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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MEETING 2015-03-24 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING HELD MARCH 24, 2015 A Special Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Auditorium of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, March 24, 2015. MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman Sam Caramagno, Secretary Craig Pastor Robert Bowling Robert Sills Gregory Coppola Ben Schepis MEMBERS ABSENT: None OTHERS PRESENT: Mike Fisher, City Attorney Scott Kearfott, City Inspector Patricia C. Burklow, CER-8225 The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Seven (7) members were present this evening. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 11 people present in the audience. (7:05) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 16 March 24, 2015 APPEAL CASE NO. 2015-03-09: Bell Creek Community Church, 30000 5 Mile Road, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a ground sign which includes a portion that shall contain an electronic message board, which is not allowed in this zoning district. Electronic message board/signs are allowed in commercial districts only. The property is located on the north side of Five Mile Road (30000), between Oporto and Hidden Lane, Lot. No. 056-99-0003-003, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H,(o),5, “Sign Regulations in C- 1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts.” Henzi: Mr. Kearfott, anything to add to that case? Kearfott: Not at this time. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Kearfott? Hearing none, will the petitioner representative come to the podium? Lindman: Joel Lindman, I’m Pastor of Bell Creek Community Church. Address, 37043 Forest Court, Farmington Hills, 48335. We just recently purchased Faith Lutheran Church. For twelve years we’ve been renting Franklin High School without a sign. And we are putting lots of money into the church and our desire today to change the sign number one is to upgrade it. This particular sign will be smaller. It will be less bright than what is currently out front in the way of lighting. And the backdrop behind wanting a message center, I’ve got a list of events that we are going to be holding for the community from now until the end of the year and I’d like to pass this out so you can see what we’re proposing. Church attendance in Livonia is at an all-time low. Churches are facing the challenge of media saturated culture from the internet to every social media in between. And sadly churches get lost in that shuffle. The other challenge we as pastors have and as churches have in Livonia there are so many activities that families can engage in and it is very difficult when you are relying on strictly just donations to establish yourself and have a vital church that will be ministering to the community. And before you are just some of the events that we would like to promote. Now in the past renting a high school we had to use door hangers, which neighbors don’t appreciate. We’ve done some direct mailing but that’s quite costly. One of the most effective tools we’ve had in the last five weeks of having our doors open has been a sign out front. I’m amazed at how many people now realize we are in the City. What we are asking for is a sign that is smaller, less bright. We’d like the same opportunity that the three high schools have. They’re all located in neighborhoods. They all have electronic message centers. Wilson Barn owned by the City has an electronic message center located in a neighborhood. The VFW Hall just north of Churchill High School has an electronic message center. And of course the Rec Center but that is not in a neighborhood. Our purpose strictly is to be able to promote community activities, family activities. We even propose taking the sign and at night say after 9:30 simply off the message center if that were an issue. I have the manufacturer of the sign and he has all the specs. We understand that these signs need to be turned down. We don’t want it bright. Last thing we want as a church is to come across as a City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 16 March 24, 2015 commercial enterprise, come across as something that has a lot of flash. We do want to build within the neighborhood but primarily we are living in a culture that needs family stability. We want to offer that as a church. One of the most effective tools we have is to be able to invite people through the sign. Right now I believe the traffic volume on Five Mile during the day is about 25,000 cars a day. It gives us something we haven’t had in twelve years and primarily to minister to those in the community. Henzi: Pastor Lindman, one of the things on your application states that there are other churches in Livonia? Lindman: That was written-- Henzi: Was that a mistake? Lindman: That is a mistake, that’s not--I wish I would have--we were jockeying between the manufacturer and myself and that is not true. Henzi: Okay. And then you gave us a handout so is that to demonstrate that these are the types of things-- Lindman: That’s what-- Henzi: --you would broadcast? Lindman: Right. Henzi: The church schedule and also-- Lindman: That kind of thing. Most of--obviously we have the internal communication system. People show up on Sunday that is well communicated. Much of those events you have there are community events. We did a lot of it at Franklin High School but the challenge at Franklin when you are renting on a Sunday we also rented McKinley Elementary School for our offices. When you have no sign, no way to communicate, it is very--very difficult. So, we found that the people will come if there is something of value, something that ministers to families. Henzi: Then I had a couple questions about the sign. Is it a video board or is it LED text only? Lindman: It has the capability for both, we would be using it very similar to the high schools. Probably not as bright as that in that we won’t show any video on it. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the petitioner’s representative? Lindman: I have all the technical data, the manufacturer is here. So that part can-- Henzi: Okay. Any questions? Pastor: I would like to hear from the manufacturer. Henzi: Oh, okay. If you want to have him come up and talk about the specs of the sign. Kolacky: Hello, I am a little bit under the weather so I apologize for my voice right now. My name is Andrew Kolacky. I am with Metro Detroit Signs. My address is 1117 East City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 16 March 24, 2015 Breckenridge, Ferndale, Michigan, 48220. I guess I just have to ask did you guys have any specific questions on the way the sign works, or the specs behind the sign? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I’d like to know all the specs. Is this moving video? Is it only line text? The brightness of it? Kolacky: Again, as Joel said it has the capability of moving video, it has the capability of line text, but we would pretty much leave it up to you guys to let us know what way we are able to utilize the sign. I know with all your other electronic message boards you have certain specifications on how long a message can be up there before it changes. How many times it can change during the day. So we would kind of expect a similar set of rules for use on this sign. As far as the brightness goes this is a--I mean it is a technical thing but it is 7000 to 11,000 cd/m² NITS which I know probably doesn’t make much sense. But basically it has 32 different brightness settings and it has an automatic dimmer on it also for daytime and nighttime. So the brightness level can basically be set at anything. And then as Joel said when it gets dark out if people are concerned about it being over bright it can literally be turned down to the lowest dimming level or just be shut off throughout the night. Henzi: Any other questions for Mr. Kolacky? Coppola: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: Just a quick question. The auto dim or the auto off is that--can you set that so that it goes with dusk? Kolacky: Yeah, it can be set automatically with dusk, with morning, with nighttime, for as long as you want. It is basically a sensor that indicates--that recognizes how much light is outside and then it adjusts according to that. Coppola: That’s all I have. Henzi: Okay, thank you. Kolacky: Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Fisher, I had a question for you particularly since we have some new members aboard. Can you explain to them why places like Wilson Barn, the three high schools, the Rec Center and the VFW can have an electronic reader board? Fisher: Well, the Wilson Barn was an appalling blunder that never should have been issued. The high schools are outside of your zoning jurisdiction so the high schools site plans are approved by the superintendent of public instruction, not by the city of Livonia. Was there another example or was that it? Henzi: The VFW by Churchill. Fisher: Oh, I don’t know anything about the VFW. Did that case come here? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 16 March 24, 2015 Henzi: I don’t remember it. Fisher: It may be that it is commercially zoned and that’s consistent with--they may have just got a permit by virtue of qualifying. Henzi: Okay. Any other questions for the petitioner’s representative? Hearing none, is there anyone-- Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: What is the size of the electronic portion of this sign? I don’t see the size of it unless I missed it somewhere? Kolacky: The size of the EMC proposed is going to be 25 inches by 50 inches. So basically two feet by four feet. And also just to add one more thing. The current sign is obviously a lot larger than this one and really at night the brightness level of that one with it being internally lit with fluorescent bulbs and also having spot lights on it, is really going to be a lot brighter than this new proposed sign. So you are not going to have any issue really as Joel was saying with this being brighter at night. But it’s not a very large message board it’s again basically two feet by four feet. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: How big is the existing sign? Kolacky: The existing sign I would say--I don’t have the measurements in front of me but it is probably close to five feet by ten feet. It’s also out of code because it exceeds the allowable height that you guys have now in your ordinance. So this would fit into code and it wouldn’t be as high as the existing sign. Pastor: Okay, thank you. Henzi: In our packet it looks like Faith Lutheran obtained a variance to erect a fourteen foot ground sign in addition to a 31 square foot. It looks like--I can’t tell if the height was a condition. Lindman: The current sign is nine foot by--I’m sorry, it’s nine feet by five foot. Because we have a temporary sign on there right now four by eight and it did not cover it. Henzi: Yep, that’s 45. So it looks like they had a small one and had an additional-- Lindman: They also had another sign at one time for Building Block Preschool. So they had two signs on the property and perhaps that is what you are referring to there. Henzi: Okay. Lindman: And we have--again we operate as a church not a school. It’s just strictly Sunday use and then mid-week use for youth programs. Henzi: Is there anyone in the audience that wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the podium. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 16 March 24, 2015 Davidson: My name is Mary Ann Davidson. I’m not much of a speaker but I am a neighbor. I’ll just read to you what I-- Henzi: Can you say your address please? Davidson: Oh, 29660 Five Mile. And I have an objection to it. I strongly object to the Bell Creek Church replacing their original sign with an LD (sic) digital sign. It’s double sided too, I didn’t realize that. This church is in a residential zone with property seeing an increase in value. And I do believe putting up a commercial LD (sic) sign will not only be a demerit to the community but also will make the neighborhood less valuable. Not to mention a distraction to drivers using Five Mile Road. Now if it needs to be LD (sic) and they plan on possibly turning it off at night why be LD (sic) then? Because they are flashy at night for to be noticed. So I don’t approve of it. I object whole heartedly and I’m living literally two house away. Henzi: Thank you. Davidson: You’re welcome. Bowling: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Bowling. Bowling: Ma’am. Henzi: Wait, Mrs. Davidson. Davidson: Sorry. Bowling: Just a quick question for you. I just wondered since you live so close, how bright is the current sign that is there with the back lamination and the-- Davidson: Well its normal white so I don’t--I feel like it is no different than maybe somebody’s light on their house. But LD lighting--you’ve seen it. Bowling: So It doesn’t--the current sign doesn’t bother you much? Davidson: The current sign doesn’t bother me. Bowling: Okay, thank you. Davidson: You’re welcome. Is that it? Henzi: I think so, thank you. DeChane: Hi, my name is--is this close enough? Can you hear me all right? My name is Laura DeChane. I live 30048 Five Mile Road. And I am opposed. I object to the sign. I’m going to pass to you two pictures. This picture--these are taken right from my bedroom window and my side door. So the sign’s very--very visible and could and probably would illuminate my house. My concern is LED lights are very bright and they will shine in and they will disrupt--the first big concern I have is, is that it is right in my bedroom. It’s going to affect sleeping. My husband works 12 hour shifts so sleep is really important for us. Second, I think we have a really--really beautiful area even though it is on Five Mile and I think a bright lit flashing sign will deter from just the natural beauty that we have on Five Mile We are primarily a residential area and I think it will totally and completely City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 16 March 24, 2015 commercialize our area. We had a--let’s see--alternative means--I know they are talking about reaching and reaching to the community so my thing would be there are many alternate means to reach the youth and the community. Things like Facebook, social media, banners are also very good especially if they are going to be weekend only events. You pop up a banner then you take your banner down. You can put banners on both sides. We also have a community cable channel which I watch and I look for all the community events and other people--and the church could advertise that way. And you are talking about turning the sign off at night? Well, when your sign is off at night it is pretty dark in our area and if you don’t--you’re saying the other church has lights that go up like my other neighbor here said, it’s kind of white light. It’s a soft light so the current sign doesn’t affect us. And if you turn your lights off and your LED isn’t on, I’m sure you are going to put some sort of lights on to let the world know that you have a church here and you are looking to seek new members. So there is still going to be lights. And I think that is it. Any questions for me? Henzi: No, thank you. Egerer: Good evening. Henzi: Good evening. Egerer: Richard Egerer, 30060 Five Mile Road for the past 39 years. The church was there when I moved there. The sign that they had did a good job the whole time that I’ve been there and the church has been there. I don’t like the LED lights because of the different colors and the way that it shines. And as one of them said previously that’s sign- -they are surprised at how good there is working that people do notice. So I don’t think that they really have to advertise that much more. And I’m with the other residents here we are right on Five Mile and just a--you know like three doors down from that sign. I can--it is very visible from my house to the front of it. So that is just the reasons I’ve given for opposing that new sign. Any questions for me? Henzi: No, thank you. Martin: Christopher Martin, 12275 Inkster Road, Livonia, 48150. And I go to a lot of meetings and have over the years. So this is not unusual for some of you to see me here this evening. And although I don’t live in close proximity to the church, there are some things that I’m opposed to this sign. And here’s some of the reasons. No other church has one. And I think that is really important. I really heard no hardship this evening except a lack of membership and their ability to communicate with other people. And there’s other avenues for that. It’s not zoned C and that is very important. My business is zoned C-1 okay, and I had a difficult time with some of you--fencing. But in a district like that a business owner pays taxes. He pays taxes that go to support the City, police, fire, plowing of the streets, things like that. These people pay no taxes. And I think that’s really important because they shouldn’t be treated any different than a business owner that pays taxes. I guess that’s just about it. I think this would really open up the can of worms for every church to come in if this is approved and ask for the same thing. And so for that--and actually really hearing no hardship except the lack of communication to increase attendance, I’m going to ask that you reject this. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 16 March 24, 2015 Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? Calvin Davidson: My name is Calvin Davidson. I live at 29660 Five Mile Road, 48154. I object to sign like Joe was saying if he’s increased his traffic volume by say times three of 25,000 cars a day they are going to see the sign that he has there now without an LED. Because everybody looks for new things and sees new things they are going to come into this church and see what it is all about. Okay, if he wants--I’m sure they hand out flyers during church so they can hand it to their friends, tell their friends. He can put like a--like real estate does put a thing outside the door, put some flyers in it. We don’t need a sign in our neighborhood with LED especially a flashing one. That’s all I have. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? Egerer: Yeah, Richard Egerer again from 30060 Five Mile. One thing I forgot to mention was in real close proximity to me as a matter of fact on the west side two doors, the church is on the east to me, there is a funeral home. Now if the church is allowed to do this and the funeral home wanted to-- I mean--I don’t--it looks like you would almost have to give it to them you couldn’t really give it to one and not the other. And then I would have it on both sides of me where I live. Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? Can you read the letters please? Caramagno: We have approval letters from Vern Thomason, 15340 Oporto (letter read), and Donald Henderson, 15530 Oporto (letter read), and letters of objection from Richard Orlowski, 15491 Hidden Lane (letter read), Betty Grabowksi, 30036 Five Mile (letter read), Willie Bilak, 15430 Oporto (letter read), Richard Egerer, 30060 Five Mile (letter read), Feride and Thomas Roperti, 29765 Five Mile (letter read), Millicent Schrock, 29902 Five Mile (letter read), Richard Steenburg, 30015 Five Mile (letter read), and Brian Timpf, 29779 Five Mile (letter read). Coppola: Was that an objection or an approval? Henzi: Thank you. Pastor Lindman, you have the opportunity to make a closing statement. Lindman: If you look at the faith based community in Livonia and you recognize the challenges that we have. And you recognize that indeed the reason we bought Faith Lutheran Church is that it was down to about fifty members. There are a number of churches in Livonia in that similar situation. We purposely have gone out to minister to community to bring in people that are hurting. I recognize the concerns over technology but the fact of the matter is this sign will not be as bright. We’ve agreed that we can shut it off or turn it down at night. Again the current sign is going to be--or is brighter than that we are proposing. The other opportunity that we have as a church is we’ve taken a sixty year old building and we placed quite a bit of money into that building. We would like to make improvements. And as we make improvements, landscaping, bringing a sixty year old building up to code--not code but bringing it to the point where it’s valuable, we think we are going to increase the value of property in the neighborhood. And certainly we want a great relationship with the neighborhood. I understand the concern as soon as City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 16 March 24, 2015 you say LED. We are not looking for flash, we are looking simply to communicate and to take care of people that most of society doesn’t take care of. Henzi: Thank you. Caramagno: Mr. Chair, I’ve got a question. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Sir, how do you know a regular sign won’t suit your needs? How do you know that? Lindman: The opportunity to communicate message right now, social media, we have website, we do a lot of email, most of that gets lost as we know. We’re bombarded with those type messages. We don’t have the funds to do mailings, door hangers in the City of Livonia you can do them in some communities but they are disdainful. They largely end up in the trash. So it’s the opportunity to change the message out. Certainly if we are denied the request we are creative we will look for other opportunities. But the school system has shown that it is a very effective form of communication and certainly there are already regulations built in to how quickly the sign can change. So to answer your question, certainly if that opportunity isn’t afforded to us as some other people in the City have, we will have to be creative and try other things. Caramagno: My other question is in your offering of reduction of lighting and turning it off-- Lindman: Just the electronic--just the message portion of the sign. Caramagno: Yeah, I understand. You know, while that sounds like a nice offer, how would you expect the City to patrol something like that if it were to be allowed or afforded to you and the church? How would you expect