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City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 37 January 18, 2011
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
CITY OF LIVONIA
MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING HELD JANUARY 18, 2011
MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman
Terry Moran, Vice Chairman
Sam Caramagno, Secretary
Toni Aloe
Ken Harb
Craig Pastor
MEMBERS ABSENT: Robert Sills
OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney
John Podina, City Inspector
Helen Mininni, Court Reporter
The meeting was called to order at 7:03 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules
of Procedure to those interested parties. Each Petitioner must give their name and
address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are
made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that
appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The
decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following
the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four
decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or
to table for further information. Each Petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7)
member Board. Five (5) Members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if
anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary
then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each Petitioner indicated
their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all
interested parties within 300 feet, Petitioners and City Departments. There were five
persons present in the audience.
______________________________________________________________________
(7:03 #1/640)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-01-03: Ronald and Mary Trotter, 15910 Hubbard,
Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to maintain a 7-ft. tall wooden privacy fence, a portion
of which extends into the side yard, which is not allowed, and which was erected
without the approval of the adjoining neighbor and without a permit, and with the
posts facing the exterior of the lot of the person erecting the fence. Petitioner is
also seeking to maintain split rail fencing in the front yard, at a length of 40 ft. in a
single direction. Also, seeking to maintain a 4 ft. tall woven wire fence (chicken
wire), which is not allowed on residential property.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 37 January 18, 2011
Length of
Fence Height Front Yard Fence
Allowed: 6 ft. 4 in. Allowed: 20 ft.
Proposed: 7 ft. 0 in. Proposed/Existing: 40 ft.
Excess: 0 ft. 8 in. Excess: 20 ft.
Petitioner amended petition at meeting to delete chicken wire:
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-01-03: Ronald and Mary Trotter, 15910 Hubbard,
Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to maintain a 7-ft. tall wooden privacy fence, a portion
of which extends into the side yard, which is not allowed, and which was erected
without the approval of the adjoining neighbor and without a permit, and with the
posts facing the exterior of the lot of the person erecting the fence. Petitioner is
also seeking to maintain split rail fencing in the front yard, at a length of 40 ft. in a
single direction.
Length of
Fence Height Front Yard Fence
Allowed: 6 ft. 4 in. Allowed: 20 ft.
Proposed: 7 ft. 0 in. Proposed/Existing: 40 ft.
Excess: 0 ft. 8 in. Excess: 20 ft.
The property is located on the east side of Hubbard (15910) between Five Mile Road and
Myrna.
Henzi: Mr. Podina, anything to add to this case?
Podina: Nothing to add at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, will the Petitioner
please come to the podium?
Henzi: Good evening.
Petitioner: Good evening. My name is Mary Trotter, t-r-o-t-t-e-r and my husband, Ronald
Trotter. Our address is 15910 Hubbard in Livonia, Michigan.
Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Trotter, why don’t you tell us why it is you want to keep this
decorative split-rail fence and the privacy fence in the backyard.
Petitioner: Yes.
Mr. Trotter: I’ll let her do all the talking. She prepared all the paperwork.
Petitioner: We are seeking a zoning variance to maintain a wood privacy fence and a
decorative wood split-rail fence, both are located on the south property line. Before I go
any further, I wanted to bring a correction up on the public notice. Just under the appeal
case number at the last sentence, it says: “also seeking to maintain a four foot tall woven
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 37 January 18, 2011
wire fence, chicken wire.” That’s incorrect. My letter to the variance board indicated that
– under correction, we were removing that wire fence.
Henzi: Has it been removed?
Petitioner: No, it has not. The snow has impacted it so we’re going to be removing that
once the snow has melted.
Henzi: Thank you.
Petitioner: Uh-huh. I would like to – at this time I also would like to present five signed
comments for consideration regarding this appeal. Do I --
Henzi: Just give them to Ms. Mininni.
Petitioner: There. With regard to the wooden privacy fence, it was installed in the
summer and fall of 2006 using a private outside survey that we had done on our
property. It sits four inches – the entire fence sits four inches inside our property line
and we have had no complaints from the homeowner that shares that property line.
The fence height is in excess of eight inches and that eight inches gives us just the right
amount of privacy based on the height of the neighbor’s addition. As this fence goes
down our property line heading toward the east, we do have a step down in the fence
that maintains the proper height that is required by the City. I didn’t understand, I
wanted to ask clarification on the appeal case where it says: “a portion of which extends
into the side yard.” I didn’t know – sometimes property yards are considered side yards
but I didn’t know. It’s inside our property by four inches based on the outside survey.
So, I didn’t understand.
Henzi: Mr. Podina, do you understand what she is asking?
Podina: No. I’m sorry.
Petitioner: It says under the appeal case on the public notice after our name and
address it says: “seeks to maintain a seven foot tall wooden privacy fence, a portion of
which extends into the side yard.” Now, I didn’t know if that means is it encroaching into
someone else’s because we used an outside survey and we have stakes that we had in
a line that we put down to put the fence up.
Mr. Trotter: Some of the people we talked to assumed that it was on the neighbor’s
property instead of on our property. That’s what they thought that meant.
Fisher: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Fisher.
Fisher: That’s not what that means.
Petitioner: Okay.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 37 January 18, 2011
Fisher: What it means is, you’re not allowed to bring a privacy fence beyond the back
building line of your house.
Petitioner: Oh, okay.
Fisher: Towards the street in other words. It can’t be any closer to the street than the
back of the line of your house.
Petitioner: Oh, okay. Great. This privacy fence was to maintain the privacy of our
backyards and to give us privacy because we do have an in-ground pool to enjoy our
backyard and the neighbor’s addition – the garage had changed the face of the location
in, you know, toward our backyard.
Mr. Trotter: As you can see by the pictures.
Petitioner: That we provided. It is wood and it is maintained and, you know, we like it
and we do enjoy our privacy currently right now with the fence. With regard to the
decorative split rail fence, this fence was installed on May 8, 2010. It’s sits five inches
inside the property line again using our property survey – private survey I should say.
This fence consists of five posts totaling 40 inches long and it carries two rails parallel to
the ground. This fence was just installed to improve the appearance between two
driveways and to provide character from a street level. The split-rail fence does not
obstruct the vision of motorists nor is it a burden in our fence. It was just to beautify the
area. It’s kind of like dead grass that is there. So, we’re just seeking the variance of
the split rail and the wood privacy fence.
Henzi: Thanks. As I look in your packet, I see that there are some photographs.
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: Dated August 24, 2010.
Petitioner: Correct.
Henzi: Did you take those and turn them in with your packet?
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: Can you go through those and tell us what we’re looking at?
Petitioner: All right. And I know I submitted several.
Henzi: So the first one in our packet shows the decorative split-rail fence. If it’s your
property, it looks like it’s taken from your neighbor’s vantage point? I could be wrong.
Petitioner: Yes. I think those were taken by the ordinance department, I think.
Henzi: Okay.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 37 January 18, 2011
Petitioner: I submitted these.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: I apologize.
Henzi: So, the ones that you supplied, are – you gave us original prints?
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: Okay. Tell us what we are looking at in those.
Petitioner: Those are just from a street area, you know, as you are walking down
Hubbard – for the split-rail that is, and you can see that it starts at where there’s a bush
up by the front where there’s a red truck and it goes down and then there’s two rails that
taper down into the ground. This fence is made so that if anybody leans on it, it’s
stable, it’s intact so that it won’t fall or anything like that. So, I just took it from different
angles so that you could see the different types of views.
Henzi: And then as you go to the second page, there are three photos there. Are those
all taken from the vantage point of your backyard?
Petitioner: That is correct, yes.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: And one consists of the pool where we’re cleaning the pool.
Mr. Trotter: And to see where – to show the privacy, you know, that we would have
maintaining this fence.
Henzi: If you look at the top photograph, as you’re looking at your neighbor’s property
there’s to the left, I believe that’s the garage. It’s a larger structure to the left extending
– do you see where I’m looking?
Petitioner: I think so.
Henzi: And then is that a breezeway in between the garage and the existing home?
Mr. Trotter: The neighbor’s house?
Henzi: Neighbor’s house.
Mr. Trotter: No, it’s actually part of his home.
