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Home My WebLink About12-13-11 City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 39 December 13, 2011 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING HELD DECEMBER 13, 2011 A Regular Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, December 13, 2011. MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Henzi, Chairman Craig Pastor, Vice Chairman Toni Aloe Sam Caramagno Ed Duggan MEMBERS ABSENT: Robert Sills Betsy McCue OTHERS PRESENT: Michael Fisher, Assistant City Attorney Dennis DeMeyer, City Inspector Helen Mininni, Court Reporter The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. Chairman Henzi then explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each Petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight’s minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: to deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each Petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Five (5) members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each Petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, Petitioners and City Departments. There were 9 persons present in the audience. ______________________________________________________________________ (7: #1/100) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-12-53: Frederick and Lisa Binder, 18981 Laurel, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to maintain an addition, constructed without permit(s), onto an City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 39 December 13, 2011 existing, detached garage, which was previously granted a variance by the Zoning Board of Appeals, resulting in excess garage area. Garage Area Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Existing/Proposed: 1,332 sq. ft. Excess: 612 sq. ft. The property is located on the west side of Laurel (18981) between Curtis and Seven Mile Road. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add to this case? DeMeyer: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Will the Petitioners please come to the table? Petitioner: Good evening. Henzi: Can you introduce yourselves, please? Petitioner: Frederick Binder. Mrs. Binder: Lisa Binder. Henzi: What’s your address? Petitioner: 18981 Laurel, Livonia, Michigan 48152. Henzi: Can you tell us how we got to this point where a garage addition was constructed without pulling permits? Petitioner: Yeah, after I constructed the original garage the inspector said, you know you can go ahead and pour a slab behind your garage. You know, I got a boat and he said you can put your boat on your slab. That was years ago. I got around to pouring the slab and I thought I’d build a lean to over the top of it which I found out I need a variance for that, I didn’t know that at the time and when the guy who did my original addition or conversion of the garage he was over and we were talking about it and I was complaining my snow mobiles got eaten up by squirrels again. And he goes you should just close this thing in, you know, and at first I wasn’t going to do that and I ended up doing something that I should have pulled permits for and kind of got – I guess my motions somewhat got a hold of me when I looked at my sleds again. I tried to include some pictures I don’t know if they’re very visible of what – I’ve got five black walnut trees and squirrels and red squirrels and nests in my lawn equipment and my snowmobiles and I thought I would button it up, you know, I know what I did is wrong and I apologize, you know, it’s been bugging me. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 39 December 13, 2011 Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, how did this come to the attention of the Inspection Department? DeMeyer: Through a complaint from one of the neighbors. So, we followed up on the complaints. Henzi: When did you construct the garage and when did you construct the addition? Petitioner: The garage was constructed - oh, four years ago and the addition was like three months ago. It started off with a slab of cement and then after that the rest went up. I have – I do have something – I don’t know, a couple of my neighbors came over personally and gave me their signature on their, you know, what they got in the mail from the Zoning Board personally. I have those and then I also spoke with another 12 neighbors who, you know, said they didn’t have a problem and they were willing to sign a document which these are like 12 or 15 neighbors none of which told me no. I don’t know which one may have called. There’s one guy that asked me to come back he was eating dinner with his family maybe he was the one but, two neighbors behind me, the two on the sides, across the street. I talked to like 15 of them, none of them – I don’t know, you know, if that would help at all, you know, instead of mailing them in they walked them over. Caramagno: Send them down. Petitioner: Those are the three that they walked over and that was something I thought – when I showed them what was going on and what the paperwork they might have received in the mail was regarding. Henzi: Any other questions for the Petitioners? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I stopped by this evening and talked to you for quite a while. Why did you need this extra 400 sq. ft? I mean, when you came before us the first time which going through the notes, you already were in excess of 216 sq. ft. now, you’re in excess of 612 sq. ft. I understand you have a lot of stuff. I saw a lot of it, but help me out here. What do we need a 1,332 sq. foot garage for? Petitioner: I included a diagram to help explain that. It’s 18 x 22 and I wrote what would be in there, you know, I drew what would be in there and when I built the first garage although its large it has two garage doors and, you know, it’s not like length wise with three and the side of my house length wise is – the length side of the garage right up kind of close to my house for the door, you know, it would be hard to pull in and out anything that way and I thought, you know, I’ve had a couple operations two knees, two hernias, a foot now seven weeks ago and I thought it would be nice just to be able to back my sleds in. They have studs on the tracks they’re ruining my cement. My wife and I – it’s me and four girls, it’s getting harder to move these things and I thought it would be nice just to, you know, back them in and have something to keep the animals City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 39 December 13, 2011 from ruining them. So next time we go it’s not another time we can’t go because something is chewed up or it’s got, you know, be fixed again. They did it again this year chewed it all up. So this just would make it easier for me to – as I’m getting to the point where unloading and loading is just, you know, it’s hard to do and my stuff is getting ruined. Pastor: I don’t remember you don’t have a shed on your property, do you? Petitioner: I do have a small plastic one. I understood was supposed to be all right since it’s not like, like a, I don’t know -- Mrs. Binder: Barn. Petitioner: A barn or like a permanent type shed. Pastor: I don’t remember seeing that, but normally we asked you to remove an existing shed last time. Petitioner: I had a barn shed I did remove. I had a barn shed and that plastic one. I did remove the barn shed. Pastor: What do you have in the plastic shed? Petitioner: My riding lawn mower, two snow blowers, tiki torches, and – Pastor: Well that’s what you’re telling us you need the addition for. Petitioner: Right. Pastor: So, if we so incline to allow you to have this additional addition on the garage, would you be willing to remove that shed? Petitioner: Yeah. Pastor: That will be all for right now. Thank you. Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: I’m sorry if you answered this, but what was your exact reason for not getting a permit other than the builder kind of gave you the idea – what was the exact reason for not getting the permit? Petitioner: For not getting the permit? I was trying to hurry up before winter came and when we were doing this cement slab and the lean to and I seen the snow mobile, he said, Rick you should just close this in and I kind of went with something I, you know, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 39 December 13, 2011 obviously should have pulled some permits for and went about it the correct way and that’s why. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Who was the builder? Petitioner: His name is Ron Caukins. He did, he did our –he converted our garage into a full master bedroom, a full bathroom and walk-in closet. He did all the work and all his work was passed by the City of Livonia, you know, for electrical, you know, the construction and the heating and cooling. Pastor: So, you pulled a permit for your bedroom? Petitioner: Yeah. Pastor: I’m a little confused. Why would he suggest not pulling a permit? Petitioner: No, he didn’t suggest not pulling a permit. He said you should just close this thing in. That’s what he suggested and I was in a hurry. I was getting a foot operation and like I said – then I walked out looked at my snow mobiles and I made spur of the moment decision that wasn’t the right thing to do. Pastor: That will be all for now. Henzi: Close this thing in? You had a lean to, not a frame. Petitioner: I was going to go with the lean to, yeah. I was going to go with the lean to that’s what he was looking out to construct. Henzi: I understand, Mr. Binder, but he didn’t just enclose an existing structure he built an additional structure and you’re telling us that he said you should – all he said was you should close this in. Petitioner: He said, yeah, he said if you put a lean to up he said you should close this thing in that way you won’t have any animal problems any more. And I was, you know, because he seen me hooting and hollering about my snow mobiles and – Henzi: Your original shed was 8 x 10, right? Petitioner: There were two. Originally, it was – yeah, I guess maybe it was 8 x 10. Henzi: Well, you answered that you had one and it was 8 x 10. Petitioner: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 39 December 13, 2011 Henzi: And our condition was to remove all sheds plural and you didn’t; correct? Petitioner: Correct, well, yeah, the building inspector passed, you know, the garage and everything I thought – I just thought from what I heard that the little plastic ones were not considered like a structure of, you know -- Mrs. Binder: Building. Petitioner: -- building or something and that’s why I didn’t ask for that to be removed. Henzi: This isn’t a building or a structure? Petitioner: No, the plastic shed. Henzi: I can’t get over the fact that you would pull a permit for, you know, three-fourths of the garage, but you don’t pull the permit for the addition. The only explanation I can think of is you knew you weren’t allowed to have it and you tried to sneak your way into getting it. Explain to me why – what the real reason was if that’s not it. Petitioner: No, the real reason was I put the cement slab down and I ended up with something a lot more than I ever intended on even start off building. Henzi: Did you have the same builder for the garage? Petitioner: No, they were two different builders. Henzi: Why did you use two different builders? Petitioner: The last guy stiffed me. Took off three-quarters of the way through the job and I had to hire somebody else. And Ron the gentleman he’s out of work and he does some work for my parents, you know, they have some rental houses. And I asked him what he thought, you know, when he came over about the lean to and that’s how it all kind of came about. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Dennis, if he had put a lean to or a shed roof over top of that slab wouldn’t he still have had to get a permit? DeMeyer: That’s correct. Pastor: And we also include that as square footage? DeMeyer: That’s correct, the lot coverage and such. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 39 December 13, 2011 Pastor: Thank you. Oh, one more. Dennis, lot coverage, is he over on his lot coverage? I never saw anything about that. It doesn’t appear so because he’s got a good size lot. DeMeyer: Allowable is 15 percent and he’s proposed lot coverage is 13.7 percent. Pastor: Okay, thank you. Henzi: Do you still store the trailer in your backyard? Petitioner: Yeah, it’s there right now. Henzi: I’m just looking at the minutes from the last meeting and everything that you ask for tonight that’s what you asked for the first time for why you wanted a garage. So, why should we allow you to keep the addition? Petitioner: No. Well, hindsight didn’t really – the stuff, well, it just didn’t seem to fit – I had it so packed in there it was – trying to move everything all the place it, you know, it’s so close you either going - you got to move everything out, scratch something, scratch a car, you know, break your back, you know, trying to get everything in and out of there. Yeah, I got it all to fit and it looked great when I did it and I got it all under one roof, but trying to maneuver some of these heavy things is, you know, kind of getting a little tough. Henzi: So, you wish you asked for a bigger garage to begin with? Petitioner: Well now I guess I do, yeah, yeah. Henzi: Okay. Anything else for the Petitioners? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: A couple things that I’ve got. I see two boats in the front yard. How come neither one of them are in the existing garage? Why do you have boats in the front yard? Petitioner: Well -- Mrs. Binder: The drywall. Petitioner: Yeah, we -- Caramagno: I didn’t hear you. Mrs. Binder: We were going to drywall. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 39 December 13, 2011 Petitioner: Right now the garage has drywall, a lot of drywall in it – Caramagno: All right. Petitioner: -- to drywall the whole thing. That’s why. I could of put it in like this thing I built but I didn’t feel like I should be trying to use it for anything until we came to the, you know, the Board meeting. Caramagno: So when I looked at your pictures here, did I see boats pulling in this garage? I don’t recall seeing boats. Petitioner: Yeah. Caramagno: Did I? Am I missing something? Petitioner: I’ve got in the addition part of it I do. I have everything in the addition like – let’s see here. Caramagno: Where’s the second boat at. Petitioner: The second boat, well, my mom said I could bring that up and leave it at her place up north. She’s got a place up north. Caramagno: So you plan on getting rid that. You plan on getting that out of the yard. Petitioner: Yeah, I’m either going to sell it or bring it up to my mom’s place. Caramagno: I think you had a camper last time out in the yard; right? Petitioner: Yeah. Caramagno: Okay, have you thought of any concrete or asphalt going back to your other garage, the other door or are you going to drive over the lawn to get back there? Petitioner: No. Caramagno: What’s that? Petitioner: No, I haven’t thought about that. I, you know, the grass looks beautiful the way, you know, it just looks – gosh, I guess you can’t see it. It just really looks nice the way it is, you know, with the grass there and the curb side appeal and the whole neighborhood. The ground I know is really hard. It’s sand and when I drive on it, it doesn’t smooch down or make mud holes or anything like that over there. Caramagno: It seems you drive on it more in the future now than you have ever driven on it in the past to me. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 39 December 13, 2011 Petitioner: Well, I would for yeah, for the snow mobile and I have a quad that I can also pull things around it’s not as light weight, you know, I use that for moving stuff around, too. That’s more maneuverable than driving, you know, the big truck in there. Caramagno: Okay. That’s all I’ve got for right now. Henzi: Any other questions for the Petitioner? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so, come on up to the table. I see no one coming forward. Can you read the letters, please? Caramagno: I approve of the variance for the Binder’s at 18981 Laurel Drive. That’s from Jackie Collins at 18945 Laurel. Kerry Fannon [19048 Laurel Drive] writes an approval (letter read). Objection from Jerome Allen [18854 Gary Lane](letter read). An objection from Rose Carpenter [18974 Gary Lane] (letter read). Sharon Gary [19016 Gary Lane] approval (letter read). Antonio Farrell [18886 Gary Lane] sends an approval. Approval from the owners at 18965 Gary Lane, 18997 Gary Lane, 18871 Gary Lane, 18845 Gary Lane, 18822 Gary Lane. And all these are on Laurel 18728, 18982, 19026, 19048, 18790, 18948, and 18886 Gary Lane. Henzi: Okay. Anything you would like to say in closing, Mr. Binder? Petitioner: I don’t think that I have anything not that I wanted to share about this. No, that’s it. Aloe: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Can I just ask the Petitioner, I don’t remember what goes across the back of your lot? What type of fencing do you have back there? Petitioner: There’s a privacy fence across the entire back side of the lot. Aloe: Okay. Petitioner: And then the side of the garage the lot is up against – there’s like 12 ft. of just wild growth and like 60, 80 ft. pine trees. You can’t even see the neighbors in the summertime anyway that’s how thick it is. I spoke to him and he said, Rick, he told me, he said you did a nice job. It looks good and he’s the neighbor the lot line itself against. He said, I don’t have a problem with it. So, then Jack was the neighbor on my other side and the two neighbors behind me they – directly behind me where the privacy fence is – I don’t know they didn’t have – nobody that I talked to had a problem with it except for the one gentleman he said he was eating dinner and he asked me to come back, you know, maybe another time. I don’t know if that was Jerome or who that might have been. Aloe: Okay, thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 39 December 13, 2011 Petitioner: Uh-huh. Henzi: Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I don’t think the Board ever likes to see anyone come in and already have done something especially when they’ve already been here before and they know the permit process. However, setting that aside and that’s another thing that will have to be dealt with as far as the permits. It is a large building. I think in your favor is that you’re not in excess of lot coverage and you have neighbor support. The other thing is I would hate to see you storing this stuff outside or an accessory which you absolutely cannot have another building on that property. So, based on that I could somewhat be in support. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Well, there’s no doubt that you totally went about this the wrong way. I would imagine it’s got to be somewhat embarrassing to even bring this to us because not following the protocol but you’ve already been through it and know is just an obvious attempt to circumvent the system and that’s not cool. I would have to think that if you came in asking for this explaining that yeah, you know, I needed a variance and you gave it to me but I found that it wasn’t enough I needed more. I’d rather listen to it that way than hear what you had to say tonight. Okay? That’s just the way – that would have been the right thing to do. And had I heard that that hey, listen the garage I came in with wasn’t big enough and I need a little more. I can see that. I can see that you obviously need more. You’ve got a lot of things. You’re in a rural setting there and a big lot. So, I have to think about this. I was troubled by your thought process there obviously, but I also as Toni says see the need for the storage. I don’t like to go down there and see a big garage and boats sitting out in front of the house, snowmobiles sitting in the backyard. I don’t care for that. I’ve got a lot of things myself, but I don’t care for leaving them outside like that. So, I can see the need for the garage. I would without a doubt with my approval suggest that the shed goes and goes for good this time not I thought this or I thought that. The shed is gone in my opinion. And then something has to be done with these permits for the garage to even make sure it was built properly. So, that’s my opinion at this point. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Well, I like Mr. Caramagno is very upset about this. I think I told you this evening that I wasn’t very happy about this although you did a very nice job. I will say that. I struggle with making you tear it down only because you did such a nice job and you do have neighbor support, but I have a hard time allowing this because you knew you shouldn’t have had it. And if you had come back to us, I don’t know if I would have given you as much square footage as you got. So, I’m struggling with this, but I would not be in support of this if you had a shed. That shed has to go. I don’t care if you want to put a bird house on your property, no. I’m almost thought about suggesting that you put a hard surface back to the second door, but walking around there I didn’t feel any softness in your grass. I’m almost to the point where I suggest a tabling resolution just City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 39 December 13, 2011 so the other Commissioners can hear this, but I’ll listen to what everybody else has to say and I possibly could support this but I definitely would want maybe double or even triple the fines of the building permit just to curtail this in the future. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: I’m looking at the conditions you had in the original motion and I think you didn’t follow them at all. I think half of them you didn’t follow at all including the shed and pulling permits and adding additional buildings to the property, but you do have neighbor support. It looks good. You obviously needed, you know, I’ll be in support but you’re going to have to follow all the conditions that were on here the first time that you didn’t this time, but at least you got the neighbor support you needed so I will be in support. Henzi: I don’t know if I can support this maybe there is a consensus to do it. You know we charge double permit fees when people don’t pull a permit before they start. Here we’ve got a situation where somebody put something up. I don’t know if double is fair. You’ve really put us in a pickle because nobody wants to make you tear this down, but you totally circumvented the process and your actions – if we approve it, it says to everybody in the city put it up as quick as you can and then come in and beg for mercy and you’ll win. That’s not right. You were – I’ve read the minutes over and over. Your plan was praised by every board member. 936 sq, ft. for a huge lot, but what you have now is not in excess of 216, but in excess of 612. No way would this Board have given you a 1,300 sq. ft. garage. No way. We would have been compromised, but now we don’t have that luxury so I would vote to deny. The floor is open for a motion. Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Upon Motion by Duggan, supported by Aloe, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-12-53: Frederick and Lisa Binder, 18981 Laurel, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to maintain an addition, constructed without permit(s), onto an existing, detached garage, which was previously granted a variance by the Zoning Board of Appeals, resulting in excess garage area. Garage Area Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Existing/Proposed: 1,332 sq. ft. Excess: 612 sq. ft. The property is located on the west side of Laurel (18981) between Curtis and Seven Mile Road, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met due to the ¾ of an acre and the need for additional space for storage. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 39 December 13, 2011 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because Petitioner would lose the space needed to store many of his belongings. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because the Petitioner does have support from a large majority of his neighbors. 4. The Board received three (3) letters of approval and two (2) letters of objection. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low-density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the existing shed be removed. 2. That Petitioner will pull the proper permits and pass final inspection. 3. That electrical service shall not exceed 110 volts. 4. That there will be no additional buildings of any kind allowed on the property with the exception of the existing dog house. 5. That Petitioner will abide by the existing conditions from the 2007 variance. 6. That the Petitioner will pay triple building permit fees. 7. That there will be no outside storage of any kind including vehicles. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Duggan, Aloe, Pastor, Caramagno NAYS: Henzi ABSENT: Sills, McCue Henzi: The variance is granted with, I count six conditions. You’ve got to pull building permits, still limited to 110 volt service, no additional out buildings with the exception of the dog house, all prior conditions from the 2007 variance are incorporated into this one, no outside storage of items and then you’re going to have to pay triple the building permit fees when you pull the building permits. Good luck. Petitioner: Thank you. I apologize. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 39 December 13, 2011 ______________________________________________________________________ (7:35 #1/1216) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-12-54: Northbrook Plaza, 35296 Banbury Court, Livonia, MI 48152, on behalf of Lessee The Wireless Center, 37304 Six Mile Road, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a wall sign resulting in excess wall sign area. Wall Sign Area Allowed: 20 sq. ft. Proposed: 37 sq. ft. Excess: 17 sq. ft. The property is located on the north side of Six Mile Road (37304) between Newburg and Fitzgerald. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add? DeMeyer: The Department has nothing to add at this time Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Is there anybody here on this one? Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: Okay. Come on up to the table. Good evening. Petitioner: Hi. Henzi: Can you tell us your name and address? Petitioner: Paul Weinstock, 14500 Schoolcraft, Detroit. I’m here representing the Wireless Center, Verizon Store. The reason we’re seeking the variance for a larger sign is Verizon has strict corporate codes as far as using the check mark in their logo for signage and you can’t deviate, you can’t deviate the size of the check mark. It has to be in certain relationship to the size of the lettering for the Verizon and if you look at the check mark and the way they calculate square footage, there’s a lot of dead space around the check mark that eats up all the square footage. And being that he’s only going to be allowed a 20 sq. ft. sign using the check mark our lettering would be about 6 or 7 inches on the Verizon which wouldn’t make it visible. Verizon won’t let them going without the check mark so, therefore, we’re seeking a variance for a larger sign so we can incorporate the check mark into their corporate logo. Henzi: Are the check marks prefabricated or it’s just that you’re only allowed to have it a certain size? Petitioner: Whatever – certain proportion to the size of the Verizon letters. We can’t make the check mark half that size. It has to be in a certain proportion to the Verizon letters. So if the check mark gets smaller, the Verizon letters have to get smaller also. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 39 December 13, 2011 We can’t just make the check marks smaller and squeeze it in somewhere to calculate the 20 sq. ft. without compromising the size of the Verizon letters. Henzi: Any questions? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: You have a temporary sign hanging on there. What’s wrong with that size? Petitioner: That’s just a banner right now. That -- Pastor: I understand what it is. Petitioner: Okay. Pastor: What’s wrong with the size of those letters? Petitioner: I mean -- Pastor: I mean it’s good enough to be temporary. Petitioner: It’s good enough up there to be temporary, but Verizon is putting a lot of money into the stores and they really try to emphasize on their signage and being that the check mark doesn’t really say anything it’s just a corporate logo like a Nike swoosh, they’re trying to get the recognization that the check mark where people will realize that it’s Verizon. Just like McDonald’s just has an “M” now without even saying McDonald’s because people realize it. That’s what they’re going for so they don’t want to sacrifice the check mark, but then again they still want the name so it is visible and seen from the road. Pastor: The check mark on that temporary sign, too. Petitioner: Yeah, yeah, but it’s really – I mean you can see it now because it’s a banner and it’s on a white background. It’s just kind of there. I’m not saying you can’t see it, but -- Pastor: My point is, is why do you need 13 inch tall letters that expand – well, it says 116 inches because your lettering is 116. You have 13 inch Verizon letters and then you’ve got another 5 point – 5 ½ inches for the -- Petitioner: For the tag line. Pastor: -- right, for the tag line. I mean, you’ve got to help me here. I cannot approve something that’s almost 100 percent more than we allow. So, there’s got to be some give and take here somewhere. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 39 December 13, 2011 Petitioner: Well, I mean, the way that they calculate it in Livonia is they just draw a rectangle around the left right, up down. A lot of communities will just rectangle each shape and they will give you up to so many shapes so they don’t count all the dead space around it because if you look at this, there’s a lot of dead space in the actual logo. If you calculated the actual lettering part of it, I mean we’ve done these variances in other communities based on the same reasoning with the check mark. The check mark is an inch and a half thick total. That whole check mark might calculate 2 sq. ft, 3 sq. ft. total if you don’t box it in. So, that’s kind of the – that’s their hardship that we’re going at is it really doesn’t say anything and if the Verizon would let them use just the lettering without the check mark, they would just have a larger Verizon letters and not use the check mark, but corporate says they have to use it. So, that’s really a small channel letter. We have to use channel letters in this plaza. We can’t put a box sign up to try and manufacture channel letters for wireless that would be – the wireless centers would be 2 or 3 inches tall at that point and it would be almost impossible to even manufacture in a channel letter. Whereas the banner that’s up there now it’s just a vinyl print on a banner as a temporary sign just to, you know, give them some direction. Pastor: I understand that, but that temporary sign is about a third of what this is. Petitioner: The temporary sign is 20 sq. ft. That’s probably what’s legal. That’s about the size that would be allowed based on the code which is almost impossible to manufacture in a channel letter sign because it’s so small. I mean, it doesn’t look out of proportion to the signs in the, you know, the neighboring signs as far as the height of it. Pastor: Well, this is substantially larger than – other than the one right next door. I don’t remember what that store is, but the other stores in the plaza the signs aren’t this big. Are you saying that this is smaller than the other signs? Petitioner: I didn’t measure all the other signs in the plaza. I mean, I drove through the plaza, I looked at them, and it didn’t look like it would be out of proportion to the plaza like it was running from end to end of the store front. I mean, I don’t think it’s taking up even 75 percent of the store front. Pastor: Well, it does run almost end to end to the store front if you include the check. Petitioner: We got 170 plus 240, yeah, it’s about 75 percent of the front. Pastor: Dennis, when they do the calculations, is he correct they box out that check or they box out all the letters, or they do actually take the square footage of the letters themselves since this is a channel letter sign? DeMeyer: They boxed – they gave them in two boxes so they gave some – a little bit of extra on this one. They boxed out the check mark and they boxed the letters, the letters came out with 29 sq. ft. and then the check mark came out with 8.3 sq. ft. so it averages out to about 37 sq. ft. I can pass this around if you would like to see how it was done. Henzi: Yes. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 39 December 13, 2011 Pastor: Thank you. That will be all for now. Henzi: Any other questions? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Sir, are you expecting to put in any window signage in this building? Petitioner: There are no window signs other than just the hours in the door posted. Caramagno: There’s not any now. Petitioner: No, there are not going to be any window signs in there. Caramagno: Not in the future, nothing planned? Petitioner: No, just the door hours or if they maybe have a Christmas special they might put a, you know, like a cardboard sign hanging in the window for a special. They’re not putting any kind permanent lettering in the windows. No neon, no lettering in the windows, nothing of the sort. Caramagno: Is there any plans in the future to get on that monument sign in the front corner there. Petitioner: They would love to be on the monument sign if it was available, but at this point the landlord said it was not available for them Caramagno: I would think if you put this big sign they would probably block you out of that monument sign any how. Petitioner: Yeah, well he asked for it when he signed the lease and I guess there are only so many spaces on it and they said at this time he did not have it in his lease where he can be on the monument sign. But the landlord totally supported our variance. He did not have any problems with them putting a larger sign on the building. Caramagno: Is there any other sign package that Verizon – is there a size that’s just under this? Petitioner: Well, we can manufacture them to fit pretty much any building, but the only other option is to put the check mark above the word Verizon and that would still maintain the same square footage that we’re at. Caramagno: Yeah, that wouldn’t look as good any how. Petitioner: And it wouldn’t look as good; correct. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 39 December 13, 2011 Caramagno: Okay, that’s all I got. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I don’t know think he quite answered Sam’s question. He was asking can you make the lettering smaller to downsize the sign enough to help us with the overage. Instead of using 13 inch tall letters, can you use 11 inch tall letters, 10 inch tall letters? Petitioner: Yeah, I can drop it down a little bit. Everything in proportion if we drop the Verizon down from a 13 to like an 11 like a couple inches down, that would drop the check mark down to about 22, you know, it would probably save us about 7 sq. ft. We can probably get it to 30. Pastor: Thank you Petitioner: If that would, you know, be a compromise. But anything smaller than that the wireless would pretty much be – it wouldn’t be seen and now your tag line is going down from a 5 inch letter down to about a 3 ½ inch letter so the lettering on the tag line is going to be about a 2 inch letter which might make it hard to see. But just something that has to be up there for Verizon’s standards I mean it really doesn’t mean a lot but the cellular, you know, the name of it people see Verizon and I think that’s what their main goal is. That’s just something they have to corporately put up there is the name of their center and authorized dealer. But that also goes in proportion with the Verizon. Henzi: Any other comments or questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up. I see no one coming forward. Can you read the letters? Caramagno: I don’t have any. Henzi: Mr. Weinstock, anything you’d like to say in closing? Petitioner: No. Henzi: Okay, thank you. I will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I think what you have is a nice package. The fact that you’re willing to reduce it by a little bit to what you said would fit better for me and you’ve also said that you don’t have access to that corner monument sign as well so at this point I would be looking for an approval out of me for what you have suggested. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I appreciate him allowing or downsizing the letters to an 11 inches, but I am a little concerned about the monument sign. We’ve heard that story before and then all of City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 39 December 13, 2011 a sudden someone pops up on the monument sign. So, I guess my concern is and maybe I shouldn’t have the concern, but I do know there was a space or two available on that monument sign. So, I’m a little concerned that we allow an overage then all of a sudden the monument sign gets another sign on it so I’m not sure how to -- Petitioner: Excuse me, the monument sign if they got a space on it, it wouldn’t make the monument sign any larger if the landlord allowed them space at a further date. It’s not like we would be adding to the monument sign. If they have a tenant that leaves and there’s a space available, they may give him that space. I don’t want to deny him of that space if it comes available. It’s not like we’re making the monument sign any larger than it already is. Pastor: I guess I will break a little protocol, but that means you’ll have more square footage of signage above and beyond what we’re approving. Petitioner: Okay. Pastor: And that’s what my concern is. Petitioner: Okay. Pastor: So with him saying that, I’m even more concerned about the monument sign so I’m not sure how I’m going – I’m going to sit back and listen to other people. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: I would go with dropping it down to 11 inches on the Verizon to get it down to the 30 sq. ft. Another thing depending how the Board feels about this because we are giving you excess signage on the front there is that in the windows - any signs that you have in the windows and as you said just the hours. I don’t know if you want to limit that if that’s too much or just take a look at that. But I’ll also say the monument sign I don’t know if it, you know, if it has room, you know, I don’t know, I think it’d be okay, but I don’t know how the rest of the Board feels about that, but I’d like to hear their comments on it. But the Verizon is more of less down to the 11 inches would be mine preference. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: Well, I will be in support. I don’t think what the Petitioner is asking for especially going from a 13 inch letter to 11 and going from 37 sq. ft. to 30, I think that’s very favorable. I think it’s set back, it’s on Six Mile, you have a shopping center next door with I don’t know how much vacancy in it and I think being visible and being able to advertise to the public I see absolutely no reason not to grant the variance. Henzi: I think I was convinced when he offered to reduce. I thought the original argument was a decent one is that we’ve got a logo that is counted for more square footage than what it really is. The problem is though that the lettering was already at 29 sq. ft. so reduced to 30 sq. ft. is fine by me. I think Mr. Pastor makes a good point about the monument sign; however for me, this is just my opinion only I think that when the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 39 December 13, 2011 original sign package or when the site plan was approved I mean the thought was that it was going to be a full center with signage on it on everything. Petitioner: Right. Henzi: I’m willing to give the 30 sq. ft. knowing that Verizon gets a little bit more based on the fact that it’s not that much different than the next door neighbor and because of the setback so I’d approve with that condition. Petitioner: Still being able to use the monument at a further date if it’s available. Henzi: I would but I’m just one member. So, the floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Aloe, supported by Caramagno, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-12-54: Northbrook Plaza, 35296 Banbury Court, Livonia, MI 48152, on behalf of Lessee The Wireless Center, 37304 Six Mile Road, Livonia, MI 48152, seeking to erect a wall sign resulting in excess wall sign area. Wall Sign Area Allowed: 20 sq. ft. Proposed: 37 sq. ft. Excess: 17 sq. ft. As amended by the Board, with the consent of Petitioner: Wall Sign Area Allowed: 20 sq. ft. Proposed: 30 sq. ft. Excess: 10 sq. ft. The property is located on the north side of Six Mile Road (37304) between Newburg and Fitzgerald, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of the location of this building and the setback. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because the Petitioner is looking for visibility to promote his business. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because it is consistent with signage in that area. 4. The Board received three (3) letters of approval and two (2) letters of objection. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 39 December 13, 2011 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is “General Commercial” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the sign be erected according to the drawings that were presented to the Board with a condition that the size of the lettering will be reduced so the total square footage of the signage goes from 37 sq. ft. to 30 sq. ft. 2. That there will be no additional signage on the store front, including windows. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Aloe, Caramagno, Duggan, Henzi NAYS: Pastor ABSENT: Sills, McCue Henzi: The variance is granted with those two conditions. Good luck. Petitioner: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 39 December 13, 2011 ______________________________________________________________________________ (8:00 #1/1796) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-12-55: Timothy and Susan Sleeman, 14654 Stonehouse, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct an addition onto the rear of an existing dwelling resulting in excess lot coverage. Lot Coverage Allowed: 25.0% (1,800 sq. ft.) Proposed 27.7% (1,997 sq. ft.) Excess: 2.7% ( 197 sq. ft.) The property is located on the east side of Stonehouse (14654) between Lyndon and Jamison. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add to this case? DeMeyer: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Hearing none, good evening. Petitioner: Good evening, how are you tonight? Henzi: Good, thanks. Can you tell us your names and address, please? Petitioner: Susan Sleeman, 14654 Stonehouse, Livonia, 48154. Timothy Sleeman, 14654 Stonehouse, Livonia, Michigan 48154. Henzi: Can you tell us why you want to construct the addition? Petitioner: My mom is in her late 80’s and my brother who is older than myself has been her caregiver and now his health has gone bad and, in fact, he is having surgery very, very soon. He takes care of her and helps her with everything. She has a hard time getting around. She usually is using a wheelchair or a walker. She sleeps in a hospital bed. She’s got a lot of different exercise things. She does have two days a week in home physical therapy and all these things and my brother can’t take care of her any more so my brother and I and my husband decided that, you know, putting her in a home just was not – just not an option at this point in time. So we decided we wanted to try and add to our home and allow her a space where she could still have everything she needs and continue a relatively good quality of life before she – get the idea. Henzi: Okay. Can you tell us about the building materials that your builder proposes to use, you know, or is it going to be siding to match the house that sort of thing. You did contract with a builder; didn’t you? Mr. Sleeman: Yes. Petitioner: Yes, is name is Ronnie Baratz. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 39 December 13, 2011 Mr. Sleeman: Baratz, Baratz Construction. Petitioner: He made some plans. We laid out an additional entry. I actually am disabled so, you know, trying to push her through the house with wheelchair on one of her bad days is really a difficult task for me so with having an additional back door in the room that we would be adding on which is accessible through the yard, to the side of house is a yard. So that way she has in addition to going through the house as an example with my husband I can get her in and out in the event of needing to – plus she can walk outside then and sit on the patio and get some fresh air things like that. Henzi: Any questions for the Petitioners? Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I see this addition that you are proposing is about 21 ½ ft. wide, how far is it projecting out? I cannot find any place on any of these drawings. Mr. Sleeman: 15 ft. Pastor: 15 ft. I also notice this is a monstrous room you don’t have a bathroom or anything in it? Mr. Sleeman: The bathroom is right next door. The rooms that we’re going to make that a big room, they’re very two small, small bedrooms now and the room is like right out the door that’s why we didn’t put a bathroom in there. It’s just right there. Pastor: This house is a brick house, is it not? Mr. Sleeman: Yes, it is. Pastor: And you’re putting siding on the back? Mr. Sleeman: It’s partially sided in the back already – it’s half siding, half brick. Pastor: Half brick. Mr. Sleeman: Yeah. Pastor: Would you be willing to follow that motif and go half brick? Mr. Sleeman: The cost would be quite extensive from what we understand. Petitioner: We talked to a couple of people and they said that, you know, matching brick on an older home is always an issue. And of course, if it was a matter of that we could just literally call up an appropriate brick layer whatever and they could match it up easily City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 39 December 13, 2011 it wouldn’t – I mean it would be much more expensive, but with the issue of trying to match the brick appropriately it went sky high. Pastor: Okay, thank you. Mr. Sleeman: You’re welcome. Henzi: Any other questions? Hearing none, is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up. I see no one coming forward. Can you read the letters on this one? Caramagno: We have an approval Edwin Glasson [14669 Stonehouse] (letter read). Alexander Johnston [14630 Stonehouse] no objection (letter read). Mary Knittel [14681 Stonehouse] approval. Thomas Korniski [14717 Stonehouse] sends an approval. Peter Smith [14657 Stonehouse] approval (letter read). Loraine Smykla [14714 Stonehouse] sends an approval. George and Nancy Weiss [14702 Blue Skies] approval (letter read). Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I’m sorry, I have one more question. This shed, is this shed existing now? Mr. Sleeman: Yes. Pastor: I did not notice it. Okay. So, you’re not asking for a shed as an addition as well. Okay, thank you. Petitioner: You’re welcome. Henzi: Is there anything you would like to say in closing, Mr. or Mrs. Sleeman? Mr. Sleeman: No, that’s pretty much it. We’re just trying to do what we can for our parents. That’s the way we were brought up. Henzi: Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Pastor. Pastor: This is a small excess on this piece of property. It’s not a large lot, but it’s not – I don’t think a 2.7 percent overage is that onerous on this piece of property. I understand that their trying to take care of their mother and it sounds like possibly even their brother in the future so I think I will be in support of this. Henzi: Mr. Duggan: Duggan: I, too, will be in support. You obviously need the excess space and the lot coverage will only be 2.7 percent in excess so that minimal for the space you need so I will be in support. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 39 December 13, 2011 Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I also will be in support. I think the Petitioner has presented a hardship and 2.7 is a very small excess so I will be in support. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Yes, you have demonstrated a need to me as well. It’s a small variance as you have heard and you have strong support with 10 letters or so from the neighbors and there are many other additions in this neighborhood as I looked around today so I will support. Henzi: I will, too, I don’t think that the request is merely designed for financial return. I think that the Petitioners have proposed to reconfigure their house, but not with the design to earn more money, it’s specific to family concerns. So, I will approve. The floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Caramagno, supported by Pastor, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-12-55: Timothy and Susan Sleeman, 14654 Stonehouse, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct an addition onto the rear of an existing dwelling resulting in excess lot coverage. Lot Coverage Allowed: 25.0% (1,800 sq. ft.) Proposed 27.7% (1,997 sq. ft.) Excess: 2.7% ( 197 sq. ft.) The property is located on the east side of Stonehouse (14654) between Lyndon and Jamison, be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because the Petitioners have elderly family members who need to be taken care of and do not have the required space. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because they would not be able to care for their family members and have to resort to other measures. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because it is a small variance of 2.7% and there are many other additions in the neighborhood that are similar. 4. The Board received seven (7) letters of approval and no letters of objection. 5. The granting of this variance will not adversely affect the purpose or objective of the Master Plan because this property is classified “Low-density Residential” under the Master Plan, and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 39 December 13, 2011 FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That the addition be built as presented to the Board. 2. That the addition be completely enclosed within six (6) months following commencement of construction. 3. That the variance is good for one (1) year. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Caramagno, Pastor, Aloe, Duggan, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: Sills, McCue Henzi: The variance is granted with those three conditions. You have to build it as you presented per the plans to the Board. It’s good for one year which means it does not expire within one year, you’ve got one year within which to complete the construction and then once you start construction you have to enclose it within six months. Petitioner: Thank you. Henzi: Good luck to you. Mr. Sleeman: Thank you very much, we appreciate it. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 39 December 13, 2011 (8:08 #1/2126) APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-12-56: Dennis Twichell, 11036 Berwick, Livonia, MI 48150 seeking to erect a privacy fence, adjacent to a chain-link fence, which double fencing is not allowed, and also not obtaining approval from the adjacent property owners, which is a requirement. The property is located on the east side of Berwick (11036) between Elmira and Orangelawn. Henzi: Mr. DeMeyer, anything to add? DeMeyer: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Duggan: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: Or for anyone on the Board. In general, I know one of his concerns is that the bushes pushing against his fence could push the fence over; does that happen like neighboring bushes pushing up against the fence could that push the fence over? DeMeyer: Not to my knowledge. Duggan: Thank you. Henzi: Anything else? Okay. Will the Petitioner please come forward? Good evening. Petitioner: Good evening. My name is Dennis Twichell, 11036 Berwick, Livonia, Michigan 48150. Henzi: Can you tell us why you want to have the fence as you presented. Petitioner: Well, what we have and I have pictures here to show that her bushes are actually growing through the chain-link fence now and pushing on to that fence. But also above the fence you can already see in the pictures that it is growing on to our side of the property so I am concerned once we erect the vinyl fencing we won’t be able to maintain that line and it will continue to push – especially at the top of the fence because then you will get a leaning effect. And also the fence will not be able to be visible from either side her side or our side. Henzi: Can we see the pictures that you have? Petitioner: Sure. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 39 December 13, 2011 Henzi: And while those are going around, you’ve got pictures with a white vinyl fence which one’s got lattice and one’s got sort of a, I don’t know what you would call it, picket, you know, 1 ft. picket at the top. Which is it that you want to use? Petitioner: You’ll actually see they did install the back fence because we have that approval from the back neighbor. Henzi: You want to continue it though? Petitioner: Correct, we want to close in the side of that. That is the only fence that we have up is the chain-link and the vinyl fence that we’re replacing it with. Henzi: The same make and model of the – Petitioner: Correct. Henzi: -- vinyl. That’s what you want is what exists on the back? Petitioner: Correct. Henzi: Got it. Any questions for the Petitioner? Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Just so I’m clear because I’m not. You want to put that fence on the north and south side? Petitioner: I will end up on the north and south side, yes. Caramagno: Both sides of your property? Petitioner: Correct. We’re going to do just the south side this year and then next spring the elderly couple that’s next to us retired I had agreed that I would tear down all of their fencing and clean their part of the yard before I erect the vinyl fencing on that side. So, that’s why we’re going to wait to do that side in the spring. Caramagno: It appears that there is double fencing there now. Is there a wood fence tied to the -- Petitioner: That was there before we moved into the home. Caramagno: Okay. Just on the corner there, no? Petitioner: Correct. Caramagno: Three or four panels. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 39 December 13, 2011 Petitioner: Yeah, they did a little privacy where they come out the door. Yeah, there are two or three panels there. Caramagno: Yeah, yeah. Petitioner: And that will be removed also. Caramagno: What do you have planned for the gates in the front? Petitioner: We will do the vinyl gates across the front when we close in the complete yard because we have a dog so we want to make sure it’s safe. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: Why haven’t you been able to obtain approval from your neighbors? Petitioner: Actually, Anchor Fencing is doing the construction of the fence. Jim, the owner, has been over numerous times. He actually was the first one that went over and she answered the door and asked that we come over to get her approval. We’ve been over and I’ve got a list of dates and times that we’ve over and she will not answer the door. He’s been back two more times and she won’t answer the door. He left another proposal for her to sign off in her door and also attached that he would enclose that small section of hers at no cost for her to sign off and she still will not answer. So we have tried numerous times over the last month. Pastor: Did you get – the other side is giving you permission, is that -- Petitioner: Yes. Pastor: Okay. I was under the impression that neither one did. Okay, thank you. Caramagno: Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: Why is there no grass in your yard? Petitioner: I actually have gutted the whole backyard. Tore down the garage and that’s what we’re starting out with putting up the privacy fence first before we -- Caramagno: Yeah, the next question is do you have a garage? Petitioner: No, do not now. It’s been taken down and removed and this is the first part of redoing our backyard. Caramagno: Do you have plans later to put a garage in? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 39 December 13, 2011 Petitioner: We are going back and forth if we want to do a garage or not. It’s very, as you can see, it’s very narrow going back. I have a full-size truck it’s kind of hard to get down between our house and the fence so we don’t know if we will do a garage and if we do it would be another year or two before we do that. Caramagno: Tell me again, why is it you want the privacy fence? Petitioner: Because now we want to finish off the backyard and we want that privacy from the other neighbors. We also have a dog and we don’t want it barking at the fence or whatever with neighbors that are in their yards. Caramagno: And your plan for the fence to the right, to the south, has your fence contractor told you that when he can put this in there will be no damage to those – what are those arborvitae? Petitioner: Yes, that’s what he’s saying – Caramagno: Shouldn’t have any trouble? Petitioner: -- that he’ll be off 1 inch off of the fence that is existing there now. Caramagno: So, wait, you’re asking to double fence this not take that chain link down. Petitioner: Correct. Yes, I do not want those trees and bushes growing at the bottom to where I can’t maintain it later as it is pushing the fence and it would not be visible from her side or our side, or any of the neighbors. Caramagno: You understand the problem with that though, the double fence trees growing between there, weeds growing between there, there comes litter, animals hanging out in there. You realize the reason why we don’t care for that? Petitioner: Right, but our vinyl fence will be right down at ground level on our side so that – I mean she has her fence all around her yard so it’s completely fenced in, too. Caramagno: Okay, that’s all I got. I’ll pass these pictures around I’m hogging them here. Henzi: Have you ever talked to your neighbor? Petitioner: Yes. Henzi: Is there bad blood between the two of you? Petitioner: It’s bad blood with the whole neighborhood with that neighbor, but, yes. Henzi: Is at least one of the reasons why you want a privacy fence because there’s bad blood between the two of you? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 39 December 13, 2011 Petitioner: No, no, it’s because we have a pet and we want – and that’s just part of how we want to have the final, you know, our backyard to be privacy fence all the way around it and be able to finish it off. We’ve done a lot of work to the front of the house since we’ve moved in and we want to continue into the backyard. Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi: One last – why aren’t the bushes enough? I mean they obscure you from seeing -- Petitioner: Our dog will bark at that fence right now so that’s why we would like to put up the privacy fence. If she’s in her backyard, the dog will bark through the bushes at her or any movement that’s in her yard. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: What kind of dog do you have? Petitioner: We have a lab-setter mix, half and half. Pastor: So, it’s a fairly decent size dog? Petitioner: Yeah, it’s a 70 lb. dog. Pastor: Do you think he could jump the chain-link fence? Petitioner: Hum -- Pastor: Climb it, jump it. Petitioner: Yeah, possibility, yeah, it’s a possibility and we would definitely not want him in somebody else’s yard. Pastor: Back to the garage and I know we’re not here for that, but just curious what are you going to do with your lawn mower and garden equipment? Petitioner: I am now renting a storage unit and that’s where it’s all at right now. It’s not that far from our home, but -- Pastor: So, you’re not going to store that stuff out in the backyard? Petitioner: No, nope. Pastor: In the open air? Petitioner: Nope, it’s actually in storage. Pastor: Okay, thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 39 December 13, 2011 Henzi: I have a question for Mr. Fisher. This is a situation where arborvitae on the adjacent neighbor’s property are overgrown into the Petitioner’s property so whose obligation is it to clean that up? Fisher: I guess -- Henzi: It’s growing through the chain-link fence is my point. Fisher: I’m not sure we see an obligation there, I mean, no inspector is going to go out I don’t think – Dennis can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think any inspector is going to go out there and issue somebody a fine because the bushes have grown too much. It’s real hard to decide what’s too much and there isn’t any ordinance that addresses that. Henzi: Well, I mean, could the Petitioner trim back so that nothing grows through the fence -- Fisher: Sure. Henzi: -- on his side? Fisher: Sure. Henzi: Any other questions? Duggan: Yes, Mr. Chair. Henzi: Mr. Duggan. Duggan: When you do go over and knock on your neighbor’s house is like her car there and you know she’s there and she’s just -- Petitioner: Oh, lights have gone on and over and that’s when I walk over. Duggan: Really? Petitioner: And she has wood floors and you can literally hear her walking around in there. Duggan: And the whole neighborhood has problems with her? Petitioner: Yes. Duggan: Is she -- Petitioner: We have been there almost four years and now that we have gotten to know other neighbors, we have heard other problems and I don’t know if from one of those pictures you can see that they actually installed a wood privacy fence because people City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 39 December 13, 2011 before us also had a dog and she was constantly complaining that the dog was charging her fence. Duggan: Okay, thank you. Petitioner: Uh-huh. Henzi: I have a question about sort of a practical issue. It sounds to me like you want the privacy fence the dog senses movement in her yard and will bark. What if the dog hears her in her yard, I mean, those are narrow lots. Petitioner: Right. Henzi: I mean, if she’s grilling on the patio. Petitioner: It’s more of movement. Henzi: Mowing the lawn, I mean, isn’t he going to bark. Petitioner: Yeah, it’s been more movement on the other side and also the other neighbors that are to the north of us. It’s not so much when, you know, we talk over the fence or whatever, but it seems to be like it’s more of a movement situation when the dog is more alert. They are a hunter dog so they are keen on that kind of movement and that type of thing. Henzi: Okay. Is there anyone in the – is there any other questions? Anyone in the audience want to speak for or against this project? If so, come on up. Martin: Christopher Martin, 12275 Inkster Road, Livonia 48150. I’m in favor of fences, but the question that I do have on this is that I have read that Fence ordinance from ’94 and this might help the Petitioner a little bit is that when arborvitae are put up – let’s pretend there’s no fence, there’s nothing. When a row of arborvitaes are put up as a divider between one property and another, they act as a fence. So, currently the southern neighbor has two fences, the arborvitae and the cyclone; is that correct? Petitioner: I’m not aware of that. Martin: Anyway, that’s the way I read it. So currently the southern neighbor has two fences. The arborvitae is a fence, the cyclone is a fence. So if the Inspection Department wanted to follow that ordinance, they could make the southern neighbor take down one of the two then you could put up that fence. It would be real nice. That’s the way I read the ordinance. Henzi: Don’t we still have a double fence though? Martin: You still have a double fence but she’d have to do – then you’d have a triple if you put his up. At least -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 39 December 13, 2011 Henzi: Right. Martin: -- something has to go either the arborvitae or the cyclone has to go my understanding of it. So if you made her pull out the cyclone, okay? Then it would be great for that nice white plastic fence fantastic. Petitioner: The only question I have with taking out the chain link though is that’s the part I don’t want those bushes to continually push on my fence low down. It’s going to be bad enough when I get above that 4 ft. height that I still am going to have the arborvitae growing and pushing at the top of the fence, but I don’t want it to be pushing all of the fence. Martin: You can trim anything on your property as long as you don’t kill the shrubs or a tree. Once it’s on your property you can trim it, but I think also the arborvitae there’s a height requirement on that, too, 6 ft. because it acts as a fence. Petitioner: And it’s well above 6 ft. Martin: So you’d have to cut it down to 6 ft. the arborvitae because that’s a privacy fence height is 6 ft. So, she’s going to have to get out there and trim those bushes one way or other. That’s the way I see it. Henzi: Okay, thank you. Anybody else? Mrs. Twichell: I’m Barb Twichell. I live at the same house 11036 Berwick and I just wanted to answer some of the questions about the trees up against that side. They are kind of a fence but they’re very unsightly at the bottom almost half way up the fence. There’s one of them that’s even starting to die off and our project is we’re redoing the entire backyard that’s why we’ve leveled everything off everything was uneven. We had sitting water. The most grotesque garage you’ve ever seen we tore down this year and our goal is to make our backyard awesome. I want it to look great and if I’m going to put up a privacy fence on one side and on the back and I have those trees on the right in the future when and if we sell our house, someone is going to come in and go, this is great over there but by that time those trees are going to be even worse. They’re not maintained at all like he said and, you know, they’re turning brown. They’re just, you know, there are gaps in between which is why the dog will bark at her now. And then I wanted to say that we have neighbors in the back of us that have two kids I think they’re like ages 9 and 11. They have a swing set. And we actually had to go without the back fence for a while because we were waiting on her signature and then we just couldn’t wait any more because he would constantly run over to them while they were playing and barking and whatever because he wanted to play. So, we put up that back fence and made the appointment to come here. And now when they’re out there, he doesn’t bark at them. We can hear them, we can see them on the swing set but he doesn’t care now. So, it’s kind of different – I mean, he can kind of see through the bottoms of the trees there, but he doesn’t care about the kids behind us any more. So, I just wanted to add that. Duggan: Mr. Chair, can I ask a question? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 39 December 13, 2011 Henzi: Sure, Mr. Duggan. Duggan: How long have - those trees have been there since you guys have been there four years? Petitioner: Yeah. Duggan: And they’ve gotten bigger since -- Petitioner: Yes. Duggan: -- you moved in four years ago? Petitioner: And like she said, I mean -- Duggan: They’re big. Petitioner: Yeah, and they are getting unsightly through all patchy because that’s just that type of bushes, a lot of dead spots. Duggan: Okay, thanks. Mrs. Twichell: And there’s one more thing I wanted to say, there’s not necessarily bad blood with the neighbor, we just don’t talk. We did a few years ago. She came over and actually introduced herself. We had repaired the lawn on her side because it was all muddy and stuff because our driveway was not paved at the time so I actually raked that up, put some grass seed down and she came over and thanked us, gave us gift certificates and ever since then like if we have contractors come out, she is watching to see if they’re on her sidewalk and she tells them to move. So, it’s not like it’s at us it just she’s very – you know – so it’s not like we’ve had bad words or anything like that. It’s nothing like that. It’s just she sticks to her thing and just is very into her own little world and that’s it. So, I just wanted to make sure you guys knew there were no fights or anything like that. Henzi: Okay, any other questions? Okay. I see no one else to speak, can you read the letters. Caramagno: Yes, we have an approval (letter read). I’m not sure who that came from, but we’ve got it. We have a response attached from Dave and Cheryl Garrett [11029 Auburndale St.] an objection (letter read). Stacy Truax [11034 Berwick](letter read) an objection. Henzi: Mr. Twichell, I will let you respond to all of her points, but I had a question for you. Petitioner: Okay. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 39 December 13, 2011 Henzi: When I read her letter, I can’t tell if she’s even opposed to the privacy fence so, you know, it seems to me like maybe there is some room to get her approval. Petitioner: Well, that – believe me, sir, we’ve written down the times and dates that we have gone over there. I mean, the owner of Anchor has been there three times himself. Mrs. Twichell: And we know when her car is there she is home. That’s why we attempted on the dates that we did and she’s right she did have damage to her lawn which is the story I just told where I raked it up, I seeded it, she brought us gift certificates. I’ve lived in the city my whole life I know how people are about their lawn I’m the same way. So, I made sure to fix it and she was totally fine with that. We’ve been really good about, you know, making sure our contractors know not to go on her lawn. We know there’s an issue. We’ve been really respectful and, of course, we fixed the lawn at our expense of the seed and all of that. I’ve no problem, you know, fixing what we have done wrong. Henzi: And when you go over there, it’s when her car is there? Petitioner: Yes, I mean, actually when I see lights go on and off, then I even know for sure she’s there and that’s -- Mrs. Twichell: She parks down on the driveway so it’s not like she’s in the garage or anything. She parks right by the sidewalk so we know she’s there. Henzi: All right, the reason I threw that in in the middle to let you is because generally when we have this situation and the neighbor objects, they write a letter like this but it’s more along the lines of don’t give them what they want because I don’t want them to have it, you know, evidencing that there’s bad blood. And then I saw how long this was and thought it was going to be like that, but it really wasn’t. Petitioner: Yeah, that’s -- Henzi: So, anyway -- Petitioner: Yeah, and like I say, when we moved into the home, it just had the old two- track concrete and so we had that all redone and nice concrete as you can see and that’s where it started because she was like come over and said, what are you – we’ll fix it all and she actually used the same contractor to do her driveway. So, it wasn’t like she was upset with that contractor. He went next door and did her driveway next. But we did have an issue with trees a couple years back and they actually came and started when I was not at home yet. And when I got home, I could see – you can see how narrow our driveway was that their larger truck the tires were running on her side, but again, I raked and cleaned it up and this last time when we had trees removed, this is how good the company was. They actually had sheets of plywood and they leaned them from our driveway up against her basement so that her grass didn’t even get touched by any of the trees as they were being dragged out. I mean, we knew how she was and so we wanted the best service to take care of so that we didn’t have a problem City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 39 December 13, 2011 with her again. And I think they went out of their way, saw the length of that, they literally laid sheets of plywood so that her grass would not be damaged at all. Henzi: All right, the last question. You’ve never had any conversation so you can’t say that for example, she’s got a problem with you removing the garage or anything. You don’t know what -- Petitioner: No. Henzi: -- her objection is. Petitioner: No, that’s - and like I say with that letter, we have tried. I mean, we’ve tried to go over there and so if she’s using that that we haven’t tried to be a good neighbor, I think that we’ve tried and have been a good neighbor as often as, but we don’t deal with her. We’re not friends with her so we don’t talk or whatever that much, but we have gone out of our way to try and make sure and stay off her lawn or whatever the case is. Henzi: Okay. Anything else you’d like to say in closing? Petitioner: No. Mrs. Twichell: There’s one thing I have to the other objection about the – I guess the two fences like meshing together. The fencing guy had offered to put another panel there so – first of all, if he didn’t I don’t think you’d be able to see the other fence because the bushes are so far into it from the sidewalk side, but if she had allowed him to put that other panel up then you wouldn’t have seen it any way. And the same thing goes for the back of the property also and the guy behind us has a huge lot so it’s not like you can see it from the sidewalk on that side. Henzi: Can you say that again, I didn’t follow that. Mrs. Twichell: The other objection not the neighbor, but he had said that he was concerned what it looks like to have one fence and then another one going down right along side it. Henzi: Right. Mrs. Twichell: I don’t think you’d be able to see that chain-link fence because the trees are already so far into it. Henzi: Oh, yeah, okay. I see your point. Anything else? Any other questions? Okay. I’ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board’s comments with Mr. Duggan. Duggan: You know, I like what you guys are doing with, you know, you’re obviously investing in your property. You know, you guys are really going all out. I think that’s great. With the neighbor issues, you know, I’m hesitant for us to get – to make that decision to say if you can do that or not, you know, but she wrote a long letter, you City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 39 December 13, 2011 know, if she was that against she could have shown up or she could have gone and seen you two. You went over there three times and she saw it so, you know, I will be in support. Henzi: Mrs. Aloe. Aloe: I think actually what I’d like to see is a tabling motion. I don’t, as one Board member, I don’t like to be put in between two neighbors and I do believe what you’ve said. I don’t doubt that at all, but I would still like to have another opportunity to get her to agree to take – although that’s not what you want, but to take that cyclone fence down and let there be one fence there. So, I would ask for a tabling motion to try one more time to resolve this with your neighbor. Henzi: Mr. Caramagno. Caramagno: I think you’re close on getting what you want with this neighbor it’s just a matter of communicating and people are difficult. And she’s probably as difficult as anybody we’ve heard, but her letter doesn’t say that she’s difficult. She says all she wants to do is talk, but doesn’t want to come out of the house. I don’t know if you’ve got to holler louder or what you’ve got to do. But I would agree with tabling and trying to communicate with her. I’m not a fan of double fence because of the things that can grow between it and trees and you can look all over this city and you see places where double fences have been around for years. And you see trees that wind up being, you know, this big around growing out. It just looks like hell. So, I’m not a fan of double fences, but I am a fan of tabling this thing and giving you a chance to talk to her and put up one nice fence and she can leave her trees. I think both of you wind up with a nice deal. Henzi: Mr. Pastor. Pastor: I will offer the tabling motion because that’s where I was going to go because I will not approve a double fence. I have a serious problem with that so I hope you can knock loud enough on her down to actually get her to answer it, but I cannot consciously approve a double fence. Henzi: We get this scenario more often than you might think and my position generally has been that I like privacy fences but I don’t like to force them on people. I really don’t like to force them on people when the objecting neighbor says I like the open park-like setting. We don’t have that here. We have somebody who has got a line of 8 ft. arborvitaes and I really don’t see what the objection would be because the fence is going to be on your side of the property. However, because it’s December, I don’t think you’re going to be putting the fence up in the next couple of weeks. Petitioner: Yeah, it’s actually built and just waiting to be installed. He has it built. You guys only meet once a month so I mean, we’ve been trying to do this. That’s our problem. We’re starting to run more out of time to get it installed and that’s my concern. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 39 December 13, 2011 Henzi: I understand. I guess I’ll go along with a tabling, but would recommend that, you know, perhaps you want to send her a certified letter. You might want to go to the Zoning Board office when after these minutes are approved. Give her that because I think you have been very reasonable and if she writes another letter next time and doesn’t show up and there’s no greater objection, you might be more successful. But I hate putting something up like that forever when there’s a possibility that she might say, yeah, let’s take the chain-link down. So, I’m willing for that reason to give it one more shot. So, the floor is open for a motion. Upon Motion by Pastor, supported by Caramagno, it was: RESOLVED, APPEAL CASE NO. 2011-12-56: Dennis Twichell, 11036 Berwick, Livonia, MI 48150 seeking to erect a privacy fence, adjacent to a chain-link fence, which double fencing is not allowed, and also not obtaining approval from the adjacent property owners, which is a requirement. The property is located on the east side of Berwick (11036) between Elmira and Orangelawn, be tabled so the Petitioner can attempt to get an approval from his neighbor to remove the chain-link fence and erect a privacy fence. Petitioner will return in five months or sooner. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor, Caramagno, Aloe, Duggan, Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: Sills, McCue Henzi: This is tabled. The next available date is January 10th. If you call the ZBA office before December 21st at 10:00 a.m. you will be on for the 10th. If you don’t want the 10th, our January meeting is the 24th. Those are the next meetings. And, of course, you don’t have to do it in January. And then in general, I tell all Petitioners you don’t have to change anything to your application if you don’t want. You can come back with the exact same plan, but that’s your option. Petitioner: So, is there anything that is going to be mailed to us now or – I’m not quite sure -- Henzi: Well, you call the ZBA office and speak to Jackie and if you want that January 10th date, you can just call any time before the 21st, say we’d like to be put on for January 10th and she will reschedule it. If you don’t want the 10th, pick another date and she’ll reschedule it. That’s all you need to do. Pastor: And try and get a hold of your neighbor. Petitioner: Well, it isn’t going to matter now. It’s just going to get pulled. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 39 December 13, 2011 Motion by Pastor, supported by Caramagno, to approve the minutes of 11/15/2011 meeting. All were in favor. There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting adjourned at 8:45 p.m. _____________________________ SAM CARAMAGNO, Secretary ______________________________ MATTHEW HENZI, Chairman /hm