HomeMy WebLinkAboutPLANNING MINUTES 2006-12-12MINUTES OF THE 936° REGULAR MEETING
HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA
On Tuesday, December 12, 2006, the City Planning Commission of the City of
Livonia held its 936" Regular Meeting in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center
Drive, Livonia, Michigan.
Mr. John Walsh, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
Members present: William LaPine Deborah McDermott R. Lee Morrow
Carol A. Smiley John Walsh Ian Wilshaw
Members absent: H. G. Shane
Mssrs. Mark Taormina, Planning Director; At Nowak, Planner IV; and Scott Miller,
Planner III, were also present.
Chairman Walsh informed the audience that if a petition on tonighfs agenda
involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the
City Council who, in tum, will hold its own public hearing and make the final
delerminafion as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning
Commission hokls the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or
vacating pefifion. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City
Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If
a petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the
petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City
Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become
effective seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission
and the professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their filing.
The staff has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying
resolutions, which the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the
outcome of the proceedings tonight.
ITEM #1 PETITION 2006 4 1-08-2 0 ABC APPLIANCE
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Pefifion 2006-11-
08-20 submitted by ABC Appliance requesting approval of all
plans required by Section 18.47 of the Zoning Ordinance in
connection with a proposal to renovate the exterior of a portion
of the commercial shopping center (Woodland Square) located
on the north side of Plymouth Road between Middlebelt Road
and Sears Drive in the Southeast % of Section 26.
December 12, 2006
23735
Mr. Miller: The petitioner is requesting approval to renovate the exterior of
a portion of the Woodland Square Shopping Center. This
center is located on the north side of Plymouth Road between
Middlebelt Road and Sears Drive. Sports Authority was the
most recent occupant of the subject unit. The entire shopping
center property is a total of 8.84 acres in size, with 446 feel of
frontage along Plymouth Road by 841 feel of depth. To the
north of the properly is the Tech Center Industnal Park. Next
door to the west is a Shurgard self-storage yard. To the east,
across Tech Center Drive, is a commercial center that is
occupied by Big Lots and the former Media Play. Directly to the
south across Plymouth Road is the Wonderland Mall
development. Woodland Square is a large L-shape shopping
center with some storefronts facing Plymouth Road and others
facing Tech Center Drive. The majority of customer parking is
located within the confine area between the center and
Plymouth Road. The site plan shows that the center is
approximately 31,000 square feet in size and is divided into
around twelve (12) units. ABC Appliance would be occupying
the largest tenant space of the center and would therefore be
tatting on the recognition as the anchor store. This section of
the center sits some 600 feel back from the Plymouth Road
nghl-0iway line and faces the roadway. The main remodeling
of the unit would lake place on the front or south elevation.
Scored block and E.I.F.S. columns would support the entrance
overhang. The multi-layered overhang would be adorned in
E.I.F.S. The lop edge of the roofline would be capped with a
metal coping. Wide ebbed metal panels would make up the
roofing material. Along the east elevation of the unit, near the
northeast corner, new truck wells would be constructed. A new
trash compactor would be installed next to the new truck wells.
That is the extent of the proposal.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence for our consideration?
Mr. Taormina: There are three items of correspondence. The first item is from
the Engineering Division, dated November 21, 2006, which
reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the Engineering
Division has reviewed the above-referenced petition. We have
no objections to the proposal at this time. No additional right-of-
way is required. The three parking spaces opposite the truck
well should be marked as a no parking area to provide
additional space for maneuvering into the truck dock." The
letter is signed by Robert J. Schron, P.E., City Engineer. The
second letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated
November 17, 2006, which reads as follows: "This office has
reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request to
renovate the exterior of one of the units of the shopping center
December 12, 2006
23736
(Woodland Square) on property located at the above -referenced
address. We have no objections to this proposal." The letter is
signed by Andrew C. Walker, Fire Marshal. The third letter is
from the Inspection Department, dated December 4, 2006,
which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request of November
15, 2006, the above -referenced petition has been reviewed.
The following is noted. (1) The parking areas need resealing,
double striping and some repair. This Department has no
further objections to this petition." The letter is signed by Alex
Bishop, Assistant Director of Inspection. That is the extent of
the correspondence.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any questions from the Commissioners for the staff?
Mr. La Pine: Mr. Taormina, in my inspection of this site, next door to the east,
there used to be billiard parlor. Are they still in operation?
Mr. Taormina:
No, I believe they have closed their operations.
Mr. LaPine:
That's what I thought. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Is the petitioner here this evening? If you could please step
forward to the microphone.
James M. Swiatko, P.E., The Design & Construction Group, Inc., 330 E. Maple
Road, Suite B, Troy, Michigan 48083. Good evening.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there anything you'd like to add to the presentation thus far?
Mr. Swialko:
No. Mr. Miller did an excellent presentation explaining
everything that we would like to do at this site. I am the
designer/builder for ABC Appliance, and my client is absolutely
thrilled to be on this comer with the redevelopment going on
across the street as well. It will be a great redevelopment area
of the city as well as ABC. They are moving and upgrading their
present facility. They are located at Joy and Inkster in Redford,
and with the addition of this space, it would roughly double the
size of that store. So it's a great opportunity for everyone
involved.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any questions for the petitioner?
Ms. Smiley:
I have one question. Is this typically what an ABC Appliance
looks like?
Mr. Swialko:
Yes. That is the standard storefront bok that we're going for
these days.
Mr. La Pine: The truck well, now, will that be dug down deep and its going to
go right inside the building. Is that the way it's going lobe?
Mr. Swiatko: It will be dug down deep and the truck well terminates at the
wall ofthe building.
Mr. La Pine: And I dont believe you have any problem. When I looked at the
plan and was out there, I thought it would be pretty tight for a
semi backing in there. So those three parking spaces that have
to be removed, you have no problem with that?
Mr. Swiatko: There are some parking spaces that are in the middle of that
area, and they are striped today. Those parking places will go
away. When we did the parking calculations and computations,
we did not take those parking places in the middle into
consideration. So there is ample parking for the shopping
center and ABC Appliance without those being there. I perceive
the spots along Tech Center Drive to the east to remain and be
viable parking places.
December 12, 2006
23737
Ms.
Smiley:
Okay. And do you know if they own it or if they're going to be
leasing that building?
Mr.
Swiatko :
This is a lease situation.
Ms.
Smiley:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr.
Morrow:
Yes, Mr. Swiatko, the Inspection Department indicated there
was some work to be done in the parking lot relating to sealing
and patching and striping. Would ABC be responsible for that
or the landlord?
Mr.
Swiatko:
Actually, that would be the landlord's responsibility for the
parking lot
Mr.
Morrow:
And he's aware thalwill be a requirement?
Mr.
Swiatko:
Yes, he is.
Mr.
Morrow:
So he has approved ...
Mr.
Swiatko:
And he doesn't have a problem with that.
Mr.
Morrow:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr.
Swiatko:
Sure.
Mr. La Pine: The truck well, now, will that be dug down deep and its going to
go right inside the building. Is that the way it's going lobe?
Mr. Swiatko: It will be dug down deep and the truck well terminates at the
wall ofthe building.
Mr. La Pine: And I dont believe you have any problem. When I looked at the
plan and was out there, I thought it would be pretty tight for a
semi backing in there. So those three parking spaces that have
to be removed, you have no problem with that?
Mr. Swiatko: There are some parking spaces that are in the middle of that
area, and they are striped today. Those parking places will go
away. When we did the parking calculations and computations,
we did not take those parking places in the middle into
consideration. So there is ample parking for the shopping
center and ABC Appliance without those being there. I perceive
the spots along Tech Center Drive to the east to remain and be
viable parking places.
December 12, 2006
23738
Mr. La Pine:
One other question for you, Mark. I notice there's a lot of 18
foot spots. Because they're on the outer edge and we have the
overhang, that makes them less than 20 feet. Is that correct?
Mr. Taormina:
Where those spaces don't conflict with any pedestrian
walkways, they're fine at 18 feet.
Mr. La Pine:
The other question I have, all the signage, does that all meet the
requirements of the ordinance?
Mr. Taormina:
As submitted, I believe it fully complies with the ordinance.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Is this facility is going to replace the ABC Warehouse that's in
Redford?
Mr. Swiatko:
That's correct, sir.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Looking at the one that's in Redford right now, there's quite a bit
of activity usually in the front of the store, people loading and
unloading appliances that they purchased, that they are going to
lake home with them at hal time. Is there a specific loading
area provided or would they just go out the front of the store at
this new facility?
Mr. Swiatko:
They would continue to go out the front of the store at this
facility as well. The traffic pattern at this facility does allow that
to happen with the new storefront.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. And then how about people who may purchase car
stereo equipment? How are they going to have their equipment
installed?
Mr. Swiatko:
At the rear of the building or on the north side of the building
facing the alleyway, if you will, that one elevation of the facility
shows a rollup garage door back there. That will be where the
car stereo installation area exists.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. So they will drive around the back and pull into that
area?
Mr. Swiatko:
That's correct.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Now I look a look at your facility in Novi, which was the
old Scott Schuplrine building.
Mr. Swiatko:
Yes.
December 12, 2006
23739
Mr. Wilshaw:
Is that essenlially the color and the basic look of the front? Is
that consistent with this store, other than the fad that ft's on an
angle?
Mr. Swiatko:
The reds and the whites and the gray, that's correct. It would be
the same color scheme. That's correct.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Very good. Thank you.
Mr. LaPine:
He brought this up. I just dont like the idea of people loading
and unloading in front of the building with all the traffic we have
in this shopping center. I notice in the back of the building, you
do have some overhead doors. One you just said was going to
be used for the stereos. Is there anyway they can drive around
the back of the building and load in the back instead of loading
in the front of the building?
Mr. Swiatko:
I can't fully speak for the future, but in my 10 years of doing
business with ABC Appliance, the loading and unloading, or the
loading of appliances has always been through the front doors
of the building. We could designate a spot. It would be to the
east, in this case, of the front doors as a loading zone for people
to slop and put things in their vehicles.
Mr. LaPine:
Maybe that would be helpful. I just don't like with the traffic
running in front of the store, people out there with doors open
and loading items in or even returning them. I don't know what
all they do, but it just doesn't seem that's a very good way to
handle it, personally. If you could do that and give us an area
so people can drive in.
Mr. Swiatko:
We can certainly create a loading zone to the east of the front
doors.
Mr. LaPine:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak for or
against this pefition? Seeing nobody coming forward, a motion
would be in order.
On a motion by
LaPine, seconded by Morrow, and unanimously adopted, it was
#12-127-2006
RESOLVED, that the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Petition 2006-11-08-20
submitted by ABC Appliance requesting approval
of all plans
required by Section 18.47 of the Zoning
Ordinance in
connection with a proposal to renovate the exterior of a portion
of the commercial shopping center (Woodland Square) located
December 12, 2006
23740
on the north side of Plymouth Road between Middlebell Road
and Sears Drive in the Southeast'''/ of Section 26, be approved
subject to the following conditions:
1. Thatthe Site Plan marked CE -1 dated November 14, 2006,
as revised, prepared by The Design & Construction Group,
is hereby approved and shall be adhered to;
2. That the Exterior Building Elevation Plan marked A-2 dated
November 14, 2006, as revised, prepared by The Design &
Construction Group, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to;
3. That all rooftop mechanical equipment shall be concealed
from public view on all sides by screening that shall be of a
compatible character, material and color to other exterior
materials on the building;
4. That the petitioner shall correct to the Engineenng
Department's satisfaction the item(s) outlined in the
correspondence dated November 21, 2006;
5. That the petitioner shall correct to the Inspection
Department's satisfaction the item(s) outlined in the
correspondence dated December 4, 2006;
6. That only conforming signage is approved with this petition,
and any additional signage shall be separately submitted
for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals;
7. That no LED lighlband or exposed neon shall be permitted
on this site including, but not limited to, the building or
around the windows;
8. That the specific plans referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time the building permits are applied for; and,
9. Pursuant to Section 19.10 of Ordinance #543, the Zoning
Ordinance of the City of Livonia, this approval is valid for a
period of one year only from the date of approval by City
Council, and unless a building permit is obtained and
construction has commenced, this approval shall be null
and void at the expiration of said period.
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approNng
resolution.
December 12, 2006
23741
ITEM#2 PETlTION2005-08-0845 SCHOSTAK BROS.
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2005-
08-08-15 submitted by Schoslak Brothers & Company
requesting to modify the previously approved plans in
connection with the construction of multi -tenant commercial
buildings on the former Wonderland Mall properly located on the
south side of Plymouth Road between Middlebell Road and
Milburn Avenue in the Northeast % of Section 35.
Mr. Taormina: This petition involves a revision to the Site Plan that was
approved on November 30, 2005, in connection with the
redevelopment of that portion of Wonderland Mall which is
known as The Village Shops of Wonderland. Under the original
plan, the area covered was approximately 12.94 acres of the
total 60 acres site that made up Wonderland Mall. This is the
area that is located along Plymouth Road in front of the three
major big box stores, two of which are under construction, Wal-
Mart and Target. The original plan showed 6 buildings totaling
98,284 square feel. Associated with those 6 buildings was 612
parking spaces, with a deficiency of 17 parking spaces. Under
the revised plan submitted this evening, there will be 5 buildings
that will total 91,971 square feel on 13.38 acres with 689
parking spaces. So there would be a net reduction in the overall
building size of about 6,300 square feel, and there would be an
increase of 77 parking spaces, bringing that matter into
conformance with the ordinance. The changes mostly involve
the location and arrangement of the retail buildings that are
located in the northeast corner of the site. The original design
showed three buildings, Buildings C, D, and E, which totaled
43,337 square feet. However, the revised plan shows two
buildings, with Retail C and D combined to form a single L-
shaped building, and Retail E, which would be a similar size
building as originally proposed. The total building area under
the revised plan is 37,024 square feel. Another change involves
an increase in the building setback from Plymouth Road. The
original design showed a setback of approximately 85 feet from
the right-of-way of Plymouth Road, and the new setback is 145
feet. So this pushes the buildings back, and the difference
allows for an additional drive aisle, as well as two rows of
parking in front of the buildings. These changes will lay the
groundwork for future proposals involving a Chili's restaurant,
which will be located at the west end of Retail E, and a Beaner's
Coffee with a customer drive -up window, which will be located
at the south end of Retail D. Retail D would be one story in
height and total 21,500 square feel. Retail E also would be one
story in height and total 9,482 square feet for the general retail
December 12, 2006
23742
area. An additional 6,000 square feet would be developed as
the pad for the proposed Chili's restaurant. A more detailed
plan, including the site, landscaping and floor plans, as well as
buildings elevations, would have to be submitted to the City
Planning Commission and Council before approval is granted
for either of the two restaurants. The landscaping is consistent
with the previously approved plans and in terms of the
architecture of these buildings, the elevation plans that were
submitted show continuity in the design. This would be
accomplished through common exterior building materials,
window treatments, height, colors, etc. So although there are
some modifications being made to the elevations of these
buildings, it would be in strict adherence to the design criteria
that was established as part of the original approvals. Thank
you.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Miller: There are three items of correspondence. The first item is from
the Engineering Division, dated November 30, 2006, which
reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the Engineering
Division has reviewed the above-refsrenced petition. We have
no objection to the proposal at this time. No additional right -0f -
way is required and the legal description is correct. The
detention facilities will require the approval of Wayne County
and work within Plymouth Road will require the approval of the
Michigan Department of Transportation. Each building must be
served by separate water services." The letter is signed by
Robert J. Schron, P.E., City Engineer. The second letter is from
the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated November 17, 2006,
which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan
submitted in connection with a request to modify the previously
approved plans in connection with the construction of
commercial buildings on the former Wonderland Mall site
located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middlebeft
Road and Milburn Avenue in the northeast X of Section 35. We
have no objections to this proposal with the following
stipulations: (1) Zone sprink/ered buildings to provide address
specific water flow notification. (2) If subject building(s) are to
be provided with an automatic sprinkler system, an onsite
hydrant shall be located between 50 feet and 100 feet from the
Fire Department connection. (3) Adequate hydrants shall be
provided and located with spacing consistent with the use
group. (4) Hydrant spacing shall be consistent with City of
Livonia Ordinances. (5) Access around building shall be
provided for emergency vehicles with a minimum vertical
clearance of thirteen feet six inches, a turning radius of fifty-
three feet wall-to-wall and an inside turning radius of twenty-
December 12, 2006
23743
nine feet six inches. (6) Any curves or comer of streets shall
accommodate emergency vehicles with a turning radius of fifty-
three feet wall-to-wall and an inside turning radius of twenty-
nine feet six inches. (7) Fire lanes shall be not less than 20 feet
of unobstructed width, able to withstand live loads of fire
apparatus, and have a minimum of 13 feet 6 inches of vertical
clearance. (8) Fire lanes shall be marked with freestanding
signs that have the words FIRE LANE — NO PARKING painted
in contrasting colors (on both sides) at a size and spacing
approved by the authority having jurisdiction." The letter is
signed by Andrew C. Walker, Fire Marshal. The third letter is
from the Inspection Department, dated December 4, 2006,
which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request of November
14, 2006, the above -referenced petition has been reviewed.
