HomeMy WebLinkAbout2012-03-06
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 55 March 6, 2012
MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman
Craig Pastor, Vice Chairman
Toni Aloe
Sam Caramagno
Ed Duggan
Betsy McCue
MEMBERS ABSENT: Robert Sills
OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney
Dennis DeMeyer, City Inspector
Helen Mininni, Court Reporter
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules
of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and
address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are
made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that
appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The
decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following
the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four
decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or
to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7)
member Board. Six (6) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if
anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary
then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated
their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all
interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 45
persons present in the audience.
By a show of hands, could you raise your hand if you are here for the Trestain case,
which is requested to house goats in the yard. Okay. It is pretty overwhelming. There
has been a request by one of the Petitioners to go first because the first two matters are
going to be relatively quick. So, I think that is what we will do. So, the first one is Gary
Smith.
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
CITY OF LIVONIA
MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING HELD MARCH 6, 2012
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 55 March 6, 2012
(7:00 #1/25)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-03-04: Gary Smith, 14170 Cardwell, Livonia, MI 48154,
seeking to construct a rear family room addition, resulting in excess lot coverage.
Lot Coverage
Allowed: 25.0% (1,800 sq. ft.)
Proposed: 30.4% (2,186 sq. ft.)
Excess: 5.4% ( 386 sq. ft.)
The property is located on the east side of Cardwell (14170) between Perth and
Bentley.
Henzi: To the Inspection Department, anything to add to this case?
DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time, Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Any questions for Dennis? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come
forward? Good evening.
Petitioner: Good evening. Gary K. Smith, me and my wife would like to plan this and
this is my contractor. There are really two reasons we want the extension. As you can
see, I use a cane. I have had three artificial joint replacements. I’ve got a cart I’m
supposed to be using and I need more room in the one level because I cannot use my
basement and the basement did have a family get together room down there. Part of
the contractor thing is I’ve got to make sure the floor is level going out because the cart
and the rest of them heading into my direction unfortunately is going the wrong way.
So that’s the main reason why I want the room. Economically, I cannot sell the house
and buy another house. Can’t do it. We’re looking at 50, 60 thousand dollars for a
house. So, that’s why we are putting in for the extension. It’s just one floor. It’s one
room and it’s going to be heated and it’s really not going to take up much that’s not
already there in the backyard. It’s not going to interfere too much.
Henzi: I have a couple questions for you. Is it going to go on an existing slab, to you or
the contractor?
Contractor: No, it will be on a foundation.
Henzi: Then my next question is can you tell us about the building materials that you are
going to use?
Contractor: It will be framed per code, I believe it’s 2 x 6 walls, stick frame. There will
not be any truss system or anything. It will be a 3-sided hip roof to match the existing
roofline that’s there, vinyl siding, vinyl windows, fully insulated. We are also going to
insulate the rest of the home and bring it up to current code as well.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 55 March 6, 2012
Henzi: Okay. Siding and shingles to match what exists?
Contractor: Yes, correct.
Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner?
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Is the home brick all the way around now?
Contractor: Yes, but the garage is not.
Aloe: The back is brick, too? Is the back brick, too?
Contractor: Yes.
Aloe: Okay. Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? I have one. If you begin construction would you be able to
salvage any of that brick from the rear of the house?
Contractor: Yeah, we could. There wouldn’t be enough obviously to do the whole
addition.
Henzi: Maybe up to the knee wall or something?
Contractor: If the homeowner - if you guys decide that’s what you like, then we can
certainly do that.
Henzi: Okay. Any other questions?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: With your overage on your property, your coverage, it looks like you have
a pretty good size garage. What do you use the shed for? Do you have a shed in the
backyard?
Petitioner: Yeah.
Caramagno: What do you use the shed for? It looks like you have a good size garage.
Petitioner: Just lawn mowers and bicycles. The garage, unfortunately I don’t get to ride
any more, it has three motorcycles in it.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 55 March 6, 2012
Caramagno: Is that right?
Petitioner: Yeah, my wife has a Harley Davidson trike. I have a bike that I put 50 miles
on in the last two years. I’ve got my fingers crossed I can get back on one sometime,
but that’s what is in the garage basically.
Caramagno: And the shed is full of what?
Petitioner: Bicycles, lawn mowers, garden tools, things like that.
Caramagno: Okay. When I drove by today, I noticed the trailer in the yard. What
happens to the trailer when you put the addition on? The trailer is – the way it is kind of
pushed back into the backyard.
Petitioner: It will sit like it normally does in front of, you know, like right there in front of
the garage. Either that or I will take it back to the storage site.
Caramagno: That’s all I got.
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience that wants
to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the table. I see no one coming
forward. Are there letters on this case?
Caramagno: No letters.
Henzi: Mr. Smith, anything you would like to say in closing?
Petitioner: Well, my neighbors I talked to them and if you needed letters from them, they
will be happy to give you letters and they have no problem with it. That’s the neighbors’
on both sides of me. There are no issues there. They’re a good community. We try to
any way. But that’s why I need it or requesting it.
Henzi: Thank you very much. Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and
begin the Board’s comments with Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: I will be in support. I don’t think that what the Petitioner is asking for first of all is
that large of a variance, but I think he does have a uniqueness and a hardship with his
physical needs right now. So, I will be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Yeah, I hear your hardship. I think you have demonstrated that in your
explanation. The overage, while I feel it’s going to be a little bit tight, I think it’s
appropriate to have. I would like to see you reclaim some brick and put a brick ribbon
around the back there whether it’s 3 ft. tall or what it is so that side does go all the way
down. So I will be in support, but I would like to see some brick ribbon there.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 55 March 6, 2012
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Yeah, I can be in support of this. I agree with Sam that it would be nice to see
a little bit of brick on the bottom, but I will be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: I, too, will be in support. He obviously satisfied the hardship requirement and
he’s only asking for 5 percent more so absolutely I will be in support.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: I would agree he has definitely shown the hardship and the amount of excess
is minimal so I will also be in support.
Henzi: I, too, will support the variance. I think that the lot coverage if we took off the
covered front porch, if we didn’t consider that as lot coverage, then the excess is
diminutive in my opinion. I agree, I think that if he could replace some brick maybe up
to the knee wall, or just as much as you can around the back that would make it look a
little bit more like it was there to begin with. So, the floor is open for a motion.
Upon Motion by Aloe, supported by Pastor, it was
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-03-04: Gary Smith, 14170 Cardwell, Livonia,
MI 48154, seeking to construct a rear family room addition, resulting in excess lot
coverage.
Lot Coverage
Allowed: 25.0% (1,800 sq. ft.)
Proposed: 30.4% (2,186 sq. ft.)
Excess: 5.4% ( 386 sq. ft.)
The property is located on the east side of Cardwell (14170) between Perth and
Bentley, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the Petitioner has a physical need
for this room. Petitioner is unable to use his basement and needs more room on
his first floor.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because of the Petitioner’s physical need.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and the spirit of
the Zoning Ordinance because there is no neighbor effect and it is consistent
with other homes in that area.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 55 March 6, 2012
4. The Board received no letters of approval and no letters of objection from
neighboring property owners.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of
the Master Plan because this property is classified for “Low Density Residential”
under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that
classification.
FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions:
1. That the addition be constructed according to the prints that were submitted to
the Board dated 12/27/11, except that the Petitioner’s builder shall use what brick
he can that is on the existing back wall to be incorporated into a ribbon around
the new addition.
2. That once construction commences it needs to be enclosed within 90 days.
3. That the variance is good for one year.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Aloe, Pastor, Caramagno, Duggan, McCue, Henzi
NAYS: None
ABSENT: Sills
Henzi: The variance is granted with those three conditions. Any questions?
Contractor: Just a quick question. They have a door and a large window so there really
is not much brick, can we match as close as possible?
Henzi: I think that if that’s something appealed that the Inspection Department will okay
it.
Contractor: Very good.
Henzi: Okay. Good luck
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 55 March 6, 2012
______________________________________________________________________
(7:12 #1/381)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-03-07: Cloud City LTD Partnership, on behalf of Lessee,
Applied Process, Inc., seeking to erect an addition to the front of a
nonconforming industrial building, resulting in deficient front yard setback.
Nonconformity is based on the existing east side yard setback of 10 feet where
20 feet is required and existing rear yard setback of 3 feet where 50 feet is
required.
Front Yard Setback
Required: 50 ft. 0 in.
Proposed: 25 ft. 5 in.
Deficient: 24 ft. 7 in.
The property is located on the east side of Newburgh (12238) between Amrhein and
Plymouth.
Henzi: To the Inspection Department, anything to add to this case?
DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time.
Henzi: Any questions? Then will the Petitioner please come forward?
Petitioner: Hello.
Henzi: Good evening.
Representative: I’m Christopher Bixler, I am the owner-approved representative for
Allied Process, Inc. Cloud City, LTD. The address is 12238 Newburgh Road, Livonia. I
have with me here tonight Steven Sumner, the plant manager, and John Molet, our
architect. A little background on the project, we met with Mark Taormina a few months
back regarding some tax abatements and we discussed in more detail the struggles that
we were having with our facility and at the request of Mr. Taormina we moved forward
with the meeting with the Building Inspection Department, Alex Bishop, Randy
Abrahamson and then the engineers discussing what our pinch points were and what
we were looking to do. They thought it was a good fit and suggested that we move
forward and bring this to the Zoning Board. If it is okay, we have a quick – we were
going to have a power point, but the way the room is set up it’s not so good so we have
some slides we’d like to hand around and kind of go through, if that’s okay.
Henzi: Sure.
Representative: Steve will be starting here. He’s going to give you a little bit of
background on our company and when we started and that important information.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 55 March 6, 2012
Sumner: First, I would just like to thank you guys for giving us the opportunity to come
before you and talk to you a little bit about our business and what we are here for and
why we want to expand our building. I think mostly to be able to enhance our facility
and help us better serve our customers, our employees, and the community. So with
that, I will try and be brief, but in 1978 Allied Process was formed in Wixom, Michigan as
a research project. In ’86 we moved to its present location in Livonia there at the corner
of Newburgh and Amrhein. In ’94 we expanded our business in Oshkosh, Wisconsin,
AP West Shore. In 2005, we moved our corporate division into its present location
which is located at 12202 Newburgh which is actually attached to our current facility.
What do we do there? We are a heat-treating company. We specialize in
austempering. We service automotive heavy truck, railroad, agriculture, construction
and mining and general manufacturing. We’re a 24/7 operation. We have 38
employees broke down by production, maintenance, office, and shipping. On the 12202
Newburgh Road, we have 11 employees in the corporate office. Why do we want to
expand? Well, we’ve gone through some tremendous growth in the last year. We have
had a 38 percent increase in sales, 25 percent increase in work force, 33 percent
increase in production equipment, and the lack of storage space creates a very
inefficient work flow. We have one truck dock which we have trucks that go around the
corridor in many cases which creates real inefficient coming in and out. We don’t have
very limited set-down space in the proximity of the truck docks which means we’re
trucking work 200 ft. down the building to the 12202 address which is a very inefficient
operation. So we would like to create more set-down space, another truck dock, and
improved office facilities for the current workforce that we have there. And with that I
will turn it back over to Chris.
Representative: The next slide kind of gives you an overview of our heat-treat
equipment. These are the furnaces and there’s a couple things I want to point. If we
had the presentation, I was going to have a laser pointer and could show you, but if you
look off to the left-hand side of the screen you will see a yellow railing. One of the
things that is a necessity in our heat-treat plants is a pit. The quench tanks which hold
the molten salt which we cool our metal parts in, sit in the floor they are about 7 ft.
below the floor. So, that is specific building you could not go out today in Livonia and
find this pit designed the way we need it so that’s the first thing unique to the building
that we’re in right now. The second thing you might notice is, there’s the two black lines
that kind of run from front to back of the drawing, those are actually rails and if you look
in the lower right-hand corner, you will see what we call a transfer car. It’s a little train
type piece of equipment that moves from furnace to furnace to load the equipment in so
we would need a rail track next to this pit to load the furnaces. And then finally, the
unique thing that we have is the furnaces. If you look at the upper right, it’s a four-piece
system. The yellow part is the furnace, the heating zone, the piece kind of in between
the two boxes is what we call our perch chamber and then all the way to the right is the
quench, below is the quench and above is the atmosphere control vestibule chamber.
