HomeMy WebLinkAbout06-28-11City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 64 June 28, 2011
ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
CITY OF LIVONIA
MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING HELD JUNE 28, 2011
MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman
Terry Moran, Vice Chairman
Sam Caramagno, Secretary
Toni Aloe
Ken Harb
Craig Pastor
MEMBERS ABSENT: None
OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney
Scott Kearfott, City Inspector
Helen Mininni, Court Reporter
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules
of Procedure to those interested parties. Each Petitioner must give their name and
address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are
made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that
appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The
decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following
the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four
decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or
to table for further information. Each Petitioner may ask to be heard by a seven (7)
member Board. Six (6) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if
anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary
then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each Petitioner indicated
their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all
interested parties within 300 feet, Petitioners and City Departments. There were 34
persons present in the audience.
______________________________________________________________________
(7:05 #1/19)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2008-10-58 (Rehearing) (Tabled on May 24, 2011): Danielle
Bagley, 34496 Wood, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking a continuation of a previous
conditional use permit to operate a group day care for up to twelve minor
children, which the Petitioner now seeks permanent approval of the Zoning
Board of Appeals.
The property is located on the north side of Wood (34496) between Fairlane and
Whitby.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 64 June 28, 2011
Henzi: Is there a motion to remove from the table?
Pastor: Mr. Chair, I will make a motion.
Aloe: Support.
Henzi: All in favor say aye.
Board: (In unison) Aye.
Henzi: Opposed. It is removed. Mr. Kearfott, anything to add to this case?
Kearfott: Not at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department?
Pastor: Yes, Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Mr. Kearfott, have you heard of any complaints of traffic or anything in this
particular area?
Kearfott: I looked up today and I have no record of complaints for cars or traffic in that
location.
Pastor: Thank you.
Henzi: Anything else? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table?
Petitioner: I have packets to pass out to all of you.
Henzi: Okay. Can you say your name and address for the record?
Petitioner: Danielle Bagley, 34496 Wood Street.
Henzi: Mrs. Bagley, you were here once before. It was tabled because we were at a
deadlock. Why don’t you tell us about what’s in the packet.
Petitioner: I came just totally unprepared last time because I did check with the – when I
signed up for the next meeting I asked specifically was there any complaints against me
because that was the whole conditional variance conditions of the variance and when I
found out that there were none I thought this was going to be pretty routine and just
answer a few questions and I was just not prepared for what happened at all. So, I just
took some pictures and just put together some things and my schedules of various
things, the times that children are picked up and dropped off and the times that the
schools begin and end. The whole thing is not the day care itself it’s the traffic and we
are sandwiched between Stevenson and Cass so there is going to be a whole lot of
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 64 June 28, 2011
traffic that is completely out of our control. And as far as the busing goes, we talked to
transportation and I have – that’s what that transportation page is. Is that we talked to
the manager and we were told that we have 24 stops within a tenth of a mile of our
house. And she said that she was amazed that there were that many and we have a
bus stop directly in our driveway. And we have 20 to 25 children that are standing in
our driveway which that’s, that’s – when it’s raining there’s parents parking all up and
down Fairlane and I thought that maybe anybody that was complaining thought that
maybe that was part of my day care also and I just wanted to show that it was not. And
since we were told about the blocking of the sidewalk we’ve moved our cars, you know,
as we could because we have that eight to two restriction in front of our house that we
can’t park in front of the house so we have been moving it to and from the driveway so
our driveway is completely clear now. And there’s pictures of – my son has special
needs and he gets picked up directly in front of the house and some of those pictures
are showing that there’s neighbors that are parked in the street that aren’t, you know,
just to show that – I don’t know – just to show that they are blocking the street also and
that you’re not supposed to park between eight and two and – but the times that the
school start and everything is when the busses are coming and going. And a majority of
it my parents are missing. They get dropped off between seven and eight or eight-thirty
depending on the day and then they get picked up about four-thirty to about five-thirty or
six. So, I’m sort of missing the traffic and I’ve only got six cars total that come and go
from my driveway and it’s not all at once, it’s one or two at a time.
Henzi: You said that there’s a bus stop.
Petitioner: Right in my driveway.
Henzi: Is that used for each of the schools or are there standard times?
Petitioner: That one particular one it’s a middle school, but I’m not sure which one, but
it’s right in the driveway and it’s about 7:20 that they’re there and that’s when I have one
or two parents dropping off their kids. But when it’s raining especially there’s parents
just lined up and down that street just sitting like waiting there till the bus to come and I
just wanted to show that that wasn’t my traffic either.
Henzi: And then you’ve got this other satellite view with yellow highlights –
Petitioner: Yeah, just of the bus route.
Henzi: -- which is basically how you get in and out of the sub on both sides, right, would
be in Fairlane?
Petitioner: When we first moved into this house, I knew I wanted to run a day care and
this house I thought was perfect because the driveway is all by itself and I mean it goes
into a street that’s already fairly busy for the subdivision. I didn’t think I would ever have
a problem bothering anybody and the neighbors entirely around me have never said
anything and I was actually kind of surprised that I had any neighbors that were
complaining.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 64 June 28, 2011
Henzi: Have you ever made complaints about folks parking between eight and two
during school days?
Petitioner: Oh, no. No, I haven’t.
Henzi: Is it a problem though?
Petitioner: Because of the special needs situation he’s supposed to be picked up at the
curb and they have to go in the middle of the street kind of to get around the cars, but
that’s not been anything that I’ve called on or anything. And then he gets dropped off
right in the driveway and that’s very convenient because the busses are coming straight
down Fairlane anyway.
Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioner?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Is this your new permit?
Petitioner: Yes, I brought a copy of my new – I just became re-licensed because it
expired on June 3rd.
Caramagno: So, you went ahead and redid that. There’s a lot to swallow here but I
think these pictures kind of illustrate the problem that I had with it. There’s just a lot of
traffic, a ton of traffic. I’m surprised there have not been any accidents or anybody
getting hurt here. Has there been any accidents?
Petitioner: Not to my knowledge, no.
Caramagno: Nothing has been hit? No buses have hit cars, no cars have hit buses,
nothing?
Petitioner: No, from about four o’clock on – I think Cass comes out at about four o’clock
that’s when my son gets dropped off and it’s just a wall of traffic for about a good half
hour from Cass. And then Stevenson gets out just before that so there’s just the traffic
from there, too, it’s just a congested area and I’m only about a hundred feet up from Six
Mile. And also because I’m the only driveway I get a lot of turn arounds in my driveway,
too, which is not a big deal it’s just I want to illustrate that it’s also not my traffic.
Caramagno: Do you park any vehicles in your garage?
Petitioner: Usually, no, but we can park in the street. Now that school has been out
since June 16th our cars just stay in the street in front of our house and nobody ever
parks on Fairlane ever but I’m not sure if you’re even allowed to but because of all the
traffic we just don’t. Our driveway and we try to keep the garage open also. The
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 64 June 28, 2011
person I have helping me she usually goes in the driveway, I mean – I’m sorry in the
garage just to keep the driveway clear.
Caramagno: Tell me again, you probably said it and I didn’t hear you. Where are the
children being dropped off?
Petitioner: In my driveway and they come through the garage.
Caramagno: They pull into the driveway.
Petitioner: Yes.
Caramagno: And they have to back out into this traffic.
Petitioner: Yes.
Caramagno: After they drop off and the same thing when they pick them up.
Petitioner: Yes.
Caramagno: Okay.
Petitioner: And I have one family that picks up at four-thirty and she a lot of times has to
sit there and wait for quite a while for the traffic to clear to even back out, but I’ve only
got one or two cars that come at that time.
Caramagno: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Harb: I have a question.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: What do the parents do of your kids when it is raining when everyone else is
waiting for the bus stop with their own kids? How do they get into the driveway?
Petitioner: Sometimes they have to actually ask the kids to move to the side so they can
pull in or I’ve had parents – I’ve had one parent actually sit in my driveway and I’ve had
to ask her to move out of my driveway so they could come in. But they just block the
driveway I guess which it really, you know, hasn’t been too bad except that it’s just the
time. That happens to be the exact time I have some parents dropping off.
Harb: And how many kids do you have now?
Petitioner: Thirteen almost. There’s one that was just born and one that is going to be
born in October so then I will have 13, but they’re not there at the same time. I have a
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 64 June 28, 2011
capacity of 12 and I’ve got maybe at that point I will have probably 10 kids at a time
each day.
Harb: And when did you start your business, the day care?
Petitioner: I started, I got my license in December of 2007, but I wanted to wait until I
could have my fence built to completely enclose the yard and so I actually started June
of 2008.
Harb: And how many kids did you have to start out?
Petitioner: I started off with six with a family and the families that I had were expecting
more kids to their families so to accommodate that I applied for the group license and I
got that December of 2008 I believe.
Harb: And how many kids did you go up to at that time. It was just internal --
Petitioner: You go from six to 12, 12 is the capacity. Six is a family day care –
Harb: And the increase in the number of kids basically were from your present clientele
that just –
Petitioner: Yeah, yeah, I’ve got only six cars and six families, but I have 13 kids. One
family alone has three and some of them now have two.
Harb: Thank you.
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: I know that busing has been a big issue for our schools. Many years ago I
actually was successful in talking to the person in charge of the buses and made a
reasonable presentation as to why I thought a stop should be changed in our
neighborhood and they did adjust it. Did you ever talk to them?
Petitioner: That’s what my transportation page is that Lisa Keyes, we talked to is the
head of transportation and we told her of the problems we were having and she said
she would do everything she could to move the bus. And she’s the one that told us that
we had 24 stops in a tenth of a mile.
Moran: I didn’t see the part about that she would make an effort to alleviate that.
Petitioner: Yeah.
Moran: In light of your circumstances.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: They couldn’t do anything about it because it was June when I called and
they just had a few more weeks of school, but they said they would do everything they
could to move it. But even moving it like up like where there’s nothing between my
driveway and Six Mile would be a big help, too, but she said she would do what she
could.
Moran: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none is there anyone in the audience who wants
to speak for or against this project; if so, come on up to the table.
Mr. Richey: I’m here in support of the Bagley’s. They live directly behind me. My name
is Edward Richey, 34491 Six Mile Road and I don’t see any problem at all with their
having their day care there. Like they say, the traffic is created by both the high school
and Cass Elementary School and the school buses. I’ve lived there for 20 years and it
has always been a problem. So, I don’t see why five or six cars would really make that
much difference. Thank you.
Henzi: Thank you.
Mr. Bagley: I’m Patrick Bagley. I live at 34496 Wood Street, this is my wife. Now, to
reiterate what she is talking about transportation I’m the one who actually talked to
them. Probably about another month or so I’m going to call them again to just reiterate,
you know, talk to them about moving that spot. She did say that she was going to move
it, but it’s mostly when I call I want to remind her to keep it going. As she stated, we’re
doing a community service. She’s taking care of the families in Livonia. Actually only
one of the family’s that she’s watching for is not in Livonia and because of this zoning
variance she was actually afforded the opportunity of actually hiring someone part time
and they’re also from Livonia. So, it’s helped our community out pretty well. I really
don’t have much else.
Henzi: Thank you, anybody else?
Mrs. Vitkay: My name is Christine Vitkay, 38813 Donald Street. I just recently moved to
Livonia, but Danny has been my day care provider for the last two years. I drop off my
daughter at 7:15 so I was able to help Danny take some of the pictures and 7:20 is
about when I think its Holmes Middle School picks up and that is when we have a ton of
traffic in her driveway. And again, just from some of the pictures you can see at least
four parents parking on Fairlane any day and just parking in front of her house and
again when the school bus comes they’re getting out of their cars and lining up to get on
to the bus. So, you’ve got the four cars, you’ve got the school bus right there and
Danny’s driveway is completely open, you know, there might be me and another parent
dropping off at the same time so our two little Calibers and Focuses taking up her huge
driveway opposed to the mini-vans and stuff dropping off numerous kids that’s
unfortunately that’s really what’s creating most of the traffic and again, you know, as Pat
said almost all of the families that she provides day care for live in Livonia and she’s just
been wonderful with our kids and Pat’s been wonderful too and I would just hate to have
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 64 June 28, 2011
to find some place else to take my child again because she’s been with Danny for so
long. Thank you.
Henzi: Thank you, anybody else?
Mrs. Irvine: My name is Dana Irvine. I live at 18628 Milburn. I’m actually Danielle’s
original customer. I’ve used another home day care provider in Livonia and they
unfortunately moved to a different state so I’ve been with her from the beginning. I have
two kids. I have a four year old and a two year old and the traffic – I normally am the
picker upper, I’m not the dropper offer. I do on occasion drop off I have all week and
because school is out it’s much more convenient to drop off. When I do drop off in the
morning, I cannot even turn on to Fairlane off of Six Mile because of the students
parking – not parking but waiting to turn left into Stevenson. So, if I try to turn because
it’s the direction I’m coming, I have to turn left on to Fairlane it’s almost near impossible.
I’ve seen several accidents happen. I haven’t been involved. Several accidents
happened between parents and students trying to get into Stevenson in the morning.
