HomeMy WebLinkAbout06-07-11
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 39 June 7, 2011
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
CITY OF LIVONIA
MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING HELD JUNE 7, 2011
MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman
Terry Moran, Vice Chairman
Sam Caramagno, Secretary
Toni Aloe
Robert Sills
Ken Harb
Craig Pastor
MEMBERS ABSENT: None
OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney
Dennis DeMeyer, City Inspector
Helen Mininni, Court Reporter
The meeting was called to order at 7:01 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules
of Procedure to those interested parties. Each Petitioner must give their name and
address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are
made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that
appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The
decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following
the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four
decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or
to table for further information. Each Petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7)
member Board. Seven (7) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if
anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary
then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each Petitioner indicated
their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all
interested parties within 300 feet, Petitioners and City Departments. There were 11
persons present in the audience.
______________________________________________________________________
(7:05 #1/68)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-25: Peter and Debbie Tschudi, 14153 Sunset, Livonia,
MI 48154, seeking to erect a 6-ft. tall privacy fence upon a corner lot resulting in
the privacy fence being in the side yard and the existing chain-link style fence not
removed resulting in a double fence, both conditions are not allowed, and the
privacy fence being excess in height.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 39 June 7, 2011
Fence Height
Allowed: 5 ft.
Proposed: 6 ft.
Excess: 1 ft.
The property is located on the west side of Sunset (14153) between Perth and Hubbell.
Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add to this case?
DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department?
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: The letter that we received from the Traffic Bureau regarding this being a safety
hazard, would that be after seeing this drawing with this diagonal on the fence?
Fisher: Yes, it would be after seeing the drawing.
Aloe: So even after seeing this they still write that it’s a hazard?
Fisher: Yes, bear in mind that drawing is not really drawn to scale and historically when
they did that cut out they would do it 10-ft. on each side in the middle of something
bigger. This one is smaller than those were because it’s only 11-ft. across the long side
which means it’s about 7-ft. on each of the other sides.
Aloe: Okay, thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? Okay. Hearing none, good evening, sir, can you tell us
your name and address?
Petitioner: Good evening. Peter Tschudi, 14153 Sunset Street, Livonia.
Henzi: Mr. Tschudi, why don’t you tell us why you want to construct the privacy fence?
Petitioner: As the name would imply for privacy of our backyard. We have a real
pleasant backyard, a lot of flowers and my wife and I enjoy spending time out there.
She’s not particularly comfortable in being on the corner lot like we are and being in full
view of traffic, passersby, most notably cars that might come and park on the street or
that have parked on the street with individuals just sitting in the car. It really results in
her not being, in her not spending any time out in our backyard. My patio is situated in
my yard, it’s only 15-ft. from the sidewalk so that as people are walking by the sidewalk
there is not a full yard between us and the other side. I would like, if I may, to mention
one thing about the letter that was sent out. There was a misunderstanding. This
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 39 June 7, 2011
indicates that we’ve asked for a variance to leave the existing fence and that did not
appear on our application and is not our plan at all to leave the existing fence. All of the
proposals that I’ve gotten from companies who are putting up the fence have given me
estimates with removal of the fence and taking away of the old chain-link. It’s also been
explained to both my adjacent neighbors that they understand that the fence is going to
be removed as well and that a privacy fence would be put in.
Henzi: Thank you. Anything else you want to say in general about your application?
Petitioner: If I could just get clarification about what was mentioned about the cut away?
Henzi: Yes, that was going to be my first question. There’s a May 11 letter in our packet
from Sergeant John Gibbs of the City Police Department’s Traffic Bureau.
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: And he writes that erecting a privacy fence would pose a hazard to pedestrian
and bicycle traffic on the sidewalk, basically saying, as you were to exit your driveway
that would cause a sight-line obstruction for kids on bikes or people walking along
Perth.
Petitioner: And one of the contractors brought that to my attention as a matter of fact
which is why I’ve indicated and perhaps it’s not to scale that I have that cut away on the
side of my driveway coming 10-ft. in from that sidewalk on the Perth side and then down
10-ft.
Henzi: All right. So the measurements on are 5-ft. and 11-ft. are noted on your
diagram. I know it’s not to scale but are those numbers correct what you’re proposing,
or do they state correctly what you’re proposing?
Petitioner: The 5-ft. section would be a gate, as you say.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: The 11-ft. section spans from the corner of my driveway and the sidewalk –
I’m sorry, the cut away would not go from the corner of my driveway and the sidewalk to
10-ft. back and then 10 ft. up my driveway. It’s indicated where the chain-link fence is
right now with the small x’s, the solid line being my proposed fence line.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: And it was my thought and discussion with him of course that that provided
an adequate line of sight for pedestrians, bicycles, vehicles, myself included of the
driveway.
Henzi: Did you obtain authorization or a signature from your neighbor on Hubbell
regarding the privacy fence? There’s a form that you can get at the Zoning Board Office
or the Building Department Office, I should say.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 39 June 7, 2011
Petitioner: Yes, not only my neighbor on Hubbell, but I also plan on getting one for the
other neighbor on the other side which I guess isn’t addressed in this situation, but yes,
I have a permission slip. As a matter of fact, she provided me – she didn’t send it in, but
she did provide me with – my understanding is that I didn’t need this until I had the
permit to have the permission.
Henzi: Is that a letter?
Petitioner: But I have her letter.
Henzi: Oh, okay. You can hand it around and then we’ll read it.
Petitioner: Okay. And then this is her authorization for the privacy fence behind us, I
mean, in line there in lot 36.
Henzi: How long have you lived there?
Petitioner: Two years now.
Henzi: Do you know how long the chain-link fence has been there?
Petitioner: The best guess by the contractors that I’ve had in is that it’s the original
fence.
Henzi: Thanks. Any questions for the Petitioner?
Sills: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: I can understand the privacy fence along the street, but I’m going to question why
would you want the privacy fence running along the back of your yard and also between
your adjacent neighbors on Sunset? Do they cause a problem with privacy?
Petitioner: They do not, as a matter of fact, the two widows that live adjacent to me are
just delightful women; however, we know that they won’t always be there. They’re both
in their late eighties and knowing whether or not their houses will sell when and if they
decide to vacate them, or the families, or the animals that may move in, we thought that
we would be able to enjoy our yard better if we had a privacy fence up there and our
friendly communications being done face-to-face around the corner as opposed to from
their patio over to our patio.
Sills: The City of Livonia takes a stand on isolating your home, you know, they compare
it to homes out in California where they put walls around everything and I can
understand the reason you want the privacy along the sidewalk there and the street
because this is kind of a common thing in Livonia having that privacy fence along the
street for a corner house, but going through the backyard and between the other
neighbors is a little bit different that’s why I’m questioning it.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 39 June 7, 2011
Petitioner: Uh-huh. And of course to the neighbor on the one side, it would only start
from the back of my house going back that portion where the front of our houses join
would not have such a privacy fence. It would only again be for the backyard.
Sills: Didn’t you anticipate any of this before you bought your house two years ago that
a corner lot would be exposed to traffic and pedestrians and things like that?
Petitioner: I guess I confess that until we were there and spending time in the yard –
no, that wasn’t a real consideration. It’s once we started experiencing the wonderful
garden that the previous owners had put in. We moved in in April and by May and June
we were just surrounded with, you know, wonderful foliage and flowers and we decided,
you know, this is very nice but then with the activity that we did see from time to time on
the street that’s when we became aware where we had some concern. May I clarify,
Mr. Sills, is there a zoning issue regarding the 6-ft. privacy fence in the back or on the
side?
Sills: I believe the ordinance says the fence should be 5-ft. high; correct me if I’m
wrong, Mike.
