HomeMy WebLinkAboutPLANNING MINUTES 1996-05-14 14876
MINUTES OF THE 724th REGULAR MEETING AND PUBLIC HEARINGS
HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF
LIVONIA
On Tuesday, May 14, 1996 the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its
724th Regular Meeting& Public Hearings in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center
Drive, Livonia, Michigan.
Mr. Jack Engebretson, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m., with
approximately 50 interested persons in the audience.
Members present: Jack Engebretson William LaPine Robert Alanskas
James C. McCann R. Lee Morrow Daniel Piercecchi
Patricia Blomberg
Messrs. John J. Nagy, Planning Director; H. G. Shane, Ass't. Planning Director; and Scott
Miller, Planner II, were also present.
Mr. Engebretson informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda involves a
rezoning request, this Commission only makes a recommendation to the City Council
who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and decide the question. If a petition
involves a waiver of use request and the request is denied, the petitioner has ten days in
which to appeal the decision to the City Council; otherwise the petition is terminated. The
Planning Commission holds the only public hearing on a preliminary plat and/or a vacating
petition. Planning Commission resolutions become effective seven days after the
resolutions are adopted. The Planning Commission has reviewed the petitions upon their
filing and have been furnished by the staff with approving and denying resolutions. The
Commission may use them or not use them depending upon the outcome of the hearing
tonight.
Mr. Engebretson: We are going to begin tonight with the pending items section of the
agenda. Would the Secretary please call the first item.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda is a request for extension
of Preliminary Plat approval for Pines of Winfield Subdivision proposed to be
located south of Seven Mile Road and east of Wayne Road in the Northwest 1/4 of
Section 9.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Nagy do we have a letter from Mr. Durso regarding this request?
Mr. Nagy: Yes we do. All he asks for is one year's extension. You may recall last
week he explained the reason orally to you as to why he was unable to
commence construction and why he now believes his finances are in
order.
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Mr. Engebretson: I just wanted to get it on the record that we did have a letter and when
we did have the study meeting we agreed that it was not necessary for
Mr. Durso to appear at tonight's meeting given the fact that this is a
very routine request and issue. With that I will ask for a motion.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Morrow, seconded by Mrs. Blomberg and unanimously
approved, it was
#5-70-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a request from Joseph P. Durso for a one-year
extension of approval of the Preliminary Plat for Pines of Winfield Subdivision
proposed to be located south of Seven Mile Road and east of Wayne Road in
the Northwest 1/4 of Section 9, the City Planning Commission does hereby
grant an extension for a period of one year from the date of this resolution
subject to the submittal of a landscape plan for required greenbelts and a
subdivision entrance marker plan to the Planning Commission for its approval
prior to the approval of the Final Plat for the following reasons:
1) That the petitioner has demonstrated valid reasons for not proceeding with
the Plat in a timely fashion.
2) That the Preliminary Plat represents a good solution to development of the
subject property in keeping with the character of the surrounding area.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-4-8-5 by
Building Design Associates, Inc. requesting approval for all plans required by
Section 18.58 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to
construct a gas station/convenience store on property located at 29231 Eight
Mile Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 1.
Mr. Engebretson: This issue was tabled at our April 30 Regular Meeting to allow each
member of the Commission to visit this site. I need a motion to remove
it from the table.
#5-71-96 RESOLVED that, Petition 96-4-8-5 by Building Design Associates, Inc.
requesting approval for all plans required by Section 18.58 of Zoning
Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to construct a gas
station/convenience store on property located at 29231 Eight Mile Road in
the Northwest 1/4 of Section 1, be taken from the table.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
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Mr. Engebretson: I don't know that we need to go to the petitioner unless we have
questions or comments from the staff or any member of the
Commission.
Mr. Morrow: I was not at the April 30 meeting. We are not going to get any
feedback from the petitioner?
Mr. Engebretson: We had the meeting Mr. Morrow and there was one issue that was
deemed to be very important and that was that the presentation showed
a very unusual color rendering departing in a very major way from the
standard Mobil color schemes, and each member of the Commission
wanted the opportunity to go out and visit that site. As far as the site
plan is concerned, they are basically proposing to take down the
existing convenience store, which was built several years ago, leave
everything else as it is, move that store, reconfigure it somewhat, make
it larger, and relocate it on the property. If you would like to see the
site plan.
Mr. Morrow: I don't need to see the site plan. The only question I had, I did go out
and look at the building both during the day and night, and it almost
looks like two different operations. It is almost like Mobile pump
islands and another operation running a convenience store. I was just
curious about that. That was the only comment I had.
�... Mr. Engebretson: As far as we know Mr. Morrow it is all run by Mobil but they are
giving a separate name to the convenience store, "On The Run"or
something like that, and that the Mobil operation is adopting this as
their new standard across the country and they have several either
approved or under way in various parts of the state. I do have a
question for the petitioner. Without objection, I would like to ask the
petitioner to come forward. I too had the opportunity to visit this
location both in the daytime and at nighttime and I must tell you in all
candor and being very direct, it was in my judgment the most gaudy
structure in the entire stretch from I-275 to Sheldon Road, and perhaps
that is your intent to draw attention to the fact that store is there. I
would like to ask you this question. If this site were to receive
approval, would Mobil be willing to make the commitment that if and
when they ever built another facility anywhere in the United States and
adopted colors other than what is being proposed, would you make a
commitment to not only give us notice that had taken place but give us
the option of adopting the same color scheme and redo this store in the
revised manner?
Petitioner: I fully expect that our color scheme will not change. However I feel
that is something we will be able to agree to.
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Mr. Engebretson: I am wondering, as we look at these corporate images around the
country,just to name a couple of places like Hilton Head or Boca
`‘..'' Raton or Palm Springs, etc., we figuratively see these corporate
identities altered substantially because those communities just won't go
along with some of these loud and garish, and I am not characterizing
your proposal as loud and garish, but it is pretty loud, they just aren't
allowed. So if you wanted to do business in some of those
communities, I have a feeling that this proposal would be met with
some resistance. The fact of the matter is we have approved some of
these situations because we had been under the impression that it is a
do or die situation, and then we go and visit one of these locations and
see the exact contradiction of what was presented. What is your
position with Mobil Oil? Do you have the authority to make the kind
of commitment that I am asking?
John Gephart: I am an area manager with Mobil Oil in the Detroit area representing
120 of our service stations. I feel we would be able to make that sort
of agreement with the City of Livonia to get this project approved,
understanding there may be other areas of the country where they
would have to take a look at this but it is fully Mobil's intention to go
with the new teal and yellow color scheme so that we can decouple the
service station mart from the gas islands and make the mart a point
destination for our customers. We really want to make it convenient, a
quick buying experience with value added products in the mart, and in
order to distinguish ourselves from our current Mobile marts, a new
color scheme was advised for this BFF franchise.
Mr. Engebretson: What does the BFF stand for?
Mr. Gephart: It stands for Business Format Franchise. We are going to be collecting
royalties from dealers and stations participating in this new franchise
that Mobil is putting on the table.
Mr. Engebretson: So this convenience store operation is not owned directly by Mobil?
Mr. Gephart: This particular location in Livonia is a company owned store.
Mr. Engebretson: But in many instances that is not the case?
Mr. Gephart: Yes.
Mr. Piercecchi: Mr. Chairman, are you indicating that because a store wishes to have a
new look and we find it has too much lighting and gaudy and not
complimentary and something that would be not an asset such as that
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store on Ann Arbor Road, we have to accept this just because they
decide to make it a national color. I agree with you, people come in
here and say this is the new image that we are trying to project and we
see differences all over the place. They are not consistent on it. Mr.
Chairman I don't think we should have to accept this design. It is
gaudy. If their object was to make it distinct from the gas station, they
certainly accomplished that because it does not compliment the gasoline
station. I don't think we have to accept this Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Piercecchi, don't interpret my comments and questions as
indicating any support at all of the proposal. It was a theoretical
question.
Mr. Morrow: That was my only comment if that was their intent to separate the two
operations, I think they succeeded.
Mrs. Blomberg: In my travels too I have seen corporate logos that are supposed to be
corporate and all around the country they don't have the same colors.
Even the yellow arches at McDonalds. I find this very distasteful.
Mr. Engebretson: Do you want to respond sir?
Mr. Gephart: We hope to be a good corporate partner with the City of Livonia. We
feel we have a very fine image today. We believe that the image we are
'ow proposing here is also an image that we can be proud of and the City of
Livonia can be proud of.
Mr. Engebretson: We agree that you have been a good corporate citizen at that location.
It is a major entrance to our City. We liked what you did there a
couple of years ago. Some of us are concerned about what you are
proposing to do.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Piercecchi and seconded by Mrs. Blomberg, it was
RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby determine to
table Petition 96-4-8-5 by Building Design Associates, Inc. on behalf of Mobil
Oil Corporation, requesting approval for all plans required by Section 18.58 of
Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to construct a gas
station/convenience store on property located at 29231 Eight Mile Road in the
Northwest 1/4 of Section 1 in order to get a new design.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Alanskas, Blomberg, Piercecchi
NAYS: LaPine, McCann, Morrow, Engebretson
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ABSENT: None
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion failed.
Mr. LaPine: The only reason I voted no, I don't understand what Mr. Piercecchi is
talking about. Are we are talking about a new design or just changing
the colors?
Mr. Piercecchi: That would be part of that it seems like.
Mr. LaPine: I have no objection as far as design of the building. We are only asking
for a color change. We are talking about the yellow and teal color,
asking them to change that to a different color. That doesn't change
the design of the building. We are only asking for a color change. That
I could have supported. By asking them for a new design, I don't see
anything wrong with the design. It is just the color combinations that
we found objectionable. Let me ask the gentlemen from Mobil Oil. I
am willing to make another tabling motion, and I think the consensus is
we don't like the yellow and teal. If we table this, can you come in
with a different color combination?
Mr. Gephart: We do have a second yellow color. It is a lighter shade of yellow.
Would the Commission consider that? We do have an example of that
here tonight.
New
Mr. Engebretson: We want to have an opportunity to study this. You wouldn't want to
consider something that is more compatible with that brick like a beige?
Mr. Gephart: We would propose tabling it, if possible, so we could consider the
options.
Mr. McCann: Mr. Chairman, I think we need further study. I was just going to say
based on that the internal lighting, it is a little bit of a problem for me. I
would recommend a tabling motion at this point just for one week to
the study meeting so we could study it a little bit more informally.
On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann, seconded by Mr. LaPine and unanimously
approved, it was
#5-72-96 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby determine to
table Petition 96-4-8-5 by Building Design Associates, Inc. requesting
approval for all plans required by Section 18.58 of Zoning Ordinance#543 in
connection with a proposal to construct a gas station/convenience store on
property located at 29231 Eight Mile Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section
1, until the study meeting of May 21,1996.
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Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-5-8-6 by
Midwest Guaranty Bank requesting approval for all plans required by Section
18.58 of Zoning Ordinance#543 in connection with a proposal to construct
an addition to the building located at 37601 Five Mile Road in the Northeast
1/4 of Section 19.
Mr. Miller: This site is located on the south side of Five Mile Road between
Newburgh and Blue Skies. It sits in front of the"The Village"
shopping center. There is a gas station on the corner of Newburgh and
Five Mile Road. It is adjacent to that gas station. They are proposing
to add a 624 sq. ft. addition to the front of their building. The addition
will be L-shaped and will square off the front of the building. Parking
for the site, they are required to have 22 spaces for the bank. They
have 57 on site plus they share some of the parking with the shopping
center so they meet the parking requirements. The new addition will be
constructed out of material that will match the existing building so once
it is completed it will look like it was all built at the same time.
Mr. Engebretson: Thank you Mr. Miller. Is the petitioner here?
Charles Ball, Midwest Guaranty Bank: Basically it is just what he just said. We are
requesting approval to add 11 foot onto the front of the building in the
form of an"L" and it will be all of the same material, same mansard,
etc. This office is really on the small size for what we want to do. As
most of you know, I was involved when this building was built in 1975
or 76 and it was never big enough. This will give us two offices and a
conference room.
Mr. LaPine: Mr. Ball, is there an ATM station there?
Mr. Ball: Yes, it is here at the side of the building.
Mr. LaPine: It is there now?
Mr. Ball: Originally it was inside this entrance way, which banks have tried to get
away from having people go in vestibules for ATM usage, and
Comerica, when they had this building had the ATM relocated to this
spot. Actually you can drive up to it.
Mr. LaPine: So people don't have to get out of the car. Is that correct?
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Mr. Ball: That is correct.
Mr. LaPine: Are you adding any additional landscaping?
r..
Mr. Ball: I can't answer that. From my own view I would have to say yes we
have to redo the landscaping. First of all, the landscaping that was in
there were grafted trees, and what happened the grafting failed. The
original trees were supposed to be this high. There is one of them still
left there but the other two, the grafting failed and the trees are no
longer there, and also those two trees would have been in the way of
the expansion.
Mr. LaPine: It is my understanding the only thing we are voting on tonight is the
addition and you are going to come back at a later date with the sign
package. We do have a sign package.
Mr. Engebretson: I don't really believe the sign package has to be part of this, does it
John?
Mr. Nagy: No but the petitioner was encouraged to bring that information in so he
wouldn't have to come back.
Mr. Engebretson: While your sign person is coming up, why don't you tell us when you
are going to move your operation into this facility.
Mr. Ball: We will be moving in Memorial Day weekend and will be opening the
Tuesday after Memorial Day. We will be opening on the 28th of May
at this new location and this addition will be done after that.
Mr. Engebrtson: Thank you Mr. Ball. We will ask your sign man to show us his work.
Michael Zachs from Sign-Text, here in Livonia: What we are proposing is a group of
conforming signs which we have discussed with the Building
Department. I will show you eight sheets which will show you the
typical ground sign, the building sign, both conforming, and some
directional signs on the property for ease of flow of traffic. The first
rendering is a 3' x 8' low profile ground sign that has a two-foot skirt
underneath it so the total rise is 16 inches from grade to the top of the
sign. It is 8 foot in length and the fascia area is 24 sq. ft. They are
allowed 30 sq. ft., which is allowed by the ordinance. It will be an
illuminated sign that has the Midwest Guaranty Bank signature, logo
and the ATM sign on the bottom indicating there is a 24 hour ATM on
the property.
Mr. Alanskas: Is that skirting wood or metal skirting?
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Mr. Zachs: We haven't determined at this time. It will probably either be brick to
match the building or the other alternative would be aluminum to match
`gamy the extrusion that formed the cap. This second rendering represents the
fascia band at the front of the building. It is 32 inches by, eventually it
will be 44 feet in length after the new addition. The letters are 18
inches in height and will span approximately 30 feet in length. The
total area for this signature is 43 sq. ft. They are allowed 44 sq. ft. by
the ordinance.
Mr. Engebretson: And that sign faces?
Mr. Zachs: This sign will be on the north side, on the Five Mile Road side. It will
be on the steel fascia band of the building. The next sign would be
mounted on the north side of the drive-up canopy and it will simply
state "Do Not Enter" because there is an entrance directly in front of
that drive-thru. This essentially will be a safety sign. It will be 9 inches
by 60 inches. It will have letters approximately 6 inches in height.
Again, no advertising just "Do Not Enter" so we don't have traffic
going both ways through the drive-thru. The next sign is
approximately 18 inches by 24 inches, total of approximately 3 square
feet. It would be on the south end of the canopy and it would indicate
that there is a 24 hour ATM machine access so the customers could
drive up to it and determine that the 24 hour ATM machine is at the
`�• drive-thru site. The next group of three signs represents what we
commonly refer to as directional signs. They are all 18 by 24 inches
dimensionally, 4 feet in height. They have no advertising on them.
They are simply directional signs to ease the flow of traffic on the
property. We do have a plan that shows where each of these numbered
signs go and we will submit that to you. Again, they are allowed by the
ordinance and there will probably be four of these signs on the property
to ease the traffic flow. This one indicates the entrance and the drive
up ATM on the east side of the building. The next one would be on the
east end of the property and would indicate where the entrance and
drive up ATM is. This would be at the south end of the property
indicating where the drive up ATM is. The next sign is 18 x 18 inches
and they are signs that will be placed around the property attempting to
reserve some of the space for bank parking stating simply"Reserved
Bank Parking Only"with a couple of arrows trying to define some of
the parking areas for bank employees and customers since they share
that lot with the shopping center directly behind it. That is the extent
of the sign package.
Mr. Alanskas: How are your handicap spaces marked?
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Mr. Zachs: We have two handicap spaces that will be installed. There will be one
on either side of the entrance.
`ow Mr. LaPine: The ground sign, are you having one or two? I think we discussed the
possibility of have two there.