They’re all welded together, bolted, piping running to all of them. So, to just take them
apart takes about two weeks. You’re cutting welds you have to re-weld them back to
together when we move, if we had to move, if that was the option. What we’d be
expecting is about per furnace about two months and because we’re 24/7 right now and
we’re at about 100 percent capacity, any furnace we take off line we’re going to lose
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 55 March 6, 2012
that capacity. Customers need their work done. That has to go somewhere. So, we
shut that furnace down our customers aren’t getting their work done they’re going to go
to our competitor. So it’s one of those things that if we move, we’re going to create a
pain because we could lose customers. If we lose customers, there’s no reason to
move because we don’t have the work any more so it’s not a good solution. We’ve
looked at that, I mean, ultimately we did look at that solution before we came to you.
Can we move? How would it look? The costs associated with that are just so high it’s
about twice as much as doing this addition even a little bit more than that. So, that’s
where we’re at with that. I will now hand it off to John to go through the plans and
discuss how we came to the solution that we came to and kind of the traffic flow that we
looked and things like that.
Molet: Thanks for having us. My name is John Molet. Feel free to interrupt and ask
questions if there is something that is unclear as we are going through this. This is what
you have in your package. One major part of this that hasn’t been mentioned yet is
safety. There’s some issues related to both the site and within the building that this is
attempting to solve. The photos give you an idea. This is a photo taken on by Chris on
a somewhat random day and you can see three trucks lined up and there are times
when there are trucks lined up on Amrhein and challenges on Newburgh, the trucks
maneuvering. So, one of the important aspects of this is we’re trying to clean up the
circulation coming into the site and by adding the double truck well to try to relieve that
back up of those trucks and keep them moving so we also don’t have trucks idling and
creating environmental problems for neighbors and those sorts of things. So, we think
that it will create a safer and more efficient operation for that while preserving parking
along this area that services the building. But one thing that we are able to do that I
think is a very important piece of this is actually close up a curb cut. This very large
wide curb cut that is straight across from the existing truck well. So, we had the
opportunity to close that off, berm it. If you folks have been by that site, you know that
it’s bermed and we’ve had the opportunity to landscape it. So, that’s the basics of the
site. The building itself, the addition that we are looking at is confined to the north end
of the building so that it allows them to continue to operate the furnaces. And we are
just now starting to talk to contractors about the methodology that we’d use to face the
project. But the basic notion of it is to confine it to the north side where it expands that
truck well, double truck well and then expands the high-bay component and creates a
two-story office component. They still have the need for office functions on this part of
the building and that’s the way we found to maximize the amount of high-bay space that
they need. So, that’s the basic functioning of the site.
Representative: I do want to point out that as John talks about how furnaces are
already, you know, in essence glued in place. Moving them even inside the building we
are going to incur those costs. The wells in this plant are – they’re separate because of
the phase of the building each pit was dug separately so we can’t move. So at this
point, and I see John has a better - the furnaces are where they’re at. So, what we
need is when the work is coming in which the volume is increased, we need to be able
to set the work down here. That reduces the travel of the forklifts so they are not driving
all the way down. We have a little storage down in the corporate offices, but that’s two
or 300 ft. away and we actually have future expansion plans for the corporate offices for
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 55 March 6, 2012
research and development so that would remove that ability to do that if we were to take
that space. Again, that wouldn’t increase stability for loading and unloading. The trucks
would take in excess of an hour sometimes to load and unload running the length of the
building. So, this is all designed not to increase our capacity in any way it’s just to allow
us to utilize all the furnaces we have and have enough set-down space for the work that
we need on a daily basis. It’s just get the work where we need it, make it as safe as
possible, reduce truck waiting times, reduce traffic at Newburgh and Armhein, that kind
of thing.
Molet: Stole my thunder. I was going to describe some of that but he’s better at it.
Representative: I’m a process engineer. I can’t help myself.
Molet: You can tell by this drawing these are these loading tables that load the stuff on,
takes it down to the furnaces. So, right now things are going hither and yon and so it
creates safety issues, efficiency issues, and so forth, and there are more employees
and more people in harms way. This does allow for a lot more space for them to be
able to have the product that comes in, gets stored until it goes through the process and
then stored before it goes out through the truck well. The office portion of it, the first
floor, main entrance, open office area, two toilet rooms, an office, stairway up. On the
top floor there’s a men and women locker room and a lunchroom for the staff, pretty
simple part of the operation. The elevations that you’ve got in your package are a little
hard to read sometimes so we have a color rendering. So, what you see here is at the
top left is the north elevation on Amrhein. Right up the west elevation on Newburgh and
both of these shots are taken from basically the intersection, roughly that angle. So, the
basics of the building are pretty straightforward. Main entrance here, that stairwell that
you saw on the floor plans here in the corner with a window at midlevel height. A lot of
nature light into space, got a lot of high-band glass to project the lighting into the space.
Tarrium (Ph.) brick that is similar to the brick that is used on the rest of the building to tie
that in. The notion is to use all metal panels probably of a different color than what’s
there now. They’re sort of a tan color. We’re still debating colors. We actually have
another version of this that’s the same design with brown so we’re still working – we’ll
work through which panel colors to go with. That’s the basics of that look, you know,
our hope is that from the neighbors’ point of view it’s an attractive upgrade to what’s
there now. What’s there has been there a long time. Where we’re pulling the building
out to is in line with the building immediately to the east, at the same setback line.
We’re trying to be sensitive to the area. So all in all from the neighborhood point of
view, we’re hoping that some environmental impact by giving up trucks sitting and
potential hazards created by trucks. The appearance is better jobs to maintain the jobs
in this area. Our hope is that all in all it’s an upgrade.
Representative: In the presentation, there’s a picture of me standing on the west side of
the property looking straight east and you can see the Cappy Heating and Cooling
building sticking out about another 25 ft. past our building just to let you know what that
picture was there.
Sumner: Yeah, our plan would be to line up with that.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 55 March 6, 2012
Representative: Yeah, we don’t want to go past them. We’re willing just to go in line,
you know, with them.
Molet: Have we covered most of the bases?
Rresentative: I think so.
Henzi: Any questions?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: You’re adding more office space, how many more employees are you going to
be adding?
Sumner: We don’t plan on adding any additional employees to our current operation,
but we did add two employees to our office staff in the last year and we added nine
people. We added one maintenance person and eight production employees.
Pastor: So are you still at 38 then?
Sumner: That’s at 38, but we are – the locker room facilities and the lunch room
facilities are a little strained.
Pastor: Well, I was just worried about parking, but it looks like you have more than 50
spots. Okay.
Sumner: Right, additionally this allows us to, you know, look at expanding our tech
division on the tech end of the building whereas if we have to use that for storage, we’d
have to look at possibly relocating that business in another building.
Pastor: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: To the Building Department. Did I understand that this setback is in line with
other setbacks in that area?
DeMeyer: Yes.
Aloe: It is. Okay, thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 55 March 6, 2012
Henzi: That’s Cappy’s; right?
Representative: That’s correct.
Henzi: That’s the point that you’re going to align with; right?
Representative: Yeah, whatever that line is, you know, that’s where we’d like to go.
Henzi: Is this the photograph that has got the slide?
Representative: Yeah, I’m standing – yeah.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Is there any plans for any landscaping on the Amrhein side once you put
the addition on? You’re going to take down I assume those 3 or 4, 5 large pine trees?
Is there any plans for --
Representative: Certainly we would.
Caramagno: -- any landscaping on that end?
Sumner: We would landscape that as well as the berm area out in front of the building,
yes.
Caramagno: And when you say the front, you’re talking about the berm area off of
Newburgh Road. So that driveway will disappear and you’ll put a berm there?
Sumner: That’s correct.
Representative: Yes.
Caramagno: And then also landscaping on the Amrhein side.
Sumner: Correct.
Representative: Actually for the trees, the owner would like us to try to take them up
and replant them on the property. If we can’t do that, then he is going to take them to
his house so we’re not actually going to kill the trees, we’re going to try to save them
one way or another.
Caramagno: They’re big trees, good luck.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 55 March 6, 2012
Representative: Yeah.
Molet: That’s what we all said.
Sumnner: We really consider ourselves a world-class facility and we want a nice
aesthetically pleasing site for ourselves and our neighbors and our community. So, yes,
we very definitely plan on having a very --
Caramagno: Where’s the flagpole going to go? I don’t see it in the picture.
Sumner: It will either be on the Amrhein side or I doubt that we’re going to put it that
close to Newburgh, so it would probably be in the Amrhein side of the building.
Representative: That will be a requirement of the owner to have a flagpole.
Sumner: We won’t be able to dismiss the flagpole.
Caramagno: The last question I have, I see the dumpster now it’s in front, kind of in the
front of the building by the corner, basically the corner of Amrhein and Newburgh.
Where is that going to go? It obviously can’t stay there with this –
Representative: If you look at the drawings, there’s a current notch out about ¾ of the
way down. We talked to the building department about that, too. There’s three trees
that kind of just float out into the driveway space where the trucks are at. The
Inspection Department said, “W e don’t have any problem with you taking those out.”
We would then put the dumpster there in that area.
Caramagno: Will there be an enclosure built?
Sumner: Some kind of enclosure, landscaping, yeah.
Representative: If that’s what needed, that’s not a problem.
Caramagno: I think it should be. When you go up and down Newburgh Road, you just
don’t see dumpsters in the front yard like you have currently at your place.
Representative: The other option will be to leave it in the building and on the day of
trash – this is how we do it at our Wisconsin plant. The dumpster is inside the building
and then on the day of trash they grab it with a forklift and bring it out and set it outside
for them to dump it and then they bring it back in.
Caramagno: This is a good idea as long as it’s not in front of the building as it is now. It
would do terrible injustice to that beautiful plan there so it’s got to be put someplace
else.
Sumner: Okay.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 55 March 6, 2012
Representative: We agree.
Caramagno: That’s all I got.
Henzi: Any other questions? I just have one or two. Are you confident that this is
sufficient for your needs and here’s where I’m going at, I think that you make a very
compelling argument about the furnaces, I mean, when I drove through the back, the
doors were open and it’s obvious that those are huge pieces of machinery and that you
couldn’t replicate easily what you need. But my only concern is are we going to dress
up this building, make it bigger and then in a year, you’re going to say we need to move
somewhere else.
Sumner: That would not be our plan in any way, shape or form. Our company vision is
to expand our business, but we’ve actually expanded to the limit of what our owner feels
a single facility is comfortable to operate because now we start developing inefficiencies
because we have too much mass. And actually we pull work from North Carolina,
Pennsylvania, and New York. So our geographical area, I think, is already rather
stretched and so our expansion would be through looking at either acquisitions of other
facilities in other areas or green fields in other areas of the country perhaps. It’s like we
did with the Westshore facility.
Representative: We’ve been here since 1986 in Livonia where we are at now. Our
owner likes the area. On multiple occasions he has told we can’t have a better piece of
property right at the corner of 96 and 275, so he feels it is a very ideal spot to be in
Metro Detroit so the goal would be to stay here if we can get the space that we need.
Sumner: Right.
Henzi: Thank you very much. Any other questions? Is there anyone in the audience
who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the table. I don’t
see anybody. Are there letters on this case?
Caramagno: No.
Henzi: Gentlemen, anything you would like to say in closing?
Representative: No, thank you for your consideration on the project.
Henzi: Thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s
comments with Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Well, you know, this is quite an undertaking for your company, quite an
undertaking for that corner. Your hardship to me, I think you stated well. You’ve got a
high investment in that piece of property right now and the way your machinery is set
up, the pits that you’ve got and the floor dug there, obviously that’s not duplicated too
easily and to not have an addition encroach on Amrhein a little bit, and have to duplicate
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 55 March 6, 2012
all that other process seems to not make any sense to me. What you are asking for is
not unrealistic especially in the face that Cappy’s right next door to the east is at the
same distance from Amrhein that you want to be. Your plan is gorgeous. It’s a
beautiful-looking plan. It’s presented well. It’s easy to see these things when someone
presents a plan like that. It just puts a visual for me and it helps me understand what it’s
going to look like that I didn’t know before I sat down here. So, I’m going to be in
support. I think it’s a good-looking plan. I think it satisfies your needs today.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Yes, I will be in support also. Sam pretty much said everything I was thinking so
I will be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: I, too, will be in support, a very impressive presentation. My concern was
going to be what Mr. Henzi said involving the long-term plan, but I think it looks great.
You guys obviously need it and I will be in support.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue:
McCue: I agree. I agree with pretty much everything everybody just said. I think the
other thing that I like about that the increased safety both in that plant and on the road.
I don’t think you can think too much about that. Obviously, you have a unique situation
there so I also will be in support.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: I will also be in support. I think you do have a unique situation, but I think the City
as well as you gains with this improvement. It is definitely going to be an improvement
to the corner besides an improvement to your ability to do business so I will be in
support.