Sometimes I’ve elected to turn into the neighbor – the street before that has the traffic
light because at least I have some flexibility on not being hit and then I’ll drive down
Wood to get the street and then turn onto Fairlane to get into the driveway. Pick up
time, I pick up normally about 5:00 o’clock. There is much traffic at about 5:00 o’clock
and like everyone said the traffic that I see, you know, from being a parent of Danielle
has nothing to do with the day care. The traffic is from the schools, I mean, that’s pretty
much what it’s from. My husband who drops off in the morning several times he’s had
to go out and ask parents to move. I have dropped off in the rain and have had to wait
until parents will move once the bus stop picks up. My husband has been blocked in
the driveway a couple times by the bus or the parents. So, we try to do our best to not
obscure traffic at all and I really don’t see why this is an issue. I have neighbors in my
neighborhood that block the sidewalk all the time that’s one of the reasons to me as a
resident because when we’re trying to let our daughters ride their bikes on the street –
or on the sidewalk we have to walk out into the street. I don’t understand why six cars
are making, you know, this difference between a group day care and a six person day
care. I mean all of her clients are repeat clients and as families expand that’s why she
went to the group license so I am in favor of allowing the group license to remain.
Henzi: Thank you, anybody else?
Mrs. Richey: I’m Betty Richey and I live at 34491 Six Mile Road directly behind Danny
and my face house faces the service drive on Six Mile Road and I sit there in my living
room and I can watch these cars line up and the bus drops off right at Six Mile and
Fairlane – why a kid hasn’t been killed I don’t know with all these parents they block not
only my driveway I haven’t been able to go down the service drive because they have
been blocking the service drive. But actually when the kids are getting out of school –
off the school bus and I can see Stevenson right across – Stevenson and as far as the
day care I have no problem whatsoever with that.
Henzi: Thank you, anybody else?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 64 June 28, 2011
Mr. Kelly: My name is Paul Kelly and I live at 34937 West Chicago. I have two children
that I take to Danielle. I have been going to her for about two and-a-half years. I
personally do not do the dropping off in the morning I haven’t seen what it’s like in the
morning, but I do pick my daughters up in the evening and I pick them up at about 5:30
and at that time I have never experienced any kind of traffic. I haven’t even seen much
traffic over there at that time when I pick my daughters up, but I’m from Livonia and my
kids love Danielle and I would hate to see some reason why I would have to switch day
care providers because she does real well with my kids and I would like to keep them
there. Thanks.
Henzi: Thank you, anybody else?
Mr. Reese: David Reese 11400 Melrose. We are supporting Danielle. I have a
daughter and hopefully a soon to be son who also will be attending there. I drop off in
the morning and my wife picks up and the traffic is primarily due to the school that is
there. I’ve had some incidents where I couldn’t get out because of kids waiting there at
the bus stop but I’m usually in and out in less than probably five minutes and there’s
cars still there that when I dropped off are still waiting because the bus didn’t arrive or
anything like that. So, the traffic is bad there but it’s not because of the day care it’s
definitely because of all the school traffic that’s there.
Henzi: Thank you, anybody else? Okay. I don’t see anybody else. Will you read the
letters?
Caramagno: Sure. We have an approval from Michael and Sandra Seykell [34495
Wood] (letter read). Approval from Edna Shuttleworth [34475 Six Mile Road] (letter
read). An objection from David Walsh [34474 Grove Drive](letter read).
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: Can I ask Mrs. Bagley one more question?
Petitioner: Yes.
Harb: The pick up at 7:15 I’m guessing is for Holmes Middle School Junior High?
Petitioner: Yeah, probably Holmes.
Harb: Does Riley, the upper elementary, pick up in front of your house as well?
Petitioner: That one is directly in front of my driveway. They said that there were 24
other stops I’m not exactly sure where they all are. My son could be two of them right
there the pick up right in front of the house and then the drop off in the drive way.
Harb: But the only time that the kids are in front of your driveway is around the
7:15 pick up?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: Yeah, yeah that’s one stop and they’re waiting for the bus and the bus
actually – actually well there’s pictures where it just – it pulls in in front of the driveway
and that’s where they’re standing naturally but that’s – yeah, we’ve had to ask them to
move several times. So, that’s part of the reason why we called her if they could just
move it up to where there’s no anything like there’s just like my backyard and then the
neighbor’s backyard. I thought that would be a good solution.
Harb: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? Okay. Mrs. Bagley, is there something you would like to
say in closing?
Petitioner: The person that’s objected he is the one that has repeatedly objection he –
I’m pretty sure he is the one, he lives next to a group care home for adults mentally
challenged adults and I think, I’m not sure, but I think maybe he’s thinking I’m trying to
run another home like that and he’s not real happy living next to that home or something
like that. I can’t imagine why my little kids would bother anybody when you’ve got a
million little kids sitting at Cass just, you know, a block away from you. Why like just 10
or 12 more would be that much of a hindrance. So, that’s why I’m wondering if he’s
confusing that because he keeps, you know, it’s a day care home could mean adults or
children. S o, I’m wondering if that’s why he’s trying to block another home like that. I
don’t know, but other than that I don’t know what else to say.
Henzi: Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Boards comments
with Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Well, I was in favor of this before. I’ve been down that street during those times.
I happen to pick up some other children to go to Catholic Central at that time. I’ve seen
the congestion. I sympathize with you because when I drive down that street I go wow,
but I don’t believe that the Petitioner’s people are adding any real traffic to this street. It
is the other schools that are adding this traffic. I’ve seen the parents park up and down
the side streets and in bad weather especially in the wintertime. I’ve seen 10, 15 cars
waiting to drop off kids not only there but it seems to me there’s another bus stop close
to Six Mile so I’ll be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: This group day care has been operating for the past two years. There hasn’t
been any real issue. I believe there hasn’t been any real problems. I further believe
that one solution is to move the pick up for the middle school away from the driveway. I
really can’t see why we should deny something that’s been operating for the past two
years.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: Well, I don’t want businesses next to me in my neighborhood but that isn’t what
this case is about this evening. All this discussion on the traffic I’m going to agree with
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 64 June 28, 2011
Mr. Pastor the amount of extra traffic that business brings wouldn’t be discernable. I
don’t think on a school day you wouldn’t know if this business was open or closed. So,
I’m not concerned about that. As I look at the other items here, this is a permitted
business in the neighborhood so whether I’d like it next door to me or not isn’t pertinent.
As I look at the other conditions that have to be met, I think they’re all met and I would
be in approval of this.
Caramagno: This is a troubling case for me. It has been since day one. I appreciate
the fact you want to run a business and you do add a value. For those people who
don’t have care for their children they’ve got to have something and they clearly love
you or they wouldn’t show up like this. The problem is it’s a terrible location in my mind
for this. It’s just a part of these, these check lists on this resolution sheet are no traffic
or congestion hazards. There’s as many there as probably any place in this city in a
residential neighborhood right on your corner. You don’t have everything to do with it,
but it is a terrible location for people coming and going during school and traffic time in
my mind.
Petitioner: That’s one of the reasons why I wanted that house because it was on a
corner and it was going into an already busy street.
Caramagno: I understand that. It seems to make sense in that regard. One of the other
things we have here is drop off and pick up areas does not require backing into a major
road and the reason we don’t want people to back into a major road is because we don’t
want I’m sure accidents and trouble there. This is even more dangerous in my mind.
We’re backing in and out of kids standing for a school bus stop. That’s scary to me.
That’s why I’ve been basically against this. I wish you the best of luck but I’m going
against it right now.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Well, I think I voted no the last time. I voted yes the very first time you came
before us and I think what influenced me was there were issues brought to light by
neighbors that really weren’t your immediate neighbors. I think now with what you
brought in and what you’ve shown I think there is some real clarity here that I don’t think
those neighbors that are complaining have any idea of the congestion that comes
through the public school system there and its not really you that’s creating this. It’s
there because you have 24 bus stops in that area. So, I will be in support. I thought it
was a good location for a day care because you were so close to Six Mile and you
weren’t really coming back into the subdivision and because you were a corner lot, but I
would definitely encourage you and your husband to try to do something with what’s
going on right there with the bus stop just for safety, I mean, I don’t think its good. So, I
will be in support.
Henzi: I, too, will support the Petition. I think what you prepared tonight was excellent
and I agree with Mrs. Aloe that I think your neighbors believe that some of the folks who
were parked dropped off kids waiting for them to get the bus they think that they are
your customers and that’s why Mr. Walsh always writes that his egress from the sub
has been hampered by your customers. That’s my opinion. In any event, Mr.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 64 June 28, 2011
Caramagno makes a good point. This isn’t the quietest street that a day care could be
located on; however, I don’t see any traffic congestion problems and if I were the
Petitioner I would turn that around and say then why is LPS dropping off kids up and
down Fairlane Road. I think that its an okay road. I think that there are limited periods
of congestion, but I don’t think that it should stop the day care. So, because she
complies in all respects in my opinion I’ll vote yes. So, the floor is open for a motion.
Fisher: Mr. Chair, just so we’re clear all you have to do by way of the motion is indicate
that the required factors are met. It should be relatively easy.
Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Aloe:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2008-10-58 (Rehearing) (Tabled on May 24, 2011):
Danielle Bagley, 34496 Wood, Livonia, MI 48152 seeking a continuation of a
previous conditional use permit to operate a group day care for up to twelve
minor children, which the Petitioner now seeks permanent approval of the Zoning
Board of Appeals.
The property is located on the north side of Wood (34496) between Fairlane and Whitby
be granted inasmuch as the proposed group day care home meets the standards set
forth in the Zoning Ordinance, Section 4.11(b).
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Pastor, Aloe, Harb, Moran, Henzi
NAYS: Caramagno
Henzi: You’ve got it. You win. Good luck to you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 64 June 28, 2011
(7:38 #1/1159)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-26: Four Oaks Management, LLC, 2600 Auburn, Suite
220, Auburn Hills, MI 48326, on behalf of Lessee Hungry Howie’s Pizza, 30300
Stephenson Highway, Madison Heights, MI 48071, seeking to erect a wall sign
resulting in excess wall sign area.
Wall Sign Area
Allowed: 20 sq. ft.
Proposed: 31 sq. ft.
Excess: 11 sq. ft.
The property is located on the west side of Newburgh (8821) between Joy and Ann
Arbor Trail.
Henzi: Mr. Kearfott, anything to add to this case?
Kearfott: Not at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for Inspection?
Henzi: Hearing none, good evening. Can you introduce yourself, please?
Petitioner: Good evening. My name is John Venglarcik. I’m representing Hungry
Howie’s. I’m with Harmon Sign Company. Anything else?
Henzi: Can you tell us about the change in the signage and why you are requesting --
Petitioner: Hungry Howie’s has changed their logo. It’s being blown out across the
United States. Their old logo is being changed to this. You have probably seen some
of the locations. It is a trademark logo and this is now their corporate standard. With
that being said, we have started changing in different locations and we came to the
location here and this size of the letters that are currently there are about 15 and half
inches. The size of the letters we are proposing is a little bit smaller but because of the
capsule below it and the configuration and the way the square footage are measured
our square footage ends up over what the allowable square footage is allowed by the
ordinance. We were asked to present some of the reasons why we feel or why to justify
the need to have larger than what the ordinance allows and a couple of the concerns or
a couple of the unique situations that we have at this property are – this property sits
extremely far back. If you have been by the Hungry Howie’s there, the setback here is
well over 150 ft. from the road back to the property. I think the spirit of the ordinance is
a lot of these properties are sitting actually close so there’s usually a parking lot, a
single row of parking lot strip center or something, but this has a lot of other shops back
there. There’s a tremendous amount of parking so the setback is a lot further than what
is typical for a lot of strip centers. This location, and if you have seen the photos and
driven by the location, sits next to wall that protrudes out. So if you are heading
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 64 June 28, 2011
northbound, the sign is actually somewhat hidden behind that wall for a period of time
as well. The sign we are proposing and if you’ve seen the renderings, appearance wise
for what it was and what it is, is not it doesn’t look to be much different it’s just the fact
that now it’s stacked versus elongated. We have to box the entire sign. We have some
dead space on the corners which take up some of the square footage. I did tonight
drive by and just took some quick photos of the rest of the shopping center. So, I
maybe I’ll pass these around.
Henzi: Yes.
Petitioner: Can I pass these around? If you take a look at them, Hungry Howie’s is on
the far left and then you can see some of the other signs just stand out more where ours
kind of blends in. We don’t want to make it any smaller. Those letters right now are 15
and half inches tall. The letters we are going to put on are going to be 15. So, they are
going to be a half inch shorter, but what we have done in the design of the sign is made
it more legible. That old Hungry Howie's logo with brown border around it – even
though the current letters are 15 and a half inches tall, it’s got an opaque brown border
around it so the center of the letter is really only maybe 12 now. So, we’ll get a little
more bang for our buck with the 15 inch letter even though it’s smaller than the 15 and a
half. That’s the basis of our appeal to the Board that the setback is maybe a little bit
further than it should be and it makes it a little harder to read from the road because of
the distance. The size of the letters is comparable to, you know, if you look at those
pictures you can see the other properties. Our sign is not going to over power any of
the other buildings, it will just blend in. If there are any questions you have for me.
Henzi: I have one or two. What are the landlord’s requirements? I mean are you still –
could you go even bigger according to the landlord?
Petitioner: We have landlord approval. Excuse me?
Henzi: Could you go even bigger according to the landlord?
Petitioner: Potentially, I don’t know the answer to that question. I’m sorry, I don’t.