This Department has no further objections to this petition." The
letter is signed by Alex Bishop, Assistant Director of Inspection.
That is the extent of the correspondence.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any questions from the Commissioners for the staff?
Mr. Wilshaw:
I just have one quick question for Mark. The material that is in
the roadway between the two buildings that extends up to
Plymouth Road, is that a brick paver -type of material?
Mr. Taormina:
Its stamped concrete. It has the appearance of a brick paver,
but it's stamped concrete.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay, very good. Thank you.
Mr. LaPine:
Mark, if you would put up the plan again, please. I have a
couple questions. My first question is, on the L-shaped building
that faces Middlebelt, the parking will be to the east there.
Where will the openings for the buildings be? Right on the west
side?
Mr. Taormina:
If I understand your question, Mr. LaPine, you're wondering
where the storefronts would be?
Mr. LaPine:
Right.
Mr. Taormina:
They would be along the east side of Retail D facing Middlebell
Road. So patrons could park here and then access the various
stores along the east side of the building.
Mr. La Pine
That was one of my concems. I didn't know if they had to walk
around and go in on the west side there. The second question I
have is, before I think we were set back from Plymouth Road 60
December 12, 2006
23744
feel. Now you moved the building back. How far back are we
now?
Mr. Taormina:
The original setback was approximately 85 feet and had a single
drive aisle with two rows of parking. The change shows a
setback of 145 feel from Plymouth Road, and as you can see
from this plan, there would be two drive aisles with four rows of
parking provided.
Mr. LaPine:
All right. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Is the petitioner here this evening?
William R. Cole, Schostak Brothers & Company, Inc., 17672 Laurel Park Drive
North, Suite 400E, Livonia, Michigan 48152.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there anything you'd like to add?
Mr. Cote:
No, I think Mr. Taormina did a nice job presenting this.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any questions from the Commissioners?
Mr. Wilshaw:
Could you give me a brief synopsis of what the rationale was for
making this change?
Mr. Cole:
Its driven by the retail tenants. Since our approval in 2005, I've
done a lot of marketing, and as you can see, Chili's played into
this. That's driven a lot of feedback from perspective tenants,
and with Chili's came the Beaners Coffee at the drive-thru area.
It kind of fostered a lot of feedback relative to the shape of the
building and the depth of the building and also the parking in
front. This Chili's situation has caused a lot to happen, and with
that, it's turned into a very interesting area for restaurants. We
have other leases signed, or about to be signed, but we're
asked not to disclose at this point by the tenants until theyre
ready to announce it. But with that, we've combined the two
buildings, created a better area to lease in this specific area,
instead of the smaller tenant space. So with that, we made that
change on the corner. It's driven by the marketplace.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Do you think that the fact that this building setback has
changed from Plymouth Road makes the other buildings that
are on this site look any better or worse?
Mr. Cole:
Not really. We have very strong interest in Building E which is
the other side of ... right in here.... that's J. In J we've got
some activity with two tenants right now on that. This will be a
little more retail of shops. I think both these buildings and
December 12, 2006
23745
probably part of this building and the restaurant will be down
more in this comer.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. So in a sense you're creating districts within the property,
restaurant district, shopping district, that type of thing?
Mr. Cote:
I think a lot of it has to be with the access parking. I think this
corner is important for restaurants, more so than retail.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. When I first looked at this I was a little concerned by the
building getting moved back, looking a little awkward, but then
the fact that its right on the corner of Plymouth and Middlebett,
certainly having the setback of the building does create better
visibility for traffic in that area, which I think is probably not a
bad idea.
Mr. Cole:
Itdoes.
Mr. Wilshaw:
So I do like that.
Mr. Cote:
I agree with you.
Mr.Wilshaw:
Thank you.
Mr. LaPine:
My concern is due to the fact that the building sets back farther
now with Chili's and so forth, the buildings to the west of that are
siting out in front of them by about what, 20 - 30 feel? Won't
that block Chili's view for people coming from the west going
east on Plymouth Road?
Mr. Cole:
This pond is about three-quarters of an acre, to give an idea of
size. There's quite a distance between these two. It will be
easy to see for this part. If they were closer, I think it would be a
problem, if there were right next to each other. But that open
area with the pond gives a lot of visibility.
Mr. LaPine:
But the pond is going to be landscaped with trees, if I remember
right. And there's a fountain in there. I mean I'm only thinking
from Chili's point of view. If they were down in the other corner
closer to Middlebelt, it might make more sense, but you're the
guys that are the experts. I was just curious. That's all.
Mr. Cote:
Chili's was very interested. That's the spot they chose.
Mr. LaPine:
They chose it?
Mr. Cole:
Yes. We're very excited because it's a national company.
There's a lot of market study and a lot of research we put into it.
December 12, 2006
23746
So we're real thrilled to have them come onboard. We signed a
lease with them and theyll be submitting right behind us with
the waiver use. They've already made their submittal, I believe.
Mr. LaPine:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak for or
against this petition?
Raymond De Perro, 29361 Elmira. For those of you who are not familiar, Elmira
is the first street south of Plymouth Road on the east side of
Middlebell, right across the street. Two questions. Does
anybody know what the hours of operation are going to be for
Chili's?
Mr. Walsh:
We can check. We'll have the petitioner come back up and
answer questions.
Mr. DePerto:
Okay. And also, I'm a little concerned about the traffic. Now
there's a blinking light on Omngelawn that hasn't been working
for whatever reason. I'm not sure the reason why. But if you're
coming south on Middlebell Road and you gel past Middlebell
Road, trying to turn into that subdivision ... I mean we have
acccidenls there constantly. Now you're building this up.
They're not using that light on Orangelawn. It is a blinking light
which probably should be, you know, it should be a timed light
like the light on Middlebell Road and Plymouth Road, and I'm a
little concerned about the traffic and what that's going to do to . .
. you know, the traffic . people trying to get into the
subdivision to gel home during rush hour.
Mr. Walsh:
Mr. Taormina, am I correct, Wayne County is taking a look at
lights?
Mr. Taormina:
They are studying the signalization. both along Middlebelt Road
and Plymouth Road, as we speak. So there are some changes
proposed, but again, those are all under study right now by
Wayne County and the Michigan Department of Transportation.
Mr. Walsh:
Okay. So they are being studied by Wayne County and the
Slate which have the purview over the lighting, the traffic lights.
Mr. Taormina:
Wayne County has authonty over Middlebell Road, and the
Slate has the authonty over Plymouth Road.
Mr. Walsh:
Okay. But they're both understudy?
Mr. Taormina:
Correct.
December 12, 2006
23747
Mr. Walsh:
By those institutions.
Mr. Taormina:
That is correct.
Mr. DePer0:
Okay. Somebody just whispered into my ear that the light is
gone now. I didn't notice that. The light on Orangelawn and
Middlebell Road is gone.
Mr. Walsh:
I don't know that to be true or false. Mark, do you know by
chance?
Mr. Taormina:
I know that they were adjusting the signal for a while, and I was
not aware that they had actually removed that signal. I do know
that the signal just north of that will be relocated further to the
north, and their analysis at this point is showing that there
should be sufficient gaps to provide for the turning movements
at Omngelawn. But that is something that you would have to
discuss with the County.
Mr. DePerro;
Okay. Thank you.
Mike Pavlichek,
9403 Lamont. Two questions that I have, these buildings are
supposed to be pedestrian friendly with a small town
atmosphere. The way the redesign is with the parking on the
Plymouth Road side, it looks like there's no way for the people
to gel around to the other sections. And also, it looks like
there's parking in between the buildings, and I couldn't tell how
cars were to get in there other than running over the pedestrians
trying to get between the two.
Mr. Walsh:
What I would like to do, if we can hold there for a minute. Mr.
Cote, if I can just have you come back up and address two
quick things, and then I'll continue on with the public hearing.
Can you address the hours of operation for Chili's, and then if
you can help address this man's traffic question.
Mr. Cote:
Yes, first of all, I don't know what the hours will be for Chili's.
They will be presenting that with their waiver use submittal.
Mr. Walsh:
Okay. And on traffic patterns in terms ofdriving in between?
Mr. Cote:
I'm not quite sure I understand the question.
Mr. Walsh:
Sir, could you re -stale your question for us, please?
Mr. Pavlichek:
How do the cars gel into the parking area between D and E ...
yes, right in there?
December 12, 2006
23748
Mr. Cote:
Oh, okay. There's parking back in here. There's a drive-thru
here and back out this way, and this is also a drive. These
areas that you see are stamped concrete, decorative stamped
concrete. The rest is asphalt paving. So the cars could drive
through here down this aisle, and they could also drive back
through here to this parking, and also back onto this aisle, like
so. It's hard to see with the yellow landscaping on it.
Mr. Pavlichek:
Okay, so as I understand it, the south side of the building there
is basically all the backs of the buildings?
Mr. Cole:
The service area is in the back.
Mr. Pavlichek:
Its all service.
Mr. Cole:
Its service there and service back here.
Mr. Pavlichek:
And the people would be walking along the side of the building
through that parking area to the fronts?
Mr. Cole:
They could park here and they could go onto this sidewalk.
They could cross over to this sidewalk or go down to the front of
the buildings and cross these two ends of the parking areas
right here.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you, Mr. Cole.
Mr. Walsh:
Sir, is there anything else?
Mr. Pavlichek:
Just concerned with people walking all the way through parking
areas and across driveways between the buildings.
Mr. Walsh:
Okay. Thank you. Is there anyone else in the audience wishing
to speak? Seeing no one coming forward, a motion would be in
order.
On a motion by
Morrow, seconded by Smiley, and unanimously adopted, it was
#12-128-2006
RESOLVED, that the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Petition 2005-08-08-15
submitted by Schostak Brothers & Company requesting to
modify plans, which previously received approval by the City
Council on November 30, 2005 (Council Resolution 563-05), in
connection with the construction of multi -tenant commercial
buildings on the former Wonderland Mall property located on the
south side of Plymouth Road between Middlebelt Road and
December 12, 2006
23749
Milburn Avenue in the Northeast % of Section 35, be approved
subject to the following conditions:
1. That the Overall Site Plan marked Sheet Gi dated November
10, 2006, as revised, prepared by Hubbell, Roth 8 Clark
Consulting Engineers, is hereby approved and shall be adhered
to;
2. That the Enlarged Site Plan East marked Sheet C-11 dated
November 10, 2006, as revised, prepared by Hubbell, Roth 8
Clark Consulting Engineers, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to;
3. That all regular parking spaces and drive aisles shall conform to
the Zoning Ordinance;
4. That the Landscape Plan marked Sheet L-5 dated November
10, 2006, as revised, prepared by Hubbell, Roth 8 Clark
Consulting Engineers, is hereby approved and shall be adhered
to;
5. That the Landscape Plan marked Sheet L-3 dated November
10, 2006, as revised, prepared by Hubbell, Roth 8 Clark
Consulting Engineers, is hereby approved and shall be adhered
to;
6. That the height of the planted trees shall be measured from the
top of the root ball to the mid -point of the top leader;
7. That all disturbed lawn areas shall be sodded in lieu of
hydroseeding;
8. That underground sprinklers are to be provided for all
landscaped and sodded areas, and all planted materials
shall be installed to the satisfaction of the Inspection
Department and thereafter permanently maintained in a
healthy condition;
9. That the Exterior Building Elevation Plans marked Sheets A4.1 D
and A2.1E, both dated November 13, 2006, prepared by
Schostak Brothers 8 Company, are hereby approved and shall
be adhered to;
10. That the brick used in the construction shall be full face 4 inch
brick or a precast masonry unit system with cast -in-place brick
and shall meet ASTM C216 standards;
11. That all rooftop mechanical equipment shall be concealed from
public view on all sides by screening that shall be of a
compatible character, material and color to other exterior
materials on the building;
December 12, 2006
23750
12. That the three walls of the trash dumpster area shall be
constructed out of the same back used in the construction of the
building, or in the event a poured wall is substituted, the wall's
design, texture and color shall match that of the building and the
enclosure gates shall be of steel construction and maintained
and when not in use dosed at all times;
13. That the petitioner shall secure the necessary permits, including
storm water management permits, wetlands permits and soil
erosion and sedimentation control permits, from Wayne County,
the City of Livonia, and/or the State of Michigan Department of
Environmental Quality;
14. That the Developer shall submit for approval an ongoing
mosquito control program, as approved by the Department of
Public Works describing maintenance operations and larvicide
applications to the City of Livonia Inspection Department prior to
the construction of the stormwater retention facility;
15. That the owner shall provide annual reports to the Inspection
Department on the maintenance and larvicide treatments
completed on the stormwater detention pond;
16. That all light fixtures shall not exceed twenty (20') feel in
height and shall be aimed and shielded so as to minimize
stray light trespassing across property lines and glaring
into adjacent roadway;
17. That the petitioner shall correct to the Fire Department's
satisfaction the item(s) outlined in the correspondence
dated November 17, 2006;
18. That the petitioner shall correct to the Engineenng
Department's satisfaction the item(s) outlined in the
correspondence dated November 30, 2006;
19. That only conforming signage is approved with this pefition,
and any addifional signage shall be separately submitted
for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals;
20. That a Master Sign Plan establishing ground signage for
the entire "The Village Shops of Wonderland' development
shall be separately submitted for review and approval by
the Planning Commission and City Council. Included in the
application shall be the locafion and graphics of each
Business Center Sign, all Idenlifcafion Signs and any
directional signage;
December 12, 2006
23751
21. That no LED lighlband or exposed neon shall be permitted
on this site including, but not limited to, the building or
around the windows;
22. That the specific plans referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time the building permits are applied for;
23. That all other conditions imposed by Council Resolution
#563-05, which granted approval for the construction of
multi -tenant commercial buildings on the former
Wonderland Mall property, shall remain in effect to the
extent that they are not in conflict with the foregoing
conditions; and,
24. Pursuant to Section 19.10 of Ordinance #543, the Zoning
Ordinance of the City of Livonia, this approval is valid for a
period of one year only from the date of approval by City
Council, and unless a building permit is obtained and
construction has commenced, this approval shall be null
and void allhe expiration ofsaid period.