Mr. Zachs: Just one sign. It will be double faced. It will be perpendicular to Five
Mile Road, a double faced sign.
Mr. LaPine: You have an entrance off Newburgh?
Mr. Zachs: We did discuss that with the Building Department and that would have
to be granted under a variance because that would be off site.
Mr. LaPine: It is my understanding you mentioned three possibilities for the lower
part of the freestanding sign. I would urge you, as one member, to use
brick instead of metal. It just makes a nicer looking sign, and I think in
the long run it will probably last longer. Are the signs green?
Mr. Zachs: This is off a jet printer and we attempted to duplicate the colors of the
bank. This is much lighter than they use. It is a teal blue.
Mr. LaPine: All the signs will be teal blue.
Mr. Zachs: The directional signs will all be what is duronatic bronze. It is a dark
bronze finish, the ones the rest of the banking industry typically uses for
directional signs.
Mr. LaPine: What is the lettering?
Mr. Zachs: The lettering would be white.
Mr. Morrow: The ground sign on Five Mile is that indicated on the plan where it will
be located?
Mr. Zachs: Yes it is.
Mr. Morrow: Does that Planning staff have that plan?
Mr. Zachs: I don't believe they have that plan but I will submit one.
Mr. Engebretson: Which signs, if any, will be illuminated?
Mr. Zachs: The sign which would be illuminated would be the ground sign which
would be typical 800 millennium fluorescent lighting to be operated
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with a timer that would be inside the building. It would be a dedicated
circuit for the sign, typically operated during the evening hours. Again,
the bank preferences to when the sign goes on and off.
Now
Mr. Engebretson: It is another way of saying internally illuminated?
Mr. Zachs: Yes. The other sign that is illuminated is the individual lettering on the
front of the building. These are typical neon channel letters. There is
neon inside of each letter that is operated by a transformer, again
operated on a circuit dedicated to that sign.
On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann, seconded by Mr. Alanskas and unanimously
approved, it was
#5-73-96 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby approve Petition
S6-5-8-6 by Midwest Guaranty Bank requesting approval for all plans required
by Section 18.58 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to
construct an addition to the building located at 37601 Five Mile Road in the
Northeast 1/4 of Section 19, subject to the following conditions:
1. That the Site Plan marked sheet 7 by Daniels and Zermack Associates, as
received by the Planning Commission on April 29, 1996, is hereby
approved and shall be adhered to;
`14.. 2. That the Building Elevation Plan marked sheet 9 by Daniels and Zermack
Associates, as received by the Planning Commission on April 29, 1996, is
hereby approved and shall be adhered to;
3. That the building materials of the new addition shall match the building
materials of the existing building so that upon completion the entire
structure will look like it was constructed at one time;
4. That the Sign Package by Midwest Guaranty Bank, as received by the
Planning Commission on May 14, 1996, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to.
5. That the monument sign base be matching brick.
6. That the illuminated sign shall be extinguished by 10:00 p.m.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-5-8-7 by
Mt. Hope Congregational Church requesting approval for all plans required by
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Section 18.58 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to
construct an addition to the church located at 30330 Schoolcraft Road in the
Southeast 1/4 of Section 23.
Mr. Miller: This site is located on the southeast corner of Schoolcraft and Henry
Ruff. Henry Ruff along the church property is in fact a paper street,
which means that the right-of-way is there but the street does not
actually exist. The new addition would be added to the west elevation
of the existing church. The new addition will be 3,195 sq. ft. Because
there is no fixed seating in this new addition, which would be a
fellowship hall, parking is not affected. Parking for the church, they are
required to have 100 spaces and they show on the plan that the parking
is met. The site also has a large wooded and grass area in the back and
also a large landscape area in the front. They are required to have 15%
total landscaping, and they have 71% so they far exceed the
landscaping requirement. The new addition will be constructed out of
material to match the existing building so when it is completely
constructed it should look like it was constructed at one time.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Miller, last week we understood there was a very small parking
deficiency that didn't raise any particular concern among the members
as I recall, but our concern was that they would have to go to the
Zoning Board of Appeals to get a variance if they were to proceed on
that basis. There was some discussion about decreasing the number of
parking spaces. As I look at the notes and listen to you, I see a
conflict. The notes indicate deficient parking and you indicated, I
believe that the parking requirements were met. What am I missing?
Mr. Miller: At first we based the parking on the fellowship hall being used in
conjunction with the church because the service area would be
expanded and seats would be included here. The petitioner said at the
study meeting that at no time would these two areas be used at the
same time. Based on that, there is no deficiency.
Mr. Engebretson: I recall that and that was a credible argument. I guess the only concern
I had was that it wasn't reflected in the notes, and I just literally took it
the way it was and this is just stale leftover information. That clarifies
that and I am satisfied. Would the petitioner please come forward.
Dan Graustein, G& G Engineering Associates, Inc., 22245 Tireman, Detroit: I have no
additional comments.
Mr. Engebretson: It is going to appear to the audience that we are not necessarily doing a
due diligence on this particular project. The situation is we had the
opportunity to meet with the petitioner a week ago and we could come
14888
to a determination that this particular proposal complied in every
respect with the City requirements and therefore there is not a whole
lot to talk about here tonight. We have worked on this and had an
opportunity to visit the location.
Mr. Alanskas: Also just for the record Mr. Chairman, we discussed at that time if the
need would be for more parking, they have enough land in the future
for more parking if needed.
Mr. Engebretson: And we were convinced it would be in their own best interest if they
did do that. I should say they did make the offer to increase the
parking, which was certainly a generous offer to make, but they
interpreted that as being an unnecessary expense given the
circumstances so it appears that we came to a very satisfactory
resolution of the matter without anybody having to do anything
unnecessary or compromising the ordinance.
Mr. Piercecchi: Because of the way we discussed the parking and inasmuch as the
effect of the new addition, they would never be used concurrently, we
decided there was no parking deficiency and it would not be necessary
for this particular church to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals to ask
for a waiver.
Mr. Engebretson: You are exactly right.
v..
On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann, seconded by Mr. Morrow and unanimously
approved, it was
#5-74-96 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby approve Petition
96-5-8-7 by Mt. Hope Congregational Church requesting approval for all plans
required by Section 18.58 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a
proposal to construct an addition to the church located at 30330 Schoolcraft
Road in the Southeast 1/4 of Section 23 subject to the following conditions:
1) That the Site Plan marked Sheet C-1 dated 4/17/96 prepared by G& G
Engineering Associates, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to;
2) That the Building Elevation Plan marked Sheet A-3 dated 4/29/96 prepared
by G& G Engineering Associates, is hereby approved and shall be adhered
to;
3) That the building materials of the new addition shall match the building
materials of the existing church so that upon completion the entire
structure will look like it was constructed at one time.
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Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Subdivision Entrance
Marker and Landscape Greenbelt proposed for Harrison Woods Subdivision
proposed to be located on the south side of Seven Mile between Lathers Avenue
and Brentwood Avenue in the North 1/2 of Section 12.
Mr. Miller: Harrison Woods Subdivision was approved on February 28, 1995 for
Preliminary Plat approval. A condition of that approval was the
greenbelt along Seven Mile and the subdivision entrance marker be
approved by the Planning Commission prior to Final Plat approval, and
that is what is before you. This shows a 20 ft. wide greenbelt
landscaped area along Lot 18. The property line that fronts along
Seven Mile Road would be a 20 ft. wide greenbelt landscaped with a 2
to 2 1/2 wandering type of berm. Also, Lot 1 is the same with a 20 ft.
wide berm running through it. The entrance marker would be brick as
a support. They are allowed 20 sq. ft. for an entrance marker and the
size of this one is 18 sq. ft. so it meets the requirements of the entrance
marker. Everything is in conformance.
Mr. Engebretson: Would the petitioner please come forward.
Ettore Paolucci, 17150 Inkster Road, Redford: I am the developer of Harrison Woods.
Mr. Morrow: It is a nice looking plan but when we see something new, we want to
find out a little more about it, and one of our concerns is the
expectancy of the sign until it needs to be refurbished or brought back
up to speed. Did the sign company give you any idea how long that
sign would last before it would have to be upgraded or refurbished?
Mr. Paolucci: Yes he did. We researched that after we talked to you previously. I
talked with the sub-contractor yesterday. He will warranty the sign for
five years. The color and the paint will be a total of five coats, two
primers and three final coats. The three final coats will be the high
density gloss. He claims it is some special paint. I am not a painter
therefore I am taking his word on it. I was pleased with that. It was
more than I expected.
Mr. Morrow: It is an attractive sign, at least in my opinion, and it seems like five
years would be safe. It would be no problem to bring it back up to its
original condition when it does need maintenance?
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Mr. Paolucci: No. I asked that same question. He said as long as the paint
manufacturer is still in business, he assured me that other manufacturers
do sell this particular special paint. He assured me of that.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Piercecchi, seconded by Mr. Morrow and unanimously
approved, it was
#5-75-96 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby approve the
Subdivision Entrance Marker and Landscape Greenbelt proposed for Harrison
Woods Subdivision proposed to be located on the south side of Seven Mile
between Lathers Avenue and Brentwood Avenue in the North 1/2 of Section
12, subject to the following condition:
1) That the Landscape & Entrance Marker Plan dated April 15, 1996
prepared by Arbor Building Company, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Sign Permit
Application by Media Play requesting approval for signage for property located
at 30000 Plymouth Road in the Southeast 1/4 of Section 26.
`"" Mr. Miller: This site is located on the north side of Plymouth Road between
Middlebelt and Tech Center Dr. This building was formerly occupied
by Builders Square. Back in 1995 they were approved for site plan
approval to renovate the front of the building for Media Play. Now
they are coming back for signage. What they are proposing is in excess
of what they are allowed by the sign ordinance so therefore they had to
go to the Zoning Board to get a variance prior to being presented to
the Planning Commission. They have been to the Zoning Board and
what is before you is what was approved by the Zoning Board. They
are proposing three wall signs for the front of the building. You have
the 80 sq. ft. small triangle with their logo. This will be illuminated and
have the Media Play in red individual letters, which will be 250 sq. ft.
That also will be illuminated. Then you have a large blue triangle
behind those signs, which is 162 sq. ft. This will not be illuminated.
They are also proposing a ground sign, which is conforming to the sign
ordinance. It is 30 sq. ft. in size, 6 ft. in height and will be located on
the right hand side as you drive in off Tech Center Drive into their
drive to the site. So everything is conforming due to the variance by
the Zoning Board.
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Mr. Engebretson: Would the petitioner please come forward and add whatever comments
you feel are appropriate.
Mark Cleary, 7030 Hillendale Road, NW, Dump River, Minnesota. I am the Construction
Project Manager for Media Play for this site and I was the Construction
Manager on all the other Michigan locations. Basically what Mr. Miller
said is pretty thorough. Mr. Parrague has been the one handling this
matter with the City but unfortunately a personal matter came up and
he will not be able to attend any more meetings. This was dropped on
me yesterday since it is going to be my market anyway. I went through
the file and basically everything we are asking for is as Mr. Miller
described it. I will answer any questions.
Mr. Alanskas: On the large blue triangle, how many other Media Plays do you have in
Michigan at the present time?
Mr. Cleary: This will be number eight. There is one in Grand Rapids, one in
Saginaw, one in Pontiac, one in Clinton Township, one in Utica, one at
Tel-Twelve Mall, and a new one was just completed over in Taylor,
Michigan. The only one in this state that does not have the blue
triangle is the one we did at Tel-Twelve mall in Southfield. That was a
mall that we wanted to get in and they could not give us adequate size
so we had to build a two-story store, and then with going with the two
stories and the narrowness of the lot, proportionately it was not
*,r" possible to put the blue triangle up there.
Mr. Alanskas: At the seven or eight that you do have the blue triangle, how many
square feet are they?
Mr. Cleary: The triangle is the same approximate size as here on all stores facades.
Mr. Alanskas: 162 sq. ft.?
Mr. Cleary: Right.
Mr. Engebretson: Just a point of clarification. There are really two issues in that triangle.
There is the Media Play logo, which is itself in the form of a triangle,
and then there is that large area that is part of the construction of the
building, which is like the background for that logo. Are you referring
to the larger area or the smaller logo area when you make comparisons
to other locations?
Mr. Cleary: Both sir.
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Mr. Engebretson: So with the exception of Tel-Twelve every other Media Play store in
Michigan, to the best of your knowledge, would have a sign
configuration that would be the same as this one?
Mr. Cleary: Yes sir.
Mr. LaPine: When the gentleman was here before making his presentation, one of
the arguments he gave is this is Media Play's corporate logo across the
country. Is that correct?
Mr. Cleary: The concept is three years old. The first 13 buildings were not of this
prototype and they were not happy with them. I saw them when I
started in the business about 2 1/2 years ago and they had a large
vertical tower and it wasn't being accepted too well by the corporate
sponsors or anyone else, and quite frankly it was ugly. They came up
with this prototype and the majority of the stores have this.
Mr. LaPine: But not all your stores across the country. I just came back from
Charlotte, North Carolina. There were two Media Play stores there.
They didn't have any triangles in front. All they had was the words
"Media Play" and underneath"Music Books Movies Software"very
similar to this.
Mr. Cleary: I am not familiar with the market down there sir.
Mr. LaPine: We were led to believe, and a lot of the members went along with it,
that because this is your corporate logo you had to have this or you
couldn't go in business because this is what you had to have. I am just
pointing out that this isn't true. There are other stores, at least the two
stores I saw in Charlotte, North Carolina, that do not have this type of
a triangle.
Mr. Cleary: We just closed some of our non-performing stores but those two
weren't closed.
Mr. Engebretson: You are at somewhat of a disadvantage sir because we discussed this
for 20 to 30 minutes when we went through this the first time around
and we really didn't come to any kind of a consensus as to what
constituted the sign, etc., and we just didn't agree on what the sign was
and what you needed to have. We understand you have the variance
from the Zoning Board and now the matter is rightfully before us for
resolution and we will come to that, but please understand that there is
some history here that you may be aware of, you may not be, and I
don't want you to feel that we are getting into an adverse role with you
14893
here over that triangle because that is where we were, and you come
into this in the middle of things and we want to get it resolved.
Mr. Cleary: We do too. We are actually out for a bid right now. I had a meeting
today with the general contractors we had on the bidders list. We are
making permit applications. We plan our opening October 4th if we
don't have any other problems, and we need to get going so we know
exactly what we are going to build. It is in our best interest.
Mr. Morrow: On the ground sign that is going to be on Plymouth Road, we see quite
often these computer enhanced signs and the colors represented are not
really indicative of what you plan to do. Is that yellow representative
of the color you are going to achieve on the site?
Mr. Cleary: Yes it is sir.
Mr. Morrow: Because we seem to be introducing a brand new color, are you in a
position to consider softening that yellow perhaps down to a color that
would match the brick on the building?
Mr. Cleary: Would white with red lettering be acceptable to the Commission? We
have done that one before.
Mr. Morrow: I think I would feel better with the white than the yellow.
Mr. Cleary: The beige just doesn't seem to stand out.
Mr. Engebretson: Apparently there is some room for discussion, and negotiations is what
I hear Mr. Morrow.
Mr. Morrow: Yes we have the white or the yellow on the table.
Mr. Alanskas: This reminds me about three or four years ago we had Service
Merchandise come before us on Plymouth Road and they wanted to
have this huge wall sign saying they could not be seen from Plymouth
Road. At that time we did not approve that height. We knocked it
down quite a bit and they can be seen very well today from where they
are. I think your building is gorgeous and I just have a problem with
the size of that blue logo. I just don't think it is necessary to have
almost 492 sq. ft. of a logo. I think if you knocked that down quite a
bit it could be seen very well from Plymouth Road, even though you sit
back kind of far you could still see it if it was reduced. I have a big
problem with that.
14894
Mr. Cleary: The corporation is trying to move that way. We learned a good lesson
in the last year when we opened so many stores that we didn't
concentrate and hit an area with an amount of stores where the
advertising dollar paid off so now they are coming in and trying to put
three to seven stores in a market. This is the last one right now for this
market. We would like to make it identify with the rest of the market
as much as possible. Actually, when you look at how the logo mounts
on there, the 80 sq. ft. sits on top of the 160 sq. ft. of the other sign.
Actually that 80 is still within the 164 sq. ft. of that large blue triangle.
Mr. Alanskas: I was at your store on Telegraph a couple of month's ago and I don't
recall that triangle being anywhere near that large.
Mr. Cleary: There it is just the icon. The same icon that is on here. With the two-
story height of the glass windows there, there wasn't any room to put
the blue icon up.
Mr. Alanskas: Can your customers see you now without not having that triangle?
Mr. Cleary: Not according to the sales report the way the President has been talking
on Monday mornings.
