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Home My WebLink AboutPLANNING MINUTES 1992-06-16 12092 MINUTES OF THE 644th REGULAR MEETING AND PUBLIC HEARINGS HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA ,` On Tuesday, June 16, 1992, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its 644th Regular Meeting and Public Hearings in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan. Mr. Jack Engebretson, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. , with approximately 30 interested persons in the audience. Members present: Jack Engebretson Brenda Lee Fandrei R. Lee Morrow William LaPine Raymond Tent James C. McCann Robert Alanskas *Conrad Gniewek Members absent: None Messrs. John J. Nagy, Planning Director; H. G. Shane, Assistant Planning Director and Ralph Bakewell, Planner IV were also present. Mr. Engebretson informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda involves a rezoning request, this Commission only makes a recommendation to the City Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and decide the question. If a petition involves a waiver of use request and the request is denied, the petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision to the City Council; otherwise the petition is terminated. The Planning Commission holds the only public hearing on a preliminary plat and/or a vacating petition. Planning Commission resolutions become effective seven days after the resolutions are adopted. The Planning Commission has reviewed the petitions upon their filing and have been furnished by the staff with approving and denying resolutions. The Commission may use them or not use them depending upon the outcome of the hearing tonight. Mr. Engebretson introduced the new Planning Commissioner, Robert Alanskas. Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda is Petition 92-4-1-8 by Donald McLean for Disabled American Veterans Post #114 requesting to rezone property located on the northeast corner of Joy and Newburgh Roads in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 32 from RUF to C-1. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Nagy: To begin with we have received a new letter from the Disabled American Veterans in connection with this petition stating they are requesting an amendment of their petition to read as follows: Amend our Petition (92-4-1-8) of April 1, 1992, and have the west 300 feet of the section zoned C-1 and the remaining parcel of the property P for Parking. It is hoped that this will be more in keeping with your concern of rezoning the complete section to C-1. Furthermore, we hope and also believe that this will be satisfactory to the adjoining property owners. We have also received a letter from the Engineering Department stating they have no objections to this rezoning proposal. 12093 Mr. Engebretson: Would the petitioner please come forward and tell us what your plans are with this petition. Don McLean: I am Commander of Disabled American Veterans Chapter #114 and a resident of Livonia. The plans we have for the use of the property will be no different than what the church has had in the past. We wanted a memorial home to hold meetings where we can have our service officers available with an address so widows or orphans or disabled veterans will have a place to go to get forms filled out. We will not petition for a bingo license. We have a very successful bingo going at the VFW hall now and we do not want a liquor license. We have no use for that. Mrs. Fandrei: Do you serve food at your facility? Mr. McLean: No, we have no plans for serving food. Mrs. Fandrei: Basically it will just be an office? Mr. McLean: It will be an office and a meeting place. Mr. Tent: Mr. McLean, do you intend to do any renovations to the building because it has been used for a church? Mr. McLean: We will offer the pews for sale to any other religious group in the area and there is a slab of cement that is raised about eight inches that is roughly 4' x 12' that we would like to level down. That is the only renovations we intend. Mr. Tent: Then the building will be for the purpose you intend. There is one thing I am concerned about. I want you to locate in Livonia 'tw because we tried it three times so we want this to be successful. My concern is your first petition was at Seven Mile Road and Merriman and that did not go through. Then we had Seven Mile and Deering and I believe you purchased the property. The question I have, will you have to sell that property on Seven Mile and Deering, which is up for sale now, in order to purchase this? Mr. McLean: We will not have to sell it to purchase it but we will have to sell it. We are financially able to take over the building that we are petitioning for now. Mr. Tent: Good, that was my concern because at those two locations there was no zoning change required. If we grant this C-1 zoning, we are zoning this property to commercial and if anything should happen, because the zoning goes with the land, and you couldn't go through with the program, then it would be back for sale and someone would have a C-1 property in an area where we really don't want it. Mr. McLean: We realize that and we are financially able to go ahead with what we plan now. Mr. Alanskas: Will there be any signage on the front of the building? 12094 Mr. McLean: Just our logo for Disabled American Veterans. Mr. Alanskas: How big will that be? Mr. McLean: Approximately two foot in diameter. Mr. Alanskas: It will not be lighted? Mr. McLean: The only lighting we would like to apply for later, where the church sign stands, we would like to put up the American flag and a few other flags and have those lighted at all times. Mr. Alanskas: How high will that be? Mr. Alanskas: It depends on what the Zoning Board will let us go with. Mr. LaPine: Being a member of the VFW, I assume most veterans' organizations work the same way. Our hall is being used for bingo. I understand you will not have that, but we do have a bar there and we do serve food and we have Los Vegas nights. The Disabled American Veterans doesn't do those types of things? Mr. McLean: No sir and if we did we would use the VFW hall that we now hold our bingo in. Mr. LaPine: This strictly is a meeting hall and a hall for members of your organization to come who need help to get into the VA hospital, fill out forms and get benefits they are entitled to? Mr. McLean: That is correct sir. Mr. Morrow: It is my understanding this rezoning to C-1 will match the use they 'orrir require and not require a waiver. Is that correct? Mr. Nagy: It will require a waiver. Mrs. Fandrei: Mr. Nagy, since this is a rezoning petition, the sign will be coming back to us at another time? Mr. Nagy: It is not a control zone. They will, however, have to come back for waiver use approval, which would require site plan approval. Mrs. Fandrei: Can we require it to be coming back? Mr. Nagy: Yes in connection with the waiver use approval but not in connection with the rezoning proposal. Mrs. Fandrei: How can we see the sign? Mr. Nagy: Make it a condition of waiver use approval. Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Nagy, would it be fair to assume that if the sign was conforming, they would simply be issued a permit and if it was not a conforming sign, they would go to the Zoning Board of Appeals? 12095 Mr. Nagy: That is correct. Mr. Tent: Mr. Nagy, they have amended the petition for parking and C-1. Being there is almost five acres of land, what percentage would be parking? No . Mr. Nagy: In their legal description they are asking for C-1 moving from Newburgh Road in an easterly direction 300 feet and the balance of that parking, which is roughly half and half. Mr. Tent: So 2 1/2 acres of parking and 2 1/2 acres of C-l. Larry Schweiger: There is one thing to allay their fears about bars. The Disabled American Veterans, some of these men are on medications, they are diabetic, they are not allowed to drink, and as a consequence the Disabled American Veterans are not a bar type of organization. I would like to add this, back in 1776 after the revolutionary war, they gave the veteran a gun, a horse and a piece of property, in which to develop America. All we are asking for is a piece of property to help develop America. Mr. Engebretson: At this point we will go to the audience to see if anyone wishes to speak for or against this petition. Jim Varnas: I am the property owner of the RUF property. I built a new home directly east so I am right on the border dividing the two properties. I talked to the two gentlemen and why they went to the P was to try to help assure me of that buffer between my house and what is now the church. It is quite wooded. That is why I bought that parcel. What I am looking for is somewhat of an assurance. There are a lot of trees there and it is quite beautiful. If any %%D.' of those trees were taken down, it is not going to have the same look and, in my opinion, might devalue it. I have talked to the gentlemen and they are assuring me that they are not going to touch this wooded parcel but what I am looking for is something in writing. They are saying it will go to P. I would need that in writing from these gentlemen. Mr. Engebretson: I can put your mind to rest on that. That was our idea going to P and as far as any assurances, we could give you the best possible assurance because once that zoning occurs, it can never be changed without going through this process again. I would also want to make you aware that your concern, while I understand it, would be something that if they ever did want to intrude into that area with expansion of the facility for example, there would be a need to go through site plan approval and at that time, it would be appropriate to address some of those kinds of issues. Mr. Varnas: I fully trust them. I just wanted to make that point. I think they stated they were going to actually enhance the area. One other question, what would the hours be? Mr. McLean: We have no intentions of taking any trees down. We would like to clear out the brush because like he said it is a beautiful spot and 12096 it would be silly on our part to change it. Our hours, of course we hope to have somebody there during the day, but our meetings start at 7:00 or 7:30 at night and usually are over at 10:00. There was no one else in the audience wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 92-4-1-8 closed. On a motion duly made by Mr. Tent, seconded by Mr. Alanskas and unanimously approved, it was #6-384-92 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 16, 1992 on Petition 92-4-1-8 by Donald McLean for Disabled American Veterans Post #114 requesting to rezone property located on the northeast corner of Joy and Newburgh Roads in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 32 from RUF to C-1 and P, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 92-4-1-8, as revised, be approved for the following reasons: 1) That the proposed changes of zoning are compatible to and in harmony with the surrounding uses in the area. 2) That the proposed changes of zoning will provide for utilization of a vacant building. 3) That the proposed change of zoning to the P classification will provide for a buffer or transition zone between the C-1 zoning and residential uses to the east. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 23.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. Mr. Morrow: I want to go on the record that I am going to vote for this petition for two reasons. One, obviously I think the zoning is compatible and a good use for that area and secondly because Post #114 has almost become nomad in this City and we hope they can put down some roots and be good citizens and thank God for the VFW because we veterans that are in that position certainly appreciate their contribution. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 92-4-1-9 by the City Planning Commission, pursuant to Council Resolution #214-92, proposing to rezone property located on the east side of Hubbell Avenue, south of Plymouth Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 35 from C-2 to R-3. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Nagy: We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating their office has no objections to this rezoning proposal. 12097 Mr. Tent: Mr. Nagy, there was always a question here in the City about the assessment of property and about the taxes and I believe this is clarified now. I would like to take a minute and make this a matter of record. It is indicated that while this property is zoned C-2, it wasn't taxed at the C-2 zoning classification. The �• assessment is based on the use not the zoning. I thank you for clarifying that point. Mr. Engebretson: Thank you Mr. Tent. This petition comes about as a result of direction from the City Council where there was a similar petition across the street where there was a residential dwelling that existed on property that was zoned commercial, so that property owner, for a variety of reasons, petitioned the City to zone that property that would then conform to its use. When it went through the process, the City Council noticed there was a similar situation across the street and they then directed the Planning Commission to hold this public hearing and to make a determination as to whether or not that property should also be zoned residential to conform to its use. The big difference here is that across the street that petition was brought by the property owner. In this case the property owner is not the petitioner, the City is, so I will ask if the property owner is here and if so, would he care to make any comments Hugh Humpert, 11420 Hubbell: You answered a couple of my questions. I wondered how this came up. I was aware it was C-2. I have two lots there. There is a 30 foot lot by 113 and then a 70 foot by 113, which makes it 100' x 113' . My family did own the property extending all the way out to Plymouth Road and it has been sold to the Bone Yard. Right now I have had interest from the Bone Yard to buy my property as of last year for expanded parking because they can't expand on ‘Itr the building, I am told, because they don't have adequate parking. First they offered to buy that 30 foot section and I told them no and then they did make an offer for the whole property and I did turn them down and they did some extensive remodeling inside but as it stands we have had no further talks. I am assuming that C-2 is adequate zoning for parking so, therefore, I would like to leave it like it is for now unless there is a definite reason to change it. I assume this is why it all came up because I know my neighbor across the street did rezone his. That is basically it. The taxes, I understand, that it doesn't cost any more to go to the C-2 because I am residential as it stands. Mr. Engebretson: Part of the reason for that comment by Mr. Tent was when this first came to our attention we were interested in learning whether or not you were paying taxes based on the more intense commercial zoning and we have learned that you haven't, that you have been taxed based on use and not zoning. There have been other instances where down-zoning has occurred and people have legitimately complained that they have paid taxes for many years based on a more intense zoning and on the surface that would appear to be an unfair proposition. We just wanted to make sure that we were dealing with all the facts. Mr. Humpert: I was thinking of putting the house on residential and leaving that 30 foot strip as C-2 and I was told I was not being taxed for commercial anyway so I would like to leave it as it is. 12098 Mr. Tent: The zoning there, whether it is C-2 or R-3 would have no bearing on the parking. If they did acquire the land for parking, they would have to go for a zoning change anyways to P. This way here if it went to R-3, it is residential property and you could sell it as such. I don't think it would make much difference but it would be sew beneficial to you because it would never be put to the use of C-2 there. You could sell it to the Bone Yard and they could still get their parking. Mr. Humpert: They would have to rezone it if we rezoned it to residential right now. Mr. Tent: In any case they would have to have it rezoned. Mr. Engebretson: I don't think so Ray. There are parking lots in every C-2 zoned property in the City. Mr. Nagy: There would be no necessity for rezoning. C-2 can be used for parking. Mr. LaPine: Do you believe, in the future, that eventually you may be able to negotiate something with the restaurant so that property would be sold to them? Mr. Humpert: They do have a very good business and they park all down the street. Mr. LaPine: You are not anticipating to move unless you sold the property? Mr. Humpert: I am not intending to move but if the price was right. N`' Mr. LaPine: As long as he stays there I don't see any big hang-up with changing the zoning. The only problem we have if you sold it to someone else with this zoning, they could use it for something we don't want. We don't want another business to be stuck back there because you have the C-2 zoning. Mr. Humpert: So somebody could buy that property and start another business? Mr. LaPine: That is right. That is what we are worried about because then you are intruding awfully close to the residential neighborhood. Mr. Humpert: If he wants to expand, there is only one place he can go. Mr. LaPine: He could expand his building as long as he could buy your property for parking but he can't expand now because if he adds on 50 feet, he is taking up 50 feet of his parking. The only logical person