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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MINUTES 2016-05-24ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING HELD MAY 24, 2016 A Special Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, May 24, 2016. MEMBERS PRESENT: Gregory S. Coppola, Acting Chairman Jim Baringhaus, Acting Secretary Leo Neville Benjamin A. Schepis Timothy Klisz MEMBERS ABSENT. Matthew Henzi Craig Pastor OTHERS PRESENT: Mike Fisher, City Attorney Craig Hanosh, City Inspector Beth Niemczewski, CER -7224 The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Coppola explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight's minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Five (5) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 10 people present in the audience. (7:07) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 44 May 24, 2016 APPEAL CASE NO. 2096-04-30: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Livonia Center, LLC, 5640 W. Maple, Ste. 303, West Bloomfield, MI 48322, seeking to remove the current business center ground sign and replace it with a new ground sign, resulting in excess sign height and area. Ground Sign Height. Allowed: 8.0 ft. Proposed: 12.4 ft. Excess: 4.4 ft. Ground Sign Area: Allowed: 40 sq. ft. Proposed: 57 sq. ft. Excess: 17 sq. ft. The property is located on the east side of Middiebelt (16184), between Terrence and Sunnydale, Lot. No. 050--01-0336-002, C-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H,(b),1, "Sign Regulations in C- 1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts." Coppola: Petitioner could -- come up to the -- sit next to the microphone, please. State your name and address, please. Teodecki: I brought a visual, as well. Coppola: Perfect. I love visuals. Teodecki: My name is Dan Teodecki, 28010 Grosse Beck Highway in Roseville, Michigan. Coppola: Could you please spell the last name. I apologize. Teodecki: Yeah, T -e -o -d -e -c -k -i. Coppola: Okay. Thank you. Teodecki: And I'm helping represent Concord Plaza and Livonia Center today. And Livonia Center has a rather dated ground sign -- Coppola: Okay, if you could just wait so we can handle a couple procedure things -- Teodecki: Sure. Coppola: Mr. Hanosh, do you have anything else to add? Hanosh: None at this time, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Any questions for the Inspection Department? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 44 May 24, 2016 Neville: None. Coppola: Okay. I'm sorry. Teodecki: Oh, no problem at all. And if I may, make the visuals a little easier. You'll see, or almost see the ground sign down at the bottom left in the top block left corner. Currently the ground sign is within the square footage allowed by the City. The differences between this and other signs in the city, as I've shown some comparisons to there, is the fact that A, there are multiple tenants -- I believe ten tenants available in what is a 5x8 sign with a base taking away approximately 18 inches, which makes it about a little less than 40 square feet, which brings it to about 3 square feet -- 3 and a half square feet per tenant. And some of the pictures that I have shown kind of show the drive-by. And the first thing I would bring up is that safety of the sign, being that is you stop right in front of that sign, you still cannot read the tenants at that square footage and at that height. So if you're going 45 miles an hour past that sign, you have about two seconds to read or find a tenant. There is no address base, as far as, address placards on the building, or most any of the centers that help you along the way down Middlebelt to find the sign. So you're really looking for tenant logos and or tenant spaces. So the fact that the sign is so small creates a large safety hazard, as far as people slamming on their brakes trying to see what's there and not being able not being able to see it. So having to turn around and basically in any driveway that comes up after it. So that's one first thing I came across, and the fact that it's very hard to find, just the sign itself. Because it is just very small, and Middlebelt does go, and it is a four lane highway with a turn lane. So it is very hard to see. So safety is my first thing. What it sets it apart again, is the setback. And in the package I believe you'll see some footage in the setback, as far as the store is set back from the road. Most of the setbacks from the road are hundred -- hundred fifty feet -- you can actually read their channel letter sign from the road. So that for most of the other examples going down Middlebelt road, and other roads in fact. So this one has a rather big hardship than the fact that you cannot read anything but one store's row, which is on the side of his building closet to the road. So it's a gym, you can find the gym. You cannot find the other tenants. You cannot even see the other tenants driving by, unless you stop in the middle of the road and really look, and it's still pretty much not that easy to see, as far as that goes. So -- you know -- besides -- you know -- just the help of people actually helping to safely get into the premises and the fact the businesses would like to be seen. They've been there for a long time and I believe they brought this up six year ago, or something, hoping that the -- hoping for a larger sign, and I believe that they didn't get it, and I believe it looks like their back again hoping that they would get a little compassion and try to get a larger sign. So A, they can increase their business, but most of it's because of the safety. Most of it is because of the fact that nobody can find their businesses. So it's not even a matter of monetary, as much as it's a matter of just basic City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 44 May 24, 2016 being able to find their businesses. And I gave some examples of some other signs. I wasn't aware of the exact history on whether they were grandfathered in, but a lot of them looked a heck of a lot newer than when the ordinance was redone. So I'm thinking they either got a zoning variance for those larger signs, and or they were grandfathered in. I'm not quite sure about that. But I do know that the multiple amount of tenants in there on the sign is like ten. So they would really be behooved to have a larger sign for safety, alone, and of course to represent them so they can actually run a business in Livonia. And besides that, I would have to say that most of it has to do with -- you know -- just the hardships incurred by the businesses and by the people that go by that can't find the businesses. It's frustrating to keep driving back and turn around. I did that to try to find this when I was surveying the sign to take pictures. So it is a very, very small sign for what it's needed to be. Coppola: Okay -- Komer: I'd like to add something to that. Coppola: Okay. Komer: I signed the petition. My name is Richard Komer, K -o -m -e -r, from the Farbman Group. We're a large property management company. We've been representing this landlord owner for a good ten years. We have three tenants that are definitely affected by this large four -hundred -foot setback. And they are here tonight. They did sign letters. There's Great Lakes Family Dental, there's G & D Accounting, and there is the Domino's store -- pizza store. They're here in case you want to question them you about the problem with visibility when traveling down Middlebelt. I think Dan did a good job in pointing out what the hardship is here. And it goes beyond economics. Yes, economics is important. If you don't have economics, you can't run a business, and you can't pay your taxes. Aside from that, we have a very practical problem here that we need the assistance of this board. And I think being an old developer attorney, what have you, myself, as you can tell by looking at me, I've been around the block more than a few times on zoning cases, and what have you. I think we have a very strong and valid case here for some relief, and we would leave with you that you take notice of our situation. And these tenants came, especially to add to that because they're directly affected. Thank you. Coppola: Couple of -- couple of questions. How many units do you have for rent in that facility? I counted twelve on your --- on your layout. Komer: We have --yeah we've got --one, two, three, four-- yeah like five vacant spaces. Coppola: And six occupied -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 44 May 24, 2016 Komer: Yeah -- Coppola: -- seven occupied? Komer: -- right. Coppola: Okay. So the sign had eleven spots? Komer: Yeah. Coppola: So the twelfth person is out of luck, huh? Teodecki: If I may add. If you'll see some of those spots -- Coppola: That's a good problem to have. Teodecki: Well, some of those spots are actually sub -divided from the whole panel, and so they would have to be sub -divided further to actually -- you know -- to get every tenant Kamer: The tenants today that are looking to lease -- that are looking for visibility on their stores -- they just can't depend on the internet and other forms of advertisement. The signage is still, for these type of tenants, very important. This has been brought up to us from a leasing point that this is a deficiency for this development. Coppola: Okay. So I noted up and down the road there's probably -- in that one -mile stretch between Five and Schoolcraft -- one, two, three, four, five -- at least seven signs on pedestals. Fisher: Do you mean Five and Six? Coppola: 1 mean Five and Six. I'm sorry. Five and Six. So there seems to be a lot of them, but there was one right across the street from you guys. Just to the north. How tall is -- is that one? Teodecki: About 20 -- looks to be about a 12 to 14 foot under clearance with about -- I'm going to say about 22 feet high -- 24 -- just guessing. Coppola: And then the one up the street, the dental one. How tall would you believe that one to be? Teodecki: A little over 25 -- 25 to 30. Komer: Those are a lot smaller centers too. There setback is much less than -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 44 May 24, 2016 Teodecki: You can see by the tenant panels that there's only multiple tenant panels per -- per tenant in those. So they have probably about five times as much square footage - six times maybe as much as these guys do. ►C 1110 7/1/41013 Coppola: Yes. Neville: May I speak? Coppola: Absolutely. Neville: One thing I was kind of curious about, but in comparison with your existing monument sign versus the proposed sign that you have, are the spaces there for the tenants to advertise their businesses larger on the existing sign versus the proposed new sign? Teodecki: Yes, they are. The percentage is not quite based on what we have. It's not a final say yet. So it's kind of a fight between tenants on who gets what sizes, and how it all works out and how we design the sign in final. But that is pretty close to what it is, and yes they are larger. Neville: Okay. Because the existing -- Teodecki: Because some of them are subdivided as well. So a portion of them, about 30 percent of them are subdivided between how many panels are on there. The current sign, if you look at the one I handed you, so yes each one going across is approximately 50 percent smaller on the ones that are subdivided. Neville: Is that fair to the tenants? Teodecki: We are not over reaching. So yes, we would rather you double the square footage allowed for what we would be allowed. We would be much happier. Neville: My thought is perhaps on the Great Lakes Dental -- now I understand that's the owner as well as tenant for a business in there. Maybe there can be some modification for that. Teodecki: I'm sure there will be, but it's a matter of square footage and how the landlord and the tenants work. Komer: They're not the owner, by the way. They're a tenant. They're a large tenant, but they are not the owner of the property. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 44 May 24, 2016 Neville. For some reason I thought that the doctors signed the petition as the property owner. Komer: He happens to be a dentist, but he's -- Teodecki: Different dentist. Komer: -- different. He's not associated with Great Lakes Dental at all. Doesn't really practice anymore. He's more of a real estate investor. Neville: All right. Thank you. Schepis: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: So when you have fewer than -- when you're less than fully occupied, some of these signs are going to be blank? Some of those squares are going to be just plain white? Teodecki: They'll probably say "For Lease" in a perfect world, depending on your ordinance for that. I mean sometimes we use "For Lease" signs --you know --put a decal in those to let them know they are available for lease. But yes, they would probably be emptied until they're vacant, unless they went for a long time and the landlord decided to double use, but chances are they would stay vacant -- with the larger sign they would fill in faster. Schepis: Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about what the sign is going to look like? I think we have a picture that gives the dimensions, but there's not a whole lot of detail about -- Teodecki: I mean, if you look at Advanced Dental -- that's a pretty average, approximately ten -inch width, aluminum cabinet, 063 build -- florescent build -- on off switches -- retainers -- usually about one two -inches. You know -- subdivide through there with lights and bulbs mounted inside. Schepis: So you're saying it's going to be the same basic design as this? Teodecki: It will be similar in what you see on the page, but if you wanted to see what the actual fabrication look would be, that's similar to an average sign. So it had hinged faces. It would be a nice looking new sign. Schepis: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 44 May 24, 2016 Teodecki: Sure. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Yes, Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Looking at your current -- do you have plans to re -landscape to improve the visibility of the new sign? Teodecki: We certainly do. Baringhaus: Okay. Also, about the proposed signs here, can you give me some specifications on them? What type of light will they have? Teodecki: Internally fluorescent will give it the best illumination. So it would be HO high output fluorescent lamps. Baringhaus: Okay. And then will both sides be illuminated? Teodecki: Both sides are illuminated, correct. Baringhaus: Both the ground sign and the -- Teodecki: It would be perpendicular to the road. Baringhaus: Oaky. Teodecki: So both sides would be illuminated coming from both ways. Baringhaus: Will both sides be on a timer? Teodecki: It will probably have either a timer and or a photocell for light and dark. One or the other. Baringhaus: You're not sure at this point? Teodecki: Depends on the landlord's preference. Komer: We usually go photocells. Baringhaus: Photocells? Kamer: Yeah. Teodecki: Most cases. Baringhaus: So then the sign will be on all night? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 44 May 24, 2016 Teodecki: Yes. Komer: Unless this board feels otherwise. We can always -- you know -- you can always make that a condition. We don't have to run it all night, if it's objectionable. Teodecki: I think it can be on all night. Baringhaus: My preference would be a timer -- Korner: A timer? Baringhaus: -- I'll leave that to the Board. Thank you. Klisz: Mr. Chairman. Coppola Sir. Klisz: Is the current sign lit? Teodecki: I believe it is. Komer: Yes, it is. Klisz: Thanks. Neville: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Neville. Neville: With the regards to the current sign, what is the time frame with regards to the illumination? Is that on a timer? Is it all night long? Teodecki: I believe it's a photocell. So when the sun goes down a little past dusk it goes on. Neville: Okay. And it stays on throughout the course of -- Teodecki: Until dawn. A little bit past dawn it would go on -- or off. Neville: All right. And how late is the latest business open in that center. Do you know? Teodecki: One of them is a gym. So I would probably say nine-ish. You can actually -- Tomer: Domino's is here. Teodecki: We ask her that. Oh, I'm sorry. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 44 May 24, 2016 Kamer: She stays open -- Prud'homme: So the Domino's is open until midnight, Sunday through Thursday, and 1:00 a.m. -- Coppola You'll need to -- you'll need to approach the podium and give your name and address, if you would please. Thank you. Prud'homme: My name is Leslie Prud'homme, and -- Niemczewski: Could you spell the last name? Prud'homme: Spell Leslie? L -e -s -- Niemczewski: Your last name. Prud'homme: Oh, last name. P-r--u-d-'-h-o-m-m-e. Coppola: And your address, please. Prud'homme: Business address. Coppola: That's fine. Prud'homme: Okay. 16136 Middlebelt Road. Neville: And then you were telling us with regards the illumination -- or how late your business is open. Prud'homme: Yes. We're open until midnight, Sunday through Thursday, and 1:00 a.m., Friday and Saturday. Neville: Okay. Thank you. Coppola: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: Are you done? Neville: I'm done. Schepis: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: So this may be going back a little -ways, it is going back a little -ways, to 2001. But the last time you were here, I think the proposed height was ten feet. In the six square City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 44 May 24, 2016 footage is sixty feet. So it's going down a little bit in square footage, but up a significant amount in height. Can you tell us why? Teodecki: Square footage mostly. Just basically -- I wasn't as privy to the original submission. I learned about that later. And basically we were just trying to come with a comfortable height that's not too high, but also would fit in an extra square footage without having to go too wide. Come up with the best way to divide it, and it's a pylon sign instead of a monument sign. So under clearance -- I'm trying to get as much under clearance as possible for better visibility. Schepis: Okay. So there's no relationship between this old submission and your new one? Teodecki: Not really. No. Schepis: Okay. Coppola: Do you have questions? Any more questions? Anyone from the audience like to make a statement? if you would like to approach the podium, and you could give us your name and address, and make your statement. Komer: Yeah. The tenants should really speak out here. That's what we came here for. Lavier: Greg Lavier, L -a -v -i -e -r, G&D Accounting, 16180 Middlebelt, in the plaza. On a couple of -- three occasions I've actually had a chance to talk to Dennis -- Dennis Wright. He said he'd like to see a little bit more loosening of the restrictions, as well, because he brings up the fact that he's aware of the signage on the plaza -- you just don't have time to read it. It's just -- like he's bringing up, it's a safety factor. You just don't have time to see the signage to see who's in there. And again, I'm set at the back of the plaza I get no visibility at all from the road. So I much would like to see an increase in the signage. These people just know that I'm back there. Komer: Thanks. Delora, she's from Great Lakes Dental. Krogel: Delors Krogel, K -r -o -g --e-1, 16160 Middlebelt, Livonia. So I represent Great Lakes Family Dental, and up and down Middlebelt there are, right close to us, five other dental offices. We're in the far corner of the -- far corner of the L of this complex, and this is a picture from the parking lot. Not even the road. I don't know if you can see that -- you can't even see us. And I can't tell you how many times our patients end up going to this place, which is right across the street from us, instead of our office. It's an ongoing issue, and then our patients are late because they can't find us. So I really thing we need a bigger sign. We would all appreciate it very much so. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 44 May 24, 2016 Komer: Thanks. We've got Leslie from Domino's. Prud'homme: The Dom -- well I don't have to repeat my name, right? Okay. The Domino's has been in that location for longer than I've owned it, which has been since 2008. 1 think it's been there for over ten years. And to my dismay, when I took over, it was a regular occurrence that people would come in and say, I didn't know there was a Domino's here. I've lived here all my life. So and it still happens. I asked my general manager yesterday, does that stili happen? Yes, it happens multiple times a week. One other thing occurs, especially at night, is that people who are trying to come and pick up pizza from us, will not see us. Will then call as they're driving up and down Middlebelt trying to find us. Which means, of course, they're driving, and calling, and looking, and guess I would add that whole behavior to the safety issue, as well. Komer: Thank you. I just want to say that, first of all, we appreciate the time you've spent on this. If there are some conditions on this -- if there are some conditions, that would make it more palatable, we're certainly open to consider those and probably comply with them. And we're just looking to improve. It's not that we want to spend another fifteen to twenty thousand dollars in more signs, even though they do great work, it's just that we need to protect our tenants here, and we've got a hardship case that we think that we've laid out the basis for so. The reason I didn't stand up is I'm ten years post retirement and I'm a tired guy working seventy hours a week so you have to excuse me. Coppola: Are there any -- are there any letters? Baringhaus: Yeah, but I do have one question, Mr. Chairman, before we get to the letters. It's for the Inspection Department. When a signs placed on a time, what's the appropriate time period that the sign should be illuminated after the business closes? Hanosh: I think you're about right. I believe that's going to be up to the Board that can make that decision. We don't have any parameters when it comes to the ordinances. Baringhaus: Okay. There's no set -- Fisher: And -- yeah -- it all depends on the business. Some people are -- their signs go off at sun down. Some go on an hour past closing. It depends on -- there isn't a particular or appropriate time. It's a case by case kind of thing. Baringhaus: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, we have four letters. First letter is an approval from Laurie Ally, 16112 Middlebelt, (letter read). Second letter, looks like it's the same letter. Yes, it is. I'm sorry, it's the same letter. Okay, next letter is an objection form Todd Angler, 16311 Middlebelt, (letter read). I believe this was a duplicate letter. So I believe we actually have two letters. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 44 May 24, 2016 Coppola: Just the two letters? Baringhaus: Yes. Coppola: Okay. All right. Will the Petitioner like to make a final statement? Teodecki: I'd like to maybe address that possible second letter because there are no other neighbors affected by the change of sign for this actual -- of the -- you know -- the physicality of the sign will not interfere with anyone. It will just increase the safety, as far as that goes. The sign itself is rather dated. It's rather worn. It will increase the beautification of driving Livonia -- driving down Middlebelt in Livonia. And it will increase the tax base by helping these people fill up these empty units, and also, to not drive around talking on their phone, which we wish we could abolish entirely. So there are hardships abound and we really respect your time here, and we would like to see a positive change on Middlebelt. Coppola: Okay. I'm going to close this portion of the case. The Board will make its decision. First, I'd like to get comments from Board members, starting with Mr. Neville. Neville: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I actually believe that the Petitioner has shown the uniqueness requirement -- or situation with respect to this plaza. I think that in relationship to some of the other signs in that area, the current sign is much smaller. It's a visibility problem. I think that a need has been proven that would warrant a change to the -- from the current sign to the proposed sign. I might just suggest to not exceed 12 foot 6 inches in height, or 8 feet in width, and a timer to -- from dusk until 1:30 in the morning. I think that would accommodate Domino's on the weekend. Coppola: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: I agree with Mr. Neville. I think that you've demonstrated a hardship. This is set far back. This is kind of a small sign. I think it's partly obstructed by some landscaping, which doesn't help the situation. I'd like to see a little bit more specifics about what the sign is going to look like. I think maybe we can deal with that if you were going to confirm for us that it's going to be consistent with this other sign that you provided of. That you described as far as color and -- you know -- sort of the same general materials. Teodecki: I will make sure it's attractive and not chartreuse green or anything else. It will slightly colorful because the tenants, as far as their logos will be on their somewhat. Kind of like the other ones. I can't really stop that. But, Farbman Group has shown great taste in choosing all their signage. So I have no doubt that it -- I guarantee that it will be a very nice looking sign. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 44 May 24, 2016 Schepis: Well, with that said, I would support this. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Thank you. I agree. I think you've more than demonstrated the uniqueness for this request. Again, due to the volume of traffic on Middlebelt. Not only the setback of the businesses within the complex itself. It limits visibility and produces not only a hardship for the businesses, but for the customers as well. They are trying to located your businesses for the first time, as well. I would like to see a timer on the sign, and I agree with the recommendation that the timer allow the signs be illuminated until 1:30 in the morning. So based on that, I would be in support of a variance. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I also agree. As I started to read the materials, I happen to be coming down Middlebelt. So I thought, oh good -- I -- I know the plaza, but I'm going to look myself -- drove by and said that signs a little small for that number of tenants. And then quickly looked to see what other signs were in the area, and I think that the other signs are bigger. So therefore, making this sign in line -- it's not out of line with the rest of the signs on that road in that area. I guess I'd also check to see -- I don't think anybody's open later than one o'clock. Would that be fair to say? That that Domino's is the longest running -- Komer: Right. Klisz: -- then I'd also agree with having a timer. Doesn't seem like there needs to be any lit up sign going after 1:30, so I would be in support as well. Coppola: I will too be in support. I'm very familiar with that -- that strip mall having my daughter danced across the street for years, and years, and years, and always was somewhat surprised that -- that the signage was so small. It -- visibly -- it's far hard to see what's in there. I do agree there. And having better signage is definitely needed, and I think it would also probably help fill that -- that -- that strip mall, which 1 think would be great. I'd like to see all the strip malls in Livonia be full. I think Mr. Neville's suggestion that we cap the height at 12 feet, I think makes sense. I don't know -- you know -- cap it at 12 feet and 8400t width I'm good with that. The timer that Mr. Baringhaus suggested, 1:30, 1 think would be something acceptable to me. The only other request that I have -- I'm not sure if this is something we put in as a condition or not, but if you can put a "For Lease" sign in the empty ones. One would probably be sufficient, not in each spot. So it looks okay. Teodecki: Yeah. Your ordinance is pretty good. We'll probably still put in a wood sign or something. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 44 May 24, 2016 Coppola: Okay. And then you are removing the old sign, and you're putting the new sign in where the old sign is? Teodecki: Correct. It may --- yes. Same approximate area. It may actually go a couple feet from the landscaping because in there because the age of the sign. If it's a stipulation where you want to keep it right where it is, I'm willing. Coppola: Okay. Hanosh: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Yes, sir. Hanosh: From the Inspection Department, i would just want to still make sure we have at least a ten -foot setback from the right of way. Coppola: I think that's where the current sign is. Hanosh: Is the current sign ten -feet setback? Teodecki: I believe it is. I'd have to check with the right of way on the actual sight plans. Coppola: My preference would be for you to replace the existing sign and put the new sign in where the existing sign is. All your utilities are running there anyway. Teodecki: Yeah -- no -- so would we. Coppola: Okay. Do I have a -- someone wants to make a -- Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Yes. Baringhaus: Thank you. Upon Motion by Baringhaus and supported by Schepis , it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-04-30: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Livonia Center, LLC, 5640 W. Maple, Ste. 303, West Bloomfield, MI 48322, seeking to remove the current business center ground sign and replace it with a new ground sign, resulting in excess sign height and area. Ground Sign Height: Allowed: 8.0 ft. Ground Sign Area: Allowed: 40 sq. ft. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 44 May 24, 2016 Proposed: 12.4 ft. Proposed: 57 sq. ft. Excess: 4.4 ft. Excess: 17 sq. ft. As approved by the Board: Ground Sign Height: Allowed: 8.0 ft. Proposed: 12.0 ft. Excess: 4.0 ft. The property is located on the east side of Middlebelt (16184), between Terrence and Sunnydale, Lot. No. 050-01-0336-002, C-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H(b),'l, "Sign Regulations in C- 1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts," be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met due to the configuration of the existing property, and the setback of the current businesses from Middlebelt Road. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner due to the reduced visibility for traffic and customers coming into the area of those businesses. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance due to the number of similar signs in the area that have been documented, and no serious objection from the neighboring businesses. 4. The Board received one letter of approval and one objection letter from neighboring property owners. 5. The property is classified as "general commercial" in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That a timer be installed on the sign so the sign will illuminate no later than 1:30 a.m. 2. That the height of the sign be capped at 12 feet. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 44 May 24, 2016 3. That when a business is for lease that only one "For Lease" sign be placed in the signage itself. 4. That the sign be placed in the same area where the existing sign is located now. 5. That a 10 -foot setback from the right of way be maintained. 6. That it be built as presented. ROLL CALL VOTE AYES: Klisz, Schepis, Coppola, Baringhaus, Neville NAYS: None ABSENT: Henzi, Pastor Coppola: Motion passes with the following conditions, a timer put on to turn of the sign - illumination of the sign at 1:30 a.m. Have a 12 -foot height cap. Only one "For Lease" panel in the sign. The sign should be placed where the old sign would be removed. Ten - foot setback should be maintained, and should be built as presented. You're all set to go. Thank you very much. Good luck. Teodecki: Thank you very much. Komer: Thank you. Appreciate it. Coppola: Thanks for supporting Livonia. Teodecki: Have a great day. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 44 May 24, 2016 APPEAL CASE NO. 2016.05-37: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Scott and Barb Hesskamp, 37010 Joy, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to remove the existing detached garage and accessory building and construct a detached garage, resulting in excess area, overall height and excess wall height. Also, the detached garage will be in the side yard which is not allowed. Detached garages must be in the rear yard. Detached Garage Area: Garage Height: Wall Height: Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Allowed: 16 ft. Allowed: 10 ft. Proposed: 1200 sq. ft. Proposed: 26 ft. Proposed: 15 ft. Excess: 480 sq. ft. Excess: 10 ft. Excess: 5 ft. The property is located on the north side of Joy (37010), between Newburgh and Crown, Lot. No. 126-01-0749-006, RUQ' Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 2.10(5) "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms; Garage Private," and Section 18.24, "Residential Accessory Building." Coppola: Good evening. Your name and address, please. S. Hesskamp: Scott Hesskamp, 37010 Joy Road. Coppola: Thank you. Does the Inspection Department have any comments? Hanosh: None at this time, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Any questions for the Inspection Department. Neville: None at this time. Coppola: Good. Please proceed. Tell me about your project and why you need it. S. Hesskamp: Well, we're seeking a variance for a larger garage. The one we have was built in 1947, and it's in very poor shape even though I have saved it up until this point. The floor is crumbling and it needs replacement. The larger size -- I've stored some things outside that I no longer want there. I'm going to be accepting some canoes that my grandfather made and I need to store those inside. Amongst motorcycles, and RV, and kayaks, things of that nature. And we've worked very hard to beautify our yard over the years, and this is sort of the final phase to finish that off. Coppola: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner? Neville: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Neville. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 44 May 24, 2016 Neville: Going back to the -- one of the last things you said. You said you're going to accept some canoes from your grandfather? S. Hesskamp: Yes. Neville: Are those his own personal property or what's the -- S. Hesskamp: No. He made them. Neville: And then what is your intent to do with them? S. Hesskamp: Well, eventually pass them to my sons. Neville: Okay. You intend to transact or conduct a business out of this garage? S. Hesskamp: No. No. Neville: Same thing -- your paperwork suggested that you're going to make furniture on the second floor? S. Hesskamp: Well, we do a lot of yard, and we make benches and stuff in the yard, and that's sort of part of the process. We've done a lot of things for inside the home. ,lust for our home. Neville: Okay. Again, not for, sale to anybody, or no business purposes? S. Hesskamp: No. No. Neville: And then what type of electrical service do you plan to -- to run? S. Hesskamp: Really, I just need the standard 110. Neville: Okay. Any other utilities that you plan to feed into the garage? S. Hesskamp: No. Neville: Thank you. Schepis: Mr. Chairman. Question for the Inspection Department. Attached garages are not allowed in side yards. With the existing -- Hanosh: Detached. Schepis: I'm sorry, detached garages. The existing garage is there too. Is that just because it's so old? City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 44 May 24, 2016 Hanosh: All garages -- all detached garages -- actually per our ordinance always -- actually in the rear yard only, not in side yard. This was built probably before the ordinance. Let's assume that's the case. Schepis: I thought so too. I just want to -- Hanosh: The existing garage -- I mean -- it's still almost behind the house line. They're actually bringing it forward more that than the back, and at 40 feet compared to their existing size. Schepis: So if it were moved back a little bit, it would be in the rear yard? S. Hesskamp: I'm a little bit limited -- excuse me -- by a power line that is behind the existing garage. I can -- this will -- I can go back nine feet, I estimate. And then we still will not be passing the -- the frontage of the house. Schepis: You'd still be in -- S. Hesskamp: Correct. Schepis: Okay. S. Hesskamp: And then, yes it was -- everything there was built in '37 so. Schepis: Okay. Is this -- S. Hesskamp: That's the style we would like to build, and then I can show you a picture of our house -- that we think it would go very well along with. Hanosh: If I may, Mr. Chair. The picture that is representing here is approximately showing almost 8 to 9 -foot sidewall. They're proposing a 15 -foot sidewall height. If you look at the side service door, you're talking about almost doubling the side walls in height. This is not representing a 26 -foot height garage. Your sidewall will actually almost come out -- if that's 7 -foot -- almost to the front first peak of the gambrel roof right here. This would all be sidewall up to here. Just so you guys know, that's one -- in our ordinances - - the 10 -foot on the side wall. You're probably showing -- I would say 8 feet to 9 -foot sidewall if possible. Coppola: Could you -- could you have a -- I guess a 26 -foot height garage with 10 -foot sidewalls and just a have a steeper --- you'd lose some space upstairs basically. Hanosh: Yeah, and our ordinance the maximum height is 16 feet on height. Coppola: Yeah. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 44 May 24, 2016 S. Hesskamp: I think the gambrel will hide some of the height of the walls as it comes down like it does on our house. Coppola: So how tall with the second floor ceiling would be? S. Hesskamp: Eight feet, but we might be able to, in the design, get it down to seven. That's just how the design came out -- was it 26 -foot -- Coppola: So that directly would move it 26 down to 25 if you went down a foot? S. Hesskamp: Yeah. I don't know if it's possible, but we'd have to try to do that with Menard's or something like that for the design. Coppola: This is -- this is kind of like a buy off the shelf type of building -- S. Hesskamp: It's not a pole barn. It's all stick built -- 2x6, but Menard's designs them and delivers everything, and then I have a contractor to build it. Schepis: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: Is there a similar design that is maybe a little bit smaller that would still suit your needs? S. Hesskamp: Along with the house and things like we really sort of fell in love with this design. It's what we've always wanted, and there are other similar designs right along Joy Road and Ann Arbor Trail. Schepis: So there or there are not similar designs that are a little bit smaller that would suit your need? S. Hesskamp: Well, there's one on our street that's actually larger, and the other two are on Ann Arbor Trail are the same size. Schepis: Okay. Coppola: Who owns the vacant land next to the big lot? Okay. Is there plans to do something with that lot? I'll catch you up here in a minute. So my question is, so you got a large -- kind of a large building -- or whatever we agree to be built -- I understand the smaller existing ones only five feet from the property, but when you get such a big structure, is five feet appropriate? Would it be possible to move it a little bit further from the property line? Maybe another five feet? Make it like ten -foot from the property line. S. Hesskamp: I think that's an existing City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 44 May 24, 2016 Coppola: I understand it existing, but the building's also -- S. Hesskamp: -- I think that's an existing ord -- or the -- the zoning this is you can be five feet. I mean if I had to move it a foot or two over, would be ok. Coppola: Yeah. If you had to build the building within the existing ordinance, it wouldn't be an issue. S. Hesskamp: Yeah, to give it six or seven feet, yeah I could do that. Coppola: What type of materials will the finishing be? The roof and the siding? S. Hesskamp: The roof, we were undecided. We're thinking either shingles or -- or up and coming steel roofs. We're undecided on that. The siding would be a vinyl siding to match the house. Coppola: Is vinyl allowed -- is -- is -- not vinyl -- is metal roofs allowed? Hanosh: Yes, they are with a UL listing, they're allowed. S. Hesskamp: And they have come down in price a lot as well. So it makes it nice. Klisz: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: This also the drawing that shows that the -- there's an existing shed to the north that was built in 1945, and that's going to be removed? S. Hesskamp: Correct. Klisz: That would part of the plan with new garage, removal of garage, and remove shed? S. Hesskamp: Yes. Klisz: Thank you. Neville: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Neville. Neville: You indicated that you believe that there is a larger garage on your street, or on your block? S. Hesskamp: A little bit, but it was built I think before the city was -- you know -- probably back in the `40s or something. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 44 May 24, 2016 Neville: Do you know what the address is? S. Hesskamp: No, I don't. Neville: Is it to the east of your home? S. Hesskamp: Yeah, probably to the east. He's on a very large lot -- two acres, I think. We're on just over an acre. Neville: And then -- so Menard's is able to design the structure and then provide the materials. You haven't actually purchased the materials of yet? Waiting to see what happens here? S. Hesskamp: Yeah. See what happens, and then it's a three-week window for them -- so. Neville: Thank you. And so presuming that if you were to get an approval with some conditions, you would go back to Menard's let them know and then they -- whether it's to add or they can try and tweak the plan to accomplish what -- S. Hesskamp: Yes. Neville: Okay. Thank you. Coppola: Any questions? Baringhaus: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Yeah, the -- according to our ordinance -- calls for 720 square of area for the garage. That wouldn't be sufficient for your storage requirements? You're quite a bit above -- S. Hesskamp: Yeah. Is that about what we have now, 22x20? Fisher: It's like 440. S. Hesskamp: Yeah. It's very small. I mean for the things I'd like to put in there -- RV number one, I'd like to keep that inside and keep it out of the weather. Some of these things are pretty large investments, and I'd like to keep them inside. Baringhaus: So the items you want to put in there is an RV -- you mentioned some canoes, and what other items? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 44 May 24, 2016 S. Hesskamp: .lust like dirt bikes --just things of that nature -- bicycles of course. Coppola: So where do you put your cars? S. Hesskamp: In the driveway. Coppola: So much for a garage. S. Hesskamp: Yeah. Hanosh: So the garage would have a large single door. S. Hesskamp: Correct. Hanosh: Overhead door. S. Hesskamp: Yes. Hanosh: And based on this picture, you would also have an access to it? S. Hesskamp: Yes. Hanosh: Exterior lighting? S. Hesskamp: Maybe one out front. Just something esthetically -- Hanosh: Okay. And then -- Mr. Baringhaus, alluded to a small -- slightly smaller foot print -- like a thousand feet instead of twelve hundred feet, wouldn't suffice for your needs? S. Hesskamp: 1'd really like to have the 12, but -- Hanosh: How long's your RV? S. Hesskamp: This one is 28 feet. Hanosh: And I'm sorry, it's a fifth wheel? S. Hesskamp: Yes, it is. Hanosh: So you're going to have a larger taller door to get it in? S. Hesskamp: Correct, Yes. Hanosh: So it would be more than your standard garage door? S. Hesskamp: Yes. Hanosh: Almost like a truly an overhead door? City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 44 May 24, 2016 S. Hesskamp: Yeah. Hanosh: What style would that door be? More of a garage door style, or are you talking about a warehouse style door? S. Hesskamp: Well, no. More of a garage style door, but it wouldn't be out of the question to even paint it to look like a barn door -- you know -- whatever would look nice. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman, question for the Inspection Department. Might be obvious, but I'll ask it anyways. While the height of 15 feet, that would be from the base to the roof line? Hanosh: I would say -- Coppola: Where do you measure? Baringhaus: What are your measuring points? Hanosh: 1 would say from the first break, from the gambrel roof. That's about approximately 15 feet. So this would all be solid wall. So this -- the door's here -- this is a service door approximately 82 inches. So you almost got a 7 -foot door -- that's an 80 - foot wall. There asking almost double that. So the wall I'm guessing comes somewhere up here. This would be solid wall, and then this door -- at 13 feet --- this is a 7 -foot door, it's almost double in height. So the overhead door will be double in height. I don't know if it would be wider. What's the width of the door? This showing probably -- maybe -- this is maybe 15 -- S. Hesskamp: We could go 10 to 12 feet. Hanosh: Yeah. So everything would basically be on point. Baringhaus: Okay. So then it's from the first peak on the -- the first break. Hanosh: Yeah. Not the ridge, but the first break. Baringhaus: Okay. Thank you. Hanosh: The first ridge, I would say. Fisher: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Yes, Mr. Fisher. Fisher: How tall is your house? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 44 May 24, 2016 S. Hesskamp: Twenty-six feet. We have two stories, and the basement comes out about two feet -- two and a half feet. Coppola: Any other questions? All right. Is there anybody -- I'm going to close this portion -- is there anybody in the audience who would like to speak for against this petition? Paciero: Frank Paciero. I live at 11810 Roselinda, Livonia. I own the property that's right next door to Scott. I'm on the east side of his house. I guess I object to his garage going up because I'm going to be looking at it. He does have an old garage. He has plenty of property in the back. He could put his garage in the rear instead of the side yard. He's going to be five feet away from my lot line. And I'm not sure where it's placed. Am I looking at the back of the garage, or the side of the garage? S. Hesskamp: Side. Paciero: So the doors are going to be facing your house? S. Hesskamp: No. The doors facing -- Paciero: Side -- the doors are facing the front. S. Hesskamp: The street. Like they do now. Paciero: I guess I'm not against him putting up a garage, but not that size. Coppola: Your property is vacant right now? Paciero: Yes. Coppola: What are your plans for that property? Paciero: To eventually build and live there. Coppola: Okay. How wide is the frontage of this property? Paciero: I got about 150 -- 300 deep. Coppola: Wide? Not deep, wide. Paciero: One -fifty wide. Coppola: Okay. Schepis: Mr. Chairman. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 44 May 24, 2016 Coppola: Schepis. Schepis: Do you have a timeline for when you expect to build and move onto that land? Paciero: Money. Schepis: Okay. Paciero: And then the crunch here, and everything went to hell so I'm behind. Schepis: Have you two discussed this garage at all? S. Hesskamp: No. Paciero: No. Schepis: No. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Do you have any other questions? Thank you very much. Is there anyone else? Correspondence, please. Baringhaus: Yes. We have one letter of approval from Debra and Larry DiCicco (letter read). Coppola: Okay. Do guys have any -- any final words before we discuss? S. Hesskamp: No. Coppola: Okay. I'll close this portion of -- public portion of the case and we'll take comments from the Board starting with Mr. Schepis. Schepis: Well, I think that you do have for a variance. I think that the garage you have now, based on what you described of what you're going to put in it, is too small. I also think there's room for a pretty decent variance here given the size of your lot, and also the fact that it backs up to Churchill. It wouldn't be a view of many neighbors as it might in something like a subdivision. But I'm a little uncomfortable trying to eyeball this and say well --- you know the door is going to go here, and the roof is going to come to here. I think for something of this size, speaking only for myself, I'd like to see something that's a little bit more precise, as far as what it's going to look like and where it's going to be. And I also think that some of these excesses are a lot, and I think there's maybe a little bit of room to decrease them a little bit. And maybe come to an understanding with your neighbor about the location of it. So I would support a variance, but I would like a little bit more information before that. Those are my comments. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 44 May 24, 2016 Baringhaus: Current ordinance allows for 660 feet for a garage because of the size of your property, that's increased to 720 square feet. You're requesting 1200 square feet. So I have some concerns about the size of the building relative to the property and its intended use as well. The other item is I agree with Mr. Schepis. I'd like to see more details on the sketch itself, and also a more accurate rendering of the actual photo of the building. For instance, going back to your plan, like where is the driveway for the garage -- details like that. I'd like to see a more accurate detail. A little bit more accurate description on the plan. So I agree with Mr. Schepis. I'd like to see the request tabled, and have you come back with a more detailed plan. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I was thinking the same thing. It's hard to take a picture and go well it's going to be this, but it's going to be doubled the height here and the garage door is going to be doubled. It's just hard to get a handle on it. We're looking at one thing, but that's not what's going to be built. So that's was exactly the thoughts I was having is -- is to go back to Menard's, or where ever, have them come up with a design drawing to show us what it really will look like under the proposal, and then maybe also an alternative proposal. Maybe something along the thousand square foot mark to see -- it may not be exactly what you're looking for, but it could also give us something else to consider. Those are my ideas. Coppola: Mr. Neville. Neville: I agree with my colleague's comments. I think that we need more detail. I'd like to see this matter tabled. Maybe Menard's can prepare -- not a blue print, but a detailed drawing showing materials and a layout. I have concerns about the proposed 26 -foot height of the structure. I would be more comfortable in the range of the 20 to 25 -foot height max. I know it's only a foot, but I think it might be important, especially in respect to your potential neighbor. I'd like to see the footprint moved back probably 8 feet or so. You've indicated you've got about 9 -foot area to work with between the current structure and the utility lines. So I think tabling it to bring back more information consistent with what we've talked about would be -- would be an appropriate measure, at least at this point in time. Coppola: Yeah. 1 agree with my colleagues. I do believe you've given a good case for - - for some -- some level of variance, and a reasonably large variance. You've got a big piece of property. It's really nice. You've got a lot of space there. I think getting a little more there -- because you're asking for something so large, and so much over the normal zoning, that I think a little more detail would make us more comfortable knowing what was being put in there. I think also asking for -- something too large on the side house, I've City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 44 May 24, 2016 got a little bit of an issue with. I understand you're used to having a garage there and that's a good spot for it, but generally what we do allow for a variance for something as large as this belongs in the backyard. I understand you've got issues with electrical lines, and unfortunately you didn't show it on the drawings. S. Hesskamp: They're perfectly in the wrong spot. Coppola: So I don't know how it impacts your ability to utilize your backyard more or not, but 1 think tabling it and giving you a chance to come back -- go to Menard's -- get a better rendering of what you're trying to do. Talk with your neighbors. See if you can come up with a compromise that works for both of you, and them come back and present to us. I think the Board, at least the members here today -- we're missing two members -- is accommodated towards probably a pretty significant variance. But to be able to do that, we want more detail. We want to minimize the level of variances that we're providing. S. Hesskamp: Yeah -- I could -- my intention is to build like only two -foot from that powerline forward. I think if that's good with the Building Code. I'm not quite sure. Coppola: Well there seems to be a lot of -- there seems to be a lot of space behind that powerline, probably too, correct? S. Hesskamp: Well, I've considered if I could bury the powerline, but I don't know how expensive that is. That could be five -- six thousand dollars. So that destroys my budget there. So I'm really sort of stuck. Coppola: It's not a difficult job. Again, I don't have -- it will when you bring in a visual in regards to where the powerlines are, how they impact your ability to use the backyard. I mean -- if you show that I can't use the backyard for anything for this because of utilities and other limitations, that gives you more support for a variance on the side yard. I don't see that right now. S. Hesskamp: Okay. Coppola: So is there a motion to table? Schepis: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Schepis. Upon Motion by Schepis and supported by Neville, it was: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 44 May 24, 2016 RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-05-37: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Scott and Barb Hesskamp, 37010 Joy, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to remove the existing detached garage and accessory building and construct a detached garage, resulting in excess area, overall height and excess wall height. Also, the detached garage will be in the side yard which is not allowed. Detached garages must be in the rear yard. Detached Garage Area: Garage Height: Wall Height: Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Allowed: 16 ft. Allowed: 10 ft. Proposed: 1200 sq. ft. Proposed: 26 ft. Proposed: 15 ft. Excess: 480 sq. ft. Excess: 10 ft. Excess: 5 ft. The property is located on the north side of Joy (37010), between Newburgh and Crown, Lot. No. 126-01-0749-006, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 2.10(5) "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms; Garage Private," and Section 18.24, "Residential Accessory Building," be tabled to allow the Petitioner to be able to take into account the Board's comments, and come back with a different or same plan. ROLL CALL VOTE AYES: Klisz, Schepis, Coppola, Baringhaus, Neville NAYS; None ABSENT: Henzi, Pastor Coppola. Okay, so your petition has been tabled. You have to call back to the zoning office and get rescheduled. The first meeting is on the 28th. There's no cost to reschedule. You're already taken care of that. You just need to get back on the agenda. Are we going to put a time frame on that, or just going to let it -- we generally put a time frame on a tabled, but -- Fisher: That's usually only if you've got somebody who's in violation. Coppola: Okay. All right. So whenever you're prepared to come back just call the zoning office and get on the schedule and we'll -- S. Hesskamp: Yeah. I can take care of this quickly. So the 28th will be fine. Hanosh: We have one spot available on the 28th. I would -- S. Hesskamp: Okay. I'll be sure to call in and get it -- is crossed and all that stuff. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 44 May 24, 2016 Hanosh: First come, first serve, but if we can get you there S. Hesskamp: Yeah Neville: Photographs of your backyard and the driveway. That will go a long way, and give us a layout. We've driven by there and seen it from the street and the driveway itself -- just to get an idea of what's behind the proposed structure. S. Hesskamp: Okay. Well right there is a fence and some gravel back there, but we're sort of retaking that over with landscaping, and the flowers are going to pop this week. So you'll see some pretty pictures. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 44 May 24, 2016 APPEAL CASE NO. 2015-05-38: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Roger and Suzanne Jean, 38918 Meeting House, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a six (6) foot tall privacy fence on a corner lot, resulting in excess fence height and the fence being within the side yard, which is not allowed. All privacy fences cannot be within the side or front yard. Privacy Fence Height — Corner Side Yard: Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Meeting House (38918), between Quakertown and the cul-de-sac, Lot. No. 070-01-0013-000, R -2C Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A,4bii and 15.44.0906, "Residential District Regulations." Coppola: Is there any questions for the Inspection? I have one question. So looking at the schematic that was provided -- 1 don't know if you have a copy of that, Craig -- so if they were to move the fence line to the back corner of the house on both sides of the house, there would be no -- would there be no requirement for a variance, or you would still need a variance for that on the side yard facing the road? Hanosh: Facing the road, the maximum is five feet. And the only way they could -- that's why they're coming in front of the Board today. So -- Coppola: But even if they had a fence line coming in beyond the back of the house. Hanosh: Right. But with one of the four criteria, one of them is maximum five foot on a corner lot, unless the provide us with the correct setback from the side yard -- from the street. Then they can go to six feet. The way they're zoned -- depending -- R2 -- depending on how the house faces behind them. It would change their setback. Coppola: There's no house behind them. R. Jean: There's Eastern Michigan behind us. Hanosh: So they would still -- Coppola: 1 just want to make sure it's clear with what type of variances -- or what adjustments can be made to minimize the variances. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 44 May 24, 2016 Hanosh: We could have given the -- we could have issued it at five feet. They're asking for more, and then R2 were talking -- Coppola: And they could have gotten five feet beyond the back of the house. Hanosh: Five-foot tall. R2 in all cases, I have at least a minimum 17 -foot setback according to our side yard setbacks. And they could go to a 6 -foot fence if they had a minimum 17 -foot setback on the side yard -- adjacent to the street. Neville: Okay. We are actually looking potentially two variances. One on the height for the side, and then coming -- extending the fence towards the front of the house, right? The side lot? Fisher: Correct. Coppola: That's what 1 was asking. Any other questions? Okay. If you can just give me a name and address first. R. Jean: Roger, 38918 Meeting House Lane, Livonia Michigan. Coppola: Okay. Please proceed. R. Jean: We're asking for the variance on the side for six-foot, but I know we're going to come up the side, but we're -- we just bought this house -- okay. We're going to put a pool in. I know that the variance says you can't come up the side of the house, but the house offsets off the corner. So it's not going to interfere with seeing or obstructing any cars or view. We did look around the neighborhood. There are a lot of six-foot fences. S. Jean: 1 have pictures. I have no privacy in the house. All the cars are coming through. So this is my window to the back. So I just wanted a fence to start. So I would be brought into privacy and safety of the kids. And I have these nice boxes out in my backyard there. And I have another box here. AT&T just walks through the backyard, and I said who's that man in our yard? My husband said that's AT&T's box, and they just cut through the yard to do their service. The kids at the college all sit on the nice berm back here, and I get to pick up all the Burger King and all that good stuff. We are planning a pool with all the specifications needed. We are going to have an in ground pool on this side here. And people standing on the berm could just look right over the fence. So we decided we thought we should go six-foot because the berm is like four feet. Another neighbor came down to let us know that there was a police report that there was a gentleman -- I wouldn't call him a gentleman -- on the back looking in all houses. Walking up and down the berm. So the police come and a report was made. There's constantly traffic going through because we all want to cut through City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 44 May 24, 2016 Quakertown to avoid Six and Haggerty. No stops signs are there, and there are no signs indicating that you can't go through. like if I go to CVS, there's no thru traffic. Neville: And just for the record, your name is? S. Jean: Oh, yeah. I'm Suzanne Jean. Coppola: Okay. So you're planning to put a pool in the rear yard. You're going to take all of the trees and put a pool? S. Jean: No. The trees are on the berm. R. Jean: The trees are on the berm. Coppola: The trees -- there were trees in trees in your yard at one point. R. Jean: Yeah. Two small ones. S. Jean: Two small apples -- they're gone. Coppola: Okay. I understand you made a case for extending the fence beyond the rear line of your house. I'll call it the west side R. Jean: Yeah -- that's --- okay -- coming -- Coppola: -- because of the window. You actually go pretty far past that window. Why - - why extend beyond the rear of the house on the east side. R. Jean: Just to fence it in, and I was going to put a horseshoe pit there -- you know -- on the side of the house. The pool is going to be in the back. Just privacy. S. Jean: My trash cans are going there. On the back of each picture. These are just my street and a few that are on a Six Mile. And there are one two streets down that has the exact same fencing we're asking for, but we're setting back on each side. Schepis: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr, Schepis. Schepis: So on the side -- I think it would be the east side of your house where this just extends a little bit, is there a window here? S. Jean: No. The window's up a little bit further. Schepis: Up further here? City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 44 May 24, 2016 S. Jean: Yes. Schepis: Okay. So this Is just S. Jean: Just dead area. Where's there an electrical box -- R. Jean: Yeah, that's the underground cable and electrical boxes back there in the corner. S. Jean: No, on the side of the house. What's on the side of the house? The meters? R. Jean: Oh, the meters are on that side. S. Jean: On that side. That would just be box blocking them so they wouldn't be exposed. Schepis: Blocking the meters in, correct? S. Jean: Right. R. Jean: Yeah -- yeah. Closing that in so you don't see it. Schepis: Okay. R. Jean: Yep. Schepis: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Neville: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Neville. Neville: Just looking at your picture. Looks like the -- to the south of the meter there the -- probably from the sump discharge and then a downspout. R. Jean: Yeah. That's right there in the front. Neville: By the gutter -- or in the downspout. Is your plan then to extend the fence up to the corner of the house, or -- S. Jean: No it's down -- Neville: Now -- just bear with me -- this photo -- is this photograph on the east or the west side of your home? R. Jean: That's the west side. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 44 May 24, 2015 S. Jean: The west side. So the fence would start down here. Neville: Okay. S. Jean: And the fence would go starting about here. After this window here, then we would start the fence here. So then that way nobody's obstructed my front porches here, and my garage goes way out here. So nobody's going to see this fence here. Neville: Okay. When the comment was made about, with regards to the meter, I was thinking there's just not much room. S. Jean: No. We were talking about the meter on this side. So I have meter and stuff back here -- we were going to fence that is so it didn't look -- oh there you go. Neville: Okay. All right. At least on the west, it will be between the two block -- block windows that are in the basement. S. Jean: After the block window. Neville: After the first one? S. Jean: Yes. Neville: Got you. S. Jean: So we measured it out that way. And this is the rest of the house that comes all the way out. So no neighbors will be obstructed at all. Neville: All right. Thank you. Coppola: Any questions? Klisz: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: The pictures that you showed, of fences nearby. Are those six-foot fences? S. Jean: Yes. R. Jean: Yes. Klisz: Okay. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 44 May 24, 2016 Baringhaus: On the west side of your property, are you planning to run the fence right up to the sidewalk? R. Jean: What's ever the laws. I don't want to guess. S. Jean: We are following variances in that. R. Jean: Variance -- I think it's a foot off. You got to be a foot off sidewalk. S. Jean: Whatever the variance was, that's what we were following along on that. Schepis: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: I don't remember. Does your neighbor to the east -- so 38886 --- do they have a fence? S. Jean: Is that my neighbor next door to me? Schepis: Yeah, your next door neighbor. S. Jean: No she doesn't. So she was sending a letter in. Do you have letter from her, Elaine Cotant? She wanted to come in tonight, but her son had a heart -- 1 mean her brother had a heart attack. Coppola: Yeah, there's a letter here. S. Jean: And she was thrilled about this fence. Schepis: Okay. Thank you. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Why do you feel that a five-foot fence wouldn't be sufficient? S. Jean: Well, across the back that berm is three feet high, so anybody standing on that right there can see it. We're planning on putting in and in ground pool. I think that on the sidewalk just for people not to try and hop the fence. It might be for the safety of everybody that we did a six-foot fence. Baringhaus: But with a three-foot berm, you'll still be able to see over a six-foot fence. S. Jean: But six feet might be a little better than five to try and climb. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 44 May 24, 2016 R. Jean: And for privacy. S. Jean: We have this huge building behind us. Coppola: Mr. Hanosh, they're allowed a six-foot fence in the rear yard, aren't they? Hanosh: Correct. As long as they maintain the proper set back from the street side, which would be 17 feet. Coppola: In the backyard if -- in the backyard I'm talking about. Hanosh: The 6 -foot fence could only extend closer -- no closer to the street than 17 feet. That would have to be reduced to 5 feet. Coppola: I see what you're saying. Even the rear. So it would have to step down. Generally, the zoning says you'd have to step down as you get within 17 feet of the street. Hanosh: Yeah it would step down. Coppola: I forget -- that includes not the easement, but the actual street itself, right? Hanosh: Street side or any -- or the proper setback for that without the house behind it would be 17 feet as the maximum. They have 26 feet there -- so you're talking about coming in 17 feet -- technically we could come 17 feet in and if they brought that fence in 17 feet they could bring that 6 -foot fence all the way to the perimeter corner of the house. Which would be the first variance. The second one is that they're trying to come towards the front corner of the house, which is the secondary one. Baringhaus: Question for the Inspection Department. On the west side -- I'm sorry -- how far would the fence have to come back to the rear corner of the house to be in compliance? Hanosh: Yeah. For any privacy fence, no more forward that the rear line of the house. On any privacy fence. Baringhaus: Sure. And then if that were to happen, then the 6 -foot fence would permissible. Just for clarification. Hanosh: No. It would still -- the 6 -foot fence would still have to be 17 feet from the property line as a setback on the street side -- on the west side. Then I could issue the 6 -foot. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 44 May 24, 2016 Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Okay. The fence that you're prosing, could you describe it? What color? What type of materials? R. Jean: It's a tan vinyl. Baringhaus: Okay. Thank you. Coppola: There's no -- is there an association -- is there limitations in regards to fences? S. Jean: No. R. Jean: No. Coppola: Are there any other questions? Since there's no one else in the audience, will move past the audience member participation. Mr. Baringhaus, is there any correspondence? Baringhaus: Yes, Mr. Chairman. We have four letters. First is a letter of approval from Elaine Cotant -- S. Jean: Cotant -- my neighbor. Baringhaus: -- thank you, (letter read). Another letter of approval form Lucia Bares, (letter read). Another letter of approval from Gloria and Gene Eberlein, (letter read). And then a fourth letter of approval from Linda Mancinelli, (letter read). Coppola: Would you like to make any final statements? R. Jean: No. S. Jean: I hope you agree with me. Coppola: We will do the Board's comments starting with Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: I definitely see the need for a fence, and I guess I'm going back and forth with the five-foot and six-foot height itself. Ideally, I'd like to see the west side of the fence maybe brought back closer to the rear of the house. More in line with the ordinance. So -- S. Jean: So the back room -- the only window I have in the house -- for my privacy you want open? Is that what you're saying? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Pago 39 of 44 May 24, 2016 Baringhaus: Well I'd like to see the fence more -- more in alignment with the current ordinance. S. Jean: So I can't have privacy? You want my window exposed? Coppola: You've have had your opportunity to talk. S. Jean: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know I couldn't -- Baringhaus: Yeah. Those are my two main concerns. Based on that I'd probably would like to see some type of revised plan. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I would be inclined to grant the request. I work at the AmeriCenters Building so I know your neighborhood very well. And live, myself, pretty close. I think it's also important to know the police department has chimed in with a note saying that the fence with excess height does not pose any hazard to any pedestrians or other traffic. So I would be inclined to grant the request. Coppola: Mr. Neville. Neville: I too feel that a need has been shown for the fence with respect to the commercial property around there. There isn't a stop sign on the intersection. Small children will be there. It will be a high traffic volume area. So I think a fence is a reasonable safety precaution. I also think that a 6 -foot privacy fence would be allowed as a matter under the ordinance along the rear lot line. I just think it would be more slightly in uniform to grant a variance so that that six-foot height could be extended, not only along the side lot line, but I would also be in favor of a granting a variance with respect to the regularly 17 -foot side setback, and the variance to extend the fence towards the front of the home. I think Mr. Baringhaus has made a reasonable suggestion relative, perhaps moving that fence back along the -- from the front of the home, as Ms. Jean proposed, between the two cinderblock windows. I might suggest just to the middle of the house under the peak of the gable of the home. And that way, there would still be the privacy in the bedroom and the for that area -- along in that area. I think that might be a suitable compromise. Coppola: Mr. Schepis. Schepis: I would support this as it's presented tonight. I think you've made a strong case for a variance. You know -- if this was anywhere else, I would have a little bit more struggle with this, but -- I mean -- you're right next to Six Mile. You're backing up to a -- basically a community college. I know in other parts of the city where there's a City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 44 May 24, 2016 commercial area and thea a residential area right behind it, there's a tall cinderblock wall -- I think at Five and Merriman -- on the north east corner -- I know there's some that don't have that, but -- you also have the support of your neighbors, and the police department has reviewed and said that isn't a sight hazard, which is something I'm concerned about when we look at six-foot privacy fences on corner lots. So I guess with the understanding that -- you know -- if this was somewhere else, I'd have lot more trouble with it. I would support this. Mr. Neville wanted to move it back to the middle of the house on the west side. That's ok, but I would support it as presented. Coppola: Yeah. Generally -- generally, I'm in support of it. The location of this house definitely suggests that a six-foot privacy fence around the rear yard is not an outlandish request. I think it's a very reasonable request. Especially where that's at. Where I'm struggling is where it gets passed the back of the house. While I prefer not to go back past that. I understand you showed me others that have it. I don't know if they got variances, they did it on their own. I don't know how they got it. I recall -- I've only been here about a year and a half -- I don't recall anybody from your neighborhood coming to look for a -- S. Jean: They did. Coppola: -- variance to bring forward, but I would be in support if you were willing to just move that west side back a little bit, as suggested by Mr. Neville. If you were to say just the back yard -- hundred percent support, got it. If you move that back, I think that's a reasonable compromise. I can support that. So do we have a -- does anyone want to make a resolution? Neville: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Neville. Upon Motion by Neville and supported by Schepis, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-05-38: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Roger and Suzanne Jean, 38918 Meeting House, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a six (6) foot tali privacy fence on a corner lot, resulting in excess fence height and the fence being within the side yard, which is not allowed. All privacy fences cannot be within the side or front yard. Privacy Fence Height — Corner Side Yard: Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 44 May 24, 2016 Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the north side of Meeting House (38918), between Quakertown and the cul-de-sac, Lot. No. 070-01-0013-000, R -2C Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090A,4bii and 15.44.090B, "Residential District Regulations," be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of the layout and configuration of the lot in relationship to the neighborhood, and the commercial establishment behind the home, and that the property is wide open. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because of those very same safety factors and considerations. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the Petitioners have received support from their neighboring property owners, and what they are seeking is consistent with other properties in that neighborhood. 4. The Board received four letters of approval and zero objection letters from neighboring property owners. 5. The property is classified as "low density residential" in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the six-foot privacy fence along the southwest side of the house be moved back towards the middle of the home, so it would be lined up with gable on the home. 2. That the fence be installed as designed and presented with the materials set forth in the petition and supporting documentation. ROLL CALL VOTE City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 44 May 24, 2016 AYES: Klisz, Schepis, Coppola, Baringhaus, Neville NAYS; None ABSENT; Henzi, Pastor Coppola: Okay. Your motion's approved with the following conditions. That the fence will be on the west side of your house go no further than the middle of the home, towards the front. R. Jean: Okay. All right. Coppola: And that it be erected as presented with materials and such. R. Jean: Great. Okay. S. Jean: Thank you. Coppola: Congrats. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry -- Coppola: We have minutes, right? Baringhaus: Yes. We have one set of minutes from the April 26th Minutes to approve. Coppola: Okay. Schepis: Mr. Chairman I make a motion to approve the Minutes. Coppola: Do I have a support? Neville: I'll support. Coppola: Do I have a motion adjourn? Neville: I'll make a motion to adjourn. Coppola: Who would like to second that? Schepis: I'll second. Coppola: We're adjourned. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 44 May 24, 2016 There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned at 8-37 p.m. Gr6gory' 6. Cop`p'ola,"A66g Chairman J 6av'JA.,,vYdA A Jiging aus','Acting Secretary M City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 44 May 24, 2016