Mr. Alanskas: As one Commissioner I have a very big problem with that being that
large.
Mr. Engebretson: Is there anything you care to add sir?
Mr. Cleary: No sir. I would just like for you to make a recommendation either for
or against so we know which way we are heading so I can get the
building done and open up for fourth quarter business.
On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann, seconded by Mrs. Blomberg and unanimously
approved, it was
#5-76-96 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to
the City Council that Sign Permit Application by Media Play requesting
approval for signage for property located at 30000 Plymouth Road in the
Southeast 1/4 of Section 26, be approved subject to the following conditions:
1) That the Sign Package by Media Play, as received by the Planning
Commission on May 1, 1996, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to,
except for the following:
- that the background color of the sign panel of the ground sign shall be
white;
14895
- that the 162 sq. ft. large blue triangle sign is denied and shall be either
removed or painted to match the building.
2) That all signage shall not be illuminated beyond one hour after business
hours.
Mr. Engebretson: For clarification Mr. McCann, if I understand correctly, what we are
voting on is the package as presented except for the monument sign
color change as you have indicated and that the larger portion of the
large blue area, would not be blue but it would be the neutral color that
the building fascia would have and that the blue logo that is mounted
on that, or am I misunderstanding?
Mr. McCann: No the large blue triangle that is 162 sq. ft. is not approved.
Everything else is approved with the white background.
Mr. Engebretson: What happens with the 162 sq. ft. large blue triangle? You say it is not
approved. What happens to it? It is there. It is on the approved site
plan.
Mr. Nagy: It is approved as part of the building design but it is not approved with
respect to the color. The petitioner prevailed that it was an
architectural element so therefore it could be fabricated as part of the
building but it just could not be painted the blue color so as to be a part
" of the background of the sign.
Mr. Engebretson: But the petitioner appears to have the impression that it is to be blue
but the verbiage that has been provided here would not approve that.
It would have to be the same neutral color as the fascia of the building.
They would still have their corporate identity, they would still have the
blue logo. It is just mounted on an area that is a neutral color rather
than a blue color.
Mr. Piercecchi: So you are saying Mr. Chairman that the triangle would still be there, it
just wouldn't be blue?
Mr. Engebretson: Exactly. I would like to clarify that Mr. Nagy. Since the site plan was
approved with that triangle constructed into the fascia of the building, it
would be your impression that the motion as presented here would
understand that that shape would still be there and that the blue logo
would be mounted on that triangular shape, it is just that that shape
could not be blue. It would be the same color as the building. Because
this is in a control zone it needs to go to the City Council for their
review and approval and by the time they deal with this hopefully we
14896
will have that language all clear so there is no misunderstanding as to
what the intent is.
NiNow
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Engebretson: That concludes the site plan section of the agenda. We now move into
the public hearing section.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-4-2-14 by
Walkon& Associates requesting waiver use approval to construct a twenty
screen movie theater on property located north of Seven Mile Road between
Haggerty Road and the I-275 Expressway in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 6.
Mr. Miller presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning
of the surrounding area.
Mr. Nagy: We have received letters from Engineering Department and the Traffic
Bureau stating their offices have no objections to this plan. We have
also received a letter from the Fire Marshal stating their division would
have no objection to this proposal contingent upon the following: 1.
Due to the size and occupancy of the facility, this Division will require
the driveway around the perimeter of building to be designated as a fire
lane and posted pursuant to City Ordinance 10.60. 2. A hydrant will be
required on the east side of the building. 3. The parking arrangement
located at the southeast corner of the building may have to be altered to
accommodate turning radius of responding emergency vehicle. Also in
our file is a letter from the Inspection Department stating the following
deficiencies were found: 1. The long term employee parking spaces are
proposed to be 9' in width. As proposed, this will require a variance
from the Zoning Board of Appeals to waive the 10' width requirement
for the employee parking spaces. 2. Section 11.03(g) requires that
each separate viewing auditorium have a minimum seating capacity of
400 seats. This proposal is for 20 auditoriums, which would require a
minimum capacity of 8,000 seats, only 4,056 seats are provided. We
also have a two page letter. Each of the Commissioners have been
furnished with a copy of the letter. It is from Michelle M. Sheffer of
35818 Richland opposing this petition.
Mr. Engebretson: Thank you John. I have a copy of that letter which we received here
this evening, and it boils down to a couple of words per paragraph.
Trees and wildlife are discussed in the first paragraph. The location not
being beneficial to the vast majority of the residents of Livonia is dealt
with next. It goes on to question this location as compared to another
area that might be better suited in Livonia. There is a concern over the
lack of need for this type of facility. She goes on to indicate concern
14897
about the affect this proposal would have on the other malls in Livonia
that have movie theaters as part of their offering, and then the final
w concern has to do with traffic in the area. Then she closes by indicating
some concern that this notice given for this public hearing is not
sufficient time to raise the public awareness and to allow for proper
public comment. It is certainly a letter that indicates a number of
concerns. We will begin by asking the petitioner to come forward and
explain your proposal and tell us why you are making this request. We
are focusing initially on the waiver use for the theaters but we are going
to keep in mind as we go through this that actually there are five public
hearings here this evening having to do with waiver uses and liquor
licenses, etc. for the restaurants, while keeping in mind the movie
theater aspect of it, which is on the table right now.
Gary Jonna, Executive Vice President of the Jonna Companies, 1533 North Woodward
Avenue, Bloomfield Hills: I am representing the land owner, Pentagon
Properties Limited Partnership. You are correct, Mr. Chairman, my
intention initially, and how we will format the presentation, I would like
to give an overview of the entire project because it is a campus
development and it integral, and we will emphasize the theater proposal
but I would like again to give an overview of the buildings and the
parking circulation, etc.
Mr. Engebretson: I think it is important that you do that so that the total impact can be
‘411
" better understood rather than dealing with each issue in isolation.
Mr. Jonna: Then I will call upon a representative of AMC and representatives of
the respective restaurants. This is what I refer to as the big picture.
Just to give everyone the lay of the land, this is Interstate I-275. This is
Haggerty Road and Seven Mile. You can see the subject site is
approximately 35.4 acres. Going northbound you have Haggerty Tech
Park immediately north. There is an office research site zoned PO III
that has frontage along I-275. Immediately north of that is the Home
Quarters and north of the Home Quarters is the Target store. Along
Haggerty Road and west of the retail is the U of M Hospital, Livonia
campus. Further north you have the Hampton and across from that
Meijers Thrifty Acres. Immediately south of Meijers a 30 acre
commercial development is proposed in Northville Township of
approximately 150,000 sq. ft. The Windridge Subdivision, the Home
Depot store, the Macaroni Grill again to the south, Seven Mile
Crossing and Cookers Restaurant. Right now in terms of existing
circulation, there is an access drive at the northern border of the site
that moves all the way along CBS Technicolor and then back onto
Seven Mile. You can see, in terms of topography, it is quite significant.
The grades graduate from west to east some 25 to 30 feet.
14898
Immediately west of CBS Technicolor there is a series of connected
ponds and regulated wetlands. This portion of the site interdicts that
pond and then there is a emergence into wetlands that surrounds that to
the west. There is also a drainage channel that runs as a ravine
immediately north of Macaroni Grill that takes drainage from across
here down and then further to the south. There is an existing historical
building that houses a law firm that is along the Haggerty frontage and
immediately south of Macaroni Grill site. There is also an exception
parcel that is zoned office, I believe. It is a site that is about 150' by
200' and it is the area I am tracing right now. What you can also note
from the aerial in terms of vegetation, there is a lot of scrub shrub
vegetation. It is not of high quality. It is short lived and this vegetation
would be considered second growth that has been there approximately
35 years, and this area has been disturbed from time to time historically
through earth movement. That is the overview.
I would like to move on to the site plan. (Mr. Jonna presented the site
plan) This will show the entire development. The subject of this
petition is for a 20 screen theater of approximately 72,927 sq. ft. of
building area. There are 4,056 seats and the auditoriums range in size
from 150 just short of 500. The A site is the future retail site. Again,
we are not in with a petition on that this evening but it is shown as
approximately 43,000 sq. ft. and 276 parking spaces. Both A and C are
future retail. I have talked about the AMC Theater. E is the Champs
N"" Americana Restaurant with approximately 241 seats and D is J.
Alexander's proposal. As you can see from the overall site plan, what
we have attempted to do is create a campus type of development where
the buildings in lieu of being in a power center format are interspersed
throughout the site and creates architectural diversity and also meeting
the ability to break up the various parking areas.
In terms of storm detention, as you can see the areas in blue, there is a
major storm detention area here but also utilizing these existing ponds.
We have an entryway from Seven Mile Road with some right turn
improvements as approved by the Road Commission. I mentioned a
drainage channel. There will be some storage of storm detention there
as well.
As you can see, what we have attempted to accomplish, the center
drive has been boulevarded at two locations. The major impact would
be an access that runs east to west and as you pull into the heavily
landscaped boulevard then you would be point blank facing an image
feature, which we haven't determined exactly what that will be
comprised of but something artistic, something to grant a sense of
arrival to the development. In the backdrop to the image feature is the
14899
entrance to the theater, which is a very impressive elevation. We tried
to create a very strong visual axis here by virtue of the boulevard, the
`w image feature and the theater entryway.
Again, not getting into too much detail about landscaping because we
will be back here to talk about that some more, we have attempted to
use a number of shade trees, bevels of landscaping, breaking up the
parking areas, and also trying to position the lighting in a very subtle
fashion with a minimum of two trees per landscape island. In addition
to that we have designed a pedestrian system. The area to the north,
which is an existing drive, we have chosen to also significantly enhance
that area. If you have been to the site, right now it is just a two lane
approach. What we plan on doing is adding significant screening all the
way along on both sides of the area. We also will add a boulevard. We
will be using that area hopefully for some graphic signage and will be
landscaping that again to enhance that area.
I would like to talk about vehicular circulation. In a site of this size
with multiple buildings, it is absolutely essential that regardless of what
entry someone may chose to use, that they can circulate through the
site with ease and we can create parking blocks that would allow if one
pod should be full, that someone could proceed to the next pod, etc.
not creating a lot of conflicts with the internal circulation.
(Mr. Jonna presented the entrance plan)
As you can see great effort has been taken to establishing very strong
axis from the north and south and also from the east and west. In any
event if someone were traveling, he would have the opportunity in this
case to go all the way to the site to the east and again from the Seven
Mile Road to proceed all the way to the existing drive to the north.
From the boulevard you have the opportunity to go north or south, and
again for the many people that would be dropped off at the theater,
they will have several opportunities to park. As I said before, it is
absolutely essential that people not get lost in the development, and
they have several options available to them. This particular vehicular
circulation affords that opportunity.
Perhaps one of the greatest virtues of this particular site is the amount
of open space. We are fortunate to have the drainage channel here that
is heavily vegetated. In addition to that we have taken and exploited
the pond and wetland area. We have also had an opportunity to put a
storm detention area in here and landscape that with more natural type
vegetation that is in keeping with the storm detention, and then the
other areas that we have talked about in the past are the belts of
14900
landscaping that serve to break up the parking masses within the site
and create the pods I have spoken of. If you look at this project, it
'glowrepresents about 8.3 acres of open space. That is 23.4% vs. the
ordinance requirement of 15%. I believe we have accomplished the
goal. Because of the vegetation on the site and the amount of fill that
has to go into the site due to the grades, then we are going to lose most
of the vegetation on the site. The highest quality areas are wetland
areas. That will be maintained but what it gives us is the opportunity to
go back with oak and maple and ash and more high quality canopy type
trees and intersperse them throughout the development. As you can
see the amount of open space has been well distributed and it is
significant. It is well beyond what the ordinance would require and has
taken advantage of preserving the natural features.
We move here to the pedestrian circulation, I think another wonderful
facet to this project. If someone asked how do you get from building
to building because we would like to refer to this as pedestrian friendly,
and we tried to accomplish that by providing pedestrian pathways for
safe harbor for people to traverse from restaurant to restaurant, retail
or the theater. As you know the sidewalk has been installed along the
north side of Seven Mile Road from Newburgh all the way to Haggerty
Road. I am sure you played a role in that. We are going to complete
that circuit and in this area here is where we make our strong
connection to that pedestrian pathway. What ends up happening is we
have a pedestrian connection to the public walk that follows the
circulation all the way to the front of the theater. Also, there is a spur
that wraps itself around the Champs Americana project. There is also a
connection that comes down to J. Alexander's from the theater and
image feature that ties into the future retail, and again you proceed
north on two separate axis to future retail A and then back down
immediately west along the north service drive taking again a strong
connection here that maybe not too late in the future, there is a bike
path on the west side of Haggerty Road, and hopefully we can use that
as a collector for a pedestrian walkway.
The storm water management is self explanatory. We have our existing
ponds. We have our storm detention in this area immediately north of
the north drive and then we have some storm water management in this
area. I think it is important to emphasize to the Planning Commission
this evening that this is not a site that hasn't been engineered. We have
taken great care and attention in that regard. We have done all the
calculations and we are absolutely confident that the storm water
management here has been accomplished in terms of volume and
storage. That even goes further to the utility distribution to the site,
and also as evidenced by the report we received from the Engineering
14901
Department. We have completed our preliminary engineering phase.
This is a plan that can be executed.
%..
In terms of a recap, the major issues are to have strong vehicular
circulation due to the campus nature of the development, to provide
generous open space interspersed throughout the project to take
advantage of natural land features, providing safe harbor to a
pedestrian circulation system throughout the project, and also
providing for pre-engineering approach for storm water management.
We will move on to the AMC presentation.
(Mr. Jonna presented the elevation and floor plans for the AMC Theater)
Mr. Jonna: I think what I will do is I will let Nestor get into some of the mezzanine
plan projections and some of the sections of the area and the beauty of
the stadium style concept. The only other point I would like to touch
on that are significant, you should have received a letter this evening
from the Wayne County Road Commission. Everyone is concerned
about traffic. Everyone is concerned about circulation and congestion,
etc. We have retained the engineering firm of McNamee, Porter&
Seeley, Inc. They are representing us here this evening. They have
prepared a traffic study that was submitted to the City as well as the
County, and I am very pleased to report that after several meetings
with the County we have, as embodied in that letter, agreed upon the
improvements and enhancements that are necessary as a result of the
traffic this particular project would generate. I think we have worked
very hard over the last week to reach a consensus with the County and
provide for lane widenings and approaches, etc. that would certainly
elevate the level of service at various intersections.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Jonna, could you elaborate. We all have the benefit of looking at
this letter but I think it would be helpful to those in the audience that
are interested in this issue as to what it is that Wayne County has given
you approval of relative to those traffic improvements.
Mr. Jonna: I'll do the best I can not being a traffic engineer. I think if there are any
questions, certainly Mr. Lafferty is here to answer them. On the big
picture standpoint, there is a road improvement that will occur, actually
this one has been for some time sanctioned by the County Road
Commission, there is a right turn lane improvement that will occur at
this location into the Seven Mile Road entrance of a full lane that is
going all the way back to the CBS Technicolor site. So there is a right
turn lane that will serve to unload Seven Mile of the traffic that is going
to our project. In terms of Haggerty Road, there would be a full lane
14902
improvement that would go along the entire frontage and fill in a
number of gaps. The major improvement on the other side of the street
Ni..• is to allow for widening that would fill in the gap for the center lane for
left turns. What that means is we will have continuity of that center
lane for left turns the entire frontage of our development. As you will
note in the letter Phase II of the project includes an additional lane
widening that becomes necessary once AMC would come on line, and
then the final improvement of Phase II would be whether or not there
would be a need for a traffic signal at this location and attrituble to that
would be a further widening that occurs on the west side of Haggerty
north of our site. It is necessary so you could move more traffic
southbound. That improvement, again, is tied directly to traffic signals.
The County's perspective is let's get Phase I on line, let's take another
look at the volumes that are being created and then we will determine if
there is a need for the traffic signal and additional lane widening. Again
Michael Lafferty can go into that in tremendous depth for you.
Mr. Engebretson: While we are on the subject, are you making the commitment that these
lane widening improvements that have been approved by Wayne
County, you are agreeable to fulfilling these in the phases that have
been defined?
Mr. Jonna: Absolutely.
imeaw
Mr. Piercecchi: Five lanes all the way?
Mr. Jonna: Ultimately it will be five lanes but it is being done in the phase approach
as I have mentioned but we will be underwriting the costs of those
improvements that are noted in the letter.
Mr. Engebretson: No cost to the City?
Mr. Jonna: No cost to the City whatsoever. Mr. Sanchez will speak specifically to
the theater proposal and go into some depth. If there are any questions
on any other part of the site, we will be pleased to answer them at this
time.