Petitioner: My understanding is that you’re correct for street side, but that a 6-ft. privacy
fence may put up if you have the permission of both owners - 6’4", I believe it says with
the supporting structure that you need to have permission from the adjacent neighbors
for that.
Fisher: Yes, he’s correct, “shall not exceed 6’4” in height measured from the surface of
the ground.” It’s only in the corner area that’s it’s limited to 5-ft.
Sills: Okay. I stand corrected. Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: There was a house across the street from you that came before us and you
notice that they have a 5-ft. fence with a 1-ft. lattice.
Petitioner: Yes.
Harb: And many of us Board members prefer that because of the fact it’s less of a
stockade look in the City especially inside neighborhoods rather than if it was on
Farmington or one of the major thoroughfares – the standard 6-ft. stockade style fence
is more acceptable. How do you feel about a 5-ft. with a 1-ft. lattice?
Petitioner: Debbie and I have discussed that and that we would consider that
acceptable.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 39 June 7, 2011
Harb: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: I’d like to say I appreciate that you consider that acceptable. I personally am a
proponent of those. I think it just really enhances the neighborhood and just that extra
foot makes a big difference in my mind for the appearance sake. I, like Mr. Harb, drove
past your neighbor across the street and took particular notice, if I were walking along
there and wanted to make a point of looking in their yard I could certainly look through
the lattice, but just driving by it’s kind of a blur and I think that would be nice. But my
question is have we resolved the angle here? You indicated that it was – I’m kind of
mixed up on this. Is the angle – we have a triangle, are the two legs of it 10-ft?
Petitioner: That’s correct.
Moran: So then the hypotenuse is more than 11-ft?
Fisher: It should be 16-ft, slightly more than 16-ft.
Moran: I would agree, but I just want to make sure the Petitioner is – so, sir, is there 15-
ft from your – the beginning of your fence including the gate apparently to the sidewalk
– is there 15-ft. of driveway there?
Petitioner: That’s correct.
Moran: Running north and south?
Petitioner: That’s correct.
Moran: Okay. So, your petition tonight is to bring it back near the 5-ft. gate and then
start the angle no sooner then 10-ft. if you will from the sidewalk and angle back a
minimum of 10-ft. to the west.
Petitioner: That’s correct.
Moran: Okay. And the hypotenuse will be whatever it is, but approximately 16-ft. as Mr.
Fisher said.
Petitioner: I take Mr. Fisher’s word for that.
Moran: Now, Mike or Dennis, although we don’t have a specific letter that’s pretty much
acceptable ordinarily, is it not to us as the City?
Fisher: Well, I know --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 39 June 7, 2011
Moran: Safety perspective?
Fisher: I know Sergeant Gibbs does not like that. That’s the formula that the Inspection
Department used to use so I think he would still object, but certainly the plan as it was
proposed or as it was written up, it’s obvious why he objected to that.
Moran: But speaking representing the City, you don’t have strong feelings for a safety
concern for us to approve this?
Fisher: Well, I regard my feelings as irrelevant and I think that Sergeant Gibbs is the
person that we contact for this purpose so.
Moran: But we haven’t contacted him with this.
Fisher: Well, it is true --
Moran: And you know his history.
Fisher: Yeah, it’s been revised since he saw it now based on tonight’s amendment.
Moran: I’d like to just say as long as it’s not irresponsible for this, you know, from my
perspective - from the City’s perspective, I’m fine with approving that I think the
Petitioner has a reasonable plan. I have no other questions.
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: Sir, again from the sidewalk to the garage door, is that 20-ft. approximately?
Petitioner: Yes, sir. From the sidewalk to the garage door, I believe that would be 20-ft.,
yes.
Moran: Well, I misunderstood.
Aloe: I thought he said 15.
Harb: Yeah, it would be 20-ft. It seems like it would be 10, 5 and 5.
Pastor: Right.
Harb: Is how I would look at that and when you park a car, an 18-ft. car in that area,
you’re almost sticking out to the sidewalk. When I drove by on Sunday, that’s basically
what I saw, is I saw a car in the driveway and, you know, walking by you’re definitely
going to see the car because there’s not much room. So to me an angle, 10-ft on the
two sides is, I believe, is going to be more than adequate in this house. Are you going
to have to remove the two trees or are you going to be able to save those trees do you
think?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 39 June 7, 2011
Petitioner: The ones on the easement?
Harb: Yeah, well, the one in the corner where the angle would be.
Petitioner: I have Lilac bushes there. I have four Lilac bushes within and, yes, the first
two Lilac bushes will have to be taken out in order to put in that cut away which does
not exist now.
Harb: Well, you could move them towards that open area as well though probably,
right?
Petitioner: Say again, please.
Harb: You could probably move those closer to the driveway into the sidewalk where
that triangle is on the outside of the fence rather than the inside.
Petitioner: I do plan to landscape that triangle there.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: To your landscaping, what type of landscaping do you plan on putting in? My
concern would be that if you put a tree or an arborvitae or something that grows tall,
you’re defeating the purpose --
Petitioner: I’ve got my obstruction right back again.
Pastor: Exactly.
Petitioner: Yes. No, and although I don’t have a plan to offer to you it would be
something in the way of small shrubbery or gardens, perennials as opposed to probably
annuals.
Pastor: Something that’s not going to grow over 2 l/2, 3-ft. tall.
Petitioner: Absolutely not.
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair, just one thing.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Ken, when I went by there I don’t know who owns the pick-up truck. Do
you own a pick-up truck?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 39 June 7, 2011
Petitioner: I do.
Caramagno: Okay. The pick-up truck, I saw the same thing you did. It was probably a
foot into the sidewalk parked there and it was pretty close to the garage door so I agree
with what you said about the visibility and it was backed in for easy visibility– it’s not like
you’re backing out of the driveway. If that’s typical and I don’t know maybe it is or isn’t
that you back in. That’s even more helpful for visual purposes. That’s all I’ve got.
Henzi: Anything else? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to
speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the table. I see no one coming
forward. Can you read the letters, please?
Caramagno: Rosemarie Foce at [14194 Hubbell] approval (letter read). Ruth Stevens
at [14206 Sunset] writes an approval (letter read). Gary Zajac at [14203 N. Livonia
Crescent] writes an approve (letter read).
Henzi: Mr. Tschudi, is there anything you’d like to say in closing?
Petitioner: No, sir.
Henzi: Okay.
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: Can I just get one clarification? Are we discussing the 6-ft. fence with 5- ft. with
a 1-ft. lattice or are we discussing the 6-ft. stockade style? What is your request at this
time?
Petitioner: May I consult? We kind of like the idea of conforming with the rest of the
neighborhood in having the 5-ft. with the 1-ft. lattice.
Moran: Thank you.
Henzi: Okay. I’m reading the specs about the type of fence you propose and it does
come in that style with the lattice accents.
Petitioner: Yes, it does. That’s correct.
Henzi: Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments
with Mr. Sills.
Sills: Is there a specific color that we’re going to have on this fence?
Petitioner: White.
Sills: It will be white.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 39 June 7, 2011
Petitioner: Yes, sir.
Sills: I think your plan is fine. I just found it just a little bit unusual to do a fence around
the circumference of the property, but I don’t see anything wrong with it – it’s just my
opinion that it’s a little bit different, but I can understand your reasoning for the privacy
and I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t approve this so I will be in support of your
Petition.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: I’ll be in support. I think the Petitioner has shown that he does have a hardship
being on a corner lot and wanting privacy so I will be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Yes, you’re here for a fence height issue tonight. I think you’ve given
some ground in that with the lattice and you seem to resolve the safety issue by going
10-ft. to the south and 10-ft. to the west on the angle that satisfies me as well.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: I’m in complete support. I’d like to stop for a moment and compliment you the
Petitioner on your presentation this evening, the thoroughness of it, your flexibility. I
particularly like your comment about trying to match the neighborhood. You already
have that other one in there and I just think this will fit in nicely. I think it will be a nice
improvement for the property.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: I’m also in approval.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I’ll be in support, but I would like to see an amendment that in that triangle area
that no growth over three feet. I’ll be in support.
