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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MINUTES 2016-07-26A Special Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, July 26, 2016. MEMBERS ABSENT: OTHERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman Jim Baringhaus, Secretary Craig Pastor Leo Neville Gregory S. Coppola Benjamin A. Schepis Timothy Klisz Mike Fisher, City Attorney Craig Hanosh, City Inspector Beth Niemczewski, CER -7224 The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight's minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Five (5) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 26 people present in the audience. (7:00) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 56 July 26, 2016 APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-05-37 (Tabled on June 28,201 : An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Scott and Barb Hesskamp, 37010 Joy, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to remove the existing detached garage and accessory building and construct a detached garage, resulting in excess area, overall height and excess wall height. Detached Garage Area Garage_Heigh t: Wall Height: Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Allowed: 16 ft. Allowed: 10 ft. Proposed: 1200 sq. ft. Proposed: 24 ft. Proposed: 13 ft. Excess: 480 sq. ft. Excess: 8 ft. Excess: 3 ft. The property is located on the north side of Joy (37010), between Newburgh and Crown, Lot. No. 126-01-0749-006, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 2.10(5), "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms; Garage Private," and Section 18.24, "Residential Accessory Building." Henzi: Is there a motion to remove from the table. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I'll make a motion to remove this from the table. Henzi: Is there support? Coppola: Support. Henzi: Moved by Mr. Pastor, support by Mr. Coppola. All in favor, say aye. Board Members: Aye. Henzi: Thank you. Mr. Hanosh, anything to add to this case? Hanosh: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Hanosh? Coppola: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: Mr. Hanosh, the schematic that was provided to us in the package for the new -- for the revised petition here, shows a wall -- I guess where's the wall height measure? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 56 July 26, 2016 Because this shows a 10 --foot wall height. The -- the notice shows a 13 -foot wall height. So where - where's the wall height measure? Is it the height of the -- of the door, or is it the height of the - of the outside wall? Hanosh: Actually the outside wall extends passed the roof line. The roof line actually has an overhang, which actually overhangs almost 3 feet. So we had to give an estimate on the wall height, which is the wall height of 10 feet, which would be the top plate of the structure itself. With the roof, and the design the way it is, it will actually be hanging down where it actually only shows 10 feet as a wall height, but technically the wall height does actually extend up passed that. This is actually an overhang. Coppola: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table. Hesskamp: Good evening. Henzi: Good evening. Tell us your names and address, please. Hesskamp: Scott and Barb Hesskamp, 37010 Joy Road. Henzi: Okay. Go ahead and tells us about the changes that you have made. Hesskamp: Okay. First of all, I want to thank you for being here tonight. I'd also like to apologize for not being as prepared as I should have been the last two meetings, being have never done this before. I'm going to read this because in the last couple meetings think I've missed out on a lot of important points. Henzi: Okay. Hesskamp: I believe that we did establish that under our current conditions, we do have a hardship because of the age of the two current buildings we have. The first is a shed built in 1945, which the roof is beginning to collapse in. The current garage, which was built in 1950, is 440 square feet and has both failing leaking roof and a failing floor. It floods every time we get a significant rainfall. Our original plan was to be in the same location as the current garage. We were asked to remove it away from the east property line and behind the house, instead of beside it. Although this will involve having to move some powerlines and cut down some trees, I think in your current property drawing shows the new garage relocated to the back of the property. Our property slopes from the front to the rear. So the garage will appear to be lower by a foot and a half to two feet than it is. The front of the garage will be 277 feet from Joy Road to the north, and it will be behind at least nine 40 -foot tall spruce trees, and a six-foot privacy fence. There are mature trees on both sides of where the garage will be placed to block the view as well. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 56 July 26, 2016 think Barb had a view from the street. The property diagram also shows the new garage, not 13 feet, instead of 5 feet from the east property line, as requested. We've decided to move it over another two feet. So this will now be 15 feet from the east property line. We also lowered the wall height from 15 feet to the current allowed 10 -foot in height. I think that was -- that question came up just prior to us coming up about the 13 -foot and 10 - foot. I think that was well explained on -- that's clear that it is 10 -foot. The black and white drawing from Menard's, which I think you have, shows another version of -- of a roof pitch that we could do, and that would exactly match the house, as the house is now. Either design doesn't really matter to us. Either is preferably -- fine. Barb's holding a picture of --a picture that we brought in the first meeting. It just --it's not to scale of what we're building, but it shows the color, the roof color, and how nice it will look. At the last meeting, I said dark red for the roof color. I really meant maroon. It's a version of red, I suppose. However, we have decided on the color to be brown to match the -- the house exactly. And I know in the future we're going to have to replace the -- the roof on the house as well. So we wanted to come up with a final color that we could match both together. We did an exact height measurement of the fifth wheel trail, and it's 12 -foot -six. So 13 -foot is sort of a minimum door height that we would accommodate to put the trailer inside, which is the common height for most larger size campers. So if we ever did upgrade the camper, this would still allow us to be able to store it inside. So to allow for the door clearance, and clearance for the header, and to room upstairs to be able to walk around upright, we ended up working with Menard's and we came to a total height of 24 feet. At both past meeting, many of the Board Members stated that they'd be okay with 25. We have worked this down from 26 feet. After speaking to one neighbor, we realized that most of them had not mailed in their letters because they didn't have a problem with the garage, and they sort of assumed that that might be perceived as an approval. So we talked to 11 neighbors that are within a 300 -foot distance of our home. And we showed them the proposed design and the size of the garage, and they all liked it. They didn't have a problem with the size, and they felt it would be a good improvement to our community there, and add to their property values as well, and to especially get rid of our dilapidated old garage. Another question was brought up about the usage of the garage by Mr. Pastor. I think I included some drawings of a way out of where things would go. Everybody have that? Board Members: Yes. Hesskamp: Okay. In there's a 26 and a half foot fifth wheel camper, 1968 Ford tractor that we use for log splitting. We do supplement with -- with firewood in our home. Kayaks, canoes, motorcycles, bikes and etcetera. Upstairs will be storage and a woodworking shop. Barb's father is 81 and downsizing. He is giving us all of his woodworking equipment, which is an amazing gift for someone like me who loves making projects for City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 56 July 26, 2016 our home. We're passing around some pictures of the equipment that he's giving us. It's -- it's quite a bit, but he's quite a -- a wood smith himself. As far as storage, we host a lot -- host numerous neighborhood get-togethers, including large Christmas party and Halloween party. We have a lot over -sized decorations and outdoor props. Boxes of Christmas and Halloween lights. We love to decorate for Christmas season. It's my favorite time of year. As well as, the patio furniture, cushions, and etcetera that will be stored upstairs. With this garage, we would be able to have the out sided area completely clear of anything under tarps, or anything like, that we've had to store over the last couple of years. Another inquiry was brought up at the last meeting as to whether we have a basement. We do, and I didn't understand at the time where to go with that, but our -- our basement is completely finished, and we have no storage down there. And -- and Barb is sending a picture around. This is some of the woodworking I have done in the house. That staircase is wood from West Virginia, from Barb's uncle. And Barb's dad and I worked on that. Cut it up, and made that staircase out of wormhole oak. Since our house was built in 1937, the basement was just the first room that needed to be done. As most of the rooms -- the floors are damaged and things like that. I work quite a bit. So it's hard to get the time now to work on a lot of things. Especially with limited space. I really need some space to be able to have a project in the garage, and be able to leave it there and come back to it. Up to now, I've had to do a lot of work outside. Also, the house being built in 1937, a lot of the closet are very small, as you can imagine. Just enough to fit some clothes and shoes in. I hope we have illustrated and explained our need for a 30x40 garage, and that it will blend into our property well, and we look forward to having an area around our garage needing landscaped because the rest of backyard, that we've worked very hard on. And 1 just want to thank you for your time and consideration in this matter. Henzi: Mr. Hesskamp, are you going to bring the driveway all the way back to the new garage? Hesskamp: The driveway's pretty much going to be redesigned. Where the old garage is now -- of course that concrete pad is going to have to be tore out, and in that corner I'm planning on doing landscaping there. That will be behind the privacy fence, of course, where -- where it comes around the garage now, and then continue down the side of the garage. So really we're just trying to -- we're going to have brick pavers out in front of the garage. That's an extension of our patio that's in the rear. Just really blend into the landscape really nicely in our backyard. Henzi: Are you going to park cars in the new garage? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 56 July 26, 2016 Hesskamp: We can -- with everything that we're going to have in there, we can get one of our cars in there, but we've parked outside our whole lives. So we've never had an attached garage before. Henzi: Okay. And then, I just want to ask you about the roof pitch. I think it looks pretty nice, and I like the idea to match the house. But my question was, was that strictly so it would match the house, or was there an engineering concern that you had? For example, did it help fit your needs by lowering the height or something else? Hesskamp: There's really no engineering concerns. No. Henzi: All right. You just thought it would look better? Hesskamp: Yeah. Yeah. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr, Baringhaus. Baringhaus: In your diagram you have basically two work areas. One on the ground floor, one on the second level, and you have a work bench and a work table -- Hesskamp: Yes. Baringhaus: -- on the lower level. Wood -- woodworking and a craft room in the upper level -- Hesskamp: Yes. Baringhaus: Are those going to provide different functions? Hesskamp: The downstairs one -- I'm sorry. The downstairs one -- you know -- we have a lot of camping equipment, and if the fifth wheel is in there, just sort of have a work area to prepare to leave, and the kayaks and things like that. If I'm working on a motorcycle or something, I'd like to do it down there. Baringhaus: You also have -- can you tell me what the rafter space will be utilized for, or is that just to give yourself more head room in the second story. Hesskamp: With the room up there, there won't be any accessible rafter space. Baringhaus: You have it indicated on the diagram. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 56 July 26, 2016 Hesskamp: Oh, I'm sorry. Where I indicated where there is rafter space? Baringhaus: Yes. Hesskamp: No. That's all going to be enclosed. I won't be able to put anything in there. Baringhaus: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Coppola: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: I got to ask. How often are you going to be able to use your Chevy pickup truck? It's kind of cornered in there behind the fifth wheel and the tractor. Is that just for pulling the fifth wheel? Hesskamp: I've had it for quite a few years. It only has 66,000 original miles on it. Coppola: You use that to pull the fifth wheel? Hesskamp: No. That's something I got an opportunity to buy it. In the future, I'd like to drive it. It's just sort of sitting there collecting age, but right now it's outside and I want to get that out of the weather. Coppola: Okay. Hesskamp: It's really in beautiful condition. Coppola: Oaky. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. Paciero: Frank Paciero, 11810 Roselinda. I'm still against the barn that he wants to put up. I'm against the two story. For the first thing, I'm glad he made some changes. Pushed it back. I think it's going to be bigger than his house. l don't think it's going to look as nice as a regular garage with the City would allow. I guess that's all I got. Henzi: Thank you. DiCicco: Hello. My name's Larry DiCiccio, 37080 Joy Road. I live west of Barb and Scott, and I've been there for 15 years. They maintain their house and property exquisitely, very nice, landscaped. Whatever they do in their yard, front yard, backyard, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 56 July 26, 2016 it will improve the value of the neighborhood. And they don't do anything shabby. It's always first class. Thanks for your time. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? B. Hesskamp: We have some letters of people that haven't had a chance to mail it in. Henzi: Okay. Okay. Can you read the letters? Baringhaus: Absolutely. Dawn N. Richardson, 36850 Joy Road. Letter of approval, (letter read). Claude Mason, letter of approval. Robert W. Strong, 37804 Joy Road. Letter of approval, (letter read). Justin Lafave (sic) 36851 Joy Road. Letter of approval. Romunaldo Pajulio, 37144 Joy Road, approves. Janice M. Morterud, no address listed. I'm sorry. Address is 37125 Joy Road. Letter of approval, (letter read). Letter of approval from Nicholas Cockfield, 36830 Joy Road, (letter read). Letter of approval from Irene Owens, 37200 Joy Road, (letter read). Letter of approval from Larry Petereson, 36827 Joy Road, (letter read). Letter form Jay Cubbison, 37055 Joy Road, (letter read). Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Hesskamp, anything you want to say in closing? Hesskamp: Nope. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. I'll close --briefly. Paciero: This is -- these are pictures of how the Hesskamp's keep their yard. That's on my east -- that's on their east lot line. Behind their garage now. Henzi: All right, Mr. Hesskamp, when these come around, I'll let you respond, and then we'll close it. Hesskamp: Can 1 see the pictures, too? Henzi: Yeah. Hesskamp: Okay. Any of these items that Frank is showing -- the blue Suburban there is my son's. That's going to be going back to college very soon. That trailer's an old landscape trailer that we used to have. I don't when these pictures were taken. Obviously, you've all had three months to look at our property and see the condition that it's in. The previous two meetings Mr. Schepis has asked me why 1 have not talked to Frank. I've been very quiet, non -confrontational and I did not want to bring up any problems with him. I really hate confrontation. I really do. When we bought the house in 2008 -- I don't have pictures to prove this. I'm sorry, but we did have a turn -around in our driveway because at the existing time, the driveway came right straight into the garage, and then there was a turn around to back up and pull out. He took it upon himself, before City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 56 July 26, 2016 we moved into the house, to cut that off and dump it on his property. That was a long time ago. That was eight years ago. And I tried to be civil with Prank. I mowed his property for free for five years to maintain. And also, when we first moved in, there was a huge brush pile on the property that I removed. No charge. Cleaned up his lot. No charge. Did his fall clean-ups. No charge, for five years. And we had that property looking very pretty. At some point in time, for no reason, he asked me to stop mowing the property. And at that time, I said okay. I don't really have any problem mowing your property. I -- I enjoy doing it. Soon after that I will, picture number one, that's from a couple years ago. Prank has a number of rental properties -- Henzi: Well --- I don't know that we need to get into that. If you sum up with -- he's got a dispute. Hesskamp: I really don't want to. I'm just explaining -- B. Hesskamp: We're just showing that -- Hesskamp: Okay. I'll cut to it short. Henzi: You think he's biased? Hesskamp: He uses his lot for dumping debris. B. Hesskamp: And selling. Hesskamp: There's debris there now, concrete, lava rock, and branches. He sells vehicles off the front of the lot on City property. I've said nothing, except for this first picture that I sent you a couple of years ago -- to the City. And really I -- I just try to be a good guy and stay to myself, and every time he comes here now -- and tonight he doesn't like the whole idea at all. Where before he, sort of said he did. He's okay with everything. I've tried to abide by what he wanted, and then tonight it's a whole other story. So after, I guess I'm done. Henzi: Okay. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Can you tell me why you have a fork lift in backyard? Hesskamp: Pardon? Pastor: One of his pictures showed a forklift in your backyard. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 56 July 26, 2016 Hesskamp: We use that for hauling the firewood, but that will be gone when the garage is done. Pastor: Where will it go to? Hesskamp: Just get rid of it. It's old. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Okay. I'll close the public portion of the case, and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Neville. Neville: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think over the course of the previous meetings that the Petitioners have made real good progress towards trying to satisfy the conditions and the things that we have asked for them. I think they've got a large enough lot that would support this structure. The location is further back and centered as we had asked. I think that would make it very difficult to see from the -- from the road. They've established the need for the proposed structure. They've got a tremendous amount of neighborhood support. I believe that they have satisfied the need. I would be in support of their request for the variance with some conditions. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yeah, once again, this is an extremely unit. I wish he was able to cut it down a couple hundred feet, but for some reason, he doesn't think he's able to. I think I can support it. I mean -- he does have an extremely large lot. He has made some adjustments. I think I can support this. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: l agree. I think over the course of the last couple of meetings, the Petitioner's made a sincere effort to adjust his plans, meet our requirements. It's also, tonight, I feel, did a very good job of explaining and rationalizing the need for the additional storage, the additional size of the structure. Based on that, I'll support the variance. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: Yeah. 1, too, am going to support these. Responded to -- to the Board's requests. Lowered the height and made some other adjustments -- moved it. Changed some of the finishing so that it matched better. I'm good with that. The only -- the only thing that would -- would suggest is that there's been some -- some -- I -- I consider confusion in regards to the wall height. And you had mentioned that the wall height would City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 56 July 26, 2016 be 10 -foot. The only modification that I would suggest is that -- that we not approve anything in excess of a 10 -foot wall height. Henzi: Okay. 1, too, will vote to approve the variance. My -- my real hesitation was the garage height, and Mr. Hesskamp did a really nice job tonight. With his presentation, he persuaded me that there's a need for the garage, and that it won't be unsightly for the three reasons. Number one, he said it's 277 feet from the property, which is accurate. And there are matures trees, which is accurate. And I would like to make a condition that those trees stay. Hesskamp: Oh, absolutely. Henzi: And also, slight slope and so I think it will look very nice. So floor's open for motion. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Upon Motion by Baringhaus and supported by Neville, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-05-37 Tabled on June 28 2016: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Scott and Barb Hesskamp, 37010 Joy, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to remove the existing detached garage and accessory building and construct a detached garage, resulting in excess area, overall height and excess wall height. Detached Garage Area Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Proposed: 1200 sq. ft. Excess: 480 sq. ft. Garage Height: Allowed: 16 ft. Proposed: 24 ft. Excess: 8 ft. As Amended by the Board: Wall Height: Allowed: 10 ft. Proposed: 13 ft. Excess: 3 ft. Detached Garage Area Garage Height: Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Allowed: 16 ft. Proposed: 1200 sq. ft. Proposed: 24 ft. Excess: 480 sq. ft. Excess: 8 ft. The property is located on the north side of Joy (37010), between Newburgh and Crown, Lot. No. 126-01-0749-006, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 56 July 26, 2016 under Ordinance 543, Section 2.10(5), "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms; Garage Private," and Section 18.24, "Residential Accessory Building," be granted in part for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met due to the large size of the lot, and the location of the proposed building. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner due to reduced storage area, and relying on buildings that are in need of replacement. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance due to the majority of the neighbors endorsing and supporting the construction of the new building. 4. The Board received twelve letters of approval and zero objection letters from neighboring property owners. 5. The property is classified as "low density residential" in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions.- 1. onditions: 1. That the building walls shall not exceed 10 feet in height. 2. That the trees currently existing on property, remain on the property. 3. That the structure be built as presented. 4. That the structure be built not any less than 15 feet from west property line, and no more than 35 feet from the north property line. 5. That no other out buildings or sheds be built on the property. 6. That there be no outside storage of equipment and no outside storage of vehicles except petitioner's personal vehicles. AYES: Baringhaus, Neville, Pastor, Coppola, Henzi NAYS: None City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 56 July 26, 2016 ABSENT. Schepis, Klisz Henzi: So it's granted. We read the four conditions, but the last two were no outside storage, which you can't do anyway, and then you can't have other accessory buildings. Hesskamp: Correct. Henzi: Thank you. Hesskamp: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 56 July 26, 2016 APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-07-53; An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Christopher Gable, 35875 West Chicago, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to perform firearm sales and distribution from a personal residence which is not allowed. The property is located on the South side of West Chicago (35875), between Arthur and West end (dead end), Lot. No. 125-02-0587-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 3.08, "District Regulations," and Section 4.02 (g), 3, 9, "Permitted Uses." Henzi: Mr. Hanosh, anything to add to this case? Hanosh: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table. Good evening. Jastren: Good evening. Kyle Jastren, 35875 West Chicago Street. Gable: I'm Chris Gable, 35875 West Chicago Street. Henzi: Okay. Mr. Gable, go ahead and tell us about the request. Gable: Well, I'm actually going to let Kyle explain it. We are going to be co -owning the business. Henzi: Okay. Jastren: So our business plan -- this is really the first step in our business plan is to get the approval from the Zoning Board to even apply for a Federal Firearms License, which is legal in the State of Michigan, and legal across the country. Now our uniqueness requirement is that we can't apply for that license. Secondly, I served in active duty in the Marine Corp., and I learned about firearms. I got out of the Marine Corp., and I was actually injured pretty severely. So as part of my medical disability, I'm not going to be able to work too much longer in going to a nine to five job. So Chris is my step -father, and kind of was looking out for me. You know -- we talked about it. I said hey, wouldn't it nice for us to have a business together where I could come and go in my leisure and I'm not - not suffering some of my medical issues so severely. So that was where we built this plan. Now I know a lot about firearms, as does Chris, based upon my military experience. But our plan is to largely do ecommerce. So 1 think everybody hears firearm, and they hear -- you know -- they're going to do gun sales out of their house. And they're going to -- they think that these people are going to be showing up to the house and buying guns on a regular basis, and that's not the case at all. The primary -- primary City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 56 July 26, 2016 driver behind this business is ecommerce. So again, selling firearms to other licensed firearm dealers across the country. We're not really touching a firearm. But -- you know -- as Chris can -- can pass around and show you. There's currently nine other FFL's that are licensed firearm dealers in the city of Livonia, conducting business out of their homes. One of those firearms dealers is in our neighborhood. So that -- that kind of gives you guys the gist of what's going on. I don't know if you have anything that I might have missed. Gable: The only thing that I want to add is, all we want to do is firearm sales. Currently, two of the FFL's in the city are -- are manufacturers of firearms in residential areas. Zoned the same as us. And one of them is actually a manufacturer of ammunition. We're not looking to do that, anyway. .fust -- just sell firearms. Part of the will be -- part of that will include transfers. If somebody purchases a firearm through an ecommerce site or goes through the mail, you have to have a license firearm dealer due that transfer. They handle background checks and all the type of stuff. So we would also handle transfers. Henzi: Did you get that list of who's got the license from some licensing agency, or otherwise? Gable: It came from the ATF website, and it's current. It comes out every month. The - - the copy I supplied with my package was from last month, and then l actually I have a copy of this month's and there's no changes. Henzi: Okay. Could you describe, for me, a little bit more detail -- I know what ecommerce is, but who's the customer? How do you do business? Jastren: So how you do business is, typically, eitherthrough some sort of an ecommerce site like their -- you know -- Amazon.com, right. There are firearms sites that do the same thing. Or you have your own website. Our plan is to do both. Now if you were selling the firearm direct to consumer, you -- you do business through a site like that. You may do direct to another firearms dealer. So for instance, I had a relationship with a distributor or a manufacturer, and I was a dealer in that firearm, they might go through me to purchase that. So I'm not even touching the firearm. The firearm is going straight to the manufacturer to this firearm -- Federal Firearms Licensee. So again, it's a unique situation where you're -- you're hands off for the most part. Now like Chris said, we will also be conducting transfers. And that the action of someone goes through and ecommerce site and purchases that firearm from another Federal Firearms Licensee, and then sends it to us so that we can do the background check and supply them with the firearm, after they pass the background check and they're up to snuff legally. So that's kind of how it works. Does that answer your question? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 56 ,July 26, 2016 Henzi: Yeah. I think my last question would be, so are your sales monitored like Dick's Sporting Goods is? Meaning you've got to keep records of to whom you sell? Jastren: Same exact process, yep. Henzi: And then the ATF enforces any violations and monitors you? Jastren: The ATF enforces any violations and they'll inspect you on a regular basis as well. So you have to have a bound book available, and essentially a record system for whenever the come in and inspect who you sold a firearm to. The FBI supplies you with a background check number that you put against that person's name. They'll verify all that. There's serious fines and jail time involved if you do not abide by those rules. So it's very strict. Very stringent. Exact same process that a Cabela's would go through. I mean -- there's absolutely no difference here from what we're doing to what they have to go through. Henzi: Who's your typical consumer? Jastren: Typical consumer is 30-40 white male. You know -- average guy, right. You know -- me and him right. I'm an executive at Roush right now in Livonia. You know -- a lot of the guys I work with directly -- you know -- we shoot sporting clays together and things like that. So that's my average consumer. That's my target market. Henzi: Okay. Any questions? Neville: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: I guess the thing that pops to my mind is, where is your inventory kept, maintained, stored? Jastren: You're not really keeping a large inventory. You're doing that really special order, right. So if you come to me and say hey -- hey Kyle, I'd like to buy this -- this sporting shotgun from you, and you leave me a deposit. I'll order that directly for you, and then send that to the house, and have it ready for you. So there's really no inventory on hand, so to speak. Neville: Okay. Gable: The inventory that we do have, if we do have a gun temporarily, the ATF has requirements -- a safe that has to meet certain requirements, which we will have in place. They just want an area designated for -- as like and office. We actually have been through the ATF interview already, and he was totally pleased. He just realized at that point -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 56 July 26, 2016 because he called into the City prior to coming to see us, that you guys wanted to -- to go through this process. So we'll have to start back over with the ATF. Neville: So you have gun safes that the -- the merchandise would be stored in pending transfer to the buyer. Gable: Absolutely. Jastren: That's correct. Neville: And is there a limitation on the type of firearms that you can sell or that you cannot sell, more importantly? Jastren: So a Type 01 FFL or a Type 04 FFL, you're really restricted to just your normal firearms you'd see in Dick's Sporting Goods. Same exact classification. Neville: Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Your license, is it a Type 01 or Type 04? Jastren: We originally applied for a Type 04 -- Gable: Type 07. Jastren: -- Type 07, and then we changed it to a Type 01. Gable: Correct. Baringhaus: Type 01. Tell me something about the safe. How large is it? How much does it weigh? Where do you plan on locating it? Jastren: So the safe is approximately 700 pounds, and it will be located inside the office of the home, and bolted through the floor joists. So it's not a pick it up and carry it away -- in addition to weighing 700 pounds, it will be bolted down. Now the safe is manufactured here in the USA, fireproof safe, and it is a residential security container certified. So that it means that it meets all the minimum criteria to be classified as a residential security container. So if you went into a Dick's or a Cabela's -- I hate to keep referring to that -- but if you went in there and looked at -- you know -- one of the big gun safes. That's what you can envision it. I mean -- it's really the same thing. Baringhaus: Is the safe inspected prior to the approval of your license? City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 56 July 26, 2016 Jastren: It is. Baringhaus: It is. Do you store ammunition at the location? Jastren: We will probably store some ammunition, not much. Whatever the average consumer would have in their home. Baringhaus: In terms of the business model you're proposing, if I were interested in purchasing a weapon, why would I go to you and not go to the source directly? Jastren: Well, as part of our business model, you don't have those overhead costs, right. So you have mortgage payment, and that's really it. You don't have the overhead costs of a facility operation, paying employees, all the staff that's associated with that. So in some instances, I can purchase firearms wholesaler distributor and sell them at a lower price than a Dick's or Cabela's could because I don't have those overhead costs I have to bake into that. Gable: I'm not sure exactly what you meant by though the source? Baringhaus: Well, why would I go to you and not go to -- say -- a Cabela's or Dick's Sporting Good? Gable: Oh, okay. Jastren: Price. Baringhaus: Price, Okay. Have you discussed this business with your neighbors? Jastren: Yes. We've got a couple of them here that are in support of us, and 1 think there are some that are against us. So I'm willing to hear what they all have to say. Baringhaus: Thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Are you going to be selling suppressors? Jastren: Not at this time. Pastor: Do you have plans to sell suppressors? Jastren: We do. Pastor: Are you going to sell to law enforcement? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 56 July 26, 2016 Jastren: That's correct. Pastor: So you are going to have possible automatic weapons? Jastren: That's correct. That's a separate license that occurs later on. A whole separate process. Pastor: I understand. I'm looking at your application. It says, please explain how practical difficulty you claim is unique to your property, and doesn't exist elsewhere in the city, and you write that, it's unreasonable to prevent us from using this property for its intended use. The intended use of a residential home is to house residence, not to house a business. So that's a little --- not sure what you mean by that. Jastren: Yeah. I think that was a little unclear. We were unsure house to phrase our responses to those. So we felt like it would be better in person. We read some of the -- the previous people who had come before you to discuss such matters, and that was one of the items they suggested. Now 1 understand your point that it is for residential purposes. I'm not -- not trying tell you you're in the wrong. I mean -- I think that really our unique purpose, again, is that this business model supports what -- you know -- I need to do in the future, and what many others have done in the city of Livonia. Pastor: So why don't you go rent out an office space and got there and do it? Gable: Well, it would create a financial hardship, for starters. Pastor: Well we're not -- this Board is not supposed to take finances into consideration when we grant a variance. That's -- that part of our -- our motto, if you want to say. Jastren: Yeah. Makes sense. Pastor: So you saying that is like wind going through my hair because I -- we're not allowed to say -- think about that. Gable: Sure. I understand. Jastren: So our business model is not feasible for us without this variance. We cannot conduct the business model. I cannot participate in the business without this variance. Gable: We both work fulltime. So to keep hours -- you know -- would be difficult. Pastor: What do you do for a living? Gable: I work at Valassis Commercial Printing company. I'm a team leader at Valassis. Jastren: Also, in Livonia. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 56 July 26, 2016 Gable: In Livonia. We both work in Livonia. Pastor: One other question. 1 thought the ATF wasn't giving home licenses any longer. I thought that was just recently brought out. Jastren: That's incorrect. The ATF does still issue home licenses. There are many, many homes licenses. Pastor: I know there are existing home licenses -- Jastren: Correct. Pastor: -- but I thought they were not giving anymore new home licenses. Jastren: I would refer your question to the ATF website. They talk some -- in the late 1980s and early 1990s, they started to restrict homes licensing. They were -- they were allowing less home licenses. But as of late, a lot more people are getting their home licenses. And like Chris referred to, we've -- we already spoke with our ATF agent, conducted our interview, and he informed us of several other people that he's interviewed and issued licenses to in the Metro Detroit area for home business. Pastor: So they also got variances from theirs -- from their perspective cities? Because I believe the ATF will require you to get a variance from the city. Jastren: It depends on the city, but yes they do. Gable: The ATF requires you to follow the city guidelines, but they don't require a variance. Pastor: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Fisher, I had a question. Forget the type of business here. I would imagine that perhaps it would give some neighbors some concern. But let's say that anybody was running -- you know -- an ecommerce business out of their home. Is that in enough itself a violation of the ordinances? Fisher: No. The only thing that makes this a violation is the -- let's see -- it says that in the list of things that you can -- must or can't do in the home occupation that be illegal. The activity does not entail sales or rentals of any article or services, except such as produced by the applicant -- occupation. In other words, you're making candies in your house and you're selling those. That's a legitimate home occupation under our ordinance. Retail sales of stuff that somebody else manufactures does not qualify as a legitimate home occupation. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 56 July 26, 2016 Henzi: So if you were running a -- I mean -- if you're selling -- I don't know Pastor: Tupperware. Henzi: Yeah. Tupperware. You know -- via the website. You created domain, and you served as a distributor, is that a violation? Fisher: Well if the inventory doesn't ever come to your house -- if that's what you mean - - then no, I don't think we'd treat that as a violation. Henzi: What if the inventory comes on Thursday for a Friday pickup? I mean -- that's what's going to happen here. Fisher: No that's -- now you're selling out of your house. Henzi: Okay. All right. So then to the Petitioner follow along those lines. I'm curious about what this is going to do to the neighborhood because -- forget about the subject matter. You know -- I'm concerned about how many people are going to be driving up and down the street. How many sales you're going to have? That sort of thing. So could explain your forecast for how you do arrange pickup. Jastren: I think that's a very valid concern. It's a concern that I would have is if I was a neighbor. Our plan, right now, like I said is largely to be selling to other business to business and to be selling online via ecommerce. But to the transfer aspect of it, our current forecast is we might have a person a day at the maximum that would be coming to the house by appointment to meet with Chris myself to conduct a transfer. So it wouldn't be a large volume of traffic. No more than you currently see. Henzi: So then I can tell you that I've read Minutes from a variance granted many, many years ago, and the description was if the inventory would come on a Thursday for Friday pickup. Is that what you envision? Jastren: That's what happens. Yep. Henzi: And then there -- do there remain condition? For example, if FedEx delivers a weapon -- a firearm to your house, you've got to sign for it or an adult has to sign for it? Jastren: You must sign for it, and if you're not there to sign for it, the individual on the package -- if it's addressed to him and I'm not there, they will not deliver to me. It must be addressed to him and he must sign for it. So they would actually take it back to FedEx and he'd have to pick it up. Many distributors are addressed as that. But if we're operating under a business collectively, both him and I are a part of the business so we can sign for it. So I answered your question a little -- little of there, but I'm just talking about City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 56 July 26, 2016 personal level. So if I ordered a firearm myself, it has to be addressed to and I have to sign for it. But we're both operating the business. We both can sign for it, but if neither one of us are there, FedEx will take it back and obviously not deliver it. Henzi: So that if you get --- if you take delivery -- you're at home -- you sign for a firearm on a Thursday and I'm your customer, I'm going to come over on Friday. What do you do with it between Thursday and Friday? Jastren: The first thing you do when you receive a firearm is your bound by the ATF to regulation to log into bound book. That's the first thing you do. Before -- after you do that, obviously, you need to verify not only the packing slip, but the firearm that's inside. So you open the firearm. Make sure that the serial number matches what the description is. Then put it back in the box. Put away in your safe until the customer comes to pick it up. Henzi: Thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Let's talk about transfers and stuff. You're saying no more than one a day know several places that do two to three a day, every day. Jastren: I think it's possible. Right now, that's what our business model's projecting based upon our time availability. 1 think there could be growth in the future. I don't know what that number is. Pastor: When you say one -- let's say one or two a day, but then you also have gun sales, other than transfers, and how many gun sales do you think you're going to have? Jastren: I think the gun sales would be encompassed in the transfers as well. I think you're one to two a day would be our maximum capable with our current schedules. Gable: And one other thing I can add, as business builds, our long term goal, even though know it doesn't matter right now, would to be to open a brick and mortar. So once business got to that point to where it was more than what we're projecting, then hopefully we'd be able to open a store. Pastor: I know a store that's for sale. So you're going to have inventory, obviously, because someone's going to want something that you'll have in inventory. How much inventory do you plan on having? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 56 July 26, 2016 Jastren: Minimal. Our safe currently is 30 cubic feet, which to put into perspective, would probably be if you took half of this table. So half of this table right here. Pastor: So it's a 56 gun safe or 45 gun safe? Jastren: It's a 30 gun safe. Gable: Yeah, 30 or 32. Pastor: That's riffles normally. That's not handguns so. You usually you have a couple shelves for handguns. Jastren: I don't think we'd carry that much inventory to be honest with you. Like I said, there's a lot of capital investment associated with carrying inventory. We don't want to be a part of that. We don't want to be tied to that. I don't want the liability from the ATF of having firearms in my home that are not my firearms, even if they're sitting a safe. So I wouldn't want the liability. I'd say the maximum we'd ever have on hand would be five or ten. I mean -- a civilian -- I'll tell you right now, in my house of personal firearms, I have more than that. Pastor: Talking about liability, do you have to have any type of special insurance? Jastren: You do. You have liability insurance that's associated to your current homeowner's policy. So depending on your insurance company, you can add a rider policy for the business. Now it depends, like I said, the company and the policy, but that's typically what you do. Pastor: So you have theft -- Jastren: That's correct. And we also have an alarm system on the home. Gable: And we will be installing a surveillance system that will cover that area of the home. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: What did you mean by you -- you don't want the ATF liability by having a large amount of inventory? Jastren: If you have a large amount of inventory --- you're carrying inventory and something happens to the inventory, it's viewed negatively upon you. I mean that's -- that's -- obviously -- right. So these firearms stores that you heard of broken into in the city of Livonia --- I don't know if you're familiar, but I've -- I've seen them on TV and everything -- and that's my concern. I don't want that liability of ATV of having firearms City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 56 July 26, 2016 out there that were registered to my business that if something did happen, I'm liable to them. So that -- that's what I'm getting at. I would rather minimize that impact. If something should happen -- I don't think it should -- but none the less, I don't want to be put in that position ever. Henzi: I mean --does it heighten the chance of increase scrutiny by the ATF, and perhaps the removal from your license? Jastren: No. It's -- it's -- as long as you meet all the criteria for the inspection of the ATF. So you have a firearm safe -- you know -- you're using your bound book properly, keeping a record of transactions. They look favorably upon security systems and surveillance systems. As long as your meeting all the criteria, and something should happen, there is no repercussions from the ATF. I just -- from a -- from a stand point of -- of moral standpoint, I wouldn't want to -- to have explain myself to the ATF on a situation like that. Henzi: Thank you. That answers it. Thank you. Any other questions? Neville: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: I guess getting back to your advertising. When you have your website, is there a location that's advertised, or what is it? Is it a P.O. Box, or -- Jastren: Typically, it's -- it's Livonia. You don't put your -- put your address right out there. So people don't come to your door when you're not there. But some of the homebased FFL's do. We do not plan to do that. So on our website, it would not be listed. However, if you look on a ecommerce site, let's just say gunbroker.com or something like that, if you go to locate an FFL, sometimes it will provide you with the information. As an FFL, you can choose to not provide that. You can choose to just say Livonia, Michigan, and it will give the person a distance from where you're located, and then by appointment, they can call you. That's really our plan is to not advertise our exact location. Neville: All right. And so then, they'll learn where to go after the transaction's been completed and -- I guess -- you don't want somebody -- let's say just as -- communicating with you online. Just doing some inquires and things of that nature. Would you give them your address before or after -- you know -- you -- you -- they've cleared -- you know -- found out they're -- Jastren: If would be after we secured the sale, or that they had transferred the firearms to us. So -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 56 July 26, 2016 Neville: And then pass the background checks? Jastren: They don't pass the background check until they -- until they come to us, and we conduct the background check. But until they complete the sale from another FFL -- in some instances they might be -- if you say you lived out of state, and you were moving back to the state of Michigan, and you have move your firearms here. The legal way to do that is to transfer them another FFL. You can't just carry them across state lines. So for instance, if you got a phone call like that, obviously, you'd tell them where you were located, but that would be the person you're talking to. You're talking to someone who's already purchased a firearm, or they currently own their firearm, and they're transferring to you as a Federal Firearm Licensee. Neville: And then you provided us with the list of FFL Licensee's already -- the highlighted ones -- those are all residential businesses, or -- Jastren: That's correct. Gable: All zoned the same as we are. Neville: All right. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Fisher: Mr. Chair, can I ask one? Henzi: Mr. Fisher. Fisher: I thought you indicated earlier that you were not going to be working in your present employment very much longer. Are you going to go fulltime into this? Jastren: Due to the medical injuries that I sustained in the Marine Corp. -- I suffer from extremely bad headaches, to the point where, at times, 1 can't go to work. And it really affects my schedule. It affects my life in general. This would allow me to work at my leisure. So I could work -- if I was -- if 1 was home and I wanted to arrange an appointment, or -- I could so something like that. So currently, I live in South Lyon. My plan is to potentially to relocated to Livonia in the future. I work in Livonia. So it would allow me that leisure. Even to travel from my current home in South Lyon to be here with Chris. Now, obviously, I'm a little bit older. I don't live at home, but it's our -- it's our business opportunity to do this. So we felt that it was best here, as he's a little bit more available right now that l am, and we can kind of transition those roles. So did that answer your question? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 56 July 26, 2016 Fisher: Sure. The other thing is, is there -- right now, I understood you to say that you were going to have sort of a low classification of licensure. is there anything once you get this approval, to stop you from moving up, in terms of a classification of licensing you have? Jastren: It's the same process. So my -- my understanding is, we'd still need -- we'd need approval from the Zoning Board, and we'd need approval for the additional license. I'm not sure about the Zoning Board, but I do know, in fact, that we would, without a doubt, have to apply for a different license type and go through the entire background check process again. The Zoning Board question, you might have to answer for me. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the table. Easton: I'm Pat Easton. I live across the street from Chris. Henzi: What's your address? Easton: 35880 West Chicago, Livonia. I live exactly across the street. I've know the family for at least 30 to 20 years, and I'm speaking for their character. They're wonderful, honest, trust worthy, great people. Absolutely great people. And I feel whatever that they feel is -- I don't they do anything that would harm anybody around them. I just truly -- they've done a lot for me. I lost my husband, and without them, I probably wouldn't be living in Livonia right now because they help me so much. Henzi: Thank you. Bronson: Robert Bronson, address 35843 West Chicago. I'm approximately four houses down from them. They're on my west. I support is. Military -- thank you for your service. Jastren: Thank you. Bronson: That aside, I don't discourage someone trying to start up their own business. 1, myself, am into firearms, and have researched this a great deal, and know that there's a massive amount of record keeping and responsibility on their end. If anything ever did happen -- I mean -- it's quite consequential and detrimental to their situation. I'm for it. Thanks. Gable: Thanks, Rob. Jastren: Thank you. Henzi: Anybody else? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 56 July 26, 2016 DelFavero: I'm Donna DelFavero. I live at 29504 Bobrich, and thank you for your military service. Jastren: Thank you. DelFavero: But this is -- our community is known as a family city, and I think this kind of business belongs in a brick and mortar store in a business area, and not in a residential area. And that's my thought. Pastor: Excuse me, ma'am. DelFavero: Pardon? Pastor: What -- what part of this business is not a family oriented towards our community. DelFavero: Pardon -- no -- Pastor: What part of this business means -- is upsetting you that it's not a family business or family oriented? DelFavero: I'm just saying that it needs to be in a brick and mortar store in a business area, and not in a residential area. Pastor: So what kind of business would you like to have in -- that he could do? DelFavero: Get a brick and mortar store and take care of your business. Pastor: Are you against anybody having a business in their home? DelFavero: I live in a community that -- I'm here to support to support the community that residential area. I -- we fought a pawn shop coming into our residential area next door, and that was part of the problem. We knew guns were going to be selling, and there's going to be people coming and going, and we didn't know what kind, and we wanted to protect our community. This belongs in an area where there's not children living, or there's not elderly living. When you're in a residential area, you're living in a residential area for the peace and quiet of a regular neighborhood. A family oriented neighborhood, and this is not the place for gun sales. I'm sorry. Pastor: So are you opposed to any business being in a residential area? DelFaver: Well, I guess if this is what it's going to be, yes. Pastor: I'm not talking about gun sales. I'm talking about any business. DelFaver: Yes. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 56 July 26, 2016 Pastor: Okay. Thank you. That's all I wanted to know. DelFaver: Residential area means residential area, not a business area. Pastor: Thank you. Jastren: Thank you. Henzi: Anybody else? Longo-Dragoo: Hi. Thank you for your service, sir. My name's Linda Longo-Dragoo. live at 35845 Richland. First of all, I do want to state I do believe, and I agree to the Second Amendment, which is the right to keep and bear firearms. I do understand that you guys are -- that you have FFL, which is a Federally Licensed permit, but you're not required for anything that's over, I believe, 26 inches in length, in the state of Michigan. So are you going to primarily be carrying handguns, assault riffles, or what kind of weapons are you looking -- or firearms looking at? Henzi: It's -- it's impossible to have a record if you're asking questions. Quite frankly, that should have been done before you we were here. You can address questions through the Chair, and then they can answer. Trust me. It becomes a mess for the court reporter -- or reporter to follow. Longo-Dragoo: Sorry. Kind of new to Livonia. Henzi: No. It's fines. It happens all the time, but it's going to be a mess to try to figure out who's talking and that sort of thing. Longo-Dragoo: Okay. So would I address some of the questions of? Henzi: Okay. So your question was about the 26 -- Longo-Dragoo: Yes. Regarding -- in the state of Michigan, l believe, you do not have to have an FFL to purchase riffles or firearms that are more than 26 inches in length. So with that being said, what kind of firearms are going to be sold out of the house? Are they going to be assault riffles? Are they going to be handguns, pistols, semi -automatics? What are we looking at? Henzi: Okay. When you're finished with your -- when everyone's done talking, then we read the letters, and then I will ask them to specifically address what points you're bringing up. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 56 July 26, 2016 Longo-Dragoo: Okay. There was -- I think you did state that you weren't going to be selling any ammunition out of the location, but you will have some? That's correct, right? That's what he said. I could barely hear sitting back there so. Henzi: All right. So you want to know if he's going to sell ammunition? Longo-Dragoo: That's correct. Henzi: Okay. Longo-Dragoo: One of the questions 1 also had was, what his plan is to create a safe guard for his home and his neighbors that are surrounding his house, and the houses around him. What his responsibility would be to society? How he would handle the required State and Federal regulations of selling firearms to individuals, and making sure that there are no felons that are coming with his potential clients, which is illegal? That he'll be validating the CPL or CCW of customers, and also, his responsibility as a dealer to make sure that his customers are transporting the purchased merchandise out of our neighborhood properly? Whether it's got to be locked up or what the case may be. We do live in a single family neighborhood. It's not a commercial neighborhood. Mr. Gable lives within 300 feet of myself. 1, on the other side of me, live within 300 feet of Garfield Elementary School and the park that is adjacent. So he's within 600 feet of a elementary school and a park. Plus, Hines Park, I believe, is behind their house. So you also have that, which -- which is Wayne County Park. I don't know what the requirements are of firearms being within a certain distance of a county -- of a county park. Mr. Gable's house is probably within one mile of Plymouth Road, one mile of Wayne Road, which easily could rent a storefront, or acquire some kind of commercial space within that area to sell and distribute his firearms. Since they are running an ecommerce business, time should not matter. So if they own it, they should be able to go there all hours of the night and work -- on the weekends -- whatever the case may be. That would also help support the local retail industry in Livonia when it comes to like personal property tax for a business. So I believe supporting the community would be very good. I feel that there might be unwarranted, unnecessary, and unwelcome traffic in the neighborhood by unknown or objectionable customers. Again, if people are showing up that are his clients, maybe people that are with them could be felons and might not know. I don't want that by our children, our families, or in our neighborhood. There could be an increase in theft. Just the fact that people knowing through their advertising, creating a word of mouth -- where you got your guns, and so on -- that that could potentially put neighbors in danger, and themselves. You may be putting a security system in, you may be putting in alarm system, but it might not stop the action of the theft happening, and 1 think that's very important. One thing 1 stated is, I believe we have a responsibility as a community here in Livonia, to create a safe neighborhood for our families. And I take this very personal. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 56 July 26, 2016 I have four nephews that lived Sandy Hook, and went to Sandy Hook, and God bless them and their families, and I do whatever 1 can to try the limit the sale of firearms, or getting in the hands of the wrong people. That's my personal opinion. Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. Gable: Thanks for your questions. Henzi: Anybody else who wants to speak for or against? Ely: My name is Carol Ely, and I live at 29467 Bobrich Street in Livonia. Same place Donna lives, who was up before you. I read this and it says, seeking to perform firearms sales and distribution from a personal residence which is not allowed. Well if it's not allowed, then why would there be an exception to it? This is -- I'm reading from -- and understand why he wants to do it. I can understand that. But even though it's ecommerce, many of the presumptions -- what I could here by the way. We can't hear you at all back there. So I don't know what's the point with the microphones, if we can't hear very well. But it sounds like a lot of conjecture. Maybe we'll have one person. Maybe we'll have two. We don't know yet. And I also agree that i do not think that this is the type of business, whether it's ecommerce or not, that belongs in a residential community. And maybe somebody will explain to me, if it's already not allowed, why are we looking at it. Are we going to change an ordinance? What's going to happen here? Are we going to do -- allow one person to do, and then we'll have more people doing it? And won't set a precedent. That's all I have to say. Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Fisher, do you have a comment for that? Fisher: Well, I suppose there's always a danger of precedent, but this body has the authority to make variances from the things which are disallowed under the zoning ordinance. Ely: Have there been other things disallowed or allowed that have been of the same thing. Fisher: Well, the only one that we were able to find any record of at all, was approximately 20 years ago, there was a similar variance granted. None, to our knowledge, have been granted since. And that's why the list of addresses we were given earlier is still sort of mysterious to us. It's not clear that those people are operating legally from the City's standpoint. Ely: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 56 July 26, 2016 Longo-Dragoo: Can 1 just say something real quick? Again, I'm Linda Dragoo. When they first sat down, they said that they spoke to their neighbors. They never spoke to me. They never spoke to my neighbor, Carol. They spoke to my neighbor, Sue. I don't know if they spoke to Janice or not, but you live right there. There's -- 300 feet is not much. About six houses each side around the corner of the block. This was never ever presented to us. The first notice I got was the appeal from the City if Livonia. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else want to speak for or against the project? Churchill: My name is Colleen Churchill. 1 live at 35875 Richland Street. 1 really came her tonight -- hi. It's nice to meet you. Gable: Hi. Nice to meet you. Churchill: -- to get information. I don't have a problem with guns. I don't have ecommerce. Trust me, I'm all about ecommerce. I love Amazon. I'm a teacher. I've been a teacher for 21 years. I --- I really do have some concerns with people coming around the school. But my -- I really -- like I said, I'm kind of on the fence. I really -- I -- I -- I want to hear it out. I'm very objective. I guess my question -- I don't know -- I just thought of it. I was sitting down and I was listening so I didn't write it out to give to anybody. They have a business model. I don't think it sounds bad. I think it sounds great, and I think people are entitled to make money. If some for reason the business model doesn't pan out as it's projected, is there a way for the City to say, you know what this isn't working, and therefore kind of nullify the variance at all? Or is once give it, there's not taking it back? Henzi: I can answer that. I mean -- if it's bad. First of all, we can limit in time, and come back in a year -- three years. Number two, we can put conditions on it. The problem with that is -- depending on the type of condition, it can be difficult to enforce. Churchill: Okay. That was next question is. I can't say I'm against it. I'm just very curious how that works. Gable: Thanks for your question. Jastren: Thank you. Henzi: Anybody else, come on up? Beier: Sorry. I was in the hospital when I got the letter. So hi. So I haven't had a chance to talk to them. Henzi: Your name and address. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 56 July 26, 2016 Beier: Sorry. Dawn Beier, 35891 Richland. I'm just a couple of houses away. At first, was oh no. I don't want guns being sold in the neighborhood because it is a family neighborhood. I thought about it, and I really don't want anything sold in the neighborhood. It's very quiet in the back of the sub. We have very little -- little traffic compared to the front of the sub. I have family members in the front, and there's tons of traffic. We have very little traffic. If it was just the ecommerce part where there was no traffic coming in and out, I would have no objections to that. I'm all for people having their own companies and making money. I have nothing against guns, per say. I have a lot of family members in the military, but I do have an issue if there's going to be traffic coming in and out purchasing weapons. We don't know these people are. Even if it was Tupperware. I don't know who these people are. And we have a lot of small children, and I just don't want to see the traffic -- the increased traffic in our portion of the neighborhood. Henzi: Thank you. Gable: Thanks, Dawn. Henzi: Anybody else? Can you read the letters? Baringhaus: Sure. Letter of approval, John C. Dixon, 35867 West Chicago, (letter read). Letter of objection from William J. Schager, 35832 West Chicago, (letter read). Letter of objection, David Spender, 35851 West Chicago, (letter read). Letter of objection, Janet Malcomson, 35915 West Chicago, (letter read). Letter of approval, Patricia Easton, 35880 West Chicago, (letter read). Henzi: Is that it? Baringhaus: That's it. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Can you gentleman please explain to the audience how NICS and the background checks work. So maybe they're comfortable that felons and or undesirables will not be buying weapon from you. Jastren: Yes, sir. Gable: Sure. Jastren: So the way that the background checks work is, when you purchase a firearm - - if you walk into any firearms store, you have to pass a background check. So if you City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 56 July 26, 2016 were going to -- as a convicted felon, if you were going to try to buy from a gun store, that would be very foolish on your behalf because you wouldn't pass a background check, and you would get the firearm. And as far as security level, again it would be like robbing a bank. So if I was a convicted felon, and I was looking to rob somebody of their firearms, I would just ask some people I work with, hey do you have any guns. And then I would go over to their house and steal them because the majority of people keep their guns in a closet. They're not locked up. They're not safe. And then in addition to that, like I said, you have the element of the background check. So should that person feel that they want to buy that a firearm from you, it's a really poor choice. They're much better off trying to negotiate with somebody who doesn't know the law. Say if -- if -- you know -- Patricia had a firearm from her husband and somebody knew that. They could just say, Patricia, I'll give you a hundred dollars for that. And that would be the route that a convicted felon would try to take to obtain a firearm. They would know better than to come to a firearms dealer to obtain that. So the NICS check -- what happens is when you purchase that firearm, and you come to obtain it, your information's verified. So identification -- State of Michigan, of if you have a concealed pistol license, and then the FBI is called. So the FBI runs a background check based upon your social security number and then again proof you are who you say you are. And then they return a number that is a confirmation number that the background check has been passed, and that person is given the firearm. If they pass the background check. If they did not pass the background check, there is no exception. They do not get the firearm. They don't get anything. I hope that answered your question. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Thank you. You have the opportunity for a closing statement. There were a lot of questions that were raised, and I think that I got them down. I'll try to start in reverse. There was a question about, could you have the transfers some place other than that residence? Jastren: Per the ATF, you cannot have transfers anywhere other than your place of business. Henzi: Okay. There's a question about the 26 in rule. What kind of firearms you would sell? Can you answer that? Jastren: Any firearm is regulated in the United States. So whether it's a pistol or riffle -- the firearm that wouldn't be regulated is if it's a -- if you guys can think of a Civil War musket -- like an antique. That's the only thing that's not regulated in the United States per having and FFL. So pistols, riffles, shotguns, everything under the sun. Even if you're building your own firearm, there are -- the receiver portion of the firearm is consider the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 56 July 26, 2016 weapon. So that -- I mean -- that piece of metal can't even fire bullets, that has to go through an FFL. So really, anything that you would consider a firearm has to come through us. Henzi: Okay. There's a question. Could you answer whether you would sell ammunition? Jastren: We will be selling ammunition. Like I said, it's really something to have on hand as a supplement to our consumer. If our consumer comes there and say hey, I'd like a box of ammunition. That's really the extent of it. It's we're going to have a pallet of ammunition sitting in the garage selling to people, if that makes sense. Henzi: There was a question. What is your plan to safeguard the premises? Jastren: So once again, like I eluded with the robbing the bank analogy. It's -- it's really the same situation here. So not only is there a level of deterrence from knowing that somebody who has a Federal Firearm License, obviously, keeps their stuff locked up. But in addition to that, as far as security measures -- like I talked about earlier, we do have an alarm system in place that automatically notifies the police if there's any alarm that goes off. And in addition to that, also a surveillance system. If they do make it through both of those, then they have to make it through a couple inches of steel that's bolted through floor joists. So it -- it would really take some serious to -- to get those firearms. Henzi: You may have answered this, but is your responsibility to society to making sure felons don't appear at -- at your residence? Jastren: So like I -- like I just talked about. I mean -- felons -- it's -- it's a known a issue for them. They know they can't buy a firearm from a Federal Firearm Licensee. So they -- my -- my objection to that, obviously, not from a moral standpoint, from a licensee standpoint, I cannot provide a felon with a firearm. They have to pass that background check. So that just flat out wouldn't happen. Henzi: Do you or how would --and or how would you validate a customer's CPL licensure or otherwise validate the ability to purchase? Jastren: So typically you for at least one form of identification. If they have a CPL, you get two forms of identification. You're verifying that that person is who they say are, or appear as they are on the -- the identification, and that the identification is valid. And in addition to that, that they're providing you all the information that matches what's on the identification card in addition to the social security number, if they so choose. City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 56 July 26, 2016 Henzi: What responsibility do you have to ensure that your customers are properly transferring the firearm away from the residence? Jastren: So the only responsibility that you have in the state of Michigan is to provide a trigger lock. So you provide a trigger lock with every firearm, or a breach lock. So one of the two. It either has to go around the trigger guard or it has through the breach. So as you supply that firearm to them, that gun is locked up. Henzi: And then lastly, are there prohibitions from having and FFL nears schools or parks? Jastren: There are not. Henzi: I think that was all the questions. Is there anything else you'd like to say in closing? Jastren: So I think there's a -- a great deal of concern, and I've heard some concern about, not only businesses, but firearms in general. And -- you know -- in the United States there's millions of people that have ecommerce businesses that run out of their homes, and -- you know -- for instance, I'm sure everyone in here has bought something off of Ebay, or most of us, right? One of the options is to pick up that item from a local pick up. I mean -- it's really the same thing we're talking about here. The same business model. Now we're talking about firearms. And like 1 eluded to earlier, firearms are highly regulated, highly restrict. So the illusion that you would draw these -- you know -- bad people to buy firearms is -- is really nonsense in my opinion. You know -- if -- again -- if was a bad person, I would be going to Joe from work that doesn't know what he has, and paying him a hundred dollars for a shotgun. And I would be trying to obtain a firearm that way because I know that I cannot buy a firearm from a Federal Firearm Licensee. I see the -- like I said, the average consumer is the 30 -40 -year-old guy that's got his kid. That they want to go hunting, or they want to go shoot sporting clays -- you know -- or -- or whomever that may be, but I see it as the law abiding citizen. That's -- that's who 1 envision my -- my client being. And like it said, there's a huge amount of regulation associated with that, as we so discussed. So 1 feel like we've -- we meet that qualification per the ATF, and we're asking for the Zoning Board's approval. Do you have anything to add? Gable: No. I think you covered it all. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 56 July 26, 2016 Pastor: Can you also tells these people, when you get a transfer in, it's your choice to have someone come in, or how you plan on bringing these people in once they're transferred in, or their weapon comes in. That you're going to do it by appointment, or are you just going to have them come in whenever they whenever they want. Jastren: So the -- the plan is, and we've -- we've outlined the business model to the ATF, is that we would do it by appointment only. So we have standard hours of operation that we have to have, but every firearm transfer that was conducted, that person would transfer the firearm to us from whomever they purchased the firearm from -- even if they purchased it from us -- and they would call us to arrange an appointment to set it up and meet us. It wouldn't be a hey somebody's coming to knock on my door at God awful hour of the night to -- to pick up a gun. You know -- that's not the case here. Henzi: Would --- would you be willing to restrict the hours so that it's not -- you know -- after -- I don't know -- nine o'clock or before -- Jastren: Yes. Henzi: -- eight in the morning, or -- Jastren: Our hours are currently already meet those criteria. Henzi: What are -- I'm sorry -- what are your proposed hours? Gable: We were Mondays 9-5 and I believe it was -- it's been so long since we filled out that app. I believe it was Tuesday through Friday just -- it was just like an hour in the evening or something like that -- 5-6, and then Saturday 9 -noon. I believe is what we put on the ATF application. Jastren: So the ATF requires that you have hours of operation listed. Those are the hours of operation that you're available by appointment. It doesn't necessarily mean that the front door is open, come on in. So there's definitely a differentiating factor there. Gable: We have no interest in doing business outside of normal business hours. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. I'll close the public portion of the case, and being the Board's comments with Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I hear the -- I hear the pleas of the community, but in the same respect, I think this is something than can fit as long as the Petitioners do what they are claiming they will do in operation hours. I know a little bit about this type of business. 1 happen to have a gun shop in one of my buildings that happened to get broken into this year. But that was a smash and grab, and I don't think that those type of people are going to a FFL that City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 56 July 26, 2016 works out of a house. All three -- actually all four FFL's that got hit were brick and mortar businesses. So I think I can -- I think I can approve this petition. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: There's nine resident FFL's in Livonia based on the list that you provided. If you look at the total list, which includes businesses, it's 47, and that's within a 36 square mile area. I guess the question I have to ask is, how much is enough? I think we're very well represented with this type of business. Perhaps, overly represented, as well. Well, I do sense some support in the neighborhood, I really don't sense a general level of comfort with it. Base on that, I'm not inclined to support the variance. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: First of all, thank you for your service. l really appreciate that. Jastren: Thank you. Coppola: Second of all, I'm not a very strong supporter of the Second Amendment. I think ownership of firearms and sale of firearms is -- is -- is fully protected by the Constitution, and I have no issues with the business. I think where I come down on this is -- you know -- setting aside the type of business. It is -- it is a retail, and retail business brings in -- in traffic, not only -- and the type of business you have -- not only traffic to -- to -- to people to pick-up the product they purchased, but now you've got increase traffic in regards to delivery trucks and other types of -- of traffic. This sits in the back of a subdivision. So generally, I think where this situates, it's probably pretty quiet. Most of the people that drive passed, are people that probably live close to you are trying to get to their homes. I -- I -- I -- you know -- I really think really highly of people that want to start businesses, want to be entrepreneurs and take that risk. I just don't think retail businesses belong in residential neighborhoods, and -- and -- and for that fact, I would be opposed to this. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: Well, I -- first I have to commend Mr. Gable and Mr. Jastren. They're very articulate and knowledgeable concerning their business model and the industry that they want to get into. I think they've answered the questions --- the questions posed to them straight forward and very knowledgeable. First, there are never any guarantees against nothing bad happening or -- the thing that -- I guess -- comes back -- that I come back to is of the list -- they got the nine reported residences that are FFL licensees, but Mr. Fisher indicates that unable to find how these businesses -- you know -- because if they're in residences, they would have needed to obtain a variance in order to -- conduct that City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 56 July 26, 2016 business, and there seems to be no paper trail about that. I guess my thought is that, perhaps, by tabling the petition so that we could try find out more information relative to whether these are, in fact, residences, and did they acquire a variance, when they acquired that variance because -- I mean -- that would all play into the -- the uniformed enforcement of the request for a variance. So I think that's a very critical and important piece of information that we should have in order to decide intelligently and fairly on this petition. Henzi: Well, Mr. Neville makes a valid point. I -- l will say this -- I mean -- if I -- if I had to vote tonight -- I mean -- it depends on what the motion is. I would have to vote no. I think the Petitioners were fantastic in their presentation. Very knowledgeable. You enlightened me. I really have no problem with the type of business. So to me, it doesn't matter what you're selling, it's just that you're selling something retail. I don't think that the type of customer that you proposed to have is a dangerous person. I think they're very responsible gun owners and gun purchasers. I think they're no different than anyone -- it's a niche market -- I mean -- your neighbor could be having an ecommerce business selling Tupperware, or clothing, or something like that. Here's ultimately my bottom line is. This is a unique ordinance that says you cannot do it. It doesn't -- it doesn't talk about gun sales. It talks about anything -- any retail operation where people come to buy products -- you're not to do it. That's unlike a lot of the other variances -- variance requests that you will hear, including those tonight. In my opinion, because of the Amazon effect, this is something that City Council should legislate, and decide whether in our community it's okay to have a niche business like this, where you're only going to have - - you know -- maybe two sales a week, or five sales a week. I -- I think that's their call, not ours because to go along with Mr. Neville's point, if this is the Board that makes that decision, then we run into this situation where we grant one, and then we would have to grant them all. That's my position. But having -- you know -- if you want to table it to -- to learn the other information, or to allow for the other Board Members to be here, we can do that too. I'm fine with tabling it. Neville: I move to table it. For that very reason to get more information. Pastor: Support. Henzi: So we'll call it motion to table it -- do you want to elaborate one more time -- to get more information? Neville: Well, I would move to table your request for a variance so that we could find specifically more information relative to the other addresses where -- it's proper that they are residents -- because we need to find out how they acquired that variance. When they acquired that variance. So I think that would be an important piece of information for us City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 56 July 26, 2016 to -- to find out. And by having, perhaps, the full body of the Board here, that would be fair to have input from everybody who's eligible to make that decision. So that's the reason I would move to table it. Pastor: I'll support. Upon Motion by Neville and supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO, 2016-07-53: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Christopher Gable, 35875 West Chicago, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to perform firearm sales and distribution from a personal residence which is not allowed. The property is located on the South side of West Chicago (35875), between Arthur and West end (dead end), Lot. No. 125-02-0587-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 3.08, "District Regulations," and Section 4.02 (g), 3, 9, "Permitted Uses," be tabled to allow the Board to get more information about other federal firearms licensees in residential districts and to permit the matter to be heard by a full Board. ROLL CALL VOTE AYES: Neville, Pastor, Baringhaus, Coppola, Henzi NAYS; None ABSENT: Schepis, Klisz Henzi: So this is tabled, which actually is a benefit to you because if you come back, you don't have to pay again. Jastren: Okay. Gable: Okay. Henzi: And, like Mr. Neville said, we will endeavor to get more information about these other businesses that are operating, and how is it that they're operating, and that could be persuasive for or against your case. So I said earlier that the earliest meeting looks like it might September 13th. But if you just call the -- the Inspection Department and ask for Marilyn. She'll help you get scheduled. Gable: Okay. Do we need to reschedule with her? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 56 July 26, 2016 Henzi: Yeah. Gable: Okay. We need to see her. Okay. Henzi: Just call. You probably talked to her before. Gable: And you said Marilyn? Henzi: Marilyn, yeah. Gable: Yeah, I spoke to her. Henzi: Thank you, gentleman. Jastren: Thank you, ladies and gentleman. Gable: Thanks for hearing us. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 56 July 26, 2016 APPEAL CASE NO. 2096-07-54; An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Charles Judd, 8909 Crown, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to erect a six foot tali wood privacy fence upon a corner lot resulting in excess fence height and the fence extending to the front of the home. Privacy fences cannot extend beyond the rear line of the home toward the front line. Privacy Fence Height: Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the West side of Crown (8909), between Northfield and Dover, Lot. No. 12806-0115-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance Section 15.44.090A and B, "Residential district regulations." Henzi: Mr. Hanosh, anything to add to this case? Hanosh: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table. Good evening. Judd: How you doing? Charles Judd and Brian Judd, 8909 Crown. Henzi: Okay. Go ahead and tell us about the proposed fence. Judd: Well the existing fence that was there was a chain link fence. It's been there for as long as I can remember and the neighbors can remember. It goes from the front of the to the side -- the sidewalk. It does have the one reveal -- you know -- off the sidewalk, and goes back towards the -- the garage. We had to take down a couple of trees that were in there and they were growing through the fence. So the fence had to come down with the trees. The biggest thing we need is more privacy. The people walk by. They're constantly -- I mean -- we have a ton of traffic. One of the biggest things is dogs. Dogs go by -- our dogs in the house -- you know -- go crazy barking. If they're outside, they're -- you know -- it's just a commotion. We have no privacy. We can't sit out there. We can't -- without -- not that we don't like our neighbors, but we just don't -- we have nothing -- we have no privacy back there because it's a corner lot. And a five-foot fence -- everybody still looks over. They can still see into the backyard. They can still everything that's going on. You know-- nobody even likes to lay out there in the backyard on the lounge chairs, or sunbathe, or do anything because everybody that keep coming by. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 56 July 26, 2016 Henzi: Anything else? Judd: No. Henzi: Thanks. Any questions for the Petitioner? Coppola: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: How -- how long have you owned the home? Judd: Twenty years -- Coppola: Twenty years. Judd: It was before that that the fence was up. Coppola: You had a -- you had a chain link fence which you could see through? Judd: Yes. Coppola: So just out of curiosity why -- why -- I know the fence had to come down so you just decided since you had to buy a new fence, you're just going -- you're going to do a privacy fence? Judd: Well a lot -- a lot of it was an issue with money too. I mean -- to erect a whole new fence is expensive, and we just couldn't afford it. Couldn't do it then. We're in a position now where can. We couldn't take down the trees years ago either. So we had three trees moved off the property. You know -- roots were growing everywhere. There -- you know -- sidewalk has been replaced three times. The street has been replaced because of it -- locus trees. The dreaded locus trees in Livonia. They're everywhere. So a lot of that is that issue. We've always wanted the privacy fence. Just couldn't do it because of the monetary. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: On the side of the house you have the fence basically on the corner of the house. Have you considered moving it back? I don't know why you're -- why would still want to maintain the original location? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 56 July 26, 2016 Judd: Because that's a lot of our backyard. If we move it back, we'll lose have of our backyard. And with the dog area, that's where they go -- you know -- so that it's not back in the area where we walk. Baringhaus: To bring the fence further back, like towards the side door, have you considered that, or would you consider that? Judd: Well -- I mean -- we could, but we'd still lose a lot of that property that -- you know -- in our backyard. That's kind of where the dogs would be because that's where they go out. They go out the side door. They come out there. And that's where the existing one was. I just -- you know -- it was just to put back up where -- where it had been, and we've been used to it. Baringhaus: Thank you. Judd: You're welcome. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I don't remember looking that hard, but is the rest of your property fenced in? Judd: Yes. There's a wood privacy fence between me and the neighbor next door. Pastor: Okay. Judd: And then there's a chain link fence in the back of our property between -- you know -- we have garages -- my garage and the neighbor behind us, that's his garage. So his house is actually on the next street over. Back of our houses butt up to each other and there's a chain link fence there. Pastor: But you're not proposing to put any privacy fence there. Judd: There's no issue with that there. It would just be like -- if I was living between two neighbors, I would -- you know -- there's nobody that's walking by constantly. When they walk, they walk in the front of my house, which normally is they're looking in your front window or your driveway, but behind my house, they're not really looking. It's just all that traffic that walks down the sidewalk, and all the dogs, and everybody else that look into the yard. Pastor: So are you more concerned about the dogs or the just people -- just general people? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 56 July 26, 2016 Judd: Just more concerned about the people. Everybody looking in. No privacy. My 22 -year-old daughter lays back there with friends, she doesn't want to lay outside. I mean -- with the neighborhood and with the people in this day and age, I don't want people looking in on her for her safety too. It just makes everybody uncomfortable to be back there. We have patio furniture we never look -- we never sit back there. Ask the neighbors. Pastor: Do you -- you have a side door. Do you have any other doors that go out the back of your house? Judd: There's a door wall. Pastor: There's a door wall on that piece of concrete at the back of your house, or on the side of your house? Judd: The concrete is behind the house. Pastor: Okay. Do you let your dogs out that way? Judd: No. They go out the side. Pastor: Do you have more than one dog? I said dogs. Judd: Two dogs. Pastor: Two dogs. Large dogs, small dogs? Judd: Golden and a small -- medium -- small dog, or whatever it is. Pastor: Okay. Thank you. Judd: You're welcome. Henzi: Any other questions? Neville: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: To follow up to what Mr. Pastor was ask -- asking you. On the north side of your property, did determine when I was out there, is that a privacy fence, a chain link fence, or -- Judd: A privacy fence. Neville: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 56 July 26, 2016 Judd: A wooden privacy fence. Neville: To the north -- north side? Judd: The north side of my house is a privacy fence. Neville: Okay. Judd: From the neighbor's --- I think they put it up before -- it was up there when we moved in. Neville: And how far, 1 guess to the east or towards the front, their house and your house, does that privacy fence extend? Judd: It extends probably 15 -- I think from our back of our house to where it ends is probably 15 feet -- 12 feet. Neville: Okay. Judd: Fifteen feet. Neville: And with -- was there shrubbery or hedges or something on the outside of that fence? Judd: There was. There's something now. Kind of like a shrub growing. Some type of a tree or bush. Neville: Okay. All right. Thank you. Judd: You're welcome. Henzi: Any other questions? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Henzi: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: In terms of trees located on your property, I think you have one on the boulevard. Was there a tree along the fence, or is that a tree you had to take to remove the fence? You made an earlier statement on that. Judd: No -- the -- the only tree that was -- we had two trees in our -- on the fence line. They grew so big. They grew through the fence, or into the sidewalk. The ones that were on the boulevard on the south side were already taken down by the City years ago. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 56 July 26, 2016 Baringhaus: Okay. Judd: There is one, but it's out in front of the house on the street, and then the third tree we had was actually a weed, they called it. It grew so tall. It was into the house. It would like pushing the foundation. So we took all three trees down. Baringhaus: So at this point -- Judd: There's one left out on the boulevard on the -- what would be the east side on Crown. Baringhaus: So at this point to replace the fence there wouldn't be any need to remove any trees, at this point? Judd: No. Baringhaus: Thank you Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up. Ladach: Good evening. I'm Mike Ladach, 36118 Nees. I live in the property to the east of the Judd's. I'm on the corner lot immediately behind them. We share the chain link fence between the two houses and the two garages, so to speak. And I understand his concerns with privacy. We face some of the same issues the way our house is situated. Our house is Hess, but his house is on Crown, but we both face Northfield. A lot of the times, even when my wife and I are sitting in the yard, it's like we're -- we're on stage for the rest of the neighborhood, at times. I don't feel -- we don't feel we have privacy there. Things of that nature. I am in favor of -- you know -- Brian constructing the fence. Him and I have talked about this for probably going on for three or four years now. Some of his plans -- I am aware of them. I support them. And -- and dealing with the variance with the -- you know -- six-foot fence -- yes he does have two dogs. One dog is large. One dog I don't think is going to get very large. When dogs come by, I think they do want to play with the dogs. And the dogs going by -- they will jump up on the fence at times. Sometimes scaring people, particularly little children going by on the sidewalk, but the dogs are very playful. We -- I just lost my train of thought. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Judd: I do that too. Old age. Sorry, Mike. Ladach: So yeah, we do support doing this, and we understand the reasons why. The privacy, the dogs. We get along just fine. Even with my -- we don't have any pets, but - - you know -- my wife does interact with the dogs there. And when our nephews come City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 56 July 26, 2016 over, they're constantly interacting with the dogs. So the dogs are not an issue, but they are very playful. Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? Seeing no one else coming forward, can you read the letters? Baringhaus: Sure. Letter of approval. Winton and Dawn Crawford, 8859 Crown Street, (letter read). Letter of approval. Ronald A. Lackey, 36143 Northfield, (letter read). Letter of approval from Maggie Graham, 36095 Hees. Letter of approval from Darlene McMullen, 36074 Hees, (letter read). Another letter of approval from Cherie Broccardo, 36139 Northfield, (letter read). Letter of approval from Constance J. Flynn, 36053 Hees, (letter read). Letter of approval, Jean A. Schubert, 8835 Crown, (letter read). Letter of approval from Diana Gale, 36127 Northfield, (letter read). That's it. Henzi: Anything you want to say in closing, Mr. Judd? Judd: No, I don't think so. Henzi: Thanks. Judd: Thank you. Henzi: We'll close the public portion of the case, and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: I feel that -- that a case has been made for the additional one -foot height of the fence. Not only from the Petitioner -- from -- also, from the neighbors as well. They see the need and they support it. I'll support the variance as well. Judd: Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Coppola. Coppola: Yeah. I think you've generalized -- I think they've shown a hardship -- I mean the backyard is in view for the whole neighborhood. So a little bit of privacy would be nice. The only -- the only thing that I would -- would suggest is that because it's now -- compared to a chain link fence -- it's now a privacy fence, bringing it back from the front of the house -- you know -- I don't know the exact footage here. I'd say somewhere between eight and ten feet, more towards the door. So it doesn't look -- you know -- kind of -- kind of like -- like a prison enclosure. So there's a little bit of -- it doesn't look as bad. That's my look at it. Henzi: Mr. Neville. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 56 July 26, 2016 Neville: I agree a hundred percent what Mr. Coppola, relative to the need has been established. I believe -- I too, would suggest, perhaps -- my thought was maybe in the neighborhood of two to five-foot setback from the front of the house, but we're moving it back so it doesn't look like it's an enclosure, or fort, or something of that nature. And it might just give it a little bit more of an aesthetic presentation. So moving -- I guess that would be that east portion of the privacy fence -- moving it just the matter of a couple of feet or so. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yes, I can support this case. He's got overwhelming support of his neighbors. I can agree with bring it back partially on the front of the property. So I'll be in support. Henzi: 1, too, will support it. You definitely presented a hardship, and the neighbor's going to be looking right gave me the most empathetic support. So hopefully we can find a compromise as to the condition. So floor's open motion. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Upon Motion by Pastor and supported by Neville, it was: RESOLVED: CASE NO. 2016-07-54: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Charles ,Judd, 8909 Crown, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to erect a six foot tall wood privacy fence upon a corner lot resulting in excess fence height and the fence extending to the front of the home. Privacy fences cannot extend beyond the rear line of the home toward the front line. Privacy Fence Height: Allowed: 5 ft. Proposed: 6 ft. Excess: 1 ft. The property is located on the West side of Crown (8909), between Northfield and Dover, Lot. No. 128-06-0115-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance Section 15.44.090A and B, "Residential district regulations," be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 56 July 26, 2016 6. The uniqueness requirement is met because this property does not allow privacy on the side yard. 7. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner due to the fact that there is no privacy for the family and the dogs could pose safety issues. 8. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance due to the fact the Petitioner had overwhelming support from the neighbors. 9. The Board received nine letters of approval and zero objection letters from neighboring property owners. 10. The property is classified as "low density residential" in the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the Petitioner move the fence back from the front corner of the house to the concrete slab. Pastor: That he move the fence back from the front corner of his house to -- to the front corner of his door, halfway. So I'm here to propose -- I'm going to guess it's eight -- eight feet back, approximately. So if you take your corner of your house and where your side door is -- if it's 20 feet, move the fence back 10 feet, and that's where it will go. Judd: Okay. What we do have -- there's a slab of cement, and like I can move it back some -- like when he was saying like one to two to three feet -- but there's a slab coming off the house, and a flowerbed, and everything off that do. So -- l mean -- I can move it back -- Pastor: Back to the slab -- then -- Judd: I can give you a reveal back. Pastor: Then I'll say back to the slab. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 56 July 26, 2016 Judd: You know what I mean. Pastor: That's fine. ,Judd: So that it does have some reveal of the front of the house. Pastor: That's fine. So back to the slab. Judd: That would be great. I could probably appreciate that. Pastor: Okay. Henzi: Is there a support? Neville: Support. Henzi: Motion to approve with conditions by Mr. Pastor, support by Mr. Neville. Any discussion? None. Please call the roll. AYES: Pastor, Neville, Baringhaus, Coppola, Henzi NAYS; None ABSENT. Schepis, Klisz Henzi: Variance is granted with that one condition. Judd: Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 56 July 26, 2016 APPEAL CASE NO. 2016-07-55; An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Sandra Bush (Trzaskos), 35980 Orangelawn, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to construct a detached garage resulting in excess garage area. Also, the proposed garage is exceeding 20% of the area of the rear yard. Detached Garage Area: 20% Area of the Rear Yard Allowed: 660 sq. ft. Allowed: 837 sq. ft. Proposed: 900 sq. ft. Proposed: 900 sq. ft. (21.5%) Excess: 240 sq. ft. Excess: 63 sq. ft. ( 1.5%) The property is located on the east side of Orangelawn (35980), between Parkdale and Arthur, Lot. No. 125-02-0537-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 2.10 (5), "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms," and Section 18.24, "Residential Accessory Building." Henzi: Mr. Hanosh, anything to add to this case? Hanosh: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table. Bush: Hello. Henzi: Good evening. Bush: I'm Michael Bush. Henzi: Same address? Bush: Yes. I'm husband. Henzi: Okay. Go ahead and tell us about the garage you propose. Bush: Okay. I've got a unique shaped lot, like almost triangular. Kind of limits the usability of the back portion of it. The current 1953 built single car garage is in poor condition. Very small for our needs. My owned it before we were married. After I -- we were married I -- there's not enough room in the current garage for classic cars that I own. I currently keep those at my mother's garage in Dearborn. My mother's aging and we predict in the next year or so we'll probably need to sell her house, and we're planning to have her move in with us. She's still capable and able to drive her own vehicle. So 1'd like to build a garage capable of housing my classic cars, my recreational equipment -- ATV -- motorcycle -- utility trailer, other recreational equipment City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 56 July 26, 2016 as well as the other vehicles we have and storage space. The garage we're proposing is only 20 -- 24 feet wide and deep. So we could push it back into that triangular shaped lot to utilize that space. And it wouldn't be it wouldn't appear that larger from the front of the house or from the -- from the street traffic, only appearing as like a 24 - foot wide garage. And the height would not exceed the 16 -foot -- if I were to use a utility shed, it wouldn't give the type of storage I would need for additional large vehicles. So - - and there are some other houses in the -- in the area with a variance for a very large garage with a smaller size lot than -- than mine. Henzi: Can you tell us about the building materials. Bush: I could refer that to my builder here, if that's -- Hall: Jim Hall, 14467 Fairway. It's a framed garage -- 2x4 walls, 8 -foot tall with pre- engineered attic trusses. Storage trusses for the main part of the garage -- the -- the 600 -square -foot portion. So that he can have pull stairs so he can get up and have access to the loft upstairs for storage. And then the rear roof would consist of just standard web trusses -- no storage -- just -- it's only 15 feet wide so it would be kind of tough to get storage up there. So mainly just storage. And we're staying near the height limit so. Henzi: And then can you tell us about shingles -- siding? Hall: Yeah -- yeah. Dimensional shingles -- asphalt shingles -- Owens Corning -- viny siding -- aluminum trim -- vinyl soffit-- steel -- steel door-- overheard door-- steel service door and -- Henzi: Shingles and siding to match the house? Hall: Yeah, exactly. Well it's brick house going to stick with the look of the house. blend right in with the neighborhood. Henzi: Any questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. So it's got aluminum trim on it. So we're It's not going to be anything flashy. It will Pastor: What kind of cars do you plan storing there, and how many? Bush: I have two classic cars -- 1970 Dodge Super Bee. It's a pretty large vehicle. A 1993 Mustang. I consider a new classic. And then my wife's car. Probably alternate that -- between that -- my truck -- my mother's car -- whatever needed to be put in there. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 56 July 26, 2016 I plan to take advantage of a lease at work for a electric vehicles that they lease. So that's my reasoning for asking for a -- I don't think I need to ask, but -- my intention to put a electric charge station in the garage for 220 volt for a electric vehicle. So that would be a safe place to charge, rather than have the charging station outdoors somewhere on the house, or somewhere accessible to whoever might walk up. Pastor: So you're going to put 200 -amp panel -- what size panel in that garage? Bush: A 60 -amp panel. Pastor: 60 -am panel. The 220 was -- how many amps does that car take -- charge? Bush: I think they recommend like 50. Pastor: The front of this garage is going to have storage above, is that what I heard? Hall: Correct. Bush: Yes. Pastor: Do you have a basement in your house? Bush: Yes. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Seeing no one in the audience, are there letters? Baringhaus: Yes. Letter of approval from Anne Rohde, (letter read). Letter of approval from Keith Wells, 35985 Orangelawn, (letter read). Letter of approval, Sara Bowman, 35973 Orangelawn Street, (letter read). Letter of approval from James A. Elwin, (letter read). Letter of objection from Ed and Nancy Schulz, 35904 Parkdale, (letter read). Henzi: Mr. Bush, anything you want to say in response, or in closing? Bush: Just that if you look at some of the pictures from above, you see that the surrounding neighbors -- it's really not that visible from their backyards due to their own garages, and out buildings, and trees, and what not. There's only a very few that would see most of the structure. Henzi: Anything else? Thank you. I'll close the public portion of the case, and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Coppola. Coppola: I definitely -- I looked at the lot shape and size and I can see the difficulty of trying to -- to get a larger garage, and even if it was relatively within the size or City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 56 July 26, 2016 limitations without being considered access. I think they've shown a hardship in the sense they need more space. They've had support from close neighbors, and those that are directly impacted. The one's behind that would have seen -- or next door that would have seen these, have not responded. So I will take that as as affirmative than a negative. So from that perspective, while I think it's a little large and a little large for the space, I think I can be in support. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: I agree. I, too, would be in -- in support of the request of the request for the variance. It is a unique lot. So it present hardships in of it itself, and I think you've established a need for it. I think whether it was you or your wife that put the package together did a really good job. The aerial photos and the answers to the questions of the petition, I would be in full support of the granting of the request of the variance. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I will not be in support of this. I think this garage is way too big for this piece of property. We normally grant garages this large on much larger lots. This lot is extremely small for this size garage. I just -- I just don't see any -- anyway -- you'd be the biggest garage in the neighborhood by your aerial photo. So there's no way I can be in support of this. Henzi: I have to agree with Mr. Pastor. I mean -- 1 would certainly get more than 660, but 900 would be far and away the biggest garage in the neighborhood on one of the smallest pieces of property. If there's room for compromise, I look for it. I recognize you -- perhaps if we had no out buildings and we found some middle ground, otherwise I would like to see it tabled. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus hasn't had -- Henzi: I'm sorry -- it's late. Baringhaus: I understand. Yeah, basically I agree with my colleagues. I think it's a very challenging piece of property, but at the same time I do see their need for space with the addition of the car and vehicles like that. I think they -- actually I think they did a very nice design. A couple of things going for them. The shape of the property sort of diminishes the size of the building from the street. Also, the front -- the building front's City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 56 July 26, 2016 very nicely on the street, and then the storage facility behind it, again, gives it a nice sort of clean look. So based on that, I would support it. Henzi: Okay. Floor's open for motion. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Upon Motion by Pastor and supported by Neville, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2096-07-55: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Sandra Bush (Trzaskos), 35980 Orangelawn, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to construct a detached garage resulting in excess garage area. Also, the proposed garage is exceeding 20% of the area of the rear yard. Detached Garage Area: 20% Area of the Rear Yard Allowed: 660 sq. ft. Allowed: 837 sq. ft. Proposed: 900 sq. ft. Proposed: 900 sq. ft. (21.5%) Excess: 240 sq. ft. Excess: 63 sq. ft. (1.5%) The property is located on the east side of Orangelawn (35980), between Parkdale and Arthur, Lot. No. 125-02-0537-000, R--1 Zoning District. Rejected by the inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 2.10 (5), "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms," and Section 18.24, "Residential Accessory Building" be tabled to allow the Petitioner to be able to take into account the Board's comments, and be heard by a full Board. ROLL CALL VOTE AYES: Pastor, Neville, Baringhaus, Coppola, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: Schepis, Klisz Henzi: So it's been tabled. It really is a courtesy to you. You might get the votes with two people missing. You don't have to change your plan, or you could radically change it. We just ask you take into consideration our comments. So the deadline for the September 13 meeting is August 19th. So you've got to call Marilyn before August 19th. Thanks. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 56 July 26, 2016 Bush: Thank you. - Neville: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Neville. Neville: Motion to adjourn. Coppola: Are there minutes? Henzi: No minutes. Pastor: Support. Henzi: Motion to adjourn my Mr. Neville, support by Mr. Pastor. All in favor, say aye. Board Members: Aye. Henzi: We're adjourned. There being no further business to come before thel.Bo rd, the meeting was adjourned at 9:12 p.m. tt Renzi, Chairman L Ji Barin haus, Secretary /ban City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 56 of 56 July 26, 2016