Henzi: So, the landlord is behind this?
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: Okay. Can you talk about illumination? Is it going to be the same as it exists
now?
Petitioner: Yeah, we have taken, as we have done with other programs, everything now
has become illuminated with LED’s. And LED’s have, you know, there’s lower power
consumption and lower voltage. So, we’re using a 12 volt power source versus 120
volts. So, the chance of fire and some of those things is reduced. The power
consumption with this set of letters is reduced as well. The illumination will be
comparable, you know, obviously they want to make – we want these letters, we want
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 64 June 28, 2011
them to be bright so you can see them. The intent is to make it visible from the road,
but it is being done with a more eco-friendly power source and lighting source.
Henzi: Okay. Any other questions?
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Harb: It’s Vingor?
Petitioner: Yep, very good. Take that C out of the end of it then.
Harb: Can you tell me what the current signage square footage is for Hungry Howie’s
Pizza?
Petitioner: It is – what we say and if our dimensions are correct, it’s written down in
here. I think we’re asking for 30 and it’s like 20? I knew I would need my glasses.
Harb: Is it 15 feet by 15 inches?
Petitioner: Totaling 31 – excuse me?
Harb: If it’s 15 feet by about 16 inches?
Petitioner: The current letters are 15 and a half inches tall by 15 feet long and so that
totals – let’s see, the new sign totals 31.17 --
Harb: So, this about 20 square feet.
Petitioner: Yeah, that’s why I think we went from 20 to 30. Like I said, the current sign is
just one rectangle, the flavored crust and – you get a lot of dead space on, you know,
even by boxing the bottom, your decinders on letters and your lower case y, if you could
box just the Hungry without the decinder and the capsule probably over still by a little
bit, by four, five maybe three, four, five – three square feet or something like that. We’re
probably a lot closer. The actual size of the sign is really close to the same.
Harb: The new sign of Hungry Howie's is only going to be around 11 and a quarter feet
versus 15 feet?
Petitioner: That’s correct.
Harb: And the height is going to be a little bit bigger?
Petitioner: Taller.
Harb: Taller.
Petitioner: Correct.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 64 June 28, 2011
Harb: Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants
to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up to the table. I don’t see anyone
coming forward. Can you read the letters, please?
Caramagno: We have an approval from Karen Bennett [37576 Northfield](letter read).
An approval from Carole Campbell [8881 Newburgh](letter read). We have a letter from
Ruth White [37717 Northfield] approval (letter read).
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: Before you make your closing comments, I’m curious is this a corporate store, a
franchise, what is it?
Petitioner: I think it’s a franchise store. There’s really hardly any corporate stores.
Steven Jackson owns a few stores.
Moran: So per the franchise agreement, do you know the answer to this question? Are
they required to make this change?
Petitioner: Yes.
Moran: Okay.
Petitioner: Yes, they are required to change the signs. When their franchise agreement
comes up, all of them will eventually have to make the change.
Moran: You say when it comes up, is this one coming up?
Petitioner: They wouldn’t spend the money if it wasn’t. So, I would say yes.
Moran: Thank you.
Henzi: Along those lines are you doing this with franchisees all over the country?
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: Okay, anything else? Is there anything you would like to say in closing?
Petitioner: No.
Henzi: Okay. Thank you.
Petitioner: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 64 June 28, 2011
Henzi: I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr.
Harb.
Harb: I can support. I believe there is a uniqueness due to the fact that there is 150 foot
setback. I believe further that this is a corporate logo that is going to be standard
through the U.S. and I can see that this sign consistent with the other neighboring store
fronts.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: I agree with Mr. Harb. Most persuasive for me is it is consistent with the
neighboring signs. I don’t think it will stand out in an unusual way at all. At first glance
of 55% overage seems like an awful lot, but we’re still only dealing with 11 feet overage
so and the store is setback a long way from the road. I think it is a very reasonable
presentable. I could read all the letters on that strip mall very well with what’s there and
I think this will fit in very well. So, I will be in approval.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Yes, what you present here tonight looks to be more effective for grabbing
customers, easier seen from the road. It is not overpowering whatsoever and it will fit in
well. So, I am in support.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: I am going to agree with all the comments made by the other Board members. I
will be support.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I can support this.
Henzi: I, too, will support for all the reasons. I think it was somewhat difficult to see –
the existing was somewhat difficult to see, this will be an improvement. So, the floor is
open for a motion.
Upon Motion by Moran, supported by Harb:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-26: Four Oaks Management, LLC, 2600
Auburn, Suite 220, Auburn Hills, MI 48326, on behalf of Lessee Hungry Howie’s
Pizza, 30300 Stephenson Highway, Madison Heights, MI 48071, seeking to erect
a wall sign resulting in excess wall sign area.
Wall Sign Area
Allowed: 20 sq. ft.
Proposed: 31 sq. ft.
Excess: 11 sq. ft.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 64 June 28, 2011
The property is located on the west side of Newburg (8821) between Joy and Ann Arbor
Trail, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the franchise agreement requires
franchisee to update Hungry Howie’s store sign.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because in order to comply with the franchise agreement they would have to go
with letters that would not be practical or visible from the main road of Newburg.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in the
spirit of the zoning ordinance because the sign would be consistent with other
signage in that strip mall.
4. The Board received three letters of approval and no letters of objection.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of
the Master Plan because the property is classified as General Commercial under
the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that
classification.
FURTHER, this variance be granted with the following conditions:
1. That the sign be built as presented to the Board.
2. That the construction of the sign be completed within one (1) year.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Moran, Harb, Aloe, Caramagno, Pastor, Henzi
NAYS: None
Henzi: The variance is granted with those two conditions. You have to erect the sign as
presented and completed within one year.
Petitioner: What is the procedure? Do I get a letter and then pull my permit?
Harb: Can I move to waive the five day requirement?
Moran: Does he care?
Henzi: Do you need to do this immediately?
Petitioner: No. If you have a waiting period of five days, we’re good.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 64 June 28, 2011
______________________________________________________________________
APPEAL CASE NO. 2010-06-29: Mark Lozano, 19210 Antago, Livonia, MI 48152,
seeking to erect a covered front porch resulting in deficient front yard setback.
Front Yard Setback
Required: 25.0 ft.
Proposed: 22.3 ft.
Deficient: 2.7 ft.
The property is located on the east side of Antago (19210) between Bridge and Seven
Mile Road.
Henzi: Mr. Kearfott, anything to add to this case?
Kearfott: Not at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for Inspection?
Petitioner: Mark Lozano, 19210 Antago.
Henzi: Mr. Lozano, why do you want to construct a front porch?
Petitioner: Well, I’m looking to weatherize the front door. Currently it’s open. I know I
submitted pictures with the application. Not only that, for economical reasons to keep
the house cooler. Currently, we’re facing the west and with the west sun our air
conditioner is running all the time. And hopefully with a covered porch that will help cool
the house down. Currently, we have just a slab in the front yard I can’t enjoy the front
yard like sitting on the porch what I use to do back at mom’s and dad’s back in the day.
My kids are grown now if by chance we’re blessed with grandkids, I’d love to be able to
sit out on a nice porch with them and enjoy the front view of the house and tell them the
stories about all their parents growing up.
Henzi: When I drove down Antago, I noticed that there were quite a few homes that had
awnings or covered porches including your next door neighbor. How long has your
neighbor had that porch?
Petitioner: Every bit of 18 years, yeah, every bit. And if you notice driving down Antago
my little section of our neighborhood block there is kind of a mishmash of homes.
Another reason for the covered front porch I think it would provide more uniformity
throughout our little area there.
Henzi: Any questions?
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 64 June 28, 2011
Pastor: This front porch that you’re building it’s not going to be any larger than your
existing slab?
Petitioner: With the plans I submitted it was 19 feet across the front of the home.
Pastor: Okay.
Petitioner: By six feet deep.
Pastor: It is going to be quite a bit larger than the existing slab. Okay. Do you plan on
doing any brick work on your existing slab? It looks like you have some decay in your
brick.
Petitioner: Well, that’s another reason why I want a new front porch. I know we have to
replace that.
Pastor: Thank you.
Petitioner: Okay.
Henzi: Can you tell us a little bit about the building materials? You’re going to pour a
concrete porch and then are you going to have shingles to match – that sort of thing?
Petitioner: Well, what we plan to do is remove the concrete and the brick and come in
with wood. We’re going to make a wood porch. If you did drive around the
neighborhood, you’ll notice that there are quite a few homes switching over to wood
porches and taking out their current concrete slabs and their brick work, again,
economical wise cheaper.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: Financially.
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: I’m going to tell you I’m in support of this already, but I can’t tell from your plans
– I’m a bean counter not an architect. So, tell me you’re going to remove the existing
porch.
Petitioner: Correct.
Moran: It’s in disrepair. The new porch is going to come out how far from the home?
Petitioner: From the home six feet.
Moran: Six feet, and it’s going to go from the door a little bit north.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: From the current north side of the slab.
Moran: Okay, all the way across.
Petitioner: All the way across to the south side which is 19 feet.
Moran: Okay. And railing or – is that, am I supposed to be getting that from these
plans?
Petitioner: I believe code is 20 inches and I am going to be below that 20 inch threshold
for railings.
Moran: My only concern, fellas, is that it be built as presented and I can’t tell what I’m
approving.
Aloe: And you don’t know what’s holding it up either.
Moran: I’m very much in support for all the reasons you mentioned, a fellow should be
able to go into his door without getting rained on western faced, but I’d just like to know
what I’m approving. What the end product might look like and I’m not getting that; are
you guys?
Petitioner: I did submit a rough sketch also. I believe I brought a copy of that with the
original plans and the application.
Moran: Is it more than these three pages that I have?
Fisher: What he’s asking is, what are the building materials? Are those all wood?
Petitioner: Yes, it’s all wood, brick and treated wood.
Kearfott: I think what he’s asking, too, is your little half gables on the shed roof what
type of material that’s going to be. It shows like a siding up there.
Petitioner: The siding I just recently found a shed garage siding type material at Home
Depot, RE treated kind of like a plastic coating. The roof itself will be shingled to go with
the conformity of the house itself.
Moran: Mr. Kearfott, my question of you is if we were to approve to this evening and say
a condition is to build as presented, when you inspect do you know, do you have
adequate information to determine that it is built as presented this evening? I guess we
know the dimensions, we know it’s going to be made of wood. I want to get this done
but whatever you guys think.
Kearfott: Well, there’s a not whole lot to the imagination except for what type of material
he is going to use on the half gables. That’s about it. The rest of it – your rakes and
your fascias are obviously going to be some kind of prime. Is he going to wrap it with
aluminum?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: Not to begin with since I’m using pressure treated.
Kearfott: Is it going to be painted?
Petitioner: Yeah, yeah, painted or stained.
Kearfott: I think what they’re getting at is that you didn’t indicate any of that on here so
nobody really would have an idea of what your intention of the finished product would
be so if they said build as presented, nobody is quite sure what that exactly is.
Petitioner: Okay. We’re eventually going to stain it, stain it possibly a red wood because
our current brick work is somewhat of a darker red.
Kearfott: Did I add any clarity there?
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: I want you to take a look at that picture, the front, right and then I want you to
take a look at the roof line and see if what Mr. Lozano is asking for the porch to go all
the way to the end. I don’t think this lean-to roof line can actually fit underneath the
roof, the current roof --
Kearfott: Unless it was flat.
Harb: Right. It won’t work.
Henzi: Do you know what he’s saying?
Petitioner: Yeah, yeah, I do.
Harb: How’s that going to work? I don’t understand that. It seems like it could only
start from right above the southern part of the front window. It couldn’t go any further
than that unless you’re going to have the roof come down.
Petitioner: Well, the home when we bought it did have an awning on there and from the
former awning anchor points that’s where it was – basically what you mentioned above
the window towards the furthest point.
Harb: Right, but Mr. Lozano, the roof that you’re presenting to us, I believe in my
opinion, is in no way going to match up with the pictures that you showed us. It just
won’t fit the roof.
Petitioner: From the calculations were correct. I double checked.
Harb: Visually it doesn’t make sense.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: Visually it doesn’t, but excuse me, with all due respect if it works on paper, it
should work in application
Harb: Show me where the roof is going to be.
Pastor: The top of the roof?
Harb: Well, you can’t have it slanted six feet out. It’s got to be straight across, right?
Petitioner: I’m going to anchor the ledger boards six inches above the current window
line.
Harb: And then it’s going to lean forward - lean back or forward?
Petitioner: Forward.
Harb: Are you going to be able to open your front door?
Petitioner: Yes.
Kearfott: The door swings in unless it’s a storm door.
Harb: What angle is that going to be the slope? If it’s six inches above the window and
you have a slope - that to me makes little sense. I guess I can say that since I’m not
going to be around. Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions? So just to confirm, it’s an awning style but you’re going to
shingle it.
Petitioner: Right.
Henzi: To match what exists.
Petitioner: Shingled to match the current residence, right.
Henzi: Any other questions? Mr. Lozano, I thought of another question. Are you going
to build this, or did you hire somebody?
Petitioner: I will be building it.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 64 June 28, 2011
Caramagno: Sir, do you intend for the sidewalk to remain in the same place, just
straight up and then you’re going to walk up on to a step and then up on to a wooden
deck?