Henzi: I too will support the request for a variance along with some of the conditions
suggested by other Board members. So, the floor is open for motion.
Upon Motion by Sills, supported by Harb:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-25: Peter and Debbie Tschudi, 14153
Sunset, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a 6-ft. tall privacy fence upon a
corner lot resulting in the privacy fence being in the side yard, which is not
allowed, and the privacy fence being excess in height.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 39 June 7, 2011
Fence Height
Allowed: 5 ft.
Proposed: 6 ft.
Excess: 1 ft.
The property is located on the west side of Sunset (14153) between Perth and Hubbell
be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because Petitioner’s fence will be
constructed with neighbors in mind and will conform with neighborhood
fences.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because he would lack the privacy that he is seeking.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and
in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the corner lot gets excessive
exposure to traffic from cars and pedestrians.
4. The Board received three (3) letters of approval and no letters of objection
from neighboring property owners.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or
objective of the Master Plan because the property is classified “Low-
density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is
not inconsistent with that classification.
FURTHER, this variance be granted with the following conditions:
1. That the fence will be 5-ft. tall with a 1-ft. lattice on top.
2. That the fence will be vinyl and white.
3. That the chain-link fence will be removed.
4. That the cut-away will be 10-ft. in each direction from the corner of the
driveway.
5. That the Petitioner must have approval from his neighbor at 14139 Sunset
regarding the privacy fence.
6. That the landscaping in the cut-away area can be no greater than 30
inches in height.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Sills, Harb, Aloe, Caramagno, Moran, Pastor, Henzi
NAYS: None
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 39 June 7, 2011
Henzi: Your variance is granted. I will read these conditions one more time. It is to be
a vinyl white 5-ft. high fence with a 1-ft. lattice top. You are to remove the chain-link
fence which is something you talked about doing anyway. The cut-away is to be 10-ft.
from the corner of the sidewalk and driveway as we discussed. You have to get the
approval from your neighbor at 14139 regarding the privacy fence and then the
landscaping in the cut-away area can be no greater than 30 inches in height. That was
it. Good luck.
Petitioner: Thank you very much. I’m not clear now as I go through now and get my
final plan, am I required now to have a 5-ft. fence on those other areas?
Fisher: No, you have the 5-ft. with 1-ft. of lattice all the way around.
Petitioner: I’m sorry. Yeah, that’s what I meant, yeah, okay. So, had I not requested
the 6-ft. on the side for a variance and I just went a straight 5-ft. then I would not have
needed permission to get a 6-ft. in the perimeter; is that right?
Fisher: Well, you would have, although it doesn’t say it here, you would have any way
because your plan showed your fence sticking into the sight line. Even if you changed
it, it sticks somewhat into the sight line between the garage and the street, so yes.
Petitioner: So, even at a 5-ft. I would have needed a variance?
Fisher: Yes, because of the location of the fence.
Petitioner: Okay, okay, just clarifying.
Henzi: Thank you.
Petitioner: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 39 June 7, 2011
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-27: Robert and Melanie Nofz, 31600 Curtis, Livonia, MI
48152, seeking to erect a detached garage resulting in excess number of
garages, garage height and garage area.
Number of Garages Detached Garage Height
Allowed: One Allowed: 16 ft.
Proposed: Two Proposed: 22 ft.
Excess: One Excess: 6 ft.
Garage Area
Allowed: 720 sq. ft.
Proposed: 1,309 sq. ft.
Existing: 584 sq. ft.
Excess: 589 sq. ft.
The property is located on the north side of Curtis (31600) between Merriman and west
end.
Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add on this case?
DeMeyer: I just want to bring attention to the plan. I’m just looking at the floor plan in
the west elevation, shouldn’t the west elevation read east elevation?
Pastor: No, it’s right. That’s right.
Petitioner: I think that’s correct.
DeMeyer: The way it’s proposed on the plot plan.
Pastor: Yes, that’s right.
DeMeyer: Okay.
Pastor: West is that way.
Henzi: Well, we will talk to the builder, he can confirm it. Any other questions for
Dennis?
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 39 June 7, 2011
Harb: Do we happen to know what other variances there were on this street?
Aloe: There was one for the horse lady.
Pastor: Yes.
DeMeyer: Yes, there was one in 2005 and a permit was issued for the horse farm.
Harb: How big was that?
DeMeyer: I don’t have the dimensions with me.
Henzi: Do you have the address?
DeMeyer: It was 31440.
Henzi: Okay, any other questions for Dennis? All right, good evening.
Petitioner: Good evening.
Henzi: Can you tell us your name and address, please?
Petitioner: My name is Robert Nofz and my address is 31600 Curtis.
Henzi: Mr. Nofz, go ahead and tell us why you want to construct a garage.
Petitioner: Actually the garage that I am proposing – I have six kids and just the amount
of storage that I need for bicycles, lawn furniture, you know, even a regular patio set,
eight chairs and a bigger table. I mean, I have a pool there as you can see on the
drawings. So, there is a lot of stuff that I need and even maintaining a yard that size it’s
almost 2 ½ acres there. I have a pretty large lawn mower and a lot of chainsaws and
stuff just to maintain the property. So, I need somewhere to store that stuff. I’d like to
keep it, you know, the gasoline and stuff like that out of the garage and out in that barn
in the back. So, it would offer me just a huge amount of storage space and it’s actually
going to be professionally done by Bongero Construction. I’m not doing it myself. They
are going to do all the work on it and I’ve seen other work that they have done and I’ve
thought that they have done a really good job on it. The barn actually where I got the
actual look of the barn is on Seven Mile Road between Merriman and Middlebelt on the
north side is actually – that’s the design of the barn that I actually chose, but there’s
other ones actually on Curtis that are similar also as well. I think there are five or six of
my neighbors that have one at least this big and some of them are almost twice as big.
Henzi: I’ve got a couple questions for you.
Petitioner: Sure.
Henzi: The proposed height is 22-ft. Are you going to have a loft?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 39 June 7, 2011
Petitioner: There is going to be storage above, yes, there will be a loft unfinished just a
floor for extra storage.
Henzi: How did you arrive at this size? Did you, you know say to yourself, I’ve got to
have “x” amount of square feet and this is how it was drawn up, or did you just copy the
one on Seven Mile?
Petitioner: Well, I went and looked at the one on Seven Mile and I saw it and then I
started figuring out how much, you know, what kind of space I needed for eight bicycles,
lawn furniture, pool equipment and that type of thing and just the one floor just wouldn’t
be enough. So, in order to build, you know, like one of my neighbor’s down the street
has one almost three times the size of that in length. I just didn’t want to do something
that large so I figured I’d limit the amount of area at least on the property and just go up
higher. And from the street because I’m on a ravine lot, the height, you probably won’t
even see just the very edge of the roof. I don’t even think you’d see it from the street.
My property drops down 12 to 15-ft. and then as the grade goes down so you won’t –
from street level which is even higher than, you know, where my house is you probably
wouldn’t even see much of the roof of the barn.
Henzi: Can you tell us about the building materials like for instance is this going to be
made to look like a barn sort of like the one on Seven Mile sort of that historic look or
are you just matching it to the house?
Petitioner: No, I’m matching it to the house. It’s going to be all sided, aluminum and
vinyl siding. There’s an addition that I put on my house in the rear. Mr. Caramagno
was out today and that’s what I showed him the type of siding that would be put on it.
So, it will be more of a not necessarily barn look more of like a garage/barn style.
Henzi: I saw that you have a golf cart is that something that you would also want to
store there?
Petitioner: Correct.
Henzi: Anything else that you can tell us about what you need to maintain the property
that requires that size?
Petitioner: Well, I have a Bobcat as well. In the back, there are trees that fall down
continuously as they grow and fall again. So, I have Bobcat which is one of the things –
that’s one of the reasons for the doors the way they are laid out is so I can store the
Bobcat in there and the lawn mower as well. So, it was kind of that whole bottom area
there with the golf cart, the Bobcat, and the lawn mower and then the upper level was
going to be for lawn furniture, bicycles and that type of thing.
Henzi: I know you heard the question brought up by Mr. DeMeyer about the west
elevation; that’s accurate?
Petitioner: Yeah, that’s correct. That’s accurate. So in other words, the barn will
actually be sideways. You’re thinking of garage where you drive in and drive in through
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 39 June 7, 2011
it, you know, from the property north and south, it will actually be – the main door will be
on the side.
Henzi: And then you’re going to have a door on the back.
Petitioner: Correct.
Henzi: Because you’re going to be –
Petitioner: So, in other words, you can drive the lawn mover –
Henzi: Because you want to use the Bobcat to get to the –
Petitioner: Exactly, out the back side and that way I didn’t have any doors – I was kind
of limiting the look of doors. Say that you were coming down into the backyard because
I don’t think you will see it from the street, but if you were to say to walk into my
backyard, you’re not looking right at the door. It looks more of like a, you know, home
type structure in the back.
Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: What kind of ceiling height are you going to have on the second floor?
Petitioner: Oh, I don’t’ know what the actual – I think it is 7-ft. 2.
Pastor: Okay. And what type of power are you going to install in this garage?
Petitioner: I’m just putting 110, very limited, just for lighting and that’s it. There will be
no saws or working equipment out there at all.
Pastor: Thank you.
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: I have a few questions. First of all, is your garage right now about 22 ½ x 26,
thereabouts?
Petitioner: Roughly, I don’t know exactly what it is.
Harb: All right. First of all, tell me about your house when you moved in, does it have a
basement? It’s a beautiful house, beautiful lot.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 39 June 7, 2011
Petitioner: I’ve put a lot of money into that home since I purchased it. It’s a long story
of that house of what I’ve went through for that house and I’m sure there are records in
the City of Livonia. To make a short story out of it, the day I closed on that home I was
sued for adverse possession which means my neighbor to the east sued me for 30-ft. of
the property and I had no idea that the property was even mine, you know, the day of
the closing because you have a mortgage survey. So, $60,000.00 later after that
lawsuit I find out that their driveway and all their fences, all their pool equipment, pet
cemetery, is all on my property. In the end I won, and I had to evict all of that stuff off of
my property. So really, she sued me and lost. And I didn’t even know it. If she would
have just left if alone, I would have had no idea of all that stuff. So, at that time, I was
putting in an addition. I put basically a 900-sq. ft. addition on the house while all this
stuff was going on, installed the pool, you know, new driveway, pretty much redid the
entire house. So, I would say I’ve got a full walk-out basement. I think the house is
roughly 2,800-sq. feet I would guess.
Harb: So, you utilize your basement then because it is a walk-out.
Petitioner: Oh, absolutely. It walks out into that pool area so that there are double
doors that walk right out into that pool.
Harb: So, where do you store your pool equipment right now?
Petitioner: Well, there’s – some of it I’ve had underneath there’s a deck on the back,
too, that I put in, but there’s many trees in the yard that if you leave that stuff out over
the winter just the leaves and everything else just stain everything so bad so I want to
put it inside somewhere, you know, where it’s going to be covered and not necessary to
the elements so much. So, it’s really my only place to do it. If I put it in the garage, you
know, one table would take up where I wouldn’t really be able to put a car in there.
Harb: Right.
Petitioner: So, that’s my difficulty.
Harb: Right. So, you want to put in a barn. There’s no way that you’re going to be able
to get back to it so you’re not going to store cars or anything there.
Petitioner: No.
Harb: It’s just going to be to maintain your property.
Petitioner: And storage for bicycles, you know, we’ll be able to get bikes back there and
stuff like that.
Harb: Right. All right. So, I have a couple issues, one, and the garage height. I’m not
sure why a denial of the height variance is going to harm you. I want you to tell me why
you feel like you need that extra 5-ft. for example or 6-ft. on your height and tell me why
you need, since you’re not going to store cars, why do you need 8-ft. doors rather than
6-ft. doors or something else.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 39 June 7, 2011
Petitioner: Well, the Bobcat, the height of the Bobcat, you need that so I can drive that
in.
Harb: I’m talking about width not height.
Petitioner: Well, the thing is wide, too, I mean, it’s pretty big.
Pastor: They’re taller than your car.
Harb: Okay.
Petitioner: And so that was my reasoning for the extra storage on top was because that
limit – you know, the lawn mower, that and, you know, some lawn trimming equipment
and some chain saws pretty much take up that whole lower level so that was my
intention rather than make the barn twice as big, you know, and lower height, I could
have the loft upstairs strictly for storage of lawn furniture, bicycles and whatnot.
Harb: All right. So, a lot of people that come before us and trying to justify a 22 by 32-
ft. space --
Petitioner: Right.
Harb: -- they kind of tell us exactly what you’re going to put in it. Are you saying that
with shelving and everything that space by itself is not going to be enough for your stuff
you’d need a second floor; really?
Petitioner: Correct. Just because of my family size, I have six kids, you know, I don’t
know how many people have come before you with the size of the lot that I have either.
I mean, I’ve got a pretty big yard and again with the slope I don’t necessarily see why
the height is such – I think it would be better to have the height for my situation rather
than – I know there’s a larger barn like - my neighbors actually have more height and
larger, but I think that would be better than having a larger area in other words on the
property or utilize the height because of the slope with the land so that you’re
necessarily taking so much, you know, it’s so much of a large structure.
Harb I personally feel that this is too big and too tall. Actually I’m not as concerned
about the bigness, the square footage of it because, you know, again you do have two
acres plus.
Petitioner: Right.
Harb: And you do have needs, you know, to maintain your yard. I’m still not convinced
about the height though and hopefully some of the other Commissioners will ask you
questions and you could answer them for me. Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 39 June 7, 2011
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Why don’t you just give the Board some examples of what you would put
upstairs? What would you take up there?
Petitioner: Well, for example, you know, eight bicycles.
Aloe: But would you take them upstairs?
Petitioner: Oh, yeah, because again in my garage and I’m one that my cars have to be
in nice shape. If one of the bikes fell on my car, I’d have a heart attack.
Aloe: Right.
Petitioner: So, when they’re in the garage even hanging from the ceiling, there’s not
enough height in the ceiling in my garage where I could hang that many bicycles and
still get a car in there because the garage really isn’t that tall. I have a regular standard
garage. So, there’s going to be the eight bicycles, all my lawn furniture, and all the pool
equipment that would go with it, and again I have smaller kids too they have those
electric ride-on toys. All that stuff I would put upstairs.
Aloe: You would carry all that stuff upstairs?
Petitioner: Yeah, well it’s better than sometimes bringing in the basement and tripping
over it all winter long, too.
Aloe: I think what the Board gets concerned about too is that maybe for you you’d use
it, you know, the way you’ve described but maybe if you sold your home somebody else
would think oh, boy, this would be a great place to have a second business back there.