Petitioner: It’s just like --
Henzi: Okay. What was – describe for me what was added on.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 37 January 18, 2011
Petitioner: The first, if you look on the side of the house – of his house, there was two
windows on the side --
Mr. Trotter: The picture from the front, from the front of the house. If you look at --
Petitioner: The original house just had two windows facing the north side and then he
added everything from the back toward his detached garage at the time. Now, I did
provide an aerial view if you needed because of the weather so, you know, during the
winter that it is hard to see. I did provide an aerial view if you needed that and it just
shows – I didn’t mark on there, but --
Mr. Trotter: What looks like a breezeway to you, there’s actually two porches, two doors
facing our house, one in the front like a breezeway and one in the back. And then the
addition, the bathroom, a balcony I guess on the inside windows, you know, so it’s kind
of all opened up.
Henzi: I think the two windows describe it for me.
Petitioner: I originally had two windows facing my property and I have 20 plus --
Mr. Trotter: Two more porches in the back facing my house.
Henzi: When did the neighbor add on to his house?
Mr. Trotter: When the fence went up about five years ago.
Petitioner: It was about five. It was just like we just wanted to maintain our privacy and
enjoy our backyard and him as well just so that, you know --
Mr. Trotter: That addition was kind of completed that’s when I put the fence up, you
know, but I didn’t put the fence up in poor taste, you know, because I like to look at it too
and it’s, you know, try to make it look nice.
Henzi: Well, that’s the question I have for you before other Board members ask
questions is, have you obtained written approval from your neighbor for the privacy
fence?
Petitioner: No, we had no complaints up until this point and if it was, we would have
addressed it immediately.
Henzi: I understand that, but since filing and dealing with the Inspection Department for
about six months during that time since August when you first received a violation, did
you get an approval from your neighbor to continue to have the privacy fence?
Petitioner: No, we did not. When I got the notice of violation, I immediately came to the
City. I spoke to a gentleman named Randy. He got my file and he said you need to file
for a permit for the split rail and I did so. And at that time, when I got the permit
approved back in the mail, it indicated now I had to do an additional permit on the
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 37 January 18, 2011
wooden fence. It was not mentioned in the first notice or any of the notice of violation.
That’s why Randy was even confused when he was trying to help me with the matter.
Henzi: Did your neighbor refuse to give approval to allow the privacy fence to exist?
Petitioner: We did not –
Mr. Trotter: We assumed that he would –
Petitioner: -- since he made the complaint we just thought well, we’ll have to – we
wanted to make the notice violation correct. So, that’s why we applied for the permit,
but I was not told about the privacy fence in the original notice of violation. If you see,
there are only two notices of violations. I even had a meeting with a Jerome and he
could not explain to me why I was not told or mentioned about the wooden privacy
fence. So, then when I met with Jerome, he said you need to now go in front of the
variance – I can’t explain why you didn’t have the wooden, but it’s now in your split rail
it’s mentioned. He said I would go in front of the variance and get everything taken care
of.
Henzi: Is there some animosity between you and this neighbor?
Mr. Trotter: Because of this, yes.
Petitioner: We didn’t realize there was a problem until he had made – I didn’t know it,
nothing was brought to our attention prior to that. He never approached us first. We got
the notice of violation.
Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioners?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Kind of along the line of questioning Mr. Henzi had. Our ordinance says the
good side of the fence is supposed to face the neighbor and the good side of the fence
is facing you.
Mr. Trotter: Yes.
Petitioner: And we were keeping it if everybody else along our property has fences all
down the property, we were just keeping in line with that.
Mr. Trotter: In line.
Petitioner: That’s what we were, you know –
Mr. Trotter: Because my other neighbor has, he actually put up a steel post and he just
welded little hangers and he hanged his fence on that. So, it’s like I got that. He has
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 37 January 18, 2011
this and then my other neighbor that’s making the complaint, his is actually facing, you
know, the opposite side also. He’s got the good side and his runs the whole length of
the --
Petitioner: And I didn’t know --
Mr. Trotter: -- his yard.
Pastor: Okay. That will be all for right now.
Henzi: Okay, anybody else? Mr. Harb.
Harb: I have a question for Mike. Mike, are there any conditions that allows for the
fence greater than six feet, like are you allowed for industrial or --
Fisher: I’m thinking industrial and commercial zones the rules are different and they
probably allow taller fences.
Harb: I tried to find 18.4 --
Fisher: Let me look.
Harb: So, Mr. Trotter, you put up the fence?
Mr. Trotter: Yes.
Harb: Did you get any guidance as what was required for putting up the fence such as
getting permission from your next door neighbor and the good side facing –
Mr. Trotter: Nope, and I just put it up.
Harb: And that was over two years ago?
Petitioner: 2006.
Harb: ’06?
Petitioner: Yes.
Mr. Trotter: Yes.
Fisher: In answer to your question. Go to Ordinance Section 15.44.100 sub section A,
it says” in industrial districts fences shall not exceed eight feet in height.” Section
15.44.110 says: “fences which enclose parks, public and parochial school grounds,
public buildings or land used for recreational facilities, et cetera, also an eight foot
maximum height.”
Harb: But nothing for residential?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 37 January 18, 2011
Fisher: No.
Harb: Okay. Tell me, what was the purpose of having seven feet on a certain portion of
your fence and then six feet --
Mr. Trotter: I tried to make it like – when I put the fences up, I made the top line kind of
level and usually the ground in that area we have – it’s like a little, little --
Petitioner: Valley.
Mr. Trotter: -- valley in there. And plus in the front of my fence, I don’t know if you got
the paper that’s marked where I marked individual spots, you know, on the height. It is
6’4 in the front it and I went down and then a step down, you know, because of the
valley and because how he built his property up with gravel and crushed concrete, you
know, so everything sits a little higher, you know, goes up. He even has a four by four
or four by -- or six by six, you know, step when he put crushed concrete on and built his
addition up. So, it’s like a valley and then I just try to maintain a certain height and
certain level near ground level to make it look good.
Harb: So, it started at 6’5, it stayed at 6’5 --
Mr. Trotter: It went to six –
Harb: -- then it went to seven and then step back down. And then it went to --
Mr. Trotter: Yeah. And then at the very end I think I’ve got it marked where it’s eight
feet. That was just the cut-off point and that’s, you know, there’s only like an eight foot
section that’s probably about eight feet tall which could be cut down, but it would kind of
look funny.
Harb: Thank you for now.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: My other question was, what’s changed between you and your neighbor.
You’ve had this fence for almost five years. Is that when you started having fights?
What’s changed in the relationship?
Mr. Trotter: We never --
Petitioner: We didn’t complain, you know, anything - all of a sudden I got the public
notice and, you know, nothing was brought to our attention and I want to correct any
violations I might be under. If there was, I wish --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 37 January 18, 2011
Pastor: Your relationship with your neighbor nothing has changed? You’re still friends -
Mr. Trotter: No.
Petitioner: Well, he installed his fence.
Mr. Trotter: I installed his fence on his other side and it ended up being probably eight
feet for the full length and all he’s blocking is the woods. .
Petitioner: We were friends.
Mr. Trotter: And then the addition and then the garage, you know, that and then I put up
a privacy fence and he starts threatening me that he’s going to have me tear it down
and –
Petitioner: We didn’t know it was a problem.
Mr. Trotter: Yeah, after a few years and then the same with the split rail, you know, he’s
going to have - he threatened me. I had to call the police. He said, a bunch of people
were going to watch me tear down my fence.
Petitioner: And I enjoy my backyard as it is now. It gives me privacy and when I have
family over, they enjoy the backyard and it’s just without the fence, you know, we both
can do our business and not interrupt either one. They can go about their own thing for
the day, you know.
Pastor: This section where it’s built up, I’m going to say eight to 10 inches, I’ll say even
with the back of the garage. If we ask you to cut that down across the eight inches to
conform with the six feet or whatever the height of the ordinance --
Mr. Trotter: The last section, the eight feet?
Mr. Pastor: Well –
Mr. Trotter: Yeah, I kept that high because he has a basketball kind of court back there.
Pastor: I understand that. The ordinance says 6 feet 4.
Mr. Trotter: Well, there were a lot of people playing back there. He had kids come in
there and just, you know –
Pastor: My question is if he asked you to maintain 6 foot 4 --
Mr. Trotter: Yes, yes.
Pastor: -- do you have a problem?