Mr. LaPine: I just want to get something straight. The improvements on the roads,
both Seven Mile and Haggerty, when you talk about Phase I and Phase
II will all the improvements on Haggerty and Seven Mile be done now?
Mr. Jonna: Phase I will include a right turn lane on the Seven Mile approach.
Phase I will also include all the improvements along the east side of
Haggerty Road in terms of lane widenings and will include, as I said
14903
before, the widening will allow for the center lane for left turns. That is
Phase I. That will all be done in one sweep.
Mr. Jonna: I will introduce Mr. Sanchez. He is the Director of Design and
Development for AMC Theaters and he is going to expand on the
theater.
Nestor Sanchez, Director of Development for AMC Theaters, Northeast Division: Before
I move forward with my part of the presentation, I wanted to tell Mr.
Jonna that I was so impressed with his building presentation for AMC,
I am seriously thinking about offering him the position of Building
Presenter nationally for the company.
I wanted to take a few minutes to share with you the AMC story, and I
think it to be an interesting and new story. The story of the movie
theater of the 21st Century. The story of an entertainment complex,
that we as a team propose here this evening. American Multi Cinema,
Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of AMC Entertainment, is a premier
owner and developer of quality motion pictures, the industry leader in
bringing Taylor technology, innovation and customer orientated service
to America. With roots extending back to the early days of movie
exhibition, AMC is among American's largest motion picture
exhibitors. The builder of the first multi-plex theater, AMC now
operates 230 theaters in 22 states for a total of 1600 screens nationally.
Customer oriented from the start, AMC continually strives to bring the
highest quality movie viewing experience to their customers. As the
movie going public has matured and grown in sophistication, AMC has
evolved to meeting those changing faces and demands. Following our
tradition for innovation, AMC has introduced several movie theater
innovations which have become movie standards. These include
innovative technology, including computerized box office and advanced
credit card phone sales, enhanced viewing experience with Taurus
compound screens, Sony dynamic sound systems for brighter pictures
and clearer sounds, plus high back stadium style seating on risers, 18
inches in differential from the row before without obstructed views,
armrest cup holders for audience comfort and convenience.
We started the movie watcher program, the first frequent moviegoer
program, which rewards regular customers with discounts and free
refreshments and provides AMC with the industry's best demographic
information on its customer base. So the numbers we share today
come from these interviews. The industry's only comprehensive
management training program with a Bachelor's Degree prerequisite
for the participants. There is a difference. A video based training
program for the entire theater staff designed to enhance the service
14904
skills of our crew people, behavior among concession workers, ticket
sellers and ushers. To showcase our design technologically in customer
service excellence, AMC created a new movie experience.
Now, as our next stage, AMC is developing lifestyle centers consisting
of multi-screen theaters, restaurants, and quality retail establishments
where a family can enjoy a full afternoon or evening of dining, shopping
and entertainment conveniently and safer. Who is the AMC customer?
AMC designs its theaters to attract its customers from the five to seven
mile radius. Our extensive research indicates that 75%to 80% of our
audience typically lives within a six mile radius of our location. We can
tell you here at Seven Mile and Haggerty a five mile radius includes a
number of 240,000 customers and a seven mile radius takes that
number up to 380,000 customers. Industry research has determined
that today's movie going audience has become older, better educated
and more affluent than our audiences a decade ago, which has been
borne out through our own data. Furthermore, we have also
determined those who chose to visit our theaters from beyond this
seven mile area have a higher per capita income and select AMC for a
quality movie viewing experience.
Our strategy is to increase the frequency of movie viewership in our
trade area rather than attract patrons from a wider area. I can tell you
',N„w that the movie going industry is a very healthy industry. Last year we
enjoyed 1.2 billion visits. In a nation of 260 million people that simply
averages out to four visits per person. Our intent is to increase that
frequency. As part of our dedication to attract the repeat customers
AMC has established an industry first, the movie watcher frequent
program. Participants will enjoy these kinds of benefits: free movie
tickets, newsletters, and free refreshments. Why are we proposing 20
screens for Livonia? An AMC multi screen theater offers local
residents an opportunity to enjoy a wide variety of viewing options
close to home. The number of releases has doubled over the last ten
years. The movie distribution business is very healthy as well. The
larger number of screens assists us to bring the hot movies to you. In
the days of the smaller screen facilities, many communities missed new
releases because the hit films were held for extended runs at the local
theater. More screens have allowed AMC to exhibit all current popular
movies while keeping hits for longer engagements. In the unlikely
event the moviegoer's first choice is sold out, the wide variety of films
virtually assures you a second choice. Secondly, additional screens also
enable AMC to meet the early high standards for new releases by
playing them on multiple screens. With 20 screens we will no longer
need to advertise the title or the time. We feel comfortable with telling
you that within a 15 minute period of time you will be able to view
14905
your first or second choice uninterrupted. By making the investment in
consolidating a number of screens into one state-of-the-art operation,
'r.. AMC can better provide a higher quality of the viewing environment
and better amenities. Presently in many cases small geographical areas
host as many as 20 to 30 screens in two or three competing smaller
multiple screen theaters with a varying degree of quality.
We realize that residents consider their local theater to be a direct
reflection on your community. AMC shows movies that appeal to the
residents of the communities surrounding our theaters during hours that
meet the local standards of the movie General Manager. We show
first-run, popular films as well as selected art, international and children
films. We are proud to be the largest user of Disney and Warner
Brothers films. In fact, we can tell you that AMC was the only chosen
permitted movie distributor to operate at Disney World, a sign of our
commitment to family entertainment and customer-driven approach.
AMC does not routinely show NC-17 or unrated films. The content of
each movie in each category is evaluated on a case-by-case basis at the
local level. Community standards and taste are always a strong
consideration in the decision making process. AMC is not a 24-hour
theater, and we will have operating hours that are consistent with other
suburban movie theaters.
We intend to construct a center that is designed with the community in
mind. Before we begin planning our design work in any of our theater
complexes, we gather community input not only from a personal
standpoint but as well from the local planners, engineers, and traffic
consultants that work every day in these communities. We are working
with quality entertainment, retailers and family restaurants to create a
lifestyle center for Livonia that lets residents enjoy a full evening of
friendly dining, shopping and a movie in a comfortable state-of-the-art
facility. Our team includes planners, landscapers, consultants,
engineers, who are all working to make sure we blend into your
community. The off-peak patronage created by AMC Lifestyle
Centers is complimentary to a typical rush hour traffic. As owner and
manager of the theater facility AMC is committed to maintaining the
facility as a place that Livonia residents can be proud of.
While AMC is dedicated to providing the best possible movie
experience for the moviegoer, we also understand our responsibility to
the non-moviegoer. We firmly believe in enriching each community we
join from an attractive building as Gary displayed for you, from a safe
and secure site, to employees who participate in the growth and success
of the community, who are responsible corporate citizens and a good
neighbor. Security is our concern as well as your concern. A patron
14906
who feels unsafe will have a bad experience and will not return to any
business. It is a basic rule of business. AMC does not tolerate
�.. loitering, vandalism or theft in any of its theaters and we back up our
commitment to a safe, enjoyable environment for our guests. We work
closely with local law enforcement to create and maintain a strong
security plan and to insure that visitors feel safe and welcome when
they visit us. Thank you for your attention.
Mr. LaPine: I would like to discuss the movies that you will show there. You have
16 theaters in Livonia right now in Laurel Park, Wonderland and 20
here so that would be a total of 36 theaters. I can't believe we will
have 36 separate movies. The types of movies that worry me, more
than anything else, are the violent movies that stir up people when they
leave the theater and they start vandalism. It has happened in theaters
throughout the country. It has happened in theaters here. There was
one theater in Southfield where someone was shot, and there have been
other theaters throughout the metropolitan Detroit area. I think this is
basically done because when you get these large theaters you get a
concentration of all different types of people. You get older people,
you get teenagers, you get younger crowds, you get gangs that might
end up going there. What commitment will we get out of AMC
Theaters that those types of movies will not be shown at this theater?
f,`, Mr. Sanchez: It is to AMC's interest to work with the local community to perform an
acceptable level of viewing experience for you. We don't habitually
encourage the NC-17s or the unrated films. We are a first run movie
theater. Are we going to say that we will review with you each film
that we intend to exhibit in one of our theaters? Obviously from a
business standpoint that becomes extremely difficult to manage. What
I can tell you that in all places where we operate as a business we are
concerned about the movie displays that we put out to the community.
If there is an opportunity to talk about this under another theater where
we can meet and agree on correct planning, I would be happy to do
that. We don't typically do that as a matter of presentation on the
public board meeting. It is simply not a good business practice.
Nonetheless to tell we are concerned and to tell you we will talk about
it further is something I can make a statement about tonight.
Mr. LaPine: I know the Star Theater, the new 20 movie theater going in at
Southfield, they did get some commitments from those people, and I
would like to tell all the members that I met with the Southfield
Planning Director today for an hour. We went over the whole project
that is going in Southfield and they showed me a video of the project
and I will tell you it is really a nice project, but they got some
commitments that I didn't believe anyone could get out of a developer.
14907
I will go into those as we get into this project. The other problem I
have, what impact would these 20 theaters have on Laurel Park? That
is the one that is the jewel of Livonia as far as I am concerned. We
``or have 10 theaters there that does a beautiful job. Will this draw from
that theater and sometime down the line if all these 36 theaters can't
make it, we now close down the theaters in Laurel Park, or we close
down the theaters in Wonderland so the Wonderland people end up
going to Laurel Park and the Laurel Park people start coming out here?
I am confused how you can have that many theaters and still operate
profitably in all three locations.
Mr. Sanchez: I can tell it is not AMC's intention to close either Laurel Park or
Wonderland at this point or any time in the future. We will continue to
operate all three theaters. In fact, we are strongly looking at the
improvement of those theaters from a physical standpoint. Some of the
things we talked about for the new movie theaters are physically
impossible to remodel to older existing facilities but there are some
things that we can do and have done to become more competitive and
to present ourselves better to the community in the older theaters. We
think the movie going industry is a healthy industry. We also clearly
foresee an increase in releases. We see that as a trend that will
continue. With the numbers demographically in the area in the five to
seven mile radius, we think all three can prosper very nicely.
�.• Mr. LaPine: You also have to remember we have Northville, Farmington, and we
have the Star Theater, we now have AMC Theaters, we have the
United Artist theaters in the area. We don't know where they are
going to come up with their 20 theaters. Each time one of these
happen, they are all drawing from the same group and if that group
starts getting smaller, none of you are going to be in a position where
you are making money. The thing that worries me is at that point we
say corporations are out to make money and you make the decision
okay it is time to close down Wonderland Theaters or Laurel Park
Theaters, whatever. Once these theaters close down, we end up with
what we have at Plymouth and Farmington Roads, the George Burns
Theater, that has been sitting there three years and we can't do
anything with it because it was built for a theater. If this thing goes
under, we have all these theaters, and what can they be used for? You
can't make them into a store, that doesn't make common sense because
you have slanted floors. So all these things we have to consider. It is
not just the idea that we have 20 theaters coming in. As far as I am
concerned, I have to look at what is going to happen years from now
not what is good for you now or what is good for the City of Livonia
today. It is what the future might hold.
14908
Mr. Sanchez: I can tell you AMC looks at the business in the same fashion. We have
no other business but the movie exhibition business. We are not
involved in any other movie related business other than showing
movies. It is clearly our goal in the next five years to build the
Lifecenter Theater Complexes that we are proposing at Seven Mile and
Haggerty, and it is clearly our goal to improve the physical
characteristics of some of the older theaters that operate in the
community. What I am here to present to you is the best of both
worlds. We are going to do the new one in Livonia that will bring in
the measure of retail, that will bring in the measure of restaurants, and
we are looking very strongly at upgrading Wonderland and Laurel Park
and will continue to operate them.
Mr. LaPine: How many of these 20 theaters would you run say a first class movie
like"Twister", which is a popular movie right now. Would you show
that at two or three of these theaters at one time?
Mr. Sanchez: Yes. There is a formula for sizing the auditorium that deals with the
new releases coming out. Clearly they become hot movies for that
weekend and possibly depending on what comes out the following
weekend, for two or three weekends. The general course of business is
we will not be running 20 different movies at Seven Mile and Haggerty.
We will be running the hot two or three movies on more than one
screen and then we will fill in the backside with other movies that
`�•► continue to be successful.
Mr. LaPine: That is the point, when I talk about these type of movies that I am not
too interested in seeing happen because of the problems they have
caused in the past. The other question, this came up in the meeting
today in Southfield, are you anticipating during the day when these
theaters are not being used, using them for rentals for conference
centers for corporations or companies that want to bring in 30, 40, 50
people and have a meeting in those theaters?
Mr. Sanchez: We are currently not talking about any of those issues.
Mr. Piercecchi: I may repeat some of the concerns and questions that our friend just
elaborated on, but I am concerned about this complex. Can it be
supported by Livonians alone? It means the potential of many
thousands of people crossing into Livonia borders. Have you any data
on what effect this type of package has on crime or the image of a
community, and do you supply your own security?
Mr. Sanchez: We currently have six to seven entertainment complexes of this nature
throughout the nation that we have successfully completed, and as we
14909
move forward in proposing others, we find that we can get letters from
local Police Chiefs. In fact, I can tell you we have not been any
problem at all to their community. I can think of one in Dallas, Texas,
a 24 screen theater in an area of Dallas where we have had absolutely
no problem with security because we are concerned about it. We
prefer to go to the municipality and say we are talking about security,
we have a security plan that makes sense to us, do we hire your local
police officers through the community police force at our expense or
do we make arrangements with local police officers independent of the
police at our expense again, and if neither of those are available to us,
we will go to a private firm and put a plan in place together with them
and present that to the Police Chief.
Mr. Piercecchi: The other thing I would like to touch on was the 36 films available at
one time. We know there is no such thing as 36 good films at one time
especially when it is arbitrary whether you consider the film good or
not, but my question is let's just say you can't fill 20 screens, people
don't want to see certain movies, is it customary or not customary for
your corporation to lease screens to other sources which then can show
X rated movies and things of that nature?
Mr. Sanchez: We absolutely will not do that.
Mr. Piercecchi: Do you have any data on when you put a complex of this nature into a
rr. City how many other screens are displaced like Mr. LaPine touched on?
I am very concerned about that, especially the Sears mall package. I
think there are four in the Livonia Mall and it is a 90 cent movie and I
think you could really hurt that operation, and also Wonderland.
Mr. Sanchez: We have no data to support any number in the industry. I believe we
do not have the data to suggest a number. Our plan moving forward is
to be concerned about demographics that fit the plans that we are
putting together. All the services that we get demographic information
from, to my knowledge, do not have that data available.
Mr. Piercecchi: In other words, even in cities you have put them in, you have no data
on other movie houses that close?
Mr. Sanchez: I will look into that further and if I have reason to change my
testimony, I will put that in writing.
Mr. Piercecchi: We do have the George Burns Center now that is closed as you know
on Plymouth and Middlebelt. A question here that may seem strange to
you but what if this enterprise fails, let's just say it fails, we hope it
won't if it gets initiated here, but are there any plans that you can
14910
revive this particular complex into a different action plan? Could you
utilize such a facility?
'o"' Mr. Sanchez: It is extremely difficult for me to talk about our child as a potential
failure in an area. The entertainment complex is one that AMC's
people are spending 110% of our time creating. I can tell you a couple
of things, and maybe Mr. Jonna can share with you further. Obviously
if we get in there, our intention is not to fail. I can also tell you that
architecturally that the design of the sloped riser floor auditoriums
make it a much simpler building to remodel. The sloped floors become
an issue with expense to take out the slab and then create an edifice
that is multi-purpose. That is not the case with the riser auditoriums.
They are a steel frame that is removed from the mezzanine steel frame
and what you have left is a building that has a flat floor. If the concern
is this is a sole purpose building, I think there may be new feelings from
banking and lending institutions that the new riser movie theaters are in
fact not single purpose buildings.
Mr. Piercecchi: You mentioned there are six or seven complexes like this. Are there
any close by other than the one on Telegraph Road?
Mr. Sanchez: We started one two weeks ago in Columbus, Ohio. The intention is to
open that complex in December of this year. The Pavillions in
Charlotte, North Carolina is a recent one. There is one in
`r•- Independence in Atlanta, Mission Valley in San Diego, the Grand in
Dallas, and we have several theaters in Florida.
Mr. Piercecchi: There is a possibility that some of us would visit one.
Mr. Alanskas: The Grand, how long has that been open?
Mr. Sanchez: Since May of last year.
Mr. Alanskas: How many seats do they have?
Mr. Sanchez: It has 5,000 seats, 24 screens.
Mr. Alanskas: What percentage of seats need to be filled for you to stay in business?