Nobody will know what’s going on.
Petitioner: But what would you really do with –
Aloe: Would you put a hard surface?
Petitioner: I mean, how would that extra space on top really create a business?
Aloe: You’d be surprised. Would you ever put a hard surface to that garage or that
barn?
Petitioner: It’s going to be cement floor.
Aloe: No, but leading to it would you ever put a hard surface to get back there like from
the side of your house or your driveway or?
Petitioner: No, it would be difficult and I don’t – maybe a pad in the front, but there’s
never going to be a driveway path going to the rear. No, that would just destroy the look
– there’s not much room on the side of the house any way to do that.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 39 June 7, 2011
Aloe: Okay. Thank you.
Henzi: Did you say when you bought the house?
Petitioner: 2005.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: I’ve got a comment. I was there, I was in the backyard and I’ll tell you
going back there because I was concerned about height as well going back there and
looking up towards the house, the house is – the top of the house to – would dwarf what
this barn is going to look like back there. That’s my opinion when I saw this yard which
is as Mr. Nofz said, it goes down. When I walked back with him, I think its 15-ft. at least
below the grade down there and then continues to drop as you go further back in the
yard. Again, I had concerns. It looked a little big to me at first. When I went back there,
it’s clear to me that this is nowhere, nowhere oversized for this property in my mind.
Mr. Nofz, I seen some other things in your yard you had kids’ toys, I saw a little snow
mobile back there
Petitioner: Yes, I’ve got a snow mobile.
Caramagno: Some other things, these are all things that you will put inside and not
have out in the weather if you had a garage back there?
Petitioner: Exactly, and even, just right now I even have my tractor outside because I’ve
got a car in the garage and so it’s just that point of storage that I have a snow mobile
which I don’t ride here. That snow mobile is from a cottage that we have, but I would
like to have it even if it’s there, you know what I mean, seasonally.
Caramagno: You don’t want to leave it outside.
Petitioner: Exactly, I’d like to put that in there, and you know, it’s so hard as my kids get
older I know things are going to change too, so I plan on staying in that house like I
know there’s concerns that I’m going to move. I plan on dying there in my nineties or at
least if I make it that far. So, I’m not planning any future --
Caramagno: Good luck.
Petitioner: And I put so much in it and honestly I could never sell it anyway. I plan –
and we love it there, I plan on keeping it forever. So, it’s not in my future plans to sell
the home. I’m trying to look towards the future with my family growing that as they get
older they are going to need different things and, you know, the smaller bikes will go
away, but they’ll get into mountain biking or they’ll get into hockey. There will be hockey
equipment that I’ll be storing up there. Luckily, they are not into sports yet so I don’t
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 39 June 7, 2011
have to worry about that, but with five boys, I’m sure there’s going to be a huge
possibility that they’re going to play sports and I’m going to need some extra space for
storing all that stuff.
Caramagno: How much of that property – you have 2 ½ acres, how much of it is
maintained?
Petitioner: I would say –
Caramagno: As far as cutting versus wooded area, 80 percent?
Petitioner: Maybe 70% I would say.
Caramagno: 70% is maintained.
Petitioner: Because it goes way back to the creek that I don’t even cut.
Caramagno: Okay. That’s all I’ve got for right now.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: So, we can ignore this comment here about if we don’t approve this, you’re
going to have to leave?
Petitioner: Maybe that was a little harsh. I really --
Moran: No, no, let me ask my question. I was just joking. My next attempt at levity is
when are you going to come for this fence on the east side with the neighbor that sued
you?
Petitioner: What do you mean what fence?
Moran: A fence variance. I don’t imagine it’s a good relationship to the east.
Petitioner: Oh, no, well, she died. She actually committed suicide actually in the
driveway. It was – believe me, what I went through in this home is unbelievable. It
would make everybody’s head spin the amount of, you know, time that I’ve been in
court and what I’ve learned unfortunately was too much, you know, for what I’ve done.
Moran: What type of heating or – will there be any type of heating in there?
Petitioner: No heating.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 39 June 7, 2011
Moran: I think one of the problems that some of the Board members are having is that if
you view this like a home, you know, when you calculate square footage --
Petitioner: Right, it’s a home, I agree.
Moran: And ordinarily you include a second floor.
Petitioner: Right.
Moran: So, we’re looking at adding nearly 1,450 more square feet of storage and Mr.
Fisher and I always go round and round on this, I believe 200-sq. ft. is allowed, because
I really view this as a shed, it’s not a garage. It isn’t going to house a vehicle, but that’s
another issue of mine. I really just wanted to explore the heating aspect of it and how
you intend to use it.
Petitioner: No heat.
Moran: I have no other questions.
Henzi: Any other questions? What do you store in the existing garage?
Petitioner: There’s a car in there, actually, it’s a classic car that’s in there.
Henzi: What else, tools?
Petitioner: There’s actually a spare set of tires for that same car, the lawn equipment
like the weed whips, trimmers, a couple lawn chairs, some camping equipment, and
stuff like that that we have in there now.
Henzi: How many vehicles in your household?
Petitioner: Right now I own, let’s see, four vehicles.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Going back to what Mr. Moran was saying, were you saying about 200 for a
shed?
Moran: Well, isn’t that what a shed is allowed on an out building would be?
Fisher: Right.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 39 June 7, 2011
Aloe: So, if you took his – okay so then if you took his 1309 subtracted out the 720 he’s
allowed, that leaves 580 and then he could have another 200 for a shed so that he’s
really 380 over?
Fisher: Well, depending on how you count, I mean this is --
Aloe: Is it 900 attached? No, 720 attached.
Fisher: No, it is 900 attached.
Sills: No, attached 900.
Fisher: But then you wouldn’t be able to have a shed.
Aloe: Okay.
Moran: If you don’t count the second floor, Toni.
Aloe: Oh.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: On the second floor, can you tell us the square footage you plan on using
because I think Mr. Moran is trying to count the whole second floor which I know will
not be used. So, do you or the builder have approximate square footage upstairs?
Bongero: It’s 12-ft. wide.
Petitioner: Yeah, but the way that the roof line goes it actually takes away quite a bit of
the second –
Pastor: The upstairs will be 12-ft. wide?
Bongero: Yeah, it is 12 ft. wide and the knee walls on the side are 7-ft. and then it’s got
a flat ceiling.
Pastor: So, 12-ft. by the depth of the –
Bongero: Yes.
Pastor: Okay. Thank you.
Bongero: And I don’t think it goes end to end either. I think it’s –
Petitioner: There’s a stairwell in the back to get up there it cuts some --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 39 June 7, 2011
Pastor: So, you’re talking about 350-ft. give or take?
Bongero: Right.
Pastor: Thank you.
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: I want to try one more time. Do you feel like you can’t store stuff above the
second garage if it wasn’t 22-ft?
Petitioner: I mean, I’m a pretty tall guy, it would be hard, you’d be –
Harb: Do you feel like you have to be standing --
Petitioner: Well, if you’re bringing a bike up there, that’s hard, you know what I’m
saying, or doing something like that where you kind of need the space to walk and roll it
over there.
Harb: Seriously, you’re saying that you couldn’t hang a bike in a 720 something square
foot garage, really?
Petitioner: Well, it’s not just necessarily hanging the bike. I’m actually going to put the
bike up there, but then there are the tables and chairs and the pool equipment and stuff
that I can actually put up on the floor of that second floor.
Harb: You wouldn’t be using hangers for some of the pool equipment and stuff. You’re
just saying that you’re going to dump everything on the floor and you’re not going to
have any extra room at all that you need to be walking in a second floor?
Petitioner: It’s just to me in my opinion, it makes more sense if you’re able to walk up in
that second floor, to be able to – you know, it gives you a lot more freedom with the
bicycles and with whatever I’m going to store up there. Rather than having like an attic
space, like I do have an attic above the current garage that I have now and it’s just --
you know, it’s difficult to even put a lawn chair up there. It does have stairs that you can
pull down and you go up in there, but there’s not a whole lot you can do with it and
again, you know, the roof is --
Harb: How tall is that?
Petitioner: A standard, I don’t know – 20 to the peak probably in the center, like my
current garage.
Bongero: Sixteen.
Petitioner: Sixteen. So, you get 4-ft. of clear area in there. It’s difficult.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 39 June 7, 2011
Harb: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants
to speak for or against the project, if so, come on up. I see no one coming forward. Are
there letters to read?
Caramagno: David DeMore [31471 Curtis] writes support (letter was read). An
approval from Raini Gilmore [31440 Curtis] (letter was read). Myzafer-Ramolli [31679
Curtis] writes an approval (letter was read). Daniel Rochowiak [31633 Curtis] sends an
approval.
Henzi: Mr. Nofz, anything you would like to say in closing?
Petitioner: I guess I just want to make it clear to the Board that that second floor is not
going to be an office, work shop, you know, it won’t be turned into a pool room with
video games and a pool table. It’s strictly going to be for storage.
Henzi: Thank you.
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: One last question. What is the zoning of the property behind you? What does
NP stand for, Mike?
Fisher: Nature Preserve. That would be Rotary Park.
Moran: Thank you.
Henzi: Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments.
Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Well, I will be in approval. I think, especially the one letter from David and
Patricia DeMore really says a lot for the uniqueness. The ordinance for a 720-sq. ft. is
your typically 60, 80 x 120 lot. This is an RUF lot, its 2 ½ acres. It can absolutely
support this size building which I’m happy to see a barn instead of some big monstrosity
garage out there. Petitioner has the need. He’s got six children, he’s got 2 ½ acres to
maintain, and I will be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Toni has said just about everything. I think the slope in the backyard with
the drop off mitigates the problem with the height. It’s a big family, the neighbor support
is very good. There are other big barns, many of this street that what you’re proposing
here and there’s not much larger residential lots in this City than what we are looking
here today. I’m in support.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 39 June 7, 2011
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: Well, I certainly agree that the Petitioner needs something. I think when you
have an approximately 600-sq. ft. garage it’s not enough and you’re in a bit of a no
man’s land once you start adding you’re not just going to add 400-sq. ft, you’re going to
add more. I’m not convinced the hardship is quite as great as the Petitioner has
presented here. I have a little trouble with talking about where we’re going to physically
put bicycles when we have 1,000 more square feet being added, but I am convinced
that there is some sort of a hardship. What allows me to vote for the approval of this is
truly the uniqueness of the plan and the neighborhood. I, too, like Sam was concerned
about how visible this would be from the street. I drove up and down Merriman. I could
see the horses. I wanted to know if I was going to be able to see this barn, but it’s going
to be a nice-looking structure even if we can see it when the foliage is down. It’s a little
bit excessive for my liking. I would prefer to see something more like 23 x 25, but I’m
not going to quibble about that. So, I will be in support it of it and I really think that again
I want to stress that it’s the uniqueness of the neighborhood that allows me to do this
and the elevation of the property that allows me to do this. But if I could see this thing
from the street over the roof of a home, I think it would look terrible. The last comment I
would like to make is I don’t anticipate the nature preserve going away so we’ll always
have that kind of coverage and it shouldn’t be an eyesore to anyone and the existing
neighbors are in approval. So, for all those reasons I can support this.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: All the other Board members convinced me that I will approve as well. Now,
given that again, given that, again no heating, no hard surface to the garage, standard
electrical with those conditions I could be in approval.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I will be in approval. I think this property well deserves a garage or a building of
this sort. I don’t have too much heartache over the upstairs and I don’t care if he heats
it because if it was me, I’d be putting heat in there, but I’ll be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: I think that everything that should have been said has been said. I will make one
comment. When I first drove up today, it scared me looking at all those toys out in front
of the house and now that I’ve come here tonight, I’m just questioning whether you’re
building a large enough building to store all that stuff.
Petitioner: I hope I am.
Sills: And the other comment I might make is that a couple weeks ago we had a case
before us that Bongero Construction was involved with on Bell Creek Lane and if that’s
any sign of what Bongero Constructions does I’m all for. He’s going to be a beautiful
job.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 39 June 7, 2011
Petitioner: My mother actually lives on Bell Creek as well so that’s one of the reasons
why I got him. I was attracted to what he did to that home there as well.
Sills: I’ll certainly be in support.
Harb: We had a lot of people that complained – was your mom one of the complainers?
Petitioner: She lives further down. I heard from Dave some of the stuff. No, she lives
more towards Farmington Road. She’s like the second house off Farmington Road.
Henzi: I, too, will approve the variance, but I will say I did have a problem with the
height at first. Just so the Petitioner has some perspective. We’ve battled with folks
who wanted 17 ½ ft. It’s extremely rare for somebody to come and ask for 6-ft. over
the height clearance. But I agree if there’s a slope, I don’t consider this to be problem.
You know, as a kid I remember horses being in Rotary Park it seems like every time I
went that is a unique street and that’s the one street that backs up to Rotary Park where
you should be able to have a very big outbuilding.
Petitioner: Absolutely, and if I can make a comment.
Henzi: Sure.
Petitioner: When I talk to the older folks on the street, you know, they all had horses.
There was probably six or seven people at a time that had – that’s what their barns
were, they were literally horse stables. I kind of had that vision – while I’ve got young
kids, it would be kind of neat to have that back although I don’t have plans for it. I don’t
have the time for it, but, you know, it is something really nice and I think even when
people visit my home they are amazed that that’s in Livonia. They feel like they’re in the
country. I mean, it’s beautiful.
Henzi: Thanks. So, the floor is open for a motion.
Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-27: Robert and Melanie Nofz, 31600
Curtis, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a detached garage resulting in excess
number of garages, garage height and garage area.
Number of Garages Detached Garage Height
Allowed: One Allowed: 16 ft.
Proposed: Two Proposed: 22 ft.
Excess: One Excess: 6 ft.
Garage Area
Allowed: 720 sq. ft.
Proposed: 1,309 sq. ft.
Existing: 584 sq. ft.
Excess: 589 sq. ft.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 39 June 7, 2011
The property is located on the north side of Curtis (31600) between Merriman and west
end, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because Petitioner’s house sits on a very
large 2 ½ acre parcel of land and the size of the family consisting of six
children with a relatively small garage.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because he would lack the ability to store his yard maintenance equipment,
seasonal items for pool and miscellaneous recreational items for the family.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in
the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because this is a very large lot and the
neighboring homes have many large barns and garages on their property and
Petitioner has strong neighbor support.
4. The Board received four (4) letters of approval and no letters of objection from
neighboring property owners.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective
of the Master Plan because the property is classified “Low-density Residential
under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that
classification.
FURTHER, this variance be granted with the following conditions.
1. That the structure be built as presented to the Board.
2. That electricity be limited to standard 110 volt.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Aloe, Harb, Moran, Sills, Henzi
NAYS: None
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: If I may ask the Petitioner, if I may ask the Petitioner?
Petitioner: I’m sorry.
Sills: Your existing attached garage, do you have – is it a drive-through garage?
Petitioner: Correct. Yes, it is.
Sills: Is there some reason why you made it a drive-through garage?
Petitioner: That actually – I didn’t do that. That was done before me
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 39 June 7, 2011
Sills: Okay. Thank you.
Petitioner: I actually added on to the back of the house on the other side, not that side.