Mr. Trotter: There’s no problem.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 37 January 18, 2011
Henzi: I don’t believe you answered Mr. Pastor’s first question. He’s asking when did
the problem start? So, would you please describe for us a timeline starting in 2006 the
privacy fence was erected and then go forward with the important dates of when, for
instance, when you constructed this split rail, when the addition was completed, when
the problems started because this Board wants to know whether you want to keep these
fences up because there’s a problem with the neighbor or because of the reasons that
you’ve stated in your application. And if it’s because of a problem with the neighbor like
playing basketball, then we want to know all those things before we make a decision.
So, please give us the timeline.
Petitioner: Well, we were just – since the addition went up and it – to me, it felt to us
that it changed the dynamics to our thing even though the City approved it, that’s fine. It
just changed the dynamics where I have instead of two windows, 20 plus --
Henzi: Mrs. Trotter, I’m going to stop you.
Petitioner: Oh, okay.
Henzi: I’m looking for dates.
Petitioner: It was – I mean we were friends up until all that time. I mean we had no
problem with him and then he did the notice of violation. I did not know that this –
Mr. Trotter: This wasn’t his primary home. He wasn’t even living here until a couple
years --
Henzi: Maybe I can help. Let’s start with the fence. Privacy fence goes up in what –
2006?
Petitioner: Yes, yes.
Henzi: When did his addition occur – around the same time?
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: 2006.
Petitioner: Correct.
Henzi: And then the decorative split rail went up at what time?
Petitioner: In the latter of –
Mr. Trotter: Last year.
Petitioner: May 8th of 2010, but that was just to decorate a piece of property that is --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 37 January 18, 2011
Henzi: A few months later in August, 2010 you’re visited by a member of the Inspection
Department and received your first notice of violation; is that correct?
Petitioner: Correct.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: But I did not know I was in the violation.
Henzi: Now, what happened between the date from 2006 until the time you got the
notice of violation that could have caused this acrimony between two neighbors?
Mr. Trotter: My split-rail fence is four inches on my property and I got a survey stake in
the ground which we paid for an outside survey which cost $750.00 and he had a
landscaper come in and he cut his grass. And then they weed wack and cut and just
cut right down the dirt on the split-rail fence and I didn’t want it damaged. So, I went out
there instead of saying anything I went to my marker and I put a stake in it where the
marker was. Well, he came out and he pulled it out. You can’t do that. I called the
police. I didn’t have the police come out I just wanted to know what could happen, you
know, if somebody is doing this. And they said, well, that’s your property. Well, I put
another stake in and then he called the police on me had them come out and the police
was taking the stake out and then all of a sudden they’re going to take it down. That’s
when he started calling.
Henzi: And that would have been last summer 2010, right?
Petitioner: Correct.
Henzi: So, the reason why we’re here is because of a dispute over whether the fence is
on whose property line and whether damage was created by his landscaping service?
Mr. Trotter: Yes.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that you had this privacy fence --
Mr. Trotter: For five years.
Aloe: -- all along. And then you added to the privacy fence?
Mr. Trotter: No.
Petitioner: No. The privacy fence has been the same from once it was put up in 2006.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 37 January 18, 2011
Aloe: Okay. Did you take a permit out in 2006 to put up the privacy fence?
Petitioner: No, I did not.
Aloe: Okay. Did you put the fence up or did you hire someone to put it up?
Mr. Trotter: I put it up.
Aloe: Okay. Why didn’t you get a permit?
Petitioner: I did not know. I apologize on that one.
Aloe: Okay. So this fence that’s – privacy fence that’s seven foot and then goes to 6.5,
it comes in front of your house, you’ve always had that there – since 2006.
Mr. Trotter: Five years.
Petitioner: Correct.
Aloe: Okay. The only thing that you’ve done since then is added this split rail on?
Mr. Trotter: Yes.
Aloe: Okay. And you didn’t --
Mr. Trotter: And then the wire fence in the back. I put that up.
Petitioner: But that’s coming down.
Aloe: The wire one, right. Okay. Did you take a permit out for the split rail?
Petitioner: No, I called and I was told about the – because I liked some of the split rails
in the neighborhood and I called the ordinance and I said is there anything I need to do
just to make sure everything is fine. And they said, no, it’s called a decorative fence
that you did not need a permit for a split rail. And they asked me if, you know, how
many rails is it going to be? I said two rails that were parallel to the ground.
Mr. Trotter: Then she got on the computer and also printed out a bunch of ordinance
and I thought I read that it said the split-rail fence was a decorative fence and there was
no permit allowed for it.
Petitioner: No permit needed.
Aloe: But the difference is where you put it because you put it in the front yard.
Mr. Trotter: Yeah.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 37 January 18, 2011
Aloe: Okay. And the wire fence that you had up is that a wire fence that’s between the
privacy and split rail; is that where I saw that?
Petitioner: Yes.
Mr. Trotter: No.
Petitioner: Oh, no, that’s in the back.
Mr. Trotter: In the back.
Petitioner: The very back of our property.
Mr. Trotter: Up against the privacy fence all the way to the back yard. We have an acre
and it’s just a long, long yard. It’s really long.
Aloe: So, you attached a wire fence to the privacy fence?
Petitioner: Yes.
Mr. Trotter: It was a green wire fence. It was three feet tall and it’s a green mesh, you
know, it’s not like your ordinary chicken wire, you know, it’s – I got a green to blend in
and yeah, I ran it along the property line.
Aloe: Why did you put that up?
Mr. Trotter: That was temporary – go ahead.
Petitioner: The neighbor indicated that we were coming on to his property and I
indicated I was not on his property so – to solve it I thought I would just put that up
temporarily and --
Mr. Trotter: Because we have two dogs and –
Aloe: But I don’t understand why you would do that. You have the privacy fence so
why would you go and add this green fence?
Mr. Trotter: No, the privacy --
Petitioner: The privacy only goes so far down the property line.
Mr. Trotter: It goes down to –
Aloe: That’s what I said. So, you used that to fill in between the privacy and –
Petitioner: He complained that we were – he commented that I was on his property and
so I just thought that would solve it just for a little bit, but it’s coming down.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 37 January 18, 2011
Mr. Trotter: It’s about 250 feet still to the backyard from the privacy fence to the end of
the yard. It’s still about 250 feet so that was just to keep – we got an old dog. It’s
getting old, he likes and he can’t hear too well. He likes to go in the back and that’s his
treat and walk.
Petitioner: Walk around.
Mr. Trotter: And walk, and he went over on the neighbor’s yard. He came and knocked
on the door and complained. So, cost-wise I put that up because I don’t think the dog
has much longer to live. So, you know, it’s temporary.
Aloe: Can I just ask you, did you ever call the City and make a complaint against your
neighbor?
Mr. Trotter: No.
Petitioner: Yeah, on this neighbor?
Aloe: Yes.
Petitioner: Yes.
Mr. Trotter: Just lately after this stuff, but from all the other stuff no.
Aloe: And how long have you lived in this house?
Petitioner: 1980 or ’81.
Mr. Trotter: It’s our first home - still in it.
Aloe: Okay. Thank you.
Henzi: Anyone else? Mr. Harb.
Harb: Mr. Trotter, that stake that you put in - I know you had it professionally surveyed
and you said that you had the fence, the split rail four or five, six inches on your side of
the fence. Where was the stake? Was it on his side of the split rail or your side of the
split rail?
Mr. Trotter: His side.
Harb: So, are you just doing that for what – just to piss him off?
Mr. Trotter: No, to show him that don’t, don’t chop my fence down, you know. I paid a
lot of money for this fence and it’s just – and the weed wacker will eat it so here’s the
mark kind of stay away from it, you know. So, that’s basically --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 37 January 18, 2011
Harb: Somebody’s got to run a lawn mower around there. So, basically no one can run
a lawn mover around your four inches?
Mr. Trotter: No, not when –
Harb: I mean, are you expecting him to do your four inches or what. You want him to
cut the grass, but you don’t want him to weed wack.
Mr. Trotter: No, no, actually when you cut the grass with the weed wacker, you don’t
dig dirt and that’s basically what was happening, you know, full blast, down on the
ground, you know.
Harb: That would ruin the weed wacker.
Mr. Trotter: It does chop the wood apart.
Harb: Was he chopping the stakes?
Mr. Trotter: No, the wood, the split-rail fence.
Petitioner: The posts --
Harb: The posts –
Petitioner: -- in the grass.
Harb: So, you have one – where do you have it, the third or fourth or where do you
have the stake?
