Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout2012-11-13City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 55 November 13, 2012 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING HELD NOVEMBER 13, 2012 A Regular Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, November 13, 2012. MEMBERS PRESENT: Matthew Henzi, Chairman Craig Pastor, Vice President Sam Caramagno, Secretary Elizabeth H. McCue Kathleen Mcintyre Robert E. Sills MEMBERS ABSENT: Edward E. Duggan, Jr. OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney Dennis DeMeyer, City Inspector Bonnie Murphy, Court Reporter The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight's minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Six (6) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 5 persons present in the audience. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 55 November 13, 2012 7:00 APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-49: Amani AI-Zawawi, 10165 Laurel, Livonia, Ml48150, seeking to maintain a 6-ft. tall privacy fence located adjacent to an existing fence, erected in the side yard and erected without obtaining a permit, all of which are not allowed. The property is located on the west side of Laurel (10165) between Pinetree and Plymouth. Henzi: Is there a motion to remove this from the table? Pastor: Mr. Chair, I make a motion to remove this from the table. Caramagno: Support. Henzi: I have a motion and support; all in favor say aye. Board: (In unison) Aye. Henzi: This is removed from the table. Thank you. Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add to this case? DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. DeMeyer? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table. Petitioner: (Mahal) Hi. I'm Mahal Fazal, son of Amani AI-Zawawi, I live at 10165 Laurel Street, Livonia, Michigan. Petitioner: (Baher- Elsaid) Baher-Eisaid, husband of Amani AI-Zawawi. Henzi: Same address? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) 10165 Laurel Street. Henzi: Okay, gentlemen, you've been before us a couple of times. Why don't you tell us what's new about your proposal since you were here last which was May 201h? Petitioner: (Mahal) After the last hearing, directly afterwards we spoke with the neighbor and from what I understood was the main issue was he didn't like the way the fence looked facing - the way the fence was facing. And so I talked to him and he agreed that if we flipped the fence he would be fine with it staying. So my question was if we flipped the fence can we keep it temporarily until we are able to erect a different fence and we will obtain permit for this fence, but if we do keep the fence then he's okay with it if it's possible to remove the case. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 55 November 13, 2012 Henzi: So where it stands is you want to flip the privacy fence with the good side facing, I think it's Mr. Hall, his property? Petitioner: (Mahal) Yes. Henzi: Okay. And what do you mean by do that temporarily? Petitioner: (Mahal) Well, eventually we were planning on removing both fences and putting up a cyclone fence. Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioner? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: When you say temporarily, what does that exactly mean in time? Petitioner: (Mahal) Until we have money to put up another fence. Pastor: Well, that's indefinite, that's not temporary, that's indefinite. We need some type of time frame or at least I do. Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) Actually, this plan was around and it was agreed upon on the last meeting with Mr. Steve Banko and if we flip the fence and Mr. John Hall doesn't have a choice because he's on the kitty-corner, he's not right - that address is not sharing the fence and that was the one who made the complaint. So he agreed on the idea that Steve - Mr. Steve Banko's idea. We were planning to do this for the range of three to four years so that we will start removing both fences, obtaining a permit, getting the variance which we care about now, the variance for maintaining 6-ft and we'll then erect a new fence. Henzi: So, three to four years? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) Three to four years. Henzi: My confusion is I don't remember you making comments that this was going to be temporary, I thought that this was a fairly new fence. It is my understanding you wanted to flip it to the good side facing Mr. Hall because it was going to be there for a while. Petitioner: (Mahal) Right. We thought so as well but with the confusion about the double fences and since it's such a big issue we're just going to end up replacing the whole thing. We were planning on having the privacy fence on all sides but seeing as how the double fence is an issue, I think it would be less cost- almost not that much of a cost to just replace the whole entire thing with a new fence. Henzi: Any other questions? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 55 November 13, 2012 Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I'm not sure who this should be directed to but how do you maintain this ordinance variance if it's three to four years? I mean does the building department forget about it and it never gets done? I'm a little concerned about that. Is there any type of trailer in the building department? DeMeyer: I suppose we could do a recall date so it would pop up in the system again to check on it but that's the best I can say at this point. Pastor: So it's possible that it could be forgotten about at some time down the road. DeMeyer: It's possible it could be forgotten about, yes. Henzi: But if we made it temporary, I mean if it was temporary, though, Marilyn would monitor it so it would come back. I suppose that's still possible that she could forget but we do have that from time to time. Pastor: Yes, we do but it's just three to four years just seems like a long period of time. Henzi: And then you've also got the lag because it shows up on our calendar and then you've got to get them to come back in. Pastor: Right, right. And we were supposed to hear this 30 days after the last tabling motion and I think it's well past then. Henzi: Any other questions? McCue: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I apologize. I'm just - I'm trying to remember, I know obviously we've talked about this type fence, I apologize, but you're saying the area you're going to put the fence around there's not a double fence or there is a double fence in there? Is there another fence there where we'd have two fences or just the one, we will still have that, correct? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) No, you'll have two. McCue: I just wanted to clarify that. Petitioner: (Mahal) It's going to be exactly - the old fence is a chain link going up I think four feet is going to be topped by the other one so they are going to be almost one City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 55 November 13, 2012 fence, they're going to be linked together for one fence. We're just putting it on the other side of that fence. McCue: Right, but we still have two fences. All right. I just wanted to make sure that I was looking at this the right way. Thank you. Fisher: Mr. Chair, if I may? Henzi: Mr. Fisher? Fisher: Just so we all understand, what you're planning to do in three or four years is make it not two fences but make it one fence? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) Make it one fence. Fisher: Okay. Henzi: Anything else? Sills: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I wasn't here for the original meeting, I was absent on that day it was tabled, but I did go by there this past week and I noticed the double fence is carried on up on the side there and attached to the front of the house rather than to the rear of the house like it should be to begin with. Petitioner: (Mahal) That was the original fence, not ours. Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) Which one are you speaking about, the south side? Because the south side is not our fence and this is the big problem. All the neighbors have double fences and none of them has any complaints. It's only our fence that's causing the problem and it has proceeding like this. And the south fence that you're mentioning is not our fence and it's maintained on our side and there's no complaint about it and it's not part of this variance. Because of course we're the only ones that go through this but all the other neighbors have double fences and the fence that you're referring to is not ours. Sills: The south side of your house there's a road there, isn't there? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) There is what? Sills: Is there a street that comes through on the south side of your house? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) No, that's our neighbor's. Petitioner: (Mahal) Are you speaking on the side that's -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 55 November 13, 2012 Sills: The Pinetree side. Petitioner: (Mahal) The Pinetree side? Sills: Yes. Petitioner: (Mahal) Yeah, that's not ours, that's our neighbor's. Our side is the one inwards towards Laurel. Sills: But I did notice that the privacy fence did go along the side of the house and is attached to the front of the house rather than attached to the back of the house like it should have been. Petitioner: (Mahal) We just followed basically the pre-existing fence. The pre-existing fence was built where it started up at the middle of the house. Apparently the house had additions built on and I'm not sure if that used to be the old back but if it's not when we bought the house the fence was basically where it is now. Sills: Was there some reason you didn't apply for a permit? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) It's our builder who didn't do it and he disappeared. Sills: If you would have applied for a permit they would have told you where the fence would have to be. Petitioner: (Mahal) We took the builder's word for it. Pastor: I'm sorry, you took whose word for it? Petitioner: (Mahal) No, we took the builder's- we thought the builder would have took the- done all that process first. Apparently he didn't pull the permit. Sills: So now the way I understand it is you want us to give you a variance for three years or four years until you have enough money to build a regular fence, is that what you want? Petitioner: (Mahal) Yes, sir. Basically just to be able to keep this fence, we're going to flip the fence, the old fence, the one we erected, we're going to flip it to the other side so that the nice side is facing out and basically we would like to keep this until we have enough money to build a new fence. Sills: So why do you need three or four years to do this? Petitioner: (Mahal) We don't have enough money. Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) Here is the case, the case, the one we presented, we said before and we still affirm the following. My wife has deep fear from dogs and each City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 55 November 13, 2012 neighbor has a dog and we have three kids aging from two years to seven years and we feel that they are not safe to play in the backyard where there is only four feet of fence surrounding them. So we asked somebody to build a fence, he did the following. We asked for variance to retain the fence for the protection of our children and they suggested that Mr. Steve Banko come. He came on March 23'd and we came to an agreement making the idea that was just measurement, flipping the fence, nice side outside, with making them as one fence and that was like a permanent solution. Now we want to maintain one fence, we don't want to maintain two fences but it's much more cheaper for us to flip the fence, keep as it is for the time being until we save some money to build a fence, to build one fence with a variance that we can maintain some privacy on the patio. Sills: Is the chain link fence yours too? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) No. I don't think it's ours. Petitioner: (Mahal) The fence is shared between the neighbors. Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) It's shared between the neighbors and I still believe there's technical difficulty in removing this chain link. The chain link is connected to everybody and removing it would still be some kind of a technical problem, still be a problem. It was built in 1941. Sills: What do you do three or four years down the road from now when you intend to put one fence up, who's going to take the chain link fence down and the existing fence down? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) We're going to find a contractor, we're going to get a permit, during this time we're going to take our time and do those things and we're going to make sure that who's building it is a fence contractor that has built lots of this and has been able to remove those chain link fences and if he has any problem he has to contact the building department. We cannot do more than that. We cannot build a fence for everybody in the neighborhood because we need some privacy fence. Sills: This is a real unusual case. I've been on this Board for twelve years and I've never run across anything like this. If we were to allow everybody that comes before us for a variance, if we were to allow everybody three to four years to get their house in order, what kind of a city would we have? Petitioner: (Mahal) It was to my understanding that the person who submitted the case in the first place all he had, all he didn't like about it is the way that the fence faced. And I believe the gentleman had suggested that it was okay for us just flipping it over last time that it would be okay to dismiss the case, that the neighbor himself would dismiss the case. Is it possible for the neighbor to submit a paper to close the case? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) To answer your question we can't believe how many homes are there on Laurel Street by itself to take a sample and we estimated sixty homes on Laurel Street on our side, forty-six of them have double fences. So our case I don't City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 55 November 13, 2012 think is peculiar. The only peculiar thing is one of the neighbors made a complaint for some reason and he's not given either when we signed the consent for building the fence he has no say on it by the way. He's on the kitty-corner, he's not one of the neighbors that's required to have the approval on. Pastor: Mr. Chair? Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Who is the contractor who built this fence? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) He's a contractor who we found him through somebody we know and he did two other jobs and we didn't like him anymore, and he disappeared. He used to live in Ann Arbor, his name was Handyman something. We have a phone number for him. We have an address. I don't think he's registered with the City, I don't think he knows much about what he's doing. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the table. Martin: Good evening. Henzi: Good evening. Martin: Christopher Martin, 12275 Inkster Road, Livonia, 48150. I'm somewhat familiar with this area. A friend of mine earlier in the summer bought a house on the east side of Laurel near Pinetree and Plymouth Road. So when these gentlemen were here originally, some of you also know and are aware I sit in on a lot of cases that involve privacy fences. The issue was brought up about fear of dogs and in that particular area as in many sections of Livonia there are several privacy fences next to cyclone fences. And in an area that I have several homes and this is about a month ago across the street from one of my houses there's a playhouse. Kids do plays there and I guess there's dance lessons there also and they were highly concerned one Sunday evening because there was a pit bull that was in the area. A dog a couple of houses down from here, a black lab, actually climbs the 4-foot fence, doesn't jump over it, climbs it, chased my cat. So I can understand their fear of dogs. I was in Detroit today and saw a pack of them. So the issue has come up here on how long to leave the fence up, three or four years or whatever. At the end of the day there's been fences up for years. There are properties with fences up next to cyclone fences and they can stay for years because they were placed before the fence ordinance went into effect so to a degree they're grandfathered in and they're right in that same neighborhood. I can understand if the adjoining neighbor had a real beef about the situation but this is somebody who is not an abutting neighbor. One other thing, too, is that because I do like to attend these meetings and others also, I would give you this but I have the original copy. Your paperwork has to be filed with the City Clerk a minimum amount of time before you have the meeting and you send her this. You've ignored that numerous times but this one was filed, this meeting was City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 55 November 13, 2012 filed with the Clerk at 3:11 this afternoon so actually technically you're holding an illegal meeting because there are a certain amount of hours that are required before a meeting is conducted. So you really need, in my opinion, to cancel the meeting because anything you do here - I know, Mike, you can laugh at it but even you point out rules and laws at various times. So I've spoken with Terry about this and this has happened in the past. So I have a copy also because I requested it so it's 3:11 today. Henzi: Mr. Fisher, any response to that? Fisher: One of my responses is that I sometimes quote rules and laws because I'm a lawyer. And the other thing I would say about that are these are regularly scheduled meetings which are published in the newspaper weeks in advance. They comply with applicable notice requirements. Martin: I have spoken with our City Clerk about this because this has happened before and there's a certain requirement as far as time that the paperwork is filed with our Clerk and it's posted. This paperwork was not filed with the clerk until 3:11, I have my own copy. Henzi: Well, you've got a dispute over what constitutes posting. Mr. Fisher says notice of this meeting doesn't necessarily mean filing with the Clerk, you say it does. We're not going to resolve that tonight. You've made your point. Martin: What I'm saying though is you need to see, I'll talk to Terry about this and any decision that I believe that you'll make, okay, according to the discussion that I had with her this is the type of error, you're not really able to have a meeting no matter what Mr. Fisher says. So that's just my comment on that but take it for what it's worth, I've looked into it with the City Clerk's office. Henzi: Thank you. Pastor: Mr. Fisher? Fisher: Yes, sir. Pastor: The City Clerk is not an attorney, is she? Fisher: No. Martin: Let me just make a reference on that, who has to be an attorney and who doesn't, okay? Are you our City Clerk? Pastor: No, I'm not. Martin. No. You're here because of your last name, that's how you got on this Board, okay? Our City Clerk was elected, okay, and there's a big difference there. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 55 November 13, 2012 Henzi: Does anyone else want to speak for or against the project? Since no one else came forward, can you read the letter? Caramagno: We have an approval from Cindy at 10270 Laurel. "This is rural Livonia where this house is located. It looks fine next to the existing fence. It looks much better than the existing fence. I have no problem with this. I don't see why it's such a big deal." Henzi: Gentlemen, anything you want to say in closing? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) We want to thank everybody and we want to confirm the idea that we want to comply with whatever the variance is but first of all we are in a situation that we need to resolve currently. And second, we're going to end up getting the variance for privacy fence where we want to maintain it and build one fence. Henzi: Thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board's comments with Mrs. McCue. McCue: I appreciate your diligence, I do, and I totally understand the dog situation, I get that. That being said, it still goes back to the fact that having a double fence is against our ordinance. I don't think it was anybody's fault per se yes, we should have pulled a permit you know that, right? Hindsight is 20/20 but going back to the fact that we've got a double fencing situation without an estimated time of completion, I will hear what everybody else has to say but I still tend to not support the variance. Henzi: Mr. Pastor? Pastor: I agree. I've never been a proponent of double fences ever, so I can't consciously approve this three to four years out. There's just absolutely no way I'd be on board with that. A year maybe but not three to four years, there's no way. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno? Caramagno: My concern is also the double fence. Hardly anything good can come from a double fence. Trees grow between double fences, bushes, weeds, and very rarely are they treated or handled and it looks terrible. Asking for the extension of time is a unique way to look at this. When I look back we've been dealing with this since spring of 2011, we're approaching two years already, and nothing has happened, nothing. So I've got a lot of concern about extending this any further. This to me is a chance to improve the neighborhood. I'm not talking about what happened yesterday or yesteryear, you've got a chance to make good, make an improvement to your property, not continue with some existing problems that exist. So I cannot be for this, I can't vote for this. Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) I'm wondering If I can ask-- Henzi: Mrs. Mcintyre? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 55 November 13, 2012 Mcintyre: I wasn't on the Board at the time of the original - when it originally came before the Board but I do understand why there's a prohibition against double fences and I too am concerned that there's not a date certain point where when you're going to get rid of it. I think we're all empathetic to the fact that you inherited an issue that you didn't understand what the requirements were that the builder didn't pull a permit. You know if you said within a year you were going to resolve this issue, then I would be able to support it but I can't, I'm not comfortable supporting it with an open ended period of four years. Henzi: Mr. Sills? Sills: I agree with most of the comments that my colleagues have made. I do not agree that the fence should go around the side of the house and connect to the front. I do not agree with the Petitioner when he says he's counted sixty-two homes with double fences because two wrongs don't make a right. I don't like the idea that the Petitioner went ahead and put this fence up without a permit. If you go through a red light, I don't care if you're in Michigan, in Florida, in Nevada or anywhere you're going to get a ticket. And telling the police officer that you didn't know that the red meant stop wouldn't prevent you from getting a ticket. It's the law. And if we don't live by a set of laws we're back in the jungle again. The only difference between people and animals are laws. Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) Well, let me stop you here because- Sills: No, no, I'm - Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) Please, please. Henzi: Mr. Elsaid, you have been here several times, you've made your case, we understand it. Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) No, but he -- Henzi: The case is closed. It's time for the Board members- Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) But he --- Henzi: I'm not going to argue with you, Mr. Elsaid. It's our turn to talk about it and decide the case. Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) This is crossing the line. This is not the language we speak. Okay. He used some language that's offensive and it contains some kind of disgrading (sic) and humiliating for some minorities. Sills: What kind of language did I use? Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) You speak about animals, you speak about other fences that are over there on Laurel Street, you know those are the animals. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 55 November 13, 2012 Sills: I'm sorry if you took offense to that but I didn't mean it Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) No, you meant offense. Sills: I cannot support this. Henzi: My opinion remains the same as last time. Which is I think that there are double fences, his neighbor has one. I wanted him to put the cyclone face with the good side facing Mr. Hall whose property does abut the Petitioner's. Mr. Hall would be a person who would sign off on a privacy fence because his west side border borders the west side of this house. But there is a consensus so the door is open for a motion. I shouldn't say I don't have a consensus, there's consensus for a denial it looks like. McCue: Mr. Chair? Henzi: Mrs. McCue. Upon Motion by McCue, supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-49: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Amani AI-Zawawi, 10165 Laurel, Livonia, Ml 48150, seeking to maintain a 6-ft. tall privacy fence located adjacent to an existing fence, erected in the side yard and erected without obtaining a permit, all of which are not allowed. The property is located on the west side of Laurel (10165) between Pinetree and Plymouth, be denied for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The Petitioner has not demonstrated to the Board that a practical difficulty exists. 2. The uniqueness requirement is not met. 3. The Board received one (1) letter of approval and zero (0) letters of objection from neighboring properties. 4. The granting of the variance is not consistent with the City's Master Plan because the area is zoned "Low Density Residential". ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: McCue, Pastor, Mcintyre, Sills, Caramagno NAYS: Henzi ABSENT: Duggan Petitioner: (Mahal) I've got a question. Did you deny the double fence or allowing us to have the front part of the fence be 6-feet? Because another issue is the case presents both issues that the first case was there was a double fence and the second case is that it's a 6-foot at the front of the house there or something of that sort. Now my question is is it possible for you guys that sure you deny the double City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 55 November 13, 2012 fence but is it possible that you can add a clause that allows us to keep this 6-foot fence or are you denying it altogether? Because for a new fence, if we erect a new fence, is it all right for us to have a 6-foot at the front yard or is this going to be in the rear yard. Fisher: Mr. Chair, if I may? Henzi: Mr. Fisher. Fisher: What they denied is the package that you have before you tonight, this bundle of violations. It is potentially possible for you to cure the double fencing and maybe you can get a variance in the future as to the side yard fencing which is what you're alluding to. So it's not so much that it's 6-feet tall in the side yard but it's that you're not supposed to have a privacy fence in your side yard at all. Privacy fences are supposed to start at the rear building line of the house. Petitioner: (Mahal) Does that include a patio or no? Fisher: What do you mean? Petitioner: (Mahal) There's a patio on the house and the way it is it is built into the house. I don't know what brought about this idea. Fisher: Well, it doesn't matter where the patio is. What matters is where the rear building line of the house is. I don't know your house from any other but the wall, the back wall is the back building line. Petitioner: (Mahal) Okay. So just one question for you, Mr. Fisher, if we do build a new fence, if we do get approved for a new fence to set up a single fence instead of the double fence, and it's going to be a privacy fence that is 6-feet tall, will it face any issue with it being 6-feet tall and being at the back of the house? Fisher: No, that's not a problem. McCue: Well, the 6-feet - Fisher: Well, you have to get the neighbor's permission but I assume the neighbors. Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) Which neighbors, please? Fisher: The two neighbors have to agree about the placement of a privacy fence. Petitioner: (Mahal) So the neighbor to the left that's next to us? Fisher: Right. Petitioner: (Mahal) Not Mr. Hall? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 55 November 13, 2012 Fisher: Well, it depends on where your fence is. I mean theoretically if you have a fence that abuts Mr. Hall's property then you're going to have to get his sign-off. If you just want to have a fence between you and the people to the north of you, whatever, wherever the fence goes, that's who has to sign off. Petitioner: (Baher-Eisaid) Thank you. Fisher: You're welcome. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 55 November 13, 2012 7:35 APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-10-48: (Tabled on October 9, 2012) Hart & Leidal Investment Company, LLC, 12100 Globe St., Livonia, Ml 48150, on behalf of lessee Continuum Services, 32225 Schoolcraft, Livonia, Ml 48150, seeking to erect a wall sign on property located on the south side of Schoolcraft (32225) between Hubbard and Merriman, resulting in excess wall sign area. Existing wall sign to be removed. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I would move that this come off the table. Henzi: Is there support? McCue: Support. Henzi: Motion to remove it from the table, moved and supported; all in favor say aye. The Board: ( In unison) Aye. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add to this case? DeMeyer: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions from the Inspection Department? Hearing none; good evening, gentlemen. Representative: Good evening. Henzi: Could you tell us your names and addresses, please? Representative: My name is Keith Murray, 2160 Byron Center Avenue, Grand Rapids, Ml 49519. Henzi: Okay. You were here once before, what's new about your packet? Representative: Since our previous meeting we came up with information regarding previous signage on the building. We didn't know what was on the building prior to the Continuum sign. We did a survey of that fagade and it was determined, and it should be in your packet, what was on the building previously. The other thing was some sort of how you derive the size you're looking for and we tried not to make it too muddy with a lot of information. So we were able to show that the previous sign was 100 square feet and then we did the calculation based on travel on 96 going east and/or west. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 55 November 13, 2012 Henzi: What about the other tenant, prospective tenant? There was an issue about whether the neighboring adjacent tenant was going to want similar signage. Petitioner: If I recall the question it was what would prevent the neighboring tenant to go apply for a variance and the response from Don Leidal, the owner of the building, said they'd been in there 23 years and they don't anticipate that they would want a new s1gn. Henzi: agree with you and I just want to make sure you're not presenting information about the neighboring tenant tonight. Petitioner: I did inquire as to the length of their lease and how long they anticipate to be in there and they've been there 23 years and there currently is not a lease in place and they could vacate at any time. Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioners? McCue: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: Did you also say that if that was vacated that that's an area that you're interested in? Petitioner: I'm actually interested in buying the building, correct. McCue: That's what I thought. Petitioner: It would be somewhat contingent on this decision. McCue: All right. I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing. Petitioner: Correct. McCue: Thank you. Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: The old Leidal & Hart sign, 100 square feet, what was the sign that was below that on the furthest east side? Petitioner: They had a second sign that was on the lower part of the building over here. Both signs have been removed. Caramagno: Correct. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 55 November 13, 2012 Petitioner: By the previous tenant. Caramagno: So you're looking for 79 square feet? Petitioner: Correct. Caramagno: There was 100 upstairs and there was something downstairs? Petitioner: Correct. Caramagno: So you're much less than what was there before? Petitioner: Correct. Caramagno: Okay. Henzi: Could you state your name for our record. Petitioner: Sure. My name is Scott Milligan with Continuum Services. Our address is 32225 Schoolcraft Road. Henzi: Any other questions for the Petitioners? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up. No one coming forward, can you read the letters? Caramagno: Adam at 31037 Schoolcraft sends an objection, (letter read). Henzi: Gentlemen, is there anything you want to say in closing? Petitioner: No. The other question that came up in the last meeting was in considering the variance would it be possible to eliminate the "Services" underneath our proper name "Continuum Services". I did say that our legal name is Continuum Services, would it be possible, sure. But taking that into consideration we would obviously prefer to have our entire legal name on there which is Continuum Services, but if that meant the difference of getting this approved and disapproved, I could remove the "Services" in lieu of keeping "Continuum" which would somewhat reduce the overall size. It still be larger than the allowed 10 square feet, but I would be willing to remove "Services". Henzi: So then what's the approximate? Petitioner: 57 square feet. Henzi: It would go from 79 to 57? Petitioner: Correct. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 55 November 13, 2012 Henzi: Thank you. I'll close the public portion of the case and we'll start the Board's comments with Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, I'm not in favor of this first time around. And since you offered to drop the "Services", 57 square feet is more palatable, I could support this if "Services" were dropped. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I'm okay with Continuum Services. You've demonstrated to me that there was 100 square feet up there plus what was on the lower level and you're less than that. When it said Leidal & Hart, it didn't hurt my feelings. I didn't find it overbearing, overwhelming. Continuum Services tells me something. I don't know what Continuum is, I don't know what that is. Continuum Services tells me a little bit about what you do so I'm okay with it. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: Mrs. Mcintyre. Mcintyre: I really appreciate the due diligence, I'm always happy, I'm kind of a data person so I really appreciate the fact that there was work done on putting behind a data driven case as to why this sign is appropriate. I've lived in Livonia most of my life. That Leidal & Hart sign, it was large, it stood out, it was never offensive, I really like the design elements and I'm in favor of letting you keep your legal name. I mean I feel strongly that we want businesses here and part of your brand identity is your entire name and I think you've done everything we've asked you to do. And given the sign that was on there before it's not an unreasonable request. I always appreciate growing businesses looking to locate in Livonia. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I'll go along with the comments made by Mr. Caramagno, I'll go along with the Continuum Services, I have no problem with that sign. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I agree. I mean you look at the Leidal & Hart sign and how that was and we've seen that for how long prior to that, that was one of the issues. You've definitely done your due diligence and we appreciate the effort. I know that's not little time or little expense that went into doing this. And again, I will reiterate what Mrs. Mcintyre said, we actually want to be proponents for new businesses in Livonia. I also don't think that we're necessarily in the business of making somebody change City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 55 November 13, 2012 their logo or their business name on the side of the building so I would be in support as I said with Continuum Services. Henzi: So will I. I'll go along with Continuum Services. You've demonstrated a hardship. You've got 80 employees, people that may only come to your spot once a month or rather infrequently. You're trying to attract people from the highway who are looking for your business. But most importantly for me like the others, I think it's really unfair to limit you when a business had a 100 square foot sign since 1969 and later on. I think your sign is appropriate so the floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Mcintyre, supported by Sills, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-10-48: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Hart & Leidallnvestment Company, LLC, 12100 Globe St., Livonia, Ml 48150, on behalf of lessee Continuum Services, 32225 Schoolcraft, Livonia, Ml 48150, seeking to erect a wall sign resulting in excess wall sign area. Existing wall sign to be removed. Wall Sign Area Allowed: 10 sq ft Proposed: 79 sq ft Excess: 69 sq ft The property is located on the south side of Schoolcraft (32225) between Hubbard and Merriman, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because Petitioner has a business name that needs to be identified from both directions of the freeway and data supporting that size sign is needed. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because the nature of the business is such that it's not something people come to every day and not being able to find the business establishment would not be helpful to the business. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because it doesn't cause any hardship on any of the businesses or residents in the area. 4. The Board received zero (0) letters of approval and one (1) letter of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because it is zoned "Industrial" and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted as presented. Page 20 of 55 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals November 13, 2012 ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Mcintyre, Sills McCue, Caramagno, Henzi NAYS: Pastor ABSENT: Duggan Henzi: The variance is granted as presented. Good luck to you. Petitioner: Thank you. I appreciate it. Page 21 of 55 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals November 13, 2012 (7:46) APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-11-53: Northern Equities Group, 39000 Country Club Drive, Farmington Hills, Ml 48331, on behalf of Lessee lnfineon Tech. North America Corp, 19111 Victor Parkway, Livonia, Ml 48152, seeking to erect an additional wall sign on the west elevation on property located on the west side of Victor Parkway (19401) between Seven Mile and Pembroke, resulting in excess number of wall signs and wall sign area. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add? DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I was confused. Number of wall signs, there's two on the building as it exists now. Am I looking at the right building? Petitioner: If I may respond? Henzi: Sure. Just identify yourself first. Petitioner: My name is Bill Lutz, 39255 Country Club Drive, Farmington Hills. This is a new construction, this is a new building, it's not a building that is occupied currently. Caramagno: Okay. I tried to look at the address of something else. Petitioner: Mr. Chair, if I may, I have additional photos that might help clarify the diagram. Heniz: Sure. Please pass it around. You can start it from there, your presentation. Petitioner: This is a new construction, lnfineon is currently located just down the street on Victor Parkway, at the corner of Victor Parkway and Seven Mile. They are in Livonia, they want to be in Livonia, obviously they have other choices but prefer to stay in the Livonia area. They're about doubling the size of their staff, and therefore doubling the size of the facility so they can build a new building just down the street directly adjacent to Davenport University. They front two roads. They front the expressway, 275, and Victor Parkway. So they have the same difficulty as the other petitioner has, that is they need visibility from both directions on 275. The southern exposure is permitted and we have a permit for that sign. It's the western exposure that a lot of people can see the building as they quickly travel on 275. So what we have proposed through a number of photo studies, we wanted to do something, it's a very nice building Page 22 of 55 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals November 13, 2012 as you can see, something that's appropriate to the building that's still visible from the expressway so we're proposing a 57-square foot sign. Here is lnfineon's logo, in many cases you don't even have to read the exact letters as you drive by quickly but it is an important identifier. I mean this is a business that is intricately involved in the modernization of automobiles so we are so pleased to see that kind of growth in the automotive industry in Livonia, so anything we can do to promote that and make this a visible entity is our intention. Henzi: Thank you. Can you just make a record about the kinds of folks that are looking for the building? Petitioner: I will start this off by saying we have Mr. Tom Kruser with us and he is the right person to address that. Representative: The types of customers, this is an engineering and sales type of office, so the types of customers that we do business with would be suppliers to the car makers or the car makers themselves, they would be coming to our facility to basically look at the next generation of products for cars that will be manufactured three to five years from now. The frequency at which we would have meetings with customers like that would be maybe once a quarter or something like this so we would have multiple meetings with many different customers but maybe the same customer would be coming once a quarter. So it's important for us for them to be able to find us and the track going down 275 to the airport it's much easier for us to say hey you saw the building over there now you know where we're at off of Seven Mile or Eight Mile and come around and find us so it's quite important for us to have that visibility. Petitioner: Also on the east side of the building we also have created a training center so it holds approximately 110 people and it's a multi-purpose training area where we can train engineers and automobile manufacturers on the next generation technology that goes into cars like electric vehicles, for example, next generation safety systems so cars that have air bags or lane departure or collision avoidance type technology, those are the type of technology that we're involved in for cars in the future. And today, by the way, we have quite a large business already so it's not just about the future. That's why we're growing because the business is picking up. I've been with the company 15 years so we've been here for quite some time and made it through the automotive crisis and at this point our business is even better than it was in 2008 so we're crossing our fingers as well and investing for the next ten years. Henzi: Any questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: You don't have any signs on Victor Parkway, is there any reason why you haven't proposed any there? Representative: We'll have a ground sign. Page 23 of 55 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals November 13, 2012 Pastor: Oh, you'll have a monument sign? Petitioner: When you're on Victor Parkway, now you're dealing with a much lower speed limit so visibility tends to be more at ground level so we'll have a permitted ground sign. Pastor: Okay. Henzi: Anything else? Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the table. Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I'm sorry, I do have a question. Since I completely missed the building, are you out of the other building? Petitioner: Not yet. Caramagno: When will you be? Petitioner: Christmas. Caramagno: You'll be completely out of that building, that building has two signs now plus a monument sign. No other questions. Henzi: All right. Gentlemen, anything you'd like to say in closing? Petitioner: We're all set. Henzi: Thank you very much. I'll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I like this. You're moving out of an out of date building and obviously we had to approve that in the past and you're moving into a much larger building it looks to be, you need your identification, clearly. We have other buildings with multi signs there as well so it's comparable so I'm in support. Henzi: Mrs. Mcintyre: Mcintyre: First of all, your security guy is doing his job. I was over there in the evening to see it and I saw that he was security so I went out and told him what I was doing, but I have to tell you I appreciate the fact that you have security on site. Nothing but good to see a growing business doing nicely, a building with really nice architectural design elements, a really attractive logo and again, as somebody who travels to meetings especially in office parks, there are multiple office parks and if you don't know which Page 24 of 55 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals November 13, 2012 office park, making sure that somebody can see that sign and go oh, okay, it's the one on the east side of 275, that's where I need to be, you know it's nothing but helpful, just attractive and I think very reasonable. As I said before I am a data person and there's a compelling reason as to why you need that placement so I think it's great. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I think the building is very well designed, I think you definitely need a sign on the expressway and as my colleagues have mentioned, that identity is very important, it's even more important than an address so I can be in full support of this. Henzi: Mrs. McCue: McCue: I agree. You've worked really closely with the City through this whole process and we appreciate the consistency that you guys have shown in that and I will support what Mr. Sills said, the branding piece I think more and more becomes as important if not more important than having an address on there and the speed that people travel down 275, if you don't have a sign out there, they're never going to see it. I will absolutely support. Henzi: Mr. Pastor: Pastor: Unlike the last case, I can support this only because number one, they're not asking for multiple times the square footage, they're just doubling it. The building, the way it's situated off the expressway, I think this will actually enhance when people are coming down the expressway to see the building. On the other building the expressway is down below the building, I didn't see much reason for that, so I can definitely support this. Henzi: I, too, will support it for all the reasons stated. I think you've got an attractive building. You've got folks who don't go there very often who are traveling at high speeds, trying to find the lnfineon Building, not necessarily an office park. And it also blends in well with all the other buildings in that area along 275. So, the floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-11-53: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Northern Equities Group, 39000 Country Club Drive, Farmington Hills, Ml 48331, on behalf of lessee lnfineon Tech. North America (wall sign on the west elevation resulting in excess number of walls signs and wall sign area.) Number of Wall Signs Allowed: One Proposed: Two Excess: One The property is located on the west side of Victor Parkway (19401) between Seven Mile and Pembroke, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: Page 25 of 55 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals November 13, 2012 5. The uniqueness requirement is met because the building is on a major thorofare throughout the City, the 275 expressway, and it needs to be recognized by traffic going northbound and southbound. 6. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because they have customers visiting on a nonregular basis that have to get to the location on occasion. 7. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because there are other buildings in the area that have multi signs as well as monument signs on Victor Parkway and they also have buildings south of their location that have dual signs as well. 8. The Board received zero (0) letters of approval and zero (0) letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 9. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because it is zoned "Office" and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the sign be built as presented. 2. That City Council Resolution 376-11 will be adopted. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Mcintyre, McCue, Sills, Henzi NAYS: ABSENT: Duggan Page 26 of 55 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals November 13, 2012 (8:00) APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-11-54: David Pocock, west side of Merriman (20515), between Norfolk and Eight Mile, seeking to erect a second detached garage and a rear addition to a nonconforming dwelling. The addition now places the existing detached garage within the side yard, which is not allowed. Detached garages must be in the rear yard. Nonconformity of the existing dwelling is based on the existing front yard setback of 20 feet where 50 feet is required. of 20 feet where 50 feet is required. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add? DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Henzi: Hearing none, good evening. Petitioner: Good evening. Henzi: Could you tell us your name and address? Petitioner: David Pocock, 20515 Merriman. Representative: Jim Hall, Jay-BillConstruction, 27820 Joy Road, Livonia. Henzi: Mr. Pocock, tell us why you want to construct a second garage. Petitioner: Well, basically, there's no basement under the house and there's no room for any type of storage, it's a very small house, there's no closets, our vehicles are so close to the road it would be nice to be able to park our cars in it. The existing garage, it's secured, but we need an extra garage for storage, boat, I've got a tractor, lawn equipment, kids' toys, you know, just the normal stuff you have in the basement we put in the garage. Henzi: How did you arrive at the proposed size; why not smaller, why not bigger? Petitioner: Well, based on the conversation I had with the Building Department I knew that I couldn't go bigger so I just felt, you know, if I'm going to build something just to have the extra space to be able to put like a workshop upstairs, you know, for woodworking and hobbies and that kind of stuff. Henzi: Tell us about that, you're proposing a 20-foot tall structure, you're going to have a loft, what are you going to do up there, what are you going to use it for? Petitioner: Maybe storage, like I say maybe a workshop. Page 27 of 55 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals November 13, 2012 Henzi: Can you tell us about the building materials? Are you going to use siding and shingles that are going to match? Representative: It's a U-framed construction, the garage is going to be vinyl siding on the exterior, regular asphalt shingles. We built almost the exact same one on Ingram street maybe about two months ago. Henzi: Okay. Any questions? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: So you're going to add on to the house? Petitioner: Correct. Caramagno: Are you going to keep the block on wood or are you going to side that? Representative: We're going to re-side that. Caramagno: You're going to re-side the side of the home so you won't have the block wood? Representative: New siding, new windows. Caramagno: With the addition, how many square feet will the home be? Petitioner: I think the home is 1,000 square feet for the house, and we're going to add maybe another 600 square feet. Caramagno: So you'll have 1,600 square foot and almost as much garage? Representative: Yes. Caramagno: My next question is, the existing garage that's there, from the outside looking at the garage it looks to be in terrible shape. Representative: We're going to add siding as well like the garage. Caramagno: And that concerns me. To side something that looks that bad. Representative: It's definitely repairable. I've taken them and laid them down and put them back up again, it's definitely repairable. Caramagno: I agree that can be done but it doesn't mean it will look better but it's not my garage. The reason I'm asking is - my point is I'd rather see one nicer garage than a new garage and a used old garage. That's my opinion right now. The garage looks in Page 28 of 55 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals November 13, 2012 pretty rough shape to me. I see the floor is busted, at least the approach to one of the doors - is there a concrete floor? Petitioner: Yes. Caramagno: So it's busted. And the approach to the garage is all busted up. That doesn't fare well. Those are my impressions for right now. Henzi: Anything else? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Your existing garage, what kind of power does it have now? Petitioner: It's just basic standard power. Pastor: Does it have 110 on it? Petitioner: It's just 110. Pastor: What do you plan on putting in the new garage? Petitioner: What do you think? Representative: We're putting in 110, just a larger service. Pastor: When you're talking larger service, are you talking 100 amp service? Representative: It can be 100 amp service. Pastor: So it's not just 110, it's 220 as well? Representative: No. It doesn't need to be 220, 110 is fine for the garage, I'll turn it back. Pastor: When you put service in there, that's just another word for 220. Representative: We're not intending to make it a 220, it's just going to be set up as a 110 line. There may be a 20 circuit box or a 15 circuit box, something like that. Pastor: Can I have a little more explanation of what you- how many cars do you have? Petitioner: How many cars do I have? Pastor: Yes. Page 29 of 55 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals November 13, 2012 Petitioner: I've got mine, my wife's, I've got a 1956 Chevy classic. Pastor: So you've got three? Petitioner: And I've got a Corvette as well. Pastor: Four cars? Petitioner: Four. I've got a boat, I've got a camper, a motorcycle, a Harley Davidson. Pastor: So where are you putting all that stuff because I'm not sure you can put it all in both these garages. Petitioner: Yeah, it will fit in the garages, that's why we need the extra garage. Pastor: I'm kind of like Sam, I'd rather see one larger garage than two garages. I'm not a fan of multiple garages on one property since they're both detached. If one was attached, I could see another one detached, I live in that neighborhood, I live right around the corner, there's many houses in this neighborhood that have two garages but 90 percent of them are attached and the second one is detached. Representative: We can attach that garage with some type of a roof structure running from the house to that garage, would that be acceptable? Pastor: Well, that's all I have for you right now. Henzi: Are you talking about a breezeway? Representative: Yes, some sort of a breezeway in between the two houses. But the lot is so big, it's almost a bigger lot there and I think this garage we're proposing to put up, because of the lot and the Merriman Road traffic, I don't even think they can see the garage back there traveling at 45 miles per hour down through there. Henzi: But I think these two board members made a good point. I think where they're headed is what about you demo the existing and put up a bigger one, is that a possibility? Representative: It's up to the homeowner, what he would like to do at this point. How large of a garage are you able to build to this because if we put them in the position that he wants, then to get from the house coming out the back door to the garage is going to be almost 100 feet away to walk to the garage in the wintertime to get your car. Right now we've got a garage that's right next to the house you know basically. I know it's nonconforming but it was built in 1950 and there's nothing you can do about that at this point. But if it is remodeled -we could remodel that garage to be more attractive and it definitely needs that. Especially with Merriman Road like that, it's a fast road and you're right on top of that house you know as you pull into the right of way right there you know. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 55 November 13, 2012 Henzi: I have a couple more questions. So the existing garage you still want to park your daily drive? Petitioner: Just the daily drive. Henzi: Because it's so close to the house? Petitioner: Right. Henzi: But are you going to have a hard surface to the second garage that you can get back there with your Harley and your other stuff? Petitioner: I would probably, yeah, use gravel or something. It wouldn't be an every day use. Henzi: It's also hard for me, this is a pretty big garage and I don't have plans for the garage. I don't know if you're going to have a door in the back, you know. One of my biggest concerns is why do you need 20 feet? It's hard for me to visualize. Representative: I do have a picture of one that I can show you that I just built. Henzi: Yes. Representative: He would like to mimic that one if we could. This is the one we just built over on Ingram. It's the same thing. This one sits way back in the yard, his yard was almost an acre lot as well, it's right across the street here, and we just put a little apron out in front like that right there. This is a really attractive garage. Henzi: We approved that one, didn't we? Representative: Yes. Henzi: Okay. The others probably want to see it as well. McCue: Mr. Chair, is that the one we just approved? It was pretty recent, wasn't it? Henzi: Yes. Mcintyre: Mr. Chair? Henzi: Yes. Mcintyre: I have a question. Would there- and I know this question was asked but I'm not sure if it was answered exactly the way I'd like to understand it. Would the existing garage be remodeled to match exactly the new? Petitioner: Yes. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 55 November 13, 2012 Representative: Yes. Mcintyre: And are you proposing similar materials as this? Representative: Yes. Mcintyre: And is this vinyl? Representative: It's all vinyl siding, yes. Mcintyre: Okay, thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: You were saying that this garage was set far back, it's only some 80-feet off his property line, that's not real far back as far as I'm concerned, when you have a 270-foot lot. Representative: Well, when you're looking at what he's got now, I guess the first one he has now is only 25-feet off so setting this back another 20-something feet behind that. Pastor: I'm going to say it's closer to 45-feet back of his property line according to your drawings, maybe it's 40-feet. Representative: We'll set it back as far as you want us to. Petitioner: There is overhead wire there so it's either put it in front of the wires or put it behind the wires so we just had it in front of the wires. Pastor: I understand that. My lot has the same issue. Henzi: So Mr. Pocock, if you're going to store your daily drives in the existing, exactly what's going to go in the new garage? Your tractor, what else? Petitioner: Tractor. Some classics, the motorcycle, the lawn equipment, bikes, toys, right now I'll be honest with you I'm coming out of a garage in Novi that's 40 by 42, so over the years you acquire a lot of, you know, antiques. You know I've got a basement now so I don't have a basement there so I mean it's storage, you know, practically everything. Henzi: And I apologize if I asked you this, when did you buy this house? Petitioner: July. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 55 November 13, 2012 Henzi: Mrs. Mcintyre? Mcintyre: Where is the camper going to go? Petitioner: Excuse me? Mcintyre: You mentioned you have a camper? Petitioner: Yes. It will go in the second garage. Mcintyre: Okay. Petitioner: So nothing is parked outside. Mcintyre: I didn't hear that so I wanted to make sure I understood where the camper was intended to go. Henzi: Anything else? Is there anybody that wants to speak for or against the project, if so, come on up. Seeing no one coming forward, can you read the letters? Caramagno: There's an approval from Michael Camilleri, 31583 Merriwood Park Drive, (letter read). We have an objection from Jeffrey Mascharka, at 31548 Merriwood Park, (letter read). And Roy Houser at 31400 Merriwood Park Drive writes an objection, (letter read). Henzi: Gentlemen, anything you'd like to say in closing? Petitioner: The only thing I can say is right outside my fence line I've got commercial buildings, all up and -- you know I park right up to a commercial, in fact 40-foot of my property if you look it's zoned commercial so it's not like it's in the middle of a residential area. Representative: It's also not even residential, it's rural urban farm lot, it's not even residential. Henzi: Anything else? Okay. I'll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board's comments with Mrs. Mcintyre. Mcintyre: You know, I understand and I think one large garage is maybe always preferable to two detached garages. I also understand that there is a considerably higher expense in building a larger garage than perhaps redoing the other garage. The neighbors that were in objection, I know that they're within the radius requested or that we asked people for comment, they also do not, if I understand correctly, they do not abut your property, is that correct? Petitioner: That's right. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 55 November 13, 2012 Mcintyre: You're there, and they're there. I'm always in favor of compliance but at the same time I would rather always see trailers, campers, equipment, kids' stuff, stored in an attractive garage than all over a yard. And I don't want to say the lesser of two evils, I don't think in those terms, but given a choice between how the property appears from the street if you've got a bunch of junk- and I don't mean junk, stuff in a yard versus a neat, neat tidy and two very attractive garages, that's the option I take even though I do have a little bit of heartburn with two detached garages, you know, especially in light of some of the concerns of some of the neighbors but I could support this. Henzi: Mr. Sills? Sills: To the Petitioner, with the new garage that you're anticipating building, this is going to be your second second garage, isn't it? You're going to use it for storage and your classic cars and things like that? Petitioner: Correct. Sills: The garage existing, you're going to remodel that a little bit and use that as your number one garage? Petitioner: Number one garage, correct. Sills: Now, is there some reason that the new building couldn't go past the wires instead of before the wires? Petitioner: No reason. Sills: The reason that is because you've got an awfully big lot. Petitioner: Yes, it is a very big lot. Sills: And you've got all of the buildings on this -on the near side of the wires, nothing past the wires? And you've got an awful lot of space back there and I just wondered if it wouldn't be better if you'd move that new building behind the wires rather than in front of the wires. Petitioner: No, it shouldn't be an issue. Sills: Just a comment of mine. But I do appreciate the fact that you do require the additional building, being that you do have all of these toys so to speak. Petitioner: Thanks. Sills: And you've got to have some place to put them and I agree we'd rather see them in the building rather than strewn all over so I think I could support this petition. Henzi: Mrs. McCue? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 55 November 13, 2012 McCue: You know, you have a relatively deep lot, you know it's a decent sized lot, in comparison to some of the other lots I guess is what I'm looking at. So to me yes, on one hand it concerns me basically proposing double the allowed space. But on the flip side I can kind of balance that with the depth of the lot. I reiterate what we said before about you know keeping things inside, and we'd much rather have two garages out there and I don't think you have much of a choice, I mean you have no basement, there's no place to put them. So either you have another garage or you put them outside, there's no choice. So that being said, and again, your wanting to move to Livonia, you're making improvements in Livonia, so all those give and takes I'd be willing to support. Henzi: Mr. Pastor? Pastor: Well, I'm struggling with this one because I'm not a proponent of two garages. don't have a problem with the side yard, backyard, front yard setback, that's not an issue with me, but two garages almost double what we allow, I'm struggling with this, especially when you're putting an upstairs in it. And I understand you don't have a basement, I get it, but I'm not comfortable with this particular plan as it's presented. There's no hard surface on this plan. We have no -we don't even have a building plan of the garage, it's just a square on a piece of paper. I did see the photo and I appreciate that, but that's not telling me that's what you're building. You have no materials presented. So at this particular moment, I don't think I can approve this as it's presented. I could approve something, there's no question about it, but the way this is, I'm not- I don't think I can approve it this way. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno? Caramagno: I'm a garage man, too, I love garages. I share some of Craig's concerns, the setback, the side yard means little to me on this situation. I mean your plan for the property is only going to make this much, much nicer. I can see that. You don't have a lot of detail here on what it's going to look like other than the computer you sent around the table and that was not part of this package. If it were me I'd build one bigger garage, there's a lot of square foot here you're looking at, almost as big as the home. I'd rather table it and see a more concise and proper- better described plan is what I'd like to see. Henzi: I certainly will approve an excess but I think this should be tabled because you're asking us to approve two significant structures without a plan and a lot of the petitioners that come before us have plans what it's going to look like. Here we've heard talk about remodeling and I'm sure it's going to look nice but I have no idea what the remodel job is going to look like. And if you're telling me I'm going to build exactly what's on the 1-Pad, I think that that would be great but I don't have the plans and because I don't have the plans I'm leery about it so that would be my preference, to table it for those reasons, too. Pastor: Mr. Chair? Henzi: Mr. Pastor? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 55 November 13, 2012 Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Caramagno, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-54: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by David Pocock, 20515 Merriman, seeking to erect a second detached garage and a rear addition to a nonconforming dwelling. The addition now places the existing detached garage within the side yard, which is not allowed. Detached garages must be in the rear yard. Nonconformity of the existing dwelling is based on the existing front yard setback of 20 feet where 50 feet is required. Number of garages Allowed: One Proposed: Two Excess: One Detached garage Allowed: 720 sq ft Proposed: 1340 sq ft (768 sq ft proposed) Excess: 620 sq ft Garage Height Allowed: 16ft Proposed: 20ft Excess: 4ft The property is located on the west side of Merriman (20515) between Norfolk and Eight Mile, be tabled for the following reasons: 1. So the Petitioner can present more detailed plans for the garage to enable the Board to make a well-informed decision. 2. That the administrative ruling regarding the addition is overturned and that the addition may be built as presented. 3. The Board received one (1) letter of approval and two (2} letters of objection from neighboring property owners. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Caramagno, McCue, Mcintyre, Sills, Henzi NAYS: ABSENT: Duggan Henzi: This case is tabled. The next available meeting is December 11th, just call Marilyn in the ZBA office by Wednesday, November 28th Petitioner: What are we tabling, just the garage or are we tabling the addition and the other work as well? I mean can we table the garage? Representative: I've got prints already printed up for this one here. At the point we never had an opportunity when we submitted a request to go to the Building Department, it was denied immediately. So versus him paying for blueprints for all this we didn't go that far with it yet. We wanted to see what we would be approved for at this point. Petitioner: The variance, we can present the plans, I mean we're not going to- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 55 November 13, 2012 Representative: I've got plans at my office for this other garage right here and I can duplicate those tomorrow as far as that goes. Henzi: I'd like to see that, frankly I think that's backwards, to get the variance and then submit the plans. That's my opinion. I'm not the homeowner. If I were, I might have a different opinion. Pastor: We weren't doing anything about the addition itself, right? Henzi: I don't think it affects it, I don't know, Mike? Fisher: Well, this says the addition now places the existing garage within the side yard which is not allowed, so that's what they're alluding to. Petitioner: That's what I said, are we tabling the actual garage or are we tabling the whole project? We can always submit the plans and come back for the garage. Representative: I think if we can move forward with the addition portion, we can get on the agenda for December and we'll set up for the garage at that point in time, we'll bring up the plans back at that point in time. Henzi: So you're looking to dig footings? Representative: Yes. We've got footings in it now and we have a deadline as far as getting concrete set and poured and getting block laid and stuff like that. Pastor: I can amend the tabling resolution to allow the addition onto the house but table the garage if everybody is in consensus. Henzi: Yes, if you would just make clear that it doesn't affect the addition. Me personally, if they put the addition on, thus creating the existing garage in the side yard, I don't have a problem with that. Pastor: Is everyone fine with that? The Board (In unison): Yes. Petitioner: So should we submit the blueprints for the garage and come back to get approval on that? Henzi: Right. Contact the ZBA office and you can submit the same plan or something. What I tell everybody just take into consideration what was said tonight and then come back Petitioner: Sure. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 55 November 13, 2012 h Pastor: So was that tabling resolution, Mike, that we gave him permission to build the addition but not to build the additional garage? Fisher: Yes. We'll just say that you are overturning the administrative ruling as to the addition, how about that? Pastor: Fine. Henzi: Thank you. All set? Representative: And the deadline is the 281 you said to apply? Henzi: Yes. Representative: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 55 November 13, 2012 (8:26) APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-11-55: Mohsin Giryoun, west side of Greenland, (32649), between Hubbard and the cul-de-sac, seeking to convert an existing attached garage to living area and construct a detached garage, resulting in the detached garage being excess in area. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add? DeMeyer: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, good evening. Petitioner: How are you?. Henzi: Good. Can you tell us your name and address? Petitioner: Mohsin Giryoun. I'll make it easier for you. 32649 Greenland Court. Henzi: Mr. Giryoun, tell us why you want to construct the addition? Petitioner: Well, sir, I've been living there for more than 30 years and we need more living space and that's why I want to add the existing garage to house for living space and build a detached garage. I like where I am, I like the City of Livonia. Henzi: Did you contract with a builder? Petitioner: I'm sorry, sir? Henzi: Did you hire a builder or are you going to build this? Petitioner: I have a builder. Henzi: So, for instance in our packet we've got a garage design, it's a three bay garage? Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: What about the siding and shingles, are you going to match it to the house? Petitioner: Whatever it takes. If it takes bricks to match house, I can do that, siding. Henzi: Why do you need to keep the existing shed? Petitioner: Because we need the space. Henzi: What do you need it for? Petitioner: I have a lot of tools, I have a lawnmower, a lot of stuff. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 55 November 13, 2012 Henzi: Can you give us some detail? I mean you heard the guy before you tell how many cars he has, tractors, stuff like that. Petitioner: I have lawnmower, I mean I can never get a car in the garage, you know, for the past 30 years I haven't done that, very seldom, there's not enough space. I have tools, I have lawnmower. We have riding lawnmower, a blower, all that kind of stuff. Petitioner: (Malah) The shed is two compartments, it's not just one big thing for tools. There's one side that's like a changing room for - we have a pool so we use it to change. So it's not as big as it looks from the outside because it's split. Henzi: Does the home have a basement? Petitioner: (Mohsin) Yes, sir. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioners? Petitioner: (Malah) We also have two trailers. He hauls a lot of stuff on trailers so it's just sitting in the backyard, it doesn't look- I mean if we had someplace to store them, it would be nice. Henzi: Any other questions of the Petitioners? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: What is the size of your current garage now, the one that's attached, what is the dimensions? Petitioner: (Mohsin) The one I have now? Caramagno: Yes, the one attached to the house. Petitioner: (Mohsin) It like 20 by 24. Caramagno: So, 20 by 24 and you intend to add that to the house, that's attached to the home? Petitioner: (Malah) Convert that to the home. Caramagno: What are you going to make, what room is that going to be? Petitioner: (Mohsin) Probably a family room. Caramagno: Why do you need the extra space? Page40 of 55 November 13, 2012 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Petitioner: (Mohsin) We need it because we've got 1,400 square feet, not even that, it's not enough. We have three people in the house, three small bedrooms, just we need the space. Caramagno: Well, tell me why you need this. You've been there how many, you said three years or 30 years? Petitioner: (Malah) Thirty. Caramagno: Why all of a sudden do you need all this space? Petitioner: (Mohsin) Because I've been working all my life, I was busy, busy, busy working but right now I want to spend a little more time at the house and we need more room. Petitioner: (Malah) My grandmother just came in from Chicago, she's living with us now so that took up my room, so all three rooms are right next to each other. Caramagno: So you gave up your room? Petitioner: (Malah) Yes. Caramagno: Good for you. That's all I have for right now. Henzi: Can you say your name? Petitioner: (Malah) My name is Malah Giryoun, I'm his son. Henzi: Can you tell me what you're proposing? I'm interested in just the process. So you basically want to renovate the existing garage into a family room so it will have heat and electrical, so that's going to be a major construction project. Petitioner: (Mohsin) You know, the washroom has always been a problem. It used to be in the basement and it was very difficult and we had problems because we had the sump pump and the sewer all the way to the bottom of the floor, it's in the middle, so a part of that garage will be the washroom. And then we have that and the rest will be a family room. Henzi: Do you have any plans of what that's going to look like? Petitioner: (Mohsin) It's going to look nice, I can tell you that, we're going to make it nice. Henzi: Well, I don't dispute that because that's a nice street but one of my biggest concerns is I don't want your family room to still look like a garage. I want it to look like it was always a family room so I'm asking do you have a plan or a picture of what it's going to look like. You've got to take the doors out, so what are you going to do? Page41 of 55 November 13, 2012 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Petitioner: (Mohsin) I will take the doors out, probably add some windows, put some probably what do you call that, Styrofoam in there so it will be nice and warm, probably hardwood floor. Henzi: Dennis, this is a question for you. If a petitioner like this was approved, so they've got two facets to their project, they're going to renovate the existing garage, turn it into livable space and then they're going to build a garage. Do they have to do it in sequence or could they do it both? How do you handle the permits? DeMeyer: I believe in the past it's doing the conversion first. Henzi: Okay. Because you want to make sure they follow through, right? DeMeyer: Exactly. As you suggested, better plans, as to the garage conversion. Henzi: So if they were approved, they might have a plan approved where they could do both things but in the field you require them to do, turn it into livable space so they don't have two garages and then they build the garage? DeMeyer: That's correct. Petitioner: (Mohsin) I would want to start the renovation of the existing garage but I have too much stuff in there that I have to put somewhere. Henzi: Any other questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Your existing garage is approximately 480 square feet, can you tell me why you need to go to 1,000, more than double that your existing garage is? Petitioner: (Mohsin) I said earlier we've got four cars, and I have a lot of tools. Pastor: What do you do for a living? Petitioner: (Mohsin) I have my own business. Pastor: What do you do for a living? Petitioner: (Mohsin) I have my own business. Pastor: What is that business? Petitioner: (Mohsin) I have gas stations, rental homes, things like that. Pastor: Do you plan on putting any kind of shop in this garage? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page42 of 55 November 13, 2012 Petitioner: (Mohsin) I'm sorry, sir? Pastor: Do you plan on putting any kind of shop in this garage? Petitioner: (Mohsin) Shopping? Pastor: Shop, like a workshop? Petitioner: (Mohsin) Not at all. I have a scissor lift that I need to change the lights and all that so I want to keep it in the garage. Pastor: So you have a scissor lift? Petitioner: (Mohsin) Scissor lift, yes. Henzi: He's asking you if you're going to build stuff and sell it out of the garage? Petitioner: (Mohsin) No, no, no. I've already been working 40 years, I don't want to do no more work. McCue: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: You said you had two trailers as well, correct? Petitioner: (Mohsin) Yes. McCue: What do you use those trailers for? Petitioner: (Mohsin) The one trailer is- I bought it by mistake and the other trailer I use it for the scissor lift because it weighs 3,000 pounds and I have to have a trailer for it. And the other trailer that I bought it's for sale, I couldn't find a smaller trailer for the scissor lift, so I bought the first one. McCue: But you're not necessarily running your business out of that? Petitioner: (Mohsin) No, not at home, I haven't done that in the past 30 years. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I've got to ask, why do you own a scissor lift? Petitioner: (Mohsin) The scissor? Pastor: Why do own a scissor lift? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page43 of 55 November 13, 2012 Petitioner: (Mohsin) Because I own gas stations and I need to change the lights in there. Pastor: Okay, thank you. Henzi: So you're taking the scissor lift around to your properties on a trailer to change the lights? Petitioner: (Mohsin) Yes. Henzi: I want to go back to the accessory building. So we talked about one half is a changing station for the pool; and then what's the other half, is that all storage, lawn equipment and such? Petitioner: (Mohsin) Yes. We have a riding lawnmower, I used to be a mechanic before, I have a lot of tools in there I haven't used in a long time, air compressor. I'm usually never home. I have a lot of tools, I've been collecting tools all my life. Henzi: Okay. Anything else, any other questions? Hearing none, is there anybody in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? Seeing no one come forward, can you read the letters? Caramagno: Yes. Michael and Victoria Ewald at 32639 and 32629 Greenland Court, (letter read), objection. Catherine Vanecek, 32649 Greenland, (letter read), objection. Diane Chamberlin, 16808 Fairfield, (letter read), objection. Bill and Gisela Blevins, 16361 Hubbard, (letter read), objection. Marlene Alexander, 16425 Hubbard, (letter read), objection. Diane Luoto, 16782 Fairfield, (letter read), objection. J.D. Lizbinski, 16756 Fairfield, (letter read), objection. Henzi: Mr. Giryoun, anything you want to say in closing? Petitioner: (Mohsin) I like where I am and want to stay there and I'm not doing this to make the neighborhood look terrible. I'm going to make sure it looks good and match, match the house. There will be no commercial use out of there at all, I haven't done that in the entire 30 years. Petitioner: (Malah) Why are people that don't even live on the street questioning it? It doesn't really make sense. Henzi: Notices go out to anyone that lives within 300 feet. And we like to hear from neighbors who live on Fairfield whose properties would back up would have to say because they're the ones that are going to have to look at it. Petitioner: (Malah) That's not even the right street. McCue: Yes, it is. They're right here, they're right behind the property. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page44 of 55 November 13, 2012 Petitioner: (Malah) You can't see from there unless you're sitting on top of a tall structure or something. You can't see through all those woods, no way. Henzi: Anything else? Petitioner: (Mohsin) I like where we're at and we want to stay, I don't want to look for another house. I mean I love Livonia, I've lived here for more than 30 years and you know as far as their concerns, I will make sure that it will add to the neighborhood, make it look nice. I will make it a nice building, not have it look like a garage, whatever their concern is. It's where I live, and it's probably where I'm going to die. Henzi: Okay. I'll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board's comments with Mr. Sills. Sills: I know the area quite well, a very dear friend of mine lived on Greenland and they moved away, they moved to the western part of the state. I don't know if you knew the Blairs, did you know John Blair? Petitioner: (Mohsin) I think so. I'm usually working, I'd get home, you know, late at night and leave early morning. Sills: They were very, very pleased with the neighborhood and one of the things that they enjoyed most of all was the park like setting that you're living in. It's not a subdivision, it's kind of a rural neighborhood and they liked that. They had deer right in the back of their property and all of that kind of stuff. I'm a type of person that goes along with the neighborhood and it doesn't appear as though many of your neighbors are in agreement with you and I think they have a lot to say about what your property would look like after you got done building this big garage in the back and things and I think it would be rather busy back there with the pool and the garages and all the other things you've got. You don't have any support from your neighbors so I'm not going to approve this. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I'm going to agree with Mr. Sills on a couple avenues here. Number one, I don't know if we have a whole lot of details on exactly how the project is going to be built out, plans, any of that. But more than that I agree when we have that many neighbors that are disagreeing with what we're doing, I am not inclined to support any variance that's going to go against that many people. If they feel that strongly, if that many people felt strongly enough to spend the time writing detailed letters like they did, then that's something we need to look at. So I do not think I would be able to support this. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yes. I found no compelling reason why you needed such a large garage other than I want it. You have no detail of what you're going to put in the garage other than a trailer and maybe another trailer, so I would think about tabling this if you'd like and give City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page45 of 55 November 13, 2012 you another opportunity to come back in front of us but as it's proposed, I just can not support this. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: You took a beating from the neighbors we haven't seen here in a long time. You had no support, nothing. Petitioner: (Malah) Only one of those is a neighbor. Caramagno: And then living there 30 years, this is amazing. Petitioner: (Mohsin) We never had a problem with anybody. Caramagno: Craig suggested a tabling motion, I think something can be done here it's just this is not it. I would support tabling it but I'd also suggest you speak to your neighbors because there's something wrong here. Henzi: Mrs. Mcintyre. Mcintyre: I think the size of the garage is excessive given that you already have an existing shed and I understand it has a dual purpose but you were granted a variance for that. Now you don't have an excessively small, I mean you do have a basement and I'm generally very, very supportive of variances when they're reasonable and when you allow people to do the things that they need to do to live their every day lives. It sounds like you're storing a lot of equipment that's commercial in nature, you know, a scissor lift, trailers, if these were all things that were residential in nature I might take a different view of it but the fact that you're looking to store what at least sounds to me like commercial equipment, you've already been granted a variance for an existing out building, I'm not comfortable and I couldn't support this as written. Henzi: I would support an excess in the garage area but only if the shed comes down. That to me is one or the other. What's interesting to me is that the Ewalds that live next door, Mr. Ewald spoke very highly of you when he was here in 2003, he was in favor of the shed. And he didn't make any disparaging comments about you in his letter, in fact he was favorable again, but the sense that I get is that there's a very strong feeling among the neighbors that they don't want a huge garage and I appreciate that. But by the same token, you know, this is right in that area between Five and Six and Middlebelt where Livonia has too small of a garage ordinance in my opinion. That's my opinion only. So I would give you a break because you've got a huge lot and again, like I say, 1,380 square feet for a total out building is not appropriate so I would go along with a tabling motion. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page46 of 55 November 13, 2012 Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Caramagno, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-55: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Mohsin Giryoun, 32649 Greenland, seeking to convert an existing attached garage to living area and construct a detached garage being excess in area. Detached Garage Area Allowed: 720 sq ft Proposed: 1080 sq ft Excess: 360 sq ft Total Out Building Area Allowed: 920 sq ft Proposed: 1380 sq ft (including proposed garage and existing 300 sq ft accessory bldg.) Excess: 460 The property is located on the west side of Greenland (32649) between Hubbard and the cul-de-sac, be tabled for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. So the Petitioner can take into account the Board's comments and neighbors' comments and present more detailed plans so the Board can make a well- informed decision. 2. The Board received zero (0) letters of approval and seven (7) letters of objection from neighboring property owners. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Caramagno, McCue, Mcintyre, Sills, Henzi NAYS: ABSENT: Duggan Henzi: This case is tabled. As I told the case before you, if you call the ZBA office by November 28th, you can be put on the December 11th meeting and you can submit the same plan or a different plan but really take into consideration what we said. Good luck. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page47 of 55 November 13, 2012 (8:55) APPEAL CASE NO. 2012-11-56: Comerica Bank, south of Five Mile (31425), between Arden and Merriman, seeking to erect a wall sign while maintaining a ground sign, which is not allowed. Only a ground or wall sign is allowed for this zoning district and single tenant building site. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add? DeMeyer: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for Dennis? Hearing none, good evening. Petitioner: (Gene) Good evening. I'm Gene Diachenko, from Euko Design Signs, we're Comerica Bank's sign contractor. Petitioner: (Eva) Eva Diachenko, Euko Design Signs. Petitioner: (Gene) 24849 Hathaway, Farmington Hills. Henzi: We're familiar with that building, of course, tell us why you need the second sign. Petitioner: (Gene) Well, the bank has a branding program going on and has for a number of years. All of their new sites and renovated sites for the last eight years plus, have all had tower structures with wall signs and with monument or pylon signs appropriate for those. This would be the only site, literally, in the entire state, that wouldn't have a wall sign. So we feel that it's a hardship for the bank to maintain its signage program and the branding of the corporate image. The sign itself was approved through Planning and through the City Council for the signage that was indicated by the architect. We didn't know about the signage part of it because we're the sign contractors and we're the last ones who get to know what's going on. Randy from the Building Department said we could utilize the existing pylon sign and meet City Code with respect to the Zoning but we still would have to go in for a variance for a wall sign whether there was a monument sign or a pylon sign so we are here to request that. We feel that adding a wall sign would actually help the public find where the entrance is because that site has a unique geometry to it where the tower logically should be at the corner where you can see it from multiple distances but it's located on basically the rear direction of the property with only one face facing Five Mile Road and that's creating a visual problem for people to actually find where the entrance is. It's a minor one but it is a little bit of a traffic flow issue with somebody coming to the site might not be able to really find where the entrance is because of the configuration facing the way it is. So we feel we'd really love to have a variance be granted for a 20 square foot sign which is appropriate for this structure. Henzi: And as a part of this branding program, does Comerica ask for pylon signs in addition to the building signs in its other locations? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page48 of 55 November 13, 2012 Petitioner: (Gene) Yes. And they've been granted that except for one of their sites out in Rochester that is part of a PUD development, but they were supposed to get a monument sign out which fell through because the contractor went out of business that was supposed to do the whole project. So they have this bank at the back part of this lot with a couple of wall signs but no monument sign identifying the property because the complex never went in. Henzi: Would the existing pylon sign be refaced? Petitioner: (Gene) It has been refaced, yes, we did get a permit for that properly and it already has been refaced. They technically changed our logo. Henzi: Yes, because it looks like the new one, you don't have to revise it further? Petitioner: (Gene) No, we don't have to revise it further. It maintains the same logo as the Livonia Operations Center that we had come in for a variance a couple years ago. It has a larger word bank and a smaller Comerica, compared to the old logo that was on there. It's a very minor difference. Henzi: So then is it your claim that this branch, if approved, would have two signs and that's the way that all the Comericas look? Petitioner: (Gene) Yes. Henzi: The prototype? Petitioner: (Gene) Well, it almost is a prototype. Most of the other cities that have been renovated or new structures put up, have at least one wall sign and a monument sign. A number of them have three wall signs and a monument sign so they try and work within the city code appropriately. Henzi: Okay. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor: Pastor: How many square feet is that pylon sign that you have up there? Petitioner: (Gene) That's roughly 3% foot by 17 foot. So that's 60 square feet, I'm sorry. Pastor: And how big is this sign that you're requesting, how many square feet? Petitioner: (Gene) Twenty-one, basically two foot by 10 foot. Pastor: So you're looking for 100 square foot of signage? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page49 of 55 November 13, 2012 Petitioner: (Gene) Yes. Pastor: Give or take. Petitioner: (Gene) And the other issue comes in, too, the property is zoned office but every property around, all the commercial strips, literally a lot of them have two to three wall signs. The gas station across the street has four logos on their canopy plus two wall signs so we're not really on an equal footing as far as signage would be allowed. Pastor: But you also back up to a residential subdivision as well? Petitioner: (Gene) Correct. Pastor: Whereas the gas stations don't? Petitioner: (Gene) Yeah, I think you're right, sorry. I thought there was residential just to the south of that but I'm not positive. Pastor: When I went by there the other day, I just happened to go by when it was night, I had no problem finding that sign or that bank. I mean that sign is large and bright and proud. I really, in my opinion, don't see the absolute need for this unless you have a different reason. Petitioner: (Gene) To maintain corporate branding and identity. Pastor: That's not in our charter. That sounds like for more profit. Petitioner: (Gene) I understand where you're coming from. To maintain the corporate identity with what they've been doing with their renovated branches, it would maintain by allowing the wall sign. Pastor: Talking to the Building Department, what is the average signage on a bank, do we know? DeMeyer: I can't answer that, I don't know. Petitioner: (Gene) I can tell you the three Bank of Americas we closed two weeks ago in Livonia, the wall signs vary from 2 foot to 12 foot. One was 2 Y, foot by 14 foot. And the third one was 2 foot by 12 foot again. Pastor: I'm looking for a total square footage for signage on the building. Petitioner: (Gene) They all had monument signs also. Pastor: As big as this? Petitioner: (Gene) One of them, yes, the other two they were a little bit smaller because they were complete monuments, they weren't pole signs. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 55 November 13, 2012 Pastor: Thank you. McCue: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: The monument sign, and I think you probably said this, but it's just been refaced, is that correct? Petitioner: (Gene) Correct. Painted as far as the fresh grey paint, blue paint. McCue: But again, following ordinance because you didn't replace that sign, you refaced it? Petitioner: (Gene) Refaced it, yes. McCue: Okay, thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Caramagno: I had one but I can't remember what it was. Petitioner: (Gene) The other bank sites in Livonia do have pylon signs and wall signs, the Laurel Park branch has a very large wall sign, it's 4 foot by 18 foot, along with the pylon approaching the exact same size. Caramago: You said the other Comericas? Petitioner: (Gene) Yes. Caramagno: That was my other question. How many Comerica Banks in Livonia? Petitioner: (Gene) There's one at Five Mile and Levan, which is in the middle of a residential area, completely separate from the medical suite to the east of it. That is a monument sign only. That's the only one. Caramagno: That's the only one? Petitioner: (Gene) Five Mile and Levan, Laurel Park, the Operations Center at Six Mile and Haggerty, those are it. Caramagno: There's four buildings there now. Wasn't there another Comerica sign on that bank? Petitioner: (Gene) No. Caramagno: There was always just the pylon sign? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 55 November 13, 2012 Petitioner: (Gene) Just the pylon sign. Caramagno: Okay, thanks. Henzi: Any other questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: This has got a pylon sign, not a monument sign? Petitioner: (Gene) Correct. Pastor: The other bank that has a monument sign, how big is that? Petitioner: (Gene) That's only 2 foot by 10 foot. Pastor: So 20 square feet? Petitioner: (Gene) 20 square feet, 21 technically with the configuration. Pastor: So you're asking - Petitioner: (Gene) I apologize, it's more than that, 28 square feet. It has an ATM Banking Center. Pastor: So, are you going to be back here next week, next month, next year, for another sign on that building as well? Petitioner: (Gene) No. Not unless they go in for a renovation which isn't what we know as far as what's on the agenda, we don't know of any other Livonia sites being renovated. I think they're doing them strictly how bad a building is and that building was actually quite bad. Pastor: So you have 28 square feet there and you're asking for almost 100 square feet here? Petitioner: (Gene) Yes, sir. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Petitioner: (Gene) Well, actually we're only asking, we're only asking for a 20-foot variance. Because the existing sign meets Code. Pastor: I'm talking about total signage, that's all I'm referring to. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 55 November 13, 2012 Petitioner: (Gene) Sorry. Henzi: Mr. Fisher, the way that I approached the case there's wall sign area but there's also number of wall signs, right, they're proposing two and they're allowed one? Fisher: I guess you could say that. Henzi: Okay. I see no one in the audience. Are there letters? Caramagno: Cheryl Bowker, 31221 Five Mile Road, approval (letter read). Arthur Mitchell at 31520 West Five Mile Road writes an objection (letter read). Theodore and Dorothy Barker at 15208 Arden, objection, (letter read). Ronald Frank, 15160 Melrose, objection (letter read). Henzi: Anything you'd like to say in closing? Petitioner: (Gene) As far as the comments the neighbors made, are they properties that actually face the wall? Caramagno: One was on Arden, I think that's your side street there, Arden is the side street. Melrose is another side street there. Arden is the first street west of Merriman, Melrose is the second street in. Petitioner: (Gene) As far as who would actually be able to see the sign or not? Henzi: The homeowner adjacent. Anything else? Petitioner: (Gene) That's it. Henzi: I'll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board's comments with Mrs. McCue. McCue: I will be in support of this. I think it's somewhat unfortunate for the bank in general, just coming from corporate myself, that it's zoned for office. Because when you see other banks in the area they do typically speaking have one on the building and one as a monument sign. I agree, I'm a big believer in following the ordinances, I don't like to break a lot of the signing ordinances, but I don't feel that this 21square feet is anything that is too huge or above and beyond expectation, you just want to be able to have one sign on your building to identify where the door is. And I think when we talk about monument signs on the flip side, that follows code because again, you didn't tear that down and erect a new one. So all those things considered, it sounds like maybe some of it, people that had stated weren't in support maybe weren't sure exactly what it is that you were asking for, you know they're talking about obstruction and whatever, but we're really talking about the building sign, I don't think that's going to be an issue. So all in all I'm going to be in support of this. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 55 November 13, 2012 Pastor: The 21 square feet is not a lot extra sign although it is some, but I don't think I can support this, I don't see it necessary for this building. Your pole sign, your sign out front there's no way no one can't see it, we can probably see it from the windows here, it's out there, it's large, you can see it from all directions. Granted I understand you want to identify your front door but lots of businesses don't have a sign over the front door so I don't think I can support this. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: There's no doubt you've got a pretty nice monument sign or pole sign, whatever you want to call it, it's probably one of the nicest around there. Is 21 square feet above that door going to kill that area? There's got to be thousands of signs around in that area, thousands of square footage in signs, 21 square feet is not going to kill this deal for me, I'll approve it. Henzi: Mrs. Mcintyre: Mcintyre: I'm also happy to see a bank or any business remodeled and upgraded other than being closed and you know I understand brand identity. We're not here to boost people's brands, that's not our mission, but at the same time we're here to keep a consistent look in Livonia, compliance, but certainly not to discourage our businesses from regenerating and I think this is acceptable and esthetically pleasing and I do think it does add a level of clarity as to where you come into the bank so I will be supporting this. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: The branch has been there a long time and I just wish it would have been facelifted years ago. You've done a very nice job in reconstructing the bank and I think probably 80 percent of the people that go there don't really need a sign but I don't see any objection to this sign so I'm going to approve it. Henzi: I agree with Mrs. Mcintyre's comment and I think it would look more awkward without the sign than it would with it, so I'll approve. The floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Mcintyre, supported by Sills, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-56: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Comerica Bank, 31425 Five Mile, seeking to erect a wall sign while maintaining a ground sign, which is not allowed. Only a ground or wall sign is allowed for this zoning district and single tenant building site. Wall sign area Allowed: 0 sq ft Proposed: 21 sq ft Excess: 21 sq ft City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 55 November 13, 2012 The property is located at 31425 Five Mile between Arden and Merriman, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because this is the new consistent branding look for all of the new and remodeled Comerica Bank sites. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because this would be the only branch in Michigan not in compliance with Comerica's corporate signage program. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because it doesn't promote any hardship or esthetic compromise for any neighbors in the area. 4. The Board received one (1) letter of approval and three (3) letters of objection from neighboring property owners. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because it is zoned "Office" and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the signage be placed as presented. 2. That the variance is conditioned upon City Council Resolution 133-11. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Mcintyre, Sills, McCue, Caramagno, Henzi, NAYS: Pastor ABSENT: Duggan Henzi: The variance is granted with those two conditions. Good luck. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 55 November 13, 2012 There being no further business to come before the Board, the .meeting adjourned at 9:15p.m. ARAMAGNO, Secretary an /bjm