Actually, I didn’t like it at first when I bought the home having a door on the front and the
back, but for me it helps with the storage situation because you have a door on both
sides.
Sills: Thank you.
Harb: That raises the issue is there going to be a hard surface from the current garage
to the new garage?
Sills: He said no.
Henzi: He said no.
Caramagno: We didn’t ask for it and from the Petitioner’s statement –
Petitioner: Do you want to exclude it is what I think Ken is after?
Harb: If this is a drive through, I know that there’s a pool right there, but I’m noticing that
you can’t put a hard surface, you know, along the east side of the property.
Caramagno: That doesn’t appear reasonable. At least when I was there he said he was
going to put a pad, concrete pad in front of the door; is that what you said?
Petitioner: Future intention. I don’t plan on doing that right away. I have to kind of see
how that looks. I don’t want to make it like a real hard looking structure there. So, I
might put pavers or some kind of – out front of it or something.
Harb: You don’t care?
Caramagno: It doesn’t matter. I’m satisfied.
Henzi: Your variance is granted with just two conditions. You have to build it as you
presented and then you’re limited to the standard 110 volt electric.
Petitioner: Great. Thank you. I appreciate it.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 39 June 7, 2011
______________________________________________________________________
(8:32 #1/2344)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-28: Sheldon Center, LLC, 24255 West Thirteen Mile
Road, Suite 220, Bingham Farms, MI 48025, on behalf of Lessee State of
Michigan, 530 W. Allegan Street, Lansing, MI 48933, seeking to erect a wall sign
resulting in excess wall sign area.
Wall Sign Area
Allowed: 40 sq. ft.
Proposed: 60 sq. ft.
Excess: 20 sq. ft.
The property is located on the south side of Plymouth (33231) between Farmington and
Woodring.
Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add on this one?
DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, good evening, can
you tell us your name and address?
Petitioner: Yes, Josh Grenadier, 33231 Plymouth Road.
Henzi: Mr. Grenadier, go ahead and tell us why the request for the wall sign?
Petitioner: Basically, I came here tonight to ask you for a slight increase in size for the
wall sign. I have a building there that’s 150-ft. deep. When you apply the standard
calculation it seems to – it seems to be unfairly small for the size of the building. For
example, I have two buildings on the site, one of them is 150-ft. deep, and one of them
is 60-ft. deep. If I had an identical 1,200 ft. tenant, the Farmington Road side building
could have a 20 ft. sign, the Plymouth Road could have a 9 ft. sign; however, it’s six
times further away from the road on Plymouth than it would be on Farmington. So,
because of the distance from the road and the depth of the building I feel that the sign is
a little bit too small for what we need and I’m here on behalf of a new tenant, the State
of Michigan.
Henzi: Dennis, I thought of a question. Didn’t we grant a variance for Rite Aid for
excess wall sign?
DeMeyer: I believe we did back in 1995.
Henzi: I thought we renewed it. You don’t see it?
DeMeyer: No.
Henzi: Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 39 June 7, 2011
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: You said this is a slight increase. Well, I count it as a 50% increase because –
and the height of your letters – I saw it here some place – justifies me why we need
such tall letters. I understand you’re far back from the road, but it seemed to me that
these letters are going to be taller than the rest of the shopping center letters. I may be
wrong, but that’s how I viewed it.
Petitioner: I’m looking at a picture from Plymouth Road. When I look at the signs, the
Food Land, the Bingo Hall are obviously very large. The Rite Aid as well. The Dollar
General which just moved in a few years ago is, I believe it is 60-sq. ft, it has 60-sq. ft.
of frontage and I believe when you look at that sign I feel like it’s very hard to read from
the street as far as the letter sizes. And I just simply feel that the letter heights that are
available from, you know, an average of 350-ft. I think it’s difficult to read and I feel like
the, you know, any customer of the building would also find it difficult to read.
Pastor: I’m sorry, I know I read it here some place, but what is the height of your
lettering?
Petitioner: I don’t have that with me.
Pastor: I know I read it here.
Petitioner: In my application I thought the sign was –
Moran: 21 to 26 inches.
Pastor: Okay. So, you’re only asking for five more inches in height.
Petitioner: Yes.
Pastor: Okay. Thank you.
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: Maybe Inspection could talk about this, but on the Zoning Board Meeting of
August 22, 1995, it is suggested the Rite Aid pharmacy signs were 24 inch red channel
letters, do you think that would be the case now?
DeMeyer: I couldn’t answer that, Ken.
Petitioner: I would believe – I’m looking at this picture, I would agree with that and if I
may add that when I look at all the signs, the six of them, I feel like the Rite Aid is the
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 39 June 7, 2011
second smallest next to the Dollar General as far as readability from the street. I’d be
happy to share this picture with you if I could.
Harb: Yes, I would love to see that. Now, what you are asking for is 26 inch channel
letters for the lottery but not for Michigan?
Petitioner: The dimensions that I gave I believe was just for that lottery segment
because it is the largest. These are the pictures, basically, Rite Aid. This is a banner
that if anyone saw, the banner is actually the 40-sq. ft. that it’s allowable under the
ordinance and there’s a closer picture. You can see the banner in that picture.
Caramagno: Are you saying the banner is up now, that’s what’s up there now?
Petitioner: There is a banner up there now and the banner would conform without a
variance.
Caramagno: Okay. I thought so. Thanks.
Henzi: Do you have more questions?
Harb: No, thank you.
Moran: Sir, did you say the Dollar General is 60-ft, 60-sq. ft?
Petitioner: I believe so.
Moran: So, it’s the same size?
Petitioner: Yes, except that the Dollar General is spread out so ours would be kind of
stacked half the width - double the height.
Moran: Its still 60 sq. ft?
Petitioner: I believe so. I mean, the square footage --
Moran: Are you sure yours is large enough, I mean, you’re going to put 15 letters in 60-
sq. ft. and they have 13 letters in 60-sq. ft. and you think theirs is too small; is you’re
going to be adequate?
Petitioner: Well, we came up with the 60-sq. ft. number just to try not to offend the
Board, to feel like it’s somewhat of a justifiable addition, but I do think that it’s going to
be, I think it’s going to be fine. I think the Lottery would be readable at the 25 inches
which is just slightly bigger than the Rite Aid sign and I think it will fit in with all the
neighbors.
Moran: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 39 June 7, 2011
Henzi: I think I know the answer to this, but yours isn’t specific but what’s the purpose
for the tenant? Who are the folks that are going to be looking to use this?
Petitioner: It is the State of Michigan Regional Lottery Office. Its main purpose is
serving – it houses salesmen that work for the Lottery that go out to various liquor
stores or party stores and grocery stores and then the other half of the operation is a
payment center for any redemption of a lottery ticket, I think over $500.00. You would
come to the site and they will cut you a check. They have a big box of the big ones that
you see. The real checks that you want the ones that are 6-ft. wide. They have a
couple of those in the back.
Henzi: And then the other thing is just a comment but, I am almost certain that we
approved a variance for Rite Aid to have wall signs on each corner, Plymouth and
Farmington Road; does anybody remember that?
Petitioner: That is how it exists. They have two signs.
Henzi: Right.
Petitioner: On each side, or one on each side.
Henzi: For how long?
Petitioner: I’ve only been affiliated with the property for about 12 years and as long as
I’ve – since ’99 so.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: It’s always had it since ’99.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: And it’s been the same sign.
Henzi: It’s been the same sign, never replaced?