to buy your property is him. Mr. Humpert: Plus he would be adding seats. Mr. Morrow: I think Bill touched on most of my points. Other than the City Council asking us to look at it, I would be comforted if you could sell off that 30 feet and make it parking and retain the 12099 residential or rezone it to the residential across the street. I wouldn't like to see anything forced further south from the Bone Yard. I would feel comfortable rezoning to the R-3 based on the way it is developing in that area. I have no problem with the north 30 feet being C-2. hr.. Mr. McCann: Mr. Nagy, I think what I am hearing they want to go residential with the dwelling itself and the north 30 feet for parking. Is that correct? Since we are downsizing our zoning, would we have to readvertise? Mr. Nagy: We have to readvertise. Mr. McCann: Can we just delete the northerly 30 feet? Mr. Nagy: You can just delete the northerly 30 feet and leave it in the C-2 classification. Mr. McCann: We couldn't put it into the parking though? Mr. Nagy: Not without readvertising. The parking classification is limited only to parking. Mr. McCann: You can leave the northerly 30 feet C-2 and take the home dwelling as residential. Mrs. Fandrei: Mr. Nagy, as it is now, 100' x 113' , that is large enough for a commercial building, isn't it? Mr. Nagy: Yes it is. Nft. Mrs. Fandrei: That is what I thought so if we rezone this to R-3 and the Bone Yard wants to purchase it, they could come back for a rezoning to parking? Mr. Nagy: Certainly it is a possibility. There is no guarantee that they would get it but it is certainly an option. If you leave it zoned in the C-2, the Bone Yard, their problem would simply be one of obtaining a waiver use to expand their restaurant and use it for parking. In the event it were to be rezoned to a residential classification and they decided to enter into negotiations with the property owner to acquire it, they would then more likely have an option to purchase subject to getting the zoning change. There is no guarantee they would get the zoning change. Then they would still have to come through with a waiver use. So the property owners chances of selling the property is a little more difficult because there is no guarantee that they would be successful in the zoning change. Mrs. Fandrei: As it is right now it could be developed into a commercial piece of property Mr. Nagy: Either with site plan approval or site plan approval waiver use. 12100 Mrs. Fandrei: We know once we have the zoning, it is almost impossible to deny the site plan. Mr. LaPine: John, to the west, the red building, is that zoned commercial all the way back to the heavy black line? Mr. Nagy: Yes it is. Mr. LaPine: So if this stays, all those three lots would be in a commercial classification? Mr. Nagy: Yes. Mr. Morrow: I would like to offer a motion to amend the petition to delete the 30 feet. Mr. Nagy: As the gentleman pointed out the size of these parcels, the piece to the north is 30 feet and the piece to the south is 70 feet. The minimum lot width in an R-3 is 80 feet, so we should be looking at an R-2 rather than an R-3. We should try to bring the lot more in conformance. No matter what we do we have a problem with the lot depth because it is only 113' rather than 120' so we can't overcome all of the problems. It just seems to me an R-2 would be closer. We could go all the way down to an R-1 given the lot area. Mr. Engebretson: Where does that leave us tonight? Mr. Nagy: I think technically we should readvertise. We are not making the lot bigger. We are being more restrictive. I think we should readvertise and let the neighborhood know what is being proposed. Mr. McCann: If we left it at 80 feet and left 20 feet for parking, would that `, solve any of our problems? Mr. Nagy: We would have a zoning line that is not coterminous with the property line. Mr. McCann: I would like to make an alternative resolution to table this for a period of one month in order to allow the Planning Department to amend the petition to an R-1 classification with the north 30 feet being parking. Mr. Morrow: I will withdraw my motion in favor of a tabling motion. There was no one else present wishing to be heard on this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 92-4-1-9 closed. On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann, seconded by Mr. Tent and unanimously approved, it was ##6-385-92 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 16, 1992 on Petition 92-4-1-9 by the City Planning Commission, pursuant to Council Resolution ##214-92, proposing to rezone property located on the east side of Hubbell Avenue, south of Plymouth Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 35 from C-2 to R-3, the City Planning Commission does hereby determine to table Petition 92-4-1-9 until the study meeting of July 14, 1992. 12101 FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 23.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Nr. Mr. LaPine: I voted for the tabling motion but quite frankly I don't see any reason to even rezone this because what you have there now is one whole area that is now commercial and what we are going to do is take 30 feet and make it P and leave the rest residential. To me we are better off leaving that whole square commercial. To me I don't think that is the right thing to do. Mr. Morrow: Contrary to Mr. LaPine, I feel my concern is to the neighbors and residents on Hubbell Road, which would be less if we rezoned it as outlined versus leaving it all commercial. Mr. Tent: On this particular item, if we do table it and we study it for 30 days and bring it back, if we do nothing, we can still revisit this and continue on with what we have now without re-advertising? Mr. Nagy: Yes you can. Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 92-5-1-10 by Richard D. Cramb, Sr. for American Legion Post #32 requesting to rezone property located on the east side of Newburgh Road between Joy Road and Ann Arbor Trail in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 32 from RUF to P. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Nagy: We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating their office has no objections to this rezoning proposal. Mr. Morrow excused himself from this item as he is a member of the American Legion Post #32. Mr. Engebretson: The petitioner is at the podium and ready to go. Clinton Hargraves, 11310 Melrose: I am the Manager of the American Legion. As everybody knows with the banquet hall facilities we need more hard surfaced parking. That will keep them off Newburgh Road. That is the reason for the rezoning. We purchased the property from the City a few years ago and cleaned it up and we are ready to put hard surface parking in there. You will have a site plan in the next few days. There will be plenty of landscaping. We do need the parking bad. Mrs. Fandrei: Mr. Hargraves, you mentioned your site plan coming in shortly. One of the things we were looking for is a berm across Newburgh Road to shield the parking. You have a nice building but there is so much parking and all we see is asphalt. 12102 Mr. Hargraves: Whenever they widened Newburgh Road they put two manholes in and we wanted to raise that berm a little higher. I don't know how much higher we can go with it now because we do have those manholes out there. That was part of the reason that berm wasn't any higher. We will put probably about a three foot berm in if that is sufficient. 'Now Mrs. Fandrei: How many manholes are there? Mr. Hargraves: Two. Mrs. Fandrei: They could probably be recessed in between. Mr. Tent: If we approve this petition we haven't seen the site plan. Will this come back to us? Mr. Engebretson: Yes it will. It will come back through the site plan process. I think Brenda was just encouraging him to look into those issues. There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 92-5-1-10 closed. On a motion duly made by Mrs. Fandrei and seconded by Mr. LaPine, it was #6-386-92 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 16, 1992 on Petition 92-5-1-10 by Richard D. Cramb, Sr. for American Legion Post #32 requesting to rezone property located on the east side of Newburgh Road between Joy Road and Ann Arbor Trail in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 32 from RUF to P, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 92-5-1-10 be approved for the following reasons: ``. 1) That the proposed change of zoning will permit the provision of extra off-street parking for the adjacent American Legion Post. 2) That the proposed change of zoning is compatible to and in harmony with the surrounding uses in the area. 3) That the proposed change of zoning represents only a minor extension of non-residential zoning in the area. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 23.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Tent, McCann, LaPine, Alanskas, Fandrei, Engebretson NAYS: None ABSTAIN: Morrow ABSENT: Gniewek Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. `o. 12103 Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 92-5-2-17 by Bakers Square requesting waiver use approval to construct a full service restaurant to be located on the north side of Seven Mile Road between Middlebelt and Purlingbrook Roads in the Southeast 1/4 of Section 2. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Nagy: We have received a letter from the Traffic Bureau stating: (1) Due to a math error on the part of the draft person, only 99 parking places and 5 handicapped spaces are shown on the plan, not 105 and 5 as stated on page one of the site plan. (2) The site plan does not indicate parking lot security lighting. We have also received a letter from the Engineering Department stating their department has no objections to the waiver use proposal. Also in our file is a letter from the Ordinance Enforcement Division stating the following deficiencies or problems were found: 1. The proposed sign package consisting of three wall signs and one ground sign will require Zoning Board approval. 2. There is a temporary waiver of the required protective wall along the west property line. Should this proposal be approved, conditions will have changed sufficiently to require the erection of the wall or an immediate rehearing to approve the existing fence. Mr. Engebretson: We will go to the petitioner. Enos Curtis, 4801 Southwick Dr. , Matteson, Illinois: I am the Construction Manager for Bakers Square. The proposed facility is a 180 seat family restaurant. Our specialty is family fare, pies, etc. We have completely geared our facility to neighborhood and family business. It is the old Poppin Fresh chain. The proposed facility will be a r.w brick veneer building with stucco type material on top and a terra cotta metal roof. I have to excuse our mistake on the parking calculations. I thought we met all the requirements and obviously we don't. We have the sufficient amount of landscaping. The area right now is just parking. It is a corner of the big lot. Again, I apologize. I thought on the site plans we did show yard lights because we do have yard lighting around the peripheral of the building. I believe we would be an asset to the community and to that corner. Mr. Morrow: The first question I would like cleared up is the ownership of the property. Is that currently a part of Livonia Mall? Mr. Curtis: Yes. Mr. Morrow: Would this be some kind of a lease arrangement? Mr. Curtis: It would be a lease conditioned upon the granting of the waiver. Mr. Morrow: You would not be the property owner? It would be retained by the mall? Mr. Curtis: Right. 12104 Mr. Tent: When you chose this location was there a specific reason? Mr. Curtis: The neighborhood. Our business revolves around the stable family areas, repeat business, people coming back for our pies. We want people to know who we are. We are not highway business necessarily. Mr. Tent: My concern is this is a satellite operation. It is a building all by itself within a mall. Have you considered the other part of the mall area where Sears used to have the gasoline station or the tire store just opposite that. It would be the same location and the same area. It would be more compatible to being a satellite operation than within the mall. Mr. Curtis: I believe the location we are at is the best use of the property for two reasons. First of all, not too many people are parking there. There is an overabundance of parking. I guess it is used pretty much on the holidays. The visibility along Seven Mile for our business couldn't be better. It is a good location for us. Mr. Tent: My concept would be this is all by itself. A mall concept means everything is contained within the mall. That was the purpose for the shopping mall. That was how it was presented to us when they established that location. For us to take a restaurant and put it in the corner of the parking lot, it is just taking away from our original concept. So where is the best place for that to locate and still be in the area? I looked at the far side and I thought that would be an ideal location to be and it would be a satellite and still be in the primary area. That is why I asked if you had a second choice. Mr. Curtis: I really was not part of the original negotiations of that 141. particular site. We would have picked the site for purely selfish reasons. It is a two-way street. We attract people to the mall and people going to the mall see us. Mr. Tent: There is a facility within the mall itself that is closing down but that wouldn't be conducive to what you are looking for because you wouldn't have the exposure? Mr. Curtis: Correct. Mrs. Fandrei: One of our concerns is the drive and the entrance into your parking lot. During the busy times such as the holidays we are looking at a possible backup from people trying to get into your lot out onto Seven Mile in that drive area. Mr. Curtis: We would really like our own curb cut onto Seven Mile but I am sure that can't be arranged. We toyed with the access up and down the lane there. The actual building location and driveway location is a product of several site conditions. There is a storm sewer running through the property east to west. We didn't want to dig up the parking lot too much. When we laid out the driveway, it seemed to be midway of the stream. Several cars can be waiting and 12105 the cars waiting to get out onto Seven Mile Road are still far enough away from our driveway to allow access without causing a traffic block. Mrs. Fandrei: I can see that but one of our main concerns is the possible backup. As people are going south to exit onto Seven Mile Road the people .. waiting to get into your lot may back up and may cause a traffic problem. The other thing is your front faces west? Mr. Curtis: Our entrance way is facing west. Mrs. Fandrei: It seems strange that you are facing the trees. Along with the whole concept your proposed dumpster is in the middle of the lot. If your entrance were a little further north, the dumpster could be placed nearer the building. Mr. Curtis: We really fought with that dumpster. We had it back in the corner and for our people to traipse all the garbage across the parking lot is bad news. Mrs. Fandrei: What about the driveway going a little further north and put that dumpster where the driveway is now and that would solve two problems. Mr. Curtis: We are 145 feet back now so we have a seven car stacking lane which would have access. Moving the lane back a little wouldn't bother us. It is just the maximum parking is right here. If we pushed the lane back I would be losing some of our parking. Mrs. Fandrei: If you would lose two spaces, you would be losing nothing because the proposed dumpster is taking two spaces. Mr. Curtis: I think we could work with moving the driveway a little bit. We had so many little criteria and we tried to put them all together and this is what we ended up with. Mrs. Fandrei: I have a problem with the dumpster being in the middle of the parking lot especially where your entrance to the whole area is. Everyone is going to be driving by that dumpster. Mr. LaPine: Mrs. Fandrei brought up most of the points I wanted to expound on. Number one, we want Bakers Squre in Livonia. It is a good restaurant but I question if this is the right location basically because the main driveway into the mall, the worry I have the cars will come in there and then they have to make the turn into your restaurant. I agree the ideal situation would be if you could have your own driveway, That way we could eliminate that driveway and we wouldn't have to worry about the cars backing up. Is this the only site on the Livonia mall property that Bakers Square looked at? Mr. Curtis: I believe this is the only site in Livonia we looked at. We currently have a major expansion in the Detroit market. 12106 Mr. LaPine: You also have the exit to the north. I was out there twice this weekend and the cars come from the north and there is a curve there and they are all heading out to the driveway to get out to Seven Mile Road. The other problem I see at this location is the way the drives are during the peak selling season, such as Christmas and Easter. You are going to find people are going to cut through your parking lot to take a shortcut. I just don't think this is the Nor ideal location and I am wondering if there is any possibility that you could get back with the mall and see if there are any other locations, as Mr. Tent pointed, over on the Middlebelt side. Where the gas station used to be might be a better location. Mr. Curtis: This is a secondary access road. This is not the main entrance. Obviously during busy peaks we will have traffic but that is a 2 1/2 lane exit. Again, this location for us is the ideal location. The demographics, the traffic counts, the people, the entrance and the visibility. I probably think anything else would be a secondary location and whether they would want it, I don't know. Whether the mall would even want to lease it to us I don't know. Mr. Alanskas: What would your hours be? Mr. Curtis: Normal hours would be 7:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night. Our Michigan and Detroit stores don't seem to be doing so well for breakfast so they are opening a little later around 10:00 or 10:30. Mr. Alanskas: How many other locations do you have in the Detroit area? Mr. Curtis: Five. Mr. Alanskas: How many cars would you say would be going into your restaurant during these hours? Mr. Curtis: Normally we have 150 to 170 seats. We normally only want 60 to 70 car parking. I am up to 105 here, which is way over requirements. Mr. Alanskas: I think the building is beautiful but my biggest concern is the safety of the people coming in off of Seven Mile Road. You also have people leaving the mall. That could be a dangerous situation. Mr. Curtis: There is a seven car stacking lane onto Middlebelt from our driveway. Mr. Alanskas: How about people coming out of the mall? Mr. Curtis: Between me and the back road there has to be 150 feet back there. Mr. Alanskas: That is my only concern in regards to the cars and the traffic flow. Mr. Curtis: Again, with the seven car stacking, if the seven cars can't get onto Seven Mile, our traffic will back up into our lot. If normally fifteen cars came out of the mall at once and they were held up for any reason, it would be the same as if we were generating the cars. 12107 Patrick Loftus, 18634 Doris: I agree with council because I live just south of there. There is a major traffic problem there. At the the western most entrance/exit to Livonia Mall there is a "No Left Hand Turn" sign posted just as you are coming out of the mall. That means people don't make left hand turns supposedly. Obviously not too many people read the signs and it is private property so you can't '4111. backs it. When one person wants to make a left hand turn, it backs up traffic almost all the way back to the drugstore. Seven Mile and Middlebelt that is a major interchange. You are going to get between 1600 and 2000 cars per hour during rush hour traffic and that is a major amount especially during Christmas time. We can't get out of our subdivision sometimes during Christmas time. Adding a restaurant there is not going to help the situation. The Commission talked about alternative locations. There is also a Sutherlands Restaurant that was east of Middlebelt facing Seven Mile that is closed. Maybe Bakers Square could look into that. There is also LaBordeau on Six Mile. That is closed and they could utilize that. There are at least 18 restaurants within 200 yards of Seven Mile and Middlebelt. Do we actually need another one? The people in that subdivision, especially south of Seven Mile, if they wanted to visit Bakers Square, they would have a hard time getting to it because they can hardly cross Seven Mile Road. I don't know where they are going to gain extra room for the traffic to go inbound or outbound to Livonia Mall until they widen Seven Mile, which they are starting to do. Seven Mile is actually a major thoroughfare to get to the new western subdivisions and if you add more traffic we are going to have a major problem at Middlebelt and Seven Mile. That area is notorious for accidents now. I personally, and I know a lot of residents in my neighborhood, don't want Seven Mile to look like Plymouth Road. I know the City Council and the Zoning Board has problems with more and more restaurants wanting to go on Plymouth Road and it is `�. starting to get a little shabby. I know they are going to be resurfacing Plymouth Road pretty soon and they are starting to fix it up, which is great, but why settle for something else when we don't have to have the problem to begin with. Bakers Square is a quality restaurant and I would visit it again but I don't think I would visit it in this area. Mr. Curtis: The gentleman mentioned other restaurants that are closed that we could take over. If they are closed, possibly they were in the wrong location. Secondly traffic, traffic is what brings people to buy things. We want the traffic. We wouldn't go on a side street where there wasn't any traffic and we wouldn't have picked this site. No business will go where there isn't sufficient traffic to support it. We have a considerable investment in these buildings and we don't want to go somewhere where our future is in jeopardy. We picked this location and we think it is good for us. Mr. Morrow: Mr. Curtis comes here, and certainly a major regional mall such as the Livonia Mall has a certain amount of history connected with it, and you may or may not be aware of it. You have a successful business. You have a quality product and you do generate a lot of traffic, which is always a valid concern under any waiver use. Certain times of the year I have used your other locations to buy 12108 your product and I almost assume the adversarial role of vying for a parking spot. Notwithstanding that, I have tried to support the Livonia Mall throughout the years, outside of maybe not going along with the arcade that they had proposed inside the mall. I pretty much supported it with one reservation and that was years ago they tried to locate a satellite restaurant such as yours on the mall site but further to the east. As a Planning Commissioner I am not in favor of satellite uses outside of the mall use, particularly restaurants. Other malls, we have fought long and hard trying not to place them within major malls. Where I am coming from is primarily the satellite use that you are asking the waiver for, we would like to see malls function within themselves. We recognize that we have a commitment to these malls because they are regional malls and they do hold up a certain portion of the community. We certainly want to see them remain viable. In spite of all of that, because the satellite use that you are proposing is something that I have difficulty with, I will probably not support it. Mrs. Fandrei: Mr. Curtis, you do have a nice shop. We are commissioned to consider the health, safety and welfare of our public. We have all expressed our concern is the safety of the people that are in the traffic lanes, etc. going to that mall area. I go by that area every day and it does have, as our young man suggested, very heavy traffic at certain times of the year. We definitely want to see your shop in Livonia. I believe it would be an asset. Again, I would urge you to look for another site. Mr. Curtis: Would it help the board, that wide driveway obviously if there is a "Right Turn Only" sign with no left turn, it can be enforceable. Mrs. Fandrei: It is private property. Saw Mr. Curtis: I just thought if I could make a self governing right turn concrete amoeba in the middle of the island that sure would speed traffic. I don't know if the mall would allow me to do that but I could sure give that a shot. I am looking for approval and whatever it takes. There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 92-5-2-17 closed. On a motion duly made by Mr. Tent and seconded by Mr. Morrow, it was #6-387-92 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 16, 1992 on Petition 92-5-2-17 by Bakers Square requesting waiver use approval to construct a full service restaurant to be located on the north side of Seven Mile Road between Middlebelt and Purlingbrook Roads in the Southeast 1/4 of Section 2, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 92-5-2-17 be denied for the following reasons: 1) That the petitioner has failed to affirmatively show that the proposed use is in compliance with the general waiver use standards and requirements as set forth in Section 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance 1543. 12109 2) Since there currently are 21 eating establishments within one mile radius of the proposed location, the proposed use is contrary to the spirit and intent of the Zoning Ordinance which, among other things, is to promote and encourage a balanced and appropriate mix of uses and not over saturate an area with similar type uses as is being proposed. `"gra. 3) That the proposed use would be detrimental to and incompatible with the adjoining uses of the area. 4) That the location and size of the proposed use, its nature and intensity, the site layout and its relation to adjacent access drives will be such that traffic to and from the site will be hazardous to the area since it will unduly conflict with the normal traffic moving to and from the Livonia Mall Center. 5) That location of the proposed use is contrary to the planning principles related to the development of shopping centers which seek to consolidate a variety of uses into one building group so as to provide safe, efficient and easy access to and from the center so as to minimize conflicts. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. Mr. LaPine: I don't want to close the door completely on Bakers Square. Normally Jeanne Hildebrandt from the center would have been here. Maybe she has some insight on this that we don't know about. This gentleman is from out of town and he doesn't know all of that. Things are happening at the mall and I am surprised she isn't here this evening. I am not going to make a motion to table but maybe Sur the prudent thing to do would be to table this and have Mrs. Hildebrandt come in and maybe she can put some light on this as to why this location and what other locations are available within the mall. Mr. Tent: I am the maker of the motion and I see nothing to benefit by tabling this. We have given the petitioner our advice. We have suggested to him to look for another location. If we went ahead and allowed this to happen, it is contrary to everything stated in the resolution. It is not right for that location so why should we have him come back time and time again? I would like to call for a vote. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Tent, McCann, Morrow, Fandrei NAYS: LaPine, Alanskas, Engebretson ABSENT: Gniewek Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. 12110 Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 92-5-2-18 by Center Stage Productions, Ltd. requesting waiver use approval to utilize a Class C liquor license for a proposed performing arts theatre located on the northeast corner of Plymouth and Farmington Roads in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 27. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the ,,` existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Shane: We have received a letter from the Fire Marshal's office stating they have no objections to this proposal. We have also received a letter from Ordinance Enforcement Division stating no deficiencies or problems were found therefore their department has no objections to this proposal. Also in our file is a letter from the Engineering Department stating they have no objections to the waiver use proposal. Mr. Engebretson: Will the petitioner please come forward and tell us your reason for making this request. Stuart Gorelick, 33330 Plymouth Road: I am the purchaser of the property that was formerly known as the Mai Kai Theatre. I see our little booklet is being passed out. I am sorry you didn't have an opportunity to review this before the meeting. I will try to bring you up to date and give you the essence of the material that is contained therein. The Mai-Kai Theatre, which was originally built by the George family as a premiere first run theatre originally was designed to present Broadway shows. It was built with a flyloft. It was built with an orchestra pit. Although the George family never presented Broadway shows, the theatre is available to do that with a minimum amount of modification. The history of the theatre, I think you, of course, know much better than I do. It was closed by Mr. George. It was leased for a short period of time by someone who `tkm. came in to put in Las Vegas type reviews. Center Stage Productions, which I am the President and sole shareholder of, was formed to try to find a venue in the metropolitan Detroit area to present Broadway type theatre. We were formed in 1989 for that purpose and we identified the Mai Kai theatre as probably the premiere center in not only Wayne County but Oakland County within the southeastern part of Michigan. The theatre is going to be totally renovated to present Broadway theatre to the general public. We have Mr. George Burns who has lent his name to the theatre. The theatre will be called the George Burns Theatre or the George Burns Center for the Performing Arts. Mr. Burns is scheduled to come to Livonia on September 10 to dedicate the theatre and to also perform there on the 11th, 12th and the 13th of September. The Broadway theatre coming to this part of Livonia is going to be a tremendous benefit to the City, to the image of the City, to the cultural image of the City. The renovation of the building itself, rather than being used as a shopping center location or being torn down, is going to greatly enhance the value of the City. We will certainly plan to work with the City. We would like to become the home of the Livonia Symphony Orchestra and any other social functions that we could help with the City. 12111 Our type of shows are Broadway shows and these are primarily shows that have played on Broadway or, in this particular case, we have a complete list of shows playing through next March, will be shows that are going to Broadway. The industry itself is extremely excited about the prospect of having a theatre here because basically there are only two theatres that qualify as Broadway theatres, one being the Fisher Theatre in downtown Detroit and the Sew other being the Birmingham Theatre which is located, of course, in Birmingham, Michigan and has been a great asset to that community. The Fox Theatre, which is a wonderful historic landmark, although they do have some Broadway shows, primarily plays one-nighters. It is not really, because of its size, considered a great theatre to watch Broadway shows in. It is a lovely theatre. It has 5000 seats where obviously the George Burns Theatre is much smaller with 1400 seats. Our request for the liquor license is so that we can serve beverages to our patrons one hour prior to the show, during the intermission and possibly an hour after the show. The service of beverages would be limited only to the guests of the theatre. This will not be a bar that will be open to the general public. Most of the people that will come here will be adults, they will be over 21 and they expect to have liquor service when they go to the theatre. It is not only done in the Fisher Theatre and the Birmingham Theatre but it is done in almost any theatre anywere in the United States. We believe the George Burns Theatre will be long lasting. It will certainly be an asset to the community and will bring a great deal of tourism to this part of Livonia, which will, of course, help all the industries, the restaurant industry and the shopping centers, etc. and we project it will provide employment of between 50 to 75 full and part time employees. We are not the lessee of the property. This is not a lightly taken commitment. We have bought the property. We have a very large commitment. Mr. Burns, obviously before he lent is name to this theatre, certainly investigated and checked out the type of people we are, who he was dealing with and he is very, very proud to come to Livonia and dedicate the theatre. It is the only theatre in the United States that will have Mr. Burns' name. Of course, I think all of us are familiar with Mr. Burns. Probably the teenagers are familiar with him from playing God in "Oh God" with John Denver and many of the adults, myself included, are familiar with him from the George Burns and Gracie Allen days of radio, television and motion pictures. I am very proud to be a part of this and I will be glad to answer any questions you may have. Mr. Tent: Mr. Gorelick, how old is George Burns? Mr. Gorelick: 96. Mr. Tent: You have indicated that the theatre is going to be renovated. Is it renovated now? Mr. Gorelick: We have hired the firm of Peterhansrea. I don't know whether the board is familiar with that firm. They are an international design firm even though they are based here in Detroit. We plan to maintain the integrity of the theatre rather than changing the theatre. Our major thrust would be to change the perception of the theatre to make it a wonderful place for an evening of 12112 entertainment. The major cost of renovation is going to be backstage where we have to put in an arbor system which lifts the scenery off the stage so we can present the size and types of shows that are necessary to become a profitable operating theatre. Fortunately, the theatre has the second largest stage in depth in this area. The only theatre that I am aware of that has a larger fir. depth is the Masonic Temple. If I am not mistaken, I would be willing to bet that their depth is just a few feet deeper than ours and we could mount a show like Phantom of the Opera because of the size of the stage. Mr. Tent: Then you are not planning anything with the exterior? Everything will be interior? Mr. Gorelick: Oh no. We plan to make many external changes, keeping with the architecture of the building itself. As an example re-lamping the globes that are there, changing the painting color, re-carpeting the lobby, etc. We plan to make the theatre look special and be special. Mr. Tent: How about the signage? Mr. Gorelick: The Mai Kai sign would be redone to reflect the new name. The attraction board would probably remain the same. We would like to do some additional lighting around the bottom area. Mr. Tent: John, would we have a chance to see this renovation before we take action? Mr. Nagy: If the building is expanded or altered you would. The use is permitted on the property. `. Mr. Tent: When will we get a look at the site plan? Mr. Nagy: You will not get a site plan unless there are exterior alterations. In connection with any outside work you would have site plan approval. Mr. Gorelick: Mr. Tent I would also, even though it may not be required under your ordinance, share these plans with you prior to any work being done. Mr. Alanskas: On page four of your brochure you have the complete roster of entertainment from September 11 all the way through March 21. Are these acts already booked? Mr. Gorelick: Yes sir. Mr. Alanskas: Is that kind of the carriage before the horse? Mr. Gorelick: No, not at all. The theatre is going to be changed to the George Burns Theatre. It is necessary that we plan attractions that far ahead. We are negotiating for attractions all the way through next May or June. Mr. Alanskas: Could you still have it if you did not get the liquor license? 12113 Mr. Gorelick: Yes. We could still have it. Would we be able to operate profitably? Would the patrons be treated as well as adults? The answer to that would be no. I think it is extremely necessary not only because of the costs involved not only in the renovation of the property but also the kinds of the shows we are bringing in with that quality to have as much ancillary income as is possible. Mr. Alanskas: In regards to holding City functions such as the Livonia Symphony Orchestra, would there be a charge to them? Mr. Gorelick: If there would, it would be a very nominal charge probably just enough to cover just the cost of the janitor service and possibly the heat and electricity, if there was a charge at all. We want to be a good neighbor. We want to be a citizen of the community. We want the City of Livonia to take as much pride in us as we take in our building. Mr. Alanskas: It says the parking lot will be sealed. Does that mean all the cracks? Mr. Gorelick: It will be sealed and resurfaced. It is called a seal coat. Mr. Alanskas: The entire lot? Mr. Gorelick: Yes. Mr. McCann: Mr. Gorelick, I like your choice in names. I have done a similar thing in the past. I owned a Pub called Fiber McGee and Molly. I have certain questions. I have some familiarity with what you are trying to do. I owned a security company at one time and I provided security for the Premier Center. I assume this would be Noir similar in several respects. Are you just going to do major productions and not entertainers? Mr. Gorelick: With the exception of Mr. George Burns, we don't really presume to become a Premier Center. We don't presume to do Los Vegas style shows there. I don't think that can be profitable. We may do the occasional one-nighter. That is not our plan at all. I think if we based our premise on doing that, much as the Omni Star based their premise on that, that we would be doomed to failure before we even started this project. Mr. McCann: Are you going to do seating as it was done at the Premier Center? Mr. Gorelick: This is all theatre seating. We are not removing any of the seats. Mr. McCann: So what you are talking about is like the Fisher Theatre where they go up and have a drink and the drinks stay there and people go back to their seats? Mr. Gorelick: Absolutely. People will not be allowed to take beverages into the theatre itself. 12114 Mr. McCann: You are not planning on serving food there? Mr. Gorelick: They are going to serve some snacks. We are trying to have something. Not everybody wants to drink. It won't be a food service. We don't want to be in the restaurant business. Mr. McCann: Some of the concerns I had and when the Omni Star came about I expressed these concerns, and that is the problem we had with the Premier Center is they had teen nights and dances and that sort of thing. Are you planning any type of activities like that? If you weren't using the theatre, would you open it up for dancing? Mr. Gorelick: First of all there is no facility for dancing in the theatre. We are not removing any seats in the auditorium. We are not turning this into a rock and roll venue whatsoever. That is the furthest thing in the world for our plans. Mr. McCann: Mr. Nagy, can we condition this waiver use as to dancing and to alcohol in the main area? Mr. Nagy: Certainly. Mr. LaPine: Do I understand that you have purchased the property? It is not contingent upon your getting approval? Mr. Gorelick: You understand correctly. Mr. LaPine: Number one, let me say I welcome you to Livonia. As you well know we had some bad problems there when the previous owner had it, which left a bad taste with a lot of people in Livonia. You are going to have to overcome that to get the people to come back there because they are going to be reluctant to buy tickets because they may think the same thing is going to happen again. Will you sell season tickets? What price range are we talking about? Mr. Gorelick: We would like to sell season tickets obviously. We may be a little late this year to sell season tickets. Our prices are going to be about the same price as the Birmingham Theatre and the Fisher Theatre, the plays being anywhere from $25 to $32 roughly. Musicals, because of the orchestra and larger cast, will probably be another $10 a ticket more. That is pretty much the going rate across the United States, other than New York which is usually much more expensive. May I digress for just one moment? In response to Mr. McCann again, my attorney told me not to get in trouble, all the dancing that would probably not come under what I think you meant, would be in a musical where there would be dancing on the stage. Mr. McCann: I understand that. Mr. LaPine: I noticed you will have some shows that are going to be geared to the younger generation. Mr. Gorelick: We would like to put in a children's series. Mr. LaPine: During those types of engagements you would not sell liquor? `w 12115 Mr. Gorelick: We would not sell liquor at all during any kind of a show where the preponderance of the audience would be under the age of 21. Mr. LaPine: That theatre holds approximately 1500? Mr. Gorelick: 1396. Mr. LaPine: I would assume you would have two performances a night? Mr. Gorelick: Normally in Broadway type theatre you would have eight shows a week. You have six during the week Tuesday through Sunday in the evening and you have a matinee on either Wednesday or Saturday or Sunday. Mr. LaPine: So basically the theatre would be operating pretty much seven days a week? Mr. Gorelick: No, six days a week. Mr. LaPine: When I first heard about it naturally I was like everybody else but I understand your background, I have talked to the Mayor about this, and I am hoping it is going to be a success. I think we in Livonia can support. If you can get the money to back you. We are hoping you are not going to go in there and a year from now you will be out of business. Mr. Gorelick: We are making a tremendous investment with the improvements and renovations. When I say that, the building is in wonderful condition, don't misunderstand me. We bought the building. We are not a tenant. We are not a lessee in there where if it doesn't work out, he takes his money and walks away. There is a very, very, major difference in a situation like that, in my opinion, than if this was just a tenant going in and renting the building. Mr. LaPine: You only bought the parcel that the theatre and parking lot are on? Mr. Gorelick: We bought a little under 9 acres. The theatre and the parking lot and some additional land to expand the parking if it was required and possibly if we needed to add a little projection to the theatre for, as an example, some additional dressing rooms. Mr. LaPine: You didn't buy enough land so, if in the future if things go well, you could construct a restaurant at that location? Mr. Gorelick: I don't believe there is enough land for that purpose. I will say again, I don't want to be in the restaurant business. Mr. Tent: For public record, you are not going to have any rock concerts there? Mr. Gorelick: I would say we will not categorically have any rock and roll there. We will have, from time to time, some contemporary music. It is not our intent to ever turn it into a rock and roll environment. 12116 Mr. Tent: The reason I ask that question, I wanted to go on the record with that because in the event someone comes over there, Hammer or whatever those guys are called, and want to lease your place for the night, now we are going to have to run into the concern well we are going to have to have security out there in the parking lot because those guys get a little out of hand. When you were talking `'` about it being a neighborhood theatre, I was coming along with you because I was thinking this is great. This is the like the Fisher Theatre and the Birmingham Theatre but now if things get bad and you start bringing in rockers in there, that becomes a different problem. Mr. Gorelick: One of the things that really precludes it is the business itself Mr. Tent. Rockers like Hammer and people like that, the seating capacity here is not as large as the competitors and the acts truly would not want to come out here. Mr. Tent: What is your position? Mr. Gorelick: My position is clear. No rock and roll. I may have contemporary music but I absolutely intend not to have rock and roll. Mr. Tent: That is what I wanted for the public record that you are not going to turn that place in, if things get back, to a rock and roll type of place. Mr. Gorelick: I will go on record and say that sir. Mr. Morrow: One comment. It is obvious that the petitioner has made a sizable investment already and I certainly, as one commissioner, have nothing against adults consuming adult beverages within the constraints that he has outlined and we think it could be an addition to Livonia that would be in the right direction. He mentions the Livonia Symphony as well as the events he plans to bring to Livonia. As one commissioner, I don't have any problem supporting his request for a Class C license even though, I am sure he is aware, that it is in conflict with our ordinance of being within 1,000 feet of another Class C liquor license across the street, which will require a waiver by the City Council. Was you counsel aware of that? Mr. Gorelick: I don't know if he was aware of that or not. Mr. Morrow: The ordinance we are governed by precludes Class C liquor licenses within 1,000 feet of another liquor license. We have a conflict and we cannot waive that stipulation but we can condition the Council to take a look at it and they can waive that. Mr. Engebretson: There is no necessity to make any application. The Council can waive that separation rule concurrent with the granting of the waiver if they chose to do that. Mr. Alanskas: Just for clarification, our packet says there are 1300 seats and you say 1396. 12117 Mr. Gorelick: The original plan called for 1300 seats and we physically counted the seats and there are 1396. Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Gorelick: You have made an impressive presentation and I regret I did not have the opportunity to have some more time with the booklet you prepared. It appears to be very thorough. One of `Noir the things that attracts my attention is your background. I would like to suggest you take this opportunity to enlighten us a little bit on your qualifications to operate a facility like this. I bring this up based on Mr. LaPine's comments that there is a history at this location that has not been all pleasant to all citizens in the community and I think you could certainly overcome that with the kind of presentation you make but I think you have a personal history that gives a lot of credibility to the likelihood that you will be a successful operator here as contrasted with the person that failed with a similar kind of undertaking. Mr. Gorelick: I appreciate your vote of confidence in that area. Let me try to separate it for you. What they tried to do, to the best of my knowledge and I knew none of the principals or was I ever a guest of the Omni Star, they tried to present Los Vegas shows. They tried to present entertainment that really doesn't exist any more. People that you and I would go see are not in abundance and if they are available, they won't work in that small of a situation with 1400 seats. They work in a much larger environment much like the Fox brings in Frank Sinatra. We could never bring in Frank Sinatra. We could never afford to pay him. The Fox brings in Andy Williams or many of the major, what we call middle-of-the-road stars. We couldn't afford to pay them so we look for a niche and our niche is one that we can afford to pay and we can afford to sell tickets for and that is the Broadway aspect of it. As far as Sow my background, I will try to make this very precise. I was born into a theatre family. My grandfather was a builder. My father was an attorney and they operated the Greater Detroit Theatres from the early 1930's through 1960. I have owned and operated, over the years, roughly 20 theatres. In most cases they were leasehold situations. I operated the United Artists, which I think many of us still remember as being an opulent downtown theatre. I operated the Carmen Theatre in Dearborn. I operated the Playboy Theatre, which was an x-rated theatre. I also started the Royal Oak Theatre in Royal Oak. I still have the lease on it. I am the one that pioneered the rock and roll at that time in the suburban area. The rock and roll entertainment could be accommodated in the Royal Oak because of the size of the theatre. The Royal Oak Theatre today, 15 or 16 years later, still continues to be a theatre that plays musical attractions and continues to do very, very well in the suburbs. Mrs. Fandrei: Mr. Gorelick, it sounds like your history is here in the Detroit area. You are going to be owner involved. Mr. Gorelick: Absolutely. I don't have to live in Livonia. At the present time I live in West Bloomfield but I just purchased a new house by the Franklin Cider Mill. 12118 Mrs. Fandrei: So you are not too far. You said something that made me wonder, x-rated. Is that something you might present in this theatre? Mr. Gorelick: Absolutely not. Mrs. Fandrei: On the record. Mr. Gorelick: On any record. Chuck Fox, 36271 Mallory Court: I have been a Livonia resident for 13 years and if Mr. Gorelick were opening this up anywhere except in Livonia, including next door to my building the Royal Oak Theatre that I manage, we also own Brass Ring Productions, which is the number one concert promoter in the United States, and if he were opening this up anywhere except Livonia, I would say fine, including next door to me. Competition, there is no competition for us. We welcome competition. When Mr. Morelli started at the Mai Kai, I told my wife that my brother and I talked about it and we said he would go out of business May 1st. He went out of business April 1st. We were off by a month. The reason we know this, is the math does not work. The numbers do not work just like Mr. Morelli's numbers did not work. Mr. Gorelick was prosecuted by L. Brooks Patterson for running porno houses. He has had 22 lawsuits in Oakland County since 1976. He spends his life in court. As of three o'clock this afternoon Mr. Gorelick did not have one of these acts booked. He had proposals submitted. Not one act was booked. We spoke to George Burn's agent. He said he will go anywhere if he gets paid. That "401. will be fine. It is alright to talk about George Burns and what a fine person he is. This isn't George Burns coming into our City. This is Stuart Gorelick coming into our City. George Burns was the first losing show the Fox Theatre ever had. So this thing about we're bringing in George Burns, who cares? If you take the math and you take the ticket price and the seating capacity at the Mai Kai, you cannot bring these types of acts into the theatre. You need to add about 700 extra seats. What I am asking the City to do, I have so much information here that I don't want to bore you with this but I am just letting you know that I should have spoken up when Mr. Morelli came because I know how it works. I know how the business works and I knew what was coming when Mr. Morelli came into the City but I figured I had never confronted somebody like this in my life. I came here tonight to take notes but when I sat in the back of the auditorium and when I hear you talk about what a great presentation and about his history in the theatre business. His history is in poronography. Mr. Gorelick, we do not need a man like him in our City of Livonia. I am very concerned. I appeal to you to appoint a committee to look into this. Do not grant Mr. Gorlick a liquor license until you see he has a lease on the building. He says he has a lease on the building. That means nothing. I promise you he doesn't have one 12119 single act booked as of today. What you have been told, none of this is true. Again, I wouldn't have brought this up except I see you were just about to pass this. Mr. Engebretson: What is the basis of your comment that claims none of these acts have been booked? 'ter Mr. Fox: To book an act you send 50% deposit. He sent in a proposal. You can send in a proposal. Each of you can send in a proposal for each of these acts. Have you booked them? You send 50% deposit. Again, this is not competition. If Mr. Gorelick were next door to me in Royal Oak, if he were in any City except a mile from my home, I would say more power to him. Let him take advantage of the people. Do what he needs to do. Get his investors and let him try to make a score. That is his business. I don't get into other people's business. This will not work. You said you hope it will not be the same thing you have been through. This is five times the person you had previously in front of you working the Mai Kai Theatre. Mr. Engebretson: Are you a lessee of this petitioner? You mentioned the Royal Oak Theatre. He mentions in his brochure that Mr. Gorelick is also the President and sole shareholder of the Royal Oak Theatre. Mr. Fox: Yes we lease the building from Mr. Gorelick. We have had several lawsuits between us and it sounds like it would be a personal thing. All I am asking you to do is to appoint a committee to review what Mr. Gorelick is going to do. Don't come to us, the number one concert promoter in the United States, who happens to be local, which nobody seemed to think about doing when Mr. Morelli came in to see if it was going to work. You contact anyone in the *44fty country, a concert promoter, and ask them if this could possibly work. These numbers will not work so obviously something else is going to happen in that building. Mr. Engebretson: When you say you have knowledge that none of these acts have been booked, have you contacted these folks? Mr. Fox: Yes. Every agent that was on the list that we were told Mr. Gorelick was going to book and he did put in proposals for each of them. He has proposals for all of them. Mr. Engebretson: You also mentioned that you had other information that you didn't necessarily want to get bogged down with here tonight. Mr. Fox: That is right. Mr. Engebretson: Is this information available to us? Mr. Fox: It is all public record that I went and researched in Oakland County and I will make this available to you at your convenience. Mr. Engebretson: We appreciate that, assuming there is an appropriate reason to pursue that issue. `. 12120 Mr. Fox: My biggest concern, again, is when I hear someone talk about their rich history in this City, when you have someone that operates porno houses coming into my community, and then when we talk about how they have operated these past businesses and people are sitting there saying "Boy this is great. This sounds super". Sure it sounds super but it is not the truth. Is this a fact or not? Does `n• the character of the people that you give liquor licenses to does this matter. If it does, please review it. If it doesn't matter and you just hand them out then I think I am wasting my time and your time and I certainly don't mean to do that. Mr. Engebretson: We wouldn't be pursuing these issues if we thought it was a waste of time. Mrs. Fandrei: Mr. Fox, thank you for your interest in our community. I have lived here for 32 years and I appreciate your input. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer a tabling resolution until we can do some research on this. Mr. Engebretson: The public hearing has not been closed and so it would be a bit premature Mrs. Fandrei so if you don't mind we will go down the list and then we will go back to the audience to see if there is anyone else that would like to speak to this issue and in fairness I think it is appropriate that we allow the petitioner, not to get into a debate with any of these particular points, but to respond. Mr. Tent: Mr. Fox, I appreciate your coming up here. I was listening but we had questions and reservations but you come before us now being an oeprator and with the information you have I welcome it and I think you are a good citizen for coming to the public hearing and giving us your attention. I am asking that you share this information and let us know what we can look into because I, as one commissioner, would like to look into the details to see what we are getting into. I certainly don't want to get caught in a trap. We have a great City and we want to keep it that way. Mr. Fox: Also, when I was talking about making some information available, if it turns out that the information, if you feel maybe this was too far in the past, if Mr. Gorelick turned over a leaf yesterday and all of a sudden he is being an angel, I would be the first person to say this is fine. Again, I just want you to know that I am only concerned because he is coming into Livonia. Mr. McCann: You base some facts on figures for the seating as compared to the type of shows he is bringing in and the costs. Is this something that you can verify? Mr. Fox: Absolutely. I would be happy to. Again, we have our booker in our company. I say is this going to possibly work. He punches up the numbers and makes a phone call and says it can't possibly work. It is just a matter of math. Mr. McCann: Are you one of the owners of Brass Rings? 12121 Mr. Fox: No I am not. I work for the owner who is my brother Bob Fox. Mr. McCann: I am looking at this and some of the questions I asked earlier were regarding the liquor license, where the alcohol would be served, teen dances, etc. I was looking to restrict in those areas because in my experience with security, those are the problems we are '011m. looking for in the City. We always have a fear and something we look at is the viability of a project going because it does the City no good, it does the reputation of the theatre no good if we bring in somebody that can't possibly work so we do want to look at that but we also want to try and give new businesses an opportunity. I think we can look at the gentleman's background. I don't think that is all important as much to the City as this particular project going on. The types of shows he is looking to put on are family shows. We can restrict the liquor, etc. What are the dangers potentially you see with this man coming to the City? From what I see if he can make it work, whether your figures are right or his figures are right, the potential danger is limited in that it is a family type showing and we are going to have some control over the types of activities that are going to be involved. Mr. Fox: Actually, I think my biggest concern was when it goes in front of the City and Mr. Gorelick gets a liquor license because I know the building will be closed within a year and because it will be the object to get investors to invest in his project and then use the money to operate. It is probably the concern of the investors more so than the City other than the fact that once you give him a liquor license, he will have a liquor license for that building and the City will be in court with Mr. Gorelick because that is his past background. That is how he does business so I am just trying to stop him from coming in and tying up a liquor license, tying up ,tkap• a business and suing the City, which he will do. As soon as you say you will control what he does, you will end up in Court. Mr. McCann: I will look to the Legal Department to see what limitations we can put on them. Mr. Engebretson: Just one point for clarification. This hearing is about granting waiver use to utilize a liquor license. It is not really granting a liquor license, per se. Mr. Alanskas: In your theatre, how many seats do you have? Mr. Fox: Fifteen hundred. Mr. Alanskas: Do you serve liquor? Mr. Fox: No, we are applying for a liquor license and we are doing live shows and a nightclub because we can't operate with only 1700 seats and do live shows. Mr. Alanskas: So with 1700 you are making a living at the theatre? Mr. Fox: No, we are losing money and so now we are going to turn it into a nightclub and live shows. We did all live shows. Now we are 12122 applying for a liquor license in Royal Oak and then we are going to turn it into a nightclub and live shows because you can't make a living with 1700 seats doing live shows. Mr. LaPine: Do I understand you live in Livonia? Mr. Fox: Yes sir, for 13 years. Mr. LaPine: You are not up here because you don't want the competition? Mr. Fox: That is absolutely true. If he was going to turn it into a nightclub then it would be perceived as that because we are turning our place into a nightclub. That would be two nightclubs and that would be competition. To do what he is doing, there is not one act that he had on his list that we would even consider doing. Again, we do operate a major building downtown so this is not a problem for us. Mr. LaPine: I appreciate your stepping forward because quite frankly I was impressed by his presentation but I am going to have to take the time to look some more. Mr. Fox: I appreciate that and as I said sir I came here to take notes. That was my whole function. I was about to get up and when I heard the way this was finishing, he speaks considerably better than I do, but when I started hearing the way this whole thing was going, I just felt like I had to come up to say something. Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Gorelick before we close the public hearing, if you or any of your representatives would like to have the last word. Mr. Gorelick: I have never had the opportunity to meet Mr. Fox. I would like to respond to several of the things that Mr. Fox said. For some reason for a gentleman that came to take notes tonight, he brought a lot of paper work. I brought a little bit of paper work too. Mr. Fox talks about the alleged background of poronograpy. The alleged background in pornography is true. I did operate x-rated theatres. What I showed as an x-rated theatre today you see on your cable channel on television. Times have changed in the 17 years since I have been in that business. In front of me I have, I will hand copies out to the commission, an article from the Royal Oak Tribune, which goes back to 3/29/76. I have highlighted the article. I appeared before the Royal Oak Commission when I bought the Royal Oak Theatre and I would like to say here it says "Vows No 'Objectionable' Fare", "Stuart Gorelick has told Royal Oak officials he ' isn't planning to show anything objectionable' at the Royal Oak Theatre". Also, further down in the article it talks about "He has also been active in several other entertainment firms,", now I am going back 17 years, "including one connected with the Studio North Theater in Ferndale when 'Naked Came the Stranger' was first shown there. A jury in a subsequent trial ruled that the x-rated film was not obscene." Now that is a jury that ruled the film was not obscene. "Gorelick is named as a defendant in a civil suit filed by the Oakland County Presecutor's office to close the Studio North". Not criminal but a civil suit, which was 12123 later dismissed. Mr. Fox is probably very correct. I am 55 years old and I have been in business since I was 18 and I have probably have been involved in 20 lawsuits. One of the lawsuits I am involved in right now happens to pertain to the Royal Oak Theatre. '441m. The Royal Oak Theatre was subleased to Paragon Investment Corporation back in 1977 or 1978. I don't quite recall the date. There was language contained in that sublease to preclude that because I had vowed to the City of Royal Oak, and it is in the newspaper, that no objectionable material would ever see that stage. Mr. Fox has taken the theatre, we are in the Oakland County Circuit Court, he has pulled out 1400 seats from the bottom floor and is turning it into a rock and roll nightclub. I appeared before the Royal Oak City Council last week to object to that and to tell them that we are trying to terminate his tenancy. Mr. Fox, in his court pleadings, talks about the fact that the reason I did that is because he is my competitor. Now tonight he said he would be glad to have a competitor but in court pleadings he brings up the very shows that we have talked about here. Mr. Fox also declares by some magical formula that he punched into a computer, that we can't make any money. Well very possibly we can't make any money. I choose to believe that is not correct. He has called me a liar. Everything I have told the council is true. I own the building. Obviously there is a mortgage on the building. All of the shows that I have booked are here. I have a letter from Columbia Artists Theatrical. I will pass this to you. I did not whiteout the amount of money that I have paid for the shows. I want you to read this letter. I want you to keep it confidential because I don't want Mr. Fox to know what I am paying for. His reason for coming here is very simple. Mr. Fox has the Fox Theatre that will compete with us for certain shows. Mr. Fox has the Royal ``.r Oak Theatre where he would like to have shows and he indicated in court pleadings that many of the shows he wanted to have were ours so there is a very, very selfish reason, not the Knight on the white horse that lives in Livonia that came up here with no ulterior motive. As I said before we can open the theatre and we have the zoning. We can go in there without a liquor license. It would be very difficult to be successful. It would be a major handicap. I think when you see the prices on this letter and when you read it and when you understand that what we have done is everything that I have told you and everything that I have put in writing and have presented to you, then I think you must look at this man for what he is, a competitor who is going to be thrown out of his building in Royal Oak because he has destroyed a building. They have taken a building that was not designated as a historical landmark but designated in the memory of people as a wonderful facility and they are changing it into a rock and roll venue. They are changing it into a bar. That is not our intention to do at this theatre. Mr. Fox's reasons are not to save the City of Livonia from me or from anyone else but to save himself from competition and to be in a position to try to harass me in my presentation to the council because of the pending litigation in the Oakland County Courts. In fact, it is going to be heard by Judge Nichols on Friday. I am going to pass this around, if you 12124 care to look at it. I would like to have it back. I don't want copies made of it. I think this will certainly show you that we do have these shows. I resent very, very much the accusations that were made. In fact I am glad my counsel is here with me this evening and I am glad this is on television because we are certainly going to review that and maybe there will be a 23rd lawsuit I will be involved in when I sue Mr. Fox for defamation of character. Mr. McCann: Mr. Fox is a citizen of Livonia. He can bring concerns. Whether they are tainted from past experiences with you or whatever, that is not really our greatest concern here tonight. He did raise some questions which we believe were valid or have some basis and we want to know what we are getting into. I am big on private enterprise and what I see sounds wonderful but I want to know as much about it as I can to protect the citizens of Livonia. You say you have bought this building. Have you closed on the property? Mr. Gorelick: Yes I have. Mr. McCann: Did you buy it under a Land Contract? Mr. Gorelick: Yes I did. Mr. McCann: There are no conditions under which you could reverse this contract? Mr. Gorelick: I would lose the building if I didn't make my payments. Mr. McCann: You stated you had numerous contracts with the shows in your booklet here. Have you paid any money down on these? Mr. Gorelick: A letter of credit is being issued by the National Bank of Detroit. Mr. McCann: So no money has been paid at this point? Mr. Gorelick: It is not as simple as Mr. Fox talks about it, 50% deposit. We are putting up a letter of credit in the amount of a quarter of a million dollars to secure these attractions. I will be glad to have my banker call you. Mr. McCann: No, I just want to know if they signed a contract. Mr. Gorelick: In one respect Mr. Fox is correct, the contracts individually have not been signed. The theory and the concept has been approved and all that we are waiting for to initiate each one of the contracts is a letter of credit to be issued by the National Bank of Detroit. Mr. McCann: You indicated it has been 17 years since you have been in the pornographic business. You haven't had any theatres during that time? Mr. Gorelick: The last theatre that I had was the Royal Oak, which I developed, then started doing the shows there and then leased it to Paragon. 12125 I have been out of the theatre business for the last 14 years. Do you want to know what I have been doing for the last 14 years Mr. McCann? Mr. McCann: Absolutely. Mr. Gorelick: I am in the medical management business. We have dermatology centers located in all the suburban areas except Livonia and we are negotiating a lease for Livonia. The company employs over a 100 people. The name of the company is Advance Dermatology Centers. I am very proud of the company. It has taken 12 years and we are the largest dermatology practice in the State of Michigan, with the exception of Ford Hospital. Mr. McCann: Who do you own that with? Mr. Gorelick: I am the sole shareholder. I don't do the dermatology. I am not a physician. We handle the medical management of the center for the dermatologists. Mr. LaPine: Let's assume that what Mr. Fox said is true, that the numbers are not there and you go ahead and start the operation and you find you can't make it and the only way to make it is to rip up the seats and make it into a dinner theatre. Is that a possibility? Mr. Gorelick: Again, the food service business is not something that I have an interest in. I would like to make a comment. At the closing yesterday when Mr. George signed the papers, after the conversation Mr. George started to laugh. He said if we hadn't been working on this I have had four phone calls from people who want to buy the +rr.• theatre. I said who are my competitiors. He said well one is a very personal friend of mine and I promised I wouldn't tell you who he is. I said does he own a theatre downtown in Detroit called the Fox and Mr. George started to laugh and then shook his head in the affirmative. So what Mr. Fox is trying to do is not be a White Knight. He is trying to preclude competition and he is dragging up all the ghosts from the past, anything that he can lay his hands on, and he is trying to be in a position to think that is going to change. As you remember, coming in for the liquor license is only a part of the program that we have. I think it is an integral part of the program. We need the revenue. Mr. Fox talks about investors. He talks about hounding the people of Livonia. He talks about doing all these things. My purchase of the theatre was not contingent upon getting a liquor license. If it was, we would not have closed. All of this is puffery. It is air and it has been very demeaning to me. I can't deny my background. I deny that I have ever done anything criminal. Along with the theatres that I owned that were x-rated, I also owned theatres that were regular theatres. I certainly owned the Royal Oak Theatre as my last one and didn't turn that into an x-rated theatre or into anything else except a wonderful facility that Mr. Fox and his group want to destroy and turn into a rock and roll club so they can profit from it in a much greater way. 12126 Mr. LaPine: You have stated that a liquor license is not necessary to operate the theatre although the additional revenue could be the difference between making or breaking the operation? Mr. Gorelick: That is correct. Mr. LaPine: What would happen if you went in to operate the theatre and a year from now you came back for the liquor license? Could you operate for a year without the license and then we would have a better handle on the operation and then we could look at the liquor license at a time in the future. Mr. Gorelick: That would be a wonderful thing except I think we would be doing it in reverse. I think the first year of operation is the most critical. We are pioneering. We are going to be bringing people to Livonia from all over southeastern Michigan and we need the revenue at this point in time. I don't know what kind of constraints and controls you can put on it. I am not familiar with how liquor licenses are given or issued or what the City can or cannot do. I would be willing for you to do anything at all to give me a license for a year, that would be renewable on a yearly basis so that we can get through the first year because that is the critical year. Mr. Morrow: Just for clarification. We are certainly looking at a waiver here tonight for a Class C but I don't think we are granting one. Mr. Nagy: The City still has about six licenses yet to award that are unused. Mr. Morrow: So the City grants it? '`. Mr. Nagy: The applicant can make an application to the Michigan Liquor Control Commission and the request is referred to the City of Livonia for the investigation as to the character and the background of the applicant. Mr. Morrow: Which is probably conducted by the Livonia Police Department and recommended to the City Council? Mr. Nagy: Exactly and the City Council will make the determination. Mr. Morrow: As I said earlier I have no problem with adults consuming adult beverages within the constraints we have heard here tonight. However, to say I am confused would be an understatement. We certainly heard a lot here tonight. I wanted to get in the record what it takes to get a Class C liquor license. Mr. Gorelick: I didn't know Mr. Morrow. As I said I am not familiar with liquor licenses or methods of obtaining them. I would certainly, because of what Mr. Nagy mentioned that it has to go through the Livonia Police Department, I have to be investigated, it has to go through the Liquor Control Commission. I have to be investigated and also my finances. All the things that I have put on the table here for you tonight. I would appreciate very, very much, because time is 12127 of the essence. We are opening in September. If you would approve this tonight and allow people that are fair and impartial to judge me, not my competitors and not somebody I am involved in litigation with that would like to stop me from having a liquor license and would like to inhibit and limit my chances of success. Mr. Alanskas: On page three of your presentation it says Agreed and Accepted by Center Stage Productions. Is that your signature as President? Mr. Gorelick: Yes and it is Mr. Burns' signature too. Mr. Alanskas: Is that signature to approve the name of the theatre or the contract for him to perform? Mr. Gorelick: That is excerpted from the contract. That was to show you that he had approved the name of the theatre. That is a signed contract with Mr. Burns. There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 92-5-2-18 closed. On a motion duly made by Mrs. Fandrei, seconded by Mr. Tent and unanimously approved, it was #t6-388-92 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing on Petition 92-5-2-18 by Center Stage Productions, Ltd. requesting waiver use approval to utilize a Class C liquor license for a proposed performing arts theatre located on the northeast corner of Plymouth and Farmington Roads in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 27, the City Planning Commission does hereby detrrmine to table Petition 92-5-2-18 until the study meeting of July 14, 1992. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 92-5-2-19 by Thrifty Car Rental requesting waiver use approval to operate a car rental counter in the showroom of Auto Express at Wonderland Montgomery Ward located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middlebelt Road and Milburn Avenue in the Northeast 1/4 of Section 35. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Nagy: We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating they have no objections to this waiver use proposal. We have also received a letter from the Traffic Bureau stating they have no objections to the plans as presented. Also in our file is a letter from the Fire Marshal's office stating they have no objections to this proposal. Lastly, we have received a letter from the Ordinance Enforcement Division stating no deficiencies or problems were found, therefore they have no objections to this proposal. 12128 Mr. Engebretson: Would the petitioner please come forward. Jeff Warmolts, Romulus: We would like to put a Thrifty Car Rental counter inside Montgomnery Ward Auto Express. Thrifty has entered into a joint marketing venture with Montgomery Wards. We accept their credit cards. It will be called Thrifty Car Rental and Montgomery Ward Car Rental. We want just a small counter inside the Auto Express store. We plan on running about 15 cars out of that location. We need five to 8 parking spaces. Mrs. Fandrei: Where would you be parking these cars? In front of the building or away in the parking area? Mr. Warmolts: Right in front of the building where the diagonal lines are. Mrs. Fandrei: You are going to be striping that area? Mr. Warmolts: There is striping there now. Mrs. Fandrei: I didn't see any in front of the building. Mr. Warmolts: If it is not striped, we will stripe it. Mr. Morrow: Where do you expect most of your clientele to come from? Mr. Warmolts: From the local neighborhoods. People with their cars in the local dealerships, body shops, etc. People are keeping their cars longer so they need a car to rent once in a while. They rent cars for special occasions, We rent convertibles, mini vans, etc. Mr. Morrow: When you mention mini vans, would that be something that would `r normally be part of your cadre of cars there or would it be something you would bring in on special arrangements? Mr. Warmolts: We pool our cars in the Detroit area. Most of our cars are kept at the airport and we have five different offices in the Detroit area so far. When we are done with them we take them back to the airport. That is why we don't need many spaces. Mr. LaPine: Within probably a mile or mile and a half radius we have now eight rental car establishments. We just approved one a couple of weeks ago at the motel down the street. We have a couple of car dealers that rent cars. To me we are getting over saturated with these rentals. Is there that big of a market that you are all going to be able to make it? Mr. Warmolts: We haven't had a problem so far. Competition is good. You always go where the competition is. We have a lot of models that the other dealers don't carry. We have a little more variety. Mr. Tent: Mr. Warmolts, you are not going to rent any trucks there are you? Mr. Warmolts: No sir. Mr. Tent: What is the size of the mini-van? `.. 12129 Mr. Warmolts: Seven-passenger Dodge Caravan. Mr. Tent: Where will these vehicles be serviced? Mr. Warmolts: At the airport. ''`' Mr. Tent: No service will be done on the premises? Mr. Warmolts: Unless we hire it done by Auto Express. We have our own mechanic at the airport. Mr. Engebretson: Regarding the issues of trucks. Your answer gave the impression that you wouldn't be troubled if you were approved with a condition there not be any trucks stored on this location or any trucks in your fleet. Mr. Warmolts: No, I don't have any trucks. I have some 15-passenger vans I would bring on request. Mr. Engebretson: The reason for asking this is in another experience we reached the end of a public hearing and they said yes there would probably be a truck there once in a while, a small one, and that site now is just swamped with trucks. Trucks everywhere. It is my personal opinion that it was always the intent. So we are very interested in making sure that something like that never happens again. Mr. Warmolts: I understand. It is not our intent. I do not own any trucks. I have 15-passenger vans, which church groups rent to go to Cedar Point. We don't store them. We bring them in on request. I have car payments on these just like everyone else has on their cars and I have to have 80% utilization in order to break even. Mr. Engebretson: I understand all of that but trucks provide an opportunity to make a profit also. Mr. Warmolts: I don't own any. Mr. Morrow: I just had the occasion to use Thrifty in the last couple of weeks because I had to rent a van and outside of making the trip out to the airport to pick up the van, Thrifty was the only one I could pick up in a semi-reasonable area so I didn't have to drive to the airport and back to Rochester and then back to Adrian. It can be a matter of convenience to a community if you want a van because they will bring it out to you. Mr. Alanskas: Do you get phone calls from people saying do you rent trucks? Mr. Warmolts: We get phone calls yes. Mr. Alanskas: What would keep you from getting a truck and renting it to a customer? Mr. Warmolts: My insurance. There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 92-5-2-19 closed. `r. 12130 On a motion duly made by Mr. Tent, seconded by Mr. McCann and unanimously approved, it was #6-389-92 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on Petition 92-5-2-19 by Thrifty Car Rental requesting waiver use approval to operate a car rental counter in the showroom of Auto Express at Wonderland Montgomery Ward located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middlebelt Road and Milburn Avenue in the Northeast 1/4 of Section 35, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 92-5-2-19 be approved subject to a limitation on the number of rental cars to be parked or stored on site to 8 vehicles for the following reasons: 1) That the proposed use is in compliance with all of the special and general waiver use standards and requirements as set forth in Section 11.03 and 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance ##543. 2) That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the proposed use. 3) That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony with the surrounding uses in the area. 4) That the parking of a maximum of 8 cars on site will not overburden the area nor will it conflict with the normal operation of the adjacent facilities. 5) That the site shall be strictly restricted to passenger cars and mini vans plus 15-seat passenger vans upon request. ‘01111. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Mr. Morrow left the meeting at this time. Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 92-3-3-2 by John Ray requesting to vacate a portion of an existing 46' wide public utilities easement across Lot 70, Gold Manor Estates Subdivision, located on the west side of Gill Road between Curtis Avenue and Seven Mile Road in the north 1/2 of Section 9. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Nagy: We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating it is their understanding that the Detroit Edison Company, Michigan Bell Telephone and cable facilities are located in these areas to be retained. They state this information should be verified with the utility companies involved. They further state since there are no City-maintained utilities within the easement in question, they have no objections to the vacation. 12131 Mr. Engebretson: Is the petitioner here? (The petitioner was not present) It is not really necessary that he be here. Is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak for or against this petition? There was no one present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 92-3-3-2 closed. `r. On a motion duly made by Mr. LaPine and seconded by Mrs. Fandrei, it was #6-390-92 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 16, 1992 on Petition 92-3-3-2 by John Ray requesting to vacate a portion of an existing 46' wide public utilities easement across Lot 70, Gold Manor Estates Subdivision, located on the west side of Gill Road between Curtis Avenue and Seven Mile Road in the north 1/2 of Section 9, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 92-3-3-2 be approved for the following reasons: 1) That the subject easement area is no longer needed to serve any public or private utility. 2) That the City Engineer recommends the subject vacating. 3) That no City department or public utility company has objected to the proposed vacating. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above public hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 12.08.030 of the Livonia Code of Ordinances. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: 'stair AYES: Tent, McCann, LaPine, Alanskas, Fandrei, Engebretson NAYS: None ABSENT: Gniewek, Morrow Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Mr. Morrow returned to the meeting at this time. Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 92-4-6-3 by the City Planning Commission to determine whether or not to amend Section 18.45 of the Zoning Ordinance so as to provide for the substitution of a greenbelt in lieu of a protective wall. Mr. Engebretson: As Mrs. Fandrei said this is a City Planning Commission petition and the purpose of this petition is to expand the ordinance that deals with protective walls separating industrial or commercial and residential properties and what this does is to add some options. It adds the option of providing a greenbelt in lieu of a wall. It doesn't, in any way, take away any opportunity to construct a wall where it is appropriate. It simply gives us this option. There was no one in the audience wishing to be heard on this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Petition 92-4-6-3 closed. 12132 On a motion duly made by Mr. Alanskas and seconded by Mr. Morrow, it was #6-391-92 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 16, 1992 on Petition 92-4-6-3 by the City Planning Commission to determine whether or not to amend Section 18.45 of the Zoning Ordinance so as to provide for the substitution of a greenbelt in lieu of a protective Nom. wall, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 92-4-6-3 be approved for the following reasons: 1) That the proposed amendment will provide for more flexibility in determining proper and adequate screening between non-residential uses and residential uses. 2) That the proposed amendment will give the City more control over the design and type of screening to be used. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended. Mr. Engebretson: I would like to add that the proposed ordinance change is very specific as to what this screening would consist of, both in terms of type of plantings, etc. It is a very specific ordinance. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Tent, McCann, Morrow, Alanskas, Fandrei, Engebretson NAYS: LaPine ABSENT: Gniewek Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. *Mr. Gniewek entered the meeting at this time. Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Preliminary Plat approval for Pines of Winfield Subdivision proposed to be located south of Seven Mile Road and east of Wayne Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 9. Mr. Bakewell presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning of the surrounding area. Mr. Nagy: We have received a letter from the Fire Marshal's office stating they have no objections to the development subject to the installation of proper water mains and hydrants. We have also received a letter from the Department of Parks & Recreation stating they foresee no problem with this project as submitted. A letter from the Engineering Department states they have no objections to the proposal. They further state that appropriate pavement widenings of Seven Mile Road will be required to provide ingress and egress to the subdivision area. Further, sidewalks will be required along both the Seven Mile Road frontage as well as the east line of Bonnie Lane from Seven Mile Road south to Lot 25. 12133 Further, they would require that a curb and gutter section be placed along a small portion of Wayne Road which abuts the west line of the preliminary plat. Mr. Engebretson: Will the petitioner please come down. `''or Joe Durso, 35209 Seven Mile Road: I am proposing a new subdivision. Hopefully a very nice one. The lots are going to be approximately 90' x 180' . The square footage of the homes is going to be colonials and cape cods 2700 square feet and ranches around 2200 square feet. They will be similar to what was done on Gary Lane. That is basically all I have to say. If you have any questions, I will be glad to answer them to the best of my knowledge. Mr. Morrow: Mr. Durso, I see on the plat it looks like some residences that are dotted in. Will those remain or will they be removed? Mr. Durso: They will eventually be removed. The residence on the corner is my original home site and what we are planning to do is as we develop the subdivision, we now live in the second house, at the end of the development, we will take the first house down and put a new home up there and then on the second one, we will do the same thing. Eventually they all will be replaced. Mr. Morrow: I think there is an access off Wayne Roads, would that be closed off? Mr. Durso: No, that will be the driveway. Mr. Morrow: Is there any time frame connected with this development, in other words when these homes would come down? Mr. Durso: What I am going to propose is to have them come down at the end of the construction so it will take approximately two years. Mr. Tent: Mr. Nagy, this is a preliminary site plan so we will get a chance to look at the final when everything is all put together? We have a note here indicating that in the preliminary site plan it has been revised to include a greenbelt easements and landscape plans. I haven't seen these preliminary plans. Has that been included now or will that be something that Mr. Durso should be aware of? Mr. Nagy: The plat has been revised to designate 30 foot wide greenbelt easements that are required by ordinance along the frontages of Seven Mile and Wayne Road. The condition that the staff is recommending to the approval is that a greenbelt landscape plan be submitted for your approval to show actually how that greenbelt easement area will, in fact, be established and we are asking for that plan to be submitted to you for your review and approval before the final plat is submitted. The same as we are recommending with regard to the subdivision entrance marker. That would be part of your recommendation for approval. Mr. McCann: When would you look to be starting construction? 12134 Mr. Durso: As soon as we get approval. Mr. McCann: What is the price range of the homes? Mr. Durso: I imagine they will be around $220,000 and up. Mr. McCann: Have you come up with estimates of what your lots are going to cost? Mr. Durso: $70,000 and up. Mrs. Fandrei: How wide is the street Joe? Mr. Durso: Sixty feet. I have an island entrance. Mrs. Fandrei: Is this a private road or a public road? Mr. Durso: Public. Mr. Alanskas: Would the homes be brick on all four sides? Mr. Durso: I would say absolutely. Partially up the full front. Mr. Alanskas: What would be left would be what? Mr. Durso: A vinyl coated siding. At that price range we are talking about, it would have to be nice. Mr. Engebretson: Is there anyone in the audience who wishes to speak for or against this proposed plot? 'taw John Bros, 35368 Banbury: I am here to talk for myself. I guess a couple of my patriots have left for the evening. I live on Lot 3, which is just to the southwest end of the new subdivision. I basically have no objection to the building of the subdivision. What I am here to point out is I think we have a problem with water drainage. I have lived in this subdivision for 11 years. I purchased two years after it started. I bought into a house that had a flood in the backyard. The drainage was from Wayne Road east and there was a surface drain I think in the east corner of Lot 4 so the water was supposed to drain from Wayne all the way east. It never did and doesn't even to this day. Two years after moving in, with the engineer Gary Clark, I was allowed, with my neighbor's help, to install a crock for drainage. The City approved it. There is still a drainage problem. The ground is soft when there is excessive rain. When the snow melts there is quite a big puddle that goes across the back of my yard. My neighbor in Lot 4 has the same issue. Our concern is if this subdivision is developed and the streets are put in, even with the drainage that will be put in for the subdivision, with the cement and the driveways, etc. the drainage is going to change and there will be substantial more runoff than there is today. That runoff, because we are lower than that property, will tend to come our way. My request, and I have discussed this with the builder and he has talked with the 12135 engineers, my request is we have the Engineering Department review and make a recommendation on a better method for drainage than exists today and that be contained as part of the final approval plan. I think Mr. Durso is in agreement that he needs to do something. My concern is he asked what he should do and I don't know. I think I need some professional help. I am not sure what my neighbor in Lot 4 wants to do but I will be content if we can just eliminate the water in my backyard. Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Nagy, is it necessary that that be part of any resolution or can we just seek the Engineering Department's assistance here in dealing with these issues for the benefit of all concerned? Mr. Nagy: We will have the Engineering Department look at it. We really tonight are dealing with the layout, etc. There will be a final set of engineering plans and resolutions and all those issues will be addressed with the Engineering Department and we will make sure they are addressed. Mr. Engebretson: That will be done as a matter of normal procedures. We can alert the Engineering Department regarding a known situation and they could start getting their homework done. Mr. Morrow: The important part is whenever we develop land our intent is not to make it any worse. Hopefully we will make it better. Mr. Engebretson: Hopefully there is a way that can be worked out here. Mr. Durso: I would like to address that. I am very concerned also. We have had the gentleman out from Soley Construction to look at the site and see where the pitch is at, etc. We will work with the 1'0r recommendation of the City, whatever they feel is best to eliminate the problem. I didn't even know about it until they told me about it. I would be more than happy to correct it at this point. I am sure we can do it with just proper grading and proper drainage. There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the public hearing on Preliminary Plat approval for Pines of Winfield Subdivision closed. On a motion duly made by Mrs. Fandrei, seconded by Mr. LaPine and unanimously approved, it was ##6-392-92 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held on June 16, 1992 on Preliminary Plat approval for Pines of Winfield Subdivision proposed to be located south of Seven Mile Road and east of Wayne Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 9, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Preliminary Plat for Pines of Winfield Subdivision be approved subject to the submittal of a landscape plan for such greenbelts and a subdivision entrance marker plan to the Planning Commission for its approval prior to the approval of the Final Plat for the following reasons: 1) That the Preliminary Plat is drawn in compliance with all applicable standards and requirements set forth in the Zoning Ordinance #543 and the Subdivision Rules and Regulations. 12136 2) That the design of the Preliminary Plat represents a good solution to the development of the subject lands. 3) That no City department had objected to approval of the Preliminary Plat. FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was sent to the abutting property owners, proprietor, City Departments as listed in the Proof of Service, and copies of the plat together with the notices have been sent to the Building Department, Superintendent of Schools, Fire Department, Police Department, and the Parks and Recreation Department. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, announced that the public hearing portion of the meeting is concluded and the Commission would proceed with items pending before it. The next item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes of the 643rd Regular Meeting held on June 2, 1992. On a motion duly made by Mr. LaPine and seconded by Mr. Gniewek, it was ##6-393-92 RESOLVED that, the minutes of the 643rd Regular Meeting held on June 2, 1992 are approved. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Tent, McCann, Gniewek, LaPine, Morrow, Engebretson NAYS: None ABSTAIN: Fandrei, Alanskas Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. The next item on the agenda is Petition 92-6-8-7 by Stark Road Gospel Hall requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to remodel and expand the existing worship hall on the east side of Stark Road just north of Hines Drive in Section 33. Mr. Bakewell: This is a proposal by the Stark Road Gospel Hall to enlarge their existing facility. The proposal is to put an addition on essentially the south side of the existing church and with that addition there will also be a pickup drop-off canopy. (Mr. Bakewell presented the various plans. ) Kerry Ferguson, 34079 Richland: A few points about the Stark Road Gospel and the people that attend there. We have been occupants of that building for almost 25 years and in these two and a half decades, as you probably recall, we have even served as a local Livonia post when there was a Edward Hines Task Force. We have been unobtrusive neighbors to the local residents and have responded to all their needs. We believe we have also responded to the City with the fir.. 12137 request that they had with their building inspection that they have made yearly to our building. I believe we have responded quickly and expediently to all of the concerns of the City as well as the residents. I ask that you approve this site plan this evening. Mr. Alanskas: In the back of the building where you have the air conditioners, you have a cyclone fence around them with barbed wire. What is the barbed wire there for? Mr. Ferguson: In addition to myself being here we have some other members of our assembly. We also have the architect that is preparing the architectural plans. There are some questions I may have to defer to someone else. As I remember when we added the air conditioning we were concerned with security, kids climbing in and damaging the compressor units, so it was strictly to keep the kids or any vandalism from occuring to the air conditioning. Mr. Alanskas: Mr. Nagy, is that allowed? Mr. Nagy: The City does prohibit barbed wire outside of the industrial area. Mr. Alanskas: You have a dumpster in the very back of the lot. I was there Saturday and it was turned upside down. There was trash all over the area. I was there Monday and today and it still was all over. When is that picked up? It looks nasty. Mr. Ferguson: It just started occuring in the past three weeks that some kids have overturned it and last weekend it was just righted. Then by Sunday it had been overturned again by kids. To answer your question, it is picked up on an as-needed basis. Our trash is contained in plastic bags and put inside the container. Unfortunately, people use that as a public dumping place. Once we got the container, a lot of people just come by and throw stuff at it. We do pick it up and put it inside. Sometimes we have had to make extra pickups to haul it away. I don't know what we can do about it. Mr. Alanskas: I have a suggestion. You could screen it possibly. If you got a bigger dumpster, it couldn't be tipped over. Mr. Ferguson: Your suggestion is an excellent one to keep us from vandalism problems, which just started occuring. We really haven't had a chance to address it. Mrs. Fandrei: You have a very nice looking building and property. Too bad it is so far away. The trees that are being removed for the addition. Are any of those going to be replaced? Mr. Ferguson: There are two or three dead trees along the border. Mrs. Fandrei: I mean right next to the building? Mr. Ferguson: Those have become a nuisance because they are dying and dropping leaves and filling up the gutters. We want to do a nice job in landscaping. Yes we would plan to landscape that area and to what extent we haven't fully discussed that yet. 12138 Mrs. Fandrei: You don't have a landscape plan for us at this time? Mr. Ferguson: No specific plan. Mr. Morrow: Pursuing this dumpster, is there any way perhaps your trash could be handled in a normal manner by City pickup as opposed to having a '`. dumpster? I can't imagine the church would generate that much trash. Mr. Ferguson: We certainly would be willing to consider that. The only obstacle would be the place to store it until Tuesday morning. Mr. Morrow: Possibly the lesser of two evils. Mr. Engebretson: Regarding the barbed wire, it isn't legal. I understand why you have it. I would like to ask you to consider removing that barbed wire and possibly using a cyclyone fence around the fence to keep the vandals away. You have some expensive air conditioning equipment there and I can understand why you would want to protect that but there may be a better way. One place you wouldn't expect to see barbed wire would be on church property. Mr. Ferguson: I think I can speak for the assembly that we will not only consider it but we will have that removed. We were not aware it was not in compliance. We will look at that right away. Mr. Engebretson: When we go through these processes we take advantage to address all these issues. On that subject, I would like to ask you about the property at the rear of the church which appears to be grass. Is that grass or just a natural growth back there. If so, what do you do about keeping that reasonably short? Mr. Ferguson: It has been the policy to mow a 15 to 20 foot strip at the current grass height. For liability reasons we decided to leave the other length longer to reduce the number of children playing in the field, playing ball, riding motor bikes, etc. To reduce the number of children playing in the field we decided to leave that at approximately twice the height of the other grass. Mr. Engebretson: John, what does the ordinance say to that issue? Mr. Nagy: Six inches is the maximum height. Alex Joyce, 31626 Myrna: Originally we used to cut everything right back to Shady Hollow. Then we got into a problem where teenagers were coming during the week and playing ball back at the southeast corner and the neighbors who had small children were very concerned about their children being hurt by the ball and also by the language that the teenagers were using and they came to us and asked if we could so something to stop it being used as a playing field. Our approach to it was to leave the grass long enough that it wasn't usable as a baseball diamond and the neighbors were happy. That is why we started leaving the back part longer. 'r► 12139 Mr. Engebretson: We certainly aren't going to put any hardship on you. Obviously we would only have that come to the attention of the City as a result of a complaint. We are not going to be sending inspectors out there to check on the grass. On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann, seconded by Mr. LaPine and unanimously approved, it was ##6-394-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby approve Petition 92-6-8-7 by Stark Road Gospel Hall requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of Zoning Ordinance ##543 in connection with a proposal to remodel and expand the existing worship hall on the east side of Stark Road just north of Hines Drive in Section 33 subject to the following conditions: 1) That the Site Plan as shown on the sheet marked Stark Road Gospel Hall dated 4/10/92 is hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2) That Building Plans as shown on Sheets 1 and 2 of Job #PR-001 by Stark Road Gospel Hall dated 5/5/92 are hereby approved and shall be adhered to. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Mr. Tent: Mr. Chairman, have we resolved in our resolution the problem with the dumpster? Are we going to screen it? Also the barbed wire? Should that be part of the resolution. Mr. Engebretson: At the moment there is nothing as part of the resolution that `. addresses those specific items. We have on the record commitments that the barbed wire will be taken care of. We have on the record acknowledgment from both points of view that the dumpster is a problem and there are multiple solutions to that problem, which one is the correct solution, we don't know. Mr. LaPine: How much trash do you accumulate? How often would you have to call someone to empty the dumpster? Mr. Ferguson: Approximately two to three weeks. Mr. LaPine: Maybe you could look into getting a small compactor that you could throw everything in and pack it down. You should be able to find a place to store those in the hall and then put them out for the City to pick up. That is another possibility. Mr. Ferguson: I think that is a great idea for us to consider. Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Permit Application by Jeff Neuhalfen for a Satellite Disc Antenna on property located at 17571 Lathers in Section 12. Mr. Bakewell: This is a proposal to retain a satellite disc that is located on this property. The existing dish is at the northern end of the home. It is an eight foot dish mounted on a 21 foot pole. 12140 Mike Zuremski: I am here on behalf of Jeff Neuhalfen. We are requesting to retain the satellite disc installed on his property. I have letters from the adjoining neighbors saying they don't mind having a satellite dish installed on the property. We belive the municipal safety and aesthetic needs can be met while keeping the door open to new vital new media technology and preserving our first amendment err rights to receive information. Zoning regulations cannot infringe upon the public's right of expression protected under the first amendment, which is the right to receive information. Dishes provide an unique ability to receive scores of information and programs not available by any other means. Restrictive zoning ordinances leave customers without adequate means of receiving services. Unlike TV and radio signals, which can bend over the horizon, satellite dish signals must travel in a straight line from transmitter to receiver. Obstructions such as trees and buildings interefere with satellite reception. By forcing people to comply with the rigid location requirements, most people would be unable to install and use a satellite dish antenna. The FCC has pre-empted restrictive zoning ordinances affecting satellite dish antennas. I have a 13 page legal report prepared by the General Counsel of the American Satellite Association that outlines federal regulations, basically explains why the satellite disc has to be mounted in the type of position it is. The dish has to face due west and any trees or buildings will interfere with the picture. With Jeff's particular location he has a river behind his house with cherry trees all across the back. The only way to get over the top of these trees would be to put the dish where we put it. If you want him to move it, we can put it on top of the roof or we can move it in the front yard, which would make it more visible than it is now. In the front yard of the house there are mature trees covering the whole front. Down the road you do not see the 41111. dish whatsoever. It is my understanding the building inspector went by and he didn't even notice the satellite dish. He hard to look very hard to even notice it was there. The federal law has spoken unequivocally about the right to use and install a satellite dish. The FCC made it clear about guaranteeing the constitutional rights of dish owners. A community is limited in the types of restrictions it can apply. It cannot unreasonably limit or prevent reception by requiring, for example, that satellite dishes be screened from view so the size is obscure. In this particular case, which is unusual, it is obscure from the front of the house. The satellite dish in this location is an eight foot dish, which is smaller than most installations. We would appreciate getting approval on this matter. Mr. Tent: Mike, can you tell me who you are? Are you the owner of the property? Mr. Zuremski: I am the owner of the satellite company. Jeff does all my dish installations. Mr. Tent: Were you aware you have to get a permit within the City of Livonia to install the satellite disc? Mr. Zuremski: No. `r. 12141 Mr. Tent: We recognize what you were saying about the FCC regulations. We recognize that is true but we have an ordinance within our own City. We are concerned about screning and positioning of the antennas. We are not trying to take them away from you. If you can come up with a location that is not detrimental to the City, to fir. the neighbors, etc. that is fine. That is our big concern. Mr. Zuremski: I do apologize. We were not aware of the zoning ordinance. As a matter of fact, the FCC has also spoken about zoning ordinances. They cannot discriminate between satellite dish antennas and a broad band antenna. A broad band antenna is a regular antenna that sits on top of the roof. Your City does not have an ordinance that requires screening and a building permit to install a broad band antenna so we assumed none was required for a satellite dish. Most cities, in the State of Michigan, do not require permits for satellite dish antennas. Mr. Tent: We do have an ordinance in the City of Livonia and it has been passed by the City Council. Is that correct Mr. Nagy? Mr. Nagy: That is correct. Mr. Engebretson: The key word in your references to the first amendment rights and the FCC regulations, etc. is the aesthetic impact on a community and as the petitioner knows, we are concerned about protecting the aesthetic impact on neighbors and our concern is then to screen that satelitte dish properly in order to give that relief while at the same time being able to zero in on whatever satellites you wish. We have no interest in interfering with the operation of those units. On the other hand, we do have a basis for protecting the aesthetic impact on the community and the FCC acknowledges `. that. Mr. Zuremski: You are correct. I would like to take it a step further. The satellite dish is very well screened. You cannot see it from the street whatsoever. We have letters from the neighbors saying they don't mind the aesthetics of the satellite dish and they don't mind it being next to their house. The FCC also states they cannot put restrictions on aesthetics that would limit reception of the satellite signal. By placing it any lower would restrict him from getting a picture and that is against the FCC rules. Mr. Engebretson: We are not here to debate the law. We all have our various points of view. We have our job to do and you have yours. I would like to ask the question, are these two letters from your adjacent neighbors? Mr. Neuhalfen: Yes. Mr. Engebretson: When I visited that property I had a hard time finding it. It is well screened, therefore, I have no objection to that particular issue. However, I want to make it clear my support of this has everything to do with the City ordinance and if it is luck, so be it, but you have a wonderful opportunity to locate it in a manner 12142 which has no aesthetic impact on your neighborhood or the community. I just want to make it clear that while the comments made earlier may all be points of fact, as far as I am concerned the issues have always been clear here and my support is based exclusively on the points I mentioned. "oft. Mr. Alanskas: I was also out there and it is very well screened. How many other dishes have you installed in Livonia? Mr. Zuremski: I have never put one in Livonia. Jeff put it in himself. Mr. Neuhalfen: Including mine, I have installed two. Mr. Morrow: This ordinance that was written was written in reaction to what we saw going up in the community. The people installing those dishes were showing a total lack of consideration, not only for their neighbors but for the City. We feel with this ordinance we can accomplish both purposes. In a vast number of cases we have approved them. In a number of cases we have denied them where we felt the aesthetics were too negatively impacted. What we saw before this ordinance was a total lack of concern for the community and that is why we did it and we will continue to pursue that effort so that the people who want to receive the reception can receive it but also do it in harmony with their neighbors and the City. It is not a hardship. It is trying to co-exist. On a motion duly made by Mr. Gniewek, seconded by Mr. Alanskas and unanimously approved, it was #6-395-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby approve Permit Application by Jeff Neuhalfen for a Satellite Disc Antenna on property `liar located at 17571 Lathers in Section 12, subject to the following conditions: 1) That the Site Plan and Specifications submitted by Jeff Neuhalfen for a Satellite Disc Antenna at 17571 Lathers are hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2) That the proposed disc antenna location is such that it will not be detrimental to the aesthetic quality and tranquility of the neighborhood. Mr. Gniewek: Mr. Nagy, has there been any dialogue with the Inspection Department as far as if there are any permit fees or if there is any penalty for erecting these particular dish antennas without the benefit of a permit? Mr. Nagy: They were given a notice of violation. This is their attempt to comply. The only action the City will take is to tear up the notice of violation. Mr. Gniewek: Should the petitioner, or any future petitioners or people that install these particular dishes, not come before the proper autyhority as far as obtaining a permit, will there be any penalty? 12143 Mr. Nagy: Based upon the case that we have before us and at your direction, we did review the matter with the Inspection Department and they are looking into a program to address that issue. I don't know what they are going to come down with but it was brought to their attention. Mr. Gniewek: I just want to make that point that unless we have some teeth in the ordinance that exists, and some way to back up the fact that a permit is necessary, we are going to get many, many more dishes put up. I am sure there are several residents currently in the City, which have no apparent knowledge of needing a permit, no concept of aesthetics as far as the impact it would put on their neighbors and unless we do have something to back us up, we are going to have a lot of problems. I think it should be pursued. Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Permit Application by Khader Harb for a Satellite Disc Antenna on property located at 19701 Ashley Court in Section 5. Mr. Bakewell: This is a dish which already exists. It is a ten foot dish on an eighteen foot pole. Mr. Gniewek: Mr. Nagy this is another dish that was erected without a permit and this one was brought to us because of a complaint by a citizen. Is that correct? Mr. Nagy: That is correct. `401,,. Mr. Engebretson: We have heard from someone in the audience that the petitioner has had a heart attack and there is some dispute to that raised by what I would assume are neighbors. Let's proceed with the hearing. Mr. McCann: Mr. Chairman, this is not a public hearing but there is a group out there that has been very diligent so maybe if they have a spokesman to give their views, we could let them speak. Mr. Engebretson: If you are neighbors and you do have a spokesman, please come forward. Steve Walters, 19810 Ashley: The association had a meeting last evening with Mr. Harb present so we know he did not have a heart attack. We understand his situation in this matter and his reason for wanting a satellite dish in his yard. He is Arabic. He wishes to have the Arabic stations. We truly understand his situation and we feel for his situation, not being able to get that on the cable TV that is offered in Livonia. On the other hand, Whispering Hills does have By-Laws that were drawn up and each of the 22 residents that bought into the subdivision signed at the time and were required to sign before being able to purchase property in the neighborhood. One of the By-Laws is that no satellite dishes would be allowed, which is registered with the Register of Deeds here in Livonia and also this satellite dish was put up by a company on Memorial Day weekend `r 12144 without a permit so we question the integrity of the company that did put the satellite dish up. We feel for Mr. Harb and his wife that maybe they were taken to the cleaners by this company. Number one, not looking into the City and their ordinances and also into our By-Laws of our community. We just feel as an association, we are registered with the State of Michigan, that we are unable to accept one case and let it go by and have all the other covenants and restrictions of the By-Laws then be basically thrown out the window because if we let one go up, the next time it comes up, we will have the same situation happen and we will find ourselves here or worse off, having to have attorneys and being in front of a Justice. That is what we are trying to avoid and we are requesting that you deny the permit and if there is any help that we could get as an association as to how to help Mr. Harb in this situation, because in our meeting last night he basically asked us to help him because he also felt he was taken, and he did not understand, being Arabic and not having a full grasp on the English language, and the things he was up against in signing these papers. He didn't think he was doing anything wrong. We want to try to help him. If there is any recommendation from the Commission that we could pass on to Mr. Harb to try to get him to get back his money from the people that installed the dish illegally to begin with. Mrs. Fandrei: I don't think we can get into that. We must speak to the issue. You have 22 homes in your subdivision and Mr. Harb was one that signed the covenant? Mr. Walters: Yes he was. Everyone was required to sign before they were able to even sign the purchase order. Mrs. Fandrei: So he must have been aware at that time. I live in the area also. I noticed this before this came up and I guess I feel like your neighbors that this is something that is visible to everyone who drives Newburgh. As we explained earlier, we are trying to be compatible with the petitioner, the people who want this and all the neighbors and that one isn't conducive. Mr. Alanskas: I hate to reaffirm the same comments. It is almost like a billboard. It couldn't be in a worse position. On a motion duly made by Mr. Tent, seconded by Mr. McCann and unanimously approved, it was #6-396-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby deny Permit Application by Khader Harb for a Satellite Disc Antenna on property located at 19701 Ashley Court in Section 5 for the following reasons: 1) The petitioner has failed to affirmatively show that this proposal is in compliance with the general standards set forth in Section 19.06 of Zoning Ordinance #543. 2) That due to its size and location, this disc antenna would be detrimental to the aesthetic quality and beauty of the neighborhood in addition to people traveling the abutting thoroughfare by presenting a visual blight that could jeopardize the property values in the area as set forth in the comprehensive plan of the Zoning Ordinance. 12145 3) That the proposal fails to comply with Section 18.42 b. of Zoning Ordinance #543 in that it will have a detrimental effect on the physical appearance and aesthetic quality of the surrounding neighborhood. 44m. resolution Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Mrs. Fandrei, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Permit Application by Steve Shinoda for a Satellite Disc Antenna on property located at 18832 Gill Road in Section 9. Mr. Bakewell: This is a request to erect a satellite disc antenna. This one is not in existence. What he is proposing is a ten foot dish to be located on a ground mount. Gus Simone: I represent Steve Shinoda tonight. When we met a week ago, you gave us some paper work you would like to have tonight as far as the approval of the satellite system. He talked to everyone he could surrounding him and he has signatures from his neighbors. We just ask that you approve it for us. It is well screened. We would put in additional screening, although we don't think it is necessary, but we would be more than happy to. We are keeping it low and the reasons for him having a satellite dish are personal. We hope you approve it. We are trying to meet your needs as well as ours. Mrs. Fandrei: As you go down the side street, his back yard is view by people using that side street plus all the neighbors on that side street and there isn't any screening that would prevent a view of this dish that I could see. Mr. Simone: We would be more than happy to provide screening there against the fence to help obstruct that view. Mr. Tent: Could we make that part of the resolution? Mr. Engebretson: Yes. On a motion duly made by Mr. Morrow, seconded by Mr. Gniewek and unanimously approved, it was #6-397-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby approve Permit Application by Steve Shinoda for a Satellite Disc Antenna on property located at 18832 Gill Road in Section 9, subject to the following conditions: 1) That the Site Plan and Specifications submitted by Steve Shinoda for a Satellite Disc Antenna at 18832 Gill Road are hereby approved and shall be adhered to; 2) That the proposed disc antenna location is such that it will not be detrimental to the aesthetic quality and tranquility of the neighborhood. 12146 3) That the additional landscaping against the fence be installed within 30 days after the disc is installed. 4) That the petitioner has sought the approval of all surrounding and abutting neighbors and has received approval of these neighbors. Nifty Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 644th Regular Meeting and Public Hearings held on June 16, 1992 was adjourned at 11:40 p.m. CITY PLANNING COMMISSION S7 LI-e. /WA- .;','L- 1/7it t!‘1( Brenda Lee Fandrei, Secretary 1ATTEST: iL�14,1E74, Jac Engebre4son, Chairman jg `Alto `.ice