Mr. Sanchez: If you are concerned about the specific formula, I can tell you the
success rate has caused us to put on more parking stalls and as opposed
to being concerned about the volume, it is a performer that is based on
how much money Dallas has spent. It is a division that does not report
to me so I cannot tell you but I can find out and get it to you.
14911
Mr. Alanskas: Are there any AMC theaters within a two to three mile radius of the
one in Dallas?
New Mr. Sanchez: No, I believe the closest is seven but I can verify that as well.
Mr. Alanskas: Are there any theaters or complexes that have our situation where only
two miles away you have another complex?
Mr. Sanchez: We are proposing several of those throughout the country.
Mr. Alanskas: But not right now?
Mr. Sanchez: The Dallas was the first and it is about a year old and this project will
take almost a year to put together.
Mr. Morrow: The Grand Theater is that in Texas?
Mr. Sanchez: Yes it is in Texas.
Mr. Morrow: That is probably the oldest operating one you have?
Mr. Sanchez: Yes.
Mr. Morrow: You mentioned about the Police Chiefs. How about other aspects of
'�•► crimes or other disturbances. Anyone in that City that could speak to
that? Has this done anything to enhance their City and surrounding
area as opposed to crime or disturbances?
Mr. Sanchez: I can tell you unequivocally about the letter from the Police Chief
because we presented it in Illinois during the meeting in Chicago that
we were participating in a month ago and we can have that
documentation tomorrow for you. Whether we can go to anyone else
in Dallas to talk about the theater, I can find out for you.
Mr. Morrow: I would just like a little broader picture of the impact of the theater,
positively or negatively or whatever.
Mr. Sanchez: I can do homework on that for you.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Jonna did you have other comments you wanted to make?
Mr. Jonna: Just some closing remarks. I sincerely believe the proposal you have
seen this evening is unique. There is no question there is not a project
in the community that would rival this project. I think it is also
significant that we tried to do a theme development, an entertainment
14912
theme. All of the uses in the project support one another, whether it is
food and beverage, whether it is the entertainment product. We are
also considering possibly a book store, maybe a hotel is a possibility on
the north end of the site, but everything would serve to underpin the
theme that we have created, and it is well thought out. I think in
executing a theme type of development, it will have a symbolic
relationship, and all of the users will feed off one another. I think it is
also significant to note, as you know there is a lot of retail on Haggerty
corridor. You have power centers, you have home improvement
stores, you have Meijers, you have a myriad of retails, you have
Incredible Universe, etc. This, I believe, compliments the Haggerty
corridor. It doesn't repeat other retails. It is not a power center. It is
not a strip center. It is an entertainment theme campus development.
It also is very helpful that the parking demands for this particular
project are reciprocal to the rush hour demands of office and other
types of surrounding developments so there is a good balance in that
respect. It represents a significant investment as you know in the City
of Livonia. It creates employment opportunities. It also, in terms of
this campus development, it offers the architectural diversity, generous
open space, it is pedestrian friendly, and has outstanding vehicular
circulation, and it has capitalized on the natural land features of the
development. It is simply an elegant, integrated, entertainment campus
development. That is what this represents. Just one last remark for the
people that want to ask about the phenomena of AMC Theaters and the
`V•• multiplexes. Think of the home improvement chains. Think of
Incredible Universe, Office Max, Pet Smart, even Media Play we saw
this evening, Computer City. The buying public is demanding a vast
array of product, a vast array of selection and value in a superior
environment. This is part of an evolution that is occurring in the retail
and entertainment. In short, we believe that this is clearly a feather in
the community's cap. It will draw visitors and will fill restaurants. It
will compliment the corridor. It will be aesthetically pleasing. It is
what we consider well conceived and well executed.
Mr. Alanskas: I just want to give you a hypothetical question because you are saying
this is a place where people can come and go to dinner and go to the
theater. Let's say I am with my family at J. Alexander's and I have ten
minutes before the show. How far of a walk is it to go from there to
the theater?
Mr. Jonna: It is probably a two minute walk.
Mr. Alanskas: It would be better to walk than drive?
14913
Mr. Sanchez: That is the purpose of the pedestrian walkway is that you can in a
matter of two to two and a half minutes reach the theaters.
Mr. Alanskas: So what if the parking space is almost full and I have to park at the
very back of your lot, how far would we have to walk?
Mr. Sanchez: You would still be in the three to four minute range.
Mr. Engebretson: This letter writer that we referred to earlier raised an issue I would like
to inquire about. She gives the impression there is some kind of a tax
break being offered to you on this property and that you apparently
failed to achieve such a tax break with other communities. Can you
comment on that issue?
Mr. Sanchez: I haven't heard of a tax break. It is a shock to me. It has never been
discussed, and I don't understand what she means.
Mr. Engebretson: You haven't made any such request and you have no intention to do
so?
Mr. Sanchez: Absolutely not.
Mr. LaPine: In your concept as compared to Southfield's concept as far as the
restaurant part, their argument was they wanted the restaurants as close
``— as possible to the theater because it was more conducive for people to
go to the restaurant. Mr. Nick Banda, the City Planner, whom I had
my meeting with, said they found that people have a tendency, and I
have to agree with him, that people aren't going to walk from this
corner up to that theater. They are going to jump back into their car
and drive. It is just the way people are nowadays. If I can't get a
parking spot in front of that building, I am not going to go to that
store. I will go another half mile down the street. The other thing I
wanted to tell you, the material that you are using in this theater is not
anywhere near what they are building in Southfield. They told me their
building was being built out of glass and marble. As I remember
somebody told us we are bringing Cadillacs and Lincolns into Livonia
not Volkswagens. I am not saying this is a Volkswagen. I am happy
for AMC Theaters. I hope they stay successful but I don't think we are
getting the type of construction here that I believe other communities
are getting in this same type of building. I am only going by what I saw
today.
Mr. Engebretson: At this time we will go to the audience to hear from anyone that wishes
to speak for or against this proposal.
14914
Ray Tent, 18051 Deering: Good evening ladies and gentlemen. I have been a resident
here for 45 years and I served on the Planning Commission for 13
years. I am here tonight as a former Planning Commissioner to speak
°g"' against this waiver proposal for the 20 screen complex, the last of our
prime land in Livonia. This is going to be a waiver use. Once you
permit a waiver use, that is it. You don't take a waiver use back. I
was involved with the rezoning of this property to C-2. Mary Walkon
was before us and the thing that was promised to us at that time is not
conducive with what we have here today, and I kind of regret that I did
give the supporting approval for the C-2 zoning. The 275 corridor and
its adjacent land has had its disappointments with development. First it
was the Source Club on Haggerty. They were only in business eight
months and replaced by Home Quarters that is struggling to exist and
will probably be driven out by Home Depot which is across the way.
Too many big block buildings are in this town. Watch for what is
going to happen to the Builders Square at Seven Mile. Then we have
the beautiful Victor Parkway, a jewel in the office complex. We will
soon be having a giant warehouse and a McDonalds Restaurant so we
can now write off the Victor Parkway as our pride and joy because the
developer chose to dump this particular project because he moved on
to Petoskey. We won one big one. That was the Duke Organization.
They entertained a petition and they entered into an agreement with
Schoolcraft College where they were going to build a series of high-rise
office buildings next to Schoolcraft College. Our big concern there
was the traffic. What is going to happen on Haggerty Road? What is
going to happen with the freeways? Mr. Engebretson was very much
involved with this and so were we. We didn't believe the traffic studies
because it would have gone ahead and gridlocked the City of Livonia.
It would have been another Troy. It would have been another
Haggerty Road out in Novi. We just couldn't satisfy all the traffic that
would be coming in. The gentleman mentioned in this complex that the
theaters would be such that it could contain all the traffic but once they
get inside they have to get out, and how do they get out? They have to
come into one of the roadways. What happened is we stuck to our
guns on the Duke issue and the Planning Commission recommended
denial. It was supported by the Council, and guess what, we don't
have that great big complex. I look at this as being one of those great
big giant complexes right on our border line. Now we have the
identical situation with this giant Hollywood complex that is being
proposed on the last of Livonia's prime location. I look on this as a sea
of ash flow that will run its course and wind up as a giant drive-in
theater or a parking lot for Bill Brown's Ford cars as they did on the
George Burns Theater on Plymouth Road because they will have no
other use for it. They can't tear it down and Bill Brown will park his
cars there and that will be our giant parking lot. Some good questions
14915
were raised by Mr. LaPine and some good comments by Mr.
Piercecchi. This is our concern. Who else are we going to drive out of
business here in this City? We work in a six mile radius. It is 36 square
miles. Six miles on each side. So the tentacle can reach out. It can
grab Laurel Park. It can grab Wonderland, and it will reach into
Northville and Farmington. It will gobble them up. What about the 20
screen complex at Twelve Mile and Telegraph. It has problems with
Southfield. It's residents object to it. I understand they are going to
go to court. I don't know if that is an AMC Theater or another chain.
Do we want to drive business out by poor development? Home
Quarters drove out Handy Andy on Middlebelt. China Coast stayed in
business three months, and guess what, that was a neat presentation
too. What are they going to do with an empty building there by the
racetrack that is strictly Chinese? We can't turn it into a hot dog stand
or anything else. We are trapped with it. We can't get rid of it. When
the development was before us and they said this is General Mills, we
do big business, we did a study on it, we are going to make it work,
and guess what it was in business three months and it is gone because
they couldn't cut their profit margin. Isn't that something? They
couldn't cut their profit margin in three months. That is terrible. The
Source Club gave a nice presentation on Haggerty Road. They said it
is going to be here for a long time. Guess what, eight months, and it
was gone. Home Quarters took it over and Home Quarters is probably
having a lot of problems there because you can't find too many people
''.r• in the store because the one across the street has taken care of that.
Then we have the George Burns Theater which I have covered. Let's
consider our neighbors to the west, Northville Township. They have a
splendid residential development and they will be impacted by this
Hollywood USA or the Livonia Sunset Strip or maybe the Asphalt
Jungle. Let's not make another Victor Park mistake and let ambitious
developers unload his land at the City's expense with a mediocre
development to make a quick buck. Remember a waiver use is forever.
Once you give it, you don't get it back. So safety, health and welfare is
a good excuse. All of the years on the Commission there were two
petitions that I voted yes for and I wish I hadn't. One of them is the
C-2 zoning because I was promised Arpege and I'm not getting
Arpege, and that is this development here, and the other one was the
Home Quarters and China Coast. That was a big fiasco there because
poor Handy Andy, they are gone. Thank you, stand tall and deny this
waiver use.
Karen Woodside: I am the Planning Commission Chairman for Northville Township, and
I am here this evening on behalf of the Board of Trustees and the
Planning Commission of Northville Township. I have written you a
letter. We have some concerns regarding this development. Obviously
14916
the Haggerty Road Corridor Study that was done last year that you
cooperated in, we had traffic concerns and I have with me this evening
Mr. Pete Lamoreaux, our Traffic Consultant. I have enumerated most
v.ka` of our concerns in the letter. However, this particular parcel I looked
at this plan on Saturday and although the developer indicates that he
has given a lot of open space, most of them are in the form of detention
ponds and there is a 8 foot buffer around the outside. We have a very
high quality residential development at Seven Mile and Haggerty Road
called Windridge Subdivision, and we received petitions from those
residents asking us to do something. Obviously we can't, except come
to you as a good neighbor. We would ask you if you do choose to
approve this use, that you would do something similar to Laurel Park in
terms of buffering. That was buffering the residential properties around
that use successfully, but the 8 foot buffer that they have proposed is
simply inadequate. We feel this is not compatible with the existing land
uses in that area. We would like to see harmonious development. We
are obviously concerned with the traffic. It takes almost five light
changes to get off west off the I-275 freeway to get into Northville
Township. In this particular site plan, despite some of the things that
were said this evening, the intensity of this land use, this is one of the
most intense site plans that I have seen. Every square inch practically is
built, and despite the representations this evening by the petitioner,
there is not sufficient buffering or greenbelt. He is indicating that most
of them are detention ponds where something couldn't be built anyway,
'Now and I don't know if that is within keeping with your ordinance or not.
Is that counted towards open space? I am not sure. Also, we had
concerns about the long term viability of a cinema theater as well, and
we are concerned about another big box building. Also, we had
concerns about the alignment, the driveway placement, and obviously I
have some concerns in this letter enumerated for traffic impact study
and litigation. We have not had an opportunity to review this traffic
study, and we would ask that if you are going to act on this, that we
have some opportunity to put some feedback into that hearing,
whenever that might be, from our traffic consultant. We were unaware
that Wayne County had agreed to all these things so we would like the
opportunity to review that and address them intelligently. I also want
to let you know that right now, today is the second day, and tomorrow
we are going to have a continuing workshop to develop our master
plan in Northville Township. Obviously we are facing a lot of
development, and we had invited members of the Commission and we
had sent notices to the City of Livonia and we certainly would
appreciate your input, and tomorrow it is going to run from nine
o'clock in the morning until ten o'clock at night. Another intense day.
We have a similar day on Saturday, and today was our second day of
the workshop. Tomorrow morning, I believe, is the surrounding
14917
communities input into this. There are a number of different topics that
are going to be heard throughout the day and then we will have a wrap-
up session in the evening, and if you can't make it we would appreciate
hearing from you in writing if you have some concerns because we are
formulating our new master plan. Other than that we would like you to
give us some input on the Quakertown area. We have an empty parcel
there, and we are looking at different land uses for that north of the
Oasis Golf Dome. Last time we met when that was zoned to office,
there were a lot of concerns from the Quakertown people. We would
like you to just keep that in mind and we would like to be able to
comment further if you are going to do this. Thank you very much.
Mr. Engebretson: John, the lady referred to several communications with the City, none
of which I have seen nor do I think anyone else here has. Are we in
receipt of those documents she referred to?
Mr. Nagy: In all due respect to the lady, I don't want to debate with her, but we
have not received anything in writing. I did get a call from a consultant
that works with her community shortly after the article appeared in the
Detroit News asking for an opportunity to come in and talk to me,
which we did. He advised me that they were trying to set up the
workshop that the Commissioner makes reference to, and this very
morning I received a call from Alan inviting me to the meeting and I
indicated a willingness to attend that meeting.
Mr. Engebretson: She further indicated that the Commissioners were invited to come. I
guess there is some serious breakdown in communications from your
staff to ours.
Ms. Woodside: I apologize. I was told by our consultants, our Planning Department
has been outsourced to McKenna& Associates and they indicated to
me that everyone had been notified in all the surrounding communities
and all boards had been invited.
Mr. Engebretson: You let them know that they failed to achieve their mission.
Ms. Woodside: I apologize.
Mr. Engebretson: The problem is you come in here making reference to things that didn't
happen and it puts us at a distinct disadvantage to even follow your
train of thought, and frankly I am somewhat offended by the fact that
you, not you personally, but Northville Township expresses concern
over what we are going to with 17 acres of land, when I don't
remember, and I have been here for eight years, and I don't remember
any discussion or dialogue from Northville Township as to what you
ti..
14918
did across the street. You want to talk about big box users that you
find offensive, I guess Meijers Thrifty Acres is not a big box. I guess
Home Depot is not a big box, but they are medium size boxes anyway.
I don't remember any dialogue on those kinds of issues. I just find this
really stunning that you would, I am not disturbed by the fact that you
would initiate the dialogue, I think it is a healthy thing to do but the
problem is that you didn't do it. You thought you did but you didn't,
and then to give us notice that there is a meeting tomorrow, some of us
work, some of us have other plans, it is unlikely that we are going to be
able to be at your meeting tomorrow, and then if we can't come to
your meeting to solicit written input regarding your master plan, how
the heck are we supposed to do that given the fact that we sit here in
isolation not knowing a single thing that is going on across Haggerty
Road, that you haven't shared your information with us and yet your
comment on how you further develop your master plan and then come
up here and oppose what is being proposed on our side of Haggerty
Road. I just don't understand any of that.
Ms. Woodside: I am sorry if you take offense at that. We thought we had established a
dialogue. I was not on the Commission at the time Home Depot was
considered by the Northville Planning Commission. I was on when
Meijers was. It was my indication at that time that we had discussed it
with the neighboring communities, and I think that is how it should be
done. That is how good neighbors relate and we want to make sure
'041' that we have mutually beneficial developments, and I came here tonight
as an ambassador from Northville Township and I hope you take it in
that vein and we did try to get those notices out. We have an actual
schedule that was printed in a chart form and I am sorry if you didn't
receive it. It was my understanding when I talked to our consultants
that he had talked to Mr. Nagy and I thought that all those things were
taken care of.
Mr. Engebretson: Speaking to Mr. Nagy and sending a letter are not the same thing.