Petitioner: Not since ’99, no. It’s actually one of the things that I did discuss with them
because Rite Aid has a new look to their signs, you know, we actually talked at length
with Rite Aid a few years ago tearing down that corner of the shopping center and
rebuilding the new – it’s called Customer World Model, the Rite Aid with the fancy white
rounded outside and the deal did not go through, but one of the things I’ve been asking
them is if they would upgrade their signage and I would even contribute to that a little bit
to update the look of the Center a little bit, but I haven’t been successful.
Henzi: Maybe I missed remembering Rite Aid wanted double signage on another
property and use that as evidence for why we should give it to him, any other
questions?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 39 June 7, 2011
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Did these stores have addresses on their fronts?
Petitioner: The addresses are above the front door which is set back from the parking
lot even, you know, about 10 or 12 ft. there’s a canopy.
Aloe: So you for sure wouldn’t see the address, right?
Petitioner: Not from the road, no.
Aloe: Okay. Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: It’s a service center I understand you said that, where’s that service center
now; where does it operate now?
Petitioner: Dearborn Heights. They moved from Dearborn Heights actually their sign in
Dearborn Heights was 100-sq. ft. for the same size, they’re a little bit more relaxed sign
ordinance and I actually felt that that sign was obnoxiously large. I don’t have a picture
with me.
Caramagno: So, they’re leaving Dearborn Heights and coming here?
Petitioner: They have left Dearborn Heights and they’re coming here, yes.
Caramagno: How long has that building been vacant?
Petitioner: That store was vacant since Dollarific left which must be seven, six, seven
years, quite a while.
Henzi: Anything else? Okay. Seeing no one in the audience to come forward, can you
read the letter?
Caramagno: Approval from Phil Hoehn [10950 Farmington Rd.] (letter read).
Henzi: Mr. Grenadier anything you would like to say in closing?
Petitioner: No.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 39 June 7, 2011
Henzi: Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s
comments with Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: I don’t think the sign is too large for the purpose. Signs need to be
effective. They’ve got to be able to grab people off Plymouth Road and if they can’t do
that, then why have them there. Your pictures that you passed around tonight were a
good description of that. When you look at the banner that’s there, that clearly to me
isn’t large enough to see from Plymouth Road. So, what you’re proposing here I think is
fair and I’m in support.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: I’m in support. I think the sign is quite reasonable and descriptive. 350- ft.
setback, I like that the Petitioner used a guideline. I’m not sure if I would subscribe to it,
but for the first time someone has come and said we need this size sign for every 10-ft.
of distance rather than just because that’s what we need. I appreciate that and again I
think the real uniqueness here is you only have 40- sq. ft. of frontage, to be limited to a
description of a business because the frontage is - the shape of the building long and
narrow would be unreasonable so for those reasons I’m in support.
Henzi: Harb.
Harb: I agree. I believe the banner is too small. I think 60-sq. ft. is better although I’m
afraid that everyone is going to want an additional 50% on their signs as well. Up and
down Plymouth Road they’re going to say, see, you gave it to them.
Petitioner: Pay attention to the depth.
Harb: But there is a uniqueness here and that’s the reason why I am supporting this.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Normally I would not support a package such as this being 50% over, but I
really do appreciate you bringing those pictures to me because when I drove up to the
building, I’m looking at the sign on the building I’m not looking at it on Plymouth Road.
So, because of those pictures I have changed my mind and I will be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Sills.
Sills: Dearborn Heights loss is our gain. I’ll be in support.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Well, I think the Petitioner truly has an identification hardship. I mean, most
people when they go to find anything any more is they Google it and if they Google it
and they get the address, they’re never going to see the address at 350-ft. back from
Plymouth Road, so I think this sign is warranted and I will be in support.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 39 June 7, 2011
Henzi: I will too. Plymouth Road is a very busy road and this shopping center sets
back a great distance from Plymouth Road; therefore, I think the request is reasonable
and I will approve. The floor is open for a motion.
Upon Motion by Moran, supported by Pastor:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-28: Sheldon Center, LLC, 24255 West
Thirteen Mile Road, Suite 220, Bingham Farms, MI 48025, on behalf of Lessee
State of Michigan, 530 W. Allegan Street, Lansing, MI 48933, seeking to erect a
wall sign resulting in excess wall sign area.
Wall Sign Area
Allowed: 40. sq. ft.
Proposed: 60 sq. ft.
Excess: 20 sq. ft.
The property is located on the south side of Plymouth (33231) between Farmington and
Woodring be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the tenant’s building space is
limited to a disproportionately small amount of signage due to the unique
dimensions being long and narrow, and the location of the sign being
significantly back from the main thoroughfare.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because the signage that is permissible under the ordinance would not be
adequate for visibility from the road.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in
the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because it is consistent with other signage
in the neighborhood.
4. The Board received one (1) letter of approval and no letters of objection from
neighboring property owners.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective
of the Master Plan because the property is “General Commercial” under the
Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that
classification.
FURTHER, this variance be granted with the following conditions.
1. That the sign be built as presented to the Board.
2. That the sign must be erected within one year.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 39 June 7, 2011
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Moran, Pastor, Aloe, Caramagno, Harb, Sills, Henzi
NAYS: None
Henzi: The variance is granted with those two conditions. You have to erect as
presented and do so within one year.
Petitioner: All right. Thank you very much.
Henzi: Good luck.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 39 June 7, 2011
Motion by Harb, supported by Pastor, to approve the minutes of the May 10, 2011 ZBA
meeting.
All in favor.
Henzi: Before we adjourn, I would like to say, Mike, can you and I’m saying this on the
record maybe as a reminder to you. Can you talk to Sergeant Gibbs because if he’s
basing this 10-ft. – his obstruction opinion on a study or something other than --
Pastor: Because I like it.
Henzi: -- because, yeah, because he likes it then I might vote differently, but otherwise
he’s going to keep suggesting that there’s an obstruction and then we go out there and
say this looks like everything we’ve ever approved there’s no problem and I don’t like – I
don’t want to see a situation where he objects to every single one and then we approve
everyone.
Pastor: Approve every single one.
Fisher: Well, from the conversation I have had with him, he is maybe less inclined than
like maybe Dave Studt was to approve some and gong some. I mean, his philosophy it
seems to be much more hard line and I don’t know if that’s going to change over time,
or if that’s just the way it’s going to be.
Henzi: Okay. I guess I was just wondering, you know, if he points to a study that says
here’s why an accident is more likely to happen --
Fisher: He hasn’t so far but, I’ll talk to him about that.
Moran: Furthermore, Matt, we seem to be – the last two we’ve done have been – the
legs being 10 x 10 seems to become our new standard. What is his standard?
Pastor: Yeah, is there a standard that he would say yes.
Moran: Is he at 12, is he at 25, how far apart are we?
Pastor: That’s a good point.
Fisher: He’s probably closer to 25, the truth be known.
Moran: The truth, but all we see is no.
Pastor: Well, that’s not practical in most cases.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 39 June 7, 2011
Fisher: I don’t know what’s practical in most cases and I’ll see if I can get him to loosen
up any or share more of his feelings or whatever.
Moran: Thank you.
Caramagno: Add another sentence or two to his letter.
Fisher: Well, we’re putting him under pressure. We’ve been asking him to do these
faster than we have ever asked Studt to do, so maybe we should slow down a little bit
and let him --
Aloe: Faster meaning less time to get out there and do it.
Fisher: Yes, because we’re trying to move these cases faster than we used to when we
had a hundred plus cases a year.
Aloe: But we only meet every other week now.
Fisher: Yeah.
Aloe: Not even every week.
Pastor: It’s every other week so how fast is that?
Fisher: I know but, they’re coming through the door and through the Police Department
it’s faster now than it used to be because we had so many cases back logged before it
didn’t matter.
Aloe: Oh, okay.
There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at
8:35 p.m.
__________________________
SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary
__________________________
MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman
/hdm