Petitioner: From the bushes, it must be --
Mr. Trotter: No, in from the street almost by the second post.
Harb: Second post?
Mr. Trotter: Yeah, in the middle there.
Harb: Those eight foot sections?
Mr. Trotter: Sections, no they’re actually – they came out, I think, 11 feet.
Harb: Eleven feet?
Mr. Trotter: Yeah.
Harb: Are you sure it’s only 40 feet that –
Petitioner: Yes.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 37 January 18, 2011
Mr. Trotter: No, you should have 44.
Harb: That’s what I thought. Thank you.
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: Just to finish on that. Who is the operator of this weed wacker?
Mr. Trotter: Oh, one of his friends.
Moran: A lawn service?
Mr. Trotter: A lawn service, yeah. It’s a friend of his.
Moran: Would the logical thing be to talk to the operator of the lawn service and say –
Mr. Trotter: I have. I have.
Moran: And your response was?
Mr. Trotter: It just happens anyway. I mean it’s whatever he tells him to do, do it.
Moran: Let me see if I can summarize where I think we are on this. We’ve got an issue
with the fence in the backyard that Mr. Pastor has indicated perhaps and you have said
perhaps you could cut down a section from seven feet to six point -, six and a third feet,
six feet four inches.
Petitioner: Uh-huh.
Moran: And you’d be in compliance with that. That would still leave the problem of a
portion of this is coming into the side yard? John.
Podina: I’m sorry?
Moran: A portion of this fence is still coming into the side yard even if it was the right
height. How much of that is – how many feet is that enchroaching into the side yard?
Podina: I didn’t measure it myself.
Moran: I mean, do you think it’s 20 feet, six feet, an educated guess?
Podina: I’d say 10 to 15.
Moran: Okay. So, we have the issue in the side yard. We have the issue of the good
side versus the – meaning which side the posts are on and the posts are on the south
side of it. You have the side without posts; correct?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 37 January 18, 2011
Petitioner: Correct.
Moran: And those are all the issues with this fence? And then we have the split rail and
Mike, what is Section 15.44. 090(H) say, that supposedly the section violation.
Fisher: Well, 15.44.090 is generally the residential rules --
Moran: It’s interesting to me that the Petitioner stated in her application tonight that she
quotes: “a permit is not required for decorative split-rail fence used as landscape
treatment or hedge providing its sole purpose is ornamental effect and that it is a
erected or planted as the case may be.”
Fisher: Well, here’s what it says: “landscape treatments not to exceed 30 inches in
height shall be permitted…”so I think we probably have a violation there, too, that hasn’t
been mentioned in the notice.
Moran: That’s where I was going.
Fisher: “…shall be permitted within a front yard or within a side or rear yard abutting a
street provided it does not exceed 40 feet in total length, 20 feet in one continuous
direction.” The idea being that this would be a corner. If you were going to have 40 feet
it would be 20 feet on one half of the yard and 20 feet on the other, or just a straight 20
feet. “No fence or landscape treatment shall be located nearer than two feet from the
side lot line adjacent to a driveway on an abutting property…” which I think is also a
problem here, but I don’t --
Moran: Say that again please, Mike.
Fisher: “No fence or landscape treatment shall be located nearer than two feet from a
side lot line which is adjacent to a driveway on an abutting property.” Now, I admit it’s
not – the technical violation of that maybe it’s not as serious since that driveway is not
that close.
Moran: Yeah, it’s on the lot line. I guess the idea is the decorative thing is supposed to
be within – is supposed to be two feet off the lot line, but then it references the driveway
and the picture appears that the driveway is the neighbor’s more than two feet off --
Fisher: Actually the concern there is that in places where your houses are closer
together that you might not be able to open your car door.
Moran: Right.
Fisher: So, that’s not a problem here. So, that’s why that wasn’t identified –
Moran: That might not be -- but I find it troubling that your application conveniently
doesn’t mention that this thing is not supposed to be longer than 20 feet, nor does it
have a height restriction.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 37 January 18, 2011
Petitioner: And I wasn’t – like I said when I called ordinance they told me and they gave
me the number, the ordinance number and I looked it up and I was reading and I just
understood it that there was no permit and I didn’t see any length requirements. The
only –
Moran: Frankly, Mrs. Trotter, I don’t know how you can miss what Mr. Fisher just read.
Petitioner: I have – it was under 15.44.060 was what I was told to look up when I called.
Moran: And when did you make this call?
Petitioner: It was May, it was May 3rd.
Moran: Prior to erection?
Petitioner: Yes. It was May 3rd.
Moran: I’m just going to state I always find it troubling when someone makes
statements that are not complete. I find it misleading, but let me ask you a couple other
questions here. What is the status of the permits now?
Podina: There is no – they’ve applied for the zoning compliance.
Moran: Okay.
Podina: From the zoning –
Moran: That puts a stay on a need for a permit.
Podina: Yes.
Petitioner: I applied for the permit for the split rail and then that’s when the length came
up and I said when I was there at the office, I was not told about it. Randy at the front
desk said –
Moran: Do you think – let me stop you there for a moment. Do you think that – you’ve
mentioned that twice now. Do you think the reason Randy didn’t mention that is –has
he visited your property?
Petitioner: No, he pulled the file when I showed him the notice because I said I’d like to
correct my notices, please, and if he could help me.
Moran: Is the timeline such that apparently your neighbor complained about your split
rail, you came in to see Randy, he addressed the split rail with you, didn’t address the
remainder of your property. At some point, someone visited the property, at some
future point, noticed that there was another violation and that’s when you were cited for
that?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 37 January 18, 2011
Petitioner: No, I was told when on the permit for the split rail in the additional comments
it had mentioned that. So, then I called Jerome, I said, I’m sorry, I would have applied
for the permit for the privacy fence at the same time like I did for the split rail. I’m sorry
and I’m trying to correct it. He says – I said it wasn’t on the original notice of violation.
I’m sorry. I wish it was. Could you explain or did I miss a violation. And he said, no, I
don’t know why it wasn’t mentioned on that. But, you know, he said the next step is to
go to the variance and I said, okay. So, he gave me the variance.
Moran: Okay. But how would you have corrected it. You said had it been on there you
would have corrected it. How would you have corrected it?
Petitioner: I applied for – the additional comments said to apply for additional permit for
the –
Moran: But you do realize that you – that would have been rejected because your plan
doesn’t meet the ordinance and you would have ended up here.
Petitioner Right, and I – but, you know, I want to get a permit, but I just want to get this
all taken care of so that it’s recorded and future homeowners in both properties, you
know, any future homeowners it doesn’t cause any problem either.
Moran: We have in our packet apparently a – in several documents notes from the
Inspection Department and they are very extensive about the number of visits to the
property. John, can you offer why there are so many visits necessitated for these
violations?
Podina: Well, it looks to me as if Mr. Banko was there August 24th and wrote up the
initial violation and he was back twice in September, twice in October and then finally
December there was no progress being made so we issued a show cause. They did
not show up for the show cause and then evidently after in the middle of December Mr.
Banko and Mr. Hanna visited the house and discussed things with the wife and there
was not many notes on what actually took place at the meeting, but they required her to
come in and apply for a ZBA. But nothing was done from the end of August all the way
through the middle of December.
Petitioner: Well, no, I got the notice in August and I went into the hospital on September
lst and I was off on leave until October 15th, but I was feeling better. I came into the
Zoning Board. I called him, I said I was in the hospital if I could I wait until I felt better.
Mr. Trotter: I came in and talked to the Zoning Board and they said, don’t worry about
it. We’ll give you more time.
Petitioner: So then I did apply on October, I think it was – nobody came out to my
house and talked to me, but I did come in on October 10th or 15th and showed them the
notice of violation and that’s when I spoke to the person at the counter and they told me
to fill it out. So, I took it home and the next day I came back and filed for my permit for
the split rail and then on the notice or the show cause hearing, so I was in contact in
October 10th two days before I came back from leave from the doctor. While working on
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 37 January 18, 2011
this I had surgery and so, it wasn’t until December, but I did – the notice of violation I did
not know I had to appear because I had spoken to Karen and she said that we can
have a meeting with Jerome and I met with Jerome and I just thought – he gave me the
variance papers and so I was working on the variance papers and then I said, oh, I
didn’t know that I had to still show – they were nice enough to reschedule for Thursday,
December 16th for the show cause. So, I did appear there.