the City to patrol something like throughout the City if this were to catch on? How would the City regulate-- Lindman: Well, I guess in the same fashion right now if a business puts out a banner. A lot of guys will put out a banner. Most businesses--many people don’t realize you have to go and get a variance for that or you have to pull a permit for that. And I could go out through the City right now and show you where some businesses have banners out that don’t belong. It was suggested that we put out a sign for a weekend event that something different. Well if I am going to follow the letter of the law that means it’s a $125.00 every time I want to put out a banner out from and for a two week limited time frame. So, to answer your question I think the challenge is already there for the City. You’re already doing it. Caramagno: Well, the reason I ask as you see these signs and there are different offerings of what you can cut and modify-- Lindman: Right. Caramagno: --it becomes impossible to manage. Lindman: But you’re already trying--you have to manage that right now as it is. Caramagno: This is a light issue, it gets worse. Anyhow that’s all the questions I have. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 16 March 24, 2015 Lindman: Okay. Sills: Mr. Chair, I have a question. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: How long--how long ago did you purchase this property? Lindman: We closed on the building in November of last year. We took possession th January 5. We took about nine weeks to remodel and make improvements. Our first nd Sunday was March 2. Sills: Did you realize what the--what the ordinances were when you bought the property? Lindman: Yes. Sills: You still realize that there aren’t any churches in Livonia with LED sign? Lindman: Yes, and again I think the opportunity there--I would encourage the City and the Council and this Board to recognize what is going on in the faith based community. Churches have been the backbone of Livonia and it is no longer the case. And we are an invaluable resource in that we are the very vehicle in which families hold together many times. And that’s really been the life blood of Livonia. Sills: We are a City of churches and none of them have the LED signs that you are proposing. Lindman: I know-- Sills: I find it very difficult to understand why you would purchase property in an area where you knew what the ordinances were, in a city where you knew what the churches provided and what kind of signs they had. I just don’t understand how you are thinking. You want to set a precedent? Do you want to rewrite the ordinances is that what you want to do? Lindman: I would--yeah, I would--I’d like other churches to have the same opportunity. And certainly I understand the process. We come here and if you turn it down we recognize that. In the same token I think there is an undue burden particularly on churches. Yes, we’re--all churches in Livonia are not commercial they are zoned by definition rural. So we are never in the opportunity--we’re never given the opportunity to be similar to a commercial property or school or the Wilson Barn. And we communicate very similar messages that we’d like to get out. So we took that understanding when we bought the building that you may not approve that and can accept that. Sills: Then I also heard you mention that you put a considerable amount of money into the building. Lindman: Correct. Sills: So what you did was make the building better but I don’t think you made the neighborhood any better. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 16 March 24, 2015 Lindman: Well, I would argue the last thing you want in Livonia is a near vacant church building that’s not being improved. Right now I think you can look at that building and say it’s vital, money has gone into it, improvements are being made. That is vital to the City. And as it was those improvements were not being made. Sills: Well according to all of the letters that we’ve got in tonight, we find that we have so many objective letters that I don’t believe what you are telling me is true. Lindman: Which part don’t you believe is true? Sills: I don’t believe what you are saying this is better for Livonia and this is better for the neighbors and so on. The neighbors don’t think so. Lindman: I recognize--I--there’s a difference here. There’s a concern over technology. When I say or the sign the people say it’s less bright than what we currently have, that’s something that we can quantify. I understand the concern when we say LED, immediately we think of commercial, we think of Vegas type. We are not interested in that type of a message center. Not at all. So I will say to you in putting money into a church building and improving the property is valuable to the City of Livonia. A church that is dying and sitting there is not valuable to the City of Livonia. Typically churches are one purpose properties and they don’t typically sell very well. And we want to be a vital member of the community. We have been for twelve years at Franklin in that community and we want to continue to be here. So, again I think one objection is that of the perception of LED, I understand that. But the other I certainly haven’t misrepresented anything. What we are proposing is real and is true. Sills: When I moved into Livonia in 1964, my neighborhood told me that they didn’t allow fences in the yards. Where I came from we always had a fence. But I didn’t try changing all the people who lived in my neighborhood I went along with it and said all right I won’t have a fence. So why couldn’t