Petitioner: That’s correct.
Caramagno: There will be no railing you’re saying around the deck?
Petitioner: Again, if I’m not mistaken, I believe the code was 20 inches that you have to
reach that before a railing is required.
Caramagno: Yes, but it will just look like --
Petitioner: I will be putting a railing in to go around eventually but not immediately.
Caramagno: I’m kind of looking down the lines with Terry here so I’m trying to visualize
and kind of guess – I’m trying to visualize what this is going to look like. I had
something completely – I struggle with your drawings like maybe some of the others did.
So, what this is going to look like we’re going to go from the north end of your concrete
slab all the way to the south end of your house.
Petitioner: That’s correct.
Caramagno: And that will be six feet out from the brick and it will be wood. It will be
wood like a pallet or some sort, like a deck pallet or something?
Petitioner: Yes.
Caramagno: Yes, and then where are the uprights at for the roofing? I don’t see that on
here with any type of measurement, how many those are there are going to be. I don’t
see anything like that here so one on either side of the door and then one on the end of
the house?
Petitioner: One towards the north side of the current porch.
Caramagno: Okay.
Petitioner: Okay. One more at the south side of the current porch and then we’ll have
another one at the very south of the corner.
Caramagno: Okay and then style as far as trim. What are you going to have for trim?
The roof is going to come down from the house lower towards the street so it drains.
What about the finish on this, it’s all going to be stained red wood or are you going to
have any siding?
Petitioner: Staining it red wood.
Caramagno: How does W olmanized look stained red wood?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 64 June 28, 2011
Pastor: You can do it.
Caramagno: It looks natural? Isn’t it kind of a green, a green wood?
Pastor: Yeah, but it stains.
Caramagno: Stain takes it?
Pastor: Yes.
Caramagno: Okay. That’s all I’ve got. Thank you.
Henzi: Anything else? Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or
against this project; if so, come on up to the table. I see no one here for this project.
Can you read the letters?
Caramagno: We have an approval from Sally Rowe [19200 Antago] (letter read).
Henzi: Mr. Lozano, is there anything you would like to say in closing?
Petitioner: No, I think I covered all the bases.
Henzi: Thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and being the Board’s
comments with Mr. Moran.
Moran: I think I already made some of my comments. I’d very much like to see the
Petitioner have this for the reasons I stated. All I would add is obviously it’s going to
meet code or he wouldn’t be here. All I would add is when someone else does the
resolution that we make certain that it is something that the Inspection Department can
review to insure that the finished product is in compliance with the stated conditions, but
I’d very much like to see it. I think it would be a nice improvement to your home and to
your neighborhood and I think you’re entitled to it. The last thing I want to address
because it’s why we are here supposedly is the front yard setback variance which we
didn’t talk about. It’s de minimis, it’s 10 percent. Here I go with my percentages again.
It’s two and a half feet nobody would notice if you were walking by and it’s consistent
with others in the neighborhood. So, I have no issue with that aspect of it either.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: I think the house needs a porch. It needs a porch rebuilt that’s clear.
What is there now is in disrepair. You can see by the photos submitted by your
neighbor that the sun is beating on your house and a roof structure would help
dramatically like you said. I’m not crazy about the drawings. I don’t understand them,
but then again that’s not my bag either. I would trust that you’re going to build
something that would add value to your house and to the neighborhood and the
Inspection Department is going to make sure that it is that. The setback again, I agree
with Terry, it’s not going to be noticed. This neighborhood has a variety of homes,
styles, types and this won’t detract from that at all.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 64 June 28, 2011
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: I would agree. This is a street with a lot of different style homes. This home had
an awning. Other homes in the area have covered roofs and as long as it’s 19 by 6 and
it’s 22.3 feet on the setback and it meets the codes I don’t have any issues with it.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Well, I agree with the rest of the others than I’m not comfortable with the
drawings and/or what’s going on here. I happen to be in the business and I look at
these drawings and I have a lot of questions. As presented, I don’t think I can support
this. I believe you need something. I believe you even deserve something. I just don’t
like how this is designed. So, as of this particular moment I will not be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: I believe that the Petitioner deserves the setback variance. I think the deficiency
at 2.7 feet – it’s not a problem. However, the covered porch does not work. I believe
that the drawings are inconsistent with what he is trying to accomplish and take a look
at the pictures that were submitted you can see where the awning lines were, but what
he is asking for is an additional four to six inches above that line and the slope would
not be consistent with the rest of the neighborhood. I would approve the porch but not
the covered porch. I will approve in part, deny in part.
Henzi: I agree with the other Board members the porch is necessary. I was confused
by the drawings. I understand that it can be an awning style roof. I can’t visualize it
because this is a model that appears throughout that subdivision. I remember seeing
awnings. I don’t remember seeing any other covered front porches on this style of
home and in that respect the Petitioner is sort of up against it, I mean the style of your
home doesn’t lend connecting to the existing gable. I’d really like to see the drawings, I
mean in all fairness. I’d like to see the drawings for a couple reasons. Number one, if
we just turn it over to Inspection, if there’s a problem they’re going to wind up designing
it for you any way or you’re going to put an awning back up. Here they can help you
and then you can have some control over it and come back to us. I think that would be
fair to you. I would go along with tabling like Mr. Pastor suggested for the reasons that
Mr. Pastor suggested. The floor is open for a motion.
Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Caramagno, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-29: Mark Lozano, 19210 Antago, Livonia,
MI 48152, seeking to erect a covered front porch resulting in deficient front yard
setback.
Front Yard Setback
Required: 25.0 ft.
Proposed: 22.3 ft.
Deficient: 2.7 ft.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 64 June 28, 2011
The property is located on the east side of Antago (19210) between Bridge and Seven
Mile Road, be tabled so the Petitioner can consider the Board’s comments and return
with a revised plan.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Pastor, Caramagno, Aloe, Moran, Henzi
NAYS: Harb
Henzi: This is tabled. This next available meeting is July 26th, get your packet in by
June 30th to get that date. You might want to talk to Scott or the others in the
Inspection Department about what we’re looking for in terms of roof line.
Petitioner: Okay. Thanks.
Henzi: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 64 June 28, 2011
______________________________________________________________________________
(8:15 #1/2306)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-30: James Zakem, 8815 Georgia, Livonia, MI 48150,
seeking to construct an attached garage upon a corner lot resulting in deficient
corner side street setback.
Corner Side Street Setback
Required: 25.00 ft.
Proposed: 19.35 ft.
Deficient: 5.65 ft.
The property is located on the west side of Georgia (8815) between Joy and Hees.
Henzi: Mr. Kearfott, anything to add?
Kearfott: Not at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Kearfott? Hearing none, good evening, can you introduce
yourself?
Petitioner: Yes, my name is Jim Zakem. I’m at 8815 Georgia Street. I’m going to pass
out some signatures that we obtained petitions from some neighbors in Livonia.
Henzi: What would you like to tell us about the garage you purpose?
Petitioner: Well, I would like to add a garage on the side of my house. The back yard is
structured with a deck, a shed and a large tree coming off of Joy Road that would have
to be removed to put a garage in my back yard plus the deck would have to go away
and a side door wall would have to go away. And I would have no real useable
backyard should I turn this garage around and come off of Joy Road. When I
purchased the house in 2008, the previous owners and this was my mistake, had
mentioned that there was a 15 foot variance. So I went with that assumption and
design everything in that way and then found out it was a 25 foot variance. And I
considered trying to turn it around and, you know, the things that I had written was the
fact that the deck would have to go, the shed would really kind of have to come down
and like I said there’s a vibrant, beautiful, actually a nice shade tree, it gives us a lot of
shade and keeps the house nice and cool that would have to come down to create a
garage from that other direction. There is a privacy fence as – I don’t know if you have
the satellite photo – okay. There is a privacy fence that comes out right at the same
spot where the garage would end that would block the view from the neighbor so he
really wouldn’t be, have any new obstructions that not already there and in existence
and it would also break up that line of sight that I’m sure the variance, the 25 foot line is
there for that would kind of break up that line of sight so it wouldn’t stand out like an
albatross as you’re driving down Joy Road. And it would fit in naturally with the way the
neighborhood kind of blends and still give us a workable backyard that we can enjoy
with the benefits we already have. The theme of the garage would be, the front would
be exactly as the house is with partial brick, partial sandstone. The side I would do
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 64 June 28, 2011
aluminum siding and the back would be aluminum siding. I would attach to the outside
wall of the house, leave the brick from the original house as my inside wall of the garage
and match the roof line of the house to keep the continuity of the fixtures all the same.
Henzi: Okay. The only question I have is, are you going to keep the parking spot?
Petitioner: On Joy Road?
Henzi: Yes.
Petitioner: Actually, yes, I was considering doing that.
Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioner?
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: Can I just kind of take a crack at summarizing as I see it? The only other way
that you could reasonably put a garage on this property and I don’t know if you
considered attached or detached it would be adjacent, but would be to come off Joy
Road, remove a part of your – it would be 25 feet off the easement. You obviously can’t
do it on the side of your home so it would have to be the rear line of your home. That
would go into your current deck so you’d have to remove part of your deck; is that
accurate?
Petitioner: Yeah, that’s the way I – yes.
Moran: And if you wanted to have a detached garage, you’d have to go further to the
west and that would be encumbered by that large tree that’s currently there.
Petitioner: Yes, and well I also have a 12 foot easement from the fence line which limits
--
Moran: What is at the southwest corner of your home?
Petitioner: That’s a shed. Southwest corner, oh I’m sorry, southwest.
Moran: Southwest corner of your home, what room is that. The one where the deck is
located, where you have the 14 --
Petitioner: That’s our living room.
Moran: That’s your living room.
Petitioner: Yeah, living and dining room.
Moran: Is there a window there?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: There is a – are you talking towards the back? Yeah, the southwest, there’s
a door wall there.
Moran: There’s a door wall that allows you to walk out on to your deck?
Petitioner: On to the deck, yes, a sliding door wall.
Moran: So again in summary and I’m not suggesting this practical, sir, to me it’s your
uniqueness and your hardship, but in order to comply with the code you would have to
put it there coming off Joy Road and then in order to get depth you require being 25 feet
off the easement off Joy Road and then 20 foot depth that you’re requesting, you would
be blocking your dining room window or your door wall. I got it. Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: Mr. Zakem, why 20 x 26? Why not 22 x 26, or 24 x 24?
Petitioner: Because of the 15 foot. As I said, when I bought the house, I thought there
were 15 feet from the sidewalk on Joy Road side so I decided that rather than do a 24 x
24 which would be past that 15 foot mark, I would go 20 feet wide but go deep to make
up for the width that I didn’t have and give me storage in the back of the garage and still
be able to fit two cars in the driveway.
Harb: Now according to this drawing, it shows that at 20 feet you have a 17 ½ foot
setback; is that correct?
Petitioner: These were the drawings that I was actually assisted by with --
Harb: Are we really talking about a 19 foot setback or a 17 foot setback?
Petitioner: I’m not sure I understand that question.
Kearfott: Well, he’s required at 25 foot setback.
Harb: Right, right, but according to this drawing it shows 17 ½ feet.
Petitioner: From the one foot easement line from the sidewalk there’s 17 ½ feet that
brings me out to the 20 foot of my garage width.
Kearfott: Yeah, I think you’re just looking at it in reverse.
Harb: So, if he had a 22 foot garage you’re saying that the proposed would go down to
17.35? If he wanted a 24, it would be 15 feet. Okay. Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 64 June 28, 2011
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: If I asked you not to use the driveway that comes off the main road, what would
you say to that?
Petitioner: If you asked me not to?
Pastor: Yes, if you had to give that up to get the --
Petitioner: I wouldn’t have a problem with that.
Pastor: Thank you.
Petitioner: That’s there it’s just --
Pastor: I understand. Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Moran: Mr. Chair, I actually have one more.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: As I look at this drawing more carefully. If you come out 26 feet --
Petitioner: No, we’re coming out 20 feet.
Moran: I beg your pardon. I’m looking at the garage, what will be the front of the garage
on the east side of the home.
Petitioner: Uh-huh.
Moran: Do you notice how the drawing is currently – you have, I can’t tell, two, three,
four feet that creates a three-sided rectangle there?
Petitioner: Yes.
Moran: What is there? What is in that spot?
Petitioner: Well, there is a front porch and then there are just some flowers and bushes.
We also have a bay window off the front of the house which sits kind of in the middle of
that.
Moran: Where I’m going with this is if you were to make this deficiency 17 feet would
you rather have it line up with your bay window because currently you are going to
create a little area there from what I can see in order to get the --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: Yes, I understand what you’re saying and initially, when I initially started to
plan this I was going to go flush with the front of the house and long to the back of the
house.
Moran: Okay.
Petitioner: But the problem we ran into in speaking with the people from Home Depot
and my contractor who is going to assist me with building the garage to follow the roof
line and keep the pitch of the back of the roof to match the house, it would be easier if
we pulled the front of the garage forward and matched the back of the house. That’s
why I went with that direction to get a better alignment with valleys of the roof and keep
it more.
Moran: So, it wouldn’t be practical to have the garage the same depth as the house and
wider than what you currently asked and get rid of that little boxed in area?