Moran: Mr. Caramagno, I can’t reconcile between these. Was Petitioner cooperative or
uncooperative in getting –
Podina: I haven’t – there were a lot of inspectors, but it looks to me like there hasn’t
been any cooperation involved. I mean the show cause wasn’t set up until October. It
was set up for December 2nd and there was a no show.
Petitioner: And I immediately called on December 3rd and spoke to Karen, who is the
secretary of Alex Bishop, and she said, you needed to set up – I didn’t know I had to
meet there because I had met with Jerome and I was working on the variance. So, we
– I said I can come back in and she said, Thursday, December 16th and I immediately
came in on that day.
Podina: I’m not showing any documentation on that at all.
Moran: I need to relinquish the floor here.
Petitioner: I had two meetings with –
Moran: I’m ready to look for a solution.
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: I’ve got a few questions for you. I didn’t come walking in your yard or
your neighbor’s yard and I really can’t see. What do you have fencing on other parts of
your yard? Let’s start with the north side. What’s on the north side of your property?
Petitioner: Our neighbor’s fence.
Caramagno: Your neighbor has a fence that runs where?
Petitioner: From in front of – it starts in front, like the front of our house and goes, oh, I
don’t know how far back. – three quarters of the way.
Mr. Trotter: Yeah, about three quarters of the way down, almost –
Caramagno: It doesn’t go all the way to your east property line?
Petitioner: No, it does not.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 37 January 18, 2011
Caramagno: What’s on your east property line?
Petitioner: Chain link from neighbor – it was already there.
Caramagno: So along the back of your property you have chain link?
Petitioner: Correct.
Caramagno: And on your south side you have what we are looking at in these pictures
then you have the chicken wire that goes to the east?
Petitioner: Correct.
Caramagno: And that goes how far to the east?
Petitioner: It attaches from the back end of this wood fence.
Caramagno: From the wooden fence how far east, how far back does it go?
Mr. Trotter: About 250 feet.
Petitioner: Two hundred, 250.
Caramagno: Does it go back to the chain link fence?
Mr. Trotter: Yes.
Petitioner: Yes.
Caramagno: Okay. Was there ever any other fence on that property line?
Petitioner: No.
Mr. Trotter: No.
Caramagno: There never was.
Petitioner: There might have been – well no because it was around the pool
Mr. Trotter: No.
Caramagno: Okay. My next question would be, you have an in-ground pool in the yard
--
Mr. Trotter: Oh, that’s what she’s talking about. Yeah, we got a chain link going straight
across.
Caramagno: Straight across what?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 37 January 18, 2011
Petitioner: Just behind the pool on the east side of the pool there is a chain-link fence
that connects our wood privacy fence to our neighbor’s north --
Mr. Trotter: You can almost see it on the overall view. You can see the shadow of the
privacy fence and about eight feet up from that to the tree line over here you can see a
rail going across. Then I got a double gate to open up the back, to the back of the yard.
Caramagno: So, your pool area is fenced in?
Mr. Trotter: Yes.
Petitioner: Correct.
Caramagno: And that runs from the wooden fence on one side?
Petitioner: Yes, to the north side.
Caramagno: To the wooden fence on the north side?
Mr. Trotter: Yes, correct.
Caramagno: So you got a chain link in there, too?
Petitioner: Yes.
Caramagno: Did you ever consider instead of a property line fence line for your
backyard, did you ever consider screen – coming inside your property line building a
fence as a screen for your pool area?
Petitioner: No, never thought about that.
Caramagno: That I don’t believe you would need the neighbor’s consent for; is that
right or am I wrong there?
Moran: Ten feet inside.
Caramagno: If you build it 10 feet inside, I don’t think you need a neighbor’s consent for
that.
Petitioner: Oh, okay.
Caramagno: Have you ever considered that?
Petitioner: I never thought of it.
Mr. Trotter: No, I got a big yard and I’ve planted a lot of trees and I like – I never
thought of that, but that’s a good idea, you know, but I like park view, the park look, you
know, with the trees and stuff and, you know.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 37 January 18, 2011
Caramagno: And I buy the park look because it’s a nice big yard except for the fence,
there’s no fences in parks.
Mr. Trotter: Yeah, now we were going to inside this fence here like I dug it out and stuff
because we were going to plant bushes and have a little garden in there.
Caramagno: You’ve got a lot of things going on, no neighbor consent, too tall, good
side facing one not the other. I’m struggling with this right now myself, but I’m willing to
listen to some more comments and questions.
Henzi: I wanted to ask about the decorative split-rail fence. It is 40 feet in length – why
did you make it 40 feet in length? Why not 30 or 20 or 50?
Petitioner: It was based on that area we just liked that area that it just kind of – we have
bushes that are there that you can see. There are bushes toward the back and as you
can see we put --
Mr. Trotter: And there are bushes up in the front.
Petitioner: -- yeah, we put the two bushes on each side of the driveway.
Mr. Trotter: And I kind of wanted to reach the bushes. I was kind of hoping that it would
go down in a slope. I don’t even need that down slope, but I like it the way others look
and I kind of wanted that going at the bushes, but when the rails came up 11 feet in
length, you know, and then the way they tongue and groove inside each other, you
know, you’ve got to slide them in to get them on the pole. I didn’t – I was thinking I
could cut them 10 feet and then try and cut a groove – it would just create more work.
So, I stuck with the 11 feet.
Henzi: I guess I’m starting from the opposite way. Why did you take that so far towards
the street, I mean, were you aiming to make it even with the front of his house or a tree
or something like that?
Mr. Trotter: The bushes.
Petitioner: The two bushes on each side of the driveway.
Henzi: Oh, okay, I got you.
Mr. Trotter: And that’s where the down slope – like I said was supposed to be at, but it
went a little farther because of the 11 feet, usually, you know, fences are 10 feet or eight
feet.
Henzi: Any other questions? Oh, you know, I did have one more. There was some talk
about how the dispute arose because you weren’t happy that his lawn service nicking
up your fence. Was it your expectation that you were going to service both sides of that
fence?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 37 January 18, 2011
Mr. Trotter: I would have, yeah, yeah, because the rails are up off the ground. I was,
you know, you just cut the grass. Now it’s just dead dirt, dead dirt and then I saw it
happen to my – it’s not really a chicken wire – everybody’s calling it chicken wire. In the
back they ripped all the strands out of the bottom and that I was hoping, you know,
when I do take it down I could roll it back up and still save that. But by hitting that and
just trying to get underneath that, it’s just all the wires are just ripped, they’re pulled to
one way.
Henzi: Okay, any other questions? Hearing none is there anyone in the audience who
wants to speak for or against this project; if so, come up to the podium. Mr. and Mrs.
Trotter, you can have a seat and then I will call you back to make a final statement.
Henzi: Good evening.
Davis: My name is Todd Davis, 15900 Hubbard, Livonia, MI 48154. Good evening to
the Board. I don’t know where to jump in on all this. It’s a lot and I live there.
Henzi: Well, tell us why you object to the two fences.
Davis: First of all, let’s start with the chicken wire fence. I had to make a call yesterday
because according to the appeal notice that I got, the public notice, it said it was a four
foot fence. So I called yesterday and I talked to Jerry and let him know that it was a
three foot fence. Mr. Trotter noted that today that it was a three foot fence. I have four
grandchildren under the ages of four - two children, two and a half and just shy of four
years old. All six of those kids are under 40 inches tall. I even measured two of my kids
before I left the house tonight. They thought it was funny – 34 and 38 inches. Again,
the posts that you drive in with a sledge hammer or post hammer are on my side. It’s
just, it’s just a dangerous, dangerous – oh, I’m sorry. I did print up six, lucky six; six of
you are here tonight. These are easy pictures to follow. I’m sorry I didn’t start off with
that.
Henzi: Thank you, but you know, the wire fence, let’s move beyond because they said
that they’re going to remove it and this Board can always condition that or order that to
happen.
Davis: Okay and that’s fine. That relieves a safety issue. That’s been my biggest thing
since it was put up. I’ve discussed that with Mr. Trotter, he knows I have kids. I’ve had
kids living in that house for 20 years. The house has been in my family for almost 40
years. I guess we’ll start with that one. So, that one is going to be removed. So, I
guess we can stop there. The pictures that are paper clipped together start from the
front of my house, they work to the back. So, I was kind of prepared to start at the split
rail and work my way back to the east.