you do the same thing? Lindman: Sir, if you turn us down we certainly will. This is a process the City has put in place. If I want to go before you to ask for a variance that’s part of the process. So I am within--well within our right to ask for the variance. And certainly you are well within your right to turn us down. Sills: Thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: What is your hardship? We’ve heard a couple of people ask, quote or state in their letters what is the hardship. What is the hardship? Lindman: Well the hardship particularly for any church in Livonia is to be able to communicate our message in an effective low cost manner. We don’t have a commercial base. We don’t have commercial funds. We’re up against bombarded messages like everybody else. So in order to be able to communicate and to survive and to minister to needy people, we need to be able to communicate in a very cost effective way. And the LED, the technology, the fact that it can be changed remotely, gives us that opportunity. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 16 March 24, 2015 And keeps up improving our property, keeps us ministering to people. Now if we don’t get it will we go under? No, I’m not saying that. But I think with the school system, Wilson Barn, it’s been effective with them. We’d like the same opportunity. And I would certainly want to see other churches if they wanted that same opportunity. Pastor: I understand that. But if you listen to the opening statement, we are not supposed to take financing into consideration. Lindman: I do-- Pastor: That is what you are giving us. Lindman: Well, yes--well yes and no. We’re not in this for profit, we are in this for opportunity to build into people’s lives. And you can from the events that we have laid out there, they’re broad range of events. We want to put a youth basketball program together that is low cost. Not something--we have a gym. We have a youth mentoring program. The Cub Scouts have approached us. We don’t want to charge that--that takes communication. And the more we communicate a message the more opportunity we have to minister. It is not about money. But it is about effectiveness. So I recognize you are right, Mr. Pastor in that it is--speaking from one Pastor to another, it’s--it probably falls in between there, so I certainly see that. Pastor: Okay, thank you. Lindman: Yep. Henzi: Anything else? Lindman: I’m good. Henzi: Thank you very much. Lindman: Yep. Henzi: I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Schepis. Schepis: To me I think it is sort of a case of--you know--this type-- Unidentified Person: Can’t hear you. Unidentified Person: Can you speak up a little? Schepis: I’ m sorry. Unidentified Person: Thank you. Schepis: I’m sorry. I think it is a case of this type of lighting isn’t allowed in this type of zoning district. And at this point I think it is as simple as that for me. So I would not be in support of this. Henzi: Mr. Bowling. Bowling: I’d agree. At this case I think the Pastor made a good point that they are able to have garners a whole bunch of new parishioners just by virtue of having a sign being on Five Mile. I think it would be a bad precedent for us to set to allow it to happen in all City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 16 March 24, 2015 the other districts. It is residential and I think the objections are so overwhelming I don’t see a way where I could be in support. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Unfortunately, I believe that the church could use something like this. I just don’t see the support for it. And I actually believe the church could use this. I think they would benefit from this. But once again the neighborhood support is not there, I have a hard time supporting it only because of that. But I could offer possible a tabling motion to have the church talk to the neighbors maybe and sway them over one way or the other. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: The actual score if you will was fourteen to two between letters and speakers. Fourteen opposed and two in support, three in support I guess when you count the church. I’ve went against opposing views from the neighborhood before on different items, but not when almost every letter and opposition is either the neighbor on one side or the other or directly across the street. This is pretty--they made a pretty good case here. I think about the other churches in and around the town that come to mind right now. There’s many that are on major thoroughfares, Five Mile, Six Mile, Newburgh, so on and so forth. And there are many others in regular neighborhoods. I think this sign is going to be offensive to these people and I got to stand by their wishes. Where they are at I wouldn’t want it next to or across the street from me. And I choose where I live and things that surround me. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I agree with the comments of Mr. Caramagno. I feel the ordinance should be supported and I think the people that live in the neighborhood many--many years before your church came there should be considered. So I’ll be in denial of the proposal. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: Well, first of all I would like to extend my appreciation for your commitment to the community. Thanks for making a commitment to that site and improving it and such. That is great to see that. No one likes vacant buildings sitting around deteriorating. Thank you for that. However, in regards to your request it is really a slippery slope here. If we allow you to do this we set a precedence and then it’s going to be that much harder as other churches come in to turn them down too. And it really doesn’t fit into the neighborhood. I understand the challenge you have with communication and you will have to be creative and come up with ways to do that. And like it was said earlier, the lack of support of the neighbors just makes it that much harder for me to support something like this. If you truly believe that world has changed and this type of signage is more acceptable to the community, I suggest that you get together with the other churches and seek an amendment to the zoning and have it done that way. Henzi: I too will deny for three reasons and I’ll tell you why. First of all, there are no other churches that have one of these signs. In fact I sat on the Board when we denied the only other application by a church that I am aware of. It was St. Aidan’s which is on Farmington north of Six. And St. Aidan’s is bordered by doctor offices on one side and City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 16 March 24, 2015 another large church on the other. And so for one reason because I denied St. Aidan’s I have to deny this one in my opinion. Also, number two one of the reasons why I denied St. Aidan’s application was that this is not at an intersection. And I am generally not in favor of LED signs that are in the middle of road. I don’t like the one at Livonia Stevenson, I don’t like the one at Livonia Churchill. I don’t like any of them unless they are at an intersection because if you’re trying to catch somebody to tell them when church is or when Cub Scouts is they are going 45 miles an hour headed one way or the other and it is not a safe place to have it. Number three, like Mr. Coppola said, this is a legislative issue. And your argument is reasonable and very persuasive as to why you want it. There’s no doubt about it. You are to be applauded for you and the parishioners for what you have done. I am very mindful of the fact that that was a dying church and that this new church is injecting some life into it, improving it. There’s no doubt in my mind that this will improve the building and the neighborhood. I think it has already. You are right that we don’t want kids loitering around some empty building large like a church, there’s no doubt about that. I think the content that you present is good. I mean we’ve approved an LED sign at a McDonald’s under different rules but they are--they’re promoting Shamrock Shakes are available and you are delivering a much more--a message that I think your citizens are much more in favor of for example. Your argument is very similar in my opinion to a lot of the gas station owners who lobbied City Council a number of years ago and had a very similar argument. And that was it is very difficult, time consuming and labor intensive to change our pricing on our signs especially in the middle of winter. Every other community around has one, will you please allow it? And that worked. Most of the variance requests we get are for things along these lines. Somebody says I want to build a garage in excess of 720 feet or I want to build a garage that is not within ten feet of the line. And this Board looks at them and a lot of times says we’ll give that you because it’s a de minimis deficiency and there are also other examples that happen throughout the City. To me either you can have LED signs non-commercial or you can’t. It’s one or the other. And for me it’s a City Council issue. Now is this an issue that City Council should approach and say let’s get with the times and churches should have them, perhaps. But it’s not in my opinion for this Board to decide. So the floor is open for a motion. Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Upon Motion by Caramagno supported by Bowling, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2015-03-09: Bell Creek Community Church, 30000 5 Mile Road, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a ground sign which includes a portion that shall contain an electronic message board, which is not allowed in this zoning district. Electronic message board/signs are allowed in commercial districts only. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 16 March 24, 2015 The property is located on the north side of Five Mile Road (30000), between Oporto and Hidden Lane, Lot. No. 056-99-0003-003, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H,(o),5, “Sign Regulations in C- be denied for the following reasons and finding of fact: 1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts,” 1. The petitioner has not demonstrated a practical difficulty. 2. There was strong opposition from the neighboring homeowners. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Caramagno, Bowling, Sills, Schepis, Coppola, Henzi NAYS: Pastor ABSENT: None Henzi: The variance was denied. Thank you very much for your time. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 16 March 24, 2015 Fisher: Are we supposed to vote on minutes? thth Henzi: January 6 and February 7. Is there a motion to approve? Pastor: I make a motion to approve. Henzi: Is there support? Schepis: Support. Henzi: All in favor say aye. Board Members: Aye. Pastor: I make a motion to adjourn. Bowling: Support. Henzi: All in favor say aye. Board Members: Aye. Henzi: We’re adjourned. There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned at 7:55 p.m. _______________________________ Matt Henzi, Chairman ______________________________ Sam Caramagno, Secretary /pcb City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 16 March 24, 2015