Petitioner: Wider wouldn’t bother me it just takes me deeper into the obstruction of the,
you know, going over that 25 foot line. Yes, but, I was trying to --
Moran: I personally would consider it. I don’t have a big hang up that especially when I
look at the construction behind him that the line is a lot closer to Joy Road already
anyway.
Petitioner: Plus there is about a 20 foot boulevard on the other side of the sidewalk
that’s all grass which I get to cut.
Henzi: Can you say one more time what your thought was?
Moran: My thought was instead of making it fairly deep and narrower, would it be
aesthetically more pleasing and practical to make it – I’m going to guess, 22 feet in
depth and 24 feet wide; therefore, asking for a larger variance which may give other
issues, other notices that have to be put forth, but what caught my attention is it makes
sense to me to line up with the home and look like an attached garage because he’s
creating this in order to get the area he wants, he’s creating this little – I’m calling it a
three corner spot there and I’m just asking what Petitioner would like and what
aesthetically pleasing.
Henzi: So, it looks more like that.
Moran: Yeah, and I’m suggesting that it isn’t completely inconsistent with what I see to
the west of him and as the Petitioner has pointed out another uniqueness is the fact that
unless Joy Road gets expanding there which could happen some time in the future,
none of us, but he’s got exceptionally large easement between the sidewalk and the
current road. I’m just offering that as another – he’s going to be here a long time, given
the Petitioner what he wants or what’s best for him I mean to say, but I just throw that
out for possible discussion.
Harb: Mr. Chair.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 64 June 28, 2011
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: Would that mean that new notices would need to be sent out or would we be able
to approve this smaller variance?
Fisher: Terry’s proposal entails a bigger variance. So, yes, you would have to have
new notices.
Harb: Did you understand what Mr. Moran was asking?
Petitioner: Yeah, I think I do. He’s concerned about the front of the house coming out.
Harb: What he was saying basically instead of having a 20 x 26 having a 22 x 24.
Moran: Or something like that.
Harb: Or something like that.
Moran: I don’t know if we can craft it right here, but what I was suggesting it might look
more like this.
Petitioner: Uh-huh.
Moran: But again, I’m only here to suggest, get what you want and what your needs are.
Petitioner: Again, the reason initially I was going to go the 20 foot this way and 26 feet
back here which would put me back here which I don’t have a problem with.
Moran: But you have the roof line problem.
Petitioner: But the roof line problem came in. So, even to bring this back --
Moran: This would remove that though because you’d just be extending your roof line I
would guess.
Petitioner: No, that was – well, I see what you’re saying. I see what you’re saying
shortening it up but widening it out.
Moran: It looks like an attached garage, anyway just a thought.
Harb: So, let me ask the question again. Would you prefer that or would you prefer to
go with what you have?
Petitioner: Actually, I’d prefer to go with what I have. I’m okay with the 20 foot wide and
I like the 26 deep because it gives me room in the back for storage.
Henzi: Any other questions?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 64 June 28, 2011
Aloe: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: This is to Scott. He’s not over with the size of that shed in the garage, is he?
Kearfott: I don’t believe so.
Petitioner: I did the math and I believe it was 19 percent with the shed, the house and
the garage. I have an awfully big lot. I have that written up somewhere.
Henzi: Anything else?
Caramagno: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Just a couple questions for you, sir. The front of the garage where the
garage door is going to be on either side of it to the north or south, you are going to
have brick coming up and then what is the sandstone you mentioned? What is that
above there?
Petitioner: I have some pictures of the front of the house. It had some included in the
package.
Caramagno: Is it going to match what’s on your house?
Petitioner: Yes, yes.
Caramagno: Where are you getting brick for the front? Where does that come from?
I’m assuming you want it to match your home where does that come from?
Petitioner: I still have to find that, I have not yet. I was kind of waiting to get the okay to
get the garage built before I really did and I’ve got a couple places that I’m going to go
to.
Caramagno: Your place is very nice. It’s brick. The only siding you have is up top
above the windows. Have you given any consideration to having brick along the Joy
Road side of the garage?
Petitioner: I have and I guess my biggest thing is cash, the amount of the expense and
if I can afford to make to it fit with the money set aside then I would brick it.
Caramagno: I just asked because I think it would make your whole project look a lot
better in my mind. So, I just wanted to know if you thought about that. How about the
driveway coming down to the curb, I’m assuming you have to do a curb cut here. What
kind of driveway are you putting in?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: My contractor is here and he can give you – my cement contractor.
Contactor: We figured on doing a curb cut like the normal procedure and slope it down.
Caramagno: Is it going to be a concrete driveway?
Contractor: Right.
Caramagno: How wide?
Petitioner: 16 ft.
Caramagno: 16 ft. wide driveway, cement?
Petitioner: Yes.
Caramagno: The only other question I had was your basement windows. It looks like
basement windows here. What happens to them if they come in to the garage? Are
these basement windows here?
Petitioner: Those are glass blocked windows, yes.
Caramagno: What happens to them when you put the garage in? Do they get covered?
They stay the same, what happens there?
Contractor: I think we were just going to cover them over and put like an expansion or
something.
Caramagno: What’s an expansion?
Contractor: It’s the felt they use, you know, concrete to concrete.
Caramagno: They just get covered up. So, there’s no other chance of windows in there
– there’s not windows in there that will be able to be opened and let exhaust go into that
house or something?
Contactor: I don’t think there’s any vent windows, it’s just glass block.
Caramagno: Okay. So, you don’t have to add flip downs?
Petitioner: No, I have one on the other side of the basement, but not on that side.
Caramagno: All right, that’s just the questions I had. Thanks.
Henzi: Anything else? I had one more. Why do you need the shed if you’re granted the
approval to build the garage?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: Well, one because the shed was there when I purchased the house. I would
keep the lawn mower equipment and things like that in the shed and I do a little bit of
wood work and putz on my own vehicles so I have a tool box and some other stuff that I
would store in the garage with tools and some other equipment. So, the shed is
convenient to keep the lawn equipment in the shed and my other equipment in the
garage, but I don’t necessarily need the shed once I get the garage, but it is a nice
convenience. And it is a healthy and very well maintained shed with a cement slab.
Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone who wants to speak for or
against this project? If so, come on up to the table. No one is here for this case. Can
you read the letters?
Caramagno: Gerald Clark [32898 Joy Road] approves (letter read). John Dluski at
[8827 Georgia] approves (read letter). Kenneth & Cathleen Elstone [8912 Georgia]
approves (letter read). Lois Lasater-Zakem [8815 Georgia] writes an approval (letter
read). Roger and Kathleen Linder [32871 Joy Road] approve (letter read). Larry Line
[8925 Georgia] an approval (letter read) and we’ve got an approval sheet from Edward
Bryant [32851 Joy Road], Roger Linder at [32871 Joy Road] and Kathleen Linder at
[32871 Joy Road] (letter read).
Henzi: Mr. Zakem, is there anything you would like to say in closing?
Petitioner: No, I think I’ve said it.
Henzi: Thank you
Petitioner: Thank you.
Henzi: I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with
Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Well, you certainly need a garage. I don’t know how you live without a
garage putting your things away. It’s quite a project when you’re talking about putting a
driveway into Georgia Street concrete and all. It looks like it’s going to be well built
according to the plan. I personally would like to see a little brick on that Joy Road side
since you’ve got the material already, it’s a matter of taking it down and putting it up. It
comes across I understand, but what you have is nice and this would enhance that. So,
I’ll support it as it is and if you put brick on I’ll only be happier.
Henzi: Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: I will also be in support. I think this is a nice addition to this house and it definitely
needs a garage. He’s got a large corner lot. So, I will be in support.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I also will be in support.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 64 June 28, 2011
Henzi: Mr. Harb
Harb: The garage will definitely add value to the neighborhood. He needs a garage.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: I’m in support. I can’t see any other way to put a garage on this property and I
think to only be 20 feet wide is quite reasonable and I think there is unique
circumstances being along Joy Road with that unusually wide easement. I think it is
consistent with the rest of the neighborhood. So, I will be in support as well.
Henzi: I agree for all those reasons so I, too, will vote to approve the variance. The floor
is open for a motion.
Upon Motion by Aloe, supported by Pastor, it was:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-30: James Zakem, 8815 Georgia, Livonia,
MI 48150, seeking to construct an attached garage upon a corner lot resulting in
deficient corner side street setback.
Corner Side Street Setback
Required: 25.00 ft.
Proposed: 19.35 ft.
Deficient: 5.65 ft.
The property is located on the west side of Georgia (8815) between Joy and Hees be
granted for the following reasons and findings of fact:
1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the Petitioner is on a large
corner lot, does not have a garage and needs a garage.
2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner
because the Petitioner does need a garage.
3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties and in
the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because this is consistent with other homes
in the neighborhood who also have attached garages to their homes.
4. The Board received six letters of approval and no letters of objection.
5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective
of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low-density
Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not
inconsistent with that classification.
FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions:
1. That the garage be built as presented to the Board.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 64 June 28, 2011
2. That the variance is good for one (1) year.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Aloe, Pastor, Caramagno, Harb, Moran, Henzi
NAYS: None
Henzi: The variance is granted with those two conditions. You have to build it as you
presented to us tonight and then you have one year in which to complete the structure.
Petitioner: Thank you.
Henzi: Good luck.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 64 June 28, 2011
8:40 (#1/3184)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-31: Holy Transfiguration Orthodox Church, 36075 Seven
Mile Road, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to maintain a permanent 12’ x 95’
greenhouse, which is not allowed.
The property is located on the south side of Seven Mile Road (36075) between Fairway
and Van.
Henzi: Mr. Kearfott, anything to add to this case?
Kearfott: Not at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Kearfott?
Moran: Yes, Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: What is an R-4B Zoning District?
Kearfott: I did not get a chance to look that up.
Moran: I’m trying to look it up here and I’m not having much luck on page 17.
Fisher: It’s just a residential zoning district.
Kearfott: What gives it the B is what you’re asking?
Moran: Yes, I thought there might be a distinction, but I don’t know.
Fisher: Those are minimum house sizes, but I don’t know what the minimum house
size is.
Moran: That’s all right, Mike, I just wanted to be sure since it was adjacent to the
church. My second question is what is not allowed a greenhouse or this type of
structure or what is really not consistent with our code?
Fisher: Well, this type of structure is part of the problem. As you can, we’ve given you
another example from a case we had a few years ago and this actually has more than
just zoning problems; it’s also is not constructed according to code.
Kearfott: It’s more like a temporary structure.
Fisher: Yes, it’s built as if it were --
Moran: So, part of the appeal tonight is to have a structure that doesn’t meet code.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 64 June 28, 2011
Fisher: Well, and I guess --
Moran: If the structure met, Mike, would a greenhouse be allowed? I don’t think so.
Fisher: Well, no, I guess a greenhouse wouldn’t be allowed anyway, but certainly as in
this fashion it is problematic.
Moran: So, just so I’m clear. There’s two, really two violations if you will, or two things
that don’t meet our ordinance; one, the use of it and two, the type of structure not
meeting code?
Fisher: I guess you could say that.
Moran: Thank you. Sorry to be a pain, guys.
Kearfott: No, no, it’s all right. I agree. It’s unusual.
Henzi: Mike, you reference the other cases and that was in our packet. Do you know
whether that Petitioner took down the greenhouse or took the steps to build a rat wall
and make it a permanent structure?
Fisher: I don’t know the answer to that.
Henzi: Scott, do you know that?
Fisher: I guess I thought they took it down, but I honestly I don’t know.
Henzi: Okay, any other questions? Good evening.
Petitioner: My name is Rob Curtis. I’m a member of the Holy Transfiguration Parish on
Seven Mile where the structure is. I want to address a couple of the issues that you’ve
just discussed first. A year ago when we installed the structure someone from our
committee approached the City. I believe they had an informal discussion with someone
from the Planning Commission or someone from the Building Department, I’m not
certain - it wasn’t me so it was anecdotal, but we were told at the time that the
description that we gave would be considered a temporary structure and, therefore, it
would not be a problem. So, we installed it with a good faith belief that it was in
compliance with the ordinances. Upon receiving a notice of violation recently, I looked
into it further, talked even with the Planning Department at the recommendation of Jerry
Raycraft.
Kearfott: Yes, he’s in ordinance.
Petitioner: Yeah, and spoke to Scott Miller and showed him pictures of it and he was in
agreement that it would be considered a temporary structure. The problem up until just
now until the opinion that you guys are sharing was that the issue was that it was not –
the church is zoned as R1 and temporary structures or the ordinance that governs
temporary structures falls under zoning RUF, residential urban farming and that the
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 64 June 28, 2011
structure itself we consider to be temporary. It can be taken down in a few hours. It is
designed that way. It meets, I believe it meets the definition of temporary under the
RUF zoning ordinance. And it may vary, we have the ability to fix it to make it so that
it’s temporary under that definition and would like to continue using it under the
definition. I have questions as to – the original violation that we received had to do with
the zoning and so it’s all new to me that this structure issue now exists. I guess, I just
want to throw that out as a caveat and I don’t know what to do about that yet in terms of
this hearing because I’m curious – I’ve never had a discussion with Jerry about it not
being an appropriate structure. And so a decision tonight based upon the structure
itself, I’m completely and unprepared for. And, you know, maybe we can address that.
Henzi: Well, maybe I can make this suggestion. If you’re asking for more time to
respond to what you’ve heard tonight.
