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HomeMy WebLinkAbout03-22-11 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 85 March 22, 2011 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING HELD MARCH 22, 2011 MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman Terry Moran, Vice Chairman Sam Caramagno, Secretary Toni Aloe Ken Harb Craig Pastor Robert Sills MEMBERS ABSENT: None OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney Steven Banko, City Inspector Helen Mininni, Court Reporter The meeting was called to order at 7:01 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each Petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each Petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Five (5) Members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each Petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, Petitioners and City Departments. There were twelve (12) persons present in the audience. ______________________________________________________________________ (7:03 #1/105) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-01-03 (Tabled on January 18, 2011): Ronald and Mary Trotter, 15910 Hubbard, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to maintain a 7-ft. tall wooden privacy fence, a portion of which extends into the side yard, which is not allowed, and which was erected without the approval of the adjoining neighbor and without a permit, and with the posts facing the exterior of the lot of the person erecting the fence. Petitioner is also seeking to maintain split rail fencing City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 85 March 22, 2011 in the front yard, at a length of 40-ft. in a single direction. Fence Height Length of Front Yard Fence Allowed: 6 ft. 4 in. Allowed: 20 ft. Proposed: 7 ft. 0 in. Proposed/Existing: 40 ft. Excess: 0 ft. 8 in. Excess: 20 ft. The property is located on the east side of Hubbard (15910) between Five Mile Road and Myrna. (Motion removed from the table.) Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to report on this case? Banko: I have nothing to add at this time, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Hearing none, will the Petitioners please come up to the table? Fisher: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Fisher. Fisher: I just want to make it clear that you have in your package the report of the Engineering Department indicating that something we didn’t pick up on last time particularly, a sizeable chunk of the front fence is in the public right-a-way and must be removed. You can see that your map should show sections numbered one and two, I think though I won’t swear to it, that what’s number one here is those two rails that go into the ground, the two poles, rails that go into the ground. Sills: Was that the split rail fence, Mike, that you’re talking about? Fisher: Yes, yes. You should have it right in the front of your packet the Engineer report. Henzi: There’s a note on a post-it which states that removing the first two sections will take it into private property; should that be would remove it from – or remove it from public. Fisher: Well, it would remove it from public property. Henzi: Yes. Fisher: That’s what he was really trying to say. Henzi: Okay. Fisher: So, those two sections have got to come out. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 85 March 22, 2011 Henzi: Any questions on that point? Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Never mind. I’m okay. Henzi: Okay. Anything else? Good evening, can you introduce yourselves, please? Petitioner: Ron and Mary Trotter, 15910 Hubbard. Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Trotter, you were here once before about a fence, would you like to tell us what it is that’s different if anything about your application tonight. Petitioner: Okay. I did find a picture proving that on the privacy fence it had been up for almost 10 years. It was put in in ’02, or around ’02. I’ve got the date on the back with no complaints, you know, for about 10 years. Now, I get a complaint on it. On the split rail fence out in the front I do agree that the down rails are inside the right-a-away and my last post if you take those down rails out my last post is within, your know, three feet into the right-a-way. So I propose to move that pole back and put it back on to my private property. Henzi: Okay. There are some photographs that are attached to this application, did you submit them? Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: Can you go through and describe what we’re looking at or maybe you could generalize because in some of the photos it’s difficult for me anyways to tell which backyard we are looking at. Let me ask it this way, were most of the photographs designed to give us a bird’s eye view of what you look at in your backyard? Petitioner: Yeah, what you’d – yeah, because you mentioned it in the last meeting what’s on the other side of the fence. What are we looking at, you know, what would I see, you know, if the fence came down basically and basically that is what it is. Henzi: Well then I won’t make you go through each. Were all of them taken from the vantage point of your rear yard? Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: And I do have some from my other neighbor to the north, you know, but I don’t want to submit any of that, you know, in his area, but also, yeah, this is what we’ve been dealing with for the past 20 years from the neighbor who made the complaint on my privacy fence basically, you know, with equipment coming in and out and then his City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 85 March 22, 2011 addition. And you mentioned on his addition that it was a breezeway. It is not a breezeway. There’s no part of that being a breezeway back there because you mentioned that before, you know, what are we looking at, you know, is it his breezeway? It’s not. It’s like a family room and the first foyer has a balcony on top looking over the family room and then a back door with an archway. So, I just don’t understand how that could be, any part of that, being a breezeway. So, it is a long addition to his house. Sills: This is your neighbor to the south; right? Petitioner: Yes, the one that made the complaint. Henzi: Within our packets we have a notice that you received a notice of violation for having a bucket-lift truck in your yard. Can you tell us what you’re going to do about that? Petitioner: He complained on that. I brought in a fork lift to trim some trees. Well, the bucket lift was to trim some trees too, but it broke down and the owner of that wouldn’t get it out of my yard. Then I lost contact so I had to go through the proper channels of trying to find him. Did he abandon it? I told him the City wanted it out a year ago, you know, just to tell him to come and get it. Well, we couldn’t get a hold of him so we did send a certified letter and all that. So, I brought in a fork lift to help me pull it to the front yard. So, I got it to the front yard and since I had that fork lift there I did my own tree trimming instead of having this guy do it. So, I pushed it to the front yard and that’s where I got the complaint, you know, so I could get it hauled out. So, that’s when I got the complaint. I told the guy, the inspector, I’m not hiding it, it’s in my front yard. I want it out, you know, because I don’t like that equipment sitting there. I like my yard to look nice. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioners? Sills: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: To the Petitioner. I noticed when I was there, there was some great big ruts that -- Petitioner: That’s from moving the equipment out. Sills: That was going into where you have a gate? Petitioner: Yeah. Sills: What caused those ruts? Petitioner: The equipment, the big fork lift I had to use to get this man lift out of my backyard. I tried to do it during the winter time so I wouldn’t create any ruts or rip up my grass. It did pretty good in the back, but by the time I got it to the front, you know, we got that thaw and then it rained and then I got the complaint and they gave me five days to get it out. So I couldn’t wait until the ground froze again so that’s actually what did it, yeah. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 85 March 22, 2011 Sills: I just wondered because the rest of the property looked pretty nice. Petitioner: Yeah, I’m going to clear that up, bring some dirt in and fill it because it’s all sand around there and it sank really good. Sills: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: Mr. Trotter, is the chicken wire removed? Petitioner: No, not yet. I wanted this resolved first and then again, you know, with the ground thawing to pull the poles out, you know, waiting for a good time to do it and then I got with the tree trimming and all that. So, I just haven’t had a chance to get back there and roll it up, but that is coming down. Harb: So, you understand that the City is suggesting or telling you to move your split rail fence back about what, 17, 18 feet? Petitioner: Well, it’s the down rails and it is three feet from the post that’s into the right-of- way. Harb: Well, I’m thinking 11 feet plus another six feet or so. Petitioner: Yeah, I would move it out of the right-of-way. Harb: So, you’re going to have to probably have to move that back. Petitioner: Yeah, because I had that independently surveyed and I got my stake right there so I’d move it back to the – back beyond that point. Harb: Are you planning on keeping that stake up four inches on the south side of your split rail? Petitioner: The stake? Harb: You had a stake there last time, a metal stake. Petitioner: That’s an independent survey. I paid $750.00 for that stake to go into the ground. They put four points – well actually five because in my backyard there are two adjoining properties. Harb: I’m asking are you planning on keeping that stake in the ground? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: That’s permanent. Mrs. Trotter: It’s not above the ground. Petitioner: No, it’s below the ground. Harb: No, I saw a picture of a stake being -- Petitioner: Oh, I was trying – I put a – my neighbor keeps ripping it out and I was trying to get pictures and that’s some of the pictures that you have in there. This time I put a wood stake right where the property survey pole is, the pin that they actually put in the ground. I put that there to take pictures to show you where the right of way was and then how far the split rail fence went beyond that. And then I went – we had a problem so we went somewhere real quick and when it came back my neighbor ripped that out and threw it in my yard. So I didn’t even get a chance to, you know, I wanted to look at the viewpoint of what was going on with that split rail fence, you know, when I remove it and take it down, you know, because you want to see things in advance. You want to make sure it’s going to look good. So, no, they were never permanent those – the rebar and the -- Harb: Okay. So you would like to keep your fence height 7-ft. Petitioner: It’s not really 7-ft. There’s one area that’s seven feet. Harb: One area that’s seven feet. Petitioner: Yeah. Harb: And that’s because of -- Petitioner: His garage. Harb: The enormous footprint of your neighbor’s house. Petitioner: Yeah, his land is built up and mine is actually – the fence is down in like a little ravine. Harb: And you had this for how many years – 10 years? Petitioner: Ten years, yeah. Harb: And why did you choose this type of wooden fence and how do you maintain it? Petitioner: I bought everything individually, all the pieces, the poles because it was cheaper and it looked better than going out and buying, you know, the actual eight foot pieces, you know, and they wanted quite a bit of money for that. So, I actually hand picked each pole I put in and I wanted them close together. Harb: Now, how many feet is the six or seven foot – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: That’s only maybe at the most I’d say at the most 16 feet. I’d say at the most 16 feet. That’s it because then right at the seven foot mark it drops down. That’s where I cut it down and that -- Harb: But the total length of the wooden fence is how long? Petitioner: The what? Harb: The total length of the wooden fence is how long? Petitioner: It is 137 feet. Harb: It is 137 and you did this many years ago, but if you had to recreate a fence like that, how much would that cost if you did it yourself? Petitioner: Probably over twelve hundred dollars. Harb: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno: Caramagno: Mr. and Mrs. Trotter, I guess the last time you were here it seemed that by the end of the meeting we were getting closer to some sort of a - maybe a meeting between the two parties, have you and Davis talked at all? Petitioner: No, that won’t happen. Caramagno: So, there’s going to be no discussion and so we are no further along than we were I guess when we met a few weeks ago. Petitioner: No. Mrs. Trotter: We did make suggestions in our letter that we provided with the pictures. Petitioner: In our letter we stated that if he wants to put a good side of the fence since he’s complaining after 10 years and all the stuff we have to look over on his property with all the trucks and stuff that come in and out, trailers, and then him also doing work on trailers as you notice on the pictures, that he could actually go out and buy – and use the back of fence put up his own pickets. Caramagno: Yeah, I got you with that and in your letter that you wrote you talk about through the years all the construction and all the pictures of equipment that are there. I don’t know what this means, you’re telling me your fence has been there 10 years, you’ve been complaining about his stuff for a number of years. Now he’s complaining about your City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 85 March 22, 2011 stuff for a number of years. That’s why the suggestion here was that you talk. I know you don’t like one another, but the suggestion was maybe you talk and get something resolved here because someone’s feelings are going to get hurt here tonight and I thought it was beneficial for a conversation to happen to get this thing resolved and that’s why I mentioned that. I also mentioned a screen. Have you thought about a screen in case this thing gets denied tonight? Some sort of a gratery screen across your property to fix your ratio of not being able to see out or his property? Has there been any more thought about that? Mrs. Trotter: We had thought about it but, you know, we like the fence and we like our privacy to the backyard. Caramagno: So, you’re still really – I won’t say – I will say stuck on your plan, that’s what you want, simple as that? Petitioner: Yes. Caramagno: This or nothing. Petitioner: Basically, yes for now. Caramagno: This or nothing is kind of where you are at for now. Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: I’m sorry if I’m not – this is an important issue and I’m sorry if I’m not up to speed with the rest of the group, but pretty much resolve that the front yard split rail is going to be how long when you take it out of the public right-a-way, how long will it be? Petitioner: That would probably be about 33, I think, 33 feet. Moran: And Mike or Steve, they’re entitled to what under the law – I mean under the ordinance a certain height than 20 feet? Banko: 30 inches in height and 20 feet in one direction. Moran: And we’re going to be at 33. Okay. That’s your request at this time with respect to the split rail fence? Petitioner: Yes. I put that in -- Moran: And in the backyard we’ve got the side yard issue, we’ve got the height of the fence going east and west, the side yard which goes north and south is also seven feet; is that right? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: Oh, by the garage. No, that’s – how tall is that coming up? Moran: Yes. Petitioner: No, that starts at six feet. Moran: At six feet. Petitioner: Yes. Moran: Okay. Then the fence that goes east and west along your property line is seven feet; is that correct? Petitioner: At the down I got – it goes – it starts at six feet ends up being at seven feet and then it goes down a little bit, you know, I got it back down to six feet and then it goes back out again. And then I got about an eight foot section right at the end that’s eight feet because the ground is, you know, it’s just going down hill from there. Moran: Okay. I just found something in our package I think that describes it. And I think it indicates a portion of it is 6-ft. 5 inches then at some point it goes to seven feet. Petitioner: Yeah, yeah. Moran: That point, I don’t know where that is relative – where is that relative to your neighbor’s home? Is that at the alleged breezeway or further back where it becomes seven feet? Petitioner: No, the seven feet would be up by his garage. Moran: Okay. Petitioner: Just about his garage door because if you’re in my backyard and you come off, you go on to my deck the lower part, you’ll see about a foot of his garage door across the top of that evenly. Moran: And then -- Petitioner: And then that kind of hides the view of who’s ever in that garage and, you know us also. Moran: Okay. And then your request is that that fence will go – where will that end relative to his home? Petitioner: It goes back to his basketball court. Moran: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: And then that eight foot that section, again, if you’re on my deck in the back and you’re standing on it you look out its ends so when they had all these people playing basketball back there all these kids and stuff it kind of boxed them out. You won’t see them. And then that’s where it ends. Moran: And then that’s the end of your request because beyond that is the chicken wire - - Petitioner: Yeah, and that was -- Moran: And that’s agreed to come out. Petitioner: The chicken wire was there because he complained about my dog being on his property. Moran: Just to articulate your request this evening, the last question I have is all of this fence that’s going east and west has the good side facing you and other side facing your neighbor? Petitioner: Yeah. Moran: And what about the fence going north and south and the portion of which is in your side yard? Petitioner: North and south, you mean on the other side? Moran: Part of it runs parallel to your home. Petitioner: That would be on the north side of my house. Yes, see there is no – my garage is there if you’re talking about -- Moran: I’m sorry. I actually thought there was fencing on the south side. Harb: That was on his neighbor’s property. Moran: Okay. So, that’s not an issue. Where is the fence that’s in the side yard that’s all – oh, I see, it’s coming too far forward. Petitioner: Oh, that picture you’re probably looking at that’s actually my neighbor to the north. That would be his fence coming up to the front – yeah, the side yard come up maybe about five feet past my garage. Moran: All right. Thank you very much. Henzi: Any other questions? Petitioner: But that side, the side yard there, you really can’t see it when my truck is there because bushes are hiding that in the front and Todd Davis’s gates are way up in the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 85 March 22, 2011 front. They’re actually past my front porch. So, he’s got a double gate there blocking his backyard so his stuff exceeds my front yard and my other neighbor’s fence is also exceeding my front yard because I set back so. Moran: Thank you. Sills: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: To the Petitioner, you also have a swimming pool in your yard? Petitioner: Yes. Sills: And you have a chain link fence running north and south behind the pool? Petitioner: Yes. Sills: That’s just to encase the pool; is that what it’s being -- Petitioner: Yeah. Sills: And there’s not going to be any change to that? Petition: No, that was there - I put that there to, you know, encase the pool because you have to have something around the pool. Sills: I just questioned the chicken wire fence. I didn’t quite understand that one. Petitioner: Because that also kept my dogs in but for a treat once in a while we got an acre back there. I got a double gate on that chain link fence. Sills: You’ve got a huge lot. Petitioner: Yeah. We’ve let the dogs out there and we stand out there with the dogs and let them roam back there in the back yard and then that’s where the neighbor complained that the dog went to the back fence and went over and went into his yard. So, he comes knocking on my door complaining about the dog so we kept the dog out from the backyard for a while until I put that wire up. Sills: And what’s going to happen if we take the wire down then what? Petitioner: Take a chance of our dogs going on his property. Sills: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: But the dogs are never left alone, we’re always out there with them. So, you know, we’re watching them. They’re well behaved dogs, you know, they listen pretty good. Sills: I was watching while I walked back there. Your neighbor to the north, does he present any problems to you? Petitioner: I like him. He’s a nice guy. Sills: He let me walk through his property to get to the back to see yours, Petitioner: Yeah, he’s a real nice guy and then of course you walked through his property so you could -- Sills: And I just shuddered. I shuddered when I walked through the property. Petitioner: Yes, you could see that stuff and I know the Zoning Board also has an issue with him, too, and I’ve had an issue with him for again over 20 years, you know, and nothing has really been done not by complaints by other people when I’ve talked to him I’ve heard other people have complained. So that’s an issue I really don’t want to get into but if I have to I got – Sills: All right. Thank you. Banko: To the chair, there’s a current case pending regarding his neighbor. Sills: And the junk that he’s got there? Banko: That is correct. Sills: I thought I was on Wentworth Street there for a minute. Petitioner: See we’re also – our house with both neighbors, we’re right in the middle of it. We’ve got an ant problem, carpenter ant problem, you know, from the wood and the logs and everything that’s around there the mess and now we’re getting mice in our home. It’s a mess. I’ve even got a cat that’s killed two mice in the house so far. I’ve got these traps in the house in the basement and I don’t know. It just seems like these mice have a mind of their own because I can’t catch them. Sills: How long have you lived at this address? Petitioner: I think almost 30 years. Mrs. Trotter: ’80 or 81. Sills: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 85 March 22, 2011 Henzi: Any other questions? I have a couple, Mr. and Mrs. Trotter. You provided a great many photographs for us this second time around that show some things in your neighbors side yard that you don’t want to look at and you provided a description of those things and I appreciate that. Petitioner: Well, we didn’t want to complain the first time. We were told when we come to this -- Henzi: I didn’t get to the question yet. Petitioner: Sorry. Henzi: The question is all of the photographs except one or two were taken from an aerial view to allow us to see what it is in his side yard. But the photographs that are taken from ground level show the top of your fence and at one point he’s got a – it looks like a, you know, a tractor cab in the side yard that you can see the exhaust pipes. My question is the fence seems to be doing the trick. When you’re in your back yard, I don’t see how you can see all of the things that you’re showing us in the photographs. So, why do you need a seven foot high fence? Petitioner: Again, it’s not really seven foot high. It’s just – the one section it just the ground runs downwards, I mean, if I could, you know, have my fence like that to the ground but when you’ve got an uneven ground, you know, it tapers down and you try to follow it straight and go down and I did where it was seven feet I went down a little bit and like I said that seven feet -- Henzi: Well, let me pause right there. Mr. Banko, do you measure from the grade or do you measure -- Banko: You measure from the grade. The fence is allowed to be no higher than 6-ft. 4 and it’s supposed to be elevated off the ground at least two inches and I would think that would be for maintenance underneath the fence. Henzi: So that would suggest that if he’s got fence that is 7-ft. in some sections and the grade is depressed, the fence is actually greater than seven feet. Petitioner: No, I measured from the ground. I actually measured from the dirt up, but as I explained to him before is if I come out and stand on my deck and that little section that’s 7-ft. back there, that’s where his garage is and his garage is facing, you know, my yard and standing there there’s a foot on the top of his garage door that you can see and that kind of blinds the view from seeing somebody in his garage or him looking over -- Henzi: There’s a what? Petitioner: It covers the view. So, if I’m standing on my deck, I look over there I can’t see anybody standing in his garage. I see the top of their heads, but you’re not making contact with anybody, the same with him. If he’s over there in his garage and he looks City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 85 March 22, 2011 over at my deck or something, you know, he’s not going to see me unless he’s, you know, up on his tippy toes. Henzi: You said that there’s a foot referencing his garage. I still don’t understand what you mean. Petitioner: Let me see if I can find the picture. Henzi: When you’re on your deck, can you see into his garage, just a small -- Petitioner: A foot, like a foot. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: It’s like you’re standing there and from the top of my fence you see this much, you know, of this garage open. Henzi: Okay. Any other questions? Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: So, Mr. Banko, if this ground were very level instead of having the undulation as the Petitioner describes, would this fence comply with our ordinance? Banko: Well, if it’s 7-ft. high, it would not, usually when there’s a decline in the grade usually if somebody’s putting up a privacy fence it will step down. I mean in some areas it might be a little bit more than your six four, but I mean -- Moran: Here’s what I’m trying to get at. I imagine the reason it is seven feet where the ground is depressed is because the Petitioner has a desire to keep each section level. And what you’re suggesting is that you would take a section and then step it down as the grade sloped downward. But you do it with sections, you wouldn’t have the top of the fence sloping consistent with the grade. Banko: Correct. Moran: So, how much of this – is that Mr. and Mrs. Trotter, is that accurate? Is that why the fence is over seven – is it approximately seven feet in certain spots? Petitioner: No, in that one area basically yeah because it goes down. Mrs. Trotter: And we do have a step down. Petitioner: And I do have a step down right where that seven feet marker is, it does go down that’s where I cut it. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 85 March 22, 2011 Moran: Well, what length of fence is in excess of six and half feet? Banko: I haven’t seen the fence so I can’t answer that question. But I would think that you would try to let common sense prevail a little bit regarding when the fence is stepping down there there’s still going to be areas of that fence that are possibly more than that 6- ft. 4 and there’s really not a whole lot – unless you step every six inches down, you know, and you keep it declining that way. Moran: So is one remedy here to even if some earth has to be moved to take up one section of that fence and lower it, step it down? Banko: I suppose that would be possible to do that. Moran: Is that a possibility? Petitioner: What’s that to -- Moran: To take a section of the fence. I’m still unclear if we’re talking about six feet of fence that is in excess, or 50 feet, or - what are we talking about? So, where it steps – and Mr. Harb is showing me a picture on page 20 where it steps up all of that is in excess. What would it take to remedy the height? I’m looking at the top picture on page 20. Petitioner: Can you see where it does step down right there? Moran: Yes, in the back of the yard, back of the – toward the rear of your yard approximately where your neighbor’s garage begins. Petitioner: Right. Right there I’d say probably about eight feet, maybe 16 feet at the most is – it tapers down. It is seven feet right at that top point right there where it drops and then it goes -- Moran: Do you see something on the neighbor’s side that appears to be leaning against the fence although it might be a piece of equipment? Do you see that post that is leaning on the fence and sticking above the fence as you come toward your street? Petitioner: It’s a handle. Moran: A handle or something; do you see that? Petitioner: Yeah, page 20 on the top. Moran: Yeah. Petitioner: That orange, orange and yellow. Moran: What’s the height of the fence at that point would you estimate? Petitioner: That would probably be about 6-ft. 5. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 85 March 22, 2011 Moran: And our ordinance allows 6-ft. 4 here. So if that’s accurate, you’re suggesting as I can read it here that maybe two sections of your fence are in excess of 6-ft. 5? Petitioner: Yeah, yeah, that’s what I’d say about 16 feet, eight feet, 16 feet. Moran: So you’re suggesting if you were to somehow or another even if it entailed cutting those off, you could remedy the situation right there. Petitioner: Well, yeah, but as you can see at this angle if I’m over here on my deck where I got to step down that kind of covers up his garage door opening and that’s what I’m saying. With his garage door open if you when from the top of his garage door opening and then just came down like a foot, that’s what you would see off the top of that fence. So if I came down even more, then it’s not really privacy. Moran: I’ll leave this topic but what troubles here is that no one in the room seems to exactly explain to me how much of the fence is in excess of the ordinance. The Petitioner is representing that we’ve got two sections which are 12 to 16 feet. Is that what this case in height is really all about? I don’t know. Banko: I think that the case is about that the fence, the privacy fence was erected without a permit. Moran: No, no, the height – I understand that Mr. Banko, but I’m saying the height section of it, it is about two sections of fence that are in excess of 6-ft. 5. Petitioner: That’s basically what they’re complaining about the height, no permit, the bad side – not the bad side, the framing side – Moran: Well, I’m going to get the bad side next. Why do you think it’s fair – I’m sure we’re going to hear from your neighbor, why do you think it’s fair even though its been there for 10 years that the – it’s not in compliance with the ordinance? Petitioner: Because it wasn’t fair with what he was doing running two businesses out of his – that house, building up that back. It wasn’t fair when he took a two car garage and made it into an eight car garage without asking me and then having the City help him build that addition. Moran: How did the City -- Petitioner: That addition from the front to the back so he could maintain this eight car garage that’s facing my house. That wasn’t fair. I didn’t think that was right. So, I put this fence up. He never asked me what I wanted. I didn’t feel I should ask him what he wanted. If it’s - giving the City - paying for a permit for this fence, I’ll do that, that’s fine, but it’s been up there for 10 years, the wood is kind of a little dry, you know, but as you can see, as you can see in these pictures, he still does work that’s against the ordinance, you know, working on trailers, construction trailers that are coming in. Parking cars back with no plates on them. That’s still not fair to us to have to see that, to hear it on the weekends. I come home I want to sit on my deck enjoy my pool and I hear him grinding City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 85 March 22, 2011 and hammering and nailing and making a whole bunch of noise. And then not only that he’s got workers coming over there, you know, parking in his front, they park in the back. They shut their gate and hide everything. Moran: Thank you. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: On the lines of Mr. Moran’s questioning, other than the good side is facing you, you can basically take care of this seven foot issue by cutting down and you say you step down, I’m going to say you stepped up those sections of fence because if you look at that fence, it continually runs the same height – now the ground may go up and down but the same height until you get that point where it steps down and continues back. So you could take a circular saw cut off six or – six inches or so and take care of this problem yourself very easily; is that not true? Petitioner: That’s true. I can, but then I get a clear view right into his garage. Pastor: No, you’re going to have a clear view of two feet of the top of his garage not his whole garage. And you know what, if I stand on your deck on an eight foot ladder I can see the bottom of his garage, too. Petitioner: But like I said they’re always in there working. Pastor: Well, you know, you’ve caused part of this problem yourself. So, we’re trying to come to a conclusion for everybody here. Petitioner: That’s fine. Pastor: That’s all I have. Henzi: Any other questions? Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: How much of this fence extends into the front portion of your property or the front side yard? Petitioner: It extends maybe 4-ft. from the garage. Aloe: Four feet. Petitioner: From the front of the garage because my garage is set back. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 85 March 22, 2011 Aloe: Well, it should stop at the back of your house. Petitioner: The back of the house or the garage? Aloe: Well, the fence isn’t supposed to come any further than the back of your house. Petitioner: Okay. Then it would be, then it would be maybe 8-ft, 8-ft. I think we mentioned that in the first meeting. Aloe: Okay. So it’s eight feet into the front yard. Did you say it’s 8-ft. into the front yard then? Petitioner: Yeah, do you have one of these lot plans? Aloe: Well, that’s what I’m looking at. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the table. Good evening. Davis: Good evening, Zoning Board. Todd Davis, 15900 Hubbard. I’m the neighbor that’s been talked about. Really quick I want everybody to know I’m not here to be argumentable. I’ve really tried. I’ve spent my time in the last 53 days since the matter was tabled. I spent a lot of time in this building and trying to get a resolution. I met with Mr. Fisher briefly one day. I have spoke and been into Mr. Banko’s department on several occasions. And a couple things here – I’d like to address them because a lot of it we can just be done with a lot of it. Some of your questions I’m not going to remember if Mr. Moran or Mr. Caramagno or who asked them but I’ll address these because it’s pretty fresh. First of all, when I see the petition get mailed back to me the only thing I see on the appeal from January 18th till today was I see the deleting of a chicken wire but just the wording and the chicken wire has not done anything in 53 days. We’ve had gorgeous weather. We’ve had big machines in his back yard very capable of taking a fence out. On February 11th I had to call the police. He made comments that I’m yanking his stake out. Yes. I mean, there’s been plenty enough times to take pictures. If the fence has been up there this long and all the first meeting you got endless pictures from me. I passed out a packet because there were six panel members. Picture taking was over and the question was asked: are you going to continue, I believe it was Mr. Harb asking are you going to continue to keep the stake there. I have lots of pictures. The stakes change month to month, week to week. It could be steel rebar and the last one on February 11th I went to the police station because I got a phone call that another stake was being driven in on my side and I, you know, usually when a neighbor puts a fence up that’s kind of like you draw the line in the sand. It’s in four inches, the fence is up, then you stay on your side of the fence, the other neighbor stays on their side of the fence, you get along, and everything is fine. You don’t just keep coming back over to the side of the fence that you installed and driving in stakes. Okay. So, on February 11th I have to go to the police station and tell them what I’m going to do. I said I’m going to go home I’m going to take the stake out. I made this comment before about several things. Rebar, wood stakes, chicken wire fence, I have grandkids and I have small kids again. I have seven kids that come to my house that under the age of four years old, my grandkids and City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 85 March 22, 2011 two of my younger kids. Okay. So when I take the stake out, I go tell on myself before I go home. Then the police come out and basically I even said to Mr. Trotter, he said why is the stake there? I want to take pictures. I said, well, today is a gorgeous day it’s almost 60 some degrees, the sun’s out, take your pictures and then could you just take your stake when you’re done. The police officer said, “That’s a great idea." He said, “I’m busy." I said well, when you’re not busy, put the stake back in, take your pictures, then take the stake with you please. I did take the stake out. I don’t want stuff on my yard even if that four inches is his still the fence is erected. You don’t go to you neighbor’s and start going over a four foot chain link fence and nailing stuff in the ground on your neighbor’s fence. You just don’t do that. Okay. Born and raised here. So, let’s just get to this about my breezeway. It’s not a breezeway. It’s an addition. I was here in 2000. I went through the whole thing. So, it’s not an eight car garage at all. It was all changed around. I pulled every single permit, changed a bit of living space, and connected the front to the back. It’s an addition, it’s not a breezeway. I consider a breezeway something skinny at a cottage that you walk through to get to get to the garage. No, it’s not a breezeway, but all the windows that I have in it – when you stand in my addition the only window that you could gain a vantage point would be in one upstairs bathroom on the whole addition. So, the garage, there’s no vantage point. The whole addition - all those windows you have to be in the upstairs master bedroom and there’s one, two, three, four – there’s four 20 some inch windows. We don’t live in our bathroom. We don’t look out the bathroom. I have better things to do. I don’t stare out - I’m not Gladys Kravitz. So, being said with that all the other windows, I’m not staring out them. Now, Ron said today, you said, have you had a chance – I think it was Mr. Caramagno asked did you have a chance to talk. He said, nope, and won’t. Well, as of about 4:30, 5:00 o’clock this afternoon I was going over to my other neighbor’s house and Mr. Trotter was going to get the mail on his way back and on my way back he was up near his garage and he said something to me and I said, what was that? And he said something. I didn’t quite catch it. I said, "Ron, could you come here for a minute I would like to talk to you." Meaning maybe we can talk for a couple minutes here and have this, you know, a well oiled machine by the time we come in here. I’m all about getting this done. I want to enjoy my yard and the garage thing and the deck, okay, if you live on Hubbard Road and you look across the street, you look at a whole garage everyday house, after house, after house. I don’t really understand that, but who cares? I guess that’s just my thought on the whole thing. If you live in a subdivision, you’re going to see garages across the street almost every suburbia type atmosphere. I don’t understand that. The fence of (inaudible) and I’ll come back to this because I’m more pro on certain things. Okay. The 7-ft. thing, it’s not 8, it’s not 16 feet. I saw Mr. Pastor kind of make a comment. I think I saw him say something more like 50 feet. It’s not 8-ft. it’s not 16-ft., but, okay, getting to that point. The fence, these couple inches, I mean I’m the one – I know you have an ordinance. I understand that and now we’re talking about inches to maybe resolve something. So, really those couple inches, they don’t bother me at all. But what bothers me is the first meeting the questions asked when did you put the fence up? 2006. All of a sudden now, the fence has been up here not five years, it’s been up here double that. Now, I know you record minutes. We’re were downstairs maybe it was video taped but the bottom line is on the January 18th meeting Mr. Trotter said the fence was put in on 2006 plain and simple. I don’t care about a photograph. We know technology. I can print up pictures and put a date on them and I can make that picture be from 20 years ago, I can make it be from today, I can do whatever I want on a computer. The fence was up there in 2006. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 85 March 22, 2011 Why that has any bearing, I don’t know if there’s some grandfather, you know, if it’s over so many years then you get to just skirt the issue. I don’t really care, but I want the things to be accurate. You’re asking questions, let’s make the answers accurate and let’s resolve this so we can move on. So, the fence was 2006. I broke ground on that addition in 2000. I’m almost positive it was in the fall of 2000. Excuse me. The fall of 2000, I’m pretty definite without going back on my records around two weeks before Thanksgiving. When I submitted my plans, they were approved. And again, they were all approved. This large garage that I have that I don’t live there either. Okay. And not standing in the garage door opening 24/7 staring to the north. Okay. That was all done above board with permits and everything. So, now that we’ve cleared up my garage and my breezeway and other than me throwing the stake out of the yard. Okay. Let’s get to the length of it. The exact – that’s another thing that bothers me. At the last meeting, it was petitioned for 40-ft. Then you asked a few more questions one of the panel members and then Mr. Trotter said, well, its 44 feet. Again, recorded minutes somebody’s writing something down. Last time downstairs he agreed it was 44 feet. Now, the petition comes back here 53 days later now it’s down to 40 again. Okay. So, this is the exact measurement and I actually had asked to have the fence measured because I don’t want to be the only guy measuring it. I want somebody to be an independent person to measure it but, I went and measured it again. I’ve measured that fence umpteen times and what it is, is from the very first post to the end of the two angled posts on the split rail exactly give or take three inches. Now, that there’s no snow there it’s 55 feet. Then there’s a little gap, then there’s a rock, and give or take a few inches it’s another five feet to the west side of the rock on the Hubbard side giving it a total length of fence, split rails angled down, space and rock of 60 feet. Now, the last meeting I had made a comment that, you know, it’s kind of hard to open my door when I get to the back of the driveway and I know that Mr. Pastor had asked me this question and he said, well, your driveway at the apron fan tails out, you know, aprons out and I said, yes, it does, but the only thing that’s changed in all these years that that driveway has been there for 20 some years, didn’t grown legs and move, that’s the exact words I said last time. So, I went out and measured it again and here’s what it is. Now, my driveway is straight as an arrow to the apron. So, on post one there’s a space of 64 inches from my - like the post that’s facing my side, so the south side of this little four by four or four by six post from there to the edge of my concrete is 64 inches. Then you come down 11 feet give or take a couple inches because the posts are spaced out, you know, they’re not all exactly split rail, but roughly 11-ft. per section. Then it goes to 59, then another 11-ft it comes down to 53, then it goes down to 49, then it goes down to 44 and when it gets to 44 inches from the edge of my driveway to the very last section only the last 16 inches is where my apron starts to flair out and I snapped the line and I measured it and it’s not even quite two inches that the apron starts to tail off. So, the apron really doesn’t come into play. So, the fence and – where everybody’s discussing those sections are going to be coming out. Okay. So, I just wanted to clear that up that it angles in. In the interim of these last 53 days, I met with Mr. Fisher. In his file he had the survey. There are no interior dimensions on the survey. So, when you get a survey with no interior dimensions, there’s no point that you can say, well, it’s going to have a stake. Ron said there were five. So, you’re going to have your four stakes, for sure you are getting four, to go bam, bam on the north, bam, bam on the south. But if there are no interiors, then there’s no way to say okay, from the side of my house at the very front which is not an addition it’s the original 15900 address. Okay. Over to this fence, it’s on or off the boundary line. Here’s the deal. I said this earlier. I don’t care about a couple City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 85 March 22, 2011 inches. What I care is, if it was all straight and not keeps angling, angling, angling in till we get to the end of the thing where it’s almost touching my driveway that’s my problem. I could care less if he was on my property four inches, two inches, I don’t care. So, being on that - discussing the first fence -- Henzi: Hang on, Mr. Davis. I let you go for a long time and you’ve done a good job of critiquing their presentation but all that I can say from listening to you is that you don’t like how it angles off, but I don’t know what you think about the fence height and I don’t know what you think about the split rail. So, tell us what you want us to do. Davis: Split rail if it’s – okay. I’m not the one coming here with egg on my face. Okay. So, if you didn’t pull a permit and it says 20-ft. two sections are fine. Put the two sections in. You didn’t pull a permit. You didn’t submit anything. You didn’t even give the City a chance to deny or approve it. So, even when it’s approved you’re only supposed to be able to go 20 lineal feet in one direction, in one straight direction and then I don’t know if you make a turn you get another 20. If you lived on a corner lot and wanted to go like that on the corner whatever- but you’re allowed 20-ft. in one direction; am I correct on that? Banko: That is correct. Davis: Okay. The height, I don’t care. If the height of the rails are off by x amount of inches I could care less it looks fine. Henzi: What about the privacy fence? Davis: Privacy fence. Okay. This is what I sat down with Mr. Fisher and discussed. Okay. Obviously you can tell that Ron definitely will not speak to me. He doesn’t like me. He doesn’t talk to me. I mean, I’ve tried to open up conversation. Okay. I want to resolve this. I really do want to have an enjoyable summer. So, here’s the deal on the privacy fence and this is what I propose. Questions were asked pricing. So, if I was to come in here and say, I want the good side. I never got offered it. I want the good side. So, you got two ways you could do that. You could go buy 186 slats so if Ron and Mary wanted to keep their good side you have to duplicate the other side. It is 186 boards. Excuse me. So, 186 boards is roughly $2.75 per board times 186. Okay. Forget the nails and screws. If you just counted the slats and obviously you can see Ron’s not going to come in my yard. He doesn’t like to even be or look at my side of the yard. We’re not seeing eye-to-eye so then he’d need to have somebody install it on my side of the fence because we just would not go on each others side of the fence any longer because we’re not getting along. So, he would have to spend 186 times 2.75, bear with me for one second. I had this – does anybody have a calculator that could help me out – Moran: It’s about $550.00. Davis: Very good, actually – oh, I gave a little variance depending on where you shop. I said, that’s pretty darn good, 500 to 550 forget the screws and nails. But then you’ve got to have some guy, kid, one man, nail them up, screw them up whatever. Okay. Fine. So, let’s just say $550.00 plus one guy’s day to do it. Whatever you pay a guy, $15.00 an hour, $10.00 an hour, who cares. All right. Now, what I say to Mr. Fisher is, in the sake City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 85 March 22, 2011 of getting along. Yes, I did go knock on the door and the dog was in my yard and I got little kids. I don’t think that’s a bad thing for neighbors to say. My kids were scared. I got little kids. It’s a big dog. In fact, I gave them that dog 11, 12, 13 years ago when their dog died and said here, you can have second pick of the litter. I’m selling them for 600 bucks a piece, but you had a loss, have the dog. So, I don’t think it’s bad that I knocked on the door and said the dog I gave you is scaring my kids. Could you please just keep it inside? That’s when the chicken wire went up. So, now let’s get rid of the chicken wire. So here’s the deal. Twenty-two sections of fence, Home Depot and Lowe’s are about your best shot. Twenty-two sections of fence at $44.97, 22 bags of quick-crete at $3.47, 24 posts because you obviously have to have posts so you’ve got to have two more posts than the number of sections, okay. It is 77 bucks. Okay. It comes out to a total of $1,310.00. That’s tax, everything and again, it is one day to dig the holes, set the posts, and the next day you screw them on and you are done. It’s not a big job. Okay. So, I look at it like this. I tell Mike and I’m going to save this to the end. I said, I’m willing to split the cost of the fence from the end of the 6-ft. board on board fence that all your photos show where it stops at my basketball court where my kids play basketball – shame on me – and continue it to the east side of my property and Ron’s property where our yards stop at the very east side. Now, Ron’s dogs can have their frolic of the