Henzi: Okay.
Davis: If I can do that.
Henzi: Sure.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 37 January 18, 2011
Davis: The split-rail fence – let’s start off with the stake. An actual survey stake when a
survey company comes out is never sticking out of the ground two, three, four, five, six
inches out of the ground. It’s also not a hunk of rebar that you can go buy at Home
Depot. When I called the police, I called the police and said I have a safety thing.
Again, with my kids, I’m not going to watch one of my kids trip and fall and impale their
eye socket or their temple or their ear. Kids trip, they fall and all I wanted – I wasn’t
making a big stink about the spit-rail fence at first and it became just out of control.
When the police officer came out, he told me remove the stake. I removed the stake.
Okay. I handed it to him. Mr. Trotter came over, okay, and that’s how the stake issue –
it was not a survey stake, it was a hunk of rebar that Mr. Trotter put there and whether
you put your fence four inches back or not let’s remember one thing here in Livonia and
I’m born and raised here. Okay. Permit – no permit number one. Okay, shame on me.
No permit number two, I guess you’re not looking at the right, you know, things to see
what you do. No permits on three fences? Okay. I did address this issue years ago
about are you done with the fence? Am I getting a good side? I put a lot of money into
this. The fence that I put up with my other neighbor, I pulled a permit. I got my
neighbor to sign a piece of paper saying I can have the good side. Okay. I did it the
way you’re supposed. Everything at my house has been done with a permit. Okay.
I’ve been in front of the Zoning Board years ago. I have pulled every permit and
watched inspectors come and go through the City. Steven Banko, he is very aware of
what’s been going on with this whole situation. So, starting with the pictures, the split-
rail fence that was the survey issue with the survey stake. That’s why the police were
called.
Henzi: But tells us, do you want – do you object to the split rail?
Davis: Yes, I am objecting because also when a comment was made by one of the
Board members here, that driveway has been there forever and me opening my door
now, if I have company come over and park on my driveway when it tails off at the end,
the door is going to hit if you open it. You can’t fully open your door for starters.
Second of all, it is not 44 feet long. It’s not 40 feet long. It’s not 50 feet long. By the
time you start at post one that goes right into the bushes and get to the boulder with the
two dove tail post rails that just dove tail into the ground and then the boulder that was
put there, you’re stopping within x amount of inches of Hubbard Road. So today I went
out. Those are fresh pictures today. It is 55 to 60 feet. I can’t see the boulder. It’s got
snow on it. So, when I say 55 to 60 feet, I’m being very gracious with that
measurement. It has been nothing but a problem with this fence and seriously, my
father owned a lawn service here in Livonia for many, many years. We cord, even the
thickest millimeter cord you can possibly use at a hundred and some millimeter is never
going to be chopping down cedar post, pressured treated post. It’s not happening. I
could sit there and go through spool after spool after spool and I’d be there forever
trying to chop down a post. I have the landscaper that does it is my neighbor the other
side of Mr. Trotter that’s the north neighbor of Mr. Trotter, that’s his grandson. He’s the
easiest going kid. If you came up to him and said something whether he’s cutting my
grass and getting paid for it or not, he’s not going to balk at that and he’s going to stop.
That’s never been addressed to me and again millimeter weed cord is not going to chop
down any post or damage it and I’m not trying to damage it. I wasn’t trying to damage it
and again you asked the question, one of the Board members did. Did you expect Mr.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 37 January 18, 2011
Davis to cut the grass and not trim it, or were you going to do this? Okay. So, you
know, that’s the problem. No permit. Not talking to me like I don’t exist, like I’m just
going to go about my business and throw it up. And if you look at my permits, 2006, my
ground broke ground back in 2001, I believe. I didn’t come here – I really some of this
information I wasn’t even – I wasn’t planning on talking about police, this and that. I
have bigger fish to fry than everyday going through all this stuff seriously.
Henzi: Okay. Have you said everything that you don’t like about the split-rail fence?
Davis: I’m done with the split-rail fence.
Henzi: Okay. Your next picture shows –
Davis: The next picture – if I’m pronouncing but John over there made a comment. I’ve
not seen John. I’ve never talked to John and I know a lot of people in inspections and I
welcome everybody to come out there. If I get this right and I asked this question
yesterday and Mr. Fisher was looking this up. I didn’t understand what side – I don’t
have my glasses on. Side –
Henzi: Side yard.
Davis: Side yard. I didn’t know what that meant. So, I asked one of the women that
called me back yesterday at 2:15 in Zoning. She read this off to me and was talking to
me and she didn’t even know what it was. So, now I know what that is. From the back
of his structure going back to the east with the wood fence, it’s not 15 feet, it’s not 20
feet, it is a hundred and some feet. He only has a portion that travels five to 10 feet in
front of his garage door. Then the length of his garage that’s the farthest protruding
area of his structure and from there back it’s – you’ll see the pictures. I photographed.
You know that’s more than 15 or 20 feet looking at the picture that I took today showing
the back picture going towards his house.
Henzi: Well, Mr. Fisher didn’t describe side yard that way. He said side yard is from the
rear of the home towards the street.
Davis: Oh, towards the street. Okay.
Henzi: So, the side yard violation is that portion of the fence that is parallel or, you
know, right –
Davis: I understand now.
Henzi: -- beside his house.
Davis: Okay.
Henzi: So between your two houses.
Davis: Okay.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 37 January 18, 2011
Henzi: He can have – the side yard does not include from the back of the structure all
the way to the back lot line.
Davis: Okay.
Fisher: And the back of the structure - because this looks like an attached garage - the
back of the structure for this purpose is the back of the garage.
Davis: Okay. I was – I misinterpreted that. Okay. Going back now so my structure, my
ground breaking, my addition is way before 2006. years before that. Okay.
Henzi: 2001 you think?
Davis: Yeah, and that fence didn’t go up for a long time. So, I’m saying I broke ground
around 2001 roughly. It could have been, you know, give or take either way six months.
But that fence the Trotters just told you 2006. So, that’s years of living with no privacy
fence and I addressed it with Mr. Trotter saying what about the good side? Okay.
Henzi: What else do you not like about the privacy fence?
Davis: Well, also, measuring in the snow it’s not – those are inaccurate measurements
on height. On my side and now Mr. Trotter is saying that his yard goes down lower than
my side that I built up which whatever, it’s like 7 feet 2 to 7 feet 11 on my side. So, if his
steps way down obviously we are over eight feet and I was jamming my tape measure
into the snow today. What I don’t like is I spent a lot of money on my house and did
everything the right way and the ordinance is I have the option on good side or bad
side. If I say, oh, that’s fine. Go ahead put the fence up, you guys look at the good
side. That’s fine. But you don’t just put a fence up without a permit and give your
neighbor the bad side and act like okay that’s the end of that.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: So, let me ask you the same question. What’s changed six years later you
complain?
Davis: Uh, fence two and three.
Pastor: Tell me about fence one because of fence two and three.
Davis: Right. Actually, to be honest with you I really didn’t make a strong complaint to
Mr. Banko. What I said was, in the sake of coming home and enjoying my house, it’s
not a huge issue. I want the fence to stay. I want the wood fence to stay. I do not want
to open this up, but --
Pastor: So, now you’re saying that you want the wood fence to stay.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 37 January 18, 2011
Davis: I never made a complaint to remove the fence. I said there’s never been a
permit pulled and I have the bad side. That’s what I said. I didn’t say yank it down. I
said, in fact, I said that side did not go through the proper channels. They did not pull a
permit. I was never offered the good side. When I commented on it, I was basically told
that’s the end of that fence. That’s the way it stays. So, the wood fence I would – first
of all, there’s approximately 180 slats that go on a fence, his fence, 180 boards. Okay.
I would like to know when the chicken wire comes down and the dogs and by the way, I
gave them one of those dogs. I’m a dog lover. I love dogs. All I said was, could you
watch. I got young kids. The dog came in the yard and pooped. I’ll clean it up. No big
deal, but I have children, can you just keep an eye on the dog. That’s when the chicken
wire fence went up. So, I called this summer because of that. Chicken wire safety
issue that’s coming out. We’re done with that. The front fence, I don’t like it. I can’t –
oh, and by the way, after that was put in he came out one night and took a can of spray
paint, spray painted on my side of the fence. So he’s talking about four inches and right
before my driveway, painted my driveway. Okay. Police came out. I didn’t think I was
supposed to talk about police and this and that with you guys tonight. So, I didn’t bring
the permit number, a police report number of malicious destruction of private property.