Petitioner: Yes.
Henzi: Then we can certainly do that and have you come back July 26th, but since we’re
here maybe you can at least fill us in about why you erected it, et cetera. It looks like
there might be a lot of folks here that want to talk about it and we can hear their
opinions and then --
Petitioner: They should all be weeding by the way.
Henzi: And then if you feel like you still need more time, then you can say I’d like to ask
for this to be rescheduled.
Petitioner: Yes, I appreciate that.
Henzi: If I could ask one question before you launch into that.
Petitioner: Sure.
Henzi: Is this the first summer that this has existed?
Petitioner: Second summer.
Henzi: Second. Okay.
Petitioner: It existed all last summer and we used it. The purpose of – we call it a hoop
house. Okay. A greenhouse in my mind the connotation and I don’t know that there’s
actually a definition within the ordinance of what greenhouse is. We call it a hoop. We
made that distinction because we erected it in four hours a group of guys from the
church and we can take it down in the same amount of time. And so there is no
permanency about it. While we didn’t, and it’s to our fault, we didn’t take it down last
year and it’s probably why we received a complaint and we didn’t take it down. We will
and intend to do that at the end of every growing season going forward. The pictures
that were submitted – I don’t know if everyone has a copy of those. I included pictures
that showed that we’re basically – screwing them with basic attachments. The plastic
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 64 June 28, 2011
comes off. The poles come out very easily. The wood is carried away in a matter of a
few hours literally and so I would disagree with any classification of it as a permanent
structure and so I don’t think it would fall. But again, I can’t deal with that conclusively
tonight. When we erected it though – we started a community garden last year. We
have 72,000 square feet of vacant land that runs along the church and we use a quarter
acre of it as a community garden. We have 30 families within the parish who
participate, who work in it. A portion of the produce is given to needy families in this
community. That is a stated mission of the garden. Last summer we supported a local
family who was down on their luck and who we have contributed to - our parish has
contributed financially and who we have given food to. We will continue to do that. It’s
important to us to do that. What the hoop house brings to us is an ability to extend our
growing season. We can start earlier, we can grow later. We had a very cold and wet
summer. We have tomato plants in that hoop house right now that are two and a half
feet high. The corresponding tomato plants that are out in the open part of the garden
are less than a foot high. So, we’ve got a huge head start on that produce. We use that
– the hoop house protects crops from early frost. It provides a shelter outside for
growing seedlings. We start seeds, put them in trays, put them outside in there protects
them from the colder weather from the frost, natural light, the heat that produces helps
to get a quick start on those. It’s important – a lot of community gardens, a lot of CSA’s
which are community supported agriculture use these types of facilities. It’s important to
us. We don’t believe that the community garden would be as efficient or effective as
possible without the use of this structure. In our opinion, it doesn’t detract from the
neighborhood. It doesn’t attract vermin. It doesn’t emit noxious orders. It’s quiet.
There is a fan, but it’s no louder – it’s quieter than your AC unit on the back of your
house. It’s not a burden, in our opinion. I assume that there’s some letters. This
violation generated from a complaint. When I inquired about what the nature of the
complaint was, and I understand this, but the City wouldn’t reveal who it was or what
really the nature of it was. Like I said earlier, as it was presented to us, the issue was it
doesn’t matter what the complaint is your structure is in violation of the zoning
ordinances, not the building ordinances, the zoning ordinances. Our appeal here is
based upon that issue resolving that issue. We don’t think it’s unsightly, but I’m sure
and I’m curious as to what the letters say because we have 72,000 square feet. I mean,
if it’s too close to someone’s house, we can move it. If it’s too long we can shorten it.
It’s important to us to have it, but we’re willing to work with the City in order to address
the concerns that some of the neighbors have about it because we don’t want to be
obnoxious neighbors. We don’t want to force this upon someone who doesn’t want it.
It’s one thing if someone just says look, it’s ugly I don’t want it. It’s another thing if it’s
too close to my fence line or whatever, it’s too loud whatever. We would address that.
In fact, we had a neighbor, we had another fan in there a month ago and he called the
Priest and he said, look, you know, your fan is loud and we recognized that and we
replaced. Got a new one, it’s quiet, doesn’t – like I said, it’s no louder than the air
conditioning unit on someone’s house and it’s on the asphalt side, the parking lot side of
the house itself. It’s not on the other side. It’s not in someone’s back yard, et cetera, et
cetera. I imagine that just having the garden there is a problem for some of the
residents. We admit it’s basically in some peoples’ back yards. On Saturdays we have
15 people that are working in that garden to make it work for us. I can understand that.
There’s ordinance violation in having a garden and it’s important. We’re giving back –
we’re supporting our own parish, we’re supporting the people in need in this community
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 64 June 28, 2011
in Livonia. With that, I will turn it over to you guys and, you know, if there’s any
questions you have of me.
Henzi: The one question I can think of is what’s your proposed growing season?
Petitioner: We would put it up – we take it down in October, probably the end of October
and then put it up in May, the beginning of May.
Henzi: Thank you. Any questions for the Petitioner.
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: I have a question for Mr. Fisher. Are we talking about a permanent greenhouse
which is not allowed or a temporary structure which is not allowed?
Fisher: Well, I think obviously when Randy wrote this up he was under the impression
based on the fact that it was not taken down last winter that this was a permanent
structure. So, it seems to be changing before our eyes.
Harb: Thank you.
Henzi: What effect on – if we’re to treat this as a temporary structure that exists from
every May to October?
Fisher: Well, I think some of the code violations may go away. Your permanent
structure should have the rat wall and all that stuff which this does not have. I’m not
sure I’ve ever known all the implications of the difference, but that’s one of them any
how.
Henzi: Okay. Any other questions? Mr. Moran.
Moran: Well, which way are we leaning now? Are we leaning toward just gathering
more information or are we hearing the case as a temporary structure? What are we
doing this evening to move this forward?
Petitioner: If I can just interject. The reason I attached the pictures that I did was to
show that it was a temporary structure and in that it was easily removable. If you guys
want to move assuming that it’s a temporary structure, I’m very happy with that.
Moran: Mike, if this were a temporary structure, what type of notice if any would have
had to been sent out?
Fisher: I think we probably would have sent a very similar notice except we would not
have used the word permanent we would have said it was a temporary structure.
Moran: Okay. But a variance is still required for sure.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 64 June 28, 2011
Fisher: Well, we’re not – this is neither fish nor fowl, I guess, I’ve never seen a structure
like this on an R4 piece of property before and I think we would treat it as a violation in
any R4 setting. I was actually interested in the – it sounded as if Jerry represented to
you that if you were in an RUF district this would be okay?
Petitioner: It wasn’t – he recommended that we come to you and ask you, but it was not
Jerry who recommended that it was Scott Miller. Jerry said, if you go up to Planning
and you talk to them and approve it, that’s fine with me. And then I did and he approved
and I called Jerry back and I said, hey, they said it works and Scott said, yeah, I’ll call
them and tell them it works, too. Apparently, there was some other subsequent
discussion involving some other members of the Building Department who said, no, this
is a problem because there is a zoning violation here because you are R1 and this
temporary structure language is in RUF which is residential urban farming.
Fisher: Okay. I reason I ask that is because there is RUF, the RUF zoning does have
discussion of temporary structures. I wouldn’t necessarily have said that applied to this,
but if the Inspection Department considers this to be permitted in RUF, I wouldn’t argue
with them. But my question then would be why aren’t you applying for RUF zoning
then?
Petitioner: Well, because when I talked with John down in Building --
Kearfott: Dauffenbach.
Petitioner: Yes. He recommended I go this route. It is probably, probably, I don’t know
this for certain, probably easier, quicker and more cost effective to get a variance then it
is to go the re-zoning route.
Henzi: So, Mike, like you say, do you think you need time to come up with an opinion
over whether he even needs a variance? Because, and the reason I say it is as I look
at the letters, as I thumb through the letters are to the effect, we don’t like it.
Fisher: Yes.
Henzi: They’re not we would approve this if they took it down every winter. It’s we don’t
like it.
Fisher: Right.
Henzi: It doesn’t blend in with our neighborhood. So, we’ve got a petitioner who is
asking for very specific relief, a great amount of neighborhood opposition to this thing as
existing at all and if there’s any question about whether they even need a variance. Is
the best thing then to reschedule?
Fisher: Oh, I don’t think there’s any question that they need a variance if they’re going to
stay R-4 zoned.
Henzi: Okay.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 64 June 28, 2011
Fisher: What I was thinking was, the question was up in the air whether they need a
variance if it’s for RUF.
Henzi: Okay.
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: Driving through the property, you notice that on the west side of the property
there’s all cyclone fencing for the most part and reading the letters like Mr. Henzi says,
they’re basically saying, we don’t like it, but if they didn’t see would they not like it at that
time. So, my question is is that if there was a fence, would that change neighbors’
opinions of it. I’d be curious to know as people came up if that would be the case or if it
was on the other side of the property on the east side of the property where – I didn’t
notice if there was cyclone on that side, but if they didn’t see it there would that be a
problem?
Kearfott: The problem is like when you’re on Fairway Street is what you’re talking
about?
Harb: Right.
Kearfott: When you’re on Fairway --
Harb: It’s in someone’s backyard.
Kearfott: There’s a house that it’s in the front yard.
Harb: And there’s chicken wire fencing, you know, that’s very close to that property.
And then there’s kind of like a triangle that doesn’t have any fencing at all.
Kearfott: I was just wondering if they would be open to the idea of some type of
arborvitaes wall that screened it and gave it like a green belt so it wasn’t intrusive to the
people who live on Fairway.
Harb: I would be curious to know what people would say.
Kearfott: If you created some kind of green screen. If you had that and any kind of
proposal or –
Petitioner: Yeah, we would do that. We would be happy to. I’m curious though as to
where the complaints are coming from you know what I’m saying. Like it doesn’t
become cost effective if we have to put a green screen the entire length of the whole
property because the first house off of Seven Mile is also complaining just like the
house probably right behind it is also complaining. Do you know what I’m saying? And
so what length of green screen is satisfactory? It has to be reasonable.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 64 June 28, 2011
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: Obviously, we’ve got a – as Mike pointed out, a very fluid situation this evening.
Is it practical to share the complaints letters or the response letters most of which are
complaints with the Petitioner? Allow him to go back, craft a better plan, work with the
neighbors or whatever and come forward with a more complete picture if you will and
allow both the Inspection and the legal department to determine if this has all be – if
there is some other way that notice should be provided or the case should be heard
differently particularly after Ken and I are gone.
Henzi: I think that’s reasonable.
Harb: Mr. Chair, let me ask the Petitioner. Mr. Curtis.
Petitioner: Yes.
Harb: On that east side of the property, is that wooden fence or cyclone fence?
Petitioner: On the east side it’s all wooden. Oh, oh, I don’t know the difference.
Harb: For the most part closer to Wayne Road.
Petitioner: It’s all wooden, six foot privacy fence on the east side.
Harb: You have your existing building and existing play area.
Petitioner: I’m sorry, Mr. Harb. It is green all the way on that side of the church.
Correct.
Harb: All right. So, you have that parking lot basically. Is this area right here big
enough for a community garden?
Petitioner: Well, the problem with this area is actually its low and it floods out so there’s
no way we could use this area back over here. Plus, the other problem is that we have
invested a lot of money in irrigation. It comes around the parking lot and it provides
hoses that come through the garden so moving it would be a problem.
Harb: I was just curious about that.
Petitioner: This right here could be more of a problem because you’ve got residents
right here and right here plus.
Harb: Thank you.
Petitioner: Yes.
Petitioner: Mr. Chair.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 64 June 28, 2011
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I think it would be helpful. I thought I heard someone in the back say that they
weren’t with the church if they could speak to find of what some of their - if they have
any issues with this.
Henzi: That’s valid, too, you and Mr. Moran make good points. Thumbing through the
objections and the letters range from, it’s an eye sore to kids that are playing inside and
falling off in the winter which to me if kids are playing on falling off, kids are getting
inside. To me rises to a much greater safety level and I just don’t like it. So, if there are
folks who are against it maybe this will be a good time to find out, you know, put the
cards out and find out what were the objections and then you’ll know maybe you’d like
to re-craft the plan or a response. So, I’ll put out there is there anyone that wants to
speak for or against this come on up to the table.
Martin: I live about six feet from this.
Henzi: Can you tell us your name and address.
Martin: Ryan Martin, 18998 Fairway. I’m sorry and I’ve got a few pictures here.
Henzi: 18999 you said.
Martin: 18998 Fairway.
Henzi: Got it.
Martin: And one of the things – it didn’t come down for two years. And if I was to try and
sell my house with that in my backyard, I don’t think I could. Some of the other things,
it’s an eye sore, the fan is loud. I mean, they since replaced it, I haven’t heard it since
they said they replaced it, but it was loud. The chicken wire is for beans to grow up and
it’s about seven foot tall. It’s in one of these pictures here that you can see. I mean, I
don’t have a problem with the garden and I don’t have a problem with donating $150.00
to the family that’s in need if they can get rid of this. I mean, it’s just – I would have
never bought the house with that sitting in the back yard. The whole neighborhood cuts
through my yard to go to the church. I’m fine with that. You know, kids are running
back and forth. My kids play in the field. They have never complained about that. I’m
okay with all those things, but I mean, how would you guys like to live with that in your
back yard? It’s just completely out of control.
Kearfott: If you had an eight foot high arborvitae wall going all the way across would
that change your opinion at all?
Martin: That would restrict people from going in and out they would have to walk all the
way around. I mean, I don’t want to cut it off for the whole neighborhood, you know,
because there’s a walk by through there, a nature walk and stuff. And I don’t have a
problem with garden being, but the green house, it’s not a hoop house or whatever
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 64 June 28, 2011
we’re referring to it as. It’s a green house. He described it as growing tomatoes early
and keeping them late that by definition to me is greenhouse to me. I think that’s it.
Henzi: You said you don’t want the arborvitaes because lots of folks in the
neighborhood either walk through to get to the church or walk through just to walk.
Martin: Correct. Walk through to get back to the nature preserve or walk through to go
to the church or cut through to go across Seven Mile and I’m completely fine with that.
Henzi: Excuse me. We’ve got to keep order. We will limit the speakers and everyone
will get a chance to speak.
Martin: An eye sore, the fan, I think that’s it.
Henzi: Okay.
Martin: That’s all I got. The thing is hideous.
Henzi: Thank you. Is there anyone else who wants to speak against this?
Rogozan: My name is Richard Rogozan. I live at 32685 Five Mile Road and I am a
member of Holy Transfiguration Church. What the man says, we’ll take into
consideration. We can work with him. We can work with the neighbors, give us an
opportunity to address the issues that have come here. Let us come back and see if we
can resolve them. We can keep everybody happy. We can keep our hoop house,
greenhouse, how ever you want to define it. Do we need a variance? Do we need a
change, whatever we need, but let us work on it and let us put some things together.
We want to be good neighbors. We change appreciate peoples’ property values and
their concerns and everything else like that, but we also have concerns, too, and some
of the things, some of the charity work we’re doing. We have an awful lot of property
there and we are trying to make use of it in a manner that benefits the whole
community. So, from there just give us the consideration of addressing the issues and
coming back and let’s go at it again. Thank you.
Henzi: Mr. Curtis, I’ll ask you because you’re the speaker on benefit the parish.
Petitioner: Sure.
Henzi: If we tabled this, if we tell you you’ve got to come back by August, is that a
problem? The next date is July 26th, I don’t know that we could force you to come back.
We don’t want to table this and then you never come back.
Petitioner: How about just after the growing season? I’m kidding, August would be
great and it will give us an opportunity to address concerns and talk with them and try to
come up with something --
Henzi: We just want to make sure that if we put a time limit --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: We don’t want to be bad neighbors. We don’t want to be bad neighbors.
That’s not what we’re here to do. No one wants to be a bad neighbor. We’re trying to
do good with that garden.
Henzi: Is there anyone else who wants to speak for or against the project. If so, come
on up to the table.
Ryben: My name is Paul Ryben (Ph.). I live at 2951 Oakview in Livonia. I am a
member of Holy Transfiguration Church. As far as the use which seems to be an issue
we’re a church, we’re not growing this to sell it. We’re probably not even growing it
when you look at what it costs to buy it Westborn or Kroger’s versus what have in it.
We’ve got the garden because we love God and we love God’s creation and God
continues to create and with the things that grow out of the garden including starting
tomatoes from seeds and seeing the children see that and experience that and work
with the garden. We want to be good neighbors with our neighbors, you know, I think
that’s the first we’ve heard. You know they haven’t come to us. At the same time, we
have had problems, I don’t know who but last year the hoop house was vandalized.
Every section of plastic was sliced. We had to replace the plastic this year at a cost of
about 500. We’ve had kids, you know, coming through the property smashing
vegetables. They turned on the irrigation and flooded it last year. It could have been a
rice paddy there. So, we want to be good neighbors and at the same time I’m not
aware of any nature preserve and we have church property and we would like people to
respect our sanctuary as well. Thank you.
Henzi: Thank you. Anyone else?
Martin: I also live at 18998 Fairway. I just wanted to address that although our issue is
that it is directly behind us, we know lots of neighbors in the area that have complained
about the view, how the property sits that it is in plain sight. So, although we can say
it’s great if you block the back it doesn’t address the other neighbors’ issues.
Henzi: Oh, people who live to the south on Fairway?
Martin: Yes, everyone that drives down the street. If you drive up it towards Seven
Mile, it’s very visible.
Henzi: Anybody else? Do you want to read the letters?
Caramagno: I think those neighbors are represented here.
Petitioner: Can you read those?
Caramagno: If you want to hear what the problem is, we’ll have to read them.
Petitioner: I would like to.
Caramagno: Okay. Karen Collins [19098 Fairway] (letter read) approves. Diane
Kaminski [18637 Fairway] approves (letter read). John Armstrong [18713 Fairway]
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 64 June 28, 2011
objects (letter read). Michael Aurelia [19021 Fairway Drive] objects (letter read) Walter
Kay [18837 Fairway] objects (letter read). Sandra Kirchner objects [35820 Veri Ct.]
(letter read). Christine Moore [18680 Fairway] objection (letter read). Richard Pajas
[18836 Fairway] objections (letter read). Dennis Pousak [19079 Van Rd.] objection
(letter read).
Henzi: Just note that we are incorporating his attachment that includes City Council
Minutes from the Arlington, Minnesota council on a similar issue and a print out
regarding his property, but these aren’t being read for sake of time.
Caramagno: An objection from John Wiktor [19020 Fairway] (letter read). Evelyn
Wroblewski [18681 Fairway] objection (letter read).
Henzi: Mr. Curtis, is it still your position you’d like more time or would you like to
respond to any of this now?
Petitioner: More time, please.
Henzi: Okay.
Petitioner: Thank you.
Caramagno: Mr. Chair, are you going to make a motion to table it?
Henzi: Yes.
Caramagno: Well, I’d just like to say a couple of things. There’s a pile on the south end
of your parking lot where you have the woods and growth there, a big pile of debris
there. It looks like it was pulled out of the garden maybe when it was rotor tilled.
Petitioner: That’s weeds pulled from the garden.
Caramagno: Why do you just throw it there? The neighbors are saying that the
greenhouse is unsightly. That’s almost the first thing I see when I pulled up is that big
pile of debris in the back of the lot. I mean that’s not being courteous to your neighbors
either. Isn’t there something else you could have done with that to dispose of it? You
don’t have a landfill or compost site back there, do you?
Petitioner: No, we don’t have a landfill or compost site.
Caramagno: So why are you dumping that material just on the back of your lot?
Petitioner: Because it’s an area of the church that is near the tree line. It’s a convenient
place to put it for us.
Caramagno: Convenient in what way? It’s not convenient to your neighbors. It starts to
stink, it starts to decompose and I don’t know how that’s convenient to your neighbors
maybe to you because it doesn’t cost anything, but it’s not convenient or considerate to
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 64 June 28, 2011
your neighbors. The other question I have for you is why do you have to have the
garden on this property? Why does it have to be here?
Petitioner: We don’t have any other property.
Caramagno: What’s that?
Petitioner: We don’t have any other property. I mean, I guess like – I’m lost.
Caramagno: Is this the only place possible for the garden to be?
Petitioner: If it’s going to be on church property, yes, because this is the only property
we have.
Caramagno: Okay. I know Livonia has their Greenmead Garden Center which is quite
expansive. Have you considered building your greenhouse there? If you’re talking to
the City about building something more complete and nicer there. Have you thought
about that at all?
Petitioner: No, we have not.
Caramagno: Just a couple questions I had. Thanks.
Henzi: Is there any other discussion before there’s a tabling motion because we won’t
be able then. You’re going to give him a time?
Pastor: Two months?
Henzi: It’s okay by me.
Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Caramagno:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-31: Holy Transfiguration Orthodox Church,
36075 Seven Mile Road, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to maintain a permanent 12’
x 95’ greenhouse, which is not allowed.
The property is located on the south side of Seven Mile Road (36075) between Fairway
and Van be tabled so the Church can review letters from neighbors and take the
Board’s comments into consideration and return with an alternate plan within two
months.
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Pastor, Caramagno, Aloe, Harb, Moran, Henzi
NAYS: None
Henzi: So, this is tabled and the next available meetings are July 26, August 9, and
August 23.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: August 23rd or how do we --
Henzi: Well, you’ll call the ZBA office.
Petitioner: Okay.
Henzi: Pick a day.
Petitioner: Okay.
Henzi: And then we’ve got to put the notices out again.
Petitioner: Okay.
Henzi: In the paper et cetera and it will be rescheduled on whichever day works best
you.
Petitioner: Could you repeat the ones in August.
Henzi: The 9th or the 23rd.
Petitioner: Okay. Thank you.
Henzi: Good luck.
Petitioner: Thank you.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 64 June 28, 2011
(9:45 #2/32)
APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-32: Douglas Pipp, 18906 Filmore, Livonia, MI 48152,
seeking to construct an addition to a detached garage resulting in excess garage
area.
Detached Garage Area
Allowed: 660 sq. ft.
Proposed: 864 sq. ft.
Excess: 204 sq. ft.
The property is located on the east side of Filmore (18906) between Seven Mile Road
and Clarita.
Henzi: Mr. Kearfott, anything to add?
Kearfott: Not at this time.
Henzi: Any questions for Scott? Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Pipp.
Petitioner: Douglas Pipp at 18906 Filmore and I have lived in this residence for 33
years.
Henzi: Tell us why you want to add the extra bay to the garage.
Petitioner: Well, I deal in older cars and I like in the wintertime mostly even from the sun
in the summertime, I like to keep the vehicle into the garage and also burn some wood
as almost a main source. So, I like to keep a few cords of it in there ahead of time so it
stays dry and so I’d like to have the addition 12 x 24.
Henzi: Okay. Some wood is an understatement
Petitioner: Yeah, I just split seven in the last three days.
Henzi: Do you have a wood-burning stove?
Petitioner: Yes, I burn wood.
Henzi: W hat do you keep in your garage now?
Petitioner: Well, half the time I keep that vehicle in there, but right now I just put some
wood into the vehicle, riding lawn mower and my lawn equipment and stuff like that, and
hunting gear.
Henzi: Yeah, and I’m not --
Petitioner: The wife is bothering me to get her vehicle in the garage.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 64 June 28, 2011
Henzi: It’s neatly stacked –
Petitioner: Oh, yes, all in racks, yes.
Henzi: Okay. Are there other things that you can’t store in the garage now that you’d
like to be able to store in there, other than what you just talked about?
Petitioner: The wife’s vehicle and well, I just had a daughter move back home with me
from Connecticut so I have her stuff, too.
Henzi: And then can you or your contractor tell us what it’s going to look like, the
building materials. I presume it’s to match.
Contractor: My name is Ryan Moran. I’m with Italy American Construction Company.
We’re the contractor for the project. Our address is 8401 N. Telegraph Road, Dearborn
Heights, MI 48127. Yes, basically, we’re looking to just match what’s on the existing
garage as far as the shingles and siding. It’s going to be vinyl sided. The color is going
to be Desert Tan. The trim is going to be a darker brown color. The shingles are going
to be driftwood is the color name. And that’s all going to match what’s on the existing
garage anyway. I have had discussions with John from the Building Inspection
Department before we applied for the Zoning Board on this project. They’ve given us
preliminary approval to go ahead and start the project and they realize they made a
mistake and incorrectly issued the approval to do the construction on this addition. In
talking to him, he said that we’re fine as far as total lot coverage. We’re under the total
allowable square footage for that size of lot. We could possibly build a shed that was
detached from both the house and the garage up to 200 square feet and we would not
even have to come before you today. We thought that that would kind of chop up his
yard and create an unnecessary situation there and make it harder for him to use both
the shed and the property. So, we figured that the addition would be a better solution to
that because the actual square footage that we’re asking for the variance for is almost
exactly what they would allow for a detached shed.
Henzi: Are you confident you will be able to match the materials?
Contractor: Oh, yes.
Henzi: Because all I’m thinking about is it looks pretty nice on the plans. I just want to
make sure that when you’re done it looks like it was always a three-car garage.
Contractor: It will look beautiful.
Henzi: Okay. Thank you. Any questions for the Petitioner?
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 64 June 28, 2011
Harb: I have a question for Mike. If you had a detached garage of 660 square feet are
you still allowed a 200 square foot shed?
Fisher: Yes.
Contractor: The one thing I was kind of unsure of with the way the ordinance is is, you
know, you’re allowed to have 25 percent total lot coverage to govern all your buildings
on a property and this gentleman has a house that’s maybe a little bit smaller than some
of the other houses that might be on a lot that size or whatever, but he’s well under the
25 percent lot coverage square footage so I don’t know why there’s also a limit on the
like the maximum garage size. I really just don’t understand that part of it.
Harb: We’re the wrong group.
Moran: Because it’s the ordinance.
Fisher: Well, the partial answer to that one Mr. Chair, I mean we – several years ago we
discussed a celebrated case out of Troy where some joker built like a 3,500 square foot
garage and generally speaking our rule of thumb is we don’t like the garage to be bigger
than the house.
Contractor: We’re not even any where close to that --
Fisher: No, I understand.
Contractor: -- is my point.
Fisher: I understand but your question is why limit the size of the garage or aggregate of
garages along with the lot coverage - that’s the reason.
Contractor: I guess, and it’s not really anything to deal with this meeting, it’s probably
something that the Zoning Board or maybe the Planning Commission might want to take
a look at because you’ve got a situation where you couldn’t do anything larger than
what they would allow you to do and stay within your square footage on that lot.
Harb: Okay. Here’s what I think. I think you already have a 24 x 24 square foot shed;
right. This isn’t a garage because there’s no driveway. Are you planning on putting a
driveway, a hard surface toward the street?
Contractor: Yeah, sure.
Harb: When?
Contractor: Take a look at the plan.
Harb: I don’t see anything in the plans.
Contractor: Well, it’s not going to go all the way out to the street though.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 56 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: No, no.
Harb: Right now it seems to me that the garage and the house is, what, 26 feet and
what you want to do is add – remove 12 from that so you’re only talking about 14 feet
between the garage and the back of the house. That doesn’t seem like a back yard at
all. That just seems like the garage in the back yard. So, to me I have some issues.
One, where’s the driveway? That’s the main issue. To me I’d rather have a shed to put
behind somewhere out of the way then to take away from what little of your back yard
that you currently have.
Petitioner: Like I said, any vehicle comes in there I got that antique vehicles I deal in
they only go in and out of there a few times a year out of that garage.
Harb: Sir, Mr. Pipp, there’s absolutely no way that I would approve you moving a car in
and out and moving it in in October or November and moving it out in April and May
without a hard surface. So, until you can tell me that a hard surface is going to be there
--
Petitioner: Well, eventually I’m going to put one there but right now I’ve got those log
trucks come in there and like you said, I mean, you’re talking five cords of wood. They
back in there that ground is like concrete now. You are never going to sink down in that
thing.
Harb: Well, I’m just giving you my opinion. My opinion would be to deny this until you
decide to put in a hard surface for the log trucks and for other things. Thank you.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Petitioner: In the future I plan on it.
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: Why did you decide to go to the west instead of the south? You could have
taken this directly to the south 12 feet, added on to what you have existing. It would be
less concrete to the street and much more room in the back yard.
Petitioner: Yeah, but that space really back there isn’t good for much at all.
Pastor: That made no sense to me at all but --
Petitioner: I build there it up front right now that whole yard is strictly across the back so
I got a whole open yard.
Pastor: I don’t know if you weren’t listening to Mr. Harb, but to get his vote you’re going
to have to put a driveway in there.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 57 of 64 June 28, 2011
Petitioner: I’m eventually going to put a driveway in there.
Pastor: No, he’s talking about now, that’s what he’s talking about just so you
understand. You may find that there’s more than one Board member that’s going to
require that to give you this variance. So, my question is or my comment is, if you took
that same 12 foot and put it on the front of the garage where you’ve got a door right
now, you’re 12 foot closer to the street, and you got 12 feet less concrete you’re going
to have to pour. You might want to consider that. That’s all.
Henzi: You’re suggesting bring it 12 feet closer to Clarita?
Pastor: Yes. Excuse me, Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Yes, Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: What is this equipment in the garage? It looks like – I don’t know what is behind
the dolly here, what is that piece of equipment?
Petitioner: My riding tractor?
Pastor: That’s a riding tractor?
Petitioner: That’s my new bar-b-que grill.
Pastor: That’s a bar-b-que grill?
Petitioner: Yeah, sitting side ways. It goes a long ways.
Pastor: Okay. Thank you.
Petitioner: That’s one that’s got the table on it, you know, fold down table.
Henzi: Any other questions? Anybody else?
Contractor: Okay. One thing I would like to add as kind of a discussion point is the
location where we’re putting this garage addition on this structure that’s currently there
now is in no way affecting any portion of the existing part of the garage where you come
to and from with a vehicle. That portion of that garage was constructed that way, it’s
been sitting there without a driveway for 25 years. I don’t think that making this addition
on the back side of this garage is going to change that. It doesn’t affect that particular
part of the garage itself and truthfully it’s not why we’re here today because ultimately
that garage can still stay there without a driveway.
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 58 of 64 June 28, 2011
Moran: Just to help you through this, I’m very much like Mr. Harb, I’m probably the one
on this group that has the biggest heartburn about these things. This is storage. The
definition of a garage per the code is: “a private garage is the structure for the storage
principally of noncommercial motor vehicles having no public or services in connection
there with.” We all went by there. This doesn’t appear to be used for principally for the
storage of motor vehicles, perhaps it is occasionally, but when I went by there you
couldn’t get an automobile back there.
Petitioner: No, well, did you go by there today you can because I got all that wood cut
up.
Moran: Sunday morning there were a lot of hand trucks and other things in the way.
Petitioner: Right, I been moving that wood.
Moran: So, again, I can’t explain the history of the ordinance or whether you agree with
it, sir, but there are purposes and the purposes are that Livonia is going to provide a
limited amount of storage to people and this is only for storage. So, you’re right you can
put a shed, you can do other things within the code – within the ordinance, that’s fine,
but I have a problem with people and perhaps it isn’t just this gentleman, perhaps there
will be future owners. I don’t know what’s going to go on in there, but that’s not what
our communities are designed for. That’s not how a residential community is typically
designed. So, maybe that offers you some other ideas this evening as to what you
might want to do, take these comments into consideration, but to me to come forward
here and I quarrel with the whole way this notice is put out. It’s not a garage for me. I
don’t know where we – just because we put a garage door, we built the building big
enough, we put a garage door on it and call it a garage. But by definition the thing is so
big it has to have a large door. Maybe I’ve been on this long enough.
Harb: Only six years, Terry.
Henzi: Any other questions? Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Well, I’m a fan of garages. I like garages, I like them well built, well used. I
think there’s a purpose for them, but I – Ken and Craig, they’ve got some merit to what
they said about bringing that garage to the south and certainly some sort of hard
surface. I am no fan of garages without a hard surface going back to them and whether
you’re grass is hard as concrete or not I think that when you access a garage you
should be driving on asphalt, a concrete, a defined gravel going back to this building or
a combination of two. Craig’s suggestion makes great sense to me to come out, you’re
pouring concrete any how, you come 12, 15 feet closer to the road you’re taking care of
part of the problem. You’re getting your same capacity and garage space and I don’t
recall do you have a gate that you drive a car in there, is there a gate there?
Petitioner: Yeah, double gate. It’s been there ever since the house --
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 59 of 64 June 28, 2011
Caramagno: I will support a tabling motion. I think there’s a better plan here myself and
we could talk all day long about ordinances and why or what. There’s a better plan for
what you want here.
Contractor: I’d like to ask which direction are you talking about south --
Petitioner: Coming out towards Clarita south.
Contractor: But that’s not where the overhead door is now; correct?
Petitioner: Yeah. Yeah, it’s on the south.
Contactor: Yeah, right.
Henzi: Any other questions?
Petitioner: Yeah, we’re talking about coming to the south 12 x 24 in the drive to the
road.
Henzi: That’s what Mr. Pastor suggested.
Petitioner: Yes, yes.
Contractor: Basically, just move that concrete drive or concrete area that’s next to the
garage there in front so you can access the door.
Petitioner: And come 12 foot, 12 x 24, !2 foot south and then east and west on the 14;
correct?
Caramagno: Yeah, sounds better.
Petitioner: Okay.
Kearfott: And I think what they’re trying to say is, if you want this, they want hard
surface.
Petitioner: Right, well, you said the driveway out to the road.
Kearfott: It’s less concrete.
Petitioner: Driveway out. Okay, I see what he’s talking about.
Kearfott: And it may seem to give you more back yard even though it’s still the same
square footage.
Petitioner: Yeah.
Kearfott: A more useable back yard.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 60 of 64 June 28, 2011
Pastor: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I also have another little bit of concern with – this is kind of a large garage on a
small – you may consider the lot a big lot, but it’s not really that big of a lot. I have a
little bit of concern about the 88 square feet that you’re asking for. I don’t know if any
other member here does or not, but I do have some concern about that. I believe you
need a bigger garage if you need it. I just - this is not a huge lot so I think I go along
with Sam’s tabling motion.
Henzi: Anything else?
Harb: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: I just wanted to clarify what would you put in this oversized building. You said
that you’d put a car in there at least in the wintertime?
Petitioner: Yes, and like I said the wife’s been bugging me to make space for her car.
Harb: So, if you had that extra 12 feet in the back of the garage --
Petitioner: Yeah, well that’s where I can store all my stuff into the back of the garage
cars can be in the front.
Harb: And you’d be able to put a door in the back so you could –
Petitioner: No, I wouldn’t put a door on there. I might, but I don’t need a door on the
back then. Yeah, it probably would be better now that you talk about it, yeah, have a
door on the back.
Harb: You’d have to get the wood or whatever. So, that’s your 252 square feet
basically is what you’d want. Thank you.
Henzi: Anything else? Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or
against the project?
Petitioner: Yeah, and if he is, he’s sleeping back there.
Henzi: Are there any letters?
Caramagno: Yeah, sure. Amy Jackson [18973 Filmore Street] approves (letter read).
Mark Mortiere [18769 Farmington Road] approves (letter read). Mary Ann Schires
[18985 Filmore] approves (letter read). Richard Smith [18808 Filmore] approval (letter
read).
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 61 of 64 June 28, 2011
Henzi: Mr. Pipp, is there anything you’d like to say in closing?
Petitioner: No, sir.
Henzi: Okay. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments
with Mrs. Aloe.
Aloe: Well, I have to say I agree. I usually am in support of garages knowing that
people have to have more than two car garage these days, but this one doesn’t really
set right the way it is on the lot. It’s almost up against the house. There’s 14 feet. It’s a
small lot. It’s only 80 x 137 and definitely if it’s a garage it has to have a driveway. So,
those are my comments.
Henzi: Mr. Pastor.
Pastor: I agree with Mrs. Aloe.
Henzi: Mr. Harb.
Harb: I agree as well.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: Nothing more to say.
Henzi: Mr. Caramagno.
Caramagno: Well, you’ve heard the comments. Go rewrite this thing and bring it back
to us on a tabling motion and you’ll probably do better.
Henzi: I agree. So, the floor is open for a motion.
Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor:
RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-06-32: Douglas Pipp, 18906 Filmore, Livonia,
MI 48152, seeking to construct an addition to a detached garage resulting in
excess garage area.
Detached Garage Area
Allowed: 660 sq. ft.
Proposed: 864 sq. ft.
Excess: 204 sq. ft.
The property is located on the east side of Filmore (18906) between Seven Mile Road
and Clarita be tabled so that the Petitioner and can take into consideration the
comments of the Board and return with a revised plan from Italy American Construction.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 62 of 64 June 28, 2011
ROLL CALL VOTE:
AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Aloe, Harb, Moran, Henzi
NAYS: None
Henzi: This is tabled so that you can come back with another plan and I will tell you that
the available meeting dates are July 26, August 9 and August 23.
Contractor: The July one you guys said that you had to have the paperwork in by
Thursday; is that correct?
Henzi: Yes. August 9th is wide open you’d have an extra week. You just call the ZBA
office and talk to Jackie.
Contractor: Right. Talk to Jackie.
Henzi: We’ll see you in a few weeks then.
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 63 of 64 June 28, 2011
______________________________________________________________________
Moran: Mr. Chair.
Henzi: Mr. Moran.
Moran: What would you think of – I don’t know how to phrase this but in the interest of
our petitioners and people that come could we schedule cases like no sooner that –
have the first three and then have the next three no sooner than eight o’clock or
something if we got strangely got done by quarter to eight take a 15 minute break. I just
feel terrible when people have to sit as long as they do. People come to a meeting at
seven o’clock and leave at ten and think that they needed to be here at seven.
Henzi: Yes, that’s a good point because even if somebody looked at the agenda on line,
even if they looked they’d see, oh, I’m fourth on the list.
Moran: But nobody knows how long – yeah, with no experience. So, if you said be here
by at least by eight o’clock, I don’t know it might be difficult to phrase.
Pastor: How do you know if they’re here or not when the opening – we always ask if
they’re here.
Henzi: Yeah, that’s a problem if people don’t show up.
Moran: Why is that a problem, stop at eight o’clock and say is everybody here? What’s
the issue?
Harb: Well, if you made a comment – the typical case takes 15 minutes –
Moran: It isn’t just the petitioner it’s the people that have to also come. The night the
guy sat here with his children until 11:00 o’clock.
Henzi: Yeah, I felt bad about that.
Moran: I’m just trying to make the suggestion that might be a little more tolerable for
people
Henzi: It’s something to think about. It is pretty rare that we have six and three don’t
show.
Moran: Right.
Henzi: Generally people don’t come.
Moran: So what if they didn’t show. So the Zoning Broad had to wait an hour is my
suggestion. The worse thing is you take a break until eight o’clock.
Aloe: For an hour?
City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 64 of 64 June 28, 2011
Moran: What, three cases aren’t going to show?
Fisher: This is spoken like a guy who’s not going to be on the Zoning Board much
longer.
Moran: Are you noticing a pattern, just trying to help you folks out. I may have to sit in
the audience.
Kearfott: With Mr. Martin tell him nine o’clock.
Aloe: No, let’s tell him 11.
Moran: I think we’re still on the record.
Henzi: Is there a motion to adjourn.
There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at
9:50 p.m.
___________________________
SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary
___________________________
MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman
/hm