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
ITEM#3 PETITION 200640-0849 WEST BAY EXPLORATION
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2006-
10-08-19 submitted by West Bay Exploration Company
requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.52 of the
Zoning Ordinance in connection with a proposal to drill oil and
gas exploration wells on property located at 39900 Seven Mile
Road in the Southwest''/. of Section 6.
Mr. Taormina: This is a request by West Bay Exploration Company to drill and
operate two oil and gas wells on property that's located east of
Haggerty Road and adjacent to the 4275 Expressway between
Seven and Eight Mile Roads. The address of the property is
39900 Seven Mile Road. This property is located immediately
north of the Costco Warehouse, which is property zoned G2,
General Business. Immediately to the south of the property is
the former Technicolor facility, and to the south and west of that
is the Pentagon Entertainment Center, also zoned C-2, General
Business. That is the site of the AMC Theater. Located
immediately to the west is the Haggerty Road Technical Center,
December 12, 2006
23752
which is zoned ISE, Research Engineering. The subject parcel
is zoned PO, Professional Office. Access is available via Fox
Drive, which is a 66 fool wide private road easement that
connects to Haggerty Road and extends in an east to west
direction along the north end of the Pentagon Entertainment
Center, just north of the AMC Theater. Fox Drive also provides
secondary access to the former Technicolor facility. The size of
the properly is about 10.94 acres. Its currently undeveloped.
Its covered mostly with trees, shrubs, and other natural
vegetation. Municipal review of this petition is governed under
Section 18.52 of the Zoning Ordinance, which general provides
that no oil well or natural gas well shall be drilled, established or
maintained without recommendation of the City Planning
Commission and approval of the City Council. The above
provision is a part of Article XVIII, Supplementary Regulations,
which apply to all zoning districts within the City of Livonia,
except where otherwise expressly staled in this ordinance. The
construction of the facility would take place in two phases.
Phase 1 would consist of the well -drilling operation and that
would take approximately two weeks per well to complete. It
involves the initial setup, the clearing and the rough grading, as
well as the installation of soil erosion control measures, the
construction of drilling pads, perimeter dikes and secondary
containment facilities. After Phase 1 is completed, the well
heads are tested and secured. The drilling rigs that would come
onto the site would be approximately 102 feel in height. They
would ran 24 hours a day for the 12 -day period for each well
head. Phase 2 would be the completion of the development,
and that would take approximately one additional month to
complete depending on weather, and would involve the
construction and installation of all equipment necessary for the
processing, containment and transport of the oil and gas, as
well as the final grading and landscaping. This is an oblique
rendering of the proposed compound. It includes the wells, the
equipment and the access drives that would all occupy an area
of approximately two acres. The remaining 8.5 acres of this site
would remain undeveloped and would be available for future
development. The compound would be located on the southeast
corner of the property adjacent to the highway. The north
boundary of the Technicolor property is immediately to the south
of the proposed compound. The other equipment and
machinery that is required to operate the facility includes four
12 -foot diameter by 20 -foot high 400 -barrel capacity oil storage
tanks. Those are located at the west end of the properly. There
would be a propane storage facility that would be somewhere
between 20,000 to 30,000 gallons in size. There would be a
compression building and a control building. Additional
equipment, identified on the plan, include indirect and direct
December 12, 2006
23753
heaters, as well as a JT unit, which separates the gas from the
oil. Also as you can see on this plan, containment berms would
be constructed around the storage tanks, as well as the
production units and heaters. These containment berms would
surround these facilities for safety purposes. In addition, these
storage tanks would be depressed another five feet below the
surrounding ground surface, the idea being that the area outside
of these tanks and contained within these berms equals no less
than 1 % capacity of all the storage within those tanks. Access
to the compound would be provided by means of a 25 -fool wide
asphalt drive that extends into the compound from the
easement on the Pentagon condominium properly. This drive
way traverses generally in a northeasterly direction for a
distance of about 450 feel. The access road would proceed
through the facility's main entrance gate where it would connect
to a private drive that loops around the penmeler of the
compound. The drive would be paved to a point just past the
main gale and from that point on would be composed of gravel.
The equipment and access loop would be completely enclosed
by a 6 -fool high chain link fence. The landscape plan includes
the earthen berm that would be constructed outside of a fence.
This would be along the south, east and north sides of the
compound. This berth would be approximately forty feel in
width and five feel in height. The lop would be planted with a
total of approximately 128 six fool high evergreen trees. Along
the bottom and outer edge, there would be about 65 twelve to
fifteen foot high deciduous trees planted. In addition, there
would be other shrubs planted intermittently at the base of the
berm in groups of 3, 5 or 7. The landscape plan also notes that
some of the existing trees on the site and in the area outside of
the construction impact would be maintained. To handle the
storm water runoff of the development, the plan does show a
small slormwaler retention basin that would be constructed just
west of the compound facility. This is a slant dnlling operation
and it's designed to tap into a coral reef reservoir that is located
about 3,500 feel below the surface. Its part of what is called
the Niagaran reef. It is our understanding that these wells
would operate for an indefinite period of time. It depends on the
output. Initially, the oil would nse to the surface via gravity.
Over the life of the wells, however, it may be necessary to install
pump jacks. Most of you are familiar with those. Those are
what you would typically see associated with oil well operations.
It is estimated that there would be one to two trucks picking up
oil and gas per day, and that would depend on the production
level. It is anticipated that it would be somewhere on the order
of 200 barrels a day, and that would coincide with the one or
two pickup trucks per day. The representatives from West Bay
December 12, 2006
23754
Exploration are here to provide significanfly more detail
regarding this petition. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Miller:
There are three items of correspondence. The first item is from
the Engineering Division, dated November 27, 2006, which
reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the Engineering
Division has reviewed the above -referenced petition. The
petitioner's phasing narrative refers to 'Construct drilling pad
complete with perimeter dykes (2 days)' and 'Install drilling unit
component secondary containment (1 day)', but the drawings
presented do not specifically define the location of these dykes
in a manner similar to the dyke shown around the tank battery.
Based on the grading plan on sheet 06-023-102, it appears that
there will be a spillage overflow mute along the proposed
roadway and offsite to the culvert under the asphalt drive. This
issue must be clarified." The letter is signed by Robert J.
Schron, P.E., City Engineer. The second letter is from the
Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated December 7, 2006, which
reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan
submitted in connection with a request to drill oil and gas
exploration wells on property located at the above -referenced
address. We have no objections to this proposal." The letter is
signed by Andrew C. Walker, Fire Marshal. The third letter is
from the Inspection Department, dated December 4, 2006,
which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request of November
15, 2006, the above -referenced petition has been reviewed.
This Department has no objections to this petition." The letter is
signed by Alex Bishop, Assistant Director of Inspection. That is
the extent of the correspondence.
Mr. Walsh:
I will open the floor for questions from the Commissioners to the
staff, but I understand the petitioner will be giving us a thorough
presentation this evening. So, are there any questions for staff
before we go to the petitioner? Seeing none, then I will ask the
petitioner to come forward.
Timothy Baker,
West Bay Exploration, 5555 N. Hogback Road, Fowlerville,
Michigan 48836. Good evening. My name is Tim Baker. I'm
Operations Manager for West Bay Exploration. We maintain a
field office in Fowlerville. Just to add a few informational points,
during the Phase I operation, we will be putting in groundwater
monitoring wells around the site. We will also be putting in
plastic under all the rig components, and we will have that
plastic slope to a central collection point, which will be around
the well head. That fluid actually is used in the drilling process,
so we dont waste that fluid. At the completion of the well, that
December 12, 2006
23155
fluid is then trucked to a state -approved disposal facility. So as
to the clarification on the diking, there will be diking around the
facility itself, but all the equipment will have the plastic
underneath it and that will collect all the water that falls on the
actual drilling site itself. A little bit about our company. We've
been in business as West Bay Exploration for about 25 years.
When we initially started drilling down here, we drilled several
wells under the Sumoco name, and later we went to the West
Bay Exploration name. Sumoco, of course, meaning Southern
Michigan Oil Company. We have two other wells in the area,
the Slate Northville 1-11 and 1-12. They're within a couple
miles. Both those wells have been producing for approximately
20 years, and the 1-11 well, in particular, is still flowing. It
should have anywhere from 800,000 to 1 million barrels of
reserves. The 1-12 looks like its going to have somewhere in
the area of half a million to 600,000. We also have three wells
in Novi. We have a well a Troy, a couple wells in Sterling
Heights, We wells in Kensington Metro Park. So we have a lot
of experience in operating in urbanized areas. We are,
however, continually updating our operation with our experience
level. In fad, the additional measures we're going to include in
the model you see before you is that we're going to add odor
detection devices which will monitor the air quality around the
site. We're also adding video surveillance, as well as 24 hour
monitoring of all the well characteristics. That is all the
equipment. We will be monitoring high -low levels of fluid, high
low levels in temperature, every operating facet of the well. We
also have the ability, as we do on all of our wells, to shut in the
well anywhere by phone or radio. So if there are any issues
related to odor, any issues related to well control problems, and
by that I mean the temperature levels and so forth, we can shut
that in or make changes by PC from anywhere. As to Phase 2,
which is again the facility itself, we're going to also have fire
..eyes' in the facility, which will detect any fire and notify the
proper authorities. So everything will be timed to try to be
operator friendly. We will have two operators which will be
manning the site, and additional other personnel which will be
doing periodic maintenance through the site. This is a typical
drilling rig, so you can see these are actually the three rigs that
we use. Those derricks are approximately a little over 100 feet
tall. The equipment that you see around the sides of it are
various mud pumps and controlling equipment for hoisting and
lowering the drill pipe. Those are powered by diesel engines.
Those diesel engines are the same that you would see or would
expect to see in trucks. So the noise issue will be about the
same as the truck traffic on the adjacent expressway, except
that we will be adding the hospital mufflers to quiet them down
for 24-hour operation. In terms of the truck traffic, we can work
December 12, 2006
23756
with your local authorities in trying to schedule that truck traffic,
whether that be in the Phase 1 drilling and completion of the
well and also the operation after the fad. We can schedule that
at non -peak hours, non -school hours, that sort of thing. The
trucks that haul out the oil are exactly like the trucks you see
deliver gasoline to your local gas stations. So we'll try to have
those coming in at lower hour peak times. I guess as a final
note, we're open to any suggestions for additional improvement
in our equipment or our landscaping plan. If someone has an
idea about what types of plantings or different types of trees,
we're open to suggestion.
Mr. Walsh: Thankyou. Are there questions?
Mr. La Pine: For the people in the audience and out in television land, will
you give us a rundown on what are the advantages to the city
as far as revenue, or how many years we can expect the oil and
things of that nature please?
Mr. Baker: Right. Given the information that we have from area wells, and
these are the three wells that are in the City of Novi and the two
wells that are at the State psychiatric hospital site, we expect
the revenue to be anywhere from $1.4 to $2.9 million. And the
variances of the low numbers, the 500,000 barrel oil at the 1-12
state hospital well, we think that's actually going to do more
now. And the high, of course, is the 1-11 right next to it, which
is the million barrel anomaly. We're also using $60 oil and $8
per thousand cubic fool gas pricing. Interesting thing to note is
that we've all seen a ran up in oil prices, so this number
obviously can vary. As a company, we don't expect oil prices to
drop below say $55 per barrel. There are obviously a number of
external pressures that affect that, one being the supply, the
OPEC factor, and also the South American factor with the
recent change in government. The United Slates is
approximately 60 percent dependent on foreign oil, so anything
that we can develop domestically obviously is of benefit.
Another additional benefit is the severance tax. There is a
severance lax of 7 percent on the wellhead of any oil and gas
that's extracted from a well. That money goes into the Natural
Resources Trust Fund. Wayne and Oakland Counties have
realized the benefit to the lune of about $50 million each. That
money is doled out on a grant basis for parts and recreation,
and obviously these wells will add to that fund.
Mr. La Pine: The estimated revenue at $1.4 to $2.9 million, that's over the 20
year span that we expect these wells to operate. Is that
correct?
December 12, 2006
23757
Mr. Baker:
That's correct, and that is attributable to the interest of the City
of Livonia as well.
Mr. LaPine:
Okay. Now the other question I have, we have oil and gas. I
understand there is also propane gas in there. Will we get a
revenue from that loo?
Mr. Baker:
You can. I didn't include that. Unlit we drill the well, we're not
sure how much propane we're going to get, propane and
butane. The gas quality does vary from location to location
slightly, and in some locations, we actually have more propane
or less propane. We won't know until we drill the well.
Mr. LaPine:
The other question I have, the natural gas, I understand, is
going to piped along the expressway down to a holding in
another area of Wayne County. Is that correct?
Mr. Baker:
Yes. We've been talking with Consumers Power or Consumers
Energy. There's two possible places for us to take the gas. One
is to the Northville City gale, which is just outside of Northville
about three miles west, and the other is to take it to an
interconnection with a transmission line, which crosses
approximately in the area of SchoolcraR Road adjacent to the
275 corridor.
Mr. LaPine:
Okay. One other question I have. In the correspondence we
got from the Public Works Department, there is one paragraph
that says, "Based on the grading plan on sheet 06-023-102, it
appears that there will be a spillage overflow mute along the
proposed roadway and offsite to the culvert under the asphalt
drive. This issue must be clarified." I don't understand what
they're talking about. Maybe you can clarify that for us.
Mr. Baker:
I think they were speaking relative to Phase 1. We probably
didn't adequately explain the issue with putting plastic
underneath all the rig components. It probably was confusing
relative to Phase 1 as to where that water was going to go. We
will clarify that issue.
Mr. LaPine:
That's going to be taken care of. We won't have to worry about
any spillage?
Mr. Baker:
It will be taken care of.
Mr. LaPine:
You've got all the safety issues here in place so we are well
protected. We don't have to worry about any big fires,
explosions or anything of that nature?
December 12, 2006
23758
Mr. Baker: That's correct. We have had an excellent record. We've never
had any problems to any extent. We've learned over time about
odorcontrol. We used to build ourfacilites using the well gas to
control some of the devices that control the levels. We now use
compressed air. We don't vent anything at all. We also will be
striping the propane, and I assume there will be a certain
amount of it. So there won't be any waste gas or anything like
that to be flared here.
Mr. LaPine: I don't want to take up the whole conversation, but just one
more question if you can explain to everybody in the audience.
Everything is going to be depressed down, so basically it will not
be seen from the highway or roadway or anything of that nature.
Is that correct?
Mr. Baker: That's correct. Referring to the model in the center of the stage,
and you're welcome to look at it after our presentation, but with
the landscaping in there, the berms will disguise most of it. But
with the addition of the landscaping, if you were to sit in the fifth
story of the Embassy Suites across the street, it would be very
difficult to see that there's anything there. It would simply look
like a wood lot.
Mr. La Pine: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Morrow: Is d the Slate that regulates this operation as far as the laws that
you conform lo?
Mr. Baker: It is.
Mr. Morrow: Is thatthe only controlling body?
Mr. Baker: Well, DEQ, but cities also have jurisdiction. In the case of
Sterling Heights, Novi, Utica and Troy, that jurisdiction has fallen
to the Fire Marshal, but that's something that's been granted by
the City Council or the Mayor. It varies from case to case, but
there is duplicate jurisdiction. In terms of how the wel is drilled
and the casing strings are cemented, that comes under the
DEQ. Of course, we want to be in full compliance with whatever
city body may have a concern as well.
Mr. Morrow: Thank you. Secondly, when the well slops flowing, Mr.
Taormina used tie tens "pump jack." Could you explain what
that is?
Mr. Baker: Its artificial lift. We actually run rods down in the tubing in the
well and put a pump at the bottom of the rods that will pull up
when the formation no longer has enough pressure to flow
December 12, 2006
23759
naturally to the surface. Then we add artificial lift and that would
pump up the fluid. The pumping units we've selected, they
won't be visible either from outside of the site because they're
going to be a low profile. Their maximum height, I believe, is 22
feet.
Mr. Morrow:
Twenty-two feet?
Mr. Baker:
Right. So they wont be visible from outside. By depressing this
site and adding mounds around the outside and then the
vegetation, you won't be able to see the pumping units at all.
Mr. Morrow:
But that is something way off in the future, I assume?
Mr. Baker:
Well, again, referring to the Slate Northville wells, the 1-11 and
1-12, the 1-12 has been on pump for about 10 years of its 20
year life and the 1-11 is flowing and its been 20 years now that
Its flowing.
Mr. Morrow:
Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw:
I have a slew of questions for you, Mr. Baker. Just starting with
some of the previous questions that were asked, you mentioned
that you have phases of development where you're going to
start with derricks and then go to the pumping operations. What
is the estimated time frame that you would actually begin,
assuming you have approvals from all these bodies and the
city? What sort of time frame are you looking to start?
Mr. Baker:
Probably a month after we have approvals in order to get
everything lined up to make sure that your inspectors are
satisfied with our site and our plans.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Looking at the end of this project, at some point when
you do run out of oil, what happens to the site?
Mr. Baker:
Its restored. We have a bond that we place with the
Department of Natural Resources and that guarantees that we
will restore the site to the original contours. Of course, if there's
an agreement with a developer or agreement with the city or
something to restore it to a different set of circumstances, we
cross that bridge when we come to it. But we're required by the
DEQ to restore it.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. We talked about posting a bond for restoration of the
site. Now looking from a safety perspective, have you ever
posted a safety bond in communities to deal with any potential
December 12, 2006
23760
issues of fire, explosions, any safety concerns that may arise in
the future?
Mr. Baker:
In the other communities what we've done in the past is to
provide them with our umbrella liability. We have $1 million
umbrella liability for any occurrence at all.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. And has our Fire Department and Police Department had
an opportunity to start looking at a safety plan or emergency
procedures that they would need to go through in the event of
an occurrence?
Mr. Baker:
I can't speak for the Fire Marsal directly. I have had some
conversation with him. We generally work in concert. There's a
lot of communities that don't have a lot of experience with oil
and gas, although a lot of the principles for fighting a lot of the
fires in any type of business you might apply here as well.
Pending our approval, we will be sifting down with them and
working out plans and discussing the project.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. So they would have something in place in the event that
there is a well fire that they could know what the proper
procedures are for handling that situation.
Mr. Baker:
That's correct. We have on file with the Stale for every well we
drill what we call an SPCC Plan and a PIP Plan. We also
comply with the Sarah Title 3 Regulations and Plans which
essentially provide a detailed drawing and escape routes and
inventory of hydrocarbons and various other chemicals that are
maintained on the site, and that's submitted yearly to the Fire
Department. We'll do that here as well.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. And then I had a question about environmental -type
concerns. You mentioned you have odor protection on the site,
you have fire protection on the site, security. How about
groundwater contamination? How do you monitor that?
Mr. Baker:
We monitor the aquifers. We actually report those quarterly to
the MDEQ. We monitor them for BXTA's, any hydrocarbons as
well as brine and salt water. Of course, during the drilling
phase, we guarantee that we're not going to have cross flow of
fluids by cementing every spring, but the 2-7/8 inch well spring
in the very center to surface.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. And then one last question: you talked about the
estimate revenues that the city will realize
as a result of the
Greenmead property that the city owns. Obviously, part of this
well is under a subdivision as well. I'm sure several of the
December 12, 2006
23761
residents that may live in that subdivision could be in the
audience here tonight. Can you give us a feeling for what sort
of revenues they may receive as a result of mineral rights on
their property?
Mr. Baker:
We ran a quick calculation based on a quarter acre looking at . .
. by quick I mean we looked at the average lot size in the
subdivision and calculated that they would probably see about
$30,000 over the life of the well.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay, which is approximately 20 years or so?
Mr. Baker:
Yes, 20 years. We use 18 to 20 as an average life calculation.
Of course, it goes up proportionally with the years of life and the
bigger the resource. Again, I use an average of 750,000 barrels
of oil and about half of gas.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. That's it for now. Thank you.
Mrs. McDermott:
Mr. Baker, could you maybe explain this a Iitlle bit more in detail
for the audience, what measures you have in place to either
prevent or handle any type of oil spill on the site?
Mr. Baker:
Yes, I'd be glad to. First of all, the tanks have an underlaymenl
consisting of a 60 mil plastic liner. Its the type that doesn't of
course deteriorate in the sun. In fad, all the vessels are within a
secondary containment, one and half times the theoretical
volume of all the equipment. We also have high and low level
shutdowns, so if a vessel were to fail, for example, a low level
shutdown would trigger it or a low pressure shutdown would
trigger the wells to be shut in. Its all designed as a fail -closed
system. In other words, if any of those parameters are not met
that we set and all those various parameters, the well would
shut itself in, or the wells will shut themselves in. Also, the
groundwater monitoring is continually monitored. The air quality
monitoring, if there's any emissions ... we're sti l in the learning
phase but we're finding that it's working pretty well, these odor
detection devices. In fad, we're going to be incorporating them
on all our new facilities. We're getting ready to move the facility
at the state hospital away from it's current location next to the
old powerhouse back to the wel site to accommodate the
development in that area as well. But these odor detection
devices we've installed out there, and they're working quite well.
We still have some bugs to work out, but I think by the time we
get these drilled, we'll have them pretty well under control.
Mrs. McDermott
Okay. Thank you.
December 12, 2006
23762
Mr. Walsh: Are there any additional questions for the pettoner? I have one
before we go to the audience. Mr. Baker, can you confirm the
drilling rigs themselves? How long would those be up for?
Mr. Baker: Well, again, I expect about two weeks per well. So
approximately a month.
Mr. Walsh: With that, I'm going to ask you to just take notes of any
comments that are made, and you'll have the opportunity to
come back up again after the public tearing to respond. Is
there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak for or
against this petition? Please give us your name and address.
Bill Craig, 20050 Milburn. I want to thank the petitioner for inviting me to an
earlier meeting to discuss some of my concerns, and a lot of the
questions I had were answered today. I just wanted to bring out
a couple other items. Twenty to 25 years is a long time and
some of you might be retired by then. But things change and
I'm more concerned about the legal assurances of what
happens to this site and how they transfer because my
understanding that companies get bought out; they're merging;
they're changing. Good people are here and then we might
have a less quality company buy this company out. And that is
my concern. The long-term assurances that this community will
have that everything is done correctly and maintained correctly
to protect our public safety and our environmental health.
That's the one thing that I wanted to stress is the guarantees
that come along with this package. So the legal documents are
going to be the strongest thing to protect us in the long haul.
Other people have brought to my attention that some of these
sites, maybe not this gentleman's company, but there are other
sites that have 20 years on them, and they look like junk yards
and you can't hardly tell that lheyre operating if they are, and
they seem to be abandoned. I can't remember the exact
location, somewhere not too far away from here. But I haven't
been able to identify that as to who is the owner of that properly,
but that's one of my other concerns is 20 years from now what
we have on our hands. Closure of the site, not as a brownfield,
but as something reusable and uncontaminated is what we
should expect. The other one is, I don't know, my question
through the chair would be, I'm guessing that this is number six
grade oil. This is a thick kind of black substance. This is not
something that pours easily. I dont know.
Mr. Walsh: Mr. Baker, is there an easy answer to that or do you want to
wait until the end?
December 12, 2006
23763
Mr. Baker: In some areas of Michigan, that is true. We have some wells in
the thumb area that are 30 gravity oil. In other words, they look
like tar. That's not true in the case of the State Northville wells
and the Novi wells and the wells we have in the Consumers
Power front yard at Seven Mile. It's actually kind of a green oil
and its almost like sewing machine oil. It's about 47 degree
gravity oil. But to give you an idea of where that is on a scale,
condensate is about a 50, so its fairly light.
Mr. Craig:
That's better to clean up. Another one is the expected
revenues. Things change. It sounds like oil is only going to gel
more expensive and that's going to be a benefit. Those
royalties will be a benefit to the city and certainly to the
neighbors that are going to reap these royalties. That's going to
be a seller for this. And I would just like to make a suggestion
that a certain dedicated percentage of the royalties for the city
go to Greenmead since its under their properties that we benefit
this income. Thank you very much.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you, Mr. Craig. Is there anybody else in the audience
that wishes to speak for or against this petition? We have
someone coming forward, so we'll wail a moment. If there's
anyone else in the audience wishing to speak, I would request
that you come forward please. Good evening.
Nancy Addido
Gray, 21136 Lujon Drive, Farmington Hills. It's a Northville
address but I live in Farmington Hills. We're immediately north
of Eight Mile. There was an original plan I thought that this site
would end up in Greenmead. What's happened to that plan or is
R another phase of the plan?
Mr. Walsh:
There's nothing before us but this one, ma'am. This is their only
intended site. That's all that's been filed with us.
Ms. Gray:
I understand that that's this plan. Is there a plan that will extend
into Greenmead? Is that a future plan?
Mr. Morrow:
I think what they'll do is they will access the Greenmead site
fromthissite. They will not drill straight down.
Ms. Gray:
So there is a plan?
Mr. Morrow:
No. The plan you're seeing tonight, one of the wells, and the
Engineer can correct me if I'm wrong, they will not drill straight
down. They will drill down and then they will go under the
expressway and wind up at Greenmead. So this well will be
servicing Greenmead.
December 12, 2006
23764
Ms. Gray:
We're hearing about the extension that will end up in
Greenmead?
Mr. Morrow:
Well, I'm not sure I understand the question.
Ms. Gray:
Why aren't we hearing about the total plan?
Mr. Walsh:
Ma'am, this is the total plan. This is what is before us for
reaction.
Ms. Gray:
I understand. However, if its not the complete plan of drilling
and rigs and there will be additional drilling that will end up in
Greenmead, is there a reason why we're not hearing about
that?
Mr. Walsh:
We're not hearing about it because it's our firm belief that it's not
going to happen. We have nothing before us except for a plan
at this site. They may do directional, I understand to be
directional drilling, and Mr. Baker may address this when he
speaks, that goes underneath Greenmead, but we're not
considering any drilling on that site or anywhere else for that
matter. The only pefifion before us is this one.
Ms. Gray:
Another question that I would have is, do we know the extent of
the mineral rights in terms of when the drilling occurs, what
residents are affected and how do we know the underground
extent of this drilling?
Mr. Walsh:
I will ask Mr. Baker to address that when we comes up.
Ms. Gray:
I'm also concerned about the environmental aspects of this in a
heavily populated area, and I'm surprised that the Planning
Commission doesn't address those environmental concerns
more thoroughly. I haven't heard much discussion about it. I
know its been addressed. I would call it probably superficially
addressed. We have much concern about odor. I understand
that there are areas, I don't know if it's the company, there are
areas of drilling in the Manistee area where there are signs for
the public to warn them about the environment around the
drilling areas. We're not hearing much about the environmental
impact, and I wonder about that. Thanks.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you. Is there anybody else in the audience wishing to
speak? Seeing no one coming forward, Mr. Baker you have the
opportunity to have the final word on the subject.
Mr. Baker:
Lel me take the opportunity to answer Nancys questons very
quickly. We've mel with Greenmead. There apparently was
December 12, 2006
23765
some misinformation early on that we were actually going to put
a drill site on Greenmead, and that's not the case. We are
going to directional drill, that is, dnll from this parcel, and we will
end up adjacent or just under the Greenmead parcel, but that
will not affect anything that is going on the surface. And to the
question of the mineral nghls, at this point our plan is to include
the 80 acres that you see outlined in the square or rectangle on
the board. What we generally do is we ran geophysical lines,
interpret the geophysical lines, determine the extent of the
reservoir and of the lease people that we believe it to be
underneath. As to the question about Manistee, I know those
are not our wells. We do a well up in that area, and it has the
same types of safely systems that we have down here, but the
wells I believe you're refering to is not our wells. As to Bill
Craig's question, if I've got these all comect, Bill, the answer to
the first question about what happens if we were to sell. Well,
first of all, we haven't been in the business to do that in the 20
years that I've been associated with the company, but I believe
that there is power within the City Council to require that any
subsequent purchaser agree to the various agreements that
we're agreeing to here. And that can pass on from operator to
operator, so that would guarantee that these wells are kept in
good working condition. I'm familiar with the wells that he's
talking about west of here. Those are not our wells, and I agree
they haven't spent any money on paint in some time. And the
final point I'd like to make, by monitoring the groundwater on a
quarterly basis, that means we test it and go in and sample it
every quarter, and we have an independent company do that
and supply that to the State. That guarantees that there's not
going to ever be a brownfeld here.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you, Mr. Baker. Are there any additional questions or
comments?
Mr. Wilshaw: I wanted to ask Mr. Baker. Just to bounce off of Mrs. Gray's
comments about odor, can you tell us a little bit about hydrogen
sulfide, the odor that's produced at some wells, and why this
area is different than maybe areas up north, wells that are up in
that area?
Mr. Baker: Well, that's a good point. We had this problem arise in other
areas, specifically Farmington Hills, and it became a central
issue of our pursuing a permit in Farmington. As a result of that,
there was some misinformation that was out there, again about
H2S. H2S is a gas that smells like rotten eggs in low
concentrations. It is a deadly gas at high enough
concentrations. In this particular area, the line that exists, and
it's a line based on sampling wells between sweet production, in
December 12, 2006
23766
other words, production that has no KS in the gas, and sour
production, is about 12 miles north of our proposed site. And
that, for example, we operate the City of Dearborn wells, and
the northern most well has a trace of HzS. That's why the line
goes through that area. But we do not expect any H2S to occur,
and neither the 1-31 or the 1-6 prospect, but to further that
discussion, we asked the expert at the Slate of Michigan
Department of Natural Resources to render his opinion, and I
supplied that letter to the Planning Commission. In that letter, in
essence, he thinks that there will be no chance that we will
encounter H2S in our proposed wells.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. If you did encounter any KS odors, the odor detection
equipment that you're going to put on site is to address that
concern?
Mr. Baker: During the dnlling process, we will also have the mud additives
necessary to neutralize H2S. We do on every well we dnll in the
state, and we will have HzS detection devices, which will be up
and operable while we're drilling the well.
Mr.Wilshaw: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any additional questions? Thank you, Mr. Baker. A
motion would be in order.
On a motion by Smiley, seconded by Wilshaw, and unanimously adopted, it was
#12-129-2006 RESOLVED, that the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Petition 2006-10-08-19
submitted by West Bay Exploration Company requesting
approval of all plans required by Section 18.52 of the Zoning
Ordinance in connection with a proposal to dnll oil and gas
exploration wells on properly located at 39900 Seven Mile Road
in the Southwest''/. of Section 6, be approved subject to the
following conditions:
1. That the Site Plan marked Drawing Number 06-023-101
dated November 6, 2006, prepared by Hydrocarbon
Technology Engineenng, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to;
2. That the Landscape Plan marked Sheet 5 dated October
27, 2006, prepared by Westshore Consulting, is hereby
approved and shall be adhered to;
3. That the height of the planted trees shall be measured from
the top ofthe root ball to the mid -point ofthe top leader;
December 12, 2006
23767
4.
That all disturbed lawn areas shall be sodded in lieu of
hydroseeding;
5.
That the Developer shall submit a maintenance and
irrigation program, as approved by the City of Livonia
Inspection Department, describing replanting procedures
and scheduled watering applications of the site's plant
materials;
6.
That the Exterior Building Elevation Plan marked Drawing
Number 06-023-501 dated November 13, 2006, prepared
by Hydrocarbon Technology Engineering, is hereby
approved and shall be adhered to;
7.
That the petitioner shall secure the necessary perils,
including storm water management permits, wetlands
permits and soil erosion and sedimentation control permits,
from Wayne County, the City of Livonia, and/or the State of
Michigan Department of Environmental Quality;
8.
That all light fixtures shall not exceed twenty (20') feet in
height and shall be aimed and shielded so as to minimize
stray light trespassing across properly lines and glaring
into adjacent roadway,
9.
That the petitioner shall correct to the Engineering
Division's satisfaction the items outlined in the
correspondence dated November 27, 2006,
10.
That only conforming signage is approved with this petition,
and any additional signage shall be separately submitted
for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals;
11.
That the specific plans referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time the building permits are applied for; and,
12.
Pursuant to Section 19.10 of Ordinance #543, the Zoning
Ordinance of the City of Livonia, this approval is valid for a
period of one year only from the date of approval by City
Council, and unless a building permit is obtained and
construction has commenced, this approval shall be null
and void al the expiration of said period.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any discussion? Seeing none, there are a couple points
I would like to make. I'll be voting in support of the resolution. A
couple points. Mr. Craig, your commentary, I'm not sure if
December 1Z 2006
23768
you're still here or not, but your commentary regarding revenue
sharing is beyond our purview. That might be something you'll
bring up with the Council when you get to that point should this
pass. On the safety issues, all the members of the Council in
our city have received voluminous material. I did have an
opportunity to discuss this at length at a study session. The fad
that we did not discuss it tonight doesn't mean that we haven't
considered it. I also take faith in the fad fiat this well will be
governed by the stale and federal government. I know not
everybody believes that the government is here to help, but I
have some faith in that, and I think the long range property
values will be fine. So with that, would the secretary please call
the roll?
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the mofion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
ITEM#4 PETITION 200640-0227 HAROLD ZEIGLER
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Pelifion 2006-
10-02-27 submitted by Harold Zeigler Auto Group, on behalf of
J. D. Byrider, Inc., requesting waiver use approval to operate an
auto dealership at 35841 Plymouth Road, on properly located
on the south side of Plymouth Road between Levan Road and
Yale Avenue in the Northeast % of Section 32.
Mr. Walsh: This item was tabled at a prior meeting. Before we can begin
consideration, I'll need a motion to remove it from the table.
On a motion by La Pine, seconded by Wilshaw, and unanimously adopted, it was
#12-130-2006 RESOLVED, that the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend that Petition 2006-10-02-27 submitted by Harold
Zeigler Auto Group, on behalf of J. D. Byrider, Inc., requesting
waiver use approval to operate an auto dealership at 35841
Plymouth Road, on property located on the south side of
Plymouth Road between Levan Road and Yale Avenue in the
Northeast % of Section 32 be removed from the table.
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. To give a bit of background, the item was tabled to
provide the petitioner with an opportunity to meet with
individuals in the neighborhood. We had an extensive
discussion of their business and their plans. Because this is
coming off the table, our intention tonight is only to look at new
December 12, 2006
23169
information. With that, unless our staff has anything to report,
I'll turn the floor over to the petitioner. We will have an audience
participation portion following the petitioner. But again, we're
going to refrain everything to just new items this evening. With
that, I'll open the floor to the petitioner.
Aaron Zeigler, President, Harold Zeigler Auto Group, 4201 Stadium Drive,
Kalamazoo, Michigan 49008. I'd like to thank the Planning
Commission for reviewing our proposal again this evening. Al
the last meeting a month ago, the Planning Commission had
asked us to meet with the neighbors to listen to their concerns
and make changes to our proposal. Immediately following the
last meeting, as soon as we walked out of the room here, there
was a group of neighbors that spoke out against the project.
We got with them right away, minutes after this meeting, and
asked for their phone numbers and addresses, which all of them
but one declined us. They asked us to get those through the
city. So we got their addresses and names through the city.
The day we got those names and addresses, we next -day aired
32 letters out overnight to notify them that we were going to
have a meeting on November 28. Out of the 32 people, we had
three people respond that they would be at the meeting. We
had six people respond that they would not attend and we had
23 people that we did not hear from. On November 28 we had
our meeting here in Livonia, and Wo of the three people that
said they would be at the meeting were there. We got some
very good feedback from the neighbors that were at that
meeting that evening. Any neighbor that had called us and said
they could not make the meeting, if we had their phone number
we called them back to have conversations one-on-one with
them. We did have 12 phone conversations with neighbors
one-on-one. Any neighbor that we did not have their phone
number, we then sent them a second mailing overnight that
gave them our direct phone numbers and told them that we
would be more than happy to meet with them at any point if they
would just give us a call. After that, when we found out that we
were going to be on the agenda for this evening, we sent one
last letter out approximately a week ago to all of the neighbors,
told them that we were going to be on the agenda tonight, and if
they had any more feedback on the proposal we'd be happy to
meet with them. We did not get a response from anybody back
on the last letter. Based on the feedback that we got, our
objective was to provide as much communication as possible
with the neighbors to listen to them, to hear their concerns, and
to make changes to our project. Onginally, in the rear of the
project backing up to the neighbors houses, we had proposed
to have a 20 -fool buffer zone. We noticed going down Plymouth
Road that nobody else, at lead as far as I could see, nobody
December 12, 2006
23770
else had a buffer zone like that, but we offered up a 20 fool
buffer zone, and the neighbors didn't kink that was enough. So
we increased our buffer zone by 50 percent to 30 feet. The
other thing that we've agreed to do is to anywhere where the
trees are thinner in that buffer zone, we have agreed to plant
pine trees. We said we'd gel the biggest pine trees that we
possibly could and we told the neighbors that they were more
than welcome to come out there and tell us where they would
like those planted, and we'd put as many pine trees in there as
we possibly could. We also offered up if any of them wanted us
to put trees on their property, we would be more than happy to
do that as well. The second concern that the neighbors had
was the lighting, especially on the south side of the project that
backs up to their houses. We originally had 20 fool poles. We
cut those down to 16 fool poles, and then we cul the lighting by
50 percent on the south side of the project. The next thing that
we did is we went out and found a special light that actually has
shields on both sides of the light that will block any light from
going back into the neighbors' yards. The lights that we're
going to use are actually the latest technology in lighting.
They're endorsed by a lot of environmental groups. They're
called "night sky approved" lights so you won't gel that flood
light effect up above the property. What that means is you can
look above our piece of property and see the stars or see the
moon as clear as you could if there wasn't any light there. We
also had a photometric performed on the site to show where the
lighting would go towards the neighbors' yards. And with the
new plan that we have in place, zero percent of our lighting will
hit any portion of any of the neighbors' yards because zero
percent lighting is going towards the neighbors' yards with this
latest plan. Also, when our business is closed, the lights will go
off automatically. They'll be on timers. So anytime we're
closed, the lights will be off. The only time the lights will be on is
when we're in operation. Approximately six months of the dear
the lights will slay off all the time because the latest we're ever
opened is 8:00 p.m. A couple of nights a week we dose at
6:00, on Saturdays we close at 4:00, and we're always closed
on Sundays. The next concern that the neighbors had was
noise. We originally in the rear of the building, in the back of the
building, we had a metal siding on the building. We changed
that to solid block to make sure that no noise got through there.
One of the big concerns to the neighbors was that in a business
like ours you have a compressor, and the compressor could be
noisy. In our project in Kalamazoo, we have a metal side
building and a block building. I went out there myself. I opened
up the garage doors. I went to the rear of the property where
the neighbors' houses are and I couldn't hear any noise from
the compressor. But we went one step further with this
December 12, 2006
23771
compressor, and we're actually building the compressor inside
of our building in a block room. So you have a block wall room,
and then you've got block walls on the outside. So it's a double
block wall that the compressor will be in. It will be impossible to
hear the compressor outside of our shop. There will be no
speaker system on our properly, either outside or inside.
Absolutely no speakers. The overhead doors, there was
concern that they were going to be on the back of the building.
They're not. They're going to be on the side of the building.
Our overhead doors are set up so that when a car comes in,
there's an electronic eye, the door will go up, the car goes in,
and the door automatically doses behind the car. One of the
concerns of the neighbors in the summer if it gets hot, will they
keep those doors open all the time. And the answer to that is
that it's impossible because the doors are automatic when you
drive in. When you drive up to the door, there's no chiming or
anything like that. It's just an electronic eye. As soon as you
break the plane of that, the door goes up and then comes back
down. The doors that we use in our shop are just like a garage
door in a house. They dont make any more noise that what a
garage door would from a house. One of the things that we'd
like to do is we'd like to obviously stick with the facts on this
project. Last time we were here, I know the neighbors threw out
a lot of hypothetical what its could happen with our project. So
we went and talked to our current neighbors in Kalamazoo and
in Lansing. And they've said the same thing. They wrote letters
of support. I think you've all seen the m. They say that we don't
have any noise coming from our property. There's no lighting
issues, and they've had absolutely no issues with us
whatsoever. There was a package submitted by the Elmira
Neighborhood Association to the Planning Commission that had
a lot of inaccuracies in it. I'd like to just lake a couple of
seconds to clear those up because I think they're really
important. The first thing that they staled today was that using
the City of Kalamazoo GIS mapping system, there are no
houses directly behind the Kalamazoo J. D. Byrider Dealership.
It says, using the mapping system, we have determined that Ms.
Little's property — she wrote a letter of support on this project --
is more than 214 feet from J. D. Bynder's property, substantially
greater than the distances from the residences of Livonia. It's
actually a very inaccurate statement. What they didn't realize is
what our piece of property was. I brought a map showing - and
I'll pass this around - showing our property in Kalamazoo.
There's six houses that directly touch our property in
Kalamazoo, and a couple of those neighbors had wrote letters
of support stating that they don't have any of the hypothetical
issues that came up. Can I pass this around?
December 12, 2006
23772
Mr. Walsh: Yes, you can. Actually, you can just give it to Mr. Nowak.
Mr. Zeigler: The last time I was here, one of the neighbors complained that
her property gets flooded every summer when it rains because
of this piece of property. We went out there and looked, and
there's actually a wall that separates the piece of property and it
cuts out. It's actually set up so the water is going to drain into
the neighbor's yard, and that's why it's gelling flooded. We
have obviously put a drainage system on our piece of properly.
We talked wlh our engineer. He said that we can actually go
ahead and we can cap those holes in the wall. If the neighbors
would like, we're more than willing to do that because we're
going to take care of the stone water. We're going to lake it
underground. There won't be any flooding in the neighbor's
yard anymore from this piece of property if our project goes
through. We're going to reduce the number of curb cuts on this
properly by one, from three to two, which will improve traffic flow
along Plymouth Road. We also did an environmental study
since the Iasi meeting here, and the building that currently sits
on the property is filled with abeslos. It's a contaminated site.
Abeslos, as everybody knows, is what causes cancer out there.
We are going to obviously remove the abeslos and we're going
to clean the site up. There's also currenfly an old dilapidated
trailer and an abandoned building on this site. In talking to the
neighboring business owner, his exact words to us were, boy, I
hope you come in here and clean up this property because it's a
danger right now to the city because we have homeless people
and vagabonds coming and going from this site. Those were
his exact words, and I think he's here tonight to speak a little bit
about that. I know the neighbors sent in a letter. They're
concerned about their properly values going down, and a realtor
had said if you back up to a commercial site, your property
values could go down by 10 percent. This piece of property, as
everybody knows, is zoned G2, Commercial. It's been zoned
C-2, Commercial, for 50 years. Each one of these neighbors
has moved there well after this was zoned commercial, so I
think they've already gotten the benefit of that. But also, what
we're going to do is take this site that's currently an eyesore;
that's currenfly a contaminated site. We want to turn this site
into a project that the City of Livonia would be really proud of
and we'll be proud of. We're going to be adding value to the city
by creating jobs, creating a tax base, and turning an eyesore
piece of property into a beautiful project. I appreciate your time
this evening. I'd be more than happy to answer any questions.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any questions for the pefifioner?
December 12, 2006
23773
Mr. La Pine: If I could ask you one question. When you were looking for
sites in Livonia, I've never been in favor of this project because I
think we have enough, you know, dealerships along Plymouth
Road as is. But I'd probably be more apt to approve it if it was
on the north side of Plymouth Road where @ abuts
manufacturing M1 zoning. My question to you, we have an
empty site that used to be an auto dealership, an Oldsmobile
dealership, up the road. Did you ever look at that site and think
of the possibility of building there, which wouldn't affect any
neighbors, wouldn't affect anybody along that area?
Mr. Zeigler: Yes. We not only looked at that site, but we looked at close to
20 sites up and down the road. We looked at everything that
was available, and the problem that you have, and we've got the
Vice President of J. D. Byrider here this evening, he's going to
explain to you that we're very different from any of the
Oldsmobile dealerships or Ford dealerships that are out there.
Our business model is completely different from them. We are
not in competition with them, nor are they in competition with us.
Our buildings are very different from what a typical dealership
would be. A typical dealership is going to have a big showroom
where you come in and you have cars parked inside. Our
building is an office building upfront, and you're going to walk in
and we're going to have offices. Its set up more like a bank
than it is a car dealership because we're running a financial
company out of here, and the product that we happen to sell
happens to be cars. So this was the only suitable site that we
were able to find.
Mr. LaPine: Well, lel me interrupt you. I dont understand what you're talking
about. You could build any type of building that you want on
that location. You could pick the model you're going to build on
this location and just move it to that location. You dont have to
make it look an automobile dealership, like a normal automobile
dealership like you just explained. You could build the same
building at that location that you want to build here. It would be
no different. It might be a larger parcel, no doubt about it, but
the fact remains you wouldn't have any restrictions as far as
how you build the building, as long as you meet our building
codes and everything.
Mr. Zeigler: That's a great point. That's another area where we differ greatly
from a traditional new car dealership. Our new car stores are
set on 10 and 12 acres of properly. This model is only set up to
occupy two acres, which is what this site is, so we cant go in
and efficiently operate in something that's that big. It wouldn't
make any business sense for us. We couldn't come anywhere
near affording to buy that size of a piece of property.
December 12, 2006
23774
Mr. La Pine:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Morrow:
I think you mentioned that when you're not there, there will be
no lighting. Does that mean you'll have no security lighting?
Mr. Zeigler:
The only lighting that we'll have is security lighting that's
required by law. Other than that, everything else is going to
shutdown.
Mr. Morrow:
Is that primarily around the buildings?
Mr. Zeigler:
Correct. There's going to very, very low levels of lighting. But
even when the lights are on, there will be no light shining on the
neighbors' properly. We have a pholomelrics that our engineer
is going to go through with you that's going to show there will be
no light shining from our property. We're still going to tum the
lights off when we're not in business, other than security
lighting.
Mr. Morrow:
Okay. Would you refresh my memory on the south parking lot
behind your building? What is the activity that goes on there?
Is that mainly storage and employee parking?
Mr. Zeigler:
That's exactly what it is. We have employee parking spots back
there. It's a fenced in area so he only way to get in there is
basically to have a key to gel in there. So our employee parking
will be back there and it will be a storage lock for our vehicles.
Mr. Morrow:
So most of the activity will occur off of Plymouth Road?
Mr. Zeigler:
That is correct. Almost all of the activity will be in front of the
building.
Mr. Morrow:
Okay. Mark, could I see the landscape plan, please? Now you
had indicated that you would increase the greenbelt from 20 to
30 feel?
Mr. Zeigler:
That is correct.
Mr. Morrow:
And I notice you placed the trees, the evergreens, if I'm reading
this right, in front of the greenbelt?
Mr. Zeigler:
That's how they're placed right now, and the only reason that
we've done it this way, because I asked the same question
myself when they came back to me on this, is that right now we
know that there's room for the trees right there. As we go in,
one of things that the city asked us to do was clean out the
brush and stuff like that back there. Wherever we can possibly
Mr. Morrow: That will be thinned out and only the better ones will be
preserved.
Mr. Zeigler: Correct.
Mr. Morrow: And then once that's done, then you begin to augment the
plantings as it relates to your neighbors to the south.
Mr. Zeigler: Correct. And we fully intend to work with the neighbors and ask
them where they would like the trees.
Mr. Morrow: I think I have a grasp on it now. Thank you.
Mr. Zeigler: You're welcome.
December 12, 2006
23775
put a pine tree, we're going to put a pine tree. And if any one of
the neighbors come to us and says, hey I want one here, here,
here, we're going to put those pine trees where they want the
trees to be.
Mr. Morrow:
The reason I asked that, and maybe I'm not following you
comecfly, but I assume that the wall is there is the Iasi thing on
your site, the existing wall.
Mr. Zeigler:
Correct.
Mr. Morrow:
Normally, the wall is augmented right next to it with the trees,
and I'm just wondering why we have 30 feel of green space and
then the trees. See what ...
Mr. Zeigler:
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cul you off.
Mr. Morrow:
No, no, as long as you got the gist of what I'm asking.
Mr. Zeigler:
I got your question. It's a great question. If you see where the
darker green area is there, there's already a lot of trees that are
high trees, and in the package, there's a picture of what it looks
like. Okay. This is what its going to look like right now from
the neighbors' houses. What they did is anywhere where there
is a thinner area, they put the pine trees in, but if they'd rather
see them right back up against the wall, we'd be more than
happy to put them there. We're completely flexible on where we
put the trees and how many trees we put there.
Mr. Morrow:
Okay, if I'm following you properly, that one space that I'm
looking at, the lawn area, is actually the preexisting trees.
Mr. Zeigler:
Correct.
Mr. Morrow: That will be thinned out and only the better ones will be
preserved.
Mr. Zeigler: Correct.
Mr. Morrow: And then once that's done, then you begin to augment the
plantings as it relates to your neighbors to the south.
Mr. Zeigler: Correct. And we fully intend to work with the neighbors and ask
them where they would like the trees.
Mr. Morrow: I think I have a grasp on it now. Thank you.
Mr. Zeigler: You're welcome.
December 12, 2006
23776
Mr. LaPine:
In your latest presentation, the lifts you were going to have in
the building, originally you were going to have 18. Is that
correct?
Mr. Zeigler:
No, that's not correct.
Mr. LaPine:
It says, original plan, the neighbors were concerned that there
are 18 service bays in the shop, and then the new plan says it
only includes 9 bays in the shop.
Mr. Zeigler:
The original plan actually ... I know it's a little confusing the
way that was written. The original plan that we submitted only
Mr. Zeigler:
had 9 bays in the shop. The neighbors last time came up here
and said that we were going to 18 bays. We never planned on
having 18 bays. We only planned on having 9 bays. They were
saying that you could put two cars in one bay, which is
impossible. You can only have one car. It's like a parking spot
inside the building basically and you have one car per spot.
Mr. LaPine:
Now, here again, I think we brought this up at the last meeting.
The overhead doors, you staled, would be closed in the
summertime so there would be no chance of noise.
Mr. Zeigler:
Yes. The...
Mr. LaPine:
Lel me finish. We mentioned the fact is that going to be air
conditioned in there, and I think you responded by saying, no, it
won't be air conditioned. Well, it seems to me when you're
working inside in the summer, if it gets hot enough, they're
going to open those overhead doors.
Mr. Zeigler:
Actually, its impossible for them to do that. One of the things
that we do in our shops is we dont put air condifioning, but we
have big fans in there that keeps the air circulating inside.
We've been in business for 25 years and we've never had a
shop with air condifioning, and our shops are set up so what's
going to happen, is a car is going to go up to the door, there's
an electronic eye, the door goes up. As the car pulls in, there's
another electronic eye and the door shuts behind them. A
technician, service manager, anybody at the dealership isn't
going to be able to go manually open those doors unless it's an
emergency situation. They're going to have to do that by hand.
But there's going to be no way for them to push a button and
keep the door locked up because they're going to go up and
then right back down.
December 12, 2006
23777
Mr. LaPine:
To respond on that point, isn't that a safety issue? Let's
assume you had a fire or something inside the dealership. How
would the guys open those overhead doors? They'd have to
run outside. If they don't have a button, they've got to start
cranking it up. It lakes time.
Mr. Zeigler:
Just like say you had a fire at your house, and you wanted to
run out your garage door, and the door wouldn't go up, same
thing. You pull a safely lever and you just lift it up. It's basically
just like the door that's going to be there is just like a garage
door would be at a house.
Mr. LaPine:
Okay. That answers one of my questions. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Refresh my memory, Mr. Zeigler, as to what type of work is
going to be done in your service bays.
Mr. Zeigler:
Light maintenance, oil changes, tire rotations, things of that
nature. We don't gel into doing transmissions and stuff like that.
Mr. Wilshaw:
No painting?
Mr. Zeigler:
No painting, no. There will be no body shop. No painfing
whatsoever onsite.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. LaPine:
I do have another question. You mentioned to us the Iasi time
we discussed this that people, when they need service on their
vehicles, they have to bring it back to the dealership. Is that
right?
Mr. Zeigler:
They dont have to, but the only people that can bring service to
us are our own customer base.
Mr. LaPine:
So if they want to go somewhere else to have their oil changed,
tires rotated, they can go to another location?
Mr. Zeigler:
That is correct, but they typically don't do that because we do
those types of services at no charge for our customers.
Mr. LaPine:
So if they needed a new set of tires or something, they wouldn't
have to purchase from you. They could purchase tem from
Sears, Kmarl, wherever they wanted.
December 12, 2006
23778
Mr. Zeigler:
Absolutely. And when it comes to tires, quite often they would
purchase them somewhere else. We don't really deal with tires
much.
Mr. La Pine:
Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw:
I was doing a little research on J. D. Bynder and I noticed that
there used to be, I believe, a location on Telegraph Road in
Taylor that I do not think is currently a J. D. Bynder. Am I
correct in that assumption?
Mr. Zeigler:
I believe that's correct. I do have the Vice President from J. D.
Synder here this evening, and he could certainly shed some
light on that. It's before my time.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Was that a facility that your auto group owned?
Mr. Zeigler:
No. Absolutely not.
Mr.Wilshaw:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions? Okay, thank you, Mr.
Zeigler. Al this point we're going to open the floor to any
member of our audience that would like to speak for or against
this petition item. Please come forward. I do request that you
give us your name and address, and we are keeping our review
tonight to the new plan and new items. Good evening.
Bill Ackerman:
Good evening. Thanks for the opportunity. I am Vice President
of Franchise Operations for J. D. Bynder systems.
Mr. Walsh:
Sir, I'm going to interrupt you. The petitioner had the chance to
speak, but now we're at the public hearing portion. So we're
going to go to the audience. Thank you. The petitioner does
have the right to speak at the end. Okay. I thought he was
done. You didn't tell me you were going to speak so we went to
the public.
Sandra Rosenberger, 35810 Elmira. Good evening. I'd like to address what Mr.
Zeigler said about the Commission meeting on November 14 -
how he met immediately afterward in the hallway out here. I
gave him my businesscard, my home phone number to call me.
I didn't receive any phone call from him at that time or within the
next two weeks. He stated that the letter went out the very next
day notifying us of the upcoming meeting at the Days Inn after
Thanksgiving. We, neighbors, received the letter Thanksgiving
Eve. Three p.m. is when I got it on Wednesday, nghl before the
holiday. Some of our neighbors teed to call the number
December 12, 2006
23779
immediately that was on the letter. They were closed for the
holiday. We had five days in which to rearrange our lives in
which to meet with Mr. Zeigler. I was out of town for len days.
A lot of the other neighbors were either gone on vacation or
could not attend the meeting because it was at 5:30 in the
afternoon and they had had a holiday weekend. They could not
get time off to go to this meeting. Two of our neighbors showed
up at the meeting. That's all that could make. I think that was
really rude. Ordinarily you give people two weeks notice in
which to rearrange their lives for a meeting. That's just
considerate. I did not receive more than one registered letter
from Mr. Zeigler. He said that he sent out three. I only received
one and that was on Thanksgiving evening notifying me of the
meeting that he was going to have. As far as flooding goes, he
can promise me the moon. I don't believe it. He said that
there's vagrants on the property. The city came out last week,
my neighbor and he, the man from the city went out and
checked. There's no vagrants back there. There s no nothing.
No beer bottles. No liquor bottles. No proof of anyone living
back there. That's just a nice rumor. It makes it look bad. One
of the things that Mr. Scheid said that made his company
special - why we should consider this dealership for this area -
was that they do their own financing. Nobody else does in the
area. That's not true. New Car Alternative, 34715 Plymouth
Road, bad credit, new car. You loo can drive a new car. They
do their own financing there. We dont need another one here.
The tree line is already thin behind our back wall. Mr. Zeigler
mentioned that he would have to thin it even more. You saw a
picture on the 14" of how straggly everything looks. That's
going to be thinned out even more. We won't have any tree line
at all. Today I walked up and down Elmim and part of Leon. I
couldn't walk any further. I'm handicapped. Every home that I
went to where there were people home, okay? I knocked on
every door. Some people were at work. They were not there.
Everyone that was home I spoke to about this variance. They
all signed a petition staling absolutely no. Every person I talked
to said no. There was one person who did not sign the petition
and she stated that she just doesn't sign petitions for any
reason, and that's her right to do so. Every other person that I
spoke to about this signed this petition. I'd like to give this to
you. And there's one couple that is directly affected by this
variance petition who is out of state. The couple is in Las Vegas
and they sent a letter staling that absolutely not. They do not
want this variance. So for the record, I can honestly say no
neighbor in this neighborhood wants this variance. Thank you.
Martin Rubin, 35680 Elmim. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We do not
want the variance. We did not get appropriate notification
December 12, 2006
237W
timewise. The best example is of yesterday. FedEx came to
the house yesterday giving me the letter of the 5' telling me to
be here today. That's only a day. There's been that type of
information missing from them. There's another group of
issues, but the neighbors are going to address them individually.
We basically don't want that business used on that property at
this time. The lax base would be better served by a better type
of building and a better type of business. Thank you. Have a
good evening.
Mary Jo Bushart, 35850 Elmira. I was the second person that gave my
information immediately following the meeting that we had in
November. I gave my name, my phone number to one of the
gentlemen from the Zeigler Group. I loo received my letter
dated 12/5; it was delivered via DHL Services. I received it
yesterday at 5 p.m. when I returned home from work. My home,
the backyard, will be directly affected bylhis project. And I can
see through my children's bedroom windows exactly what
happens behind that wall. Obviously if we thought there were
homeless people there, we would have taken care of that
before. Its extremely disturbing that these types of rumors and
things have to be brought up in an effort to gel their project
approved. We haven't received any report of any kind of
abeslos or any other problems with that properly. That would be
something we'd like to see. They staled that we already reaped
the benefits of our properly values increasing based on the
commercial property being back there. I've lived at my house
for four years. I have not received any benefits, and because of
the economy, I probably have lost money on my house. And I
know that's the same situation for all of my neighbors that live
along side of me. Thanks.
Julianna Hodge, 35863 Elmira. Court. I am also adding my voice to those of my
neighbors. I'm against this variance. I also received one letter
only from the Zeigler Group. And I think that the inaccuracies
that are being talked about tonight really have created a trust
issue in terms of what they're promising us. I just don't believe
they're going to deliver on what they're promising us based on
the inaccuracies that we're hearing. Thanks.
David Cox, 35851 Elmira. Just a clarification on the letter that Mr. Zeigler said
was sent on the 15P of November, right the day after our last
meeting here. Actually, it was dated November 21" and we
received it on the 22n0. It gave us insufficient time to even think
about rearranging our schedules to meet with them. And when
we did RSVP that we would not attend, we respectfully
requested that they reschedule it. And with six people actually .
.. Mr. Zeigler himself said that ... six people RSVP'd that they
December 12, 2006
23781
couldn't attend, three said that they could, and 20 -some did not
respond. I think what we're seeing tonight is that most of us
probably did not respond because we just don't want them
there.
Kathleen Cox, 35851 Elmira. Also, I'd like to make a note that we fled at City
Hall. There is the same letter from Tim and Ava Green dated
November 17, received by the Planning Commission November
17. But in essence, we did not get a letter written to us until
November 21sr, delivered November 220°, which everybody is
trying to celebrate, prepare for Thanksgiving. Yes, there is a
trust issue. It was brought to our attention one of our pictures
was incorrect. It was taken from the Kalamazoo, 2006, and if
they have actual pictures of these homes, so be it. We can only
go by what was out there, and the aerial shot does not show
any homes. Okay? And Tim and Ava Green, when they sent
the letter to Zeigler Auto Company, it had a fax name of
Draperies on Wheels. Now, who is Draperies on Wheels?
They dont, we can almost attest to but cannot, but if you look in
the yellow pages in Kalamazoo, Draperies on Wheels resides at
West Court Street. Do they even live there? Honesty has to be
brought forth at the very beginning of any type of relationship
from day one, and if that day one that relationship you dont feel
that, and I'm thankful for one of the members going out and
bringing up J.D. Synder. I'm sure the rest of you have loo.
We've been told to keep to the issue of the site plan. I oppose
the site plan. There was a comment that the people want to sell
the land. Well, our homes are our assets. These homes were
not given to us. We have worked hard to come to Livonia. We
have sacrificed and if you know the economy the way it is now,
and all the UAW buyouts at Ford and everything else, we have
concerns also. We the people for Livonia have always been
there. We do not have children, but we vole for every millage
for our neighbor's children. All we want to do is be heard. All
we want to do is be truthful, and if we can't lake the first letter
truthfully, how can we lake anything? And if you say you can't,
you know, bring up the fact you can't go out there and look and
see about...
Mr. Walsh: Okay, ma'am, I'm going to bring you back to the site plan.
Ms. Cox: Okay. I'm going to say one thing. If you go out to ebay and
you're going to buy something, you're going to check. So I don't
think its wrong as a citizen and paying taxes to say that we
cant do that and don't have a concern. These people that don't
live close ...
Ms. Cox: We have been very sincere in our package and I don't want it to
pass. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: There is a young gentleman right behind you there.
Richard Busharl, 35850 Elmira. Good evening. Last night after a hard day's
work and putting the kids to bed, I had enough energy to put
together a nice email. Unfortunately, I didn't know everybody's
email address, so I dont know if it actually got to you, so I'm just
going to read it.
Mr. Taormina: The Commissioners did receive R. I received it and they should
have a copy of it.
Mr. Walsh: You're welcome to read it tonight.
December 12, 2006
23782
Mr. Walsh:
Ma'am, we're not saying you can't have a concern. Our body
has no authority whatsoever to address that. So we're going to
move on to the site plan. There are other people wishing b
speak.
Ms. Cox:
Okay. You can't say ... can I ask a fair question?
Mr. Walsh:
You can ask a question but if it's not about the site plan, we're
going to the next person.
Ms. Cox:
Itis about the site plan.
Mr. Walsh:
Okay.
Ms. Cox:
I'd like to see the picture they gave that there's six houses
behind there and it's not a 218 feet differential where our homes
are 20 feel. That's a lot of differential.
Mr. Walsh:
It would be up to the pefitioners. It's their properly. Mark, is that
public record or what is it?
Mr. Taormina:
Are you talking about this picture right here? I don't see where
it's a problem if you want to look at d. Sure.
Ms. Cox:
Because all of us with the aerial shot we both confirmed it, so I
just want Planning to know and honesty. We brought forth what
we thought was actually out there because we look it off the
internet.
Mr. Walsh:
We understand.
Ms. Cox: We have been very sincere in our package and I don't want it to
pass. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: There is a young gentleman right behind you there.
Richard Busharl, 35850 Elmira. Good evening. Last night after a hard day's
work and putting the kids to bed, I had enough energy to put
together a nice email. Unfortunately, I didn't know everybody's
email address, so I dont know if it actually got to you, so I'm just
going to read it.
Mr. Taormina: The Commissioners did receive R. I received it and they should
have a copy of it.
Mr. Walsh: You're welcome to read it tonight.
December 12, 2006
23783
Mr. Bushart: My name is Richard Bushart and my family lives at 35850
Elmira in Livonia. This email pertains to the proposal that
Harold Zeigler will present to the Planning Commission tonight.
We moved to Livonia in 2002 mostly because it's common
knowledge that Livonia is the best place to raise a family in
southeast Michigan. My wife was raised in Livonia, and we live
here with our two kids. In 2005, our family had a life -changing
event. It will alter the way we view things for the remainder of
our life. On August 12 of 2005, I had to have brain surgery.
Mr. Walsh: Sir, I mean you no disrespect whatsoever, but I really need you
to concentrate on the site plan issues that are before us. Okay?
We have received this. We really need you tonight to
concentrate on the site plan issues.
Mr. Bushart: Okay. They said the lighting situation has changed. Now, to
me, it's a concern. Our wall is right there and there's going to
be a dealership with many cars. Many of you know, when
there s cars there's people that are going to want to steal the
cars so there has to be some kind of lighting. I understand their
new proposal to cul down the lighting, but there's a balance. So
I'm worried about strangers being in my backyard and my
daughter not being able to handle that. I was down the street
on Plymouth. There's a Belle Tire. I was curious. I went
behind their little wall there to see if I could hear anything
myself. There's some pine trees there. The loudest noise I
heard, which hasn't been addressed and there's no way to solve
it, the people that work there pulling the cars around blaring the
radio. That was by far the loudest noise. I stood there for about
10 minutes and it just kept happening. So I dont see why that
would change. Just to reiterate what they said is, from the very
beginning there was just never a trust factor. Although anything
and everything they brought up so far is being twisted for their
favor. Dont gel me wrong. I'm a proponent of capitalism but it
has to be fair, honest. It's just not happening. That space can
be used productively for a great city. I dont think that's going to
do us justice. Thank you.
Donna Paul, 35839 Elmira. I just want to say that I oppose the variance. I just
do not feel its a good thing for our neighborhood all the way
around. Thank you.
Ken Morgan, 35838 Elmira. Last week when the city inspector came to check on
the vagrants, the homeless, the whatever all was said, he came
to me because we're familiar with each other. He asked me if
he could have access to the backyard. I said, sure, not a
problem. His statement was, we had an anonymous complaint
of homeless, vagrants, trash, pretty much word for word what
December 12, 2006
23784
these gentlemen have said. An anonymous complaint - I guess
I don't understand how they got word of it when I was the only
one home. Talked to all the neighbors, everybody knew up and
down the street, nobody made that complaint. It seems like
game playing trying to manipulate or try to create a situation that
they're going to improve for us. That type of establishment, that
type of business, the morals, the ethics, I'm not gang to
question it. I'm not going to slam it. That's what the inlemet is
for. I can gel all that information on my own. If theyre going to
play that kind of game, that's not the kind of neighbors Iwant.
All of us neighbors have pulled together. All of us have talked.
None of us have been given a sufficient amount of time to even
get together and talk with each other about what we want to do.
Before the holiday, I came in to get minutes from the meetings.
At that time, I was told that they had already scheduled this
meeting. We didn't know about this meeting until a few days
back. They're playing the time game. They're playing us
against each other. That's not the kind of neighbors I want. I'm
very opposed to it as is everybody I talked to. Thanks.
Donald Paul, 35839 Elmira. I also RSVP'd that I would not be able to make R.
All I got was an answering machine. I staled at that time that I
thought it would be more beneficial to everybodyand all parties
concerned if we could gel together possibly after the first of year
when the all the holidays were not interfering with our family
lives as well, not known to me that this meeting was already
going to be set up on the 12"'. 1 can understand why they want
to push it through. And they say they had their meeting with two
or three people out of the whole area. Well, I don't think that
really constitutes a whole neighborhood. We were willing to
work, but we need a little better time. A lot of people don't gel
home unfil 5 - 5:30 in the evening. So lel that be said. I did
RSVP and told them I couldn't make it but I'd be available at a
later time, possibly after the holidays, which would be better for
everybody. Also, I'd like to put a question to Mr. Zeigler. He
says all he's going to do in his service garage is rotate tires and
change oil. Why would they need nine bays to do that? I mean
quick change oil places rotate tires and everything with a
maximum of two to three bays in a building probably the size of
my house. I just dont think that's the right type of business we
need in the neighborhood, and I believe that New Car
Alternatives down the road about seven -tenths of a mile, is the
same operation that they are operating. So why do we need
two of them in the neighborhood? That's all I have. Thank you
for your time.
Robert Oppenlander, 35824 Elmira. I was one of the people that had called
when I had this notice about the meeting at 5:30 right near
December 12, 2006
23785
Thanksgiving when there is so much going on and with the
holidays. There seems to be some kind of manipulation. I don't
sit down to eat until 5:30 or even a little bit later by the time my
grandkids get home from school. And they don't go to school
nearby. They go to school where my son works in Dearborn.
So this presents a problem. Well, we did talk, went through
things, mentioned they'd even lower the lights down to 12 feel.
Now, I hear 16 feel. Well, I don't know. I have also a problem
with security and I have a problem with the noise. Whether the
doors go up and down right away, there's going to be ratcheting
for working on fires and other items. I'm really not in favor with
the company dealing with selling automobiles when we have so
many new car dealerships with loads of used cars on their lots,
as well as one doing it's own financing. So it seems like at 5:30,
going back to this time element, most meetings start at 7:00. 1
can hardly see 5:30 when you realize that traffic is boggled up
on roadways and people dont get home until later on. Anyway,
thank you.
Ms. Cox: I'll only be up here for a second. I want to thank you for letting
me see this. I feel good on one respect. We used the same
site and the only thing that we were on luck on, and I'm still not
qualifying, is the fad that they show their address as 3227 West
Ledge Street. And if you lake a look at the plan we had, that's
exactly where we placed it. They were not placed on West
Cork. That land does not show anything out there, so we're
going by the street address. So what we gave to you, we
personally thoroughly thought it was correct. Thankyou.
Steven Druc, 35625 Elmira. The last time I was at this podium I posed the
question to the members here: Is this a good business at this
location for the City of Livonia? I think the citizens have spoken
this evening and the neighbors surrounding this business, that
we do not feel at this time that a variance should be allowed for
this type of business in our neighborhood. Mr. LaPine, you
asked the petitioner why he didn't consider a larger parcel of
property, such as the one where the old Oldsmobile dealership
was on Plymouth Road. He staled that it didn't ft into his
business plan. Obviously, it didn't fit into the business plan from
the standpoint of I would say profitability. If I was selling used
cars in the City of Livonia at this time, I would want to have as
many used cars on display as possible. If I'm going to go out
and look for a used car, I'm going to go to the dealership or the
spot that has the highest amount of used cars for me to choose
from. I also understand that the petitioners put a non-
refundable deposit down for this parcel of property. They must
have been very confident at the time that the variance that they
are requesting would be granted for this business on this
December 12, 2006
23786
properly. My final comment to you is, the citizens and
neighbors of Livonia have spoken regarding the variance. We
respectfully request that the variance be denied. Thank you for
your time this evening.
Phil Kanapimki, 8535 Eaton Road. It's a way from here up in Davisburg,
Michigan. I have an opposing viewpoint, one of the few it
appears. However, I've been active in various commercial and
induslnal as well as office real estate for 22 years. I've been
very active within the Livonia area. And I would commend the
City, as well as John Nagy, and their vision in recreating the
streetscape here on Plymouth Road. I think that the
improvements will continue to revitalize this area with new and
diverse businesses, which we sorely need, as opposed to the
automotive oriented, pure automotive manufacturing widget -
producing type of companies that seem to be exiling the
community. The business use, the site plan itself, proposed by
Zeigler Automotive Group at this site is consistent with the
neighboring uses on both sides. There's automotive related
uses, and they also abut the same residential community. From
what I have heard and seen from the operators of this business,
they've gone beyond their basic specifications as it relates to
the building and the site plan improvements, as well as their
own design changes out of respect, and I do believe it is
respect, for the adjacent residential community. Therefore, I am
in favor of this business use at this proposed location. Thank
you.
Glen Plavins, Hitch House, 35655 Plymouth Road I own the company located
just east of the proposed building, the Hitch House. I'm the one
that started the rumor about the homeless people. About two
years ago in the wintertime, we had a vagrant in and out, in and
out, and we watched the Livonia Police arrest him in front of our
property, only to return a little while longer. He would usually
only come around closing time and sneak back into there. I can
neither confnn nor deny support. I just know that sooner or
later there's going to be a business next to our property and I
would welcome that. What is currently there is an eyesore. I
don't know how you could argue its not an eyesore. We've
talked to the ordinance officer, Steve Banko, the ordinance
officer in charge of our jurisdiction. I know him on a personal
level in terms of him coming into our establishment trying to
figure out what to do, contacting the owners, trying to gel that
piece of property cleaned up. The cunent owners of the
property have not cleaned it up. Its a huge eyesore. There's a
semi -trailer abandoned behind the property, the dilapidated
building, I have no idea. I've inspected it and walked the
grounds. You can walk on it and see. No, there's not liquor
December 12, 2006
23787
bottles or anything like that around there, but it's not a rumor.
Last winter we did not see anybody. This was two winters ago.
What I'd really like to see, I realize sooner or later it's going to
be developed. And a company that comes in that's going to put
up a 30 -foot greenbelt to appease the neighbors is probably
more sufficient or overkill compared to anybody else that's going
to come into that piece of property. Again, I cant sit there and
just rattle off and say that I'm, you know ... I pretty much
support the development of the property. I pretty much support
what they do. I haven't done any marketing analysis on
competition or anything like that, but I'd really love to see that
piece of property developed into something that is not an
eyesore. By looking at these pictures, this is far from an
eyesore. Right now we're stuck with an eyesore. Thank you.
John Fricke, One Town Square, Southfield, Michigan. I am a broker and
principal at Signature Associates, commercial real estate agent
and the agent of record on behalf of the seller and the current
owner of the property. Lena Cockrum is here with us this
evening silting back there. Her son is here, Joe. Lena Cockrum
is 75 years old. She and her late husband, Delmar, operated
the Cockrum's Markel for approximately 20 years, from about
1979 through his passing, around the year 2000. They certainly
provided a service to the community in terms of the marketplace
that they operated, obviously paid taxes since that lime until this
day. I can assure the Commission that this asset is going to be
the primary means of support throughout her retirement years,
and it truly is not an option for this property to continue in an
undeveloped, unproductive state any longer than is absolutely
necessary. I mean she needs it for her support. So I would just
like to go on the record and make that statement. Also, I'd like
to speak to the marketing of the property to support the last
gentleman's comments. The property is in a dilapidated state
and while in a redevelopment scenario that shouldn't
necessarily matter, it has had an impact on the marketing and
the attractiveness of the site along with the current market
conditions which we're in. Despite its good location on a
thriving road like Plymouth, I mean we all know what the state of
the economy is, and so we've been marketing this property for
about a year now. My assignment was actually about a year to
the date. Our company is the third real estate firm that has
been assigned this property. So die's been actively trying to
sell and find an acceptable use on this property, again to turn it
into living expenses. It's certainly not her intention to force
some undesirable site on the city, but I guess I can slate that
given other uses, other interests that we've had on the site, that
in my opinion Ithink given the extent that they've gone to buffer
the site, given the hours that they're indicating they're going to
December 12, 2006
23188
be operating, as compared to some other possible uses for the
site, you know, just to ratfle off a few that wouldn't even need a
waiver use: party stores, pawn shops, bakeries, other food
markets, pet stores, bowling alleys, pool halls, taxidermy. I
mean these are all permitted uses on the current zoning, and
frankly are going to be use segments that we will market to,
along with other uses that are permitted in the G2 district. I
would just slate that given the conditions of the market, given
the extent that the petitioner has gone to try to make sure this
site is as harmonious as possible with the neighborhood, I
would strongly encourage support of this proposal. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: Mr. Zeigler, you have the opportunity to address this again to
closeout the meeting. Is there somebody on your behalf?
Mr. Zeigler: Yes, we'd like three people to speak. I just want to briefly
address a point of fact. I did bang Bill Ackerman, Vice President
of J. D. Synder, just to clarify the J. D. Synder business model.
And then Harold would just like to close.
Mr. Walsh: I'll give you 10 mi nines. Can you do it in 10 minutes?
Daniel J. Scheid, Harold Zeigler Auto Group, 4201 Stadium Drive, Kalamazoo,
Michigan 49008. Good evening. We'll certainly attempt to try.
Real briefly, the neighbors brought up a lot of good points and I
respect their points, which is why we went to the lengths we did.
But I want to clarify the communications because there seems
to be some misunderstanding on what was communicated. As
Aaron Zeigler stated, immediately following this meeting we did
try to arrange a meeting with the neighbors back behind the
doors here. Two neighbors did give us their name and address,
but there were about 12 neighbors. We couldn't work with 12
neighbors, or we couldn't work with just 2 when there were 12
there. So we needed to wait until we got a response from the
city on the names and addresses. So we received those from
Mark and immediately when we received those, we did send
letters out to 32 names and addresses. This would be on
November 21. They received those packages on November 22
immediately after we received the names. Anybody that
communicated back with us, so anybody that left us a voice mail
but did not leave us a phone number, we sent a package
immediately back to them stating that we will work with you,
please communicate with us. If you leave us a phone number,
we can call you and work something out. We did not hear from
any of those individuals. So that is why a number of people said
I didn't receive a second package. Well, its because they never
communicated with us. Some neighbors did communicate with
us and left a phone number. In that case, we called every
December 12, 2006
23789
single one back. We have a call log. We showed 12 registered
calls, and I can share that log if it's pertinent to you. And then to
that point, a third package was sent on December 5r" to any
neighbor that had been in communication with us. So if some
neighbors claim they did not get three packages, that is correct
because if we did not get a communication back, we didn't have
the wherewithal to communicate with them. So any neighbor
that was communicating with us during the process, we sent a
letter on December 5r" as soon as we had understanding and
notice that we were going to be on the agenda tonight to stale
that we will be here, we plan to be here, we look forward to
sharing comments with the council and the neighbors. I want to
introduce Bill Ackerman, who will take just a few moments to
talk about J. D. Bynder.
Bill Ackerman: Thanks. I fell it was important to come up here and participate
in this just to maybe share briefly why J. D. Synder is quite a bit
different than a typical auto retailer. We've been around since
1979. We have 127 locations. We're in 30 states. We're
aggressively growing. The majority of our franchisees are new
car dealers or community business leaders in other
communities and walks of life, but they're very high integrity
business people in their own rights. The Detroit market was a
very appealing market for our company store developments. In
fact, we held back along with several markets like Kansas City,
Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, the State of California, and other
desired markets. When we came across the Zeigler
organization and shown how well they were operating their
businesses in Kalamazoo and Lansing, they came and
approached us about growing the Synder business, and we
discussed with them what we expected to come to Detroit. We
expect the same things that a company that the Planning
Commission here in Livonia would expect. And we did, in fact,
agree to license the greater Detroit market to them at a
substantial cost to the Zeigler group for those rights. Why we're
different is, we sell vehicles to customers that cannot go to
these dealerships that you're describing on Plymouth and get
the financing. Regardless of the advertising of alternative
financing and alternative this and that, the real facts are that
almost 50 percent of the American population cannot get
approved for new or late model used car financing because of
income, student loans, hospital bills, just a number of various
reasons. And our company is positioned to not sell 500 cars.
That's why we don't need a big facility with a lot of used cars.
We're selling the opportunity to own dependable, reliable
transportation, which is why we have service which is quite a bit
different than any other used car dealer because we have to
work on those cars. Our customers primarily are hard working
December 12, 2006
23790
people. They're citizens and taxpayers in Livonia, and they just
don't have the means. Most of them make less than $40,000 in
household income. So that to afford a car that's a quality car
that's been reconditioned, you know, to take care of those after
repairs and make timely payments, we have to have service to
take care of that. That's quite a capital expense. A typical
dealership needs a $5 million or $10 million investment by our
franchisees. So to come into Detroit is about a $50 million
investment by the Zeigler Auto Group. The last thing I want to
do is just point out a couple of the areas that we are opening in.
We intend to open in Detroit. We're opening our first door in
Chadotle, North Carolina. We opened in Germansville INC,
which is the Winston-Salem Greensboro market. We're going
into Kansas City next year. We already have properly Here.
We're going to Denver, Colorado; Fort Worth - Dallas area;
Pittsburgh; Sl. Petersburg; Nashville, TN; Dayton, Ohio; Long
Island, NY; and Savannah, GA, amongst others. These groups
are very similar to the Harold Zeigler Auto Group, and I would
strongly voice my support for this vadance to be approved.
Thank you.
Mr. La Pine:
Mr. Chairman, can I ask you a question, sir, before you go? I
notice one of your letters of January 23, 2006, where you gave
the rights to the Detroit market to J. D. Bydder. Is that correct?
Mr. Ackerman:
That's correct.
Mr. La Pine:
From January 26 to today, how many of these operations do
you have in the metropolitan Detroit area?
Mr. Ackerman:
We have zero at this time.
Mr. La Pine:
Is there a reason for that?
Mr. Ackerman:
We we're holding for company store development. We at one
time...
Mr. La Pine:
Say that again. I didn't catch that.
Mr. Ackerman:
We held the market. In other words, we weren't allowing
franchisees to come into it. We own and operate our own
stores as well. As a company, we own 13 locations. We fell, for
our group, we were going to reserve Detroit for our future
growth.
Mr. LaPine:
I understand. That's what the letter said, but I ....
Mr. Ackerman:
We released those dghts.
December 12, 2006
23191
Mr. LaPine: Okay. The question I have is, have you opened any of these
operations in the Metropolitan Detroit area or is that the first
one?
Mr. Ackerman: This would be the first one
Mr. Wilshaw:
Could you explain to me what the Telegraph location in Taylor
was then?
Mr. Ackerman:
Yes. It was a franchise. It was awhile back. They opened for
about a year and it was a new car dealer. The son who was
running it lost interest and wanted to race cars. They kept it
open as a retail establishment but they were, in fact, a defunct
franchise. They had a sign up for a long time, and we had to go
to them and go through the proper procedures to gel their sign
down, but it really wasn't a real operation. They got into it very
briefly and then they used it to just retail cars. They weren't
really selling to the same customers. They weren't financing it;
they weren't doing things that were typical of a J. D. Bynder
franchise.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Thank you.
Harold Zeigler:
I own the Auto Group and chairman and founder of the Group.
I'd like to thank, first off, the Planning Commission for the time
and all the things you've gone through to listen to this. There's
a few things that I would just like to clear up and correct, a
couple things that were maybe a little inaccurate. One thing that
was made, a statement that we have a nonrefundable deposit.
I'm not sure if that makes a difference or not. We've put a lot of
money into this. I think we can still get our money back from the
property owner. I don't want to mislead you and tell you we
can't. So there might be some misinterpretation on what we
have invested and whether we can gel that back. The other
thing I wanted to correct is somebody made a comment that we
only do a couple items on repair. We do a number of items on
repairing these cars. Its noljust changing tires and changing oil
or something like that. There's a number of things we take care
of. We put a warranty on these cars for these customers so that
they will keep running so they will pay for them. That's part of
our business model when we sell them these cars. We don't
look for high volume in these cars. We're not looking like a
typical used car dealership where we sell a lot of volume. We're
very selective in the people we put into our vehicles. We're
looking for good people. We're not looking for the bad people.
We're not looking for people that are troubled people, okay?
We're looking for people that for some reason something's gone
December 12, 2006
23792
wrong in their life; they've been out of work; they've had
disability. For some reason theyve got themselves in financial
trouble, they've overextended themselves. So we're looking for
that type of individual that we know is a good person, has a
good job, that we can put in a car. Our business model
depends on the size of the location, it's 30, to 50, to 75, possibly
as high as 100 used cars a month, max. We dont want to put
200, 300 cars on our books. That's not what we're looking for.
A lot of this is done through the internet. A lot of this is pre-
qualified before the people even come to us, and so what we're
trying to do, again, is we're very selective. We're looking for the
great people. We're not looking for bad people. We're loolang
for people who have had trouble in their life for some reason or
another that cant pay for their cars. The other thing that I really
apologize for is some of the communication. There's some
misinterpretation of communication on the notices sent and
whether we got phone calls or not. I was checking personally
myself. I have 500 employees. I do $300 million in sales a year.
I've sold 150,000 cars. I serve over a million cars. I personally
have been very involved in this project to make sure that we're
doing everything right and to communicate with the neighbors
as much as we could. I've asked my secretary, I've asked Dan
Scheid our CFO, on numerous limes during the day. We were
there Tale on Thursday. We returned every single phone call.
As soon as somebody would gel to us, we tried to communicate
this project. We've also, through some of the neighbors who
said they represented all the other neighbors, came to us and
said they would have meetings. We have explained to these
people that, hey, if there's any communication that they want
another meeting before this meeting, we'll come down here. We
were in Detroit late last night. We're very flexible. This is our
priority. We would have been here communicating. I take a lot
of pride in the 30 plus years and my philosophy in business has
been to lake care of customers, give back to the community. I
do a lot of charity work. I've been on the Foundation Board of
Western Michigan University, a bank board. I take a lot of pude
in my integrity and I have a problem when somebody challenges
that trying to misinterpret the way we've done business. I have
a lot of pride in doing that. I dont need this project. I think it's a
great project. I think it's a great project for the Livonia area, and
I think that what you've seen in that building, the building is
going to look a lot nicer than the pictures up there. I was really
disappointed when I saw the pictures because the way I do my
building. If you saw the last one I was just building in Michigan
up by the mall, we jumped two zoning classes to get this
building done and the people love us. They didn't want us when
we first came there, but I think if the neighbors look for us and
find out that we're very open. We've gone back afterwards in
December 12, 2006
23793
some of our projects and we've gone back and put trees on their
yards. We've done all kinds of things they've asked us to do.
We are good neighbors. We're not the bad guy here. We're not
trying to be the bad guy. We want to lake care of the people.
We want to be very open and very honest. We've given our
direct lines out. I'll give anybody in here my direct line. They're
free to call me. I know the first one that spoke. We have eight
logs. I know we talked eight different times. We talked on the
way down to the meeting the night that we had the
neighborhood meeting on the phone. We had two phone calls
from her. I won't tell you I was threatened and a few other
things. I'm not a defensive type person, okay? Take the time
and find out who we are and what we're all about and how I run
my businesses and how I started with zero and what we have
today, and you'll really understand us and you'll approve this.
Mr. LaPine:
Can I ask a couple questions? I commend you for the fact that
you're trying to help the people who really have a rough time
buying a car and paying for it. I guess my question is, when
these people come in, you have to do a background check on
them if they're going to be able to afford the cars. Is this
correct?
Mr. Ackerman:
Absolutely.
Mr. LaPine:
So do you have a criteria where if they're not making a certain
amount of money or they're not in a job where they're going to
be able to make their payments every month on the car, you
tum those type of people down?
Mr. Ackerman:
We have an extremely sophisticated computer system, and that
is the one reason that we have teamed up with J. D. Bynder and
the franchise system. They spent millions of dollars on this
computer system to figure out whether this person can afford
this particular car or not. In fact, our model is, we don't have
people running all over the lot. When they come in, we sit them
down and we go through what they can afford. We look and
see if they smoke, if they drink. We do a complete analysis and
layout of whether they can afford this car, and then we put them
in the car that they can afford. We do not . its very
sophisticated, the computer system, and we pay a fee for that, a
monthly fee every month to the Synder system because they
have some great processes that we follow. We follow it exactly
by the book.
Mr. LaPine:
So all the financing is done through your organization. Is that
correct?
December 12, 2006
23794
Mr. Ackerman:
Correct. We are the bank.
Mr. LaPine:
Okay. And they send you a check or they pay ...
Mr. Ackerman:
Correct. In fact, a lot of it is direct debit.
Mr. LaPine:
Do you make them have direct deposit so you know you're
going to gel your money every month?
Mr. Ackerman:
We don't make them do that. We can't make them do that. I'd
have to ask Dan. Thirty-five percent of our people do do that,
and we like that.
Mr. LaPine:
Let me just ask one more question. What percentage of your
sales in this operation fall through and you have to repossess
the vehicles?
Mr. Ackerman:
One out of five.
Mr. LaPine:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Any addifional questions? Thank you, Mr. Zeigler. If there are
no further comments or questions, a motion would be in order at
this point.
On a motion by LaPine, seconded by McDermott, and unanimously adopted,
was
#12-131-2006
RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on November 14, 2006,
on Petition 2006-10-02-27 submitted by Harold Zeigler Auto
Group, on behalf of J. D. Bynder, Inc., requesting waiver use
approval to operate an auto dealership at 35841 Plymouth
Road, on property located on the south side of Plymouth Road
between Levan Road and Yale Avenue in the Northeast % of
Section 32, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend
to the City Council that Petition 2006-10-02-27 be denied for the
following reasons:
1. That the petitioner has failed to affirmatively show that the
proposed use is in compliance with all of the special and
general waiver use standards and requirements as set
forth in Sections 11.03 and 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance
#543;
2. That the City is wrrenlly well served with similar uses to
that which is being proposed;
December 12, 2006
23795
3. That the petitioner has failed to demonstrate the need in
the area for the type of commercial service proposed to be
operated on the subject site;
4. That the petfioner has not sufficiently demonstrated that
the proposed use would be compatible to and in harmony
with surrounding uses in the area;
5. That the petitioner has failed to adequately demonstrate
that the site has the capacity to accommodate the
proposed use; and
6. That the proposed use is contrary to the goals and
objectives of the Zoning Ordinance which, among other
things, are intended to insure suitability and
appropriateness of uses.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there any discussion?
Mr. LaPine:
Yes, Mr. Chairman. I have to commend the petitioner for all the
work he's done. I think he's done a terrific job trying to gel the
neighbors to agree with his philosophy and everything. But the
bottom line for me, since the day one I heard this case was
coming before us, do we need any additional automotive
dealerships on Plymouth Road? In my opinion, we do not. The
object of the Planning Commission is to look at the overall city
and what we need is not additional automobile dealerships. We
need other types of business to diversify from the automobile
industry. I feel bad that I'm denying this based on the property.
The property is in terrible shape, no question about it. Anything
that they do to clean up that properly and put something on it is
going to be an asset to the neighborhood and to that area. I just
feel that at this time I cannot go along with another dealership
on the Plymouth Road corridor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. McDermott
I'd just like to say pretty much the same thing as Mr. LaPine. I
really would like to see that developed and welcome business in
the city, but I just agree that it's not the right business at this
time. We have quite a few dealerships there and we really do
need to diversify.
Mr. Morrow:
I'm voting in favor of the pending resolution and my tad is a little
different. If it were a matter of just the G2 zoning, I would be
going in favor of it because they appear to meet all the
ordinances. There's a few things they would have to get
through the Zoning Board of Appeals, but my biggest concern is
because they are asking for a waiver use, that means they are
intensifying the impact of the neighborhood. And we've heard
December 12, 2006
23196
here tonight that if its not unanimous, it's almost universally
unanimous that the neighbors are not in favor of the impact that
this particular waiver would bring. And I share some of the
concerns of my other commissioners as it relates to being well
served in this particular area, but primarily it's the waiver of use
that impacts the surrounding area. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: I will be joining my colleagues in voting against this. I've been
long impressed by the business model and I mean that
sincerely, but I am with Mr. Morrow. The fact that you need a
waiver use is an indication it's an intensified use. For me to
support it, I needed to see more support from the neighbors and
R simply wasn't there. But I say this with mixed feelings ...
Unidentified audience member: Can I interrupt?
Mr. Walsh: No. Ma'am, the public hearing is closed. We've taken ...
Unidentified audience member: Inaudible.
Mr. Walsh: I understand that, Ma'am.
Unidentified audience member: Inaudible.
Mr. Walsh: Ma'am, I'm only going to tell you once, and I will have you
removed from this theater. I had the public hearing. You did
not come forward. I'm going to continue. For the neighbors, I
have mixed feelings about this. It's a waiver use and that's
where I hang my hal. It's an intensification of the use. The next
application that's going to come along, could be right in C-2 and
the people may be driving right up to that wall. You may not gel
30 feel or 20 feel. You may not get the trees. That's something
for you to think about and for the Zeigler Auto Group to think
about should they continue on to the Council for review. This is
a lough one. It's a very difficult one for me, but I will be voting in
support of the denial.
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. The petitioner has 10 days to appeal this decision to
the City Council.
December 12, 2006
23797
ITEM#5 APPROVAL OF MINUTES 9W Regular Meeting
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of the
Minutes of the 930 Regular Meeting held on October 17, 2006.
On a motion by Wilshaw, seconded by Smiley, and unanimously adopted, it was
#12-132-2006 RESOLVED, that the Minutes of 934" Regular Meeting held by
the Planning Commission on October 17, 2006, are hereby
approved.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Wilshaw, Smiley, LaPine, McDermott, Morrow,
Walsh
NAYS: None
ABSENT: Shane
ABSTAIN: None
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 936" Regular
Meeting held on December 12, 2006, was adjourned at 10:15 p.m.
CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
Carol A. Smiley, Secretary
ATTEST:
John Walsh, Chairman