Okay. So being that said with all of that –
Henzi: I think we’re clear there is a dispute. There’s no doubt.
Davis: There’s no doubt.
Henzi: But if you could answer Mr. Pastor, he’s asking you what do you want us to do
with the fence?
Davis: I don’t want the fence there because first of all –
Henzi: Let me be clear. He’s asking about the privacy fence.
Davis: Either give me a good side or take it down. That was never offered to me ever.
Pastor: Let me ask you another question. On the split rail and I know we have already
gone by that, I’m looking at your picture of the split rail, it looks like it’s three or four feet
from your driveway. You can’t open the door?
Davis: It’s not four feet.
Pastor: Well, it looks like it.
Davis: Not near Hubbard Road, it tails in, tails --
Pastor: No, you’re driveway tails offs -- your widening opens up there. The fence
doesn’t move over to your driveway, the driveway moves over to the fence.
Davis: The driveway didn’t grow legs in 20 years and move and the property line –
Pastor: Driveways don’t move over. The driveway opening lines up at the end --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 37 January 18, 2011
Davis: Not like going two, three feet in each direction and also the - this engineered
survey in this and that, I came and picked up the exact measurements of everybody’s
lot line and just really quick stepped it off from the corner of Myrna to the Puritan and
looked at everybody’s property line to see exactly where they all fell - everybody’s fell
on a telephone pole or a chain-link fence except for the split-rail fence. So, all these
numbered can’t keep lining up from Myrna, this lot line, this lot line, this lot line and
when it gets to mine – that’s why I’m telling you now you’re asking me a question now
I’ll tell you further how does it change when it gets to my house? How did it move south
– the fence. When I get to his fence, this is where it lined up. Here’s his fence and now
we’re in my yard. How did it all change from five different houses? Everything else
lined up. I walked up to telephone poles. I seen engineered surveys from years ago
and everything lined up but that one. But besides the point, its 60 feet long, it’s got a
boulder inches or feet from Hubbard Road and it didn’t have a permit pulled for it. We
never discussed it. It’s out of the – it’s well exceeding the ordinance for a decorative
fence for a front yard.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Mr. Davis, can this be resolved tonight with some
modifications?
Davis: Yeah. I still think that the remaining 250 feet going from the wood fence back to
– if you see my arborvitae, then you’ll see there’s no respect for my yard. Hey, if you
want to chop my tree down a little bit and put a fence up? Come over and say, hey, do
you mind if I trim it up, I’d like to walk my dog.
Caramagno: To resolve this, if you got a good side on the wooden corral – on the
wooden privacy fence, if you got a good side, if this corral or whatever – if this split-rail
was shortened up allowing you to open your door, could this issue be resolved tonight?
Davis: I have one question. What is the permit – would a permit be granted to continue
that fence to the back of the chain-link fence on the east side 250 feet? Can a permit
be granted going between rural lots of almost an acre all the way down with the fence
that’s in question right now.
Fisher: Well, your fence is in question right now. It’s too tall. Other than that, assuming
you both consent and you get a good side and it’s figured out and so forth, there isn’t
any reason it couldn’t be.
Davis: Maybe something to think about. Don’t give me a good side 180 planks plus
roughly – I counted them real quick at Home Depot is x amount of dollars and now you
have to install them, blah, blah, blah, and you’re giving that to me which instead you
could take that money, I think it would be better for both families. I have kids you have
dogs. Okay. So, we have 250 feet to go with x amount of sections. Twenty-five
sections of fence at Home Depot versus coming to pay somebody because obviously
we don’t get along so you can’t come to my house and work in my yard. So, forget my
good side maybe we could just continue the 250 shorten up the split-rail and I think our
families would co-exist nicely.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 37 January 18, 2011
Caramagno: Are you saying finish the fence to the east?
Davis: Uh-huh.
Caramagno: Forget about the good side done deal?
Davis: Yes.
Caramagno: Thanks.
Henzi: Thank you.
Davis: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? Thank you very much. Is there anybody else that wants
to speak on this topic? I see no one else coming forward. Are there letters?
Carmagno: Robert Bennet, 32210 Myrna (approval letter was read). A. Blusma, 15776
Hubbard (approval letter was read). Richard Chippa, 15915 Hubbard (approval letter
was read). William Galvan 15645 Hubbard (approval letter was read). Bea Heaman,
15629 Hubbard (objection letter was read).
Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Trotter, can you come back up to the podium please. You have an
opportunity to make a closing statement and perhaps you’d like to address the offer of
compromise.
Petitioner: On the compromise – well, first of all, thank you for listening to our variance
request. With regard to the split-rail he indicates that he can’t open the doors and I say
that is incorrect because we also use our driveway and we don’t see any problem. We
think the split-rail is nice –
Mr. Trotter: Decorative.
Petitioner: -- decorative. We could shorten it up from the front from where it starts at
Hubbard.
Mr. Trotter: We could take down those down pieces.
Petitioner: If that is correct to get it to, you know, a closer thing on that.
Henzi: What about his claim that this is more like 55 or 60 feet and frankly, as I look at
the survey plat, if sure looks longer to 44 feet to me. So when you say shorten, are you
talking shorten so that it’s what the ordinance requires or are you suggesting that you
shorten it to 30 feet or something like that?
Mr. Trotter: Take down the down spouts – the down rails.
Petitioner: To help out on that.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 37 January 18, 2011
Henzi: Okay.
Mr. Trotter: It is 11 feet.
Petitioner: The poles.
Mr. Trotter: The rails. So, and then I’ve got four posts.
Henzi: Okay. Go ahead, keep going.
Petitioner: And then on the wooden fence or as they had asked – or he had asked
about extending the fence down to the east, unfortunately this economy is very tight the
only other thing that we could do is maybe a chain-link to do – I do like the openness.
Mr. Trotter: Yeah, We wouldn’t mind if he put a privacy fence or a chain-link fence
down to the rest of the property line. That would be fine. If he wants to put up a privacy
fence and put the bad side towards me, that would be fine, too. I would agree to that
because right now on my other side I got two different sides from my other neighbor.
So, it doesn’t really bother me. On a privacy fence good side, bad side that doesn’t
bother me either having, you know, but –
Petitioner: But to divide the properties a chain-link or something like that, you know,
wood is very expensive and --
Henzi: You would or would not give him the good side.
Petitioner: On the privacy fence right now?
Henzi: Yes.
Mr. Trotter: Well, right now I’d just rather leave it the way it is because it’s been up for
five years and there really hasn’t been any complaints until now. I think what he wants
because he’s saying he has kids and does want me to pay for an additional fence. He
wants to keep the kids in and that’s quite expensive. So, I would have no objection to
him if he wants to build a fence, a privacy fence and he could put it up in any way he
wants. No objection.
Henzi: Okay. Anything else; any questions? Hearing none I will close the public
portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Well, I think when you have neighbor problems and you have fences between
you, you have to reach a compromise. I don’t think it’s fair for this Board to try to make
everything that the Petitioner did wrong right and that’s what they are asking us to do
and infringe on the neighbor’s rights in doing that. What I would like to see happen – I
can’t approve this the way it is, I’ll just say that. I think that this should be tabled and I
think that you should come together knowing that this problem exists between you and
really consider, you know, putting a privacy fence between you whether you split it, you
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 37 January 18, 2011
pay for it, or whatever, but I am not going to approve this and take away someone else’s
rights and there is a major problem here. So, that would be my suggestion.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno:
Caramagno: Well, you’re close here, real close to getting this deal done, but I don’t
think you’re quite there either. The front fence taking the angles off to me would be
good and I’d even like to see that last portion that last 10, 11 feet angled in to the north
some more. Give him the room he wants, it’s not going to hurt anything. I think the
backyard fence is doable and I think if it’s not, you’re going to wind up potentially having
to dismantle what you’ve got there give him the good side of what’s left, if he will agree
to it. You’re in the bad spot right now I think, but I think it’s plenty fixable at this point.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: Well, I’m kind of along the lines of what Toni and Sam just said. When you
have two parties that can’t agree, I don’t think this Board can dictate how a variance
should be done. I think this is a time when we go back to the ordinance and we say,
this is our guideline. Comply. I think it’s a shame that you’re at this point. You’ve
existed with this fence number two – or number one for a long time. The chicken wire
fence number two as it is referred is going to come down. It’s not an issue. And the
front fence I believe it to be decorative and maybe a little bit excessive, but to my way of
thinking that’s really the only issue here tonight. But given if the neighbors can’t agree,
what I would suggest is denying this request. I would deny in part and approve in part
and what I would approve is the portion of the decorative fence and I would make sure
that permits were pulled. I would say that the existing height would be acceptable and I
would say that it could go maybe 25 feet some minimal excess of our current ordinance
or something logical like that. I’ve listened to two both sides tonight and I would say
both of you folks I think you’re reaching to make certain points and it’s just because you
don’t want to get along. I think that this thing in the side yard could be fence number
one could be fixed but again I’d say deny in part and approve in part with respect to
front yard fence.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: Yes, I’ll prefer to table this like Toni. I will tell you this though as far as the front
yard decorative fence I’m okay with 40 ft., 44 ft. I would feel better if it was, you know, if
one section was removed and perhaps angled down. I’m okay with a seven foot fence
in the rear and I really think that the small area that’s on the side area here that is okay
as well. So to discuss the question the right side being what the neighbor wants I think
that’s only fair. I would also say that I feel we should have – I don’t think it’s in our
abilities or whatever to say that they must add another 200 feet or 150 feet of fencing. If
they want to leave it open, they have that right or to take it down and not put anything
up. I don’t think we should dictate that they must, you know, put the good side up.
They can just take it down and the heck with it. That’s their right. So, I just think they
both could have issues and it’s not just one sided.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 37 January 18, 2011
Pastor: Well, I guess I probably agree with the table motion. I am not comfortable with
a seven foot fence. There’s no way that a seven foot tall fence should be on a
residential piece of property. So, I would ask for the top of that fence to be cut off as the
rest of the fence is 6’4. The split-rail fence looks pretty good but what I would suggest
as Ken would say, is take one full section out, not the end section but the section before
that and then angle it down so you’d be 11 feet shorter as the Petitioner mentioned they
were eleven foot sections. So, you’d have 30 feet plus the downspouts if that’s what
this is. The neighbor’s offer to – he wants them to pay for a continuation. I think they
need to talk about that amongst themselves, come to a realistic agreement and work on
it that way because if there’s not some kind of agreement you have to address the other
fence and most likely it’s going to come down or be turned around. So, I would be in
favor of tabling the motion.
Henzi: I’ll start with the decorative split rail. I think it’s an attractive fence and I sense a
need for having it because the front yard set backs to these two adjoining houses are
very different. The Petitioner’s home is set further back from their adjoining neighbor.
However, there is a large shrub and then there is 44 feet of fence plus the angle
downwards so this fence is at least – well, I shouldn’t say at least probably around 50
feet. I guess to get the votes I’d go along with removing one section - I’d really rather
see two. In terms of a privacy fence, you know, I think that the proposed compromise
was something that the adjoining landowner offered because he’s stuck with the bad
side. The problem is, if this fence was erected in 2006 and there weren’t any
complaints, I mean, I can’t imagine that these posts were that detrimental to his way of
life. But the height, I heard zero explanation for why the height should be seven feet. I
understand the need for a fence because, you know, the Petitioner said that there was
an addition and they don’t want to have to look into somebody’s side entry garage. I
don’t blame them, but I didn’t hear any valid explanation for why it should be seven feet.
So, it sounds to me from the Board members that it’s either table or deny. We can table
and then they could come back I guess.
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: Before we table are we allowed to make sure that the wired fence in the back is
removed virtually immediately or --
Pastor: They said they couldn’t because the poles in the ground.
Henzi: I don’t know if we even have to, I mean, wouldn’t the Inspection Department,
John, do that?
Podina: Yes, they probably would give them a little time on it. I don’t know if they want
to rip it out now because it’s frozen in the ground.
Moran: But you wouldn’t want the tabling resolution to stay that.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 37 January 18, 2011
Henzi: Right.
Moran: And I would also suggest put a very short time period on this tabling resolution.
Henzi: I see.
Harb: We don’t want it to last for a couple of years or longer.
Fisher: He doesn’t need a woven wire fence. The Petitioners have already withdrawn
that from the petition. So, that’s not stayed any more. So, that could be handled
separately with Inspection from the rest of this.
Moran: I didn’t realize. They discussed it this evening, but it’s in the public notice so I
didn’t realize it was actually withdrawn as part of the request this evening.
Fisher: No, they said they had written it in their letter that they were going to take it
down and they reaffirmed this evening that that wasn’t part of the petition as far as they
were concerned.
Moran: Okay.
Henzi: Do you want to know dates when they can come back, you know, if you want to
put a time limit like –
Harb: I’m not –
Henzi: W ell, you said time limit.
Fisher: Do you mean like 60 days?
Henzi: Yeah, like what are you talking three meetings or –
Harb: I’m not going to make the motion.
Caramagno: I’ll offer up the tabling motion. I’ll offer the tabling motion on appeal case
2011-01-03 and give the Petitioner and their neighbor 60 days to discuss this issue and
come up some sort of an agreement and bring this back to us so we can vote and
decide on it. You heard the comments we had tonight and there are a variety of moves
we can make here. And I don’t know that you wouldn’t be happier to just decide
amongst yourselves and let us know what’s going to work.
Pastor: I support.
Upon Motion by Caramagno, support by Pastor, it was:
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-01-03: Ronald and Mary Trotter, 15910 Hubbard,
Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to maintain a 7-ft. tall wooden privacy fence, a portion
of which extends into the side yard, which is not allowed, and which was erected
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 37 January 18, 2011
without the approval of the adjoining neighbor and without a permit, and with the
posts facing the exterior of the lot of the person erecting the fence. Petitioner is
also seeking to maintain split rail fencing in the front yard, at a length of 40-ft. in a
single direction.
Fence Height Length of Front Yard Fence
Allowed: 6 ft. 4 in. Allowed: 20 ft.
Proposed: 7 ft. 0 in. Proposed/Existing: 40 ft.
Excess: 0 ft. 8 in. Excess: 20 ft.
The property is located on the east side of Hubbard (15910) between Five Mile Road
and Myrna, be tabled to allow the Petitioner to either meet with the adjoining neighbor to
come up with a better plan, or to resubmit a plan that addresses the concerns of the
Board. The Petitioners are to return within sixty (60) days. If Petitioners do not
reschedule, follow-up action will be taken.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Aloe, Harb, Henzi
NAYS: Moran
Henzi: Your request was tabled. You have 60 days within which to come back. You
don’t have to change your plan, but what I always say is to listen to what the Board
members said. You can call the Zoning Board office to reschedule and Mike, I was
going to ask you, if the Petitioners didn’t come back, will the Zoning Board Office diary
this so that 72 days, you know, we will look at this again?
Fisher: We will definitely take some action if they are not back here in 60 days.
Henzi: Okay. Thank you very much.
Petitioner: Thank you.
Motion by Moran, seconded by Caramagno, to approve the minutes of 11/30/10 and
12/14/10; Pastor abstained for 11/30/10. All were in favor.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 37 January 18, 2011
Henzi: Mike, do we have to take action on the letter?
Fisher: No, I don’t think so, that was just for your information.
Aloe: So that’s it, that’s how it’s going to be?
Fisher: Well, that case will be up next week or next meeting and you can decide
whether you want to put it off until the 22nd or whatever.
Harb: Okay. That’s right. We have Martin’s stuff. Do we want to give this back?
Fisher: Yes, better give it back.
Pastor: We’re going to have both of these cases the same night.
Henzi: I will say this so that you know. He requested to have it heard on March 22nd
and so the letter is addressed to me and Jackie asked what to do. And there was a
time sensitive issue because she had to get the notice to the paper and I suggested put
the notice in the paper and on February 1st either he shows up and we hear the case or
if he or a lawyer ask for an adjournment, then the entire Board can decide. I didn’t want
to decide that for you.
Pastor: The 22nd may not be – but I thought he requested an earlier review.
Henzi: Well, it will be up next week either it goes or we accommodate him but that’s for
next week.
Fisher: Are we going to adjourn actually?
Henzi: Yes, we are adjourned.
There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at
8:31 p.m.
___________________________
SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary
____________________________
MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman