Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MINUTES 2017-03-28 SPECIAL MEETING 1 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING HELD MARCH 28, 2017 A Special Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday , March 28 , 2017 . MEMBERS PRESENT: Matthew I . Henzi , Chairman James M . Baringhaus , Secretary Craig S. Pastor , Vice Chairman Gregory G. Coppola Timothy J . Klisz Benjamin A. Schepis MEMBERS ABSENT: Leo D. Neville OTHERS PRESENT: Michael E . Fisher, City Attorney Craig S. Hanosh , City Inspector Janet M . Seewald , CSR-5079 The meeting was called to order at seven p. m . Chairman Henzi explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties . Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal . Appeals of the Zoning Board ' s decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court . The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date of tonight ' s minutes are approved . The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision . There are four decisions the Board can make: To deny, to grant , to grant as modified by the Board , or to table for further information . Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board . Six (6) members were present this evening . The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal , and each petitioner indicated their presence . Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet , petitioners and I City Departments . There were 19 people present in the audience . (7 : 00) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 2 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S Appeal Case # Pages 2017-02-12 3 - 7 (Phipps) 2017-03-14 8 - 20 (Vigneron) 2017-03-15 21 - 29 (Barrick) 2017-03-16 30 - 51 (MH1 ) 2017-03-17 52 - 66 (Tomanovich) 2017-03-17 67 - 77 (Presutti ) City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 3 APPEAL CASE NO. 2017-02-12 Tabled on February 28 2017) : An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by David Phipps , 3699 Vorhies , Ann Arbor , MI 48105 , on behalf of Lessee Aletha Senior Apartments , 14931 Farmington , Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct four (4) multistory buildings and carports/structures , resulting in deficient side and rear yard setbacks . Side Yard Setback for the Two-Scor Buildin s or Less : Required : 50 ft . Proposed : 24 ft - 31 ft . Deficient : 19 ft - 26 ft . Side Yard Setback for the Four-Story Buildings : Required : 60 ft . Proposed : 55 . 7 ft - 58 . 9 ft . Deficient : 4. 3 ft - 8 . 9 ft . Rear Yard Setback for the Carports/Structures : Required : 50 ft . Proposed : 10 ft . Deficient : 40 ft . The property is located on the west side of Farmington (14931 ) , between Five Mile and Lyndon , Lot . No . 081 -99-0018-000 , Medium Density Residential . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543 , Section 29 . 05 (3) (a) , and (3) (b) (2) , "Establishment of Area , Bulk and Placement Regulations . " Henzi : Mr. Hanosh , anything to add to this case? Hanosh : Not at this time , Mr. Chair. Henzi : Any questions for Mr . Hanosh? Coppola: Mr . Chair. Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : Question for Mr . Fisher : Are you satisfied that the notice now reflects what ' s being requested pursuant to the plans that were provided? Fisher : This notice corresponds to the proposal as I understand it . Coppola : Thank you . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 4 Henzi : Good evening . Introduce yourselves , please . McCann : Good day. Attorney Jim McCann on behalf of Mr . Phipps and this project . Phipps : I ' m Dave Phipps . Henzi : Before you start , Mr . McCann , do you agree that the notice was appropriate? McCann : Yes . I did review it , I did discuss it with the Building Department , and we ' re in agreement that it provides the notice required . Henzi : Okay. Thanks . Go ahead . Tell us about the building . McCann : Well , this is a senior community of 55 and older residents . The idea is that as Livonia is growing older and older, our average population is up to 60 , there ' s many people in our community that would like to downsize to something . They may have a cottage up north or they may have a Florida home, and they just want something here in Livonia to see kids , to be around , and we think that this will provide a great opportunity . It ' s right in the central campus across the street from the senior center, police, fire . We ' ve got grocery shopping , restaurants , city hall all within walking distance . So we think that targeting that older group would be a really good asset for the community and a good use of the property . Henzi : Can you go over something that you mentioned I think at the last meeting about essentially why the deficiencies aren ' t that significant because of where the property is located? McCann : Right . If you take a look at the west side , we have the school storage yard . All along the west side is where they park the busses - - or the north side , excuse me, the north side is where they park all of the busses . The west side is the cemetery. There' s a house just to the east of it , but between that we have the main drive coming in between the main - - between the home and the building number two which will be a two-story residential building . We will have a three-story residential building , correct? Phipps : Yes . McCann : Three-story residential building . The front story City of .Livonia, .Toning Board of Appoa7s March 28, 2017 5 building will be one-story area with a workout area , pool , community center , and then the four stories will be all in the back towards the cemetery and the school parking lot . Phipps : We might say the cemetery is up in front too. McCann : Yes . The cemetery is in front of the main school building as well . Henzi : Any questions? You ' re done? Is there anyone in the audience who wants to speak for or against the project? If so , c ' mon up . No one is coming up . Baringhaus : There are no letters . Henzi : Mr. McCann , anything you wanted to say in closing? McCann : No . We hope that it will benefit the community . It ' s something I think more and more people would like to find if we had it in this area of the community . Henzi : This will close the public portion of the case and begin the Board ' s comments with Mr . Schepis . Schepis : Well , I think this will be a great project . I think it fills the need in the community , and I think that the way that you ' ve designed it and presented it is beautiful . Our concern - - or my concern I should say - - last time was simply that the notice was improper with respect to the carport deficiency on the west side , and I wanted to make sure that people had proper notice to object if they wanted to. No one has objected , and I won ' t either . I ' m in support of this . Pastor : Mr. Chair , Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor : Yes , I ' ll also be in support of this . And that was my primary concern last time was the notice . But we ' ve talked about this , so I ' ll be in full support . Baringhaus : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : I share the concern with the accuracy of the notice that was clarified this evening . I agree with my colleagues ; I think the facility is very well thought out , very well designed and it ' ll be a definite asset to the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 6 community. Based on that , I ' ll support the variance . Coppola : Mr. Chair, Henzi : Mr . Coppola , Coppola : I ' m going to support it . I think the uniqueness of this property would have made it difficult to develop in anything substantial . I think it ' s a great use for this property . I think it will be a benefit to the community . And in the request , these handful of variances are very diminutive compared to what ' s being done . So in support . Henzi : Mr . Klisz? Klisz : And I agree as well . I think it ' s been looked at by the Planning Commission , the City Council has gone over it , there is no objections to it , it ' s a great project and I ' ll support it . Henzi : I too will support it . I think it ' s a great project I think it blends in with the adjoining neighbors , uses of the property, and just suggest that we incorporate City Council requirements . Floor is open . Coppola : Mr, Chair . Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Upon Motion by Coppola and supported by Pastor , it was : RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2017.02-12 (Tabl'ed on 2/28/17)_: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by David Phipps , 3699 Vorhies , Ann Arbor, MI 48106 , on behalf of Lessee, Aletha Senior Apartments , 14931 Farmington , Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct four (4) multistory buildings and carports/structures , resulting in deficient side and rear yard setbacks . Side Yard Setback for the Two-Story Buildings or Less: Required : 50 ft . Proposed : 24 ft - 31 ft . Deficient : 19 ft - 26 ft . Side Yard Setback for the Four-Story Buildings : Required : 60 ft . Proposed : 55 . 7 ft - 58. 9 ft . Deficient : 4. 3 ft - 8. 9 ft , Rear Yard Setback for the Carports/Structures: Required : 50 ft . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 Proposed : 10 ft . Deficient : 40 ft . The property is located on the west side of Farmington (14931 ) , between Five Mile and Lyndon , Lot . No . 081 -99-0018-000 , Medium Density Residential . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543 , Section 29 . 05 (3) (a) , and (3) (b) (2) , "Establishment of Area , Bulk and Placement Regulations , " be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact : 1 . The uniqueness requirement is met due to the location and placement of the property . 2 . Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner due to the property having limited uses and difficult to develop otherwise . 3 . The variance is fair in light of its effect on the neighboring properties per the zoning ordinance because the impacts are minimal to adjoining properties . 4. The property is classified as R9 Zoning , the Master Plan and proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification . FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions : 1 . Adhere to the Planning Commission and City Council guidelines . ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES : Coppola , Pastor , Henzi , Baringhaus , Klisz , Schepis NAYS: None ABSENT: Neville Henzi : The motion is granted with that one condition . Good luck to you . McCann : Thank you very , very much . Phipps : Thank you . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 8 APPEAL CASE NO. 2097-03-94. An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by The Most Reverend Allen H . Vigneron , 12 State Street , Detroit , MI 48226 , on behalf of Lessee St . Edith Church , 15089 Newburgh , Livonia , MI 48154 , seeking to erect a ground sign , resulting in excess sign area and an electronic message board . Electronic message boards are not allowed in this zoning district . Ground Sign Area : Allowed : 30 . 0 sq . ft . Proposed : 34. 6 sq . ft . Excess : 4. 6 sq . ft . The property is located on the west side of Newburgh (15089) , between Five Mile and Jamison , Lot . No . 073-99-0006-002 , R-1 Zoning District . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543 , Section 18 . 50E(g) 1 , "Sign Regulations for Residential Districts , " and Section 18 . 50H (o) 1 , "Ground Sign and Message Board . " Henzi : Mr . Hanosh , anything to add to this case? Hanosh : Not at this time , Mr . Chair. Henzi : Anything questions for Mr. Hanosh? Hearing none , good evening . Rev . McNulty : Good evening . Henzi : Would you please introduce yourself? Rev . McNulty : My name is Reverend James McNulty. I ' m representing Archbishop Allen Vigneron as his agent . Henzi : Father McNulty, go ahead and tell us about the project . Rev . McNulty : Okay . We want to replace the sign in front of our church , and we wanted to have an LED sign . And all churches in Livonia are zoned as residential . We are a church and a school . We feel like if we were only the school we' d be - - we would not be zoned residential and we would like to have the LED sign . The reason why is because the marquee style sign that we have now is very out of date . We have difficulty keeping the sign up to date because of physical problems , particularly in the winter. This winter hasn ' t been too bad , but in general the plastic letters freeze and break, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 3 the case freezes shut and it gives a real bad image of our church . If we have things on the sign that are outdated , it looks like there ' s nothing going on there . The sign is blank. It looks like there ' s nothing going on there . And we want to be more up to date so that we can use it . We are really not in a residential area . To the left of our property is a strip mall and a gas station , Newburgh is a major road . Across the street from our church , across the street from the church on Newburgh , is a parking lot , a soccer field for Madonna University, Ladywood High School . There is on the same side of the street to the right are some homes . Only one of them would you even be able to see the sign from, and the sign is like a football field away from that home. The gas station and Ladywood High School already have LED signs . We feel like we wouldn ' t be classified as residential if we were only a school , but since we are a church as well we ' re classified as residential , Henzi : What kinds of things would you show on the sign? Rev . McNulty: Just lettering . It would essentially be the same things we ' re showing now on the sign . It would just be we would be able to change the information . Henzi : Any questions for the Petitioner? Pastor : Mr . Chair. Henzi : Mr . Pastor. Pastor : Why do you need the extra square footage? Rev . McNulty: We are not applying for the variance for the extra square footage . When I had this sign designed , I asked them to design something where we would not need a variance . I didn ' t want that to be an issue , and we can redesign the sign . When I followed-up with the sign company and they said because of this sign that we ' re replacing and the size of it and so forth that that would be allowable . The sign - - actually the new sign design is not as tall as the old sign . It ' s a little bit wider. Pastor : But that would be allowable? What did they tell you would be allowable? Rev . McNulty : Because of the size of the sign that we ' re City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 10 replacing , they said that we could replace it with this design . And I didn ' t want to make that an issue ; if that ' s an issue , we can redesign the sign . The size of it is not the issue that we wanted to bring forward . Henzi : Any other questions? Baringhaus : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : Question for the Building Department : Looking at the proposed signage , I notice the address is at the bottom of the sign and that the actual address numbers are not that large. Is there a requirement in terms of lettering size for like building addresses? Hanosh : Usually on commercial properties or a property like this they would even go up to at least a four- inch letter for numbering purposes on the address . Baringhaus : Question for the Petitioner : How long have you had your current sign on the property area in its current location? Rev . McNulty: I believe it ' s probably been - - it was before I was the pastor there, but I would guess maybe about 25 years . Baringhaus : In terms of other churches in the areas , which churches do you know that have electronic signs? Rev . McNulty: I ' m not aware of that . Baringhaus : Perhaps a question for the Building Inspection Department . Hanosh : Usually churches are zoned RUF , Rural Urban Farms . Electronic reader boards like this are not allowed . They' re only allowed in commercial districts in the City . There is none . Baringhaus : Thank you . Henzi : Any other questions? Klisz : Mr . Chair. Henzi : Mr . Klisz . City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 Klisz : According to the documents we have , it says that this is zoned Office . Is that correct? Fisher : It ' s actually a Master Plan . Klisz : Oh , Master Plan . Fisher : But I think that ' s - - I don ' t think that ' s correct actually . I think it really is Low Density Residential even on the Master Plan . Hanosh : It is residential . It ' s actually R1 . It ' s zoned Rl . Henzi : Thank you . Any other questions? Baringhaus : Mr . Chairman , Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : Tell me about the programming of the sign and how does that work. How is that more convenient for you? Some background on the process on how the sign messages are loaded into it . Rev . McNulty : The current sign that we have now is a marquee type sign , and somebody has to physically go out and put up each letter . The sign is actually in a grassy area , so if it snows you have to shovel first so you can get out there . The way the board is designed there is a glass case that covers it so people can ' t mess with the lettering . However , if we have that on there , that cover freezes shut during the winter so we can ' t get it open . And if we leave it open , of course then everything gets wet on the inside and the letters freeze , the letters break, we can ' t get them off . So every time we want to change the message that ' s on the sign , we actually have to physically go out and change it . Baringhaus : And then for the proposed sign with the electronic message board , is that programmed off a computer in your office - - Rev , McNulty: Yes . Baringhaus : - - a console? So you can remotely do that from like an office or a sheltered location? Rev . McNulty: That ' s correct . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 12 Baringhaus : Thank you . Henzi : Any other questions? Reverend McNulty, were you or was Saint Edith involved in a lobbying effort to City Council to try and change the ordinance that prohibits churches from having LED reader boards? Rev . McNulty : Yes . Henzi : Can you basically describe for me the process and the end result of that lobbying effort? Rev . McNulty : The group wanted to have an exception for all churches , and I can understand why that didn ' t happen . Some churches are in neighborhoods surrounded by residential homes , but Saint Edith is not . Henzi : Was that the feedback that you got from City Council , that there are a great deal of churches that are in the middle of residential areas and they didn ' t want signs or was it some something different? Rev . McNulty : That was my understanding . Henzi : Okay. Thank you . Fisher : Mr . Chair , if I can just add - - Henzi : Mr. Fisher . Fisher : There' s also a fairly serious First Amendment issue with - - since the Supreme Court decision in Reed versus the Town of Gilbert , there' s a great deal of sensitivity to allowing a sign for anybody , any specific discrete group , churches or anybody else, that other people aren ' t allowed to have . So there is in the process right now an effort by municipal attorneys across Michigan to come up with a model ordinance that complies with that Supreme Court decision , but that ' s very tricky to achieve. Henzi : How will we ever achieve that? Fisher : Well , we ' re hoping that we - - yes , it ' s a problem , there ' s no question . But we ' re hoping that we are able to come up with a satisfactory model ordinance. Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : Mr . Fisher , if I could ask, just to dig a little City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 13 deeper and put it towards this particular situation . Based on that Supreme Court ruling , if we were to approve this sign for Saint Edith ' s , does that in essence provide other churches with the leverage they need then to state that they are being discriminated against and they also should have an electronic reader board because of us having this approval even though there may be some distinct differences between them and others? Fisher : Well , I think there ' ll be that , and plus there will already be a potential protest on behalf of those churches who have been before the board and have been turned away . So yes , there is sort of a potential double whammy there . Coppola : Thank you . Pastor : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor : Mr . Fisher , how long do you think it ' s going to take you attorneys to craft something along these lines to help the churches? Or whatever we ' re trying to do . Fisher : I would hasten to say that this effort would be intended to help everyone , not just churches . And unfortunately, I don ' t have a timetable for you because none has been given me. I ' ve been wondering that same question myself , and I fulfilled at least my role so far in this and I ' m waiting for everyone else to finish their work, Pastor : But are you talking a year or are you talking 10 years? Fisher : Oh , no , no . I definitely hope it ' s done within the year . Pastor : Okay . Fisher : In fact , months I would hope . Pastor : Okay. Thank you . Henzi : Mr . Fisher , can you remind me , what level of commercial enterprises could have a sign without requesting a variance under Livonia' s ordinance? Fisher: To have a sign and - - to have an LED sign , you have to have otherwise compliant signage . You have to have no more than half of your ground sign be LED, so that basically City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appears March 28, 2017 14 works out to 15 square feet of LED signage on the ground in your place of business . Henzi : But it ' s got to be commercially zoned , right or - - Fisher : Yes . It has to be commercially zoned . Henzi : So it ' s not just the other churches that might object , it ' s doctors ' offices and other noncommercial enterprises that would say , "Me too , " right? Fisher : I guess that ' s a fair statement . Henzi : Any other questions? Hearing none , is there anyone in the audience that wants to speak for or against the project? If so , c ' mon up to the table . No one is coming forward . Are there letters? Baringhaus : We have letters . Henzi : Oh , hang on . I ' m sorry. Boyd : I ' m for it . Henzi : Can you tell us your name and address , please? Boyd : My name is Mark Boyd , and my address is 14719 Ronnie Lane . I ' ve been a resident in Livonia for over 20 years . I ' m a trustee of Newburgh United Methodist Church on Ann Arbor Trail just east of Newburgh Road . I ' m sorry I 'm late . I was coaching LJAL basketball , and we just had our last game tonight so I just ran over from the gym and I missed the presentation . We ' re in the same boat as Saint Edith ' s , and I ' m sorry if I ' m repeating anything that you guys have already been through . We ' re in the same boat . We ' re a community church . What we' d like is an electronic sign to replace the sign that ' s already out there. We ' re not trying to reinvent the wheel . We already have a sign out there , and we have to go out constantly and change that sign . What we ' re putting on our sign is stuff like , "Boy Scouts Meeting here on Wednesday nights , " "Livonia Pom Meets Here , " "Parents Night Out , " where you can drop off your kids . "Free Thanksgiving Dinner , " "Community Picnic , " for anyone who would like to Come , " "Free Community Picnic. " We ' re a community church . Everything we do with our church involving with our sign involves our community . And I think it ' s time for us to move forward and to allow electronic City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 15 signage out there . And I think if we put in good rules and criteria for what we ' re allowed to do and the sign , the size of the sign and how long it can be turned on and all the things like that , we would have no problem abiding by all the rules and any of the rules the City would put in place . But what we ' re doing now is we have people going out there in the winter two and three times a week trying to get up more information for our neighbors