Henzi: I, too, will support the request. I think it’s a perfect example of a company
working with the planning department to come with a great solution. You answered a lot
of our questions before even coming here so I thank you for that. The floor is open for a
motion.
Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-03-07: Cloud City LTD Partnership, on behalf
of Lessee, Applied Process, Inc., seeking to erect an addition to the front of a
nonconforming industrial building, resulting in deficient front yard setback.
Nonconformity is based on the existing east side yard setback of 10 feet where
20 feet is required and existing rear yard setback of 3 feet where 50 feet is
required.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 55 March 6, 2012
Front Yard Setback
Required: 50 ft. 0 in.
Proposed: 25 ft. 5 in.
Deficient: 24 ft. 7 in.
The property is located on the east side of Newburgh (12238) between Amrhein and
Plymouth be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because this long-term Livoniabusiness has
a great deal of investment in a piece of property that is not easily duplicated.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because it would take a great deal for the business to change having to build the
pits, and the tracks, and the rails that are required of this business as well as
moving the furnaces.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and the spirit of
the Zoning Ordinance because this building is only asking to expand to the north
as far as the neighbor currently sits to the east.
4. The Board received no letters of approval and no letters of objection from
neighboring property owners.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of
the Master Plan because this property is classified as “Industrial” under the
Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that
classification.
FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following condition:
1. That this plan be built as presented to the Board taking into consideration the
landscaping comments as well as the curb cut, and trash dumpster comments.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Aloe, Duggan, McCue, Henzi
NAYS: None
ABSENT: Sills
Henzi: The variance is granted with just one condition. You have got to construct it as
presented including the representations made about the curb cut, the dumpster and the
landscaping. Thank you very much.
Representative: Thank you.
Sumner: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 55 March 6, 2012
Molet: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 55 March 6, 2012
(7:39 (#1/1155)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-03-06: Kathryn Trestain, 19246 Brentwood, Livonia, MI
48152, seeking to reverse an administrative ruling that maintaining goats is a
prohibited use within a rural urban farm zoning district, or in the event that the
Board affirms that administrative ruling, seeking a use variance to maintain goats
in a rural urban farm zoned district.
The property is located on the east side of Brentwood (19246) between
Seven Mile Road and Pembroke.
Henzi: To the Inspection Department, do you have anything to add?
DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time, Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Any questions for Mr. DeMeyer?
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Does Livonia have any place that would allow that in the City?
DeMeyer: The ordinance doesn’t have any place for goats.
Aloe: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Fisher: I would like to just expand on that answer a little bit. The RUF
District does have the following criteria: “Fowl and rabbits may be raised and kept
for the owner’s consumption only on one-half acre or more, two horses may be
kept for the owner’s use only on one acre or more, two horses and one cow or
three horses may be kept for the owner’s use only on two acres.” Just for some
perspective.
Aloe: What was the first one, Mike, fowl and rabbits?
Fisher: Fowl or rabbits on a half acre or more.
Aloe: Thank you.
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 55 March 6, 2012
Caramagno: I’ve got a question for the Inspection Department. Are there any
current violations on this property?
DeMeyer: We do have some ordinance violations, yes, and most of it was
originated by complaints with the animals. And then when our ordinance officer
went out there, he informed them that they also needed to clean up the property.
Caramagno: Okay, how long ago was this?
DeMeyer: This has been going on, let’s see, I think back to August, July,
August.
Caramagno: That’s the first I’ve looked at it. Has there been any improvement at all on
cleaning up this property?
DeMeyer: No, not to my knowledge.
Caramagno: What’s the story of the blue tarp on top of one of those buildings; do you
know what the deal is with that?
DeMeyer: I do not, no.
Caramagno: That seems that would get old real fast, no?
DeMeyer: Yes.
Caramagno: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: I have a follow-up question if you don’t mind. If the Building Department gets a
complaint about animals, is it an enforcement officer who goes out or do you call
another authority to assist?
DeMeyer: It’s generally the enforcement officer and then I believe he called the animal
control officer out also.
Henzi: Oh, okay. Any other questions?
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: This property isn’t a half acre; is it?
DeMeyer: It’s 3/4 of an acre.
Aloe: Oh, okay.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 55 March 6, 2012
DeMeyer: It’s a little over a half acre.
Aloe: Thank you.
Henzi: Okay. Any other questions? Hearing none, good evening.
Petitioner: Good evening.
Henzi: Can you tell us your name and address, please?
Petitioner: Kathryn Trestain, 19246 Brentwood, Livonia, Michigan 48152.
Henzi: Go ahead.
Petitioner: Good evening, members of Livonia Zoning Board of Appeals and concerned
citizens. Thank you for being here this evening and for devoting your time and energy
to the concerns of our community. Thank you in particular for hearing my petition to
allow goats as pets and livestock in a rural urban farm zoned district on the outskirts of
Livonia. In a city and a state that boasts a rich agrarian history from the garden walks at
Greenmead to Farmer’s Market at the Wilson Barn. In a city that welcomes horses,
cattle and poultry, in a city that still celebrates rural urban farm zoning, I believe that
goats are a no brainer. I also believe that not mentioning goats in the portions of the
City’s ordinance that discusses rural urban farms was a mere oversight. These
affectionate, docile, eco-friendly herbivores certainly fit within the spirit of the law.
Before we get into goats, I would like to tell you a little bit about myself. I am the
daughter of a World War II hero. My dad was injured in the bloodiest battle in the South
Pacific, the campaign for Okinawa. He returned to his home state of Michigan after two
and-a-half years in military hospitals. He married my mom and moved to Livonia before
it became a city. He purchased the property at 19246 Brentwood because it was
designated rural farm, RUF. My dad observed the post-war trend of creating food in
laboratories and in factories and it concerned him. The same chemicals that Hitler used
on millions of Jews were now being sold as pesticides and herbicides. Cows, which had
eaten grass for centuries, were being moved to feed lots where they were being fed
corn and other cows. He watched in distress as our food became packaged,
processed, and so far removed from its wholesome state. He knew there was an
alternative and he held on to this property for that very reason. I left Livonia when I was
18 on a full scholarship to a Pac-10 University. A rotary international ambassadorial
fellowship opened the door of the world to me. I went on to conduct my graduate work
at the prestigious Cambridge University in the United Kingdom. I learned Chinese,
Japanese, and Arabic. I became a foreign correspondent and I traveled the globe. My
last stop was as a White House correspondent and a member of the White House press
corps under President George Bush. I am a globe-trotting journalist. I never thought
that I would be sitting here before you asking for a variance to keep goats on my
father’s Livonia property. How did we get here? Many of you are familiar with our story.
We were victims of domestic violence and we were failed by civil society in some pretty
profound ways. My parents died and I was severely injured. For 16 months I lay in a
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 55 March 6, 2012
hospital bed screaming in terror. My very well planned intentional life spun out of
control. My road to recovery has been tough and long. Psychology, physically,
spiritually, and financially I have been devastated. The world-renowned traumatologist,
Dr. Frank Ochberg took over my case. He was the Assistant Attorney General under
President Nixon and he originated the diagnosis post-traumatic stress disorder for the
United States Department of Veterans Affairs. He took my case because it was urgent
and it was compelling. I was dying. It was Dr. Ochberg who encouraged me to utilize
my dad’s Livonia farm. He believed correctly that the animals and digging in the dirt
would be beneficial for my broken, shattered, desperate soul. What I agreed to was an
experiment to produce more local food with less global fuel. I had no idea that it would
save my life. What I did not expect was that it would give me a reason to get up every
morning. That the goats, these gentle loving creatures, really would save my life and
another thing I didn’t expect was that they would save the lives of some Livonia’s
hurting children, some who have written letters to you tonight. I maintain six goats on
our property, Cathy, Texy, Debbie, Cory, Jerome, and Sunday. The USDA, the
Michigan Department of Agriculture and the City of Livonia, requires an acre to maintain
a 1,000 lb. horse and two acres to maintain a 2,000 lb. cow. The City simply has not
addressed the issue of goats and I’m not sure that you’ve been addressed to answer
the issue of goats until tonight. I’m aware that this Board on at least two occasions has
approved maintaining pigs which I believe are much more aggressive and much
smellier than goats. Although the City has not taken a position on goats, State and
Federal Agencies recommend that two average 100 lb. adult goats have 1/5 of an acre
to live on to exercise and to move. We have just over 7/10 of an acre. We have enough
land to accommodate to the six goats that we own. We are a farm as defined and
protected by the Michigan Department of Agriculture in accordance with State law and,
as defined by the City of Livonia. We have the facilities to house the six goats we own.
We aggressively and vigorously adhere to the Michigan Department of Agriculture’s
generally accepted practices for things like nutrition, air quality, housing, health care,
manure management, and parasite prevention. By doing so, we are protected under
the Michigan Right to Farm Act. My petition is not merely about the goats. It’s about
freedom, it’s about more responsibility, it’s about my health, and it’s about tolerance
even if you might not want to own goats yourself. I know three residents in Livonia right
now that own goats and the City has told me my mistake was to go public and to let
people know and to ask for permission. Goats are used all over the world for milk,
cheese, cottage cheese, yogurt, kefir, and they are becoming more and more popular
in America as more and more Americans demand to know where their food comes from.
Upper class neighborhoods are welcoming goats to their urban landscape. I am asking
Livonia to join cities like Portland, Oregon; Seattle, Washington; Los Angeles, California;
San Francisco, California; Nashville, Tennessee; St. Paul, Minnesota; Pasadena,
California; Manhattan, New York and St. Louis, Missouri. All these cities specifically
allow for goats in their ordinances. The debate over goats is playing out in courtrooms
across the country. In Matthews, North Carolina which is a Charlotte suburb, the battle
lines were just drawn over goats and goats prevailed. Two years ago in March 2010 in
Carbondale, Illinois, the Planning Commission was deciding whether or not to allow
residents to keep chickens. A member of the City’s Sustainability Commission added
goats to the mix saying in a city that allows dogs, when goats produce milk, it just
makes common sense. Two things I would like to address goats as pets. Goats are
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 55 March 6, 2012
quiet and docile. They do not smell, and as I said, many Americans have been
embracing goats as pets. It seems nonsensical that cities would allow dogs, even one’s
powerful enough to kill people, but not goats. In cities across our county, goats are now
being reclassified as small animals joining the ranks of dogs and cats. Goats as live
stock. Goats are small. They offer a cold manure which does not smell and can be
used immediately as fertilizer without the use of hot composting. It’s a very low-nitrogen
manure and they eliminate tiny rabbit-like pellets if you have even seen goat manure,
but they are very, very small. It does not make sense to me that in rural farm acreage
horses and cows would be permitted but not goats especially, I mean, many of us are
familiar with horse and cow manure and as I said, I believe this was an oversight by city
planners. During World War II across this country, Americans established victory
gardens, which were about much more than food. In a country searching for its roots in
tough economic times, I believe it’s important to look back to our agrarian heritage for
healing and stability. I believe it’s time to re-establish victory gardens in cities
throughout our land including the victory garden at my Livonia home which is a lot more
than a garden or farm. It says to me, you are courageous, you are strong, you are the
daughter of a combat-tested United States Marine and you are going to make it. I
believe my victory garden should include goats and I pray that you feel the same way.
Henzi: I have a few questions for you.
Petitioner: Uh-huh.
Henzi: You’re the first petitioner to come before this Board specifically asking about
goats, you are correct in that. You’re also the first person in my eight years on the
Board who has a RUF piece of land and refers to it as her farm. We’ve had folks come
before us who say, I need this variance and by the way I have a horse or I want to build
a pole barn, but it’s a pet. Do you consider this to be different than you just happen to
have six goats. You consider this to be a farm; is that right?
Petitioner: I don’t know if you call it an urban farm or, I mean, they’re my pets more
than anything. I mean, I’m not a farmer by trade and as I told you I really got the goats
because it was recommended to me that animals would be beneficial and I really didn’t
want dogs.
Henzi: All right, I’m just trying to figure out some information because you said that you
considered it to be a farm recognized by the State of Michigan and by the City of Livonia
and so I am wondering are you asking us to allow this because there is a State law or
part of our ordinance that allows it or are you just saying I want it because goats aren’t
expressly in the ordinance, but they should have been.
Petitioner: Okay. I guess, well because we have the rural farm designation and to be
considered a farm in the State of Michigan you need to have 7/10 of an acre which I
think is why Livonia made this RUF and I can show you the Right to Farm Act which I
have with me and I think, you know, I think we are all getting educated on this. I didn’t
know anything about that and my dad certainly did and I had no idea why he held on to
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 55 March 6, 2012
the property and why RUF was so valuable to him, but as I have had to research to
save my animals I have learned a little bit more.
