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HomeMy WebLinkAbout11-15-11 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 35 November 15, 2011 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING HELD NOVEMBER 15, 2011 MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman Craig Pastor, Vice Chairman Sam Caramagno, Secretary Toni Aloe Ed Duggan Robert Sills Betsy McCue MEMBERS ABSENT: None OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney Steve Banko, City Inspector Helen Mininni, Court Reporter The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each Petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each Petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Seven (7) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each Petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, Petitioners and City Departments. There were 10 persons present in the audience. ______________________________________________________________________ (7:02 #1/100) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-46: Joseph Pydlek, 35006 Wood, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a cover over a new deck onto the rear of an existing dwelling resulting in excess lot coverage. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 35 November 15, 2011 Lot Coverage Allowed: 25.0% (1,800 sq. ft.) Proposed: 32.2% (2,320 sq. ft.) Excess: 7.2% ( 520 sq. ft.) The property is located on the north side of Wood (35006) between Riverside and Fairlane. Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: Not at this time, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: To Mr. Banko, on the application the Petitioner put on here the existing house was built at the current size before the current lot coverage percentage and is over lot coverage without making any changes to the house. Do you say that’s true? Banko: I would not be able to – I think the house was built back in about ’65. Petitioner: Yes, it was. Banko: I can’t tell you what the lot coverage was in 1965. Aloe: But now is it over without even covering this patio is it? Banko: Well, as it’s written up by Mr. Abrahamson, they’re in excess of the lot coverage and that would be with the addition by 7.2 percent. Aloe: So this came when they added the patio on or the deck on; right? Banko: Well, it’s not until they wanted to cover the deck that it becomes excess lot coverage. Aloe: Oh, I see. Okay, thank you. Fisher: If I may just add, it looks like from Randy’s write up as the present building size is 1,928 sq. ft. and the allowable lot coverage is 1,800, so there is a small excess as of today. Aloe: Mike, what did you say, its 1,928? Fisher: Yes, 1,928 is existing, 1,800 is allowed. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 35 November 15, 2011 Aloe: Okay, thank you. Fisher: Sure. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come to the table? Good evening. Petitioner: Good evening. Henzi: Have a seat. Can you introduce yourselves, please, and give us your address. Petitioner: I’m Joseph Pydlek, 35006 Wood. Cooper: Dan Cooper, 5740 Arcadia Drive in Orchard Lake. Henzi: Gentlemen, go ahead and tell us a little bit of why you want to cover the deck. Petitioner: I have no shade at all back there and it is very, very hot and uncomfortable in the summer and I like to have shelter from the elements and in the wintertime also. I have a privacy fence and I have excessive snow back there build up and I like to have some shelter from the snow as well. I have a spa back there. Henzi: And you have contracted with a builder? Petitioner: Yes. Cooper: Yes, I’m the builder. Henzi: Can you tell us about the building materials associated with your plan. Cooper: Basically, it’s just a flat pan metal aluminum awning and it will have aluminum posts with downspouts. I have some pictures if you would like to see. Henzi: Sure. It’s not retractable, right? Petitioner: No. Cooper: No, it’s a permanent and it will have concrete pier footings under the columns so it doesn’t move. It will be attached to the house underneath the existing overhang and again, it’s not going to be enclosed. It’s going to be open and again he just wants to be able to utilize the patio year round. Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioner? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 35 November 15, 2011 Pastor: The 6 ft. privacy fence that you have there, you have that there because of the hot tub? Petitioner: Yes, privacy, you know. Pastor: And that’s going to remain? Petitioner: Yes. Pastor: Okay, thank you. Henzi: It’s screened off because you’re, you know, because so that your side-yard neighbor doesn’t see in or something else? Am I missing something with respect to the privacy fence? Petitioner: No, it’s just, you know, privacy for, you know, the back patio. Pastor: Do you have any intention in permanently enclosing this area? Petitioner: No. Pastor: Do you any permanent power under this? Are you putting any lighting under this awning? Petitioner: No, I am not putting any power at all under it. Pastor: No heat? Petitioner: No, it will not be enclosed. Pastor: Okay, thank you. Henzi: Any other questions? Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: Can you expand a little bit more on what you’re using for the winter. You have the snow build up in the back of the property and you have a spa; is that outside? Petitioner: Yeah, correct, it’s just on the cement. Duggan: Okay. Petitioner: It’s on the existing cement patio, just a cover. Duggan: Okay, got you. All right, thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 35 November 15, 2011 Henzi: Anything else? Petitioner: We do have some letters from the neighbors that have given approval. Henzi: That would be great. Okay. Petitioner: The ones that have responded that gave them to me. Henzi: We appreciate it. Is there anybody in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project; if so, come on up to the table. I see no one coming forward. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: We have an approval from Bill Wilson [34954 Wood Street]. Lidia Diakiw [34968 Wood St] (letter read). William Sequin [35001 Wood] sends an approval. Ann Wilkes [35015 Wood] has an approval. Kevin Mercure [34961 Wood] sends an approval. Joan Edelmayer [35020 Wood] (letter read). Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor, go ahead. Pastor: Steve, does he need a permit for the privacy fence? Banko: I noticed the privacy screen. It’s a privacy screen that’s there. How many sections do you have there approximately? There’s four sections, two one side and two on the -- Pastor: It appears to be about 28 by 12, or 14. Banko: A permit would be required for the privacy screen. It should have been obtained for the privacy screen. Pastor: Did you get a permit for that fencing? Petitioner: I thought that the contractor had. Pastor: You didn’t do that yourself? Petitioner: No. Pastor: Thank you. Banko: I can further check the records and see if a permit was obtained or wasn’t obtained. I don’t believe I saw it in there or not. I don’t want to make that assumption. Henzi: Okay, any other questions? You have the opportunity to make a closing statement. Is there anything you would like to say? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 35 November 15, 2011 Cooper: We’re just asking the Board to grant a variance for him in this particular situation. Again, the existing house currently exceeds the lot coverage and we’re just asking for a little bit more to be able to cover this – just the roof area only over that rear area for his needs due to the weather and such. Henzi: Thank you, very much. I close the public – did you have something Mr. Pydlek? Petitioner: No. Henzi: Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Ms. McCue. McCue: Personally, it makes sense to me. I think the fact that we’re not necessarily – that the property was put there or that the building construction was put there previously. It makes sense and it looks to me that all you’re doing is adding the awning. I think it would be somewhat illogical to not allow that so I am in support. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: Yeah, I will be I support. I think that the plan looks great and, you know, it would be convenient for him in the summer to have it. So, yes, I will be in support. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I don’t know if I’m very comfortable with this. I understand why you need – why you want it and whatnot, but I’m not comfortable with the fact that we don’t think a permit was pulled for the privacy fence and I don’t see the practical difficulty even though your house is over by a hundred and odd some square feet. I don’t see why – I’m struggling with the fact that we should allow even more. So, I’m on the fence on this one right now. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, because it’s only an awning over a patio that lends itself to me being more in approval than not. Had it been a closed area or confined area that you were asking for with this kind of lot coverage, I’d look at it a little differently. To me it’s just a cover over a patio for the reasons you stated summer and winter so I am going to be in support. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I’m going to agree with Mr. Caramagno. You’re only covering an existing patio. There is a nonconformity already. I don’t think you’re encouraging more it’s just covering it and I think you have a need. If I had a patio and didn’t have any shade, I’d want to be able to cover it so I could use it. So, I will be in support. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I will abstain for personal reasons. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 35 November 15, 2011 Henzi: I agree. I think Mrs. Aloe hit the nail on the head. There is nothing else for me to add except that I was persuaded by the fact that the next door neighbor wrote a letter confirming the bright sun and how the patio is necessary. The floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Aloe, supported by Caramagno, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-46: Joseph Pydlek, 35006 Wood, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to erect a cover over a new deck onto the rear of an existing dwelling resulting in excess lot coverage. Lot Coverage Allowed: 25.0% (1,800 sq. ft.) Proposed: 32.2% (2,320 sq. ft.) Excess: 7.2% ( 520 sq. ft.) The property is located on the north side of Wood (35006) between Riverside and Fairlane, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because a nonconformity already exists due to the lot size. A hardship exists because the patio currently lacks shade affecting Petitioner’s ability to use the patio during the summer and also causes excessive snow coverage during the winter months. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because Petitioner would like to enjoy his deck and have shade so he can use it during the summer. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the Petitioner does have neighbor support and this will not affect his immediate neighbors. 4. The Board received (2) letters of approval and no letters of objection. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low-density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the cover will be constructed according to the drawings and information provided to the Board. 2. That the deck will never be enclosed. 3. That upon the Building Department’s direction, Petitioner will obtain a permit for the existing privacy fence if one has not already been obtained. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 35 November 15, 2011 4. That the variance is good for (1) one year. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Aloe, Caramagno, Duggan, McCue, Pastor, Henzi NAYS: None ABSTAIN: Sills Henzi: The variance is granted with those four conditions. I will read them one more time. You have to construct it according to the drawings that you submitted and the info that you provided tonight. You can’t enclose the awning. It’s good for one year which means you’ve got one year within which to complete construction. You have to obtain a permit for the privacy fence in the backyard if you haven’t already. Good luck. Petitioner: Thank you very much. Cooper: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 35 November 15, 2011 ______________________________________________________________________________ (7:17 # 510) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-47: Ryan Foley, 19277 Fitzgerald, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a 4-ft. tall chain-link style fence, which is not on or about the rear property line and creating a dog run over 200 sq. ft; both requests are not allowed. The property is located on the west side of Fitzgerald (19277) between Seven Mile Road and Pembroke. Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add to this case? Banko: Not at this time, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? Hearing none, will the Petitioner please come forward? Can you tell us your names and address, please? Petitioner: Ryan Foley, 19277 Fitzgerald Street. Petitioner: Laura Foley, 19277 Fitzgerald Street. McIlquham: Carter McIlquham, 19307 Fitzgerald Street, next door neighbor. Henzi: Mr. Banko – we’ll give you a chance in just a second, but first we are going to address our questions to the Petitioners. Mr. and Mrs. Foley, why don’t you tell us why you want to construct a fence and the manner that you propose. Petitioner: Really, the main problem is the creek that runs through the backyard. We don’t want to have to fence over that for multiple reasons. First off, fencing up to that would create an area that if we were to have children in the future or any of our friends that do have children were to bring them over, we wouldn’t have to worry about any danger of them going into the creek; and then also, the dog that we have getting into the creek as well or being able to escape through the water underneath the fence or over the fence if it were to dip down. And then the other reason would be for the debris would obviously catch because of the flow of the creek. So, and then the final reason would be the lot size itself is around half an acre so fencing in the area that we want to fence in is more reasonable than fencing all the way to the back of the property which would be around three times as large. Henzi: Is there anybody else on Fitzgerald that has fencing now like you propose? Petitioner: No, no one has. No one next to us that have the creek have the same type of fencing. Henzi: Can you tell us about the dog, you know, the breed. What kind of danger is there of him getting out, that sort of thing. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 35 November 15, 2011 Petitioner: It’s a Chow/Lab mix. It’s very good at escaping, but she is a good temperament with people, not as good temperament with small animals other dogs. So, we tend to keep her on a short leash so that’s mostly the Chow in her. It’s more of a precaution than anything else. We’ve never had any real problems with her, but the breed itself the Chow is known for aggression and guard dog tendencies. I’d rather prevent than have to be reactive to a situation. Henzi: One question I have for Mr. Banko was, in the public notice there’s characterization of a dog run. That’s because they’re dog owners let’s say they had small kids no dog they have would require a variance for all the reasons a dog run wouldn’t come into play, would it? Banko: That is correct. The dog run wouldn’t come into play, but the - obviously the fence at the rear lot line does come into play which is the other part of which is in here. Henzi: Right. I mean this is – would you agree this is not like most of the dog runs that we see where it’s just sort of a rectangular shape in the backyard? Banko: I would definitely agree with that. In fact when you read into the record the letters for approval and disapproval there’s Fox Creek or whatever subdivision that is just to the west here which they’re going to speak in the letter that they don’t allow fences. Actually the way they want to put up the fence basically leaves that whole back area going to the west open and uninvaded -- Henzi: Thank you. Are there any questions for the Petitioners? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Folks, have you considered the electronic dog fence to keep the dog in the area you want? Petitioner: Yeah, we think that she’d probably take the shock. She’s – what she likes to do is she likes to run for approximately two and a half hours and then comes back at almost literally two and a half hours and she’s a little bit wild with that so, I mean, she likes to do it and she’s not crazy or vicious or anything, but she doesn’t necessarily listen. She’s a little bit more independent. Caramagno: Is it a young dog? Petitioner: She’s about four and a half, five years old maybe going on six. We actually got her from the Humane Society. She was about three when we got her. So, that’s only an approximation. I don’t know how much I trust the Humane Society’s numbers all the time. Caramagno: And my other question for you would be because you have such a deep yard and you’ve got that water running through there, you’ve got a little bridge. I walked City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 35 November 15, 2011 back there today. You’ve got a little bridge that goes across – is that your shed in the back? Petitioner: Yes. Caramagno: Okay, how do you work that with the fence with the bridge there? Would you put a gate there? Petitioner: Yeah, yeah, there would be a gate that would be leading up to where the bridge is. Caramagno: How about lawn cutting and things like that? Petitioner: We have two lawn mowers. We have a riding lawn mower and we also have a smaller lawn mower. It’s just a push mower. So we would probably use the push mower for the backyard area and then across the bridge we have the riding lawn mower sorted in the shed so we would just us that for the very far back. Caramagno: Do you keep anything larger in the shed that needs to come back to the front ever? Petitioner: No, just the riding lawn mower. We’re also not intending to fence all the way up to the creek. We don’t want to fence all the way up there. We want to have enough room so that way there’s space in between the creek and the fence. So, if we want to we could get the riding lawn mower around in that area. Caramagno: Okay. Petitioner: Our intention isn’t to go into the fence though because it doesn’t really make sense to ride a riding lawn mower inside of that fenced area. Caramagno: Okay, thank you Petitioner: Yeah. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, okay, is there any one in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? McIlquham: Carter McIlquham, 19307 Fitzgerald. I didn’t get around to sending this in so I thought I would come in tonight. I have a picture of what the creek looks like after a good heavy rain and I think what they want to do is reasonable for that landscape and everything. With the creek when it storms it really runs through there quite heavy and I would be concerned if it was all around the entire property and blocking part of the creek also because the debris would obviously get backed up and if there’s always a certain amount of branches or leaves of whatever that comes down with the storm it would cause some flooding problems beyond what we already have. Henzi: Mr. Macallen, where’s your house in relation to the Foley’s? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 35 November 15, 2011 McIlquham: I’m just north right next door. Henzi: Any other questions? We’ll wait until this goes around to see if anyone wants to ask anything. Is that from this year? McIlquham That was the storm that of course that we had the flooding in Livonia so – but it does get almost that high every time it really rains hard and then it goes away in a couple of hours. So fortunately it’s not a situation where it’s laying there for weeks of whatever. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: So, is this fence going to encroach upon that flooding area? I mean, we have a sketch where the flow of the creek is, but obviously it sounds like when you get a heavy rain that creek overflows. Is that now going to be – the fence going to be in that flow of water? Petitioner: It’s possible. I wasn’t there when that one flooded like that so I don’t know based on where the current line is for where we are trying to put the fence, but it’s possible that that could get water underneath it yeah. Pastor: Okay. Petitioner: I would say it’s probably likely, not as likely as if it were actually going into the creek but pretty likely. Pastor: So how are you going to take of the debris from that? Petitioner: Well, I mean, if you think about it the debris would actually get caught in the yard rather than get caught in the creek. The concern is stopping the flow of the water going down the creek so the water can’t drain and then it would really be flooding his yard. So, my neighbors next door wouldn’t really care, but you’d probably have a problem with this. So, it’s more an issue of keeping it out of the creek than an issue of having debris in my yard. I’m perfectly willing to clean it up but I don’t want to make him have to clean it because of my fence. Pastor: Thank you. Henzi: Mr. Foley, has it been your experience that it drains within a few hours after a heavy rain? Petitioner: Yeah, I’ve never had a problem. I mean, the one time that we ever had it dammed up some kids had taken rocks and kind of stacked them and it actually dammed it up a couple of, you know, like one house down. And, you know, it got backed up but it drains fast. So, I mean, it’s less than a few hours and that one right there is actually a picture from when we had the hundred year rain. You remember this, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 35 November 15, 2011 it was last summer. So, that was before we purchased the house and it wasn’t a problem. Henzi: Any other questions? Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Are you required to have flood insurance? Petitioner: No. Aloe: No, not considered a flood plain. Petitioner: No, we’re in a Zone C. I checked that up in the, what’s that called the -- Aloe: Flood map. Petitioner: Yeah, I – the organization is called -- Aloe: FEMA. Petitioner: Yeah, FEMA, thank you. I looked into that and it’s a Zone C so it’s not required for it. Aloe: Thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Is there anyone else who wants to speak for or against the project, if so, come on up. I see no one coming forward. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: William Cascaden [19250 Fitzgerald] approval (letter read). John Burnett and Helen Hill [19248 Glen Eagles Drive] objection. Dennis Shields [19263 Fitzgerald] approval (letter read). Henzi: Mr. Macallen, we will incorporate your letter into the record. Macallen: Okay. Henzi: But since you spoke, we won’t read it. Macallen: Okay, thank you. Henzi: Mr. and Mrs. Foley, is there anything you would like to say in closing? Petitioner: I guess the only thing would be probably a response to the second letter about the Fox Creek Subdivision so I understand that they don’t allow for fences, but the way that this one is being erected it’s just as Steven was saying that it’s actually the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 35 November 15, 2011 improving the look of their area because they actually have about 12 to 20 ft. maybe of yard rather than half an acre. So, it actually makes it look like there’s a park behind their residence rather than just, you know, 10 or 15 ft. So, it keeps the park looking area aesthetically pleasing. Henzi: Okay, thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Duggan. Duggan: Yeah, you have a unique property with the creek. It will be a unique look but I don’t really know what else you can do. So, I will be in support. I think this is as good of an idea you can make with your property. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Yes, I agree the Petitioners put a lot of thought into this having a dog he doesn’t want the dog to run so I think this is a good plan. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I agree you’ve got a good idea here. This solves your problem. It helps the neighbors to the west of you not be offended – you’re doing these things for what you need and all the right reasons as well so I will be in support. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I also will be in support. I think that the Petitioner does have a uniqueness and a hardship both. I don’t know too many properties in Livonia that have a creek running through it in the middle of their – not even in the middle probably – yeah, it’s probably about one half maybe, that, the creek, the flooding, the size of the lot, the need to have security for their dog and safety from this creek that is running through the middle of their yard so I will be in support. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I, too, will be in support. I think the Petitioners thought this out quite clearly and have come up with the right answers. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I agree, you’ve thought it all through. I think aesthetically it will look very nice on both halves. It will make everybody happy and I think the responsibility with the dog and everything I think that is to be commended as well so I will support. Henzi: I agree with the other Board members. I was sold when I saw the photo. Before seeing the photo I wondered why in the world would these people be worried about their kids walking there, but after seeing that photo I think that they are very wise to do this. The floor is open for a motion. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 35 November 15, 2011 Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-47: Ryan Foley, 19277 Fitzgerald, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a 4-ft. tall chain-link style fence, which is not on or about the rear property line and creating a dog run over 200 sq. ft; both request are not allowed. The property is located on the west side of Fitzgerald (19277) between Seven Mile Road and Pembroke, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the house sits on a piece of property with a creek running through the backyard that appears tame, but can get wild in a heavy rain. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because Petitioner would be unable to keep his dog in the yard as well as safety for visiting children. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the proposed fence will solve issues regarding his pet as well as afford the neighbors behind him their park-like setting. 4. The Board received (2) letters of approval and (1) one letter of objection. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low-density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the Petitioner build the chain-link fence in accordance with the plans submitted to the Board. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Aloe, Duggan, McCue, Sills, Henzi NAYS: None City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 35 November 15, 2011 (7:34 #1/980) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-49: Amani Al-Zawawi, 10165 Laurel, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to maintain a 6-ft. tall privacy fence located adjacent to an existing fence, erected in the side yard and erected without obtaining a permit; all of which are not allowed. The property is located on the west side of Laurel (10165) between Pinetree and Plymouth. Henzi: Mr. Banko, anything to add? Banko: Not at this time, sir. Henzi: Any questions for Mr. Banko? I had one. Mr. Banko, do you know how this came to the attention of the inspection department? Banko: From what I can gather, Mr. Stratman is the one that was out there regarding this, but I thought it had something to do with – actually there was a complaint that was logged regarding a privacy fence that went up with no permit. Henzi: Okay. Will the Petitioners please come forward. Good evening. Petitioner: Good evening. Henzi: Welcome back I should say. Can you introduce yourselves, please? Petitioner: Baher El-Said. I am a Professor at Olivet College. My wife Amani Al- Zawawi and we live at 10165 Laurel Street. Henzi: Okay. Tell us why you want to maintain the privacy fence. Petitioner: Well, we purchased our home as foreclosed property in 2007 and once we started living in the property the far backyard, the second half of the backyard was a huge panorama of dead leaves, dead trees, and spiders and all kinds of jungle-like life that’s all over there. And I think underneath down there was lots of moles and other things digging to the extent that one day we emptied the swimming pool and went through one of the holes and it disappeared. We didn’t any flood of water coming out. So, I believe like there was a humongous community of moles and gophers living underneath. Once we removed this and we saw the fence that was there which was a 3-ft. fence, chain fence, our son, our middle son who was just a year and a half at that time was just starting to walk and I saw him facing a huge black-jack dog across from the fence and the black-jack dog was putting his hands over the fence. For me it looked like a very scary scene. Some of our neighbors, and by the way, all of our neighbors have dogs. Some of them were nice enough to put an invisible fence so that the dogs won’t come and approach the kids, but some of them didn’t care and at that point we City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 35 November 15, 2011 needed to address at least the fear that the kids would have. We have another kid that came after that he’s 8 ½ now and our middle son is around three years. So, we started thinking of placing the privacy fence especially that everybody has double fences around us and we started putting it like six inches inside and we asked the contractors to do that and to try to pull a permit if that’s needed. So, we constructed the fence that was around me in April and on August we got a notice from the City that we need to remove the fence. And at that point, we were either have to remove the fence or come to the Zoning Board to see what we can do. Henzi: Describe the double fence that you say your neighbors -- Petitioner: First of all, all the fences that are not constructed they are not even stable to the ground from one of our neighbors and those actually were discussed the idea that we have to remove the old fence with them. They said no, we don’t want to remove it because they already have an invisible fence on it. On a different situation there is a plastic fence surrounding the property and it’s like 6 inches inside the property that southwest to us. And there is another privacy fence on the property next to it. Henzi: Okay, any questions for the Petitioners? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: So why do you need to have both fences? I mean, our Ordinances forbid to have fence on fence. Petitioner: It’s not on the same fence it’s like 6 inches inside our property. Pastor: Our ordinance prohibits that and the reason it does and I will tell you why. If you go to the north side of your property, between the two fences there is a tree growing or a large bush growing between them and they are getting inter-tangled and you can’t cut the lawn in between those two fences. So, you have an unsightly situation where weeds or trees or bushes can start growing in between those fences and you can’t maintain them. Petitioner: We can spray like weed killers and there’s ones that we can pull them. Pastor: But you haven’t and it is as tall as I am. Petitioner: Inside our property? Pastor: Between the two fences on the north side of the property. Petitioner: We don’t have weeds in -- Pastor: There’s a bush or a tree or -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 35 November 15, 2011 Petitioner: No, it’s in the neighbor’s property it’s not in our property. Pastor: But it’s between the fences. It’s growing in between the fences. Petitioner: Actually I just checked it this morning and -- Pastor: I went by this evening. I went by it at 5:30 this evening, 5:00 o’clock and saw it, to the north side towards the far corner of your property. That’s why we prohibit fence on fence or two fences backing up to each other like that. I remember this case when you were asking for your daycare center and this fence came up, but at that time we told you it’s not allowed. So why haven’t we either corrected it or give us a good reason to allow it because I haven’t heard a good reason to allow it right now. Petitioner: The only reason that I am asking to have the fence is to protect our kids and if you want us to remove the fence at that point and remove the other fences and start building them over, the daycare will be full of dogs at that point and I cannot allow it to be there for at least two or three days until the fence is erected again. Pastor: I understand protecting your children. I totally understand that, but -- Petitioner: I think we are more important than weeds growing in the middle especially that the other neighbor on the south end has weeds like 6-ft. along his other his other fence and it’s growing over there and nobody complained from it. For 6 inches of weeds, we need to remove the fence and endanger our kids. Pastor: Actually we remove the fence because it is not allowed. Now, I don’t have a problem if you take the chain link down and attach it to the post. I don’t have a problem with that, but to have two fences that close together is a maintenance problem. Also, it is unsightly in my opinion. Petitioner: I’m sorry I didn’t understand the last thing? Pastor: It’s unsightly. Petitioner: On the side way? Pastor: It’s unsightly. It’s unattractive, two fences together, it’s against the ordinance. I just – I’m done. Henzi: Any other questions? Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: You know your concern about taking the fence down and then the yard would be open, but if it is already fenced off with the privacy fence why can’t you go in back of it now and take the chain-link fence down? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 35 November 15, 2011 Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Our neighbors they have the dog -- Aloe: I can’t hear you, what? Mrs. Al-Zawawi: The neighbors they have each one have at least three doggies and the doggies they dig in their yards to come to our area. They like dig in the soil down. So they might come to our yard. I’m a scary woman. I can’t, I can’t, I can’t be in front of the doggy. One day I went outside in front yard to bring my daughter from the bus and one of the neighbor, he just lift the dog without his chain. So that the dog came to me and I was screaming all the time and I know in my mind that I have to stop running so that the dog will stay, but the dog he just came to me and I was looking to the door. I said, I can’t, I can’t make it. I can’t go to house - to my house because he will be coming to me. So I stopped and he came and he was like barking a lot and I said, stop, stop. Our neighbor they have three dogs, big dogs, they were just barking to this dog. He left. I went home and I called my husband. I said, I can’t bring my daughter from the bus. There is a doggy is like free dog. He can’t come to me or to my kids. This is the only day I went out without my kids. I was thinking if I had my son one and a half years he will run. I can’t – the dog will beat him and I won’t do anything. So we want to protect our kids and ourselves. I am a woman that I scared from the animals. I can’t imagine myself in front of a cat or a dog or whatever. Aloe: So are you telling me that even with this privacy fence if the cyclone fence was down, these dogs would dig into your yard? Mrs. Al-Zawawi: They are digging, yes. Aloe: So you’re telling me that the cyclone does protect your property from these dogs? Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Hopefully. Petitioner: No, she’s saying that she’s scared from the – she didn’t speak about the cyclone. She’s speaking about the chain fence. Aloe: But what she was saying was out in front it wasn’t even -- Petitioner: It was the front. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: I couldn’t go to the back. Aloe: Now, that’s an issue where they’re in the wrong and you should be calling the City and complaining. And I don’t think that you’re allowed to have – how many dogs are you allowed to have, Mr. Banko? Banko: You’re allowed up to three dogs. Aloe: You can have three? Banko: Yes. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 35 November 15, 2011 Aloe: But if those dogs are out and they’re not on a leash. They’re not in their yards you should be calling the City. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: But, you know, there is no time to call the City. Aloe: No, not at that time, but when you come back in your house you should be calling the City because now you’re outside of your fence. So we’re not even talking about a fenced area. We’re just talking about being out in the front of your home. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yeah. Aloe: Well, you shouldn’t – you have rights too and you shouldn’t be afraid to go in your front yard because these dogs are out of the yard and not on a leash. We have a leash law. You have to have your dog on a leash. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yeah, but, you know, they are nice neighbors. I can’t say any word our neighbors they are really nice, but they meant to like the dogs. We are different. I am a, you know, my husband he had dogs before he married me. Aloe: There is a leash law. You’re not allowed to have your dog off a leash. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: I know it happens sometimes accidently. I’m not in this situation. I’m in my situation my kids. If my son outside and the dogs beat him even if we go to the backyard, you know, they are digging down. So I want to be fair, I want my kids to play, you know, and to have fun not just to be kid and to stay at home most of the time we stay at home. We don’t go outside because of these things. Aloe: Yes, but you’re saying in one sentence that you need the privacy fence to protect the kids, but then you’re saying in another sentence that it’s the cyclone fence that keeps them from digging into your yard. So my question is, which is the fence that is the better – Mrs. Al-Zawawi: For me? Aloe: Pardon? Mrs. Al-Zawawi: For me, which one is better for me? Aloe: Right. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: I don’t know. The first one is to make the distance between us and the neighbors. The second one is in our area so it’s long enough for my kids and if I will do – because I’m doing the project for the daycare. I will be having other kids also so if they will come and play there I don’t want them to hurt from any accident from dog from here or there. So I think both of them they will do the what we are looking for. Aloe: But if you can’t have two fences together which fence is the better fence for you? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 35 November 15, 2011 Petitioner: She’s asking you a question. Would it be okay for you to remove the chain fence from outside and keep the wood fence? Mrs. Al-Zawawi: I am thinking about the second fence is not forever. It’s a wood fence first and the second point it’s like – how long will it stay like five years? My kids will be like after the smaller one will be seven years old something like that. You know, it’s different than one and half, you know, so after that we will remove it. We don’t need it. I don’t know long – we are needing now this fence, but in the future I think we don’t need it. We will build something else maybe I don’t know. Petitioner: I think, we don’t care much about the chain fence as much as we care about the property line that we need to keep it. We don’t want to affect anybody. That’s why we try to put it to ourselves. And for addressing the maintenance issue, I’m wondering, all of our neighbors have double fences and I think some of them have like triple fences. And why is it a problem for us not for everybody else in the neighborhood? I’m surprised if it’s only us that cannot maintain our backyard or six inch in the backyard, it’s a big problem for us while everybody else can do it. I don’t think we have superman’s in our neighborhood. Henzi: Everyone in your neighborhood who has a double fence is in violation of the ordinance not just you Petitioner: So, we have lots of superman’s in the neighborhood who can paint those six inches that are causing this trouble. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: That’s only one point it’s no I’m – because of my religion also when I am outside in that area I can take my feet to sit and to play with my kids to take my time to do whatever with my kids like to play with them, have fun with my kids instead of like everyone can see me outside so I don’t know -- Henzi: I have a question for Steve. Do you know when ordinance enforcement went out if anybody else received a notice to remove a double fence? Banko: The complaint came in when this fence went up. The fence to the south of them appears it has been there for a long period of time. Most likely it would be hard to prove that it’s not a nonconforming fence. I believe that’s right up against the cyclone if I’m not mistaken. Which other fence are you talking about other than the fence to the south? Petitioner: There is another fence right next to it and then there is another fence standing up next to us. There are like two or three people who have double fences at least. Banko: Well, if there’s another double fence in the area which is not a nonconforming fence by all means, if you have an address, by all means give me the address and we will -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 35 November 15, 2011 Petitioner: I don’t want, I don’t want to complain of any of our neighbors. That’s the other thing. We’re new to the area. We respect everybody. We don’t want anybody to have any problem with the City or if he has a problem with the City we don’t want to inflame it and that’s our standing on the point. And if anybody has a problem with us, we’re more than happy to resolve it – his problem whatever he likes. We don’t want to live on the expenses of anybody else and I’m sorry I’m not going to name or point fingers on anybody. I’m sorry. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Did you not say at the beginning of this that you had a contractor put up the fence? Petitioner: Yes, we have a contractor. His name is Handy Man. I have his number on my cell phone. Pastor: And you didn’t know if he pulled a permit or not? Petitioner: I was under the impression that he pulled a permit -- Pastor: That’s why -- Petitioner: I was under the impression. I was really busy during that time when he was erecting the fence. I remember – I don’t know if you remember me when I came, I was all sweating I was coming from – traveling to the west side of the state and coming back on the same day just to attend this. And it was, it was really busy, a very busy time for me. I barely have two hours of sleep a day at that time so I didn’t the amount of time to check with him if he has a permit or not. I know it’s my responsibility, but I admit that I should have done that, but I’m sorry I didn’t have enough time to do that. Even the payments I was doing the payments with him on the phone. Pastor: Mr. Banko, I assume that there was no permit pulled. Banko: For this fence? Pastor: Yes. Banko: No, there is still no permit for this fence. No application made for this fence to my knowledge. Pastor: Okay. And we had a case on this what was it last year or this year? So, this situation has been here for approximately a year. I don’t remember exactly when we had the last meeting and as of at that time you have not made an application to the City for a fence in 2011 – you haven’t done anything when we brought it up at the last meeting about the fence. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 35 November 15, 2011 Petitioner: No, the last meeting there was no recommendation about the fence. There was no recommendations. Pastor: We brought it up as a problem. Petitioner: I don’t remember anybody mentioned the fence as a problem or something that you have to address at that point. Somebody mentioned there was a fence on construction at that time which was true, but nobody mentioned anything about being a problem. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: We made zoning for the daycare. I was going to make it 12 kids still I’m working on it. Pastor: Thank you. Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: To Mr. Banko, is this a nonconforming lot for RUF or does it meet the half acre requirement? Banko: There are RUF properties that do not have a half an acre in their RUF properties that have a half an acre or more. Aloe: Which is this though? Is this under or over half an acre? Banko: You’re like my wife now you’re asking me a question I can’t answer. Aloe: I mean, can’t you tell by the size 50 x 288 if it meets the -- Pastor: 56 x 288 and that’s probably just under a half. Aloe: Square feet or something. Pastor: That’s what I’m reading. From the plot plan it looks 66 x 288 x 5. Aloe: But the inspection report shows 50 x 288? Fisher: A really big difference. Aloe: I’m just curious if it even meets the RUF requirement or if it’s a nonconforming lot. Henzi: Do you see anything Steve? Banko: Well, I’m looking at the mortgage survey and I’m looking at -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 35 November 15, 2011 Petitioner: It’s more than half an acre if looking still for the size. It’s more than half an acre. Banko: If it’s 66 by – which obviously it is by the 288. Henzi: Can you tell us why you constructed the fence in the side yard? That’s another violation. Petitioner: In the side yard? Henzi: Yes. Petitioner: We bought the property like this. We didn’t – Henzi: Do you know what I mean when I say side yard? Your fence is supposed to start at the rear of the home it comes beyond the rear of the home towards the front. That’s not allowed. That’s the side yard. Why did you erect a fence on the side yard without permission? Petitioner: You mean the L-shape part beside the house? Henzi: Yeah. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Which part? Petitioner: We can remove that we have no problem. We have no problem with that. As I told you, I was really busy even to over view what’s going on at that time. I don’t think we have problem with moving this part, you mean next to the house just beside the house. Henzi: Right. Petitioner: There is no problem removing that, but actually the old fence was still up at that point. It looks like the old owners used to drive his 4 x 4 or drive a four-wheel drive across it. So, he pulled it. Banko: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Banko. Banko: Just to let you know the cyclone that you have in the side yard is a permitted fence, but when you brought the privacy fence past the rear of your house up into the side yard and then L-ed across that portion of the privacy fence is not permitted there, sir, if you get my understanding. Petitioner: I got you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 35 November 15, 2011 Henzi: You might want to make clear before you start removing it what the inspection department or what you’re supposed to do, if that’s your intent to remove that portion. I wouldn’t want you to remove something that you’re entitled to have, but since you have offered to remove that part comes into the side yard I think we can move on. My next question is I haven’t heard a reason why you can’t just get with your neighbors and eliminate the double fence. All I have heard is we talked to our neighbors and everyone liked it so here we are. Petitioner: We have written notes from them. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: Yeah, they like it. Petitioner: And there is no objection from all over neighbors. Henzi: I understand there is no objection, but you don’t have a plan tonight for us how you’re going to remove the fence. Petitioner: I’d prefer to remove the cyclone fence, the chain fence, the old one, and leave the new erected fence. Henzi: Did any of your neighbors say that would be okay? Petitioner: I didn’t check it. It first came to us when she suggested that a few minutes ago, but we can do it. But actually it will add to the property. Henzi: It what? Petitioner: It will add to the property. It won’t harm them in any way. Henzi: What will add to the property? Petitioner: Removing the chain fence. Pastor: Add to their property, the neighbor’s property I believe he’s referring to. Petitioner: It will be like add six inch to their property. Henzi: Well if you accomplish that, that solves your double fence problem. I don’t know why you didn’t do that two months ago. It’s hard for me to believe that these neighbors wouldn’t have gone for that. I certainly wouldn’t want to look at my cyclone fence if somebody puts up a big new beautiful fence. Is that something that you think you could accomplish? You think your neighbors will be willing to remove the cyclone fence in exchange for having your brand new privacy fence? Mrs. Al-Zawawi: It’s different fences. I think, I don’t know. We don’t want to be inside the problem with our neighbors. We live – I don’t know how long we will stay, you know, each one has different kind of fence, plastic fence. There are different kinds so, we can’t like let them do what we want. We put the wood fence in our area so it’s like – it City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 35 November 15, 2011 will do what we want and we kept what the old fence and it should be agreed from before. So, we kept not to have any problem – my English is not helping. I’m sorry. Petitioner: You can speak and I can translate. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: We bought it with the first fence there is no problem with it. So, our problem with our kids needs a new fence like what we have now. Our neighbors they have different fences so we can’t let them like to have what we need. Our fence is different. They have plastic, its different fences. We can’t let take what we want. Henzi: Well, we’re in this position because you went and did this without a permit, but you have offered your neighbors the option of removing their fence then you wouldn’t have this predicament. So my question is, did you offer them the option of removing the pre-existing fence? Petitioner: No, we didn’t. No, we didn’t. Henzi: So maybe some will go for it and maybe some won’t; fair enough? Petitioner: According to our neighbors they said everything you want to do that’s – I’m quoting them – everything you want we will agree on it right now. Henzi: To me that is a little bit more reasonable than coming before this Board and saying I don’t want to remove the cyclone fence because, you know, the dogs are all going to come in. I mean, I didn’t follow that at all. So let me ask you this, are you willing to go back to your neighbors and ask, to talk to them about -- Mrs. Zawawi: They don’t accept it. I know that. They won’t accept it. Petitioner: They won’t accept what? He’s asking to remove the chain fence. Mrs. Zawawi: Remove all the fence and rebuild this what he want? Petitioner: No, just remove the chain fence from around the neighbor then leave the new built fence. Mrs. Zawawi: Oh, I don’t know. Petitioner: That’s what you’re suggesting; right? Henzi: Yes, eliminate the double fence by removing one. Keep yours, remove the others. Petitioner: For me it sounds reasonable. For you it sounds okay? Mrs. Zawawi: I don’t want to be a problem with my neighbors. I want to be like fair, you know, I don’t want anyone to be like I’m pushing him to leave this fence. No, I want them to, you know, to feel free with their area. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 35 November 15, 2011 Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Steve, forgive me, I forgot to even look at this. What side is facing out? Banko: I believe the – Pastor: Good side or bad side? Caramagno: Bad side out. Petitioner: Yeah, the bad side is out. Caramagno: Bad side it out. Pastor: So we have an issue there, too. Caramagno: Yes. Pastor: I forgot to even look. Mrs. Zawawi: We can fix it. We can fix something. Henzi: Did you have a comment? Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Yeah, we got a comment or two. Obviously, I think you need to do something different and approach your neighbors about taking down their cyclone fence or whatever else they have there. The other issue that I’ve got is you built that fence six inches inside your property line and while that currently you felt fixes the problem that you’ve got, going forward taking say the cyclone fence on the north side that really still doesn’t fix the problem. Because now you’ve got six inches of property on the other side of your privacy fence that who is going to maintain? It’s still your property. It has to be maintained. You can’t go in there if they’ve got dogs. Now, the neighbors are maintaining your property. It’s a mess the way it is right now. I think you need to go rewrite this thing. Talk to your neighbors and make – this can work I think, but as of right now having a fence six inches inside your property line with no plan to maintain your property it just isn’t good. Overall it’s not a good picture. Are you donating that property to your neighbor because after so long they’re going to say, listen, I’m going to take this property and put a fence up? You’re surrendering this land. It’s a problem. You have a lot more work to do here. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Steve, on the fence are the posts – I’m assume there are. Do you remember? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 35 November 15, 2011 Banko: I think the posts are on the outside; aren’t they? Pastor: If they’re on the outside and he turned the fence so the good side is facing the neighbor like the code calls for, the six inches would basically disappear. Banko: All but two of it. Pastor: All but an inch and a -- Banko: Well, yes, the six inches would disappear and it would be back where it should be. Pastor: Okay. Thank you. Henzi: Did you understand that what he is saying? Petitioner: Yeah, he said that if we change putting the nice side outside and leaving the posts on our side that would almost resolve the problem of the six inches. Henzi: Right, yes. Okay. Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up. Martin: Yes, Christopher Martin, 12275 Inkster Road, Livonia. I attend a lot of meetings and some statements were made. I just want to make sure we have this clear. This is a little bit separate from the Petitioner asking for this privacy fence some comments were made. Chairman Henzi you said that there were other fences in violation in the area of being a privacy fence next to a sidewalk. Well, if it was done prior to 1993 when the Fence Ordinance took affect, then they are not in violation. The other thing that was mentioned was and it was mentioned twice that we have a leash law. Are you aware of that, Mr. Fisher? Fisher: There is a law that requires dogs when they are not in or on the owner’s premise to be kept under reasonable control. Martin: Not a leash law. A leash law is like if you take your pet out side of your property that you must have it on a leash. We do not have a leash law. I have gone to those meetings numerous times. Henzi: That was with respect to the prior case not this one. I know you are trying to educate us and point out that somebody might have made a misstatement because you derive some kind of satisfaction from that, but why don’t we talk about this case the double fence. Martin: This Petitioner mentioned a fear of animals. Okay? It was mentioned twice that there is a leash law – it simply doesn’t. It’s a fact. Henzi: Your point is. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 35 November 15, 2011 Martin: My point is that you need to be fair with people and when you make a statement that a fence is in violation it’s only in violation if it was done after ’93. That’s what I’m trying to say. Sometimes statements are made as if they’re the law or if you’re a -- Henzi: Mr. Banko. Banko: With all due respect to the Chair, I do believe that I did make the statement that the fence to the south appeared to be a nonconforming fence, Mr. Martin. Martin: Yes, I do remember you saying that, but another statement was made that they were all in violation and that’s the only thing I’m talking about. I’m not here necessarily to education I just want to be fair with everyone. Henzi: I think the minutes will reflect what was said why don’t you move on. Martin: Thank you. Henzi: Anybody else wanting to speak for or against the project? Petitioner: Yes, I want to ask the same question that brought us over here and it’s written on the statement from the neighbors. Why is it fair for some other people to keep double fences and it’s not right us for the same six inch maintenance problem? They have the six inch maintenance problem. Henzi: Like Mr. Banko explained earlier, if those fences are in violation it’s not right. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Petitioner: So, you’re correcting one wrong which is us and leaving the others although you saw it by your own eyes. Henzi: We don’t have the information about the other cases. I made statements based on what you put in your application. You’re the one who argued -- Petitioner: And it is stated by all our neighbors also on the same -- Henzi: You argued in your application that one of the reasons why you deserve the double fence is because other folks had double fences and that because they were in violation then this must be a minor violation for you which should be accepted. Do you have any proof to offer us that those other fences are in violation? Petitioner: I didn’t bring the picture but everybody even in the minutes you mentioned by yourself – you mentioned by yourself that statement and we have paper written by and signed by all our neighbors that everybody has double fences and it’s attached in our documents that everybody else has double fences in the area. And it states by one of our neighbors why is it fair others and unfair for us? Henzi: Is there anybody else in the audience who wants to speak? I see no one. Are there letters? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 35 November 15, 2011 Caramagno: Yes, I think so. We have an approval from Cindy Cezat [10270 Laurel Street]. We have Kimberly Palmer [10219 Laurel] that writes an approval (letter read). Henzi: Okay. What would you like to say in closing? Petitioner: I would like to thank everybody for taking the time to give us their experience and I don’t see anything in adverse between me and anybody over here. And what we came over here is to try to learn how to maintain our property and keep it in the proper shape with the help of the City of Livonia. We are not against anybody, but we want the fair judgment. What is fair for somebody must be fair for the others. Henzi: Thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, this is plainly a case that the Petitioner brought upon himself. But I feel that he is not quite understanding the differences with himself and his neighbors. So, I think in fairness to him I think if Mr. Banko worked with him – I think what I will probably end up doing is offer a tabling motion maybe get with the Building Department, if you would, please and coach him on what we’ve talked about and hopefully he can get his neighbors to allow him to take down the chain-link fence. He can turn his fence around and to make if fall within our Ordinance and I wouldn’t haven’t any problem allowing him to have the privacy fence. But until those things are done, I don’t think I can go along with this. So that’s where I stand. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, I would like to see you have the fence. I think you make good reasons why you should have it for the dog and privacy and the young children. But me thinking you should have it and it being erected as it is right now, those things don’t match. I don’t want to see you have property on the other side of that fence that you can’t maintain. I don’t like to see you have property between the fences that you can’t maintain. I think you need to take this farther with your neighbors and talk about removing that cyclone fence and then moving your fence over so it’s proper and right. I think that will benefit you down the road. I don’t think it’s a bad thing to want what you want, but as it sits right now my answer would be no. But once you fix these things I don’t see any reason why I wouldn’t approve it. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I have to agree with Mr. Caramagno. I mean, I think the Petitioner has definitely given us good reason of why they need a privacy fence. There’s no doubt about that, but what they’ve done and what they’ve created there, you know, the issue of not being able to maintain property between two fences, you know, maintaining property on the outside of the fence line. It’s just created issues and those issues are not acceptable and therefore, I would offer a tabling resolution. Go back, go back to your neighbors, and put the fence with the right side out on the outside of the poles. You will gain property back and you’ll completely eliminate this double fencing where City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 35 November 15, 2011 you have property there that can’t be maintained by anyone. So that would be my suggestion. Henzi: Mr. Sills. Sills: I go along with the comments made by the last three people. I think that Craig has got a good point in having the Petitioner first go to the Building Department – or go to Steve Banko and get his ducks in a row before he goes talking to his neighbors because going to talk to your neighbors before you’re really sure of what you’re talking about could create more of a monster than what you’ve got now. So I couldn’t approve this thing the way it is now and I would entertain a tabling motion to get a chance to come up even on this thing anyway. Henzi: Mrs. McCue. McCue: I am kind of repeating what everybody else has said. I understand why you want the fence. It makes total sense why you want the fence, but I don’t think there’s been any kind of proof or case made as to why we need to make some sort of an exception to that rule. So I would go back to what Mr. Pastor said if we can fix the fence, turn it around, make up for the space, then I would support it, but until that time I don’t think I can support it. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: Safety for your children is extremely important and I do think you need a fence, but I do think you need to communicate with your neighbors because someone somewhere complained and that’s how we got it. So if you can fix it with your neighbors and come to an agreement and if there are other fences in your area that are double fenced as well, please inform us and we will hold them accountable. But someone somewhere complained about you and that’s how we got it. Can you try and communicate with your neighbors and come to a solution and we will help you out. Henzi: I agree, the way it exists is not acceptable, but there is a way to fix this. And I think Mr. Pastor’s suggestion was a good one. If somebody is going to make a tabling resolution we might want to require them to come back on or before, I don’t know, April 1 or May 1 for a couple reasons. Number one, I would like to see them come back and fix it, but number two, I think it’s only fair to give them time to remove that fence from the side yard which they volunteered to do and we’re in the middle of November and I wouldn’t expect them to do that in the next couple of months so if we require them to come back then we will be able to control a little bit about when they remove that. So, that’s what I’d like to see I guess. Mr. Banko, go ahead. Banko: Sure, if I can make one comment I would appreciate it. With what everybody has said here, if in fact they went through and spoke to their neighbor turn the fence around the other way and were to remove that cyclone fence actually they could take the privacy fence out of the side yard, the point is moot. They would not even need to be here once they have the approval of the neighbor to the north who I’m sure there is a City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 35 November 15, 2011 letter of approval there from the neighbor to the north. So, I do believe in what you say maybe having a conversation with the owner. Petitioner: Do you know how much it will cost to take off the first fence and remove the second one and fix it? It would take too much money. We made the second one from our money without making the other neighbors to share us payment. We make it inside our – if we make it instead of the chain one and we put the wood in that side, we might make the neighbors share us the payment, but they might say no they don’t want to pay any. This time the people think about any dollar because, you know, it’s not easy with the economic. So we made the fence inside our security so we made the payments from our pocket and we have four kids. With that we said it’s okay because we want to protect our kids with that. Now the problem that you are looking at the new fence it is not our fault. The guy who made the fence he made it the nice look in our area. We don’t have experience with the fences. It’s the first time for us to make a fence so with that we will pay to fix the look for the people. Like we can put something from outside but with minimum payments, but if we will take the first fence and the second fence it will take too much money from us. Henzi: I don’t think anyone is accusing you of doing anything malicious. I think everyone was very understanding of the fact that this is the first time that you have experienced a fence issue like this, but it’s against the rules what you did. And anybody in the City of Livonia who wants to erect a privacy fence has to get with the neighbor remove the cyclone fence and then put up the privacy fence and so there is a cost associated with – Mrs. Al-Zawawi: We put the wooden -- Henzi: There is a cost associated with what you want to do especially if you’ve got to comply with the ordinances. So what we’re discussing is to try and give you a break and now we’re trying to figure out should we make you come back in April or should we just put this off for a couple weeks so why don’t you tell us would you like to turn the good side of the fence around in the next couple of weeks so that this issue becomes moot and you don’t need our assistance or -- Mrs. Al-Zawawi: We can’t do that. Henzi: Okay. All right -- Mrs. Al-Zawawi: It’s too much money. Henzi: Got it. Okay. We know what to do then Pastor: I’ll offer a tabling resolution, but it sounds to me like they’re unwilling to do that and the only other resolution I think that will be approved is a motion to deny. So, I will give you one more chance at that apple because if you don’t go with a tabling resolution to talk to your neighbors, you’re going to get denied and you’re going to have to take it down. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 35 November 15, 2011 Mrs. Al-Zawawi: But out - why don’t we think we’ll talk about that because – we would like to have, you know, a day care. Hopefully it will work so we need, you know, to put up also the other kids from the doggies. So we need the second fence. Henzi: Understood but this is so common that the building department has a form that people come in and get when they want to erect a privacy fence. And it’s got several boxes they can check and we see cases like this every year, all year long. This is a very common occurrence and what you’re doing is something – or what you’re refusing to do is something that people do on a weekly basis in the city of Livonia. Is it weekly or more, Steve? How many times do people come in for the -- Banko: I’m sure it’s weekly, biweekly. It happens that I can’t give you a case in point but it’s common. Mrs. Al-Zawawi: I don’t know. My husband he wants -- Petitioner: I think - she was trying to make the motion that it’s going to be really – it’s going to be like to be like a break to our back to do any kind of moving the fence outside. The idea of removing the cyclone fence I don’t think she’s liking it that much and she’s the owner of the property. I do respect her opinion on that point, but I have a personal question outside everything with no offense on anybody. I hear the word you must talk to your neighbors, you must speak with your neighbors, as if we haven’t spoken with our neighbors and I heard the word complain and according to our neighbors nobody is saying who complained so -- Henzi: What does that matter? Pastor: They’re much like you they don’t want to cause too much of a problem. Petitioner: Yeah, but the point, the same point I didn’t complain from anybody but I’m just trying to know who is the complainer? At least what kind of problem does he have with that fence? Everybody else has no problem with that fence and they even as you said they didn’t bring it to the attention of anybody. It’s something that people living in this property trying to leave it erected and you say it’s so common over here and it’s not something like the end of the world. But we are tying to find something reasonable as you’re asking us why did you do that? We’re trying to find something reasonable? Why should we remove it and the only idea that I’m having is it’s the property and the six inches between you and others you cannot maintain it and that there would be weeds inside it. And I personally am not convinced that that was kind of a fair judgment. I feel like it’s -- Henzi: You are rehashing what we have already discussed. Petitioner: Yeah. Henzi: The issue is are you refusing to remove the cyclone fence or do you want time to think about it because if you’re telling us you’re never going to talk to the neighbors to remove the cyclone fence -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 35 November 15, 2011 Petitioner: I’m ready personally -- Henzi: Hold on one at a time because I’m trying to make a record. The court reporter can’t take down when we’re both talking. But if you’re saying that you absolutely cannot ask your neighbors to consider removing the cyclone fence because you think that you’ll bear the cost and you can’t afford, then I think we’re going to make a motion accordingly. If you say to us we’d like more time, then we’ll make a different type of motion. Petitioner: Okay. I’ll give you my choice. I personally prefer to have more time to consider what our other options do we have -- Pastor: Mr. Chair, I’d like to make a motion to table this case. Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Sills, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-11-49: Amani Al-Zawawi, 10165 Laurel, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to maintain a 6-ft. tall privacy fence located adjacent to an existing fence, erected in the side yard and erected without obtaining a permit; all of which are not allowed. The property is located on the west side of Laurel (10165) between Pinetree and Plymouth be tabled to allow Petitioners time to seek neighbor approval and to consult with the Building Department to come up with a plan that may help them keep their privacy fence. Petitioners have until April 17, 2012 to return to the Board with a resolution. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Sills, Aloe, Caramagno, Duggan, McCue, Henzi NAYS: None Henzi: This was tabled. You have to come back on or before April 17th of 2012. In the meantime if you talk to Mr. Banko and others in the Inspection Department, they’ll help you go forward. Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor, to approve the minutes of the 9/27/2011. All were in favor. Motion by Pastor, supported by Mrs. Aloe, to approve 2012 ZBA calendar. All were in favor. Mrs. Zawawi: Did you read the approval from our neighbor? He wrote an approval for you. Henzi: Was it an approval? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 35 November 15, 2011 Mrs. Al-Zawawi: From our neighbor. He wants – he accepted the fence. Petitioner: One question before we leave. Henzi: Where was the letter? Did he give it to you to bring here? Mrs. Al-Zawawi: No, no, he gave us a copy to show to us. He gave us a copy. Petitioner: By the way, how many approvals? How many letters from the neighbors? Pastor: You read the letters, didn’t you? Caramagno: Yes, there was two. There were two approvals. Petitioner: All the others denied? Caramagno: No, that’s all you had was two approvals. That’s all that sent them in. Henzi: Two letters. Fisher: We do not appear to have a letter that the Al-Zawawi’s have provided us with. There would be a third approval if we counted this one. Henzi: We did not have that. Petitioner: They didn’t send it by mail or they sent it late? Henzi: Probably. Petitioner: That’s a copy from – Henzi: We’ll incorporate it into the record so it will be in the file for next time. _______________________________________________________________ There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at 8:30 p.m. __________________________ SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary __________________________ MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman /hm