yard, my kids don’t get scared, if the ball rolls it doesn’t go in his yard, everybody’s happy and if you look at it like this financially speaking, it’s almost a wash. I’ll keep the bad side of the fence that I’ve looked at for 10 years. Okay. I’ll look at the bad side because I’ve looked at it for 10 years. I’m used to it now it’s awesome. And then the other fence that I’m going to split the costs with I get the good side because on January 18th meeting, he said, we don’t care good side, bad side, who cares. And one of you panel members asked, why did you ask Mr. Davis. Well, so, I’ll look at the bad side of hundred and some feet that stands there. We split the cost of the new fence. It’s the same amount of money. We’re going to cohabitate way nicer and now let’s get to the height of the fence. I’m voting for Ron and Mary if you don’t make them cut it, okay, because for some reason, Tim the Tool Man Taylor, me and Mr. Wilson, we just want to see this much of each other’s head. Okay. And this much of my garage and I think we’ll be better off. I’m not a bad guy. I just want to enjoy my yard. I want to stop calling the police and I don’t think it would be a bad thing for the Zoning Board here to say, you know what, I think we’re going to let these few inches go this time. We’re going to make an exception to the rule. Okay. And the other issues just in case there’s anything floating around, my wood pile that brings mice in, I came into Steve Banko’s office and Tom Bok and I gave him photographs. I said I’m one man. I have firewood. Yes, it’s touching the ground. Here are my photos and here is what I’m doing. He goes, hey, thanks a lot. It’s a work in progress. Are you going to get this cleaned up? I said, yes, I am and me and him – I can’t remember the date we came up with. But I said, I’m working on it right now and I showed him progress. He said, “thank you.” Then my dog issue, now my dog issue. Animal Control came out two times. They basically told me, they were going to tell Mr. Trotter that I should start taking video tape of him because they think he’s taunting my dog. End of story. If there’s any other issues someone wants to address with me in the mail and mail me out because I’ve got three businesses in this economy working out of my backyard and I got people parking in my driveway. I guess – you know, a driveway you park in – I know it’s a little weird but yes, I do have people – get that little scenario? Any way, I do have people park in my driveway. Yes, they are allowed to. That’s why I City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 85 March 22, 2011 have a driveway. People come over, they visit, blah, blah, blah. So, I think that is the nicest offer coming from me possible and, sir, Mr. Sills, you were over today? Sills: Yes. Davis: Okay. Sills: I saw somebody raking. Davis: That was one of my son’s. I had just come out and he had told me and what were we doing. If you saw it, we were cleaning up debris from firewood working towards the firewood pile. You know what, I was going to take a picture of it and I thought this is ridiculous. Why am I out here taking – I feel like I’m on some reality show and I got to keep going on and on and on. I don’t want to do it no more. And you saw my yard. I know you don’t have the full vantage point of a lot of Ron’s photos, but if you notice my photos turned in to you, mine are from the ground. A lot of Ron’s photos are from his roof. As I was out in the back yard cleaning up my firewood pile the other day, he’s on the roof with a video camera talking, this is Todd Davis’s yard blah, blah, blah. I don’t know where this is all going and we’re neighbors but that’s my whole thing in a nut shell. The prices, it’s really – if I say sorry I want the good side. I mean, I think that’s a really good game plan that I put together and I mean, it makes sense to me. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for Mr. Davis? Aloe: I have one. The only thing you didn’t address is the fence that comes into the -- Davis: The side yard? Aloe: Yeah. Davis: That side yard is fine because what Ron said is true. Where the side yard fence comes up five feet, six feet, eight feet, who cares? There’s a big bush that’s been there for 40 years. Okay? And I’ve been going to that house because my brother owned the house before me. I’ve been going to that house since I was nine years old. That bush has been there forever. Okay? That side yard fence is no issue whatsoever. His truck is there. I got a gate like you said. He’s got that thing. It’s no big deal. I’m really asking you guys seriously. Let the man not monkey around with his fence. I’m trying to just get along. I really am and it’s really troubling. Okay? And I’ve owned and lived in six different houses between Merriman, the park and Yale and right behind Handi-Dip and on Hubbard Road my whole life. I like Livonia. I’ve raised a lot of kids. I enjoy the Rec Complex. I do everything here. I play fast pitch softball here for 30 seasons at Ford Field, Bicentennial. This is my home so I’m not going anywhere. Okay. So, I’m trying to really be nice and have a resolution. I was asked to do that 53 days ago so I hope you guys can see that I tried to put something together and I’m even going to take money out of my pocket because - this is my last thing. I know I talk a lot. My last thing I’m going to say is I said on the last meeting I’m not trying to get a free fence the extra way to the east side. So, I hope by me saying this and I will - believe me I will okay. I’m putting in half the money. So, that should be enough to say hey, he’s really making the extra effort. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 85 March 22, 2011 He’s not trying to get a free fence and that kind of washes the other fence of saying, spin it around -- Henzi: Well, let’s find out if we have a deal. Mr. and Mrs. Trotter? Petitioner: I don’t want a privacy fence all the way down my property line. Mrs. Trotter: We just put it so that we could block the – have, you know, he could work on his stuff in the back and we can enjoy our backyard. Petitioner: Put up a chain link fence. Henzi: You could do that. Davis: Not really because I’ve had the police at my house so many times it’s ridiculous. Ron just can’t stop his comments -- Henzi: I think we’re clear there’s a dispute. Davis: No, I know – right -- Henzi: You made a decent offer and unfortunately we’re being put in the place of the arbitrators when it should have been done at the fence a week ago or more. Davis: I’m sorry. Henzi: That exchange should have happened before tonight. Davis: Oh, exactly, but I can’t force a conversation. I can’t open it. It takes two people to have a conversation. Henzi: I agree. Is there anybody else who wants to speak for or against the project? Seeing no one else, Mr. and Mrs. Trotter -- Davis: I have one last question. Henzi: Go ahead. Davis: I - and Steven might know the answer to this. Okay. So, if I want to pull a permit for a fence do I have to do anything other than ask the neighbor about the good side on a fence, a boundary line fence put four inches on my property, does the City have the approval power other than the good side, can I pull a permit and put a fence up? Banko: A privacy fence? Davis: Yeah. Banko: You’d have to have the – you’d have – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 85 March 22, 2011 Davis: So, anything above four feet? Banko: If it’s a privacy fence and it’s above four feet, you would have them sign off on the fence as they would have had to have you do with the fence that’s up there now. Davis: So, that never happened. Banko: That’s why we’re here. Davis: Well, now – and I did tell Mr. Fisher this that only stands about the privacy fence in question if they agreed to the continuation. I told them that. That offer I put down is only because then if it’s not accepted then I’ve got more to say about the privacy fence and the bottom line is it’s not okay to look at the bad side. It’s – Henzi: You made those – we understand that it was conditional on splitting the cost. Davis: Okay. All right. Henzi: Thanks. Davis: Okay. Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Trotter, you have the opportunity for a closing statement. Mrs. Trotter: One thing I wanted to say is that we presented letters at the last meeting that were not read into the minutes. I handed them to the secretary and Jackie at the Zoning Board had mentioned to bring that up as well. So, I just wanted to make that – I think there was five letters. Petitioner: Also I’d like to make a few more comments here. Todd started the ball here and now he wants to act like a good guy. Like he said, he does talk too much that’s why we don’t get along. Henzi: Well, let’s not descend into that. Let’s talk about the fence only. Petitioner: Okay. Now, I would like to – I would like to show you on the – where the pictures are on the satellite picture from the Engineer’s Department showing where the right-of-way is. If you take a look at that, Todd Davis said his driveway has been in for over 20 years. I have a dispute with that. I was there when he put that driveway in. I believe he did not get a permit for that driveway and he put it on an angle. And at the time he put his driveway in, I made a statement to him that you’re going to end up being on my property out by the street. And like I said in our letter that he did not care and now as you can tell my privacy fence to my split rail fence in my driveway that is all straight. It is his driveway that you can see clearly is on an angle and that’s the whole dispute. That’s why we are here. That’s why he made a complaint about all this stuff going on because he does not like that. He wants to use my property because his driveway is not wide enough to park two cars side by side. So, therefore, he comes in over here and creates mud and ruts. His cement is actually higher than the dirt from driving on that and City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 85 March 22, 2011 packing it down. And I don’t know if you noticed that, Mr. Sills, when you were out there that there was mud along the side by the split rail of where he drives -- Sills: I didn’t, I didn’t really notice. Petitioner: -- and that’s what he wants to do. He wants to actually exceed the property and come over and park on my property. He wants to come over there. They turn around in their driveway. They go up and around when they can’t back out and there are other people there, they go around it and go out my driveway. And that’s the whole purpose of this. When he does have a lot of people come over, they’re right there. It’s like they’re coming into my house. Mrs. Trotter: And one other thing that, you know, he’s a good neighbor, he held over 28 days garage sales and the City did absolutely nothing. Petitioner: I think we stated that in the letter in, yeah, I think it was ’99 that he had over 28 garage sales. Henzi: In 1999? Mrs. Trotter: No, in 2009. Petitioner: I mean 2009, 2009. No, he’s had prior ones before, too, but we’ve called up – a lot of people have called the City on him and stuff and nothing was ever done. In his last five, he got a permit for it. Now, how does that happen? Henzi: Anything else? Petitioner: That’s it. Henzi: Thanks. We’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Sills. Caramagno: Hold on, we had letters. Henzi: Oh, I’m sorry. Sorry about that. Caramagno: Philip Baker [32610 Myrna] approval (letter read). An approval from A. Blusma [15776 Hubbard](letter read). Craig Croletto [32271 Myrna] an approval (letter read). William Galvan [15645 Hubbard] writes an objection (letter read). Mary Millen [15980 Hubbard] writes an approval (letter). An approval from Bernard Moshel [32674 Myrna] (letter read). John and Patricia Snider [15520 Brookfield] write an approval (letter read). Henzi: Mrs. Trotter, do you think the letters you were talking about were read tonight? Mrs. Trotter: Yes. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 85 March 22, 2011 Henzi: Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Sills. Sills: I don’t have any problems with the fence. I do think the split rail fence is a very beautiful fence that you put up, very decorative, and I really don’t have a problem with your privacy fence either. Unfortunately, we periodically run into situations where adjacent neighbors just don’t see eye-to-eye not that one is a bad person and the other one is a good person, but sometimes it just – sometimes brothers and sisters don’t get along. And unfortunately, here we have a situation that is just like that but I think if you would try to reason this out with your neighbor I think maybe you might get a little bit of progress and at this point I think a little progress is better than none. I would like to see this tabled one more time and have you and your neighbor try getting together and being that we’ve thrown everything out on the table that there is to throw here, everybody’s made their comments as to what they felt was right and they felt was wrong. You’ve listened to all of the Board members make their comments both you people have and I think you’re both good people and I think you could resolve this. So, it would be my suggestion to table this for one more time and see if two adult people can get together and resolve it, at least part of it. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I would agree with Mr. Sills. I don’t know if that’s going to happen or not but I think it would be World War III over there if this fence was brought down to four foot or even removed. I think fences make good neighbors especially in this case. I would like to see you work out this agreement and continue your fence and continue the privacy. I think it’s the best solution for both of you and not doing it I think you’re very foolish. You’re going to have to take down that chicken wire fence. You’re going to have a portion that’s unfenced unless you continue with a chain link which I don’t think that’s going to solve your problem. I think you need that privacy fence. I do think that the front fence, the split rail, it’s decorative. I don’t see a hardship or a special reason why it should extend beyond the 20-ft that the ordinance allows. So, I definitely would say that you’d have to reduce that. As far as the fence height, I don’t think whether it’s 6-ft. 5 or seven is going to make any kind of difference. I think the big thing is your neighbor is objecting to the good side not facing him and if it never was an issue before but it is now, I don’t know how all that plays, you guys are so wound up with each other I really don’t know, but my suggestion is, is that you get together and you continue that privacy fence for your own peace of mind. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno: Caramagno: The last time we met I thought that you two neighbors could get together and possibly get this resolved in kind of the fashion that I heard Davis mention tonight. What he’s mentioned sounds like a good deal to me. It doesn’t sound like a good deal to the Trotters I think, but then the fences that exist now doesn’t sound good to Mr. Davis. What I’m speaking of the privacy fence in the back. I’ve heard a lot of Todd Davis did this and Mr. Davis did that and whether he did 30 things wrong it doesn’t mean that you can do a fence wrong. It just doesn’t mean that. If you had issues with the things he did, there are procedures for that. Assuming Mr. Davis is right and came through the process City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 85 March 22, 2011 for his additions on his home you had opportunities to object to his things then, but then because you didn’t like it to just go throw a fence up I don’t think that that’s fair either as far as the privacy fence goes. I like the idea of finishing the job. The job as it is now is not done. It’s half done and it’s half done and then done in poor taste on the back end with the chicken wire fence. I don’t think that’s doing anybody any justice in the City. I think it looks poor. I think it’s in poor taste. So, I wouldn’t want it next to me. I think the job needs and should be finished. So, my thought on the back yard fence is either finish the job or take it down. The front corral fence, the part that’s into the right-a-way needs to obviously come back and be made right. I have less (inaudible) with the front fence as I do this back fence. I think the back one just is in terrible taste right now and needs to resolve it. So, again, front fence bring it back off the right-a-way, back fence either finish it or take it down as far as I’m concerned. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Sam, you took many of the words right out of my mouth. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Mr. Davis made a reasonable offer. I still think that under that offer this basketball is going to be a problem. It goes over a 6-ft. 4 fence, it goes over a 7-ft. fence, it has to be retrieved, not going to solve that with the fencing either. But as I said at the last meeting, I’ve listened to this for an hour and 15 minutes tonight and I haven’t heard anything different this evening that’s constructive other than Mr. Davis’s offer and which still may have some problems. I’m not sure if Mr. Davis’s offer envisioned virtually having a double fence because there was some discussion about 186 slats being nailed on. But I’ll take it that it wasn’t and they were going to have a mismatch of the good side and bad side. So, again I would have the same comment I had at the last meeting. When you have a big neighbor dispute, it’s unfair to ask – they refuse to get along, they can’t agree, it’s unfair to ask us to be the dictator of the answer. So, I think the best answer at this time is to enforce the ordinances and whatever situation it is be that running businesses, or be that uncleanliness or whatever it may be. Again with respect to the front fence I think I said it the last time no one seems to have an issue with the height. That’s evidently not a big deal. There was nice neighbor support for it. I would grant some sort of excess 25-ft., 30-ft., something like that and position it in a reasonable area obviously not in the right-a-way. But again in summary, I would deny in part and approve in part with those modifications. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I would also deny in part and approve in part. As far as the split rail fencing in the front yard, I’m okay with that. I think it should be on private property not public property. It seems to me that that would mean that that fence should not exceed 33-ft. That’s by eyeball test. As far as the height of the fence, you know, in this case I’m okay with this, but it needs to be finished. Either remove the fence or – actually I think it needs to be removed and I think that they should have the three inches on the bottom and I think it should not exceed 6-ft. so the total would be 6-ft. 4-inches, 6-ft. 5-inches which is the way it should be and I think we should enforce the ordinance in that regard. And also I would say that when you have lots like this along Hubbard Road, I think it is really a crying shame that you have to have a picket - or a wooden privacy fence going all the way back. I think it defeats the whole purpose of having a big lot like this. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 85 March 22, 2011 Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, I commend Mr. Davis. He actually surprised me with that offer. I think it was an extremely fair offer. I think Mr. Trotter, I think you’re going to tear down your fence it you don’t take it. I will support a tabling motion. I will not support anything over our ordinance in height and the fence out front I’m good with it as long as it’s back on your property. I hope you get the tabling resolution that you can actually talk to your neighbor and you should talk to your neighbor. I know you’re mad at him. I know something happened, whatever it happened, but you have to be a grown up now. It’s time to be a grown up and it’s time to take care of this issue. Henzi: I’m not in favor of a tabling motion for this reason: the original application stated that the purpose of the fence was to provide privacy and so that neither neighbor would be a disturbance to the other. In reality, the reason for the fence is because the Trotters cannot stand Mr. Davis and it took us two meetings and almost three hours to get to that point and I feel like we’ve just wasted time. So, I don’t want to table this. I think that we should make the decision. My thought about privacy fences is that when reasonable they’re appropriate, but you can’t force it on somebody. However, Mr. Davis’s offer seemed reasonable to me. I don’t think he should get stuck with the bad side even though this fence has existed for a few years. I think what’s fair is fair. I think that the Trotters in rejecting this offer run the risk of escalating this dispute so that now you’re causing Mr. Davis to go and pull a permit and to seek a variance so that he can put up a privacy fence in the rear yard while he races you when you put in your chain link fence and we’re right back here again. I think this needs to be settled. So, I would propose to go along with what the other Board members said about the split rail fence and I think the privacy fence height is fine but I think the good side should be on Mr. Davis’s side regardless of cost. The floor is open for a motion. Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Can I ask you a question about your comment? Henzi: Sure. Moran: What was your last statement? You think what should be -- Henzi: Oh, I think that Mr. Davis’s suggestion that the slats should be moved to his side so that he’s looking at the good side should be a condition. I’ll ask Steve. I didn’t take that to be a double fence, but if you tell me otherwise. Banko: I didn’t really – the way he described it -- Fisher: Mr. Chair, since I spent some time as Mr. Davis alluded to discussing this very proposal, what I understood him to be saying about the slats was he was saying that the cost of fixing the fence so that the good side was on his side was roughly the same as the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 85 March 22, 2011 half that Mr. Trotter would have to pay to extend the fence all the way to the east end of the property. Henzi: Oh, okay, so dismantle and put the fence back up. Fine, that’s my condition then. Moran: Or said differently comply with the ordinance. Henzi: Right. Moran: It doesn’t address the height issue. Henzi: What do you mean? Fisher: Are you saying you would approve the height with the condition of switching the wood to the other side? Okay. Henzi: Yeah. Moran: Do you want me to try it? Henzi: Sure. Upon Motion by Moran, supported by Aloe, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-01-03: Ronald and Mary Trotter, 15910 Hubbard, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to maintain a 7-ft. tall wooden privacy fence, a portion of which extends into the side yard, which is not allowed, and which was erected without the approval of the adjoining neighbor and without a permit, and with the posts facing the exterior of the lot of the person erecting the fence. Petitioner is also seeking to maintain a split rail fencing in the front yard, at a length of 40 ft. in a single direction. Fence Height Length of Front Yard Fence Allowed: 6 ft. 4 in. Allowed: 20 ft. Proposed: 7 ft. 0 in. Proposed/Existing 40 ft. Excess: 0 ft. 8 in. Excess: 20 ft. Petition as amended by the Board at the Zoning Board of Appeals meeting of March 22, 2011: Fence Height Length of Front Yard Fence Allowed: 6 ft. 4 in. Allowed: 20 ft. Proposed: 7 ft. 0 in. Proposed/Existing 30 ft. Excess: 0 ft. 8 in. Excess: 10 ft. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 85 March 22, 2011 The property is located on the east side of Hubbard (15910) between Five Mile Road and Myrna, be granted in part and denied in part for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because in regard to the front rail fence because the proposed variance is minimal and there is neighbor support. With respect to the privacy fence, the uniqueness requirement is met because both neighbors want some kind of barrier/privacy fence but cannot agree upon how that should be achieved. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because with respect to the side fence there would be much more openness than is desired by both neighbors and with respect to the front fence, it is immaterial. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because with respect to the front fence it is immaterial and there is neighbor support and with respect to the side fence, it is not inconsistent with other privacy fences on neighboring properties. 4. The Board received six (6) letters of approval and one (1) letter of objection. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified as “Low-density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the split rail fence be removed from the public property and the fence length should not exceed 30 feet. The existing height is the maximum acceptable. 2. That the side portion of the fence that enters the side yard, is permissible and granted. With respect to the side fence in its entirety, that the existing height is acceptable, but in order to maintain the fence as it currently exists, the good side must be facing the south adjoining neighbor’s property. 3. That the fence must be built as presented to the Board with similar materials that now exist and the good side being changed to the other side. 4. That a permit must be pulled. 5. That the chicken wire must be removed. 6. That the variance is good for three (3) months. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 85 March 22, 2011 Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: If we’re going to follow the ordinance, the ordinance does say to allow some space on the bottom, are we not going to care about that? Moran: Well, I think however it’s currently up is the maximum that it can be under the resolution I proposed. Mr. Banko, do you have some input on that? Banko: I would think that the way that the fence is existing now would be fine. Is it on the ground at this time? Petitioner: It touches the ground, yeah. Moran: My resolution proposes that it be no different and we have plenty of video evidence as to how it currently exists. The only other thing I would say is that the, I think that there should be one other condition I’d like to proposed and just so no one gets too cute here, it must be with similar material to what we have now. I’m only approving – this whole thing is contingent upon this being built substantially as presented to us with the good side being changed to the other side. Aloe: Agreed. Henzi: Any other discussion? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Any other language on finishing the fence or nothing? Moran: I think that’s for another night. I think that’s for another – they have a pull – oh, and a permit must be pulled. Caramagno: And the chicken wire is -- ‘ Moran: Chick wire must be removed I think that’s been agreed to, certainly not approved, but you can state that explicitly. Henzi: Anything else? Moran: I just want this thing built. It’s either going to come down or I’d like it to be built in the spirit that is there now as the parties have seen fit and as we dealt out here in the last number of hours that this is how it’s going to look and remedy it in some way. Henzi: Anything else? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 85 March 22, 2011 Fisher: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Fisher. Fisher: Can we just please make sure we have four votes for this. Moran: We’re going to have a vote. Henzi: You mean before I call the roll? Fisher: Yeah, so we don’t – because we don’t want to be in a position where we never want to do multiple resolutions or try to do multiple resolutions but number two, we don’t want to be in a position where we foreclose the case on the basis of insufficient votes if you see what I’m saying. Henzi: Yes, I see your point. Harb: And can I have an interpretation -- Fisher: Go ahead. Harb: -- would the good side being to the neighbor if they put planks, new planks on that side and kept their planks where they are is that considered -- Aloe: They can’t. They can’t go on their property. Harb: Well, I didn’t say how it would – who would put it up. Aloe: Well, how would they do it? Harb: Someone would have to, but that’s the question. Fisher: You’re saying could you have – I guess I don’t see any reason why consistent with fence styles you couldn’t solve this problem somehow as long as you’re sharing one set of poles and frames and so forth. Harb: Okay. Henzi: Well, they’ve got two yes, I’m a yes, there we go. Call the roll. Moran: As long as we’re still discussing the motion. Henzi: Oh, go ahead. Moran: In my mind there’s a strong possibility that this is never going to happen. The Trotters may decide to just remove the whole fence which is their right and see what happens after that. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 85 March 22, 2011 Fisher: Yes or the flip side is that maybe the three months come and go and nothing happens. Moran: And then enforce the ordinance, do we not? Fisher: Okay. Moran: Please advise, Mr. Fisher, I mean you have experience and represent the City in the legal matters. I’d like to know if you think we’re proceeding down the wrong path from your viewpoint. Fisher: Well, part of me says this resolution sounds like a denial under another name. Moran: If the acceptance is with respect to the front fence. Fisher: Right. Moran: But yes it is saying it’s acceptance in part for the height and virtually a denial because you have to comply with the ordinance with respect to the side and it’s also an acceptance to the variance by having it in the side yard, a portion in the side yard. So to me, it’s an acceptance in part and denial in part. Fisher: Okay, if that’s the will of the Board. Caramagno: Well, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Terry, you said it’s – your words for it – it complies with the ordinance; is that what you said? If the good side faces -- Moran: Do you want me to say it again? Caramagno: Yes, please, just the last piece of it. Moran: Why I think this is – the way I proposed it is granted in part and denied in part. To my way of thinking, it’s granted in part with some modification on the split rail. It’s granted in the idea that the side to the privacy fence between the properties can come into the side yard which is against the ordinance. Caramagno: Yes, I’m cool with that. Moran: It’s granted in the sense that it exceeds our ordinance height. It’s denied in the sense that the good side has to be flipped to the other way. And then I want to also recognize that we can’t make sure that the Petitioners do all this. If they want to have a fence they can do that. It may be a practical issue about somebody going on that other side, but that’s not for me to decide. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 85 March 22, 2011 Caramagno: But isn’t a big piece of this being left out that you have to have the neighbor’s consent and we don’t have that. Isn’t that one of the biggest pieces of fences in the side yard? Moran: I think we have the neighbor’s consent. I think Mr. Davis will be fine with a – he said the side yard doesn’t matter to him and he gets the good side. What he doesn’t get is his resolution to the rear of the property. Caramagno: I thought I heard that differently. Okay. I’m good. I’ll take the roll if you want me to. Henzi: Anything else? Okay. Call the roll. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Moran, Aloe, Harb, Henzi NAYS: Caramagno, Pastor, Sills Henzi: It’s granted and denied in part with several conditions. Number one, the split rail will be removed from the public right-a-way and not to exceed 30-ft. in length. The current height of the decorate split rail fence shall be the maximum height. The side yard fence height is appropriate but the good side must be on Mr. Davis’s property’s viewpoint. It’s good for three months which means you’ve got three months within which to complete this. The building materials of the fence must be – or the fence must be erected with similar materials and built in substantially the same manner as it exists now and you’ve got to remove the chicken wire. Good luck to you. Davis: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 85 March 22, 2011 (8:34 #1/2482) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-03-08: Jaavy, LLC (American Specialty Oil), 34115 Industrial, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to construct a building addition resulting in deficient west side yard setback. West Side Yard Setback Required: 20 ft. Proposed: 10 ft. Deficient: 10ft. The property is located on the south side of Industrial (34115) between Glendale and Autry. Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: No, I do not at this time, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Hearing none, will the Petitioners please come forward? Good evening. Can you tell us your name and address, please? Petitioner: My name is Anthony Galbo and I run a business at 34115 Industrial Road. Henzi: And you, sir? Klocke: My Glenn Klocke. I’m with Elite General Contractors. Henzi: Mr. Galbo, go ahead. Petitioner: Again, my name is Anthony Galbo, I own property and run a business out of Industrial Road. That business has been there since 1973. I went to work there about approximately 15 years ago and I bought it in 2006. Since I have purchased it, we’ve grown leaps and bounds. We’ve got into different areas of the edible oil industry and our whole business is predicated on volume. So, we’ve increased our volume over 10 fold and our sales volume about 500%. We’re proposing an addition to handle not future needs, but just our current needs for our customers. We’re out of space. Our docks are facing west, our neighbor’s property. So when trucks come in to load up or unload, they’re pulling behind our neighbor’s building, backing up in. It often causes a lot of grief for our neighbor because he hates these trucks going in his property and they get confused. Our driveways are kind of right next to each other. So, a lot of times they pull in his driveway sometimes they get it right and they pull in ours. In any event, to get in our docks they have to pull behind his building. I know that’s a utility easement but they have to pull back there. For some reason with the amount of truck traffic that we’ve had over the past three years, they don’t like it. And we’ve come to an agreement where I pay him rent to be able for our trucks to go back there. So, that’s one of the things. The other thing that this expansion will do for us it’s going to clean up our property. If you look at our property right now, I’ve got four storage containers on the east side of the building, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 85 March 22, 2011 four storage containers on the west side of the building. I’ve got totes lined up on the outside of the building that – it just doesn’t look good. I have a lot of higher end customers. I deal with Little Caesar’s Pizza, Hungry Howies, Garden Fresh Salsa and they come to our facility to - they want to see how the oils are being made, the margarines are being, and it just doesn’t look good. Unfortunately, I have to have it – I got to have – I have to have space to put packaging materials. This expansion will not only clean out the property, but I actually think it’s even going to look better. The building is going to look better. If you look at the rendering, there’s some trees and shrubbery that’s going to be put in front of the expansion. And we’re also going to resolve the dock issue by having the docks facing Industrial Road. So, there will be no need for trucks to pull into the neighbor’s yard, get confused, go, you know, behind their building or anything like that. It would resolve that issue. Parking. I believe that the parking is – right now all of our employees park on the east side of the building. There’s plenty of room for them so there will not be a parking issue with this expansion. Additionally, I believe within the next three to five years, we’ll probably add five to six jobs within their business. Henzi: Mr. Galbo, I think I just have one question and that is, is this the only spot on your building footprint on which you can construct the edition? Petitioner: Well, it’s – we tried to buy the building next door. We entered discussions with the neighbor that we had issue with the trucks going behind his building. We just could not come to terms on a price. I know I’m the guy next door and that property is perceived to be more value just because I’m the guy next door, but it didn’t make sense because it’s a lower ceiling building. I can’t store as much product over there. When I make the product, I got to hi-lo it over there. When I ship the product out, I got to hi-lo it back, put it in the trucks and frankly the building needs a lot of work. It needs a lot of – for me to get it FDA approved there would be a lot of things that haven’t been done. It just wasn’t cost effective. We looked on the other side of the building and it would probably be a band-Aid for two years. I believe with this expansion I can stay in Livonia for the next, you know, 10, 15 years and once I get to the point where I out-grow this, my plan is this would just be a manufacturing facility and I would buy just a completely different distribution facility. Henzi: Thank you. Any questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: How many employees do you have now? Petitioner: We have 14. Pastor: Fourteen and you plan on adding five or six? Petitioner: Yes. Pastor: In the future? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: Yes. Pastor: I was just wondering how many parking spots you may need. How many customers do you normally have come down in a given day? Petitioner: In a day? Pastor: Well – Petitioner: One, two at the most. Pastor: Okay. I was just concerned about your parking. Petitioner: We’re not a retail outlet. We don’t – so any customers that come by, they’re usually picking up product or we’ll have a meeting and it’s, you know, it’s just one, two at the most. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Sir, the 10 feet you have on the – you’ll have on the west side, is the fire department okay with that as far as being able to travel in and around your building in case of an emergency? Petitioner: I believe, I mean, behind me there’s, you know, an alley easement. It’s an easement back there. So, I mean they can, they can get that way. There’s a parking lot adjoining where the addition will be built. Caramagno: Isn’t there a fence along there? Petitioner: No, no, I promise you there’s not going to be any fences. Caramagno: Okay. So, the 10 feet there’s no real barricade I can’t remember if I saw one or not. Petitioner: No, no, there won’t be and, you know what, we even talked about this. To even make it look nicer for our neighbor we can put shrubbery, we can put some arborvitaes along the building on that side where, you know, where that 10 feet is going to be. Caramagno: I think that would help. I think it would look nicer. Okay. That’s all I have. Henzi: Any other questions? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 85 March 22, 2011 Pastor: Mr. Chair, one more. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Have you talked to your neighbor about this? Petitioner: Oh, yeah, he knew, you know, I wanted to build the addition before we even entered talks to buy his building. So, he said, no, why are you going to do that, buy my building. And, you know, I would have loved to have bought the building. I really would have. If we could have come to terms and it would have been – I would have done it. Pastor: Thank you. Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: What are the dimensions of this addition? Somewhere about 80 by 100 or thereabouts? I don’t have the dimensions. Petitioner: Yes, it was about that. Moran: Did you have any other options or are you precluded from going closer to Industrial Road? In other words, take that and make it more like round number 70 by 110? Klocke: To go closer to Industrial Road, the problem – there was a little dispute on the setback here on the front. And we also have some tanks here that we have to deal with underground tanks that we didn’t want to disturb. So, that’s why it was left at this 50 foot, as you’ll see that 50 foot setback there. Petitioner: And I do get, I do get products shipped from California and a lot of times those are those big long sleeper cabs with a 53 foot trailer. We need enough room so that we’re not, you know, right up to that, right up to the street. Moran: Why did you decide this needs to be almost 8,000 square feet instead of 7,000 square feet, just choosing the dimensions it could be 70 by 100 instead and comply? Petitioner: Well, in terms of production and storage that roughly equates to about four truck loads of product which is what I’m, you know, some days shipping out. As I said before, my whole business – we don’t mark up with percentages, you know, I wish I could say I could buy something, package it, and make 20, 30 percent I can’t do it. We’re dealing with a commodity and quarter of a cent is sometimes all the profit I get, a quarter of a cent per pound. So, I need to buy in large volumes. So, I can buy vegetable oil in a rail car, have it sit on a spur, I can go back and forth with a tank car bringing them in the building, we can package it up, I need to be able to store that product. The railroad companies will not give me 60 days, 90 days on a rail site. So, I’ve got to package it City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 85 March 22, 2011 quickly and I’ve got to be able to store it in a building. So, that 1,200 feet or 1,000 square foot that’s about 96 to 108 pallets of product Moran: The question I have is you’ve represented that this is going to allow you to clean up your property? Petitioner: Yes. Moran: I would hope so. It looks like hell. Petitioner: I agree. Moran: But it doesn’t have to even under its present conditions. I’m concerned that you’re not going to clean it up. Petitioner: Well – Moran: I mean there is just junk thrown around there that doesn’t need to be there. I have responsibility for a number of properties as well and I wouldn’t let any of them look like that and I have space limitations to deal with as well. So, if I can be blunt about it, sir, I’m anxious for you to expand in Livonia, but not to have it look like that. And I do understand industrial complexes. Your neighbor to the south has a bad area as well. How can I have some assurances you really will clean it up? Petitioner: Well, you can – any time the City of Livonia has come by and said, hey you need to fix your parking lot, I do it like that. Whenever they have come by and said hey you need to do this on the inside for, you know, fire lights or whatever, I’ve done it like that. I’ve responded quickly to any request that they made. Moran: Why do you maintain the cardboard, the broken down pallets, and as I recall a lot of 55 gallon drums hanging around. Petitioner: That’s part of our operation. I mean that gets cleaned up and I can show you receipts from Waste Fill who is the guy who brings those big 44 foot containers. Once a month we’re filling them up with broken pallets, with cardboard and things like that. It’s just part of the everyday operation that we have. Moran: So, not being a Smart Alex, but did I just catch you at a bad time? Petitioner: You probably did. You probably did. Moran: And if it’s happening monthly, I understand. Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: Would those store, you know, those 40 foot bins or whatever -- Petitioner: It’s gone. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 85 March 22, 2011 Harb: Where would they go? Petitioner: I wouldn’t need them because I have storage space. Right now what I have in those is packaging materials. I have large totes that we put vegetable oils in and ship them across the country. And I don’t have any space inside to store those. Harb: They look like garbage containers. They’re not waste management containers or anything like that? Petitioner: They’re storage. Harb: They’re temporary storage. Petitioner: Yes. Harb: So those would be gone from the parking lot? So, you’re telling me that the City hasn’t come to you recently and asked for you to redo the parking lot and get rid of all the – because that parking lot -- Petitioner: Oh, they have absolutely and the Inspector has been fantastic. He said, listen – and I’ve brought him in the building. He said, "I see what’s going on." We can’t even move hi-lo’s in there. To get 10 pallets I’ve got to move 40 pallets at times. And he understands what’s going on with our business and he’s been very, very understanding. He said, listen, as long as you’re doing something. Are you going to buy the guy’s building next door? Yes. I mean we had plans drawn up. He saw that. He goes, all right. As long as they see you’re doing something, we’ve got to get something done here soon. Harb: Now, you’re going to want to build up to 20,000 square feet basically, close to 20,000 square feet. There are no other buildings around that you could buy rather, you know, because if you go ahead and add -- Petitioner: Sure, but I like where I’m at. Harb: -- 7,600 square feet. You own the building and it’s yours, but if this ever leaves – if this business ever leaves, you know, what are you going to do with it because there’s a number – we just got a letter today, oh, you caused us to not lease out a building. You’re going to have this 20,000 square foot building if your business isn’t there. Are you sure you want to do this? Petitioner: Yes, yes. I was asked that same question when I wanted to buy the company. Are you sure you want to spend all that money? Yeah, why not. Henzi: Anything else? Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 85 March 22, 2011 Aloe: When I was at your property I saw a dumpster back there not enclosed and I was kind of looking on here; is there an enclosure for your dumpster? Petitioner: There is not. Aloe: So, where’s that going to be sitting now? Petitioner: We’re going to put that on the other side of the building. Aloe: The parking side? Petitioner: Right. Aloe: Without an enclosure? Petitioner: It’s never had an enclosure. There’s was never – Aloe: Mr. Banko, is that code, can they have that without being enclosed -- Banko: It probably pre-dates the ordinance. Aloe: But what about now? Banko: That’s a very good question. A question that a plan examiner would be better at answering than I would. Petitioner: If you drive up and down Industrial Road, I mean, that’s all you see, you don’t see anything in enclosures. Aloe: That’s why I say it for industrial maybe it’s different than commercial business. Banko: It well may be. Aloe: Okay. Henzi: Anything else? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: What is the exterior of your building? It looks like block, is it a split face block, decorative block or -- Petitioner: The front is formed concrete and then – Klocke: The addition. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: Oh, the addition. Klocke: Well, the addition right now I think is just - but you can’t see on the rendering is just regular block, simulated block. Pastor: So, it’s not going to be a decorative block? Klocke: We haven’t got that far yet in the design. Pastor: Okay. Klocke: I would say it’s going to be block though. Pastor: I’m sorry. Petitioner: Block. I would say at this point it’s going to be block. Klocke: Yeah. Pastor: Okay. This underground sanitary holding tank, is that just a grease trap; is it not? Petitioner: Yes, it’s just a water separator. Pastor: It’s a grease trap. Okay. Petitioner: Yeah. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the table. I see no one coming forward. Can you read the – there’s no letters. Caramagno: No letters. Henzi: Gentlemen, you have the opportunity to make a closing statement; is there anything you would like to say? Petitioner: No, I’d just like to say we’re committed – I’ve been a life-long resident of Wayne County and I’m committed to Livonia. I know there are tons of options out there for me to do, I really don’t want to do it. But I’d just as soon stay here. I like the area that I’m at, I think it’s good. Klocke: The cost to move your tanks. Petitioner: Oh, sure. I wouldn’t be able to buy real estate in Livonia if I have to move here. Okay. And I will have to move if I can’t build something here that would suit, not only future needs, but my current customer needs. There’s a great expense. I’ve got City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 85 March 22, 2011 inside storage tanks that, you know, are from floor to ceiling that hold vegetable – I can hold 600 pounds of vegetable oil. I’ve got boiler piping; I’ve got oil line piping all over. The expense to move that is so great that’s it’s just, it’s not feasible for me to do that. Henzi: Okay. Thank you very much. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I will be in support. I love seeing a business grow. I’ve been in Livonia and my business, too, all my life. So, seeing someone wanting to stay, put the money in and expand I think is a good sign. So, I will be in support. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I think for the money you are spending the improvement is going to be very, very nice. The setback on the west side is still I think minimal when you take in the whole job. I think it’s going to allow you to clean your property up to get those unsightly storage containers out of there, get your things inside. It is a nice accommodation to get those trucks and get them back in that bay and keep them off the road when they are sitting there. I think that’s another nice touch and it keeps this building fully occupied and active in our City and that’s all good stuff. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Well, I kind of had the same concern with Mr. Harb about it’s difficult for me to see new construction go up when we have so many buildings that are in disrepair and unoccupied, but the Petitioner obviously has the right to do what he wants to with his property and he’s asking for a fairly small accommodation from the City. I’m struggling a little bit to find the uniqueness here, but I think the uniqueness is as I listen this evening is – and by the way I was talking about an out building of sort not relocating elsewhere, but there’s plenty available. But I can understand you not wanting to have a product flow problem and move your product around. One uniqueness that you have right now is that you need the other person’s property in order to get your trucks in there and this is going to correct that problem and allow you to control your own destiny if you will. If that other building ever put an addition on or came and asked for an accommodation like this and you virtually wouldn’t be able to receive your product or ship it out. So, I do see the uniqueness requirement. You thought it through. You choose to expand. Approximately 70 feet of this is well within our ordinance and the other 10 is an accommodation. I’m all for it. I wish you well and I’m glad things are well for you. I will make one last comment that I definitely look forward to seeing a tidier property next time I go by there and maybe it will be the day after pick up. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: I will support this as well. I’d like to make sure that perhaps you could add some greenery along that property line as he suggested and that the building materials will be consistent with your present building. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 85 March 22, 2011 Pastor: I also will be in support. It takes a lot of guts to improve a building in this economy. So, I commend you for that. To Mr. Harb’s end, you cannot match the existing building to the concrete. It looks like this will be blocked. Harb: Okay. Pastor: I would like to see decorative block at least in the front, but that’s – hopefully you’re a good enough corporate citizen that you will do that, but I will be in full support. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: As long as there’s no fence involved I’ll certainly be in support. Henzi: And I agree with what everyone else has said. I think Mr. Moran hit the nail on the head about the uniqueness. So I, too, will support. The floor is open for a motion. Harb: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Upon Motion by Harb, supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-03-08: Jaavy, LLC (American Specialty Oil), 34115 Industrial, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to construct a building addition resulting in deficient west side yard setback. West Side Yard Setback Required: 20 ft. Proposed: 10 ft. Deficient: 10 ft. The property is located on the south side of Industrial (34115) between Glendale and Autry, be granted for the following reasons: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of a thriving business that needs space for future growth and to upgrade the facilities. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because without expansion Petitioner would not be able to accommodate a growing business. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the granting of this variance would add value to Industrial Road and its neighboring properties and would also be consistent with neighboring properties by also cleaning up the property because storage would not have to remain in parking lot. 4. The Board received no letters of approval or objection. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 85 March 22, 2011 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified as “Industrial” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the building materials consist of decorative block to the front of the building and be consistent with plans that were presented to the Board. 2. That the variance is good for one (1) year. Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: One of the conditions that there will be decorative block in the front of the building, is that going to be an issue because we were really not presented as we ordinarily are with a package about the building materials and specs. Henzi: Go ahead. Did you hear his question? Petitioner: I’m sorry. No, I did not. Henzi: What he’s asking is – Moran: Can you comply? Are you comfortable with the conditions? Petitioner: Well, you know, an issue just came up. Klocke: With my discussion with the building department regarding the setback here is he – his concern was we still had a 10 feet easement down through here for the Fire Department if they wanted to get through there. Harb: Okay. I’ll remove the greenery along the west side of the building. Klocke: I mean, I don’t think he has a problem with that, but if the Fire Department has a problem with that, then we – Harb: No, that’s fine. I’ll take that out. Klocke: Okay. And that’s an issue. Harb: But decorative block; is that okay? Henzi: Mr. Pastor, Is that okay? Klocke: What kind of decorative block are you talking about? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: He’s talking about a split, a split face block in the front. Pastor: Split face something. Petitioner: A split face block in the front. Yeah, no problem. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: I was just going to say to that point, Craig, do we need to say anything about color or just use – Pastor: You know what, yes, I think the builder will do a good job matching what’s existing. Henzi: Anything else? Hearing none, please call the roll. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Harb, Pastor, Aloe, Caramagno, Moran, Sills, Henzi NAYS: None Henzi: The variance is granted with those three conditions that I will read one more time. Decorative block, front facing, side at a minimum consistent with the plans that were presented. It’s good for one year which doesn’t mean that it expires in one year, it means that you’ve got one year within which to begin and complete construction. Good luck to you. Petitioner: Thank you very much. Klocke: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 85 March 22, 2011 (9:01 #2/25) APPEAL CASE NO. 2007-06-29 (Rescheduled from February 1, 2011 due to inclement weather): Christopher Martin, 12275 Inkster, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to maintain a 6-ft. tall wooden privacy fence within the corner side yard, which is not allowed, and a portion of this fence is even to the front house line of 12420 Arcola, which is also not allowed. Privacy fences must not be within the side yard. Proposed is to erect a 7-ft. tall black wrought iron fence, which is excess in height, within both the front yard setbacks of a double frontage lot, which is not allowed. Wrought Iron/Chain-link Fence Height Allowed: 4 ft. Proposed: 7 ft. and 6 ft. (respectively) Excess: 3 ft. and 2 ft. (respectively) The property is located on the west side of Inkster (12275) between Grantland and Capitol. Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: Not at this time. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Harb: I have a question. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: Why is this commercial -- Petitioner: Can we just wait until everyone is here in attendance; is that possible? Harb: Sure, I’ll wait. Petitioner: It gives me a couple minutes to set everything up also. Henzi: Sure. Steve, do you remember the question now? Harb: The question is why four feet not six feet? Banko: In relation to? Harb: Well, what’s allowed is four feet. Many other commercial properties seem to have allowance of six feet. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 85 March 22, 2011 Banko: Basically, on your C-2 and C-1 properties fences really aren’t allowed. Fisher: If I may add, Ken, pursuant to Section 10.04 of the Zoning Ordinance, residential type properties have to comply with the same resident – commercially zoned residential properties have to comply with the same rules as would apply to the nearest residential zone -- Harb: So, if this was a law office that was a house on Inkster, it would have to have a four foot -- Fisher: Same, yes, same idea. Harb: All right. Thank you. Henzi: Any other questions for Mr. Banko? Good evening, Mr. Martin, can you tell us your address? Petitioner: Yes, Christopher Martin, 12275 Inkster Road, Livonia, 48150. Henzi: We were here once a long time ago but you’ve got a revised plan. Petitioner: Could I just – Henzi: Take it away. Petitioner: Okay. Excellent. I know it disappoints some of you but as you’re aware it’s about fencing and so let’s stay on that subject. I’m going to hand you a copy of the law here since you’re the Chairman. I would like you to swear me in. The law is here. Let me approach you and hand it to you. I think that many times that you can eliminate liars if you swear them in. It’s just like a court proceeding. Since you’re an attorney I know that you’re familiar with that. Here you go. Henzi: Mike, I’ve been handed MCL 125.3602 which purports -- Fisher: Okay. Henzi: -- to allow the chairperson of the Zoning Board of Appeals to administer oaths and compel the attendance of witnesses. Fisher: There are some Zoning Boards with much more formal procedures than we use here where they actually have attorneys cross-examine the witnesses who appear before the Board and so forth. So, that takes that into account. Years ago we discussed that in this Board - maybe Toni is the only person who is even on the Board today who was on then - and the other Board members were not interested in that level of formality, but you certainly are welcome to swear in Mr. Martin since he seems to want to be sworn in. Henzi: This talks about testimony but really, I mean, he’s going to give a narrative statement in great deal. We’re considering that the same thing; aren’t we? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 85 March 22, 2011 Fisher: Well, we consider it the same thing and presumably it’s just as important for that to be truthful as if he were answering questions. Henzi: Okay. Petitioner: I would like you to. Henzi: Sure. Stand up and raise your right hand. “Mr. Martin, do you swear or affirm that the statements and testimony you’ll give before this Zoning Board of Appeals tonight is the truth so help you God.” Petitioner: That’s the truth, the whole, yes. Henzi: Thank you. Go ahead. Petitioner: And the reason I’m bringing that up is because that I was questioned in previous times that I was here as far as my biggest concern was theft and then it spiraled into how much theft do I have and where’s my police reports and all this other stuff. So, that was really the intent behind it. Okay? It’s like we’re not going to believe you unless you bring the proof. I do have some police reports, but just to let you know, what I had been experiencing the last several years has been approximately 12 to 14 hundred dollars a season going away. So, therefore, that’s the hardship on the fence. I’ve made some changes to this. I’ve taken some comments into consideration that had been made – updated the plan, willing to answer any questions. Henzi: If you don’t mind, I’ll go over the revised plans so I make sure I know what’s different. Petitioner: Sure, we can start at any corner. It was mentioned earlier – excuse me – it was mentioned earlier about towards the front of 12420 Arcola if you want to start there, the rear of the property and we’ll work around? Henzi: Sure. Petitioner: Wasn’t there some question about fencing being in the side yard there? Henzi: Well, I was going for more of a general purpose just trying to find out what’s different. So, if you don’t mind I’ll start with the front. When you first came, the front, you were proposing a 7-ft. wrought iron. Petitioner: That’s correct and that still is the intent. Currently what’s there I’m sure you still have the pictures from my previous occasions being here, but, yeah, currently there had been a 4-ft. cyclone fence and that is just not adequate. It’s never been adequate and as I stated earlier, is that that’s why the previous owners had guard dogs and for the liability factor I didn’t want to do that and I have put up a beware of dogs signs and things like that to kind of fool people, but there are no dogs on the property. Theft occurs from Inkster Road that 4-ft. cyclone fence. It also occurs from the parking lot. But if you want City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 85 March 22, 2011 to just concentrate on the front, the wrought iron fence in essence is in the position as the 4-ft. cyclone. Henzi: It would just be a substitute for the cyclone; wouldn’t it, but with some gates. Petitioner: Well, it would be – except what I have done – matter of fact I did it last summer is I enclosed just to the north of the house an area there. I poured a slab, started to erect – this is in the side yard and partial front yard. I started to put up some pallet racking there. A lot of that brick that you see temporarily set out front, okay, it will go in that location. Also, the wrought iron fence that is sitting in a pile has been there for a number of years now. Once that is erected I will have more room to bring in that brick that is sitting on those pallets up front. So, that stuff is eventually going to be in an enclosed area. As far as the – one of the changes here is that I did take, you’ll see it marked in yellow there, is there’s two 6-ft. cyclone gates there. I took the plastic white, I think it was white, it might have been green, but anyway, I removed that I felt that it was not – it was something that I didn’t really need that would put me into compliance to that point anyway. As far as I had pictures, I don’t know of that certain location. I think they might be in your package. As far as the Grantland side, if you drove by the white 6-ft. privacy fence that is shown in orange there on the site plan that’s all done. I put that up. As far as not putting up some new fencing, I actually – the part that’s in the parking lot there, I had power washed that a number of years ago and painted it white. So, all the six foot wooden fencing – that’s it. You’re looking at the finished product there. As far as in yellow the two gates that were made to enclose that one area that is north of the house there right where I poured that slab that is done, okay, those two six foot cyclone gates that I made there. So, really the only thing that is not done is that referenced on the site plan is anything that’s in blue. The blue represents the 7-ft wrought iron. Actually if you want to get really specific it’s not a true 7-ft, 6-ft.10. It’s been a while since I’ve been here although I know you’ve talked about me I got the minutes. I also – it gave me time to go in front of the Plymouth Road Development Authority. Most people just think that if you’re a member of the PRDA that you’re located right on Plymouth Road and that’s not really true. I’m a member of it also. It actually runs down Inkster Road to the railroad tracks. So, I’m either the beginning or the end of the PRDA depending on which location you start and then it goes down to where Plymouth Road splits – Plymouth Road and Ann Arbor Road. So, in going in front of the PRDA I do have a letter of support from them. I don’t know if they mailed it to you because due to their running out of money that basically John Nagy the Director of it had actually retired. So, I brought a letter with me in case in wasn’t mailed and somebody, you know, somebody forgot. But I do have support from them. As far as my neighbors -- Henzi: Can I stop you? Petitioner: Sure. Henzi: When you say support, is it a specific site plan that you have support for or just in general? Petitioner: Yeah, well, yeah, the – as a matter of fact I spent so much time there that they actually later on they limited the petitioner, they passed a time limit, 10 minutes for the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 85 March 22, 2011 petitioner because I was pretty precise in my presentation of everything concerning this property. But, yeah, this is actually dated – I’m looking at the letter here, Chairman, March 31st of 2010. I do have that to put into the record about letters. I think there was some of support in there, but I’ll be honest with you and I’ve explained this one other time is I don’t go and try to twist my neighbors’ arms. They get a letter from you guys. It’s up to them. I did have one of my neighbor’s though that did stop on by who’s had several operations on a hand of his. So he actually got a relative to write the letter for him. So people have at least on that occasion have gone out of their way. I think it’s a good plan. Is it compatible with the neighborhood? I think it is. Across the street, Smede and Son has a – it’s within 300 feet even though that’s Redford Township, that has a wrought iron fence on their property there. North of me, if you remember back there’s a letter in there somewhere from Jeff Bryant who used to be the Director of Economic Development here in the City. And he made reference to it, but I’ll tell you also on the north side of me the DPW yard and the front of their property has an eight foot brick wall. And then running parallel to Grantland is a six foot privacy fence with three strands of barb wire on it which brings that up to seven. In essence that’s what I got here, but I’ve got some nice wrought iron. It’s the same as what’s around the courthouse. I’ve mentioned this several times at City Council meetings and I felt that now is the right time if it’s good enough for the courthouse it’s probably okay now that I’ve had it for five years sitting in the back yard. So, I’d like you guys to let me put that up. I can read some if you’d like from the two police reports of break-in’s and thefts over there if you want me to read those into the record. I can do that. Henzi: For now why don’t you just tell us the months and years in which those reports were made? Petitioner: Well, they were made recently within the – well, they were – last year. The dates are some place but – the – in one instance my neighbor called and to be honest with you I really felt that I had to wait for something big to happen. The last time I was here or the several times that I was here I would say that it’s $20.00 here, it’s $40.00 there, it’s a hundred, it’s 60, things that disappear. In this particular case, one evening I was not there and one of my neighbors saw two people walk back and forth in the parking area and used one of the vehicles that I have there like as a ladder I’d say to jump over the six foot wooden privacy fence and then he called me and – but I was too far away so he called the police and they went in the garage and stole some of my tools. Police came out. They were pretty nice, made out a report on that. They got away. And as far as the front I had to wait for a big theft there, 675 in one evening alone, but what disturbed me about that is I have a cat that lives on the property. And she’d been there actually since I bought the place and customers seem to like her, she gets along with everybody and they had actually – they didn’t use spray paint on her, but they did something, sprayed her face with something and her paws and so that’s what kind of made me mad at the time also. I have police reports on that and as a matter of fact it was the same responding police officer who was out once before – that’s his area. And so that’s pretty much it, I will tell you though, I’ve sat and I’ve talked on numerous times with my attorney about this and he told me not to mention it, but I think it’s worthwhile. As a business owner I’ve actually sat out there waiting to catch people. Now, nobody should really have to do that, but after they did that to my cat I thought well, yeah, I’m going to find out who this is and unfortunately I haven’t. I’m still holding out some hope though but maybe the right time City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 85 March 22, 2011 will come up. I do believe that if that fence would have been put up years ago that I wouldn’t have had these experiences I’m having over there as far as theft and vandalism. Henzi: Are the thefts and vandalism occurring on nights that you’re residing at the home or not? Petitioner: Well, what happened on the one night when they went into the garage is that I had just left and I was actually going to Northside Hardware in Wayne, Michigan and I was almost there and my neighbor was witnessing two guys walking back and forth. And he watched them for about 10 minutes, they were kind of like casing out the place and maybe they waited for me to leave – I don’t know what the story was but yeah if you’re really good you’re going to wait until you see that a car is gone or that I’ve left the area over there and then you’re going to at that point steal something from me if you want to. Henzi: Do you reside there? Petitioner: I stay there some evenings I do and we’ve talked about this before because, you know, I think if I don’t show a presence there every now and then that the theft would be worse. It’s just, it’s just – you know people are – that’s just the way the neighborhood is. It’s just that way. Henzi: The other question I had I’ll focus on the rear where you propose to have the wrought iron and as I looked through the minutes I saw that I had a problem with that. Can you tell me why it is that you want the wrought iron in the back? Is it because it’s see through? Petitioner: In the parking lot there? Henzi: Right, around the parking lot. Petitioner: Yeah, well, I’ve had – when I first bought this property before I bought the house next door to it there, 12420 Arcola, just bought this business the first thing the neighbor did within the first week is that he came on over – I believe his name was Jim or it was Dave. So anyway Dave comes over and he says, hey, I got a problem and it’s been going on for a while because I’ve got people in your parking lot here at night. And I said, well, I’ll see if I can’t take care of it. But – and I mentioned this one other time. I forget which one of you said it, but I’d have to look at the minutes again. When I said there were people over there rendezvousing let’s call it. Rendezvousing and this even during the day I think I mentioned one other time that they meet over there and they get in her van. Okay. I think it was Sam that said, he said, you think they’re skipping paying the hotel bill because I had mentioned that they probably didn’t want it on their charge card if they went to a cheap motel. But that was during the day, Sam. I had friends of mine pull in there and see the same thing. So, yeah, it occurs at night also. I’ve had cars vandalized. I’ve got things stolen. Uh, and we’re just talking about the parking lot now. I’ve got guys that were – and I tell them hey, I can’t have you skateboarding and rollerblading and setting up little obstacle courses here because, you know, if you fall down and split your head open then, you know, I just as soon not have it happen here. So, there are all kinds of things that go on in parking lots when they’re not enclosed. I’ve City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 85 March 22, 2011 had abandoned cars in there. Somebody’s car breaks down and they push it off Grantland into the area. I think that pretty much covers that. Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner? Harb: All right. I’ll start. Henzi: Mr. Harb. Harb: All right. Just reviewing the notes of 2007 and it seems to me that the reason why you wanted to put up seven foot black iron fence, if you will, is because you were able to get a deal on 28 sections? Petitioner: You know, I hear that and I just to be quite honest with you Mr. Harb I think that’s asinine. I truly do. Harb: It’s in the notes. Do you want me to read it to you? I didn’t say it, you said it. Petitioner: Well, I wouldn’t doubt – here’s what happened on that. Harb: You said it, not me. Petitioner: I mentioned to Mr. Fisher a number of years ago that the sections of white privacy fence that I bought, wooden fencing that I bought, I got it on sale at Lowe’s and Home Depot at various times. The seven foot wrought iron I bought off a fence contractor. Harb: You bought a seven foot fence or was it 10 foot fence? Petitioner: Seven foot fence. Seven foot ornamental, wrought iron fence and then it got into play like you’re bringing up now, well, you got a good deal on it so should we let you put it up because you got a good deal on it? It’s something that I needed. Okay? Because as I mentioned before and it might be in the minutes. I haven’t read those minutes by the way since they were recorded. Don’t have a copy of them now. So, if you say that’s in there, I’ll trust you. Harb: Well, if you did look at the minutes -- Petitioner: But people cannot climb a wrought iron fence and steal things from you. So that’s why I -- Harb: If you did look at the minutes, I was the one who tried to make an approving motion on your -- Petitioner: Wait, you said you had a great idea? Harb: Can I finish the sentence, please? Can I finish? And one of the things I did not like about the plan, if you look at, you know, the plan that was submitted back then, you City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 85 March 22, 2011 know, up to, you know, the front it’s basically the same. It’s the same plan, different color. I like the white fence rather than the stockade style fencing. I think that looks a lot nicer, okay, than what was there, but I felt that around the parking lot it didn’t need to be seven foot tall. If you’re trying to keep out cars, a four foot wrought iron fence could basically keep out cars because there’s going to be gates and if the gates closed, people could jump over a fence, but they can’t do stuff. Kids that rollerblade they’re going to do anything anywhere and whether it’s a 10 foot fence, or seven foot fence, or a four foot fence. I think personally that I could live with a lot of this because, you know, again across the street they have a six foot or seven foot cyclone fence with barb wire. Across the street they have wrought iron, you know, and I would think that wrought iron in the front would be consistent with that look. I think that looking into the property there, you know, it’s pretty messy. I just – I’m not comfortable with the seven foot fence around the parking lot. So, why don’t you talk about why there’s a uniqueness of a seven foot black iron fence rather than a four foot black iron fence. Petitioner: Well, I guess I can take a few minutes here and just say that I like to go look things up. This is MCL 125.3603 and it’s actually page 707 if any of you decide to go to the law library and look it up. It comes under number seven. Validity of Zoning Ordinances General. Advance the public health, safety and general welfare. And that’s what I think that fence back there does. I’ve already described it on keeping people out of there that are having sex back there day and night. I realize that doesn’t have anything – Harb: Do you have anything -- Petitioner: -- that doesn’t have anything to do with the height. You’re asking me the height. Harb: I already heard that. Do you have anything new why a four foot can’t accomplish the same thing as a seven foot? I understand that having nothing you could have some issues. Okay. Petitioner: Yeah, but the whole thing was that along Grantland Street when I had – first came in here and it might even have been you that mentioned you wanted it to be more consistent there and that’s why that all is wooden fencing painted white. Okay? Now – Harb: It’s like you’re doing me a favor or something. Petitioner: Well, no, I mean -- Harb: Can you answer the question? Petitioner: I’m trying to say in the rear there you’re looking for consistency and that’s what the whole issue was other times that I’ve been here. Wouldn’t you want the wrought iron fence to be the same height in these locations to be consistent? Harb: Thank you. Petitioner: I mean, that’s the way I’m looking at it. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 56 of 85 March 22, 2011 Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: Mr. Martin, I think it was actually me who was concerned about – I’ll paraphrase right now but the patchwork effect along Grantland and I think it looks a lot better. Petitioner: You know, I really can’t remember who -- Moran: I’ll go ahead and finish if you don’t mind. Petitioner: Okay. Moran: But I think it looks a lot better. Your first plan had six foot wood, it had I believe chain link gates and so on, I drove along there and I thought, I hadn’t been by there in a long time. This is – I have to refresh my memory – what was my big problem because it looked a lot better. Petitioner: Spectacular. Moran: Pardon me? Petitioner: It’s spectacular. Moran: So, you took some of our comments to heart and I appreciate that. I do kind of have Mr. Harb’s same concern as to why seven feet around the parking lot and you say, wouldn’t we like it to be consistent. Well, it’s going to butt up to a six foot. And I do understand that the white is going to remain. You’ve got it on your new plan here in pink, but the white six foot fence would remain and I’m actually okay with that, but again, if you want to use your argument of consistency, why butt a six foot up to a seven foot? I know Mr. Harb was talking about a four foot, but my question still stands why a seven foot as well? What else can we work out here? Petitioner: Well because – the question was why do I have a seven foot, because that’s what I bought at the time and – Moran: But, you know, you said at one time – excuse me for interrupting you, but you’re a very resourceful fellow, you’re very talented, can you not reduce that? Petitioner: Well, we talked about that one other time how time consuming that would be and there are two cross braces, okay, in this fencing that is two inches shy of seven foot. But another time when I was at City Council even Bob Bennett came up and he said, you know he said, if you could knock that thing down, Chris, to six and a half they’d probably okay it. I don’t think I could even take any more off of it. We discussed this once before is because there a cross braces. When you wanted me to bring it down to six foot if I make 6-ft. 10, I would be destroying above where the support would be, okay, that actually holds the fencing in the braces that go in this direction. Now, could I take one or two inches off the bottom? It would be so time consuming – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 57 of 85 March 22, 2011 Moran: I’m talking about something more substantial than that. Petitioner: I mean it would be – Moran: I don’t know how you do it either, but -- Petitioner: Well, I would get a Saw-all out and I, you know -- Moran: Then you would have to rebrace it in some way. Petitioner – I’d hack it up. Moran: And then rebrace it in some way. Petitioner: It’s really a make work project. As it stands right now to be honest with you, I have to make all the gates. Moran: One of my concerns when I first looked at this is given some of the pictures we have here is being able to see through the wrought iron. That will only occur on the front side; is that accurate? Petitioner: Yes, and that’s really that we get into – it’s the open air display, you know, I have to show the merchandise as people drive by Inkster Road there and you’d be surprised at that light there the people that look over. Moran: Oh, I’m sure. I’m not sure everyone enjoys the way you display but that’s personal taste, I’m sure. Petitioner: They all know about it. It is a true landmark. If you had to pick 10 landmarks in Livonia whether you like it or not, it’s one of them. People use it as a landmark. Moran: So speak to me though, you made mention earlier about theft in some of the earlier meetings we’ve had, you’ve indicated about there is certain product, of course, that just really isn’t conducive to theft. Would you be planning to clean up that – or re-arrange your inventory in some way in the front as a result of this project? Petitioner: Well, yeah, and I mentioned at the very beginning is that right now that wrought iron fence laying down is taking up a lot of room and also, there seems to be some problem here as far as that enclosed area where I poured the concrete slab and I had started to set up the pallet racking. It was on the north side of the house there. Okay. Moran: Okay. Petitioner: I stopped that because I thought if you guys make me take that down, then I’ve wasted all my time moving all these bricks and stuff and different items and put on that pallet racking in a secured area, but then you’re going to say, well, Mr. Martin, we want you to take the fencing down now that you’ve got everything there. And so, I figured well, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 58 of 85 March 22, 2011 why do that, just show up at the meeting and tell you what my plans are as far as moving it. Moran: All right. What I’m hearing from you though if you were to get this package approved as it’s presented the inventory in the front yard some of it would remain but a substantial portion of it would probably be placed in a more secure area? Petitioner: Oh, yeah, it has to be because like I say -- Moran: Okay. Petitioner: And every – and I’ll be honest with you guys – every time I go over there and there’s something gone, I think of you guys. Moran: And then with respect to this pallet area that you’re securing, just curious why did you – why do you put a wrought iron on Grantland there, why didn’t you just extend the white fence out to the - because again we’ve got the height variance, the step down like we heard earlier this evening. Would that not just be white fence? Petitioner: Well, I didn’t want to create too much of a blind spot to be quite honest with you because that’s right next to the sidewalk. Moran: Yeah, but it’s a continuation of what you have for a hundred feet or some much number 80-ft. I don’t know. Petitioner: That little blue section there that butts into the – Moran: You know what, I’m sorry, I’m looking at the old diagram when I made that comment. Let me see if my question is still valid. Petitioner: You know, I should have picked it up because when you said pink and I’m looking at Mr. Pastor, he’s looking at the wrong one also. Moran: I apologize. Pastor: I’m looking at the right one. I got both, I got all three of them. Petitioner: Okay. Moran: Okay, so that would just be along Grantland you’re looking at, I guess you showed it, 15 and a half feet. Petitioner: That’s correct. Moran: Of wrought iron. Petitioner: Yes, and the reason I did that is not to create a blind spot there. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 59 of 85 March 22, 2011 Moran: Again, I’m going to – in the interest of moving this forward, I appreciate that you have made some modifications from some of the problems that I had earlier. Taking these comments into consideration, I’m okay with some give and take here. I’m just a little bit hung up with the parking lot, but other than that, I think we made a lot of progress. Last comment that I would like to make and then I’ll surrender the floor is, Mr. Banko and Mr. Fisher, it seems to me that there’s still a lot of other issues outstanding on this property, but I’d like to address this evening how those are going to be handled, but with respect to the fence those are my comments. Petitioner: Can I make a comment there, Mr. Chairman? Henzi: Well, he’s asked a question so let’s hear the answer and then you can continue. Banko: As you well know and it’s in front of you, there’s a list of outstanding violations at the 12275 property. One of which is the expansion of the parking lot that we’re all discussing here tonight which is a gravel area which if you go back to the Planning Commission drawing back in 1989 that shows that all to be landscaped and hedges to be along Arcola, all of which has been removed and the parking lot has been expanded and Mr. Martin is now parking his truck and his trailer out in that area which is also in violation with the ordinance. The other points that need to be made behind that beautiful while fence that’s illegally erected, a lot of debris behind that fence that needs to be dealt with. Obviously, that was a concern, not only for Mr. Martin, but also the occupant of the property back in 1990 when they came before the Board for the privacy fence and regarding the parking lot at that time. There was a lot of debris back there then, there’s a lot of debris there now that needs to be maintained for the health and safety of the residents of the City of Livonia. Needless to say, we can’t get on the property to do any other inspections because Mr. Martin won’t allow us on to the property do an inspection. Hopefully, I have answered your question somewhat. Moran: Thank you. I think you’re moving us forward. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Petitioner: Mr. Chair, can I make a comment now? Henzi: Go ahead. Petitioner: As far as parking area, this has been discussed one other time and it’s in the minutes there. Another city inspector said that it wasn’t a problem because it was zoned “P” for parking. Mr. Banko is saying I expanded the parking lot. I did not expand the parking lot. The parking lot is asphalt. It’s been asphalt. It’s been striped. Don’t get that confused a parking lot with a parking area, that other part is zoned “P” for parking. When I was here one other time and that issue was brought up in the minutes, you got the guy’s name, but if you look it’s in there some place. He said it wasn’t an issue due to the longevity of it being like that and that it was zoned “P” for parking. It wasn’t an issue. Mr. Banko, and I will mention this also, I’m in court on this property and others. Signed out an affidavit at one time, what happened in court is that Mr. Banko along with Mr. Tom Bok from Ordinance Enforcement were telling Michael Fisher right here to ask for jail time for me because we’ve got to get these rats out of the City. Now I’ve been in Livonia since 1952 and what this is with Mr. Banko is this is nothing more than a vendetta and that’s City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 60 of 85 March 22, 2011 why I’m mentioning that now is that I’ve tried to fix this property up since the day I bought the place. And yes as far as the Ordinance Enforcement showing up, yeah, I’ve had Mr. Banko rush at me where I’ve had to back up so that he didn’t bump into me. So, yeah, I think that at times that there is some bullying that goes on. I let them on my property when they have a court order and at times they’ve sought court orders, but willingly I don’t think it’s required. Banko: To the Chair. Henzi: Mr. Banko. Banko: I believe you swore Mr. Martin in at the beginning of this meeting to speak the truth – Petitioner: It’s exactly the truth, Chair. Banko: I will tell you that he is not speaking the truth. Petitioner: That is exactly the truth, Chairman. Henzi: Let’s move on. Any other questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Mr. Martin. Petitioner: Yes. Pastor: You claimed that the new wrought iron fence is only 6-ft. 10. I appreciate you bringing that up. I will also bring up the point that the wood fence is 6-ft. 7 off the ground, not 6-ft. as you claim. Petitioner: No, now let’s -- Pastor: I took a tape measure today to it. Now there is one spot that was 6-ft. 1 that happened to be by the gate, but consistently 6-ft – between 6-ft. 5 and 6-ft. 7 all the way down that fence. I must have taken seven or eight measurements. Petitioner: Can I respond? Pastor: Sure. Petitioner: Just as the first case that was discussed, there is a height, something off the ground, okay, and then there’s the length of the wooden slats itself. Okay. And so, yes, the fencing when you buy it, that’s what it is 6-ft. in height. Okay. Eight foot sections. I think we have a requirement, I think it’s a minimum of two inches, it could be four inches City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 61 of 85 March 22, 2011 off the ground, but there is a minimum on it. Okay. And you brought it up one other time, you thought I had it too high there on Grantland and you mentioned that you could crawl under it as a kid or something. I actually lowered that down. Okay. If you think that it needs to be even lower yet, I would say one of the reasons for that is to get the weed whipper under there, but I think it looks fine the way it is. I’ve got a tremendous amount of work over there already lined up even if you guys approve this plan and now you’re wanting me to take all the fencing along Grantland and bring it down lower to the ground? Pastor: Well, Mr. Martin, if you had gotten permission at the beginning of this process instead of putting it up before hand, you would have known these things, but you decided to do that not me. Petitioner: I never dreamed, okay, that I would have been stalled as long as I had and having people steal stuff from me, I had to put it up, okay? That’s the way I’m looking at it. Is it better than what was there? Sure. Nobody can deny that. It’s better than what was there. Pastor: I will respond to your accusation that we stalled you, but you’re the one – we brought you back here. You would have never came back unless we had brought you back. Petitioner: I don’t think you brought me back to be honest. Pastor: Okay. Give me a reason why you want to add additional fencing to the front yard when it’s not allowed. References by the opening where you say you poured that slab. Petitioner: Right. Pastor: You’re extending that 15-ft. 6 inches out and then coming across the front of the house. Petitioner: Yes. Pastor: And the joining the fence – or approximately where the fence is existing? I mean, you know, we’re not supposed to allow that. Now, the other part is grandfathered in we understand that. Why would you be allowed to do more of something that we don’t allow? Petitioner: Well, that was brought up one other time also and I think that was Mr. Harb, but yeah not wanting the front porch to be enclosed, was that you? I don’t know, but any way besides the garage being broken into and the front of the property being jumped over the fence, on the north side of the house there a window was broken, I do set some items on the front porch there’s two big picture windows and a door. On the front of the house there that faces Inkster Road, I just thought for security it would be nice just to enclose that whole thing, have it open the gate there when you’re open for business. The evenings that I am there many times I get, knock, knock, knock, like this on the door. Okay. Hello. I’m closed but yet they know I’m there so they keep knocking until I answer the door, come on out, and then they will try and talk me into – can we just look around and buy something maybe from you. So, by enclosing the porch you can’t get to the front City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 62 of 85 March 22, 2011 door, knock, knock, knock, knocking on the door. It’s open during business hours. Yes, it is grandfathered in also as far as a residence. Okay. I just thought it secures the front of the house and keeps people aware of actually when I’m open for business. So, I thought that that – once again I put things in that area on the front porch. It’s part of the open air display. So, I thought that that made sense. Pastor: And the reason you want a 7-ft. fence is, I’m still not clear on that other than you already have it. You said H.A. Smith across the street has a fence, but that’s about 6-ft. if I – no, it’s 5-ft. Petitioner: That’s Smede and Son. Pastor: Smede and Son, I’m sorry. I think their fence is 5-ft. Petitioner: You know what, I didn’t go over and measure it. Pastor: I do know it’s not 7-ft. Petitioner: But I can tell you that we even have residential areas in Livonia that have 6-ft. wrought iron on a corner lot in a residential area. Ann Arbor Road and Bassett, okay, on the south side of Ann Arbor Road. Pastor: But you’re asking for seven. Petitioner: Well, that’s because I’m C-1 over there. I’m not technically an R-1. Pastor: So, why are you bringing up another property that’s not the same as yours? Petitioner: Well, I’m just trying to show you that in an R-1 area that 6-ft. is acceptable. This is a C-1 area and a “P” area for parking. Okay. And I think 6-ft. 10 inches without having me rework and re-invent the wheel and try and cut this stuff down seems pretty reasonable. Yes, I got a good deal on the fence. Okay. If I took the good deal that I had and figured out the five years that I had 12 to 14 hundred dollars stolen every year or every season, I should say, that probably doesn’t come out to be a good deal if you do the math. It would have been easier for me probably to have bought a 6-ft. at the very beginning. Okay. But I never realized that I would have this type of discussion to be honest with you because I thought Livonia was business friendly. I hear that a lot. Pastor: That will be all for right now. Henzi: Any other questions? Harb: I want to talk about the -- Henzi: Go ahead. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 63 of 85 March 22, 2011 Harb: Mr. Chair, about the back parking lot again and I then I want to get to the front. That area of parking lot, you know, that 36 by 26 rectangle that’s next to your house on 12420 Arcola. Petitioner: Yeah, the area that is zoned “P” for parking there. Harb: Right, now – no, back in 2007 there was a planning commission that approved, you know, parking in a landscape plan for quick, greet, and sales. Petitioner: You just said back in 2007, I owned the property in 2007. Banko: 1989. Harb: ’89, okay. I was looking at this that said 2007. This right here, that’s where I came up with 2007 -- Pastor: -- case number, someone crossed it off. Harb: Parking, landscape plan approved by City Planning on 10/3/89 for previous owner 2007,6/29/2007. Now, it seems to me that was never intended – here’s my issue, that I have a problem with, is that you may not own that house on 12420 Arcola and to have, you know, anybody to be able to park – anyone who owns this business to be able to park right next to the door, I think it is unfair. It may not be unfair to you because you own the house right now, but 10 years from now if you don’t own the house, I think it would be totally unfair. I think something needs to be back here some kind of separation that would allow for this to be more residential looking rather than, you know, a parking lot especially right next to a front door of a house. Okay. So, we’re not just dealing with you at this moment in time, we’re dealing with the future as well. I have an issue with that. Okay. I will not approve this plan especially in that parking lot as it is right now. Now, let’s go to the front of the house. Petitioner: Can I make a comment to that? Harb: No. The front of the house, all right, so you do have this – you want to basically put a slab up, did you put the slab in already next to the front porch? Petitioner: Did you drive by this property? Harb: Yes, I did. Okay. Many times. Now the front porch if I’m not mistaken is 12 feet from the front of the house and then you want to have an extra 3.6, three and a half feet basically to enclose that area. Now, does that really other than people wanting to walk to the front door like any other business to be able to see if the door is open, is there any other reason other than that why you want to put wrought iron fence where previous years you basically had it up to the side of the house, three years ago or four years ago when you were here. Now, you basically have that. Can you address that again? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 64 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: Sure. I poured that slab. I want to enclose that area. As far as, you know, is there any other reason other than people knocking at the door, I did mention that it’s to protect the house. Harb: So you’ve got – all right so -- Petitioner: And to protect the merchandise that is on the front porch. So, there’s actually there were three reasons knocking on the door just happened to be one of them. Harb: But you have stuff, merchandize in front of the cyclone fence that you’ve always had. I don’t know if when you closed it you actually move it or you just keep it over night. I don’t know what you do with that, but you always have merchandise in front; right? Petitioner: It’s part of an open air display. Harb: So, having a slab you can put stuff on a slab just like you can put stuff on grass it’s still an open air display; right? Petitioner: I thought the slab was better to put things on there than the grass. Harb: Okay. Petitioner: Actually when you put this stuff – to get back to you – when you put this stuff on any, anything other than asphalt, a patio stone, another piece of concrete, a wooden deck, you put it on the bear ground here’s what happens, constantly draws moisture out of the ground and the bottom deteriorates. Harb: I can understand that. Petitioner: So, I thought hey, let me pour this slab, okay, looks good, enclose that, it protects the front of the house, and it protects the merchandise. Harb: I’m not convinced that you need to enclose it. I don’t care if you have a slab there or not, I haven’t heard a real reason -- Petitioner: Well, there would be no point in having the slab there then if I couldn’t enclose it. I mean, that was the idea of -- Harb: You just said that it’s better to have merchandise on a slab than on grass than on grass because moisture. Petitioner: Yes. Harb: So, there was a reason and -- Petitioner: But also it was to enclose it to put the merchandise there. Harb: That’s it for now. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 65 of 85 March 22, 2011 Henzi: Any other questions? I had one more Mr. Martin. You proposed to erect 24-ft. of wrought iron towards the front of the house – I’m sorry – toward the front of the property but along the corner side yard, but the white wooden fence that exists there now -- Petitioner: Where are we looking at again? I have update written on the edge of the newest one. Aloe: That’s the old one. Petitioner: I have update written on the edge. Moran: I made the same mistake earlier. Henzi: Never mind, I’ll withdraw the question. Any other questions? Moran: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Moran: I’ve learned a lot this evening, but one thing that mystifies me a little bit here is kind of an elephant in the room for me. You have these pictures that show that the property is as I said to the last gentlemen, it looks like hell. What’s going on with the City, Mike – Petitioner: What pictures are you looking at there? Moran: What is the significance of this fence with respect to the condition of the property regardless of whether this fence is there, approved, unapproved, how are these two events, if you will, tied together? Fisher: Well, possibly the most obvious way that they’re tied together is that if you grant him a variance on the fence you could condition it on cleaning up whatever you find objectionable to the property as it’s currently kept. Apart from that, it’s not obvious to me that there is a connection between the two. The fence happens to be a case that’s before the ZBA, you don’t typically get debris cases before the ZBA because we figure, partly because we figure no one is going to get a variance to keep the mounds of debris on their property. Moran: That’s kind of where I’m hung up is that it seems to me what we decide here is other than, you know, I also believe that citizens be they corporate or private should be good citizens and when you’re asking for the City for certain accommodations there should be a little quid pro quo, but absent my feelings on that it seems to me that a person has a duty to maintain their property in accordance with the ordinance and that’s independent of any fencing variances that may or may not be granted. Fisher: And that’s why I said it’s not entirely independent because -- Moran: We could condition it. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 66 of 85 March 22, 2011 Fisher: You could use it as a condition. Moran: And I believe we would Fisher: But in addition to that you’ll see Mr. Banko has issued some violations on this topic and presumably if Mr. Martin does not clean up whatever those violations are and I personally have not gone to the property so I don’t know, but if he doesn’t clean up those violations, he could find himself in court on those just as he has on other violations. Moran: I’d be interested Mr. Martin if you have – is there a contention on these violations that you’ve been issued? Petitioner: Well, I would say this I’m not – I’d have to look at the pictures that you are looking at here. Are these – these are ones that I submitted as far as the property? Are these ones that the City has taken? I haven’t looked at this file. I didn’t look at it today. Moran: You’re pretty familiar with the property, are you not? You’ve been to it as you asked Mr. Harb? I don’t want this to deteriorate, but come on you’re very familiar with it, you know what it looks like. Petitioner: Well, I’m familiar with my property. I’m not familiar with what pictures you looking at. Moran: Pictures of your property. Petitioner: Are they showing the fence before I put the new fencing up? Moran: I have no issue with sharing this. Henzi: They’re dated March 11, 2011 and I don’t think his question is for you to verify the photos, just verify the condition of the property. Petitioner: Evidently they must be ones that Mr. Banko – are these – Banko: I did not take the pictures. They were taken by code enforcement officers, sir. Petitioner: Okay. Well, now, we’re getting the real thing. Banko: As you well know, they are outstanding violations on the property. Petitioner: I’m not aware that they are outstanding. I will say this though is that what – well, you can laugh if you want, but you’re an attorney. What we’re here tonight is to discuss the fencing. Okay. It’s a different branch of government entirely the Judicial and so that’s what that branch of government is for. I’m presumed innocent until I go to court, look at the pictures, and have a case. What you are doing now is you’re taking your position here and you’re saying, well, hey, listen. You want your fence, we’re going to make you do this. You’re exceeding your authority. That’s what you’re doing. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 67 of 85 March 22, 2011 Fisher: Mr. Chair, may I just respond? Henzi: Mr. Fisher. Fisher: In the first place, this is a quasi judicial body so it’s not an entirely separate branch of government. Appeal from this body goes straight to the Wayne County Circuit Court. In the second place, the Board has – every Zoning Board has the authority to reasonably condition grants of variance that it makes and part of it – those conditions are aimed at improving the health, safety and welfare of the general public including the aesthetics of the sites that the Board – that come before the Board. It happens all the time. It’s not Martin specific. It happens with everybody who comes before this Board if they have – if there are property maintenance problems the Board will take that into consideration and often times condition some sort of repair or clean up of those as part of any variance that’s granted. That’s not in excess of the Board’s authority and obviously you’ll have the opportunity if you want to to contest that in Circuit Court vis-a-vis any decision that comes out of this Board, but you’re not on solid legal footing at all. You’re talking about – well, that’s all I’ll say. Petitioner: Well, I’m looking at this as – this is what’s written up. This is why I am here, right here, what was sent out to everyone within 300-ft. and what was printed in the paper. Fisher: Well, and there’s no question that is what you’re here for. To the extent these other issues come up they come up they come up partly because, partly because they are pertinent to the discussion of your fencing and partly because the Board as I say looks at these properties holistically not just one piece at a time. Banko: To the Chair. Henzi: Mr. Banko. Banko: One of the outstanding violations is the fence in the side yard that was erected illegally. That’s one of the reasons we’re here. That is one of the violations we’re still dealing with three to four years later. That is one of the violations that Mr. Martin was found guilty of back in 2006. Moran: What are some of the other violations? Banko: Well, parking on the right of way, junk and debris on the property, there are other properties that are involved, there’s an adjacent property that had debris on it at 12420 Arcola which is adjacent to the property in question here regarding debris and some property maintenance and obviously those are pertinent to this case. Petitioner: They are not. They are separate addresses. They are not pertinent to this case. Moran: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 68 of 85 March 22, 2011 Henzi: Any other questions? Petitioner: Can I make a comment about 12420 Arcola the question that Mr. Harb had with something about whoever buys that house in the future and that we should think about a future owner of that house next to my parking area. I don’t think that has anything to do with it to be quite honest with you. I own that house and its here and now we’re talking about what is occurring and what I want to do with that house. Close proximity you can say to the parking area. It’s been like that and actually at one time I brought the photograph here to show you to some degree at one point this whole parking area was enclosed. It only became open and became a parking lot when Inkster Road was widened and eliminated the parking off street parking off of Inkster Road. That’s what developed this parking lot at the rear. Henzi: In what year? Petitioner: That I don’t know. But I can tell you I’ve talked with a lot of residents in that neighborhood that have been there a long time and they’ve told me Chris this whole area used to be enclosed with a 6-ft. privacy fence, this whole area here. Okay? And that was opened up moved inboard to create the parking lot. So, if you were to ask me, well, Chris you want to put up a fence there? Yeah, well I want to enclose it again. As far as me owning that house there next to it, hum, whoever buys that house in the future they’ll either – when I put a for sale sign up they will have to deal with it then. Either they will know that hey I want to buy this house and I realize that the parking is there or I don’t want to buy this house. To say, use the concept, well, we don’t want you to do that Mr. Martin. You currently own the house but let’s think of who is going to buy that house down the future – or in the future I should say. And think about them. I don’t think that should even enter into it. It’s like me saying, gee now that I bought this property here, why don’t you guys concern yourself with the fencing that’s falling down on the north side of Grantland. Henzi: I’ll tell you why because like I read at the beginning of the meeting, we talk about the City’s Master Plan and the City is very well planned and like Mr. Fisher said, we do view each property holistically and I think it’s appropriate to look at a property and examine does it fit within the plan and what’s it going to look like down the future. Petitioner: I think this is, to be honest with you, this is substantial improvement to that neighborhood over there. This is a white – this is a blue collar low income neighborhood. There are a lot of rentals over there. There’s a lot of theft. There are a lot of break-ins. That’s just the way it is and is it fencing that I need? Well, sure. And like I say, I sat out there and later on I’ll run a copy of the police reports and put them in the minutes here, or in the package here so that you do believe me. There’s a letter there also from the PRDA. This is something that I need. I sat out there trying to catch whoever this was on various occasions, dressed real warm with the warmest clothes I could find and a little heater out there and a sleeping bag over me. What business owner should have to do that? Sam, you’re shaking your head no. Well, no business owner should have to do that, right? Caramagno: I wouldn’t think so. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 69 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: Okay. Well, that’s why I need the fence, Sam, I really do. And as far as you – the first case that was in here, you know, you said to the guy that his fence looked, his property looked unfinished, the fence wasn’t done or whatever, you know, I’ll be honest with you and this goes back a couple years ago. On the western side of your property for 100-ft. all you have is no – you have no cyclone fence, no top railing, you just have posts coming out of the ground. It’s been like that for at least five years. Okay. It’s unfinished, but yet you just got on the first guy who was in here about having an unfinished fence. Now, how unprofessional or – you said it looked in poor taste. Actually I wrote it down. In poor taste and I’ll tell you what, I worked in factories the majority of my career. I would have zero credibility in a factory if I pulled that same thing that you did earlier to the first case that was in here. Fisher: Mr. Chair, I object to this. This is completely irrelevant to the case that’s before us. Petitioner: I’m trying to show my honesty here and that I don’t feel – Caramagno: It’s completely irrelevant. My business and my property is my business. How I bought it is how it may be. If I choose to do something with it, that’s my business. Petitioner: I understand. Caramagno: Now, if I – whether I agree or disagree with your proposal here tonight, you’ll hear about shortly. I’m listening to you make your case and you’re doing a lot of talking as you usually do. Are you making sense? Maybe some, maybe not, but you’ll hear my comments here. Don’t worry about my property. It seems like you’ve got plenty to worry about on your properties. Thanks. Petitioner: This property has – I’ve been making a constant improvement on this from the day I bought it. Henzi: I’m going to talk about the wrought iron fencing in the back. Petitioner: Sure. Henzi: I don’t disagree that you – or dispute that you probably have had some police reports, in fact, not probably that you have if you say that you have it’s been done, but every picture that I see and every time I go by the parking lot it looks pretty good and I’m looking at some photographs taken in March. I don’t even see footprints across the snow and so either you’re out there 10 times a day or there isn’t that much traffic. And I guess the point I’m trying to make is I would expect that parking lot there to be litter thrown there, kids ride their bikes and cut the corner and broken bottles especially during your off season. I don’t see it. And to put a 7-ft. high fence seems to me to be an overreaction or maybe not an overreaction, but you want to put it up because you got 7-ft. fence in the yard so, I’m just not convinced that you need any fence and if so, more than 4-ft. Petitioner: Well, let me just me address that who do you know that rollerblades and skateboards in the winter. Do you know anybody, I don’t. So when you look back there City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 70 of 85 March 22, 2011 and say, well, I don’t see anything right there now, Chris, well no that activity it takes place during the warm weather. Henzi: So, why don’t you just put the fence up in the spring and summer? Petitioner: Well, I – Henzi: I’m kidding. Petitioner: What type of portable fence could I put up? If you go back to people are in the parking lot that’s how my garage – they actually used a vehicle in the parking lot to use that to climb on to go over the wooden fence to get into the rear yard there of the property to get in the garage. If you just, you connect the dots along that way that would have never happened. They wouldn’t have been able to climb that wrought iron fence had it been up. That would never ever have happened. It just wouldn’t have. So is it overkill? I could say that about the parking lot of our court house, why the hell didn’t you put 5-ft. or 6-ft? They put seven. It’s the same thing Chairman that I got over there or want to put up. And here’s another thing about being in court, think about this now, even the wooden fencing, the wooden fencing that’s been sitting in the backyard there for four years anyway, along with this ornamental wrought iron fence, sure I’ve been written up for dumping absolutely. Dumping that fence, you think that makes sense? Dumping is something that you generally do at night on someone else’s property to get rid of asphalt, shingles or whatever okay. But to be charged with dumping I paid two grand for that wrought iron fence and I’m charged with dumping it because it’s on my property and I can’t get a permit to put the thing up so they’re referring to it as scrap metal. The fencing that I bought at Lowe’s and Home Depot all of a sudden now that I’m dumping on the property – well, no, you can laugh if you want some of you and I’ve been referred to here as a crazy, insane idiot by one of you got it right in the minutes. How professional is that? So yeah you guys can sit here and smirk at me some of you if you want to, but I’m being honest with you, I spent my career working in factories and nobody could have been treated like you guys are treating the average Joe who comes here – could never have happened in a factory, never. You guys have, Sam, you have zero credibility on this. Fisher: Again, I object. Henzi: Any other questions. Caramagno: Mr. Martin, that’s your opinion so is your opinion that you’re the average Joe. You’re hardly the average Joe, my friend. Petitioner: Well, I don’t know. I’ve been in charge of people and I’ve represented people in the UAW and they kind of thought that I was pretty damn fair with them. Henzi: Any other questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 71 of 85 March 22, 2011 Pastor: Mr. Banko, this extra parking area that we’ve been talking about that’s supposed to be landscaped, is there a violation on that right now? Banko: Yes, there is. It’s also an outstanding violation. Pastor: So if we gave him permission to put a fence up there, aren’t we taking the violation and basically crumbling it up and throwing it out? Banko: I don’t know then you’re dealing with the conditions and everything that were set forth by the Planning Commission and the Zoning Board of 1989 and 1990. Pastor: Mr. Fisher, to the my question would that effectively -- Petitioner: I never owned the property then. Fisher: Well, I don’t think that the permission to put up a fence today surrounding this property – I guess what I’d say is there is an outstanding violation -- Pastor: But it’s supposed to be landscaped – Fisher: This is a landscaped area. Pastor: I mean, you’ve got a landscaped area that he’s proposing to put a fence through. There are no bushes that someone has torn out, I don’t know who. I mean, if this is enforced he’d have to tear his fence down anyways. Fisher: Well, I guess to that I would say again you can condition any variance you give today on some degree of compliance with that site plan. You could require him to put landscaping in along the fence which might not be a bad idea anyway. Banko: You have to remember that that’s double frontage lot so that basically front yard on Arcola there and that’s one of the reasons that green belt and that landscaping was put in there adjacent to 12420 Arcola. Pastor: Thank you. Mr. Martin – Petitioner: I would like to point out that that is incorrect. I show this in front Audience Communication not too long ago at a Council Meeting. If you look at Inkster Road here Grantland and Arcola Street and you read the write up that says it’s a double frontage lot because it faces two streets that are basically what they’re saying. And so Mr. Banko or somebody has come up from Inspection saying well, we don’t want you putting a fence up in your front yard meaning that parking area which is really the rear yard. We don’t want you putting the fence up there. Oh, we don’t want you putting that fence up there because it’s the front yard. It’s never been the front yard. As a matter of fact when I showed this at Audience Communication John Pastor was nodding his head like this (nodding his head) and I think that means I agree with you. This yellow highlighted area here is one lot, one address, one tax I.D. number, there’s no curve cut back here coming off Arcola Street and as I tried to explain this was all enclosed at one time with a 6-ft. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 72 of 85 March 22, 2011 privacy here, the whole area. It’s the rear yard, okay. Now that I want to move this this way and enclose it now the Inspection Department is saying oh, hey, listen that’s your front yard also because it faces Arcola Street. That’s always been the rear yard. As a matter of fact that business was there and established before any of these homes on Arcola was even built, that first one that I own here -1958. So, there’s been a lot of misrepresentation let’s say okay. There are two sides to every story and as a matter of a good attorney will say there are actually three sides, one side, the other side, and the truth. But in this case there are two sides. I’m telling you that the Inspection Department is not being honest with you on this. Henzi: Well, I have to disagree because we routinely see double frontage lots and when it has – we’re using the word frontage, but basically when it touches two streets the Inspection Department calls that double frontage and follows the appropriate ordinance whether it’s this type of situation or if it’s the type of long narrow lot like in the Six and Middlebelt area where you’ve got a house in the front, barn in the rear and it’s clearly the rear yard the same rules are always followed by the Inspection Department in my experience on this Board. Fisher: And I can say this specific example if you go over here beside Kroger, that little subdivision there where Hillcrest Court comes in off Five Mile those properties that have frontage on Hillcrest Court and on Five Mile came in here for variances because although Five Mile is clearly the backyard in the sense, the colloquial sense of it’s behind your house, it nevertheless was treated as a front yard because it’s a double frontage lot the same as this situation. Petitioner: I would only say that that had been used as a non-conforming continuous before that ordinance was established. It’s non-conforming the lawful use of land. This was one lot before you even came up – the City did – with this double frontage lot ordinance and I pointed that out also at Audience Communication. So, yes, you’re right if it had not been something, the lot had not been in the same shape configuration whatever term you want to use prior to the ordinance then yeah they’d have double frontage lot. But if it had existed as a single lot one address, one tax I.D. number then that’s what it is. They came up with that ordinance after the fact so they can’t call it something that it isn’t. What it is is it’s the lawful use of land that’s a non-conforming use and it’s a continuation. That’s what it is. Henzi: Anything else? Pastor: Yes, Mr. Martin. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I’m sorry. This break in that you keep referring to is someone jumping over car, didn’t you create that yourself by parking the car against the fence? I mean for us to put another fence out there because you create a situation to allow someone to jump over your fence. I mean it’s a 6-ft. tall fence people don’t jump 6-ft. tall fences. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 73 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: You know this is the story that you hear every now and then. The good looking young woman who is walking down the street, she’s got her hair done really nice and she has nice make up on and she’s dressed nice and then maybe her skirt is a little too short and so she gets attacked. And then somebody says well you know if didn’t look so nice or didn’t do this or that you wouldn’t have been attacked. And basically that’s exactly what you’re saying right now, Craig, had you not parked your car in that area in the parking lot they wouldn’t have used it to jump over the fence which in turn they wouldn’t have broken into your garage which in turn they wouldn’t have stole your tools and so there you go. You parked in the wrong spot, Mr. Martin. It’s asinine. Pastor: As I think a 7-ft. fence is. Petitioner: Well, who put it up around the court house? Caramagno: I don’t know nor do I – Petitioner: I think it looks pretty good there. Caramagno: It doesn’t matter. Henzi: You should have sold them your fence. Petitioner: Well, I’ll tell you what had I known, had I known this as I stated earlier it would have been easier with all the theft that I had going on over the years okay. And no, but like I say and generally it’s just prior to another election you will hear how business friendly Livonia is okay. But really in order to survive that’s what I need here. I need this fence and as far as the Inspection Department continuing to look for things this has been ongoing. If you look hard enough, as I pointed out Sam’s property, I mean there’s at least eight things right off the top of my head that are wrong with his property from a 55 gallon burn barrel in the front yard, to his trailer in the front yard – Fisher: Your Honor, again I object this. Petitioner: I’m just saying – Fisher: I mean Mr. Chair, Your Honor, whatever. Petitioner: Don’t put me in a different category okay. Fisher: Just for the record I would add that the – although it’s probably obvious – the court does take in prisoners in that area that has the 7-ft. fence so if we needed to distinguish that property that’s the distinction. Petitioner: It is also used for the parking of the court employees. Banko: It’s also zoned public land. Pastor: Evidently it’s within our ordinance because we didn’t hear the case. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 74 of 85 March 22, 2011 Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none is there anybody in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? I see no one wanting to come forward so can you read the letters please. Caramagno: Daniel Dwyer [12250 Inkster Rd.] approval (letter read). Approval from Jim Hynes [12241 Inkster Rd.] (letter read). We have an approval from James Mulcahy [12400 Arcola] (letter read) Michael Murray [12380 Arcola] approval (letter read). An approval from Mile Ristovski [12350 Inskter Rd.] (letter read). Petitioner: Mr. Chairman, I have this letter here from PRDA if Sam wants to read it into the record please. Henzi: Yes, I was just going to ask for that. Petitioner: Okay. Henzi: I was going to say I was disappointed that we didn’t have any letters from you with your other property addresses. I look forward to those. Petitioner: Some of them were entertaining I will admit. But I think this is important for the record. Caramagno: Plymouth Road Development Association (letter read). Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Mr. Martin, that letter says as long it complies with our ordinances. You’re asking for something different. Petitioner: I quizzed them on that and here’s what they meant by some of that. They were unaware like – let’s take something simple. How deep are the fence posts supposed to be placed in the ground, things like that? They didn’t know any of that so they were saying whatever it takes for you to comply with putting the thing up and – Pastor: If that were the case they could have said with a 7-ft. fence or even referred to a plan that you had presented them. We don’t know if this is the same plan that you presented them a year ago. As you just said, this is a recent plan. As a matter fact, you said this is your new plan or whatever the date is on that. Petitioner: There is no date on it. I can tell you this that you could say the same thing then about the letter that is in there that has not been read except I think from the very first time from Dan West from the Chamber of Commerce. Dan would look at this thing and I could tell you today and he’d say so you put a fence here, you put a gate here whatever, but it’s still the same concept okay. The same thing with Jeff Bryant. Jeff’s not around anymore, but, another thing too on those other letters and I think this is important because I do believe that at times the Petitioner will go around and they’ll try and circle City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 75 of 85 March 22, 2011 the wagons. Let me get some help from people. All those letters came from their heart. I didn’t ask one person in my neighborhood that I saw. I didn’t (knock, knock, knock, knock) on anyone’s door okay. That’s something that they choose to do when they received that letter within 300-ft. of my property. And so when some of you say hey is he different from someone else? All I can tell you is that I always attempt to be fair with people and I sit at these meetings okay whether it’s something that’s involving me or others okay. And I think at times that you’re not fair. I really do. And yes, if I was Steve Banko and got a bug up my butt, I could go to all of your houses and write up citations for you on different things. I really could. Pastor: Mr. Martin, we all know you visited all of our houses so thank you. Petitioner: Well, I’ve been to your business over there George Pastor and Son. I’m telling you don’t make reference to my property until you look in your own backyard over there. It’s quite the site. Another thing too is that all those bushes that you put up doesn’t keep anybody out of your property. This keeps people out. This is something that I need to stay as business there okay. I can’t have people stealing from me. And I know that if I would have gotten engaged with somebody over there okay and I know the type of person that I am, I know myself pretty well, is I would have hurt somebody over there if I have caught who they were. And then I’d be in court. All right? I’d be a bad man. I hurt somebody who was stealing something from me. Caramagno: Or get hurt yourself and you should be careful. Petitioner: No, Sam, you don’t know me. Henzi: Anything else? Petitioner: I would hope that you take everything into consideration. Like I say, I read some of those minutes where some of you didn’t want me to notified, you wanted my – didn’t want to give me an opportunity to be here. Let’s untable it and deny it right now. That’s in the minutes there Moran: That’s not accurate, come on. Petitioner: Oh, no, it is. Moran: It’s not. I’m not going to debate it with you. It’s not. Petitioner: It absolutely is. Moran: There was some conversation but you were always given the opportunity to be present or not. Petitioner: We’re on the record here still. Moran: This is not pertinent to helping me make a decision. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 76 of 85 March 22, 2011 Petitioner: You actually said and I got the quote, basically skip notifying him. I’m tired of him making a farce of our system. So, now you’re saying well, yeah, he’s here we always let him talk. No, actually you wanted to deny me the opportunity. Henzi: Is that it? Petitioner: That’s it. I know I haven’t made very many friends here this evening, but you know what, I’m honest and when I leave this building I’ll have no regrets because I told you guys just the hell how it was. Henzi: Okay. Thank you. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Okay. Well, I’ve driven by your property as well and I think the first thing I see there is more than a monument yard it appears to me that it’s a junk yard. Okay. Petitioner: Well, thank you. Caramagno: Now, I know that your issue here is theft and you’ve said that before and we’ve talked about that in detail in past meetings. You’re very matter of fact about a lot of things you say. Petitioner: I try to be honest. Caramagno: I’ll talk now. You’re matter of fact about a lot of things you say. You recite laws and you recite these things and others, but you’re still very, very general on the theft and the break-ins to your property they’re very, very general. Okay. I know that you’ve sworn under an oath of God -- Petitioner: No, I didn’t. Caramagno: -- that this is true. Petitioner: I swore an oath. Caramagno: You most certainly did. This was under an oath to God I heard today. Petitioner: I’m an atheist – it’s a different type of oath. Caramagno: You were very matter of fact with a lot of your issues and again very general on your need for this fence. I’m going to vote to deny the petition until all your violations are resolved. Then perhaps you can come back with a comprehensive realistic plan for what your needs are and then I would like to listen to it again. That’s where I stand. Henzi: Mr. Moran. Petitioner: In the interim, are you going to clean up your property? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 77 of 85 March 22, 2011 Henzi: Go ahead, Mr. Moran. Moran: I’m studying things here, but I would like to begin by recognizing the public portion is closed; right? Henzi: Right. Moran: Well, as I indicated earlier, I think some progress has been made in the last three years and I think Mr. Martin has taken into consideration many of our comments. I think it looks a lot better the way it’s currently enclosed and I think we’re moving along. I put a lot of - I put some weight to the PRDA input. I look at the spirit of what they’ve said because I don’t know how much the PRDA is familiar with the zoning ordinance. What I heard him say is that they reviewed the case, they’ve looked at the property, and subject to complying with our ordinance and any conditions the Zoning Board may feel we to need to – we will impose, they like the plan that they saw. They see it as an improvement and they like to see improvements. So, I take that into consideration as I make my comments this evening. Where I am is I could accept the front yard 7-ft. along Inkster, yes it abuts a residential area but I can accept that particularly if it helps clean up the property the open air display. If it helps it look more uniform or organized and still allows the business to display their wares, I’m fine with that. The parking lot – and the improvements along Grantland I’m okay with. The parking lot strikes me as a little bit of an overkill and an irony that we are going to put up a 7-ft. wrought iron fence so we need a variance to protect the variance that is being requested for the 6-ft. fence that’s in the side yard. I’d like to see a better solution there. There’s no doubt in my mind that people have used that unattended property for uses for which it is not intended, but again I just don’t think that it’s fair to the neighborhood because it has so much of a residential character to put a 7-ft. wrought iron fence along there so that people don’t scale a 6-ft. fence and I will grant Mr. Martin the obvious here that yes perhaps in that instance he caused the or allowed the people to access his property but I also recognize that resourceful people can get on their bicycle or park their own automobile there or whatever. So having a barrier there is not unreasonable to me. Some of the other things that were pertinent this evening that I heard was how the property was once configured before Mr. Martin owned it. There was a privacy fence there. I don’t think that’s relevant. What we’re trying to discuss is a little more like what Mr. Henzi brought up and that is the current condition and in anticipating future conditions for our City. The last thing I would like to say is I don’t know why it’s so difficult to get a resolution here. He repeatedly said this evening, I need this, yet there many, many things that you can do to help yourself get this. It’s not a one way street here. I can’t get comfortable with the condition of the property and the inspectors that have been out there and it isn’t just one person’s opinion it’s many peoples’ opinions and it’s my view of these pictures. So somehow or another before I can vote to accept a plan on this property I can’t do it in good conscious knowing that there’s many other open violations on it. So that’s where I am. In summary, I’ve made some progress. I can get comfortable with things. I’ve told everybody how I feel. I’ve got a problem with certain aspects of the plan that’s presented tonight and I can’t get comfortable with a property that is not being maintained to the City’s standards. Those are my comments. Henzi: Mr. Harb. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 78 of 85 March 22, 2011 Harb: I agree with a lot of what Terry said. I think that in the last three to four years there have been a lot of improvements. I believe that we should or I would recommend that we approve in part and deny in part. Again, to start with anywhere that there’s cyclone in the front of the property, I would be okay with replacing that with the 7-ft. black wrought iron fencing. I am also okay with the stockade fence, the plank fencing along Grantland. Okay. I am not okay with the wrought iron in the parking lot and I’m not okay with the 6-ft. stockade fence that’s – I’m not sure what you call it other than along the parking lot – this back area because it is inconsistent with the white fencing that’s along Grantland. I also would like to have some conditions. One condition is that we maintain a greenbelt in that 36-ft. by 26-ft. area that was supposed to be a greenbelt going back 20 years or more and that was the intention of the Planning Commission and Council at that time and I think that it would be very easy to make that a greenbelt for that one area. I would also look at other violations like cleaning up and removing all the trash and debris from the property and paying particular attention to miscellaneous debris, cease and desist parking vehicles in the public right-of-way and go forward. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I’m not in support of this plan whatsoever. I don’t believe a 7-ft. tall fence should be in the front yard of any business. I can get comfortable maybe with a five or six, but 6- ft. I don’t know about, but the 5-ft. yes. The stockade fence along the side of the property, it looks better but because I’m not in favor of this plan as it sits I won’t vote yes on anything. I don’t think we’ll have enough votes to draft an alternative here. Mr. Martin has several outstanding violations I think he has to take care of before we even approve something. I don’t want to step on another authority’s feet by approving something it may hinder them from doing what they’re suppose to do so I am not in favor of this at all. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: Well, my colleagues have said almost everything there was to be said, but I personally cannot feel comfortable in approving a Petition such of this nature with so many outstanding violations. I think that it’s like having a series of parking tickets built up and he’s just not paying them, just ignoring them and pretending they’re not there. The open violations that he’s got are there. You can’t ignore them and I don’t see why we can approve something and ignore all the violations. So, I will not be in support of this petition. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I heard the Petitioner state the case of theft as to why he needs these fences and I just want to say that we had a lot of trades people come before this Board same thing, theft, theft, theft, all the reason why we should allow commercial vehicles to be parked in subdivisions and I think we all felt no, that was something we were not going to allow because it would have a severe impact to the subdivisions by having all these commercial vehicles park there. So, theft alone is not a reason to grant a variance. So besides that, I think that granting this variance will do one thing and that will let Mr. Martin continue to maintain a junk yard and that’s exactly what it is because I’ve looked at these pictures. I looked through the slats of those fences I don’t see any retail material back City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 79 of 85 March 22, 2011 there at all none. What I saw was old cars, used building material, scrap metal and if you even just look at the front yard compared to what this was in 2007 to what it is 2009, this property has done nothing but deteriorate and deteriorate because the retail business is supposed to be there is not there any longer and improvement – the only improvement on that property is a painted white wooden fence. That is the only thing that is an improvement on that property. So, I absolutely will not vote for this. Henzi: I agree with a lot of points Mr. Harb made. I agree with many of the points many members made, but speaking to the front of the Inkster Road side of the property, I really don’t like a 7-ft. fence, but this is no slam to the Petitioner, but this is a unique Inkster Road fronting business and I don’t think that a 7-ft. fence detracts from what type of business is exhibited in the front yard. So, I think the proposal – I’ll go along with that. The Grantland side, the white fence, that looks much better than the first time around. My problem like last time is with the rear. I think Mr. Harb made a great point with suggesting a condition about the return of the greenbelt. I’m looking at the pictures from 2007 compared to now and I don’t think it’s an improvement the way that the rear of the property looks now compared to 2007. My concern has always been to try and blend this business with the residential neighborhood. I just don’t see compelling reason to alter the way that that neighborhood looks by constructing a 7-ft. wrought iron fence in the rear. And then lastly about the violations, if there is consensus for an approval I think that the violations should be cleared up and I’ll read one. Here’s a notice of violation. “Repair the holes on the detached garage exterior and maintain so as to be structurally sound and weather tight.” I don’t care what building you describe for me in Livonia, if you told me that the roof has holes and has to be enclosed so as to be structurally sound, I would say absolutely. Now there may be a dispute over whether that’s being done, but I certainly think that these are the types of things that we should condition to make sure that this property looks as good as it can. The floor is open for a motion. Petitioner: Mr. Chair, can I make one last comment, Chairman? Henzi: Are you offering to horse trade or – Petitioner: Well, no, I would just state that many of you talked about the area, the neighborhood whether it’s an improvement for it or compatible with the residential neighborhood or whatever. I will tell you this, those letters are what the people in the neighborhood think, not what you think. You don’t live there, they live there. That’s why I think those letters have a lot of weight to them. Those are blue collared people that took the time to write that. Henzi: The floor is open for a motion. Harb: Mr. Chair, I don’t want to make a motion right now I want to just have a little discussion if I may. Henzi: Sure. Harb: It seems to me that we should try to do something the last thing we want to do is table this, okay, because we know what’s going to happen if we table it. I believe that we City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 80 of 85 March 22, 2011 should approve some of this just to move it along and condition it with like the greenbelt area in the back because I really think that it would improve the quality of the property. If we deny it, the property is not going to look any better and we haven’t really accomplished anything. Pastor: I’ll say in the same affect, if you approve it, it doesn’t look any better. Harb: Well, to me -- Pastor: Because you’re talking about a fence you see through. Harb: To me having a black 7-ft. wrought iron fence would be more appealing aesthetically appealing than the cyclone – a 4-ft. cyclone fence especially right across the street from a company that has a black wrought iron fence. Petitioner: It’s a 5-ft. Harb: Okay. Now, he’s going to have to fix the rear and again we’re not saying anything about the rear of the property. We’re denying that, but we’re putting a condition on the approval that he has to create a greenbelt. If we don’t do that, then he’s never going to do it. Henzi: I agree. Harb: Anyway that’s my – Henzi: Yeah, I mean my thought was with respect to the front yard is that if this were within the states streets and somebody wanted to put this in the front yard or even the side yard, I think that our analysis would be a lot different than a 7-ft. black wrought iron fence decorative that looks decent in the pictures to me. Harb: Right. Henzi: It doesn’t seem so out of place along Inkster Road like he’s proposing, but that’s just my opinion. And I agree with you that I think it might be wiser to grant that with the condition with the greenbelt, but others don’t like it all so – Petitioner: I kind of need that area there where my truck and trailer is. I kind of need that area to park myself. The parking lot is there for my customers; that’s the area that I park. It’s kind of important to me. It’s zoned “P” for parking. Well, you’re talking about horse trading. I mean, I absolutely need that though. Caramagno: He doesn’t want any, Ken. You’re saying we would trade something for a greenbelt. He doesn’t want it any. He just told you. Harb: The point is how far do you need the trailer? I mean a trailer could be parked. You’ve got everything else in the – City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 81 of 85 March 22, 2011 Henzi: Inside. Petitioner: The trailer has basically been hooked on to my truck probably 90 percent of the time from when I bought that property. So, if you were to ask me why don’t you disconnect it, why don’t you hook it up? No, it’s always there seldom do I remove that trailer from the back end of that truck seldom. Harb: Just that there’s 32 feet that runs parallel to Grantland that you could actually park there which is the same 36 feet that you have along Arcola. It’s the same thing. Petitioner: I have parked on Grantland and they tell me that I’m parking illegally. I park in between the sidewalk – Harb: No, no, I’m saying that runs parallel in the parking lot that runs parallel to Grantland. It is 32 feet in the south side of the parking lot, but anyway I don’t have enough people to support me so I guess we need a denying – Henzi: Right. Aloe: Mr. Chair. Pastor: Can’t you make the proposal and vote on it and then even if it goes down, it goes down. You made an effort to get it through. Caramagno: I think Toni is going to make a resolution. Henzi: Yes, I understand your point, but it sounds like – Harb: I don’t understand why we won’t say that the white fence along Grantland is okay. Caramagno: Why it’s not okay with me? Harb: Yes. Caramagno: Because it’s harboring a junk yard. Aloe: And it’s the same reason why I won’t and it will continue forever. Caramagno: Harboring a junk yard. All there is is junk back there. Aloe: And that’s all you’re allowing him to do. Harb: Okay. All right. Aloe: There’s nothing for sale back there. Pastor: Look at his pictures. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 82 of 85 March 22, 2011 Banko: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Banko. Banko: If I could just make a point. The only part of that fence that is in violation is in the corner side yard. So that fence from the front of the house to the back of the house along Grantland is the illegal fence. The rest of that privacy fence that’s up along there is legal privacy fence. Pastor: Well, it’s not legal if they haven’t got a variance. Harb: It’s supposed to be 4-ft though not six or seven. Pastor: If it doesn’t have a variance, it’s not legal. Has it had a variance in the past? Banko: I think in – what was granted in 19 – what was it, 1990? It’s in your packet. Pastor: I don’t know. Henzi: Right, Steve, you’re saying the corner side yard is only from rear of the house towards the front. Banko: That is correct. Henzi: That’s the corner side yard. Banko: That’s what the outstanding violation that’s written now that’s outstanding. Harb: Are we talking about 24 feet? Banko: It’s probably more than 24 feet. It’s probably about 30 some, 40 feet. He added to it in the last year that now comes all the way to the front of the house. It’s approximately where the gate opens up. Pastor: Okay. That’s what I thought. Harb: Okay. So, you’re talking about 54 feet. Pastor: Give or take. Banko: So, that’s the part that we’re talking about. Pastor. On the violation. Banko: That’s the part that was illegally erected when all this started. Harb: On Grantland. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 83 of 85 March 22, 2011 Banko: Yes, sir. Harb: Okay. Henzi: I really don’t have a problem with that because if he’s denied, he’s going to take it down and it’s going to look worse because you can see it and then it’s not going to match what exists. That’s my thought process. Caramagno: Yes, but if you don’t deny it, are you going to approve everything else? I think you can do this one time, one approval for whatever we approve. You don’t keep coming back 10 more times. Henzi: No, I understand that. I was just saying that with respect to the side yard I thought that that portion of Grantland along with the rest was fine by me. To restate my position, I guess I would go along with wrought iron in the front the 24, 54-ft. of wooden fence on that corner side yard. Petitioner: So, let me see if I got it right. You’re saying my white fence on Grantland is okay? Fisher: He’s proposing to – the Chairman would support a resolution that would grant you a variance for the wrought iron fence in front and the 6-ft on the side along Grantland. Petitioner: So, the only thing that you don’t like, Mr. Chairman, is the area that is zoned “P” for parking. You don’t like that 7-ft. wrought iron fence. Fisher: Well, anyway, that’s what he said, Chris. Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Go ahead, Mrs. Aloe. Upon Motion by Aloe, supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2007-06-29 (Rescheduled from February 1, 2011 due to inclement weather): Christopher Martin, 12275 Inkster, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to maintain a 6-ft. tall wooden privacy fence within the corner side yard, which is not allowed, and a portion of this fence is even to the front house line of 12420 Arcola, which is also not allowed. Privacy fences must not be within the side yard. Proposed is to erect a 7-ft. tall black wrought iron fence, which is excess in height, within both the front yard setbacks of a double frontage lot, which is not allowed. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 84 of 85 March 22, 2011 Wrought Iron/Chain-link Fence Height Allowed: 4 ft. Proposed: 7 ft. and 6 ft. (respectively) Excess: 3 ft. and 2 ft. (respectively) The property is located on the west side of Inkster (12275) between Grantland and Capitol be denied because the Petitioner has not demonstrated to the Board that a practical difficulty exists because the practical difficulty the Petitioner has proposed is theft when in reality the problem is the maintenance of his property. Henzi: Go ahead. Harb: I wanted to just ask Mike a question. What would we accomplish – what would be the next steps by the City if this was denied? Fisher: Well, I think the Inspection Department will instruct Mr. Martin to take down the non-conforming fence that’s there and they will not grant him a permit for the portion that he seeking. Harb: So, that 54-ft. fence will have to then be a 4-ft. fence if he wanted to maintain a fence? Fisher: I guess that’s within the discretion of the Inspection Department how they go about enforcing that probably the principle consequence of a denial is he doesn’t get the permit to put up the 7-ft fence. Harb: It’s better looking than what’s there now in the front anyway. Aloe: That’s not the question of what’s better looking. The question is that by allowing him to do all this fencing, you’re allowing him to hide behind the fence and continue to maintain his property. No business owner with any sense of pride has a business and maintains their property fence no fence, theft, no – this is just hiding behind a fence and that’s why I’ve offered a denying resolution because this has to stop. The Building Department needs to go over there. They need to enforce these violations and this property needs to be cleaned up it’s a rat hole and it extends on to Arcola. And you can see from the pictures of the property on the street behind it’s just a continuation of junk, garbage. Petitioner: I object to that, Chairman. The same woman referred to me as a crazy insane idiot in one of the minutes and now she’s – Pastor: Mr. Chairman, the public – Henzi: Yes, the public portion is closed. We’re about to vote. Aloe: Then why are we even doing this? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 85 of 85 March 22, 2011 Henzi: Is there any other discussion? Please call the roll. Fisher: Is there a second? Henzi: Yes, there was, Mr. Pastor. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Aloe, Pastor, Caramagno, Sills NAYS: Harb, Moran, Henzi There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned at 11:10 p.m. _________________________ SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary _________________________ MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman /hdb