Henzi: Is your property or are your animals inspected by the Michigan Department of
Agriculture or any other authorizing agency?
Petitioner: They are and the American Dairy Goat Association.
Henzi: Okay. You heard earlier that there was some talk about some building
department violations; can you tell us your side of the story?
Petitioner: Yeah, we’ve worked really hard and I think and I’m sorry I don’t want to be
adversarial l, but I think that if you talk to any of the like Mr. Jerry Raycraft, we’ve had
numerous meetings with the City. I inherited this property and my dad had lived there
for almost 60 years and I don’t know if any of you have parents that, you know,
collected and collected and collected for 60 years, but all of a sudden we were hit with
violent crime. My parents were dead and here I was, you know, not even knowing my
name or how I got here or what happened to us and here I’m having to deal with all my
dad and my mother’s stuff. So, we’ve been moving out and doing the best we can. We
had a lot of things under a big white canopy and that’s all been taken down. And as far
as the City, they have said that they have no problems, but we have had various
meetings and I think that that we’ve met their criteria and they also have been really
kind in working with us.
Henzi: For how long has this been going on, back and forth with the City?
Petitioner: I guess I would say probably in the fall and we had things cleaned up in
about two or three months. And I needed to explain the situation that it was just me
and, you know, how was I going to get this – it wasn’t animals it was dealing with my
dad’s property like all this stuff.
Henzi: Okay. And then how did you know that Livonia’s approved residents to house
pigs on RUF land?
Petitioner: The City let me know.
Henzi: Were there any other examples you can tell us some were the goats?
Petitioner: No, when I met with Mr. Raycraft and a couple other City officials, they –
they’ve been really behind me because they know that there are goats in Livonia and
they know that I came to them asking for permission and they know that I’m not trying to
hide anything. And so they were the one’s that have been like, hey, come on here
you’ve got to get a presentation together. You’re going to meet with the Zoning Board
of Appeals, we’re rooting for you, here’s what you need to know. They’ve already
approved pigs twice and I think they have been trying to like give me, you know, some
information. Obviously, I didn’t hire a whole legal team to come in here.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 55 March 6, 2012
Henzi: No, you answered my question just a couple more. For how long have you had
the goats?
Petitioner: A year.
Henzi: What animals did you have before that or did your dad have before that?
Petitioner: We had chickens when I was growing up and rabbits. And I did, I don’t
know if you - I think it may be in my petition, but I actually called the City to get
permission and spoke to the City Clerk’s Office. They said you are RUF, you will be
fine, but then when it went to the Ordinance Enforcement, they said, no, they were
incorrect goats are not in the ordinance and so we were at a standstill and that’s when
Mr. Raycraft and his supervision said that, you know, you need to go before the Zoning
Board of Appeals and they’re the one’s that have the authority to allow you to have the
goats.
Henzi: What’s your relationship with the neighbors, the properties adjacent to you?
Petitioner: I think for the most part everybody has been really supportive. I was actually
quite shocked when the news showed up at my door and said that this was like a huge
debate in your neighborhood. And now I’m hearing from more and more people that it
could be controversial so, I mean, the people that have a problem with it haven’t come
to me and I guess that’s what we’re here tonight for.
Henzi: What do you mean when the news came to your door?
Petitioner: Well, I’m sure you guys have heard, I mean, it’s been on WJR. It’s been on
Channel 4, it’s been on Fox 2. I mean, I used to work for Fox 2 so when my old
photographer, Marcus, showed up at my door and my friend Bill Gallahger, I’m like what
are you doing here and they’re like what are you doing here?
Henzi: You didn’t initiate that?
Petitioner: No.
Henzi: This may be my last question.
Petitioner: I guess it was in the paper. I guess you are required to put something in the
paper about tonight’s meeting.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: And WJR, you know, at one of their morning meetings kind of followed up on
that.
Henzi: It’s neither here nor there.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 55 March 6, 2012
Petitioner: Yeah.
Henzi: We’ll move on. You’re going to hear some opposition from folks and letters and
otherwise and I think it would be smart maybe for this process if you’d address some of
it now. You’re going to hear letters in which folks say that these animals are getting into
my yard and I don’t like it; what’s your response?
Petitioner: I don’t think that that’s true.
Henzi: Okay. That’s what we want to hear or do you dispute that these animals are
getting into the neighbors’ yards, stuff like that?
Petitioner: Absolutely.
Henzi: Okay. Have you heard some opposition from your neighbors? Have people
come to you and say, we don’t like this?
Petitioner: Not really, I mean, in going to talk to neighbors about tonight’s meeting.
Some people have mentioned chickens and the chickens crowing, but I’ve never heard
anybody say anything about the goats.
Henzi: Okay. Thanks, any questions for the Petitioner?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: To Building, do we have an ordinance of how many dogs you can have in your
yard; isn’t there an ordinance about that?
DeMeyer: Yes, the maximum amount of pets you can have is three.
Pastor: Three. I’m sorry, how many goats do you have?
Petitioner: Six.
DeMeyer: Six.
Pastor: Okay, thanks. Can you address as Sam was talking about earlier about the
blue tarp that’s on the, I believe you call it a shed?
Petitioner: There’s a storage area. We had a leak in the winter and some of the guys
came over to help me and put a tarp just to cover the leak until they could put a new
roof on in the spring.
Pastor: You’re talking about this winter? It’s been there since the beginning of this
winter?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 55 March 6, 2012
Petitioner: It was put on there after Christmas.
Pastor: After Christmas. Where do you house these animals?
Petitioner: In the storage shed. I think you have a diagram of it.
Pastor: You said you have a victory garden. How much of your property does that take
up?
Petitioner: I planted – I mean I’m not really sure maybe --
Pastor: A quarter of the backyard or half of the backyard, a tenth of the backyard?
Petitioner: No, no, I would have to ask somebody, but I planted 200 asparagus crowns
last year I really don’t know, but not much.
Pastor: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Duggan: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: So, you have the six goats. How many chickens do you have?
Petitioner: Right now there is 22.
Duggan: How many roosters?
Petitioner: I think about – there’s nine that are about to be processed.
Duggan: So, they all stay in the shed that you have right here?
Petitioner: Yeah, and the insulation that was put in there is – they put R30 back-to-
back, so it’s actually 60 insulation which really muffles the sound and they don’t come
out until 10:00 o’clock in the morning. I mean you hear them during the day because
they are roosters they’re going to do what roosters do just like dogs bark, roosters crow.
Duggan: What about noise like – they come out at 10:00 a.m. do they make noise at
night?
Petitioner: No, I mean, chickens will go to bed as soon as it’s dark.
Duggan: Okay. And what time do they start making noise in the morning?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 55 March 6, 2012
Petitioner: Well, they don’t make noise until like I said until we brought them out. I
mean you can’t hear them when it’s muffled.
Duggan: Okay. So when there’s going to be complaints about noise, you know,
chickens and clucking and all that, is that all happening during the day?
Petitioner: Uh-huh.
Duggan: So that would be during the day?
Petitioner: Uh-huh.
Duggan: Okay. All right, thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Do we have an ordinance about how many chickens you can have?
DeMeyer: We don’t have a number we just have the square footage on the land, but we
don’t have a number on how many chickens you can have. You have to have over a
half acre to have fowl or rabbits.
Pastor: If they have over a half acre, but then they also have some goats. Do you let
your chickens run wild during the day?
Petitioner: They free range in the backyard.
Pastor: I’ve seen them in the front yard. When I was going by Thursday, they were in
the front yard by your garage.
Petitioner: Yeah, I mean we do let them free range.
Pastor: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Duggan: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: To building, how many other types of animals do you know that people house
as pets besides rabbits and like other farm animals besides horses? I mean do people
really have horses in Livonia?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 55 March 6, 2012
DeMeyer: There are some horses I believe on Curtis Road. They came before the
Board to get a barn built and I think they had two horses which they met the
requirement. They were going to excess lot coverage to build a barn to house their
horses.
Duggan: What about like rabbits. Do people have like five rabbits or how many?
DeMeyer: None have been brought to our attention.
Duggan: Okay.
DeMeyer: I know the Petitioner brought it to our plan examiner and our ordinance
officers attention that there are other houses and they had both told her to provide us
with the addresses and we’ll look into it. We don’t go looking for things unless we get
complaints.
Duggan: Is there any farm - like goats or any other random animals that people have?
DeMeyer: None to the department’s knowledge.
Duggan: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: I have a follow-up question. What about kennels, you know, there’s a lot of
kennels in the 5 and 6, Middle Belt and Merriman area. Is that a special ordinance?
DeMeyer: That is a special ordinance and I couldn’t quote the ordinance as what it is.
Henzi: Okay.
DeMeyer: They have to have a licensing for that.
Henzi: And those are generally pretty big lots?
DeMeyer: Yes.
Henzi: Okay. But other than that, you can’t think of any other animal-related
ordinances we might have?
DeMeyer: No.
Henzi: Okay. All right, any other questions?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 55 March 6, 2012
Caramagno: I’ve got one. Do you have any other animals besides the goats and the
chicken and roosters? Do you have any other – no cats, dogs, nothing?
Petitioner: Yeah, I have two cats.
Caramagno: There’s just a couple cats as well.
Petitioner: Yeah, they’re inside.
Caramagno: When I was by there the other day, I noticed between the house and the
garage there’s a piece of plywood leaning against the house and against the garage.
Does that serve as a gate or something, or what is that?
Petitioner: Yeah, we did put that up as a gate until we get a gate put in.
Caramagno: When you say you put that up, you put that up in just the last couple days,
in the last week? When did you put that up?
Petitioner: How long has that been up?
John Laws: I think since November.
Caramagno: I can’t hear you.
John Laws: It’s probably been since November.
Caramagno: Is it on hinges or does it just lean there? How does it fasten?
John Laws: It stays in place by a hinge that we have there until we can afford to get a
proper gate up.
Caramagno: Okay. How long do goats live?
Petitioner: 12 to 14 years.
Caramagno: Same basically as a dog?
Petitioner: Uh-huh.
Caramagno: What do you do with the waste?
Petitioner: We compost.
Caramagno: Compost it how? How do you compost it?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 55 March 6, 2012
Petitioner: Actually like I said, the manure doesn’t need to be composted, but we
compost everything all of our food scraps and everything. We have a compost in the
back.
Caramagno: You have a compost what in the back? Do you have a pit?
Petitioner: Uh-huh.
Caramagno: Do you have a designated area?
Petitioner: Uh-huh. How would you describe it?
John Laws: It’s a compost pit.
Caramagno: How do you collect the goat waste? You said it’s like little M & M’s. How
do you collect it? Do you have a shovel, a broom, a rake, how do you do that?
Petitioner: Do you want to address that?
John Laws: Yes, yes, and yes to get it into the compost pile.
Petitioner: We use a big shovel and a sled and then just put everything in the shovel, I
mean, we rake out weekly and put it on the compost.
Caramagno: I didn’t go back. Is there a separate pen in the area back there?
Petitioner: There’s a pen in the back where they can run and then they’re in the storage
shed where they stay, there’s a pen in there, too.
Caramagno: So you’ve got a fenced in area within the fenced in yard?
Petitioner: Uh-huh.
Caramagno: And how tall is that fence?
Petitioner: It’s made up of cattle panels which are actually they’re standard farm panels
which are to keep in goats or cows and they’re 8 ft. long --
John Laws: I believe they are about 5 ft. high and I think there’s a diagram of that in lay
out of the property there.
Caramagno: So, the pet waste stays within that area then?
Petitioner: Uh-huh.
Caramagno: Goat waste, I should say.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 55 March 6, 2012
Petitioner: Correct.
Caramagno: All right, thank you.
Henzi: Sir, can we have your name and address, please?
John Laws: My name is John Laws and I’m also a resident at 19246 Brentwood Street,
Livonia.
Duggan: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: Are you going to continue to get more animals? What’s your next – this will
be it?
Petitioner: Yeah, this is it.
Duggan: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Why six goats, why not two, why not 12?
Petitioner: Six just kind of seemed like a good number. They’re herd animals so they
need – they live together, they travel together, I mean, they don’t like to be alone. So,
you need at least a few of them to keep each other company and I think 12 would be
just way too many and two wouldn’t be quite enough
Henzi: You heard earlier Mr. Fisher read from the ordinance about instances which are
expressly stated about you can have one horse and one cow, or two horses with a
requisite amount of land and six of those animals are not allowed. Would you be willing
to trim it down to three if there was consensus for that?
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: Okay. Any other questions for the Petitioner?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: You have 3/4 of an acre, give or take, where you’re keeping them in the fenced
in area in the back of your yard that – you say you’ve got 33,000 sq. ft. How many
square feet is that fenced in area?
Laws: It said 110 ft. wide, I believe, is the property and I would estimate that that
fenced in area is maybe 50 ft, 60 ft. so I’m sorry I can’t do the math, 110 by 50 or 60.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 55 March 6, 2012
Pastor: Does that not seem a little small when you’ve got six goats. We’ve got to have
3/4 of an acre for one horse. You have six animals plus 22 chickens that you put on
6,600 sq. ft. Does that not seem a little small to you?
Petitioner: Not compared to a thousand pound horse and the more I’ve gotten to know
goats and what they require, no, it’s ample for them. There’s a lot of times that I will let
them run in the backyard, the length of the backyard and I run with them every day, you
know, a couple lengths of the backyard, but when they’re just out there playing amongst
themselves, they have their secure pen.
Pastor: Do you feed them just the grass or is there food that you feed them?
Petitioner: Mostly they eat alfalfa hay. Ours get an organic feed that we get from Ann
Arbor and they get herbs and supplements, but again, they’re herbivores and they only
have bottom teeth like eight bottom teeth so, you know, they shred things. I mean they
can eat leaves in the summertime, but for the most part year around they eat hay just
like a horse or cow.
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions for the Petitioner?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: You stated earlier that you need about 1/5 of an acre per goat?
Petitioner: They recommend for two adult size goats 1/5 of an acre.
Caramagno: So if they’re based upon what Craig said, it would be kind of tight in that
penned in area for six goats, no?
Petitioner: I mean that’s just, you know, that’s where they go to play and no, it’s not tight
at all. I mean, you’re more than welcome to come see them and meet them and see
how they play.
Caramagno: I might have to look closer, but you used that 1/5 of an acre statistic based
upon your 3/4 of an acre lot, but if you use that same statistic for a penned in area, it’s
nowhere near 3/4 of acre.
Petitioner: But they’re not in their pen all the time.
Caramagno: There’s a great deal of difference there. Your house sits on this ¾ acre,
your front of this 3/4 acre, so really this backyard is not a true 3/4 acre for these goats to
roam. So your statistic while it’s good for the overall piece of property, it’s not as good
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 55 March 6, 2012
for the penned in area in which you keep these goats most of the time. That’s my one
statement and one question.
Petitioner: Okay.
Caramagno: My other is, obviously goats multiply. Do your goats have the potential to
multiply? Do you have male and female goats?
Petitioner: We do.
Caramagno: So, would it be unreasonable to all of a sudden have a couple of goats
pop up one day?
Petitioner: I mean if we had a limit on the number of goats that we had, we would meet
that limit.
Caramagno: How many goats come out of the one birth at a time?
Petitioner: Typically, a single or a double, but I mean, they can have more.
Caramagno: And do they have a certain period of time in which they have to stay with
the mother and grow or is there a period of time in which they rely on the mother for milk
and whatnot?
Petitioner: Some people, you know, sell their baby goats soaking wet right out of the
mom. I mean, other people will keep the babies with the mom for a couple months to
get them off to a good start.
Caramagno: Thank you, again.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Like six where did the number six come from? Are you planning on, you know,
Sam brought up a point that kind of struck me as are you planning on selling goats or is
this a business or – I’m struggling with this.
Petitioner: No, it just really just seemed like a good number for them. We had, you
know, I mean obviously we started out with one and that didn’t work because he needed
a friend. So, the more we learned about goats we realized that they need to be
together, they need to be with a herd, they’re herd animals and it just works for them.
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: When were the photos taken that are attached to our packet?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 55 March 6, 2012
Petitioner: Last summer I believe, summer and fall.
Henzi: Any other questions for the Petitioner? Hearing none, okay. Are there people
who want to speak on this topic in the audience? If so, come on up to the table and I
am anticipating that there will be many audience speakers so I will try and watch the
clock and limit everybody to two minutes. Go ahead and to all audience speakers,
please give us your name and address before speaking.
Saylor: My name is Briana Saylor, 19306 Brentwood, Livonia, Michigan 48152. We
actually live next door to Kathy and on several occasions my mother has told them to
please get their goats and chickens out of our yard. We’ve had their goats on our front
lawn. I’ve had friends come over to get out of their cars and their goats are in our
driveway and greeting them. We’ve had chickens fly over or on to our fence and then
fly into our yard. My mother actually wrote a letter. She’s not here right now she’s away
on business. I don’t know if you guys got it. There are also pictures that were in there
as well that I also have with me if you guys would like to see them. It shows all the
animals in the backyard as well as in our front yard running across our yard, in our
backyard, on our fence where they like to crow. I’m also woken up in the middle of the
night or more so in the early morning to crowing and I also counted earlier today before
I came in that they have at least 40 chickens in their yard and we hear them all
throughout the day including the goats. I’m trying to think, oh, I was going to mention
that with the whole organic food thing that we actually spray pesticides on to our lawn
and the roosters and chickens come into our yard and eat our grass so in general it’s
just going back over into their food that they are receiving. And also in the summertime
there is a lot of dust. Sometimes there are bonfires that involve leaves that blow into
our yard and it’s just not a very nice sight. They took down all the trees that blocked
their yard from our yard so now we see clearly into their yard, into the dirt, into the
animals, the fences, you know, all the stuff that is going on over there.
Henzi: Thank you.
Saylor: You’re welcome.
Matt Saylor: My name is Matt Saylor. I live at 19306 Brentwood. My mom is Karen
Saylor. This is my sister. About a year it seems like when the animals started showing
up their grass in their backyard started disappearing, turning into dirt to dust. During the
summertime it does smell like a farm. I like to cook outside and bar-b-que. It smells so
bad I don’t even want to do that because I don’t want to eat food that I’ve been smelling
farm manure whatever the smell may be. I’ve never seen – since I’ve lived there, since
I was here in the third grade over 17 years we’ve lived there I’ve never seen any
animals but maybe a cat in their yard. If they ever had any other chickens that I’ve
witnessed – goats I mean I’ve seen them out on Seven Mile before. Cars have stopped
on Brentwood and kids, of course, they’re intrigued they run up to them but goats also
carry diseases like any other wild animals or reptiles, I mean anything carry diseases
which isn’t good. And if their medicals aren’t kept up, I mean, anything can happen.
Like I said, I’ve seen the goats on our front door. When I pull in my driveway and they
are standing on our porch eating the leaves off the plants next door. The backyard
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 55 March 6, 2012
doesn’t look appealing. If my mom wants to sell her house, it’s going to be really tough.
Who wants to live next door to something that looks like that and smells like that. She
would be here today like in her note she writes to you guys and she has logged times.
She has been woken up on Sunday’s at six in the morning. We’ve heard them at 4:30
in the morning before - I can hear them and I’m on the other side of the house. That’s
pretty much all I have to say besides the roosters crowing there’s a lot of chickens. I’ve
seen over 100 of them last summer when they first started this operation. It doesn’t
look good, it doesn’t smell good, and it doesn’t look good in Livonia I think and there’s a
school right down the street. We’re trying to represent a nice neighborhood and then
you see that it doesn’t look very well.
Henzi: Thank you.
Fred Thurston: I’m Fred Thurston. I live at 19291 Lathers Street so I’ve got the
property right behind them and I actually like having the goats there. My kids, I have
two young kids, they can walk over there, feed them a little bit of hay. The kids are
really happy with that. The goats have never jumped over the fence. I don’t know how
the goats are getting through maybe, maybe it’s through the gate or something, but they
have never been on my property. They seem friendly. Things like diseases I’m not too
concerned about that. I bring my kids to the Kensington Petting Farm they’ve got goats
there so it seems like goats are pretty safe animals. Again, you’ve never heard of
anybody getting bit by a goat before so I don’t worry about my kids. There’s dogs, you
know, I would worry more about leaning up against a fence and stuff with my kids, but
not the goats. And I’ve never noticed a smell. I’ve heard the roosters crowing, but I
think it’s a lot more pleasant hearing roosters crowing than a big truck driving down the
road or somebody with a loud exhaust, some hot rod so I think it’s pretty nice having the
goats there.
Henzi: Thank you.
Mary Fife: My name is Mary Fife. I live at 19321 Lathers and I would be a rear
neighbor and I live within the 300 ft. of the farm. I don’t find that the chickens or the
goats have never been in my yard. I myself like them, too, and so I would like to
support them their endeavors.
Henzi: Thank you.
Kristina Firth: My name is Kristina Firth. I live at 28290 Seven Mile and my backyard
butts up to Kathryn’s backyard and I actually support her as well. I’ve never smelled
anything bad coming from her yard and I’m often in the back of my yard right next to the
back of her yard where her compost is and I’ve never had any animals in my backyard
from her yard. And I also just want to mention that a lot of the kids from the
neighborhood actually go over there and I think that it is a positive thing for them to see
to come over and be educated and have something positive to do.
Henzi: What’s your address one more time?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 55 March 6, 2012
Kristina Firth: 28290 Seven Mile.
Henzi: Thank you.
Maxine Bibik: Maxine Bibik, 19516 Brentwood. I live right behind Botsford Elementary
School. I have known Kathy’s parents for years. I’ve known Kathy for a long time. I
have one question. How many male goats do you have?
Petitioner: I have one.
Maxine Bibik: They don’t give milk and cheese and stuff like that.
Petitioner: No, they’re pets.
Maxine Bibik: Okay. I have typed up this letter I want to read. It tells everything I’ve
got. I’ve got copies here if you want copies of it. I’m here to support the Saylor family
and what they’ve had to put up with. (letter read).
Giovanna: Wow, wow, big talk there. That’s really compassionate.
Henzi: Let’s not let this denigrated into something personal.
Giovanna: No, not at all. I’m just listening. It’s like – wow.
Henzi: Go ahead.
Rachel Murray: All right. I’m Rachel Murray. I actually live out in Pleasant Lake. I,
myself, also have goats and horses and I can tell you that goats are not large animals.
They do not turn up the ground. Anywhere where a horse walks you’re going to see dirt
and the footprints from a horse whether it be grass or dirt. They turn up mud and I’m
talking deep mud. Now my goats, I also have six goats, no mud no dirt. They actually
eat the brush and the weeds that are undesirable. They have taken out all my
blackberries that I have had problems with. They have taken out all the leaves that I
don’t like. As far as diseases, the only disease that you’re really going to get from a
goat comes from the milk. Now as far as cruelty to animal, I know Kathryn from a farm
that she runs on Facebook, “Totally Nature Goats.” She is one of the most caring
people about her animals any little thing that comes up and she is more concerned.
That’s all.
Henzi: Thank you.
Angela Firth: Hi, my name is Angela Firth. I live at 14144 Beatrice and my sister lives
right behind the residence. I have had some luxuries of spending some times on dairy
farms growing up and it has been wonderful. What I have seen with these goats is
fantastic. My children have had the opportunity to go on over there and visit these
goats and as I look around me and look at the rural heritage that Livonia is founded on it
is deeply concerning to me that this is objectionable and inhumane by any means.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 55 March 6, 2012
These goats have a playscape for heaven sakes. They are treated with the most
kindness and dignity and the betterment of Livonia for these goats should at least be
looked into. We have a learning opportunity for the community and for the children that
exists in the community. And when you listen to the amount of waste that is exhibited by
these animals, it is a rabbit-size pellet that smells of grass; would I be correct in that
assumption. I’ve seen it. They don’t speak too loudly. They are playful. The children
love it. I think we should explore the opportunity of the betterment of Livonia by
initializing something so wonderful as bringing back to rural farming here. What an
opportunity, what an economic opportunity we could be affording both as a community
and as this family is trying to do and that’s all I have to say?
Henzi: Anybody else?
Amada Stefaniak: My name is Amanda Stefaniak. I live on 19305 Brentwood kitty
corner across the street from Kathryn. I have a three year old and a one year old. They
play with the goats. I don’t have a problem with it. They are wonderful. It doesn’t
smell. That’s it.
Henzi: Thank you. Anyone else? Come on up.
Murad Ismailo: My name is Murad Ismailo and I have been the closest neighbor to
Kathryn and John. Our backyard is connected to their backyard.
Henzi: What is your address?
Murad Ismailo: 28310 Seven Mile Road. What I have observed during the summertime
or fall time and now it’s wintertime, these animals bring a kind of life to the community.
I’m an expert on diesel engines and I can tell you how dangerous to the health issues
diesel engines and pollutions. With regard to these animals, they attracting all children,
small children, school children that come to the farm looking for these goats, for
chickens, for plants. Everything is very well organized and what is interesting in this
farm so you have a complete sack of no waste everything is recycled, it’s clean. For
just protective measures, in the middle of July I advised them to have a fence just in
case the goats not going to other backyards and it’s done. It’s done properly,
everything works. Sometimes, of course, chickens fly over this fence, but it’s very rare.
No goats going, you know, outside of the area designated for them. The development
and I would say quite healthy animals, quite healthy. It’s the nature of human being that
these kids will go farther to school and then to job, to army, to many other things, and
these days for them will be forever the best happiness in life. And if you can see on one
side we are giving to these kids a perfect, perfect experience with nature, to be close to
the nature, to know how it’s growing, how it’s processing and, you know, just even to
touch the goats for the kids I saw them. They are laughing, they’re happy and that’s
important for the community.
Henzi: Thank you.
Murad Ismailo: Okay. Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 55 March 6, 2012
Henzi: Anybody else?
Giovanna: I didn’t sign in but my name is Giovanna. I don’t live in the City of Livonia,
but I am here to speak for a lot of people that are like John and Kathryn. I have known
them for not very long, but I apologize for being abrupt about your mouth full because I
heard a lot there. I know that there’s mixed feelings here. I don’t know how many of
you on this panel are animal lovers, but I myself I love animals, but I don’t like cats and
there’s a lot things that we don’t like. I don’t like cats roaming in my yard, but they get
out. W e all know that there’s going to be a stray cat from time to time. I grew up in
Detroit. I would love to see some of the urban things that they’re doing for the inner-city
kids that these kids have the opportunity to see. I’m a very detail-orientated person. I’m
very meticulous. Going to Kathryn’s house, I love seeing goats and I love seeing the
animals, but I do have a side of me that agrees with some of you about the plywood
between the garage and the house and, you know, this young lady speaking with her
feelings about her unborn child and the health issues that a lot of people are expressing
here. What I’m gathering from all of this is we need to come to a solution because this
is a caring person that cares about what she’s doing and what she’s trying to do to help
other people that are trying to achieve that goal of urban farming. I’m looking at all
these pictures on your walls this is what this area used to exemplify, but now we’re in
this modern technology world where nobody wants to deal with farming and what she’s
talking about rooster cock-a-doodle do doing in the morning. This gentleman talked
about – what was it the work that you were talking about? I drive a truck. I ride a
motorcycle. I’m more apt at being killed by that or a person that hit me while I’m on the
sidewalk on my bicycle, but as far as the waste or things that they’re talking about the
feces. What I see happening here is she needs a little bit a help not just to say take
away this woman’s dream because we all have needs and wants and if everybody
would be there for their neighbor and talk about it. Did you go to Kathryn and talk about
the problem that you have?
Unidentified Speaker: Me?
Giovanna: Yeah. You were on the news that’s how I found out about this. I didn’t even
find out about it.
Matt Saylor: My mother went over there plenty of times.
Giovanna: You’re a community. We’re talking about all the separation in the world but
everybody needs to come to a solution.for the problem not pull everybody apart. Come
together and talk about these things just like you brought your issues here, talk to each
other. Maybe you could come to a solution. I frequent Zerbo’s all the time because I’m
in Livonia all the time. I love the stuff that they sell there but it’s high end. I can’t afford
everything in there that I want, but people like her trying to do the eggs and the fresh
food and the organic, that’s me. Back to the basics, thank you, you got the words right
out of my mouth. My grandmother she suffered through the Depression. She came
from the old country. I gardened instead of playing outside with all my friends. I love
doing that kind of stuff but we’ve gotten away from the basics. The kids of today are
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 55 March 6, 2012
they carrying on tradition? No, they’re not, they’re doing I-phoning and facebooking and
nobody is picking up the phone and saying, hey, Kathryn –
Henzi: All right, ma’am. I let you go beyond.
Giovanna: Okay.
Henzi: Anything you want to say in closing.
Giovanna: Yeah, work together instead of working against each other.
Bibik: I think one big think that everybody is missing out on is the next door neighbor is
within 15 ft. of her house and you don’t raise chickens or goats directly behind your
house. It is too close to the neighbor’s house.
Gioavanna: So, what can you do to –
Henzi: You made that point. We’re getting to the point where we’re repeating so I’d like
to know whether there is anyone who hasn’t spoken that would like to say something for
or against the project and we’ll continue with that.
Ed Chambers: Hi, my name is Ed Chambers. I live 19568 Brentwood. I grew up on a
farm in Romulus. We had everything so I can relate to her and I can relate to that lady
about the wall, too. I do see the goats out periodically and the chickens. To probably
solve this problem is putting up a privacy fence. I think that would solve the issue with
the dust flying, clip the chicken wings so they can’t be flying all over. I think that would
be a reasonable solution.
Henzi: Thank you.
Pastor: Excuse me.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Sir, you think you’ve seen the goats outside of their fence?
Chambers: Yes.
Pastor: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Okay, does anybody else want to speak for or against?
Jamie Barr: I stay at 19306 Brentwood.
Henzi: What is your name?
Jamie Barr: Jamie Barr.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 55 March 6, 2012
Henzi: Go ahead.
Jamie Barr: I, also just wanted to say I love animals. I was a girl scout. I always went
on the farms and everything. I love riding horses. It’s not about that. I think there
needs to be a limit if she’s going to have the chickens and roosters because they do get
out of the yard, you know, they’re running around. We have to shoo them out. And as
for the smell, people say there’s no smell. We’re right there the wind blows, being
pregnant, I don’t know who’s pregnant in here, but get a big smell. You smell things
more and I smell it and it gives me nausea .It’s not fun to smell and then have to get
sick. I don’t have to have to be cooped up in the house all day. I want, you know, it
was a nice day today I don’t want to not be able to be in my backyard. As for the
children, we’ve seen children in the backyard playing with an axe with no supervision. I
don’t think that’s safe, you know, running around back there. There needs to be
supervision. If there are going to be children back there, just like a petting zoo or
whatnot, children need to have supervision. They just can’t be running around in the
backyard, but I think that’s it.
Henzi: Okay. Anybody else?
Steve Giertych: My name is Steve Giertych. I live at 19578 Brentwood. I recently
bought a house here in September of 2010. This happens to be my neighbor and when
I pull in that driveway to look at this house because I was going to buy it. And he had a
yard full of goats and chickens and the mess that was in the yard I would of kept on
going. I would have never bought in that neighborhood. I take pride in myself, I keep
my yard looking nice and everything mowed and everything. But, the case down there
you drive by you see nothing but a mud hole. I do have some pictures in my pocket.
They’re my own personal pictures. I lived in Texas for a while and I had two acres. I
raised chickens. I had them in an enclosed pen. They had a separate area, covered
chicken wire, you know, top. I know this is about goats not chickens, but you have to
take care of your animals you can’t let them run all over the place. I thought it was
pretty cool, you know, neighbors didn’t have a problem with. I had one rooster and they
said they didn’t have a problem with that. Out of respect for that after the chickens
started happening, hatching their eggs, you know, I kept living on them. As soon as the
roosters learned to crow, that’s when their heads came off because you don’t want a
bunch of roosters crowing. I thought it was fun. Okay. I said, well, I’m going to get
some goats so to help them eat. I had two miniature grey goats and a bigger nanny
goat. The miniature ones were both males. It was going to feed them until they were
old enough to sell, you know, if somebody wanted to slaughter them. I couldn’t get rid
of those goats fast enough. They were the stinkiest animals that I ever had around
especially the male goats. If you don’t get them fixed or neutered, everybody is talking
about the feces, the pellets, that’s one thing but you’re talking about the urination. Male
goats have a tendency to go around and mark their territory including spraying
themselves and everything around. I had to get rid of them because the stink was
unbearable and I had them in a separate pen in the back of my little ranch out there. I
thought the goats would kill the grass and keep everything neat and clean, but they ate
everything but what I wanted them to, bark off the trees, you know, cable wires if they
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 55 March 6, 2012
got out of the pen. They ate the vinyl springs off the windows the one time that they got
out. They are, you know, pretty destructive. So, I’m not against anyone having goats,
but you know, keep them in – keep things clean, keep them in an enclosure. If you’ve
got chickens and I know it’s not about chickens, but you have to keep them contained,
too, you have to have laying area because otherwise they are going to be laying eggs in
peoples’ backyards. You will have varmints, coons. You can have eggs spoiling
because the chickens – just because they lay eggs doesn’t mean they are going to sit
there and try to hatch them.
Henzi: Anything in closing?
Steve Girdish: No, that’s all I have.
Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else?
Kathleen Poplar: I do.
Henzi: Sure.
Kathleen Poplar: I live at 20220 Purlingbrook Street in Livonia. It’s a rural urban farm
area. I’m not directly connected to this particular matter.
Henzi: What’s your name?
Kathleen Poplar: I’m sorry.
Henzi: Your name, please.
Kathleen Poplar: Kathleen Poplar. The issue I see is that this could open the flood
gates to others that maybe won’t take care of their animals. I understand from stories
and people closely connected to this is that goats are getting out as are the chickens,
but this is not about the chickens. I think overall we need to look at the property
conditions and things like that because we are looking at the real estate value. And just
as this gentleman said, you know, if that had been there he wouldn’t have bought. So
that’s a concern because again just not one variance, but flood gates for others I know
that maybe there’s other goats in Livonia that haven’t been brought to your attention.
But if these ordinances were passed back in the day and there were barns and things
like, there were animals and they considered that and they decided that horses and
cows or whatever milk for whatever purpose was okay as are the rabbits and the
chickens as long as the chickens are properly kept I think, you know, that it’s right it’s in
the ordinance. So this is something really to be brought through the legislation to have
the legislation changed, the ordinance changed instead of one variance it really needs
to be something to be looked at by City Council pass something city wide for or against
and there are a lot of reasons for and against that and I am looking at it and I think that
there are more reasons against than for because again in this particular situation even
though they are already being taken care of and fed organically and things like, they are
not being properly kept. There’s apparently a plywood gate. I’ve seen two other
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 55 March 6, 2012
businesses come before you with drawings and specs and you talked about bricks and
landscaping and specifics to keep Livonia looking nice so we can’t really just let anyone,
you know, let their backyard become barren because that does affect the neighbors and
that is a concern of mine. Again, being in a rural urban farm citizen. Thank you.
Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else?
Joseph Olevario: I’d like to say something. I’m at 19305 Brentwood and --
Henzi: Your name, sir.
Joseph Oliverio: Joseph Oliverio and we live across the street. And for us, I look at it
as, it’s better to be more self-sufficient because during harsh times or saying we get a
black out or anything you may be needing food. She has already. She has eggs, she
can produce her own food and that’s more important as it’s good to be self-reliable and
everybody keeps talking about how Livonia used to be an urban farming community and
we should get away from that now but you should keep your roots. You should keep
your traditions because that’s what makes a community strong. And also neighbors
should all try and look out for each other and try to put all matters between each other
and I believe that’s important and be courteous to each other and just try to be
understanding.
Henzi: Thank you.
Joseph Oliverio: It’s good for kids and it’s good for the neighborhood kids to interact
with animals and get them away from the T.V. get them away from their phones.
Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else?
Kelly Karl: I wasn’t going to speak but I decided I should. My name is Kelly Karl. I live
on the corner house at 28340 Seven Mile so my house looks directly at the front of their
house. I don’t get a good view of their backyard so I can’t really speak to conditions in
the backyard and the pen and what have you, but I don’t have as much as an issue with
the goats as I do with the way that they are being taken of. And it’s like everybody else
said, I know this is just about the goats, but I think it’s really a lot more about the
chickens and the free roaming. With me living on the corner house, I’ll admit and I don’t
have a problem with Kathryn, but I’ll admit that I have come home on more than a
dozen occasions and found the goats on Brentwood, the chickens in the middle or the
street running down the street. I had a chicken under my van last Saturday in my
driveway. There’s a chicken on Seven Mile. I’m more concerned about somebody
getting into a car accident. That is a street that has a school on it, it is a street that goes
through from Seven to Eight, it is a high-volume street and coming right around the
corner off of Seven Mile you do not expect a chicken or a goat to jump out in front of
your car. So as much as I don’t have an issue per se with the goats, in a sense I have
an issue with them being not contained. And I know it has been brought up about the
plywood fencing and I what have you and I know that they, you know, they are making
progress there, but I think before something like that can happen those things like the
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 55 March 6, 2012
gating and what have you need to be taken care of. My biggest concern is that they are
free roaming the chickens and the goats on many occasions. The goats haven’t been
as much lately as they were last summer, but I am very concerned. I am an animal lover
and I don’t what to come home to see a dead goat in the street. So, it’s a bigger issue
to me than just about being able to keep the goats and your right to farm. It’s properly
containing them and keeping them in the safety of everybody around them and I do
agree with some respecting your neighbors, but it kind of goes each way and I think that
certain things do need to be done if they are allowed to keep these animals.
Henzi: Thank you. Anybody else? It looks like that’s it. Are there any letters?
Caramagno: Are there letters. What I will do is I call off the name first and if you spoke
tonight just tell me you spoke and I won’t read your letter. That will save us some
repeating. Carmela Hoffmann objection [28300 Seven Mile Road (letter was read).
Holly Gorton from [10100 U.S. Hwy.127 Addison, Mi](letter was read). Jamie Anderson
(letter was read). Lisa Koesten [54855 Sherwood Ln, Shelby Twp., MI 48315] (letter
was read). Stephen Giertyck [19578 Brentwood] (letter was read). Robert P.
Alexander [19534 Brentwood] (letter was read). Donna Pierce-Chambers [19568
Brentwood] (letter was read). Arnold R. Weingart (letter read). Thurston [19291
Lathers] (letter was read). Karen Saylor [19306 Brentwood] (letter was read). Kathleen
(& Geraldine Crumb [28230 Seven Mile Rd] (letter was read). Cliff Gordon [28220
Seven Mile Road] (letter was read). Kevin (& Amy) Smith [19245 Brentwood] (letter
was read). Steven Holsten [20210 Middle Belt Road](letter was read). Matt Young
[20210 Middle Belt Road] (letter was read). Christine Lynn Young [20210 Middle Belt
Road] (letter was read). Kevin Rosco [1948 Mayfield] (letter was read). Doug Talon
[8300 Roland Dr. Blanchard, MI] (letter was read). Wendy Tenny [Montgomery, Texas]
(letter was read).
Henzi: Is that it?
Caramagno: Yes.
Henzi: Mr. Fisher, I had a question for you. Why doesn’t this Petitioner have to go to
City Council to petition for an amendment for the ordinance?
Fisher: Well, in a sense, we could say that to every one of our Petitioners especially in
use-variance situations. I guess the answer to that is you could tell her that, you could
adopt a resolution saying that you were tabling this action until pending resolution by
City Council of this issue.
Henzi: And the other question I had, I just want to clear up from the public notice is this
a request for a use variance or a request to reverse an administrative ruling or both?
Fisher: Let me give you a little background about the administrative ruling authority.
There was a reference earlier this evening to a couple of pigs, actually this Board has
only to my recollection heard one case of a pot-bellied pig and the reason that
happened was because the second pig went to court instead and Judge Brzezinski
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 55 March 6, 2012
ruled that a pot-bellied pig was equal to a dog or cat and you just keep it as a pet. So,
there has never been another pig back before this Board as a result. This Board is, of
course, a quasi-judicial body tasked with among other things interpreting the Zoning
Ordinance. You have as much authority to make that kind of decision as Judge
Brezinski did or as one of the current judges does. So if you want to make that
decision, you’re certainly welcome to. Alternatively, if you interpret the Zoning
Ordinance as the Inspection Department has done, i.e. no goats then Ms. Trestain
obviously needs a use variance or she needs to get rid of the goats.
Henzi: Okay. Good explanation. Thank you. Okay, Ms. Trestain, you have the
opportunity to respond and make a closing statement.
Petitioner: We’ve heard from people on both sides of the issue and basically it is pretty
controversial. And I am willing to work with you and I’m willing to work with anybody to
maintain my pets. I think that, you know, it was just the same if I was coming to you ask
for a dog or a cat or whatever. I guess my biggest issue, and I really didn’t want to get
personal, but I have some problems. I believe that the issues with Karen Saylor next
door are personal, they’re hugely personal. She has five cats right now and two dogs.
In that house they have iguanas, hedge hogs, raccoons, snakes. My goats are better
cared for – I mean my goats live in a more sanitary environment than that home. That
home has feral cats living in it. We have video, we have photos of the inside of the
home. Her third husband left because of how disgusting the home was so I have huge
issues with that and I think that’s a huge personal issue and it may have to go to court.
I think it’s an abuse of process. I think it’s a harassment issue and it’s not about goats.
Henzi: Anything else?
Petitioner: With regards to the goats being in the street, the goats have been walked in
the street, I mean, I know where my goats are and they haven’t been out in Brentwood
or Seven Mile in months. They were never in Seven Mile, they been walked down
Seven Mile. They did get into Brentwood when I first got them and that’s all been –
we’ve got a pen in the back and that’s all been taken care of, but I am willing to work
with you on anything. I’m willing to work with the neighbors. I want to have a happy
neighborhood.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I asked you earlier today if the animals had been in anybody else’s yard, you
said no. Now you’re saying they have been out. I don’t understand.
Petitioner: No, I’m going back to --
Pastor: Tell me the truth now.
Petitioner: I’m going back to the time when I first got them.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 55 March 6, 2012
Pastor: You know what, I didn’t ask you when you first got or if it was today. I asked if
they had ever been out of your yard and you told me no, so what is the truth?
Petitioner: Yeah, I mean, I was trying to be deceptive or lie to you.
Pastor: Well, it sounds like it to me.
Petitioner: Okay, well, I apologize. I’m just trying to get a handle on this and we’ve
talked about – people mentioned goats on Seven Mile and I mean if goats were going
down Seven Mile, they were on leashes being walked.
Pastor: Some of your neighbors have said they have been out in the street and I
believe that they weren’t all the same incidents.
Petitioner: I guess I would ask them, I mean show me, prove it.
Pastor: Okay, I’ll ask you, prove it. Prove that it wasn’t. That’s an easy one for me to
say.
Petitioner: I mean, come to my home see where they are.
Pastor: Thank you, that’s all for right now.
Henzi: Anything else? Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: I’ve got a question. Ms. Trestain, one of the letters indicated that you’ve
got a tree removal company bringing trees and dumping them in your yard. Does that
happen?
Petitioner: No, I don’t have a tree removal company.
Caramagno: Do you have somebody else that brings trees to your yard and dumps
them in your yard for the animals to eat?
Petitioner: No.
Caramagno: Why would they say that about you?
Petitioner: There was a lady next to Fred and Sabine. We called her the cat lady and
she had a whole bunch of feral cats. Her house was condemned and the neighbor next
door, Joe, bought that property and he cleared it last year and he asked some of the
neighbors if we wanted some wood and so he brought some wood and we used it for
fire during the summer when we were having bonfires and that’s all I can think of.
Caramagno: That wouldn’t happen to be some of the logs and tree branches you have
laying in your yard right now; it’s not that same stuff, is it?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 55 March 6, 2012
Petitioner: Probably. I mean, it was a one-time thing when he brought that and he may
have given wood to other neighbors. I think Christina got wood for her fire. I mean it
had nothing --
Caramagno: There seems to be a lot of people that are talking or making up stories
about you and you deny all of these stories yet there’s a variety that the chickens are
here, the chickens are there, the goats are in the street Seven Mile Road, Brentwood,
someone is dumping branches, they’re not dumping branches. There’s a lot
discrepancies in the story. Do you see that or am I just hearing things here?
Petitioner: Oh, yeah, I do. I mean, a lot of these things I haven’t heard, I mean I didn’t
hear of until tonight. And I think, you know, when you’re not communicating, when
you’re not talking to people like if people would just come to me, I mean I would discuss
it with them. I have no idea why people said, you know, I have a tree company or I’m
having, you know, companies bring --
Caramagno: I don’t remember the exact language. I read the letter, I remember reading
- I remembered as I read it hearing about it and certainly we don’t want debris being
brought into your yard so the goats can eat.
Petitioner: The goats have nothing to do with the – no, no, absolutely not. It had
nothing to do with the goats. It was wood. It was logs goats don’t even eat wood.
Caramagno: Wood for what?
Petitioner: A fire.
Caramagno: Why is it laying in the yard? Why are big logs laying in the yard? I don’t
understand that. Is that for the goats to lay on or climb over?
Petitioner: No, it has nothing to do with the goats. It was like I said, Joe was getting rid
of some firewood and so we put it in the backyard for fires and it really had nothing to do
– and there was some mention about the grass. Goats don’t even eat grass and that
was just from rototilling our lawn, rototilling our yard so we could put grass seed in in the
spring.
Caramagno: Okay.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I know this is not about chickens, but how many chickens did you say you have
because I heard someone mentioned a figure of over a hundred at one time?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 55 March 6, 2012
Petitioner: I’ve heard all different numbers and I’m going to defer to John on it to get an
exact amount if you know the exact amount.
John Laws: I don’t know the exact amount, but I believe it’s close to 40 birds.
Petitioner: And how many are going to the processor?
John Laws: I believe between nine and 12 roosters.
Pastor: I’m sorry, what was that?
John Laws: Between nine and 12 roosters are going to be processed as soon as we
can afford to get it done.
Pastor: Thank you.
Petitioner: It wasn’t a matter of affording it, it was that the processors aren’t open in the
winter and when I called them to make an appointment last month, she said well we’re
not going to open until April, but as soon as we have enough birds we could do it in
March if we got enough so she had a waiting list.
Pastor: Thank you.
Duggan: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: Did you say you were looking into getting more roosters; is that what you were
just saying?
Petitioner: No, no.
Duggan: I missed that. Then you’re trying to get processed?
Petitioner: Processed, yeah, I don’t want to do it myself on my property so we take
them to a processor in Fowlerville.
Duggan: Okay, sorry, I missed that. And I have one more question on one of the one’s
talking about how your chickens getting attacked by dogs in the neighboring properties.
Has that happened other than the one time or is it --
Petitioner: No, that did happen with Carmela when the chickens were little and it was
really horrible situation. They got through the fence and so we put up, oh gosh, it was
like a mesh that we put over the fence to keep the chickens. We had a privacy fence
but we put mesh over so that no chickens could get through the fence.
Duggan: Okay, thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 55 March 6, 2012
Henzi: Is this a for-profit venture the processing of birds?
Petitioner: No.
Henzi: If you send nine to 12 to the processor, are you going to replace them with nine
to 12?
Petitioner: No. What happened when we got the laying hens, they give you chickens
that are unsexed and so you don’t know if they’re going to turn out to be boys or girls.
They’re unsexed little chickens, little chicks, baby fluffy yellow chicks and, you know,
some have started to lay eggs and some have found their voice and their voice and
they’re on their way.
Henzi: Mike, as a follow up. I know we’re not here to talk about chickens, but it’s
overwhelming that a lot of the complaints are about the fowl in this backyard. What
does the ordinance say, I know it is silent as to the number, but does it require a coop
because there’s quite a difference between 60 free-range chickens on a street like
Brentwood and somebody’s got a coop with a dozen birds.
Fisher: Well, I don’t think - at the time that the ordinance was written which was
probably decades ago at this point because certainly nothing in the 17 years that I’ve
been here there has been no change to this ordinance provision. I don’t think they
envisioned going into that level of detail because I certainly didn’t. They basically gave
you, I guess, permission to erect an accessory building or structure to take care of your
animals, but they didn’t tell you that you had to.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: We did go through – we worked with ordinance enforcement as far as – and
I guess there’s a person I’m not sure of his last name. They called him John, the
country boy, in the ordinance enforcement office and he’s the one that worked with us
on the coop and how to erect the coop and where to put it and everything.
Henzi: It needs some more work because it doesn’t work. That’s my problem.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Do you have a separate coop for the chickens and another room or that shed
for the goats?
Petitioner: Uh-huh, we do.
Pastor: I don’t remember seeing a coop on this property. Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 55 March 6, 2012
Henzi: Any other questions?
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: I think before the Board goes through and says how they feel about this, in your
statement when you came back to the table was that you would be willing to work with
whatever. So, after you’ve heard all the problems that your neighbors have and
objections, what would you offer that you would do to improve this whole situation?
Petitioner: Thank you for asking that question. Thank you, I really appreciate it and I
would be open to taking any suggestions and to working with anybody. I think the idea
that came up of a privacy fence is a very good one and I’m not sure if it was Winston
Churchill or who it was said: “Fences make good neighbors.” So, I think that maybe a
higher privacy fence where you can’t see in the yard would be a good solution and a
good start. I think the plywood gate definitely needs to be resolved. A gate needs to be
there rather than the plywood. I think it’s working, but I think it has the appearance that
it’s not working. Somebody mentioned the wings being clipped. I think that’s huge.
The roosters will be gone so I think that’s a non-issue and they are not going to be
replaced. We have the hens that lay. Was there anything else that you can think of that
somebody mentioned?
Aloe: In order for a privacy fence, would you be willing to pay for a privacy fence?
Petitioner: I would.
Aloe: Okay. And then that would also require you going to all of your neighbors well,
the one’s that adjoin your property, because you’d have to take down all this fencing
because you can’t have --
Petitioner: Well, the only one that I think that a fence would work – I’m not sure how
that would work because most of the neighbors around me except for the one neighbor
to the left of me has asked that we not even have a fence. Well, there was Carmela –
that was the issue, but like we have neighbors they put up a privacy fence, a huge
privacy fence and they left the corner open so that they could see the goats and they
have a huge privacy fence the corner is open. So, I think sitting down with all of my
neighbors maybe at a dinner table, you know, if that’s even realistic would be how I
would want to approach it and then bring our resolution to you.
Aloe: How about reducing the size of your animals, the amount of animals that you
have? I mean, do you see that this is excessive for the property that you have and who
you live around?
Petitioner: I do.
Aloe: So, what would you do with that?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 55 March 6, 2012
Petitioner: Well, we mentioned the processing of the roosters – yeah that would
eliminate the noise and I think the hens even clipping the wings of the hens.
Aloe: 40 chickens, I mean, and roosters on a property the size of yours, I mean, it’s
excessive. I don’t care if you clip their wings or what that’s a lot of animals back there
birds or whatever you want to call them.
Petitioner: I mean if 20 of them are gone then that leaves 20 laying hens.
Aloe: Say 20, you’d be willing to go to 20 chickens and how many roosters?
Petitioner: There’s only one rooster that I would keep.
Aloe: And one rooster you’d keep?
Petitioner: His name is Charlie and --
Aloe: What about your goats?
Petitioner: I think it would be reasonable to take it down to four goats. For the sake of
the goats, I wouldn’t want to go any lower than that because they need each other.
Aloe: How much does a goat weigh?
Petitioner: Anywhere from 50 to 100 lbs. My goats are about 80 lbs.
Aloe: All right, thank you.
Henzi: Anything else?
Caramagno: I’ve got another other question here. What do you do with all those eggs?
Petitioner: Mostly give them away.
Caramagno: How many eggs you give away a week?
Petitioner: We eat a lot of eggs and --
John Laws: It’s been averaging maybe a dozen a week. We’ve got a lot of eggs to give
way right now. We’re back --
Caramagno: A dozen a week.
John Laws: Yeah, I know.
Caramagno: You know what?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 55 March 6, 2012
John Laws: We have like 20 dozen eggs right now that we’ve got to get rid of that we
know people that want them that are away – we’ve just got to give them to friends that
we know.
Caramagno: A dozen a week seems awful light.
John Laws: Yeah, I know, you’re right, it is.
Caramagno: I’ve got a friend that’s got a couple chickens. He’s got a dozen even two
days.
Petitioner: Right. Well, these are going to be meat chickens so –
Caramagno: How are they producing eggs?
Petitioner: The girls are, the boys aren’t.
Caramagno: You’ve got hundreds of eggs that have got to be coming out of there.
What are you doing with them?
Petitioner: Eating them like I said giving them to friends.
Caramagno: Oh, come on, nobody is eating that many eggs. What are you doing with
all those eggs?
John Laws: We only get between nine and 12 eggs per day from the hens that we
have. Is that reasonable?
Caramagno: I don’t know. It seems light to me.
John Laws: That’s what we’re getting.
Caramagno: Giving them away.
Petitioner: Ask Amanda she comes over and gets eggs whenever she wants.
Amanda: I only get like two cartons a week.
Caramagno: So what happens to the other 20 dozen eggs or whatever you say you
have?
John Laws: Do you know anybody who wants some?
Caramagno: Do the goats eat them?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 55 March 6, 2012
Petitioner: No, sometimes we feed them back to the chickens. I don’t know what you’re
getting at – are you saying that I’m selling the eggs?
Caramagno: No, I’m just wondering what you do with the product.
Petitioner: Oh, it’s for us, it’s for our food. It’s not a business if that’s what you mean.
John Laws: We have friends who want eggs. We get their eggs for them. We have a
lot more eggs that we have friends to give them to right now.
Caramagno: You’ve got a lot of friends here.
John Laws: If they want eggs, we got eggs.
Caramagno: Thank you.
Henzi: Anything else? Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the
Board’s comments with Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I thank you very much, Mr. Chair. As this proposal sits, I am not willing to
support it, nor am I willing to negotiate over at this time. I would be willing to put a
tabling motion so as Petitioner suggested maybe she could sit down at dinner and break
bread with the neighbors and maybe come to a better solution. At this particular time I
am not willing to support and/or negotiate terms.
Henzi: Mr. Duggan.
Duggan: You expressed openness to discuss with your neighbors and I do think that is
the best thing to see if you guys can come to an agreement instead of us telling you
what to do. If you guys can do that and I don’t know if that’s possible, but it seems like
you’re open to it. But I did like a lot of what you are proposing like getting the privacy
fence, clipping wings. There’s a lot of – you know you were talking about how you didn’t
think the chickens were getting out, but there are a lot of photos that they were. Some
of them were flying out when you weren’t looking which I don’t know if chickens do that
other than today. So, I think you’re on the right track, six goats is way too much and
you’ve compared them to dogs and there’s the law you can only have three dogs. So, I
have to think along the lines of closer to three goats, but I think at this time we table it
and you can try and figure out with your neighbors if they’re – if they’re split on how they
feel on it. So, I would be leaning towards a tabling motion at this time to see if you
could figure it out.
Henzi: Mrs. McCue.
McCue: As I sit here and we hear both sides, I don’t think anybody would be knocking
you because I get totally where you are coming from and nobody is against the goats
per se. I think it’s more about where we live, what the ordinance is, and how several
people feel about how it is impeding their lifestyle and how that affects them. I’m going
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 55 March 6, 2012
to go back with these two and say I would feel much better with all of this involved if
everybody could come to a conclusion and be happy. I do agree with what is said about
the number of – if we’re saying that the ordinance is, again compared to dogs, I would
possibly contemplate the three goats, but I think again I totally understand with what you
are doing. We’ve dealt with food allergies, we’ve dealt with the holistic piece of it, I get
that. It’s just making it work for everybody in that particular location so I would like to
see you guys all work it out.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Well, I agree with everything the other members have said, but I think that you do
have a uniqueness. The uniqueness is the animal that you have for a pet that is the
uniqueness, but having said that you have to be compatible or your pet has to be
compatible and I think if you realize by now that just because your property is zoned
RUF it’s not a farm. I mean, you have less than an acre and it definitely doesn’t
warrant, you know, what you are proposing on that property. So, I would agree we
should table it. I think that you should really, really concentrate on becoming compatible
not imposing on your neighbors. I mean, the things that you are doing there greatly
affect them, greatly affects their property values, their enjoyment of their property and
you shouldn’t be imposing on that. So, I will agree to a tabling motion and see what you
can come up with, with your neighbors.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: We have done some tabling motions before on far less controversial
subjects and hardly ever see something come back reasonable. A lot of comments
here. You started off with saying the outskirts of Livonia – I hardly look at Middle Belt
and Seven Mile as the outskirts of Livonia. I look at that as being in the middle of a
residential subdivision, municipal resident area. I just got notes here no particular order.
The letters from the children are extremely touching, almost heartbreaking in some
regards. Those animals in that penned area based upon the numeric value of property
that these goats needs is clearly not enough, clearly not enough. When you’ve got six
goats, a couple cats, dozens of birds, it’s far too much for that property in my opinion. I
know we’re not here to talk about – or we’re here to talk about goats, but the
expectations of that property that you maintain and live at are far from anything that I
find reasonable. Tie that back with the animals, I completely find that as unreasonable
for me. I would never want to live there next to you in the condition that property is in.
A lot of people support you though, a lot of people in this room support you. They like
the goats. They like the presence of them and like to pet them, like to feed them. They
are not maintaining them. A lot of people like things when they don’t have any
responsibility for it. The property is completely disorganized. It is reducing property
values as the gal in the back said. That is a matter of fact there, there is no doubt about
it. There’s two separate points of view here and at this point I am siding with the point
of view to not allow the goats on the property that’s where I stand.
Henzi: This is a very difficult issue that is unique. We don’t deal with this type of case
everyday. To me it’s looking at the ordinance and trying to find out whether goats were
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 55 March 6, 2012
originally intended to be included and if not should goats be considered on par with
horses or cows. But I have to tell you your petition is completely different from the
horse petitions that I’ve seen and I will be frank, you know, I grew up and I remember
seeing horses going down Six Mille Road because a lot of the horses that have existed
in the City or in the Curtis Road area backs up to Rotary Park at Six and Merriman.
That’s where a lot of them are and that’s where the only horse petitions that have ever
come before us they were both Curtis Road properties. It’s much different to have a
horse with a pole bar abutting a park to what you have. Your request is almost like a
petting zoo more than a farm. That’s not a criticism I’m just saying that’s the way I see
it. That’s one of the things that you and your supporters have targeted as a reason why
you should be able to have it is because it’s got such community support. Kids come
by, we should be able to have this, they’re like dogs, et cetera. But because your
request is unlike the person who says I have one horse and I have an acre and-a-half
and I back up to Rotary Park. You live in a street that over time has become
predominately residential, I mean, it’s lost it’s RUF character to a great extent people
don’t have chicken coops, they store their snow mobiles in the backyard now and that’s
the way that the City has changed over time. I think it absolutely unreasonable to have
six goats on a property this size. I think it’s unreasonable to have six goats on an acre
and-a-half. You can only have three dogs, you can only have one horse. To have three
goats on a .75 acre lot no way, absolutely not. I can’t go for it. Three is probably too
many. The chickens, that’s not going to work. I say all these things because there’s
consensus for a tabling resolution and I think that’s fair especially given the uniqueness
of your request. We’ll be able to go out to your property more, we’ll have another Board
member here. I think that’s fine, but when you come back you have to realize what
everyone’s opinions are and mine are that the free-range chickens, the way that you
conduct this effort and the complaints that are made from it, it’s unacceptable. We saw
pictures, probably a dozen pictures of fowl in the neighborhood. There were letters
where and speakers who said, you know, I went to work and there’s a chicken
underneath my car. Rural urban farm zoning doesn’t mean you’re going to have to kick
a chicken out of your way to get into your car. It means that people like you might be
able to have a few in the backyard and so my ultimate point on this topic is that if you
want some sort of diminution and animals, you have got to come to us with some sort of
pen plan, I mean, I would like to see it mapped out. I’d like to see a drawing of your
backyard to scale, a drawing of this is how we’re going to do it because a tarp and a
plywood – that doesn’t cut it. Real farms don’t even do it like that. That’s unfair. So,
we’re trying to balance what’s fair to the neighborhood and to what’s fair with you, but I
think that you should know at least where I’m coming from I’m only one Board member,
but those are my feelings. So having said all of that, the floor is open. It sounds like
there’s consensus for tabling.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Duggan, it was:
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 55 March 6, 2012
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-03-06: Kathryn Trestain, 19246 Brentwood,
Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to reverse an administrative ruling that maintaining
goats is a prohibited use within a rural urban farm zoning district, or in the event
that the board affirms that administrative ruling, seeking a use variance to
maintain goats in a rural urban farm zoned district.
The property is located on the east side of Brentwood (19246) between Seven Mile
Road and Pembroke, be tabled to allow the Petitioner to address the concerns of the
neighbors and come to a consensus regarding the number of animals, revise the plans,
and return to the Board within two months.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Pastor, Duggan, Aloe, Caramagno, McCue, Henzi
NAYS: None
ABSENT: Sills
Henzi: This is tabled. Ms. Trestain, and I can tell you that if you wanted the next
meeting April 3rd, you have to contact the ZBA office by March 13. The next meeting is
April 17th and you can get the remainder of the schedule from the Zoning Board Office,
but all you have to do is call the ZBA Office, reschedule. You can submit an identical
plan or something different, but all I will tell you like I tell every tabling Petitioner is to
take into consideration everything you have heard when you resubmit the plan.
Petitioner: Is it Marilyn that I call, Marilyn Mootsey.
Henzi: Yes, call Marilyn.
Petitioner: Thank you all.
There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at
9:55 p.m.
____________________________
SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary
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MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman