with you.
I think it is your obligation to tell us what is available. I don’t have a problem with
signage although that McDonalds does have a lot of signs on the windows. I went by
today and there are two big M’s on the windows. A big McDonalds on the building, so
another M at the street I’m not really sure why you really need that but that’s my
comments.
Henzi: Mr. Schepis.
Schepis: It looks like what was approved at another location this is a fair amount bigger
in a couple of ways. But yeah I think I would leave it at that and say that is a big
difference.
Henzi: Mr. Rhines.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 55 July 29, 2014
Rhines: Yeah, I’d like to see some more information. You know that you said that
McDonalds has figured out that that is how big they need in order to read it. I don’t
even need to--you know if they put a Big Mac up there I don’t even need to see the
word Big Mac. You know McDonalds is just part of society and everybody is going to
know hey, that is a Big Mac. Most people are going to know it is a Big Mac. You know
obviously a business would like to go as large as they possibly could so they could be
seen from as far away as they possibly could without--you know--within what the City
would allow and what the neighbors would tolerate. So McDonalds have more than just
that’s what visible. I mean they want it to be as big as they can get it without being
offensive to everybody because the bigger the better. The further away people can
read it from. I like the way--I like the plan that you are modernizing and I like the idea
that our McDonalds is going to be one of the--is going to look more modern and I think
that is a good thing. But the--you know--the digital signs are new to the City and I don’t
just want to haphazardly--you know--throw caution to the wind and say that we are
going to throw away that ratio. We want the digital portion to be no larger than the non-
digital portion. And here it is not just a little bit bigger it’s--you know--almost a third
bigger.
Palazzolo: So if we had that divided evenly 50/50 on that frontage that would be what
you are getting at as your--you’d be more willing to--
Rhines: You would eliminate one of the major road blocks in my mind if--
Palazzolo: Well they could narrow down all the road blocks right now. I mean to be
honest with you--
Henzi: Well, let him finish.
Palazzolo: Yeah, I’m just saying--
Henzi: We’ll go around and if we are going to horse trade which I will suggest then we
will talk about it.
Palazzolo: Okay, all right.
Rhines: Yeah, I can’t speak for everybody so I know you would like to eliminate all the
problems but one of the problems is that difference. And I can only speak for one
person and that would help it with me. You know the overall size of the sign I would
listen to the thoughts of the people who have been on the Board a lot longer than me
and have done a lot more signs than me and I would listen to their comments about the
overall size of the sign. Thank you.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Well, I think a sign has to be effective there is no doubt about it. There is
no sense putting it up if it not going to grab what you need. But right off jump street I
thought this was a little bit and I think the--especially the electronic portion is big. If
perhaps it was reduced in size and height and the electronic portion was more
proportioned and reduced to some extent I could be in support. When I look upstairs
here and I see this size comparison I think that is pretty darn big. That’s pretty big for a
McDonalds. I heard you mention the traffic and the road going by that was never said
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 55 July 29, 2014
until the end though--it was never said until the end. Initially this is what we want--this is
what we want--this is what we want. And in the end you said well the traffic and this is
what McDonalds think the size is they need. But I didn’t hear that until almost the end
and my mind was just about made up by then anyhow. But I think a reduction is what I
need to see yet be effective.
Henzi: I would approve something similar to Seven and Farmington, 48 square feet, 24
square feet for each component, 24 square feet arch, 24 square digital reader board. I
don’t want to table it, I think we should hammer it out. We did it successfully for the
Seven and Farmington store, let’s figure it out. Let’s figure out whether there is
consensus or deny one way or the other.
Caramagno: I’m in.
Pastor: Well, Mr. Chair, he doesn’t know what size they have in reader boards is what
he told us.
Palazzolo: Well you can give me the numbers and I mean--
Henzi: Yeah, but if we tell him then either he can build it or he can’t.
Palazzolo: Right.
Pastor: Okay.
Palazzolo: So are we locked in at 48 square feet?
Henzi: Set? Good with everyone else or do you want to go smaller? I mean I’m good
with that.
Palazzolo: And you want 50/50 on the copy? On the portions of the sign?
Henzi: Yes. Okay, the floor is open for a motion.
Caramagno: You got it?
Rhines: Sure.
Palazzolo: Whoa, one more thing, the height.
Henzi: Oh, I didn’t have a problem with the height.
Palazzolo: Okay, so we are good with the height.
Henzi: The height is granted in my opinion.
Palazzolo: Okay. All right. Okay.
Upon Motion by Rhines supported by Caramagno, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-07-40 An appeal has been made to the Zoning
Board of Appeals by Associates Limited Partnership, 11800 Middlebelt, Livonia, MI
48150, on behalf of lessee McDonalds, 11800 Middlebelt, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to
construct one ground sign, resulting in the ground sign being excess in height, area and
containing an electronic message center, which is more than one half in area of the sign
face.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 55 July 29, 2014
Ground Sign Height: Ground Sign Area:
Allowed: 6 ft. Allowed: 30 sq. ft.
Proposed: 8 ft. Proposed: 54 sq. ft..
Excess: 2 ft. Excess: 24 sq. ft.
As revised by the Board with Petitioner’s concurrence:
Ground Sign Height: Ground Sign Area:
Allowed: 6 ft. Allowed: 30 sq. ft.
Proposed: 8 ft. Proposed: 48 sq. ft.
Excess: 2 ft. Excess: 18 sq. ft.
The property is located on the east side of Middlebelt (11800) between the CSX Railroad
and Plymouth, Lot No. 099-99-0007-006, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection
Department under Zoning Ordinance No. 543, Section 18.50H(a)1, 18.50H(m) and
be granted as
18.50H(o)1 “Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts”,
modified for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The alleged hardships and practical difficulties are particular to the petitioner’s
property and do not exist generally throughout the city because this petitioner’s
property is a corporation and they are trying to conform with the corporate branding
standards.
2. Denial of the variance would cause hardships for the petitioner beyond mere
inconvenience and/or an inability to earn a higher financial return because they are
trying to remodel to the new standard of branding for McDonalds.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and the spirit of
the zoning ordinance because the proposed sign has been reduced to a size that
is similar with other McDonald’s signs and it’s not too much of an increase over
what would be allowed by ordinance.
4. The variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objectives of the Master Plan
because this property is classified for “General Commercial”.
Further, that the variance be granted with the following conditions:
1. The petitioner must complete the project within six months.
2. The project shall be completed according to the plans and specifications
presented by the petitioner.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 55 July 29, 2014
3. The sign shall be no larger than forty-eight (48) square feet and the digital
portion of the sign shall be not more than half of the total sign area.
4. That the sign complies with all of the requirements of the Livonia City
Council as stated at the January 27, 2014 meeting.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Rhines, Caramagno, Pastor, Schepis, Henzi
NAYS: None
ABSENT: Sills, Bowling
Henzi: So it is granted, you’ve got six months to build it. You’ve got to build it as
presented at 48 square feet, 24 square feet reader board, 24 square feet arch. And
then the Council requirements which is already sort of approved other portions of the
remodeling is incorporated into the variance.
Palazzolo: Okay.
Henzi: Thank you very much.
Palazzolo: Thank you.
Rhines: Thank you.
Palazzolo: Have a good evening.
Henzi: You too.
Rhines: Since you guys need a little bit more paperwork this is a little cheat sheet I
created. Mr. Fisher, this was okay?
Fisher: Yeah, it’s pretty cool, I was very impressed with your diligence in tackling this
task.
Burklow: Can I see what you are doing?
Rhines: I am just trying to show everybody else up, just kidding.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 55 July 29, 2014
APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-07-41 An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of
Appeals by Trenton McCarty, 31331 Munger, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a six
foot tall privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in the fence being excess in height,
not aligning with any fence on adjoining property, and the fence being located within the
side yard, which is not allowed. Privacy fences must end at the rear line of the home.
Privacy Fence Height within the Corner Side Yard
:
Allowed: 5 ft.
Proposed: 6 ft.
Excess: 1 ft.
The property is located on the south side of Munger (31331) between Merriman and
East End, Lot No. 054-01-0021-004, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection
Department under Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090(A),4bi,4bii and
15.44.090(B) “Residential District Regulations.”
Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer anything to add to this case?
DeMeyer: Not at this time, Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Any questions for Dennis? Hearing none, good evening.
McCarty: Good evening.
Henzi: Can you tell us your name and address?
McCarty: Trenton McCarty, 31331 Munger, Livonia, Michigan.
Henzi: Go ahead and tell us about the fence you want to build.
McCarty: What I would like to do, I am assuming you guys have all been by my
property. The backyard of my house there is a driveway in the back. I am right at the
corner of Merriman and Munger. If--I can carry the fence around the west side of the
property and go up to where I’d like per your ordinance code. But the back end, the
other side toward Merriman which is a major thoroughfare I have to stop at the back
corner of the home. The problem is security. I have a four and a six year old son. If--I
am going to be forced to put a gate at that back corner which I am not going to be able
to see visibly from any point in my house with the exception of the sliding glass door in
the back. You know, I’ve had a couple issues where people can actually drive up my
drive way and through back to the other driveway on the side of my house. I’d like to
eliminate that for safety reasons as well as I would like to bring the fence up to the
garage line so I could put my gate there. It gives me more security so I can see if
anyone is breaching my gates at all. I think it is a pretty fair request. Vinyl fence and
I’m doing premium vinyl which will only come in six foot height, it doesn’t come five feet
so it has to be six. If I could find a custom made five foot with the grade of my property
line it wouldn’t be too much privacy because it kind of swoops down so the houses two
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 55 July 29, 2014
down on Munger could see into my backyard. And I would like privacy back there you
know. That is kind of the reason we bought a half an acre.
Henzi: Do you have--I can’t remember are there ground level windows on the Merriman
side?
McCarty: No, there are ground level windows on the west side of--the other side of
Munger. What I am going to do where my air conditioner is, I’m going to bring the
fence up and split between that basement window that is called a daylight basement--
between that window and the air conditioner to make sure that no one can get in that
window either.
Henzi: I guess I didn’t follow--for me really the concern is why does it need to come up
to the garage and I understand you made a valid point about tying into the garage and
make the gate there.
McCarty: Yeah.
Henzi: But you said something about not being able to see?
McCarty: Well, if--
Henzi: Are you saying from the house you can’t see onto--
McCarty: I can’t see the outside of my gate--
Henzi: --the Merriman side right there?
McCarty: Yeah, I can’t. I have a small kitchen window, then I’ve got a laundry room that
is right at the garage line. So if someone is trying to get into that gate there--I mean we
get a lot of walkers that are up and down that street with is fine I really haven’t had any
issues but I can’t see that gate line. Where if I have it go up to my driveway line, I think
it will look fantastic by the way--but if I have it go up there I can see from either my
garage, I can look out the laundry window. If my kids are playing outside I can see if
they are out by the gate to deter them from being over there. It’s safer for me and my
family. You know it’s safer for my wife. I work a lot, she stays home with the boys and
I want to enjoy the yard. The other thing I’m going to lose heck thirty--I’d lose about
twenty-five feet--the police came out and I have to go thirteen feet on the inside of the
sidewalk--I don’t know if they left you guys copies of that--in order for visibility strictly
because of my neighbor behind me with the drive there. And I will have to go ten feet
from the inside of his driveway line which will leave my back property roughly--I don’t
know 45 feet or so. And on the other side I’m still going to pick up another 26 feet
roughly or something like that. I want to enjoy my yard. That is a lot of yard that I lose
and we are not going to be playing or hanging out on the Merriman side of my property.
But I am more concerned with the safety to be honest with you, I want to see my gates.
Henzi: And you are the only owner since this lot split in construction?
McCarty: Yes--yes.
Henzi: Okay. Any questions?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 55 July 29, 2014
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Who is doing the fence?
McCarty: You know I don’t have a contractor yet. I’ve got four different guys, I’m going
to hire it out.
Caramagno: Okay.
McCarty: I’ve got bids anywhere from $8500.00 to $9800.00. I haven’t decided yet. I
don’t know where I am at with you guys so I really can’t make the decision until I know
what I am doing. I had--a permit was issued and then they realized I was on the corner
lot and it had to be brought back to you guys and I wanted this done about a month and
a half ago.
Caramagno: I see you made some adjustments to what your original thinking was huh?
McCarty: Well here is kind of the story, Sam. I initially said I was going to go all the way
up to the side of the garage all the way up to the back side of the house to include the
air conditioner and the utilities. Then I figured out it wasn’t that easy in Livonia by your
ordinances. So I did a little research and I went back--my wife agreed, she said you
know what we will just go off the back lot line to the house which we understood was
your ordinance here. So I went back and re-proposed it to avoid going back to sit in
front of you guys so I can get my fence done quicker. Then I paid for the permit actually
at the Building Department and then they called me two days later and said you can’t do
that you are a corner lot and you have to go straight off the back line of the house. So
at this point I’m like well heck if I’m going to go for it I might as well run the fence right
up to the driveline like I originally wanted which I think is the best bet anyhow. I think it
is going to look great when I’m done. It is going to be nice for the neighborhood.
Caramagno: Here is the original that he was going to do. He was going--this was in the
package.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Caramagno: I’ve got no more--no.
Henzi: You’ve got the approval from your neighbor, Mr. McCarty, right?
McCarty: I got approved from two neighbors, a couple of my other neighbors the 300
foot rule where you mailed it, they said go for it. I don’t know what they wrote in, if they
wrote in. But I’ve had no objections to it. You know our property is spaced out enough
no one really sees my backyard anyhow. In fact, my one neighbor behind me said that I
would rather look at a nice vinyl fence in your backyard. You know there’s going to be a
teeter totter, a swing set and a jungle gym, they don’t want to look at that, they would
rather see a nice privacy fence.
Henzi: Okay. There is no one in the audience. Did anyone have any more questions?
Can you read the letters?
Caramagno: Letters of approval from Harry Lau, 15125 Farmington Road (letter read),
Sheryl Vasilnek and Ronald Vasilnek, 16732 Merriman Road (letter read), and a letter of
objection from Charles Fugate, 31069 Munger (letter read).
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 55 July 29, 2014
Henzi: Mr. McCarty anything you want to say in closing?
McCarty: No.
Henzi: Thank you. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s
comments with Mr. Schepis.
Schepis: Can I take a pass for just a minute?
Henzi: Yep, absolutely. Mr. Rhines.
Rhines: Well, obviously when you built the house you knew that it had a lot of visibility
from Merriman Road it was pretty well exposed there.
McCarty: Right.
Rhines: You know you are allowed to put in five foot tall privacy fence pretty much
everywhere you want to go except for you know around the side closer to Merriman
Road. It’s not a--it’s definitely not a cookie cutter neighborhood there are houses that
have different distances off the road throughout the neighborhood. Some are new and
some are older and they sit back a little further. You know the only--the only thing I
wouldn’t mind seeing if it was maybe 20 feet away from that main road. I know the
police department said that it needed to be 13 for safety, I’ve always been kind of an
overdoer. Thirteen is what is needed for safety--you know since we are giving a
variance for something that--you know there was a reason why it wasn’t allowed I do
understand you want to come up towards the--towards the garage for the safety of that--
it was either a side entry door or ground level window there?
McCarty: Correct.
Rhines: If there was support with the rest of the Board members I would also support
having it maybe 20 feet away from the sidewalk. But in general--
McCarty: I mean from the road I’m going to be 13 feet to the sidewalk plus I’ve the right
of way area which is I would say all of 20 feet in itself. So I am going to be far off the
road anyhow when you stated off the road.
Rhines: Okay, maybe I’m looking at this--this layout here a little bit wrong.
McCarty: Yeah, I think--
Rhines: How far is the fence going to be from the road?
McCarty: Well, it doesn’t show my distance from the road actually unless I can’t read
the plan correctly but to the sidewalk I am 31 feet and I’ve got to go 13 feet back from
that. You’re going to be a fair distance from the road.
Rhines: Strike that comment, I was looking at that wrong. So yeah, I guess the overall
consensus is--you know this is not inconsistent with some variances that have been
granted before for similar reasons. So I don’t have a problem supporting it.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 55 July 29, 2014
Caramagno: Well you are proposing a quality fence here and you are going to back off
the road considerably farther than other homes just--Merriman closer to Five Mile.
Those fences are much closer they are right on the sidewalk a lot of them.
McCarty: Right.
Caramagno: I think this will look good. You are certainly going to need privacy if you’ve
got children there. That’s very understandable. I like your comment about where the
gate needs to be. I don’t think I would like to see any more gates on the back side of
this to pull out to this other guys driveway, I don’t think that is cool. So I think that
should be the only gate--we didn’t talk about how big it was going to be.
McCarty: I’m going to do a five foot gate on the front side.
Caramagno: Okay.
McCarty: In fact even off of his driveway I’m going to go ten feet beyond to allow him to
plow because I’m not going to spend ten grand on a fence and have him plow it down.
Caramagno: Right.
McCarty: You know--so--yeah--
Caramagno: Sure, so I am in approval of this.
McCarty: --he is going to get some room back there as well.
Caramagno: I think it is going to look nice. I think it is going to be appropriate for
privacy purposes and safety too.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I think I can support this. I think it is actually a pretty good plan compared to
some of the other plans we have seen in the past. It has plenty of room off the
sidewalk, got plenty of room off the neighbor’s drive. Quite frankly, I am surprised he
didn’t ask to take the other side almost across where the driveway was. But I will be in
support of this. It looks like a beautiful fence and good luck.
Henzi: Yeah, I too will support it. This is a situation--oh, Mr. Schepis did you want
make a comment.
Schepis: No, I think I will just echo what has been said. It’s a nice fence and I think that
makes sense.
Henzi: Okay. You know this was a lot that was split. The City has now created this
house that exists on Merriman Road with a side yard and it deserves a fence. I kind of
saw this coming.
McCarty: Right.
Henzi: So I like the plan too. I think it is good looking. I think you gave valid reasons
for why you need to bring it up towards the front so I have no problem with the fence.
McCarty: Fantastic.
Henzi: So the floor is open for a motion.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 55 July 29, 2014
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Upon Motion by Caramagno supported by Pastor, it was:
RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2014-07-41 An appeal has been made to the
Zoning Board of Appeals by Trenton McCarty, 31331 Munger, Livonia, MI 48154,
seeking to erect a six foot tall privacy fence upon a corner lot, resulting in the fence
being excess in height, not aligning with any fence on adjoining property, and the fence
being located within the side yard, which is not allowed. Privacy fences must end at the
rear line of the home.
Privacy Fence Height within the Corner Side Yard
:
Allowed: 5 ft.
Proposed: 6 ft.
Excess: 1 ft.
The property is located on the south side of Munger (31331) between Merriman and
East End, Lot No. 054-01-0021-004, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection
Department under Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090(A),4bi,4bii and
be granted for the following reasons
15.44.090(B) “Residential District Regulations,”
and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the home was recently built off a
split lot on Merriman Road.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because it would not allow him to utilize his back yard or side yard and
because of the safety and privacy issues associated with a home on a major
road.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the
spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because there are other similar fences on
major thoroughfares throughout the City that are much closer to the road.
4. The Board received two letters of approval and one letter of objection from
neighboring property owners.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 55 July 29, 2014
5. The property is classified as “low density residential” in the Master Plan and
the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification.
FURTHER,
This variance is granted with the following conditions:
1. That the vinyl fence be constructed as presented tonight.
2. That the fence be constructed within six (6) months.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Rhines, Schepis, Henzi
NAYS: None
ABSENT: Sills, Bowling
Henzi: The variance is granted with those two conditions that Sam read.
McCarty: Fantastic.
Henzi: Do you want to start tomorrow? Do you want us to waive the five day waiting
period?
McCarty: Yeah, I’m going to start right away. I’ve got to select a contractor I’m going to
go through my bid process. I am going out of town this weekend but next week we will
start. You have to wait five days?
Henzi: Yes.
Fisher: It sounds like you are going to wait five days anyhow.
Henzi: It sounds like it is not an issue.
McCarty: Yeah, I am not going to start digging tomorrow, I’ve got to make my final
choice on my contractor.
Henzi: Okay, all right, very good, good luck.
McCarty: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much I appreciate it.
Henzi: Thank you.
Pastor: Tick tock, the clock is ticking.
McCarty: Rats this big.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 55 July 29, 2014
Henzi: Patty, do you want us to approve these minutes, they are in the packet but my
sheet says none?
Burklow: I have no idea.
Pastor: Yeah, they were in the packet we got today, not in the packet we got--
Henzi: Okay, never mind.
Burklow: I do have a--are we adjourned?
Pastor: No, do you want us to adjourn? I make a motion to adjourn.
Caramagno: Support.
There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned at
9:03 p.m.
__________________________
SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary
___________________________
MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman
/pcb
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 55 July 29, 2014