Ms. Woodside: I think there was a miscommunication and I apologize. However, if
you do have any information it is going to be something that is going to
be ongoing. We are going to take all the dialogue that comes out of
these things and I will make sure that you personally receive charts on
everything that was discussed, and if you have any input into that, I
would appreciate it if you could let me know and we will certainly
consider your comments. We are trying to do that with Plymouth
Township and Novi and Farmington Hills. Everyone was supposed to
be notified. I do apologize for that.
14919
Mr. Engebretson: Did you have the impression that the communication did occur with
those other communities? Did they all show up?
Ms. Woodside: Actually the response was very poor overall, and we had planned times,
you know people do work during the day, and we tried to have wrap-
up sessions at night, and obviously I am not there this evening so I am
not sure. I just hope it went better than the Saturday one.
Mr. Engebretson: I have a feeling that you have some serious business to conduct with
this McKenna group.
Mr. McCann: I think you raised some good points and I appreciate you coming
tonight. I think it is more appropriate to deal with what we are dealing
with here tonight. There are people here. It is getting late. Two of the
things you stated I think are valid concerns. The 8 foot buffer zone,
when we get back to it I would like Mr. Jonna to address and improve
that situation, but you suggested there was a problem with road
alignment. Can you elaborate what your concerns were there?
Ms. Woodside: I think that may have been clarified. That is why I wanted to see the
Wayne County letter today that they had indicated that it was going to
align south of Seven Mile. It was my understanding that was part of
the problem that the two driveways didn't align but I think they
indicated that may have been revised.
Mr. McCann: Mr. Nagy, is that correct they are aligning now and the driveways
appear to be in appropriate placements?
Mr. Nagy: Exactly.
Mr. LaPine: I am glad you showed up tonight. I am glad someone from Northville
was here because I think we have to work cooperatively. Both sides of
that road are being developed. No matter what we hear here tonight,
there is going to be a tremendous amount of traffic on Haggerty Road
especially with just one mile down the road at Six Mile and Haggerty
where a new shopping center is going in there. No matter how you
look at it that impact is going to be all up and down that road and us in
Livonia and you in Northville, we are going to get the brunt of it no
matter what anyone tells you. We are going to get people from other
communities but who has to suffer, the people that live in close
proximity to this location. Have you had a traffic study along that
corridor?
Ms. Woodside: This is Pete Lamoreaux our traffic consultant.
14920
Pete Lamoreaux: Just briefly we have not done a specific corridor study if that is what
you are talking about for Haggerty. We have reviewed obviously
different impact studies that have come in over the last couple of years
for developments along Haggerty and have relied on the accuracy and
corrections to those reports to provide a picture projection of how
conditions would be along the corridor.
Mr. LaPine: Mr. Nagy, at our study session I asked you to contact people in
Northville to see if we could get a copy of any studies they had. Did
we get that?
Mr. Nagy: No we didn't because of their scheduling of the master plan review. As
I indicated I did get a call from a gentleman from McKenna indicating
they were going to set up the workshop to review their future land use
plan projection along the corridor. He did get back to me and let me
know the date and indicated it was tentative for Wednesday of this
week, which would have been the day after our meeting. It was my
intention to bring that information back to the Planning Commission
after they scheduled the workshop.
Mr. LaPine: What does that have to do with a traffic study that was done one or
two years ago?
Mr. Nagy: That was not my understanding of what you were looking for.
Mr. LaPine: Do you have those types of studies?
Ms. Woodside: We have those available.
Mr. LaPine: Could you forward them to us?
Ms. Woodside: Certainly. I do want to indicate to the Commissioners that I grew up in
Livonia, I graduated from Bentley, my parents still live here, my in-laws
live here, and I see it as a large community and I want to make sure we
continue to work together. I think it is important because otherwise we
are going to have gridlock and I can't go back and see my mom and
dad.
Mr. Piercecchi: I am very pleased that you came here tonight too because we are
neighbors, and in my notes I have how will it affect the property values
across the street. That is a beautiful complex that you have there west
of our boundaries and we don't want to see anything happen to that. I
would also like to reference the Six Mile/Haggerty area. That is going
to impact Livonia quite severely because you are putting in a lot of
14921
stores. Have you consulted our planner on plans and how you can
perhaps lessen the impact of that on traffic and things of that nature?
Ms. Woodside: I am not certain if our consultant has. They usually do. Have you
discussed it with Mr. Strader Mr. Nagy?
Mr. Nagy: No I have not.
Mr. Piercecchi: See cooperation goes both ways.
Ms. Woodside: I apologize. We will certainly straighten up these lines of
communication. I became Chairman of the Commission in January of
this year and I am trying very hard to make sure this continues and I
will certainly look into this communication problem.
Mr. McCann: I am a little concerned. The question I have, you and your traffic
planner have discussed concerns about the traffic, my experience has
been that movie theaters, which is the majority of this use, are generally
after 6:00 p.m. and intense on the weekend as opposed to the normal
business time. This is commercial property and it would seem to me
this would create a lessening effect because theaters have very little use
during the day and the description of this is the theaters will have
multiple times with 20 theaters. The idea is you can have four different
shows but they are running every 15 or 20 minutes so there is constant
traffic coming and going in the evening hours and that would dissipate
the amount of the use. It would seem to me that this would be a
preferable use to the neighbors in that it would not create, when they
are trying to get to work and they are trying to get home from work, it
would not be putting any burden on the population.
Ms. Woodside: Friday evenings probably and our concern is possibly on Saturdays. I
agree with you that the timing issue on that, a movie complex does
have some positive things but then people all going to dinner at the
restaurants at the same time, it is an entertainment complex no matter
what semantics you use. I would ask you to be mindful of the traffic
impact and just show consideration for the neighbors if you decide to
do that. I look forward to working with you and talking back and forth
in the future.
Mr. Morrow: I thought I heard Mr. Jonna say there might be something developed
south of the Meijers site. Is there anything in the works for that area?
Ms. Woodside: Yes pursuant to a Consent Judgment we have what is called the
Abarobbi Project, and I am not sure what is going to happen at this
14922
point. I did indicate that in my letter, and we can let you know a little
more when those details are finalized by the Court.
Mr. Morrow: The reason I bring that up you mentioned gridlock and obviously traffic
is a major concern here. We have to look very carefully at that because
right now the gridlock in Detroit is Telegraph and Twelve Mile and we
don't want to have Eight Mile and Haggerty becoming number one.
You say that is in the letter?
Ms. Woodside: That is correct. I believe it is mentioned in here.
Mr. Engebretson: Is that the letter you were referring to earlier tonight?
Ms. Woodside: It is a three page letter that I wrote to you. I just passed it down.
Mr. Engebretson: Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not objecting to your being
here to participate. I just don't like surprises, and regrettable it appears
we both have been surprised. You thought some things had happened.
It didn't happen. We then can't really understand your point of
reference particularly as it comes to commenting on details on what
goes on one side of Haggerty Road being okay while that same type of
activity on the other side of Haggerty Road may not be okay, all of
which may be explained in your letter, but unfortunately, without
�.• beating a dead horse here, I want to make sure that you leave with the
understanding your presence here is most welcome and we look
forward to getting this additional information that you offered to send
over.
Ms. Woodside: It certainly will and I apologize. The McKenna Group has done an
excellent job for us overall and I am sorry this happened.
James Robert Jackobson: I have been a Livonia resident for 23 years and basically I am
hoping that the Planning Commission will vote this down and will not
allow them to build that site. If you look in the Detroit Free Press,
Tuesday's edition, you will see there are approximately 60 some either
screens or movies available for screens to be shown. I don't think
Livonia needs an additional 20 including Plymouth Penn, Canton
General Cinema, Novi Town Center, Quo Vadis in Westland,
Farmington Civic, Showcase Westland and Twelve Oaks. I don't think
Livonia needs an additional movie theater complex whether it be one
screen or 20 screens. The AMC representative, I believe it was,
compared Livonia to San Diego and Dallas. I don't believe we should
be compared to them.
John Garabelle: I live in Windridge, which is a new sub about five months old.
14923
Mr. Engebretson: Which Windridge, Livonia or Northville Township?
Mr. Garabelle: Northville Township. I worked in Livonia for 24 years and have lived
in Farmington Hills for 17 years and I just moved to Northville. Our
sub is located right across from this proposed development. We have
at Eight and Haggerty Meijers, and at Seven and Haggerty Home
Depot. I live with the traffic congestion now. I don't believe what
they are saying that even if they put a five boulevard in there and even
if they put two additional exits up there, that we are going to control it.
Even with a light at our subdivision, we have two exits from our
subdivision, one on Haggerty, which is towards the end of our
complex, and one onto Seven Mile Road, there is going to be
congestion there. I am one of the people that signed the petition that
we went to Northville with. We are 12 homeowners of a future 100.
We want to express our concerns for this 35 acre development. We
feel it is going to bring crime into the area plus traffic congestion. We
have a problem now with the Meijer traffic cutting through our
subdivision. In my mind, this will even make it worse because if they
can't go south on Haggerty to Seven, they are going to go through our
sub, which is the problem we have now. Again, please hear our
concerns that we have a fear of crime, and there is a crime problem
now at Meijers, and also for the traffic. We are your neighbors so
please keep this in mind when you make your decision and we would
New like you not to accept this proposal.
Mr. McCann: Sir, one of the things that concerns me is I understand you have a new
home, you are very concerned about the traffic. We all are in that area.
The majority of the land here is already zoned C-2 and it is going to be
developed as your own Planning Commissioner got up and stated on
the record. The property just south of Meijers is going to be developed
in a commercial manner because they ended up in court on it and
decided that the developer has certain rights. He has the ability to
develop this in a commercial manner and that is what we have to look
at, is it appropriate in a commercial zone? The other things are
shopping malls. There are numerous things that can go in a commercial
setting. They are all going to generate traffic. They are all going to
generate the problems we have. If you can address to us what specific
concerns you have against the theater complex or the mall or the site
plan as opposed to just development because there is going to be
development. It is just a question as what kind.
Mr. Garabelle: I recognize that and I realized when I bought in that subdivision that I
would have traffic there but I love the area. My problem is with 5,000
seats, there will be a lot of cars coming in at night. I would rather have
14924
an office building during the day that the people leave in the evening.
The problem I have is if they are going to be there at night, I have kids,
- there are many kids in the subdivision and actually you talked about the
types of movies that could be shown there could create a problem and
my fears are they will walk right over to our subdivision. That is
basically the concern I have with the theater. I would rather have
something else there.
Mr. McCann: Thank you. That is what I wanted.
Mr. Engebretson: Let me clarify a point. Mr. McCann referred to commercial zoning.
That doesn't mean offices. That means commercial. That means
probably something, not necessarily a Home Depot, but a retail type of
operation like that and many of them on a large parcel of land. So the
office reference that you made is highly unlikely to happen because it is
already zoned for commercial. The purpose for this waiver use is to
give recognition to the fact that a theater use is a more intense use than
the general commercial type of use and therefore needs to go through
this special waiver use process. Otherwise, to build a shopping center
there, that wouldn't require a waiver use. It would simply require site
plan approval and if they meet the ordinances of the City there is very
little that can prevent that from happening. Just be aware of that.
Mr. Garabelle: Thank you for your time and keep us in mind.
James Jakubczak, 15336 Blue Skies, Livonia: I have lived in Livonia 25 years now. You
talk about gridlock, I worked for 12 1/2 years in the Sterling
Heights/Troy area and if you want to see gridlock, see it at 7:00 a.m.
and 4:30 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. I feel the Commission should consider the
traffic patterns, additional personnel vehicles that will be coming
through for Phase I and Phase II. Also I feel the Commission should
consider what percentage of their capacity Wonderland AMC is
operating under right now and Laurel Park and what is the projected
capacity of AMC 20 unit section and what affect it would have on the
number of seats that would be utilized by customers of Wonderland and
Laurel Park. I feel by having a 20-seat theater, this will surely impact
the number of seats in those theaters and also I feel it might have an
impact on the shops in Laurel Park. I ask the Commission to please
look at those figures before making a decision.
Mr. Engebretson: Do you have some knowledge sir, some expertise that would cause you
to have a belief that if the movie theaters at Laurel Park were impacted,
that would have some domino effect?
14925
Mr. Jakubczak: I am a CPA. I have been in practice for 27 years and based on my
review of financial statements of different companies and also I know
AMC probably has a Marketing Department which can tell you seating
capacity by day of the week and also what the ramifications of an
additional theater would be on the other theaters. I believe that is all
available and should be considered before any decision is made.
Mr. Engebretson: I was referring to your reference to the effect of a diminished
attendance at the movie theaters in Laurel Park having some negative
impact on the other retailers there. I thought that was what you had
said.
Mr. Jakubczak: No I don't have any specific knowledge of that but I do know that the
Laurel Park theaters are quite crowded. Customers from the other
shops go into Laurel Park theaters and visa versa and that does have a
severe impact on that area also.
Pat Goss: Director of Human Resources for Technicolor Video Services. We
bought the business from CBS Fox in 1987 so there is no CBS at the
beginning of the name. We are an entertainment industry. We make
videos for Disney and Warner Brothers among others, and we have a
factory with about 800 employees under about 290,000 sq. ft. and we
certainly understand the need for development in the area, particularly
*ft. the need for restaurants and entertainment facilities, etc. so we are not
here to speak against but we do have some concerns that we would like
to insure do get addressed. I will pass them out to you and we can go
over them. Some of them have been addressed in the presentation.
One of them is that the road that was going to be part of the entrance in
the drawing. Technicolor now has the responsibility for maintenance of
that road and service drive. With the construction and additional truck
traffic, and now as we find out, the usage of that road, we certainly are
concerned about any additional cost that we will have to bear for
maintenance of the service drive, which exits on Haggerty Road. We
also have a brick sign that is next to that service drive, and from the
plans we saw it is apparent that that sign will need to be moved, and
who will be responsible for the movement and/or extensive moving of
our sign? The traffic patterns really need to get looked at thoroughly.
Our employees work seven days a week if timing is a issue. We work
seven days a week across three shifts and right now if you don't think
you have gridlock, you do. Try to make a left hand turn out of Big
Boys on Haggerty about noon and you will find it will take you about
20 minutes or let's say a left hand turn on Seven Mile Road at 5:00 on
a Friday afternoon. It is already a problem and we are concerned about
our employees being able to get to work and leave work efficiently.
Parking issues. In the past, Technicolor has facilities all over the world
14926
even in California, but most of it is in the Detroit area right now. We
are concerned about the fact that if the parking is not sufficient, we will
'ew get the overflow. You guys have all heard about piracy of videos.
That is a really strong concern and mandatory in our business. We
would not be in business if we could not maintain the security of those
videos before they are released. The development in back presents a
whole bunch of new issues for us from the security perspective and a
lot of additional expense, camera lighting, etc. We would like to
request that the Commission require an appropriate boundary barrier to
separate its business from any development. We have talked about that
in our proposal here. The ponds that there will be some drainage on,
there are some questions on whether they will be big enough to handle
any runoff. I think those are being addressed. One question we had in
mind was that the quality of the water and drainage into the ponds with
the oil from the asphalt and antifreeze from cars, etc., when you call
them wetlands, what might happen to those. I guess it is up to other
people to look at that. We are concerned about the personal safety of
patrons and pedestrians in the area that may have access to the ponds,
particularly the southern most one. The ponds are shallow. The
bottoms are composed of silt and other sentiment and could be
considered dangerous to anyone that might decide to take a dip in
there. The property lines divide on one of the ponds halfway through
between Technicolor and the development, and again, that adds to our
security concerns about how that might be handled. Again, we are not
'tow interested in stopping progress particularly in the entertainment
industry and it is a growing industry but we do feel some of our
concerns and issues should be shared.
Mr. LaPine: When I checked out this parcel I came off Haggerty Road and I drove
up the road and I came up to the back of your building. There is a gate
across there. Does that road go all around the back of
Mr. Goss: No.
Mr. Nagy: It is a private road.
Mr. LaPine: It is a private road so that cannot be used by this complex.
Mr. Goss: As far as we know we are responsible for maintaining it.
Mr. Engebretson: We appreciate the effort you put into this.
Michael Bristol, 19229 Shadyside: I live two to three miles down Seven Mile at
Farmington Road. We are concerned about having more movie
theaters than we need in our general area so I am against the movie
14927
plan itself I would prefer some other usage. Beyond that, dealing with
the specifics of this proposal. I don't like to see us adding to more
,` traffic on Seven Mile Road. The traffic flow needs to bring people off
the freeway, put them into this complex, and get them back on the
freeway. The only way to do that is re-using Seven Mile again with left
hand turns or some other situation. I would like to see nothing but
right hand turns in and out of this property, and have Eight Mile be the
major corridor for any eastbound traffic. I am concerned there will be a
lot of eastbound traffic coming down Seven Mile because 696 is quite a
ways to the north and 96 is quite a ways to the south so the eastbound
traffic is going to move towards my house and past a lot of
neighborhoods and of course right past Laurel Park Place. I would
think this proposal needs to include which way the people are turning
on and off I have heard center turn lanes mentioned quite a bit by the
developer. I am against those. They are dangerous. When people are
rushing to make the movie house, they don't want to miss the
beginning of the movie, the constant flow of probably 1,000 cars an
hour in and out of here. I didn't hear how many employees there
would be. It doesn't sound like a real high wage job. Beyond that, I
didn't like the phasing of the construction of the roads. There would
be a lot of road construction I understand and of course Eight Mile is
getting built up too. There is going to be a lot of construction there.
Why the phasing? If we are going to phase in the road construction,
does that mean we are not real confident about this being a successful
— location? If the developer wants to give a full commitment to this,
maybe we wouldn't need the phasing. They could just go ahead and
improve Haggerty Road the way it should be. I don't think we want a
string of 100 cars waiting to turn left. You might as well forget about
going to Home Depot. Home Depot might go out of business because
I would hate to try to make it to Home Depot when I have to fight the
traffic of the cinema complex and pretty soon I am going to start going
to a different Builders Square or somewhere. The roads just aren't
designed to handle it.
Mr. Engebretson: I would just like to mention that the phasing was the recommendation
of the County as it pertained to the complete development of the site
i.e., the restaurants that are planned to follow. They aren't initially a
part of the traffic proposal. What the County recommended in Phase I
and II would have to do with the theater complex. When the
restaurants would come on stream there would be some additional
work on the west side of Haggerty to allow safer turns in and out of
there. It is not something the developer proposed to do or not do.
They responded to Wayne County recommendations.
14928
Mr. Bristol: It still sounds marginal and I would like to bring that up for additional
study.
Gail Craigmiles: I am also a resident of the Windridge Subdivision in Northville
Township. Probably some of the things I am going to say are not going
to be new because I am last but I would just like to give my perspective
on them. The traffic I think has been talked around and around. I do
see that as a problem for a number of reasons. Maybe not in the
morning when people are going to work but in the evening. When you
have an accident on 275 anywhere from Eight Mile to M-14, what do
most people try to do? Get off the freeway and what is going to be
their route? Down Haggerty. Now with movies in and out and
business office buildings letting out. I ran into that problem taking my
children to school this morning. I am also concerned about the cut
through in my neighborhood. We are getting them now. If that is
going to be a congested intersection I can see that happening more and
more. Going along with that, I am concerned with something Mr.
LaPine brought up about what kind of movies, and what may result
from what they see on the movie screen. We have a dead-end at the
end of our subdivision. We already on weekends have people that park
there. We have found various items the next morning and I will let
your imagination tell you what the items have been. I can see people
trying to find an isolated place to go after a movie. Meijers already has
their problems with robberies. They are a 24-hour operation. Is that
Naar going to be a logical place for some people to go after the movie
theater? As far as traffic. If you have a really hot movie, and they are
talking about putting in extra lanes, is that then going to be backed up
into the normal lanes trying to get off I-275? How big are we going to
make this turn lane and is it going to accommodate the traffic in a fast
enough manner? I think conflict with other theaters is a valid point,
and I am not sure, they are telling you they are not trying to shut
anybody down, but they can't guarantee that, and 36 movie theaters is
a lot of movie theaters. Yes there are a lot of movies that come out but
I don't know if we can support 36 movies. I am not so much opposed
to some of the development. The restaurants I think are a good idea.
If you have ever tried to go out to dinner, especially on a weekend, and
find a restaurant that you don't have to wait for an hour in line, I think
that is a fine idea. One of the gentleman mentioned the big thing is all
the Office Depots and the other things that are springing up
everywhere. Are we saturating the market? I think we have all become
so pampered that we can't drive four or five miles to get something. I
don't know that we need something within a square mile radius to get
everything we need. I think we are saturating the market too much
with some of these things and some of these developments. They also
mentioned the type of movie they were going to show there. They
14929
weren't going to show any X rated or NC-17. I don't think you have
to have NC-17 or X rated to send the wrong message to children. PG
violence can send the wrong message to kids. I don't know if you can
exclude certain segments of movies that give the wrong idea. Mr.
McCann made a comment to one of my neighbors about the
development north of us, and I have to be honest with you, that was
one thing I questioned when I moved into that subdivision. I was told
it was wetlands. It will never be developed. Well guess what, it is
going to be developed. I am not opposed to part of the development.
I think development is good and as you mentioned Mr. McCann it is
going to happen. Something is going to go in there. I just don't think
we need 20 movie theaters to go in there. I think we could make better
choices. I also think with the congestion at Eight Mile, now we are
going to put it at Seven Mile, it is going to be at Six Mile too and I
happened to be down there gassing my car today and I read everything
that is going on at Six Mile. Now that corner is going to be just
unbelievable too, and it is the same thing. Do we need all this around
here? Can we not drive a few miles to find it elsewhere. I think we can
use the land for better development, for something that we really need
that would be a good joint effort between your City and ours. I have
only been a Northville resident for three months. We did as a
neighborhood what we thought we were supposed to do. We called
our City people and said we are opposed to part of this, what should
we do? We thought things were put into motion for you to be aware of
`'r what we felt, etc. I really have to reiterate some things that were said
earlier that I hope we can work in the community together on both
sides of the road.
Mr. Engebretson: We will be glad to do that as long as you don't hold us accountable for
what is going on at Six Mile and Haggerty over on your side.
James Haglethorne: I am also a resident of the Windridge Subdivision in Northville
Township. I really can't add too much more to what has been said
tonight other than one of my concerns is the lighting of this facility. I
would be expecting that a movie theater would have its last showing at
maybe eleven o'clock at night or a midnight show and that would
require the lights to be on until maybe two or three in the morning. I
am just curious as to the impact it would have on our subdivision
having the lights on in the parking lot. The other thing I heard tonight
there was a definite desire to have a campus type development here to
integrate the theater with the retail with the restaurants and I look at
this and we need to consider that part of that environment will be
adjoining a subdivision that I live in. I just wanted to point that out as
well.
14930
Mr. Engebretson: I would mention to you on the lighting issue, Livonia has some very
strong standards that deal with lighting standards. The height is limited
to 20 feet under most circumstances and wherever there is a possibility
of that light spilling over into a neighborhood there is a requirement for
some shielding. I am not trying to convince you that there won't be
some awareness from across the street that if all these parking lot lights
are all shining down, that you are not going to be aware of their
presence there but there is some significant effort made to minimize
whatever intrusion that has on you. That may not be particularly
comforting but it is something we are very aware of and depending on
whether this project goes, that would be something that we would pay
a lot of attention to. It wasn't mentioned to this point tonight but it is
something that we and the City Council always get into in great detail,
even with a small project much less a large one like this.
Mr. Haglethorne: HQ can be rather bright. That is what raised my concern.
Mr. Engebretson: Is HQ's lighting something that reaches over into Windridge
Subdivision?
Mr. Haglethorne: It is rather bright.
Mr. Engebretson: I find that interesting and I will look into that.
`ler' Mr. Tent: One comment to address Mr. McCann. The thing that concerned me
when Mr. McCann addressed the people from Windridge about the
zoning, it is true and it has been approved for C-2 and there are many
things that can be put in that area but this is a waiver use, which is a
very intense use, so that is the concern. This theater is going to be very
large and they can put in a small department store and we would have
no problem with that but waiver use goes with the land. It stays
forever, and that is the issue. A court case now, if they want to take us
to court that is my thinking. They could take us to court on a C-2
development but as far as a waiver use that is up to the City of Livonia
to determine whether we want to give a waiver use or not.
Mr. Engebretson: So there is no misunderstanding, you will recall while a waiver use does
in fact run with the land, if the waiver use that is granted becomes
abandoned for more than one year, that waiver use is lost. We have
seen some examples of that in recent times. Once the waiver use is
abandoned for one year, it is lost. It does run with the land as long as
the use is continued. I am sure you know that. I just want to make sure
everyone knew that.
14931
Mr. Tent: Once the zoning is approved, the developer can sell it to whoever he
wants to.
Mr. Sanchez: I have got some periodic feedback throughout the evening that some of
the residents that have stayed to hear all of the presentation have some
ambiguity about our intentions relative to Laurel Park and Wonderland
and I wanted to state again, so there were no questions or concerns,
AMC has no intentions of closing Laurel Park or Wonderland as part of
this proposal.
Mr. Jonna: On the remark relative to CBS Technicolor, we have been talking with
a Ron O'Leary there several months ago, maybe a year or two ago, and
had some discussions about signage and roads. Let me assure you that
the issues that were brought up this evening, I will meet with them
personally and I will address those issues. Most of them have been
addressed this evening, things like our flooding over into their parking
lot, the pond, and some of these items are easily addressed so I will
make contact with them. We hadn't heard from them when the
rezoning petition occurred and we hadn't heard from them recently and
so we kind of lost communication. I apologize for that but we will
address those concerns immediately.
Mr. Alanskas: I think from the conversation this evening we can see this is a very vast
and complex thing to do and I think, possibly it does have some
possibilities but there are so many studies that have to be done. I
would like to have (1) for the petitioner to come forth with a complete
and current study of traffic as it is now and a study of what it would be
after your complex would go in, if it were approved. I think we need
more data from AMC that you do have and could get for us in regards
to seating and how much you have to do to make it profitable for years
to come, etc. I think we need complete data from all three malls from
the general managers as to what their thoughts are on this project. I
would like to table this matter.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Alanskas, seconded by Mr. McCann and unanimously
approved, it was
#5-77-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City
Planning Commission on May 14, 1996 on Petition 96-4-2-14 by Walkon&
Associates requesting waiver use approval to construct a twenty screen movie
theater on property located north of Seven Mile Road between Haggerty Road
and the I-275 Expressway in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 6, the City Planning
Commission does hereby determine to table Petition 96-4-12-14 until May 21,
1996.
14932
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as
�.. amended.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. McCann: Mr. Chairman one of the other items that came up was the 8 foot berm.
That was another thing I had some concern about and I would like it
addressed.
Mr. Morrow: I am sure the gentleman from AMC is going to get back to us but I
made reference to someone in the City where the Grand Theater is so
at least we could be in touch with them.
Mr. LaPine: Mr. Jonna I hope that you move right along on this project because I
resent the fact that back in 1994 Mr. Walkon came in here selling us on
this fast track and he had this property he wanted to develop. I was
opposed to the rezoning to C-2. He had all these Cadillac stores that
were going to come in there, and it was going to be a great big
complex. From 1994 until today he has done nothing on that property.
Now he comes in with a theater. I hope we are not going to have the
same situation where everyone wants this on the fast track. I don't
want it on the fast track. I think we have to take time to study this to
'"" make sure we are getting what is good for Livonia. I mentioned this
the other night to the members of this Commission. Don't buy this
stuff when they come in, we have to have this now. If we don't get this
within the next two weeks, this project is going to die. That isn't going
to happen. The project in 1994 Mr. Walkon said he was ready to put
shovels in the ground, in two years nothing has happened. Now we get
another project here. I want you to tell us the truth. If you are moving
right along, let's move it along and don't come back here and just keep
dragging this thing on because I don't think we can do it in the short
time that has been suggested here tonight.
Mr. Piercecchi: I did my homework on this, and I got the minutes out that Mr. LaPine
referred to and that rezoning was really based on many, many different
conditions, two major department store, two book stores, a Bed and
Bath and no restaurants. I was wondering Mr. Jonna, what happened?
Mr. Engebretson: We will talk about that later Dan. We need to proceed with the public
hearings.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-4-2-15 by
Walkon& Associates requesting waiver use approval to construct a full service
14933
restaurant (J. Alexander's) to be located on the east side of Haggerty Road, north
of Seven Mile Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 6.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Miller we don't need a presentation. We are going to go
immediately to the petitioner. I see we have Mr. Carlin with us tonight.
John Carlin: Tonight I am going to speak for both of the restaurant applicants. We
will take the J. Alexander's first. Basically both of these restaurants are
really excited to be first a part of Livonia and certainly a part of the
entertainment complex that is proposed here as a joint development
with Mr. Jonna, AMC and the two restaurants. I think this is an
indication of the lifestyle that we have today, what is proposed here.
Today we like choices. We like to be able to get in the car and have a
choice as to where we are going to go, where we are going to dine,
what we are going to do, go to the theater or go to some other type of
entertainment. The two restaurants that are proposed here are two
very distinct restaurants. J. Alexander's is a chain of restaurants that is
operated by the Volunteer Capitol Corporation out of Nashville,
Tennessee. The restaurant they are going to build here is a different
type of dining experience that is already available in Livonia in that it is
a casual restaurant but it is an upscale restaurant. It features fresh
steaks, fresh fish, all fresh products, fresh mixed vegetables, etc. It is a
nice looking establishment. I have some photos. We are going to build
a 9200 sq. ft. stand-alone restaurant. Dave Hutchins is here, the
No"' architect, and he will address any building questions you have. It will
seat approximately 230. Our parking requirements on site will exceed
your requirements. The landscaping will exceed the requirements of
the ordinance. It is a different kind of restaurant than is here now. It is
different than what you have over at Victor Parkway and Seven Mile.
It is different than Cookers and Macaroni Grill. It is a different choice
that is available to the residents. One of the residents that was up here
earlier said she wants to be able to go to a restaurant here in the
Livonia area and not have to wait for an hour or so for a table. That is
an indication that you and the City Council have done a good job on
the restaurants you have allowed to come into the community and build
their restaurants. We think it is going to be a good addition and a good
mix with the theater and the other restaurant. We are here to answer
any questions.
Mr. Alanskas: If the movie complex theater was not approved, would you still want to
go forward with your petition for two restaurants?
Mr. Carlin: Yes.
Mr. Engebretson: So they are not dependent on each other?
14934
Mr. Carlin: No. We would prefer to do it as a total development.
r..
Mr. Engebretson: Does anyone need or want to see the proposed site plan? I think that is
appropriate because to act on this waiver use that includes approval of
the site plan as you know.
David Hutchins: I am the architect on the building.
(He presented the site plan and elevation plan)
Mr. Hutchins: A little bit of background on J. Alexander's and where it came from.
We are a company of Volunteer Capital Corporation, which is a
national Tennessee based corporation. They are on the New York
Stock Exchange. They are a Wendy's franchise. They have 68
Wendys in four states. That was their primary function up until five
years ago, and the CEO had always wanted to do an high-end quality
dinner house that would be complimentary to what their Wendys
function would be and would not be competitive with their Wendys. In
fact, they are in the same market so there is no overlap there. Currently
after five years, after the initial prototype freestanding restaurant in
Franklin, Tennessee, which is a suburb of Nashville, there are now ten
J. Alexander's. The most recent one opened in Lindhurst, which is a
suburb of Cleveland, Ohio about three weeks ago, and if anyone gets to
Toledo, there is one in Toledo that opened back in December and the
concept that we are proposing today is similar to both the Cleveland
and the Toledo store. The original concept, in terms of design, was
based on materials that people would be comfortable with in their
home, an environment that would be casual but it would be slightly
upscale. The materials that were selected initially were brick and
fieldstone, and we have integrated, since that time, stucco or dryvet.
The brick that we use is a standard for J. Alexander's. It is an oversize
brick. It is manufactured outside of Atlanta. It has a hand made
appearance to it. It has a little bit of a different texture to it than what
you would ordinarily see. (Mr. Hutchins then presented the floor plan)
Mr. LaPine: I don't see anything to separate the smoking from the non-smoking.
Mr. Hutchins: That is an operation feature. I have Ron Farmer who is the Director of
Development here and that is a question he could answer.
Ron Farmer, Director of Development: It is probably the same as any other restaurant in
Michigan where the staff would know the differentiation between
smoking and non-smoking.
14935
Mr. LaPine: If you are out in the open in an area that is supposed to be non-
smoking, you are getting smoke from smokers but that isn't a big point.
Mr. Farmer: Our mechanical system handles all that.
Mr. Hutchins: I am not sure exactly how operations designates the smoking and non-
smoking. It may not be the same for different restaurants.
Mr. LaPine: Do both of these restaurants at this location depend upon the theater
going in?
Mr. Hutchins: We tried to get the path work done so we could go ahead and get the
work started on our restaurant.
Mr. LaPine: Are you telling me the restaurants will go in no matter what happens
with the rest of the property?
Mr. Hutchins: That decision has to be made at the board level for J. Alexander's. Ron
Farmer would be the person that would address that.
Mr. Farmer: To answer your question, we presented this project with the theater
project being in existence. I am not saying we would do the project.
We, at this point in time, are dependent on the traffic that would
generate for us. We have never had to address the question. We have
v" participated the whole time during these negotiations that the theaters
would be there so we would definitely, should that not happen, have to
get with Mr. Jonna and see what could be worked out. We would have
to make a corporate decision whether we would proceed or not.
Mr. Carlin: One other issue on that, a lot of the access to the property and a lot of
other issues would depend on for example the revisions to the roads
and all of that is dependent upon getting the theater, and I am sure that
the general cost of developing the entire site is dependent upon the sale
of the property by Mr. Jonna to the three of us. I am sure he needs that
revenue in order to make those changes to the roads, the entrance,
parking, landscaping, the joint development of the property. I think
that it is nice to think yes we would go ahead but I think it would be
difficult for the developer to do that without the whole project going
ahead. That is the probably the best answer I think we can give.
Mr. LaPine: So buy the whole project or we don't buy anything basically?
Mr. Carlin: Mr. LaPine, I don't like to say that but I think it is the whole project
we are talking about.
14936
Mr. LaPine: Are both restaurants open at lunch time?
Mr. Farmer: They will be the usual hours for restaurants in Livonia.
Mr. Alanskas: I can't see proceeding with this any longer if it is depending upon the
theater. I think it should also be tabled. The question I had was in
regards to your patio structure, are there tables out there?
Mr. Farmer: Typically we have tables with umbrellas.
Mr. Alanskas: Are there speakers or music piped out there?
Mr. Farmer: There are speakers out there which are connected underneath the
canopy which plays the music that is in the restaurant.
Mr. Alanskas: At the same volume?
Mr. Farmer: No sir. There is volume control. This is predominately a wait area for
the overflow.
Mr. Morrow: As it relates to your signage, is it your intent to bring the signage back?
Mr. Hutchins: Absolutely, signage and landscaping. We had not considered doing
that at this time.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Hutchins, that lighting treatment you talked about on top of the
building, is it neon tubing that is simply going to produce some upward
lighting?
Mr. Hutchins: It is actually semi-circular.
Mr. Engebretson: Have you gone by Seven Mile and Victor Parkway where we have a
couple of famous restaurants with some considerable neon adornment,
Cantina Del Rio and Lone Star Steakhouse?
Mr. Hutchins: I am familiar with what Cantina Del Rio does.
Mr. Engebretson: You don't look like that, do you?
Mr. Hutchins: No we don't. The quality of construction represented here, you can
imagine the investment is very significant, and the image we are
projecting is a high end quality dinner house. We try to differentiate
ourselves by investment and by quality of materials, quality of service,
etc. We are trying to provide a higher quality than what you would see
14937
in any given market. The CEO would be quick to tell you we want to
be the high-end dinner house in any given market.
"taw Mr. Engebretson: I think it was referred to as upscale casual.
Mr. Carlin: I might point out one thing. J. Alexander's is very proud of the fact
that it has been chosen as one of the restaurants that is going in the new
Sommerset Collection in Troy, and that is under construction now. We
hope to open that in August. As you know the people in Troy have
done a remarkable job of bringing very high-end tenants into that
project so we are pleased that J. Alexander's is going to be one of
those restaurants.
Mr. LaPine: Does that mean that the two commercial buildings we have left here,
we are going to get high-end people going in there?
Mr. Carlin: I have no idea what is going in there.
Mr. Engebretson: Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against this
proposed waiver use.
Mr. LaPine: I would offer a tabling resolution with an open end date because I don't
think we can act on any of the restaurants or the liquor license until we
decide what we want to do with the theaters. Apparently everything
r,,,. depends on what happens with the theaters. If the theaters don't go
forward, we may be wasting our time going on with these other things.
Mr. McCann: What I would suggest, and I agree with Mr. LaPine's logic, that we
table it along with the other one however it would follow in
progression if we didn't come up with a solution at the May 31 meeting
and decide we have to table it again for whatsoever reason, we
wouldn't deal with this problem, we would table it along with it or if
we did come to a conclusion at the May 31 meeting, then it would
automatically go on.
Mr. Carlin: That would be preferred by us to tag along.
Mr. McCann: We don't necessarily have to deal with it if we don't come to a
resolution on the theater.
Mr. LaPine: I made a motion to table with an open end date.
There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr.
Engebretson, Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-4-2-15 closed.
14938
On a motion duly made Mr. LaPine, and seconded by Mr. Piercecchi , it was
#5-78-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City
Planning Commission on May 14, 1996 on Petition 96-4-2-15 by Walkon&
Associates requesting waiver use approval to construct a full service restaurant
(J. Alexander's)to be located on the east side of Haggerty Road, north of
Seven Mile Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 6, the City Planning
Commission does hereby determinate to table Petition 96-4-2-15 to date
uncertain.
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as
amended.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Blomberg, LaPine, McCann, Piercecchi, Morrow, Engebretson
NAYS: Alanskas
ABSENT: None
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Engebretson: I think we can tell you that when that theater issue is disposed of, that
you will get right on the agenda. What has happened here has not put
you into limbo. It may just have put you a week or two behind the
theaters as I understand it.
Mr. Carlin: I guess what I was hearing was not so much a concern about the
restaurants, I am hearing all the concerns about the theater, and I was
hoping that you would at least tag us along so that at your study
session if you resolved the theater, then we could all go back on the
same agenda to the next meeting when you will vote and then we can
have it resolved rather than you coming back, voting on the theater and
then we have to come back.
Mr. Engebretson: I think that could happen. Next Tuesday if we resolve the theater issue
and put it on the voting meeting that follows, I don't know any reason
in the world why we can't put this item on for resolution at the same
time. Let me just tell you from my point of view Mr. Hutchins has
made a magnificent presentation. I think that there is a lot of evidence
that a restaurant like this will work here in Livonia but what the
gentleman from Alexander's told us that they are dependent upon each
other, causes me to withhold that support until we determine whether
or not we are going to have success with the theaters because as we all
14939
know, if this waiver use is granted, lots of things can change and
happen and we may not end up with a J. Alexander's. We could end
up with something there that we don't want if the waiver use was
`. approved. I don't think we are hearing any opposition to J.
Alexander's here at all.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-4-2-16 by
Walkon & Associates requesting waiver use approval to construct a full service
restaurant (J. Alexander's) to be located on the east side of Haggerty Road, north
of Seven Mile Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 6.
Mr. Engebretson: This is the Class C liquor license for the same location. Is there
anything you wish to add Mr. Carlin?
Mr. Carlin: Just that it is for the use of J. Alexander's.
Mr. Engebretson: Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against this
request?
Donald Sedestrom, 37637 Sherwood Court, Livonia: I have been a resident here for 16
years. I am speaking in opposition to the granting of a liquor license to
J. Alexander's and Champps when that comes up because to do so
would violate the high standards of the Livonia Zoning and Building
Codes. I had occasion today to go to the Planning Department and I
`.. saw the map, the revised version dated 5-3-96, and using a scale ruler I
measured the distance between the restaurants that are currently in
existence and the ones that are proposed. Right now, under the current
plan, J. Alexander's is about 180 feet from Macaroni Grill, and that
goes against the high standards set by the City when they established
the code that says there shall be no liquor license within 1000 feet
unless there is a variance granted. I did some more calculating and
found that the other restaurant, none of them are more than 500 feet
away from each other. I am not going to beat the traffic thing to death
because that has already been done tonight, but I think when you add a
liquor license in here with all the congestion that will be attended to
that intersection, I think that is a bit much. For that reason I urge you
not to grant a liquor license to this organization or to any other that is
in this complex because that is going to further complicate the traffic
problem and everything else that goes along with it.
Mr. Engebretson: Just so you understand what we are dealing with here. We don't really
have the authority to grant a liquor license. We are dealing with a
waiver use which paves the way for that to happen.
Mr. Sedestrom: I am urging you not to recommend that the liquor license be granted.
14940
Mr. McCann: Prior to discussion, I think the last gentleman's comments were very
close. One of my concerns about the project, although J. Alexander's
`w.• sounds absolutely wonderful, is the issuance of a Class C liquor license.
There is one at Cooker's, Macaroni Grill, etc. I have had some
concerns. I know we are going to table this. It is going to be my
recommendation at this point anyway to table this, but I did want to let
the petitioner know that is one of my concerns to put two more liquor
licenses in this area.
There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr.
Engebretson, Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-4-2-16 closed.
On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann, seconded by Mr. Alanskas and unanimously
approved, it was
#5-79-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City
Planning Commission on May 14, 1996 on Petition 96-4-2-16 by Walkon &
Associates requesting waiver use approval to utilize a Class C license for a
proposed restaurant to be located on the east side of Haggerty Road, north of
Seven Mile Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 6, the City Planning
Commission does hereby determine to table Petition 96-4-2-16 until date
uncertain.
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance#543,
as amended.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-4-2-17 by
Walkon& Associates requesting waiver use approval to construct a full
service restaurant (Champps Americana) to be located north of Seven Mile
Road, east of Haggerty Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 6.
Mr. Carlin: Just a little background on Champps. It is a national restaurant group.
They are part of the Daika International Group, which also runs the
Fudruckers concept and has operated that nationally as well as the
Champps concept. There are now 21 Champps Restaurants in eight
states. They are the casual theme. Again, an open kitchen. It is a
multi-level restaurant. It has a patio with a fireplace, which is a unique
presentation. Champps is also kind of a unique restaurant. It is truly a
part of the entertainment experience because it, itself is an
entertainment concept. It is a concept that involves the participation of
14941
the visual sports. There are big screens TVs. A lot of the restaurants
adjust to the themes. They have theme functions for Easter, for
Christmas, for various other holidays. There is a lot of activity. There
''- is a state-of-the-art video display. They use the karoke. There are a lot
of children friendly activity throughout the restaurant so it is kind of
fitting that Champps would be a part of this entertainment concept or
campus that is planned in this facility. The food is excellent. They have
a full menu with a lot of pastas, and steaks, hamburger sandwiches,
salads, etc. It too is a destination restaurant. There are a number of
them in the general vicinity, unfortunately none around here. It would
be approximately 9200 sq. ft. with 241 seats. It likewise will exceed
the parking requirements and the landscaping requirements. The
Champps Restaurant, I think, is going to create some energy in the
development. It is a totally different, unique type of restaurant. There
is nothing else like it in Livonia or environs. Again, it is a lifestyle
choice. It is a choice where people are going to go there to be
entertained and to be a part of the entertainment and the concept that
Champps presents. Steve Merz is here from Champps to address the
specific building issues with you. I am anticipating what is going to
happen with this request in a few minutes here but I do think we should
at least go through what the building is going to be and the materials,
etc.
Steven J. Merz, Director of Construction for Champps Americana, 2820 Kimberly Lane,
.. Minneapolis, Minnesota: We are excited about being able to secure
this pad as it backs up to the pond and as I walk through the different
elevations I think it will become apparent why. (He presented the
elevation and floor plans)
Mr. Piercecchi: You will have 240 seats?
Mr. Merz: 241 or 243
Mr. Piercecchi: Is the patio area included in the 241 seats?
Mr. Merz: Yes it is.
Mr. Piercecchi: The reason why you have your chimney so high?
Mr. Merz: The gentleman that designed the building is a Professor of Architect
that I have worked with for a number of years on not only this building
but a number of Dayton Hudson Department Stores. He felt this
character adds architectural definition.
Mr. Piercecchi: It looks to me like it adds an oriental look.
14942
Mr. Merz: Quite the contrary.
Mr. Alanskas: Do all your Champps have the karoke and the disc jockey?
Mr. Merz: Yes.
Mr. Alanskas: Would you say your vast customers would be between 21 and 35 as
opposed to older people?
Mr. Merz: Having opened four stores in the last seven months alone, and our
founder has a firm interest in us staying there for two weeks prior to
and three weeks after and then following up after about 90 days and
watching the clientele, I would say actually the clientele tends to be
closer to the 28 to 45 age.
Mr. Alanskas: Does your restaurant take reservations?
Mr. Merz: No.
Mr. LaPine: As I understand you said it was 240 seats including the patio?
Mr. Merz: Yes.
Mr. LaPine: Do you have a bar?
Mr. Merz: Yes.
Mr. Laine: How many seats does the bar hold or does that include the 240?
Mr. Merz: The bar itself has approximately 25 and yes you can be served food
there during lunch hour. That is included in the total.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Carlin we will give you the last word.
Mr. Carlin: I have nothing to add. Again, assuming that someone is going to put
this off, we are ready to proceed and I hate to say that it is a package
but it is a package because I talked to Mr. Jonna and it would be
difficult for him to develop just these two restaurant sites without the
whole package, and we understand that.
Mr. Engebretson: We do too and we appreciate you being so direct with us.
There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr.
Engebretson, Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-4-2-17 closed.
14943
On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann, seconded by Mr. LaPine and unanimously
r.. approved, it was
#5-80-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on May 14,
1996 by the City Planning Commission on Petition 96-4-2-17 by Walkon &
Associates requesting waiver use approval to construct a full service restaurant
(Champps Americana)to be located north of Seven Mile Road, east of
Haggerty Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 6, the City Planning
Commission does hereby determine to table Petition 96-4-2-17 until date
uncertain.
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as
amended.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-4-2-18 by
Walkon& Associates requesting waiver use approval to utilize a Class C
license for a proposed restaurant to be located north of Seven Mile Road, east
of Haggerty Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 6.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Carlin do you want to add anything?
Mr. Carlin: I have nothing further to add Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Engebretson: We will go to the audience.
Mr. Sedestrom: I think you would be setting a dangerous precedent here if you granted
this waiver request and that would make it easier to grant another one
later on.
Mr. Engebretson: We will make a note sir that your comments on the previous petition be
repeated in the public record of this petition.
Mr. Morrow: As it relates to the liquor license, is there a shortage in the City? Do
you have any concerns about being able to secure one, which may
cause a domino effect of not being able to go through with the
restaurant?
Mr. Carlin: The City has two licenses left in its quota. The City, once those two
licenses are issued, can then take its own census under the statute and I
discussed this matter with the Council before and they feel that there
14944
may be as many as four to six new licenses we could get under a
census. I am sure it wouldn't be hard to find somebody to pay for that
r..• census. In addition to that, once the two licenses are issued, then that
opens up a whole new area of licensing for the City and the applicants
and that is the Resort Class C license. The state won't give a Resort
Class C license to an applicant in a community where there is a license
in a quota. Last year in 1995, out of the 25 they had, they only issued
22. There are plenty of licenses available and nobody is not going to
build in Livonia because they can't get one.
Mr. McCann: It is your belief there are plenty of licenses available. What statistics
did you receive that would suggest Livonia would be entitled to four to
six more licenses?
Mr. Carlin: There is an increase in population over the 1990 census figures.
Mr. McCann: Did you discuss with your client transferring a resort license? You
have far exceeded the amount of investment into it. A license can be
transferred from outside the community, a resort license. Many times
restaurants close to I-275 can show enough connection to the travel
industry that they can get a resort license.
Mr. Carlin: That is an expensive proposition. They are currently selling for
$80,000 to $90,000.
Mr. McCann: Resort licenses?
Mr. Carlin: Transferable resort licenses.
Mr. Sedestrom: I think you would be setting a dangerous precedent here if you granted
this waiver request and that would make it easier to grant another one
later on.
Mr. Engebretson: Because of the proximity of the other ones?
Mr. Sedestrom: Because of the proximity and if it could happen here, it could happen
elsewhere in the community.
Mr. Engebretson: It has happened many times. There are two in Laurel Park that are 25
feet apart.
Mr. Sedestrom: Where does it end though?
Mr. Engebretson: You refer to a precedent and I am certainly not looking to be
argumentative with you but the precedent has been set and there are
14945
some shopping centers where they are literally across the hall from one
another.
Mr. Sedestrom: That doesn't make it necessarily right.
Mr. Engebretson: I understand your point sir.
There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr.
Engebretson, Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-4-2-18 closed.
On a motion duly made by Mr. LaPine, seconded by Mrs. Blomberg and unanimously
approved, it was
#5-81-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on May 14,
1996 by the City Planning Commission on Petition 96-4-2-18 by Walkon&
Associates requesting waiver use approval to utilize a Class C license for a
proposed restaurant to be located north of Seven Mile Road, east of Haggerty
Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 6, the City Planning Commission does
hereby determine to table Petition 96-4-2-18 until date uncertain.
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance#543, as
amended.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 724th Regular Meeting&
Public Hearings held on May 14, 1996 was adjourned at 11:45 p.m.
CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
4:/ � c `!
Robert Alanskas, Secretary
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ATTEST: :" i/V j
Jack Engebretsi n, Chairman
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