to see. As far as us being in a residential area , our pastor said it very well , we were talking about it at our trustees ' meeting . He said , "This is where we' re supposed to be. We ' re supposed to be in the residential areas . That ' s where churches are supposed to be . " We ' re a community church , and this would be a big plus for us as far as modernizing what we do , modernizing getting our message out to our neighbors , and we think it ' s time that the City would allow this to go through . Thank you . Henzi : Thank you . Anybody else? Can you read the letters , please? Baringhaus : Letter of approval , Thomas Sawicki , 37605 Howell Street . (Letter read . ) Next one is a letter of approval from Elmart Shelley , 14957 Newburgh Road . (Letter read . ) Marilyn K. Davis , 37708 Howell Street , letter of approval . (Letter read . ) Letter of objection , Donald M . Daugherty , 37551 Howell Street . (Letter read . ) Henzi : Reverend McNulty, have anything to say in closing? Rev . McNulty : Yeah . I 'd just like to add that we' re already able to put the messages on the sign . The only difference would be it would be an LED sign rather than the marquee type sign . I don ' t think many doctors ' offices would be interested in something like that . It doesn ' t seem that most businesses would . Henzi : Thank you . That ' ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board ' s comments with Mr . Pastor . Pastor : At this time , I don ' t think I can support this sign . I disagree with you , I think every business in Livonia will want one . And I ' m not a proponent of signage to begin with . I ' m not a big proponent of this electronic signs . I do think they ' re busy , I think they change too often and I do believe they distract drivers . And since Mr . Fisher brought to light that the State attorneys are working on another solution , I ' d like to see what that happens - - what happens with that . So at this particular moment , I City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 1& will not support this . Henzi : Mr. Baringhaus Baringhaus : I agree with Mr . Pastor in the sense that (1 ) , I think that really none of the churches in the area have the signage at this point , and I think it wouldn ' t be wise to establish that precedent at this time . I would like to see the model ordinance that Mr . Fisher shared with us come into light and then evaluate that signage at that time . You still have the ability to communicate with traffic on Newburgh Road with your current signage , and also you have other channels available as well ; social media , etcetera . So at this point , I ' m not in favor of the variance. Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : I guess I ' d like to take a look at this in two tranches here . I think the first tranche is the size and the design that was displayed , the excess of 4. 6 square feet . I probably don ' t have an issue with that . I like the new signs , a little more modern , looks pretty nice . In regard to the electronic message board though , I can ' t support that . And while I think you such as Saint Edith and some of the other churches in the city are uniquely placed that they' d probably be less impactful than those in the middle of a residence , as we discussed earlier amongst the Board and Council , the difficulties of allowing one kind of opens up the Pandora ' s box for a plethora of signs in front of churches . So I ' d agree with some of the Board members in regards to electronic sign . I ' d like to see what the new ordinance language is that can allow us to look at these more on a one -off basis than creating maybe kind of a rush to the door for electronic signs for a number of different enterprises . So just to be clear , ground sign area , I ' m in support of that ; electronic message board I am not in support of. Henzi : Mr . Kl i sz . Klisz : I ' m going to have to agree with my colleagues . Unfortunately , things are changing in regards to the electronic signs , but it ' s not our job to start changing that . That ' s something that ' s going to have to happen through City Council , through the Law Department . Once they change it , then technically these new signs are going to be allowed as under the ordinance and we won ' t even have to hear them probably would be the case . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 17 The other thing is the consistency of it . The cases that we looked at , both churches coming before this board in 2006 and again in 2015 , were both denied . Especially the 2015 one , there was an overwhelming opposition from neighbors too . We didn 't have that quite in this case , but still it ' s just essentially my opinion that it ' s not our place to start changing essentially the law of the City . That might happen in due time , but I can ' t be in support of this time . Henzi : Mr . Schepis . Schepis : Unfortunately , I also can ' t support this . We ' ve consistently denied this type of signage to other churches , and I don ' t know that we can start here . I also think that the gentleman that came up and spoke made a good point , which was there needs to be generally applicable rules to deal with these signs , and that ' s not this Board ' s goal , although it sounds like those rules are in the process of being developed . So hopefully in the not too distant future you ' ll have the opportunity for this type of sign . Henzi : I ' m very empathetic to this request . I ' m very sympathetic to the argument that why does McDonald ' s get a reader board and a community-based organization like a church can ' t have an electronic reader board to showcase Holy Week service times . That ' s not lost on me . I think that the two variances requested though are very different . The one to Mr. Coppola ' s point , they were a variance regarding excess and size all over the place within the City of Livonia and typically with good reason . But the one about whether the church can have an LED reader board or not means either you have it or you do not . To me that ' s a legislative function , and I ' ll take the same position - - unfortunately for Saint Edith - - that I took when I denied Saint Aidan in 2006 which was very similar to this one which is that I think the ordinance needs to be changed by City Council as opposed to this board picking and choosing which reader board signs it allows . And to underscore Mr. Fisher ' s point , that if we let one - - once we cross the line , there ' s never going to be any going back. So that ' s my position , and I ' ll look to the Board for a motion . Upon Motion by Baringhaus and supported by Pastor , it was : RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2017-03-94 : An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by The Most Reverend Allen H . Vigneron , 12 State Street , Detroit , MI 48226 , on behalf of Lessee Saint Edith Church , 15089 Newburgh , City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appea7s March 28, 2017 18 Livonia , MT 48154, seeking to erect a ground sign , resulting in excess sign area and an electronic message board . Electronic message boards are not allowed in this zoning district . Ground Sign Area : Allowed : 30 . 0 sq . ft . Proposed : 34. 6 sq . ft . Excess : 4. 6 sq . ft . The property is located on the west side of Newburgh (15089) , between Five Mile and Jamison , Lot . No . 073-99-0006-002 , R-1 Zoning District . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543 , Section 18 . 50E (g) l , "Sign Regulations for Residential Districts , " and Section 18 . 50H (o) l , "Ground Sign and Message Board , " be denied for the following reasons and finding of fact : 1 . The Petitioner has not demonstrated that a practical difficulty exists . 2 . There ' s no precedent for electronic message boards for churches in the City of Livonia . 3 . Electronic message boards are not allowed in this particular zoning district . 4. A legislative issue exists with electronic message boards relative to the First Amendment . 5 . Denial of the variance is in the best interest of the City of Livonia . Henzi : There ' s a motion to deny by Mr . Baringhaus , supported by Mr . Pastor . Any discussion? Coppola : Mr . Chair. Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : Is there any willingness to if they want the ground sign be designed without the reader board to allow the excess? So in other words , either deny in part , approve in part? Henzi : To have a 34. 6 square foot sign with no reader board? Coppola : Yes . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 19 Pastor : That ' s not what they asked for . I don ' t think - - Coppola : Well , there ' s two - - Pastor : I don ' t think we should throw that in . We shouldn ' t negotiate with ourselves . Coppola : We ' re not negotiating . There ' s actually two . There ' s actually two - - Pastor : I will not support that . Schepis : I kind of think like they go hand in hand . If the church doesn ' t get a reader board , then they may come back and ask for more of an excess . They don ' t want to tie their hands by granting something like that that hasn ' t been considered . Henzi : That ' s a fair point . Coppola : They can always come back for more , but that ' s fine . I just offered it up . Henzi . Yeah . Schepis : We don ' t always look favorably when somebody comes back for more. I wouldn ' t want to prejudice . Coppola : Whether we deny or approve it in part , they' re coming back for more . But go ahead . I don ' t see what the difference is , but that ' s fine if everybody is not in support . I just thought I ' d offer that up in case they wanted to move forward with a more what I call modern sign , a little more attractive sign . Henzi : Yeah . I really have no problem with that , but I didn ' t hear anything from the Petitioner about it . Anything else? Please call the roll . Baringhaus : This is on the motion to deny. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Baringhaus , Pastor , Coppola , Henzi , Klisz , Pastor , Schepis NAYS: None ABSENT: Neville Henzi : Motion for a variance denied . Thank you for coming . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 20 Rev . McNulty: Thank you . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 21 APPEAL CASE NO. 2017-03-15: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Barrick Properties #40 , LLC , 4338 Delemere Blvd . , Royal , Oak, MI 48073 , seeking to remodel the interior of a fuel service facility along with building site modifications , resulting in deficient parking . Number of Parking Spaces: Required : 14 Proposed : 7 Deficient : 7 The property is located on the west side of Middlebelt (17151 ) , between Six Mile and Bobrich , Lot . No , 044-99-0057-000 , C-2 Zoning District . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543 , Section 11 . 03(a) and (12d) , "Waiver Uses ; Gasoline Service Station ; Parking and/or Storage. " Henzi : Mr . Hanosh , anything to add to this case? Hanosh : Not at this time , Mr. Chair . Henzi : Any questions for Mr . Hanosh? Hearing none , will you please come forward . Good evening . Choucair : Good evening . My name is Nasser Choucair . Coppola : Mr. Chair . Henzi : Mr. Coppola . Coppola, Just a real quick question for Mr . Hanosh . When I looked at the plans , the existing layout and the proposed , they both basically have the same number of spaces . Existing only has seven spaces right now. Was there a previous approval for the variance? Hanosh : I did not research that before as an existing condition , so I can ' t really answer you on that right now. I ' m sorry. Coppola : Okay. Baringhaus : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : Question for the Inspection Department : In the petition there ' s a reference to off-street parking , and I City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 22 was wondering how that applies considering that the property is basically at an intersection of Six Mile and Newburgh or Middlebelt , I believe. Hanosh : You ' re asking why they need off-street parking? Baringhaus : Yeah . Or how is that term used considering that the property really isn ' t conducive to off-street parking . Hanosh : It ' s also a - - it ' s based on square footage of the store also because it ' s a convenience store and they actually have sales , retail sales . So it ' s based on that , not just the fact that people are coming in to by gasoline . There ' s also the potential of people coming in there for any other product that they do sell within their own store that they have a right to do in that commercial district . Baringhaus : Thank you . Henzi : Any other questions? Okay . I ' m sorry . Can you state your name and address one more time? Choucair : My name is Nasser Choucair , 3241 South Telegraph , Dearborn 48124. Henzi : Go ahead and tell us about the renovation . Choucair : I do a lot of work in Livonia , and this is not my first gas station and project that I do . This site or this cross street is a unique site to me because 2005 , 2006 I did the strip mall across the street . I designed and build that strip mall . We took three buildings down , and we put that nice building and a strip mall . And from that time that gas station was there, the same use , the same way it is now. We come forward today to enhance that site , and this site is going to look really very modern site in terms of gas station , the way we' re putting the elements , the material that we' re using over there . And we ' re using the same footage that is in existing , I think a three-bay garage and C store, We ' re converting this gas station to a complete C store , and we serve fuel and like other gas station in term of coffee and grocery and other . If we look at the prospectus , that ' s the main focus of the design of the canopy and the building reflect to each other and that would - - I would be talking about a modern look of the site . Regarding the deficiency in parking , I know that parking for the gasoline it ' s not considered as a parking , but people City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 23 come to a gas station to fill gasoline , so they have an we have one , two , three , four, five pumps , so that ' s 10 car right there , and we have onsite another seven parking , so that would gives us about 17 . But I do know that the City does not consider under the canopy or where the pumps are as a parking . But also we have to consider that C stores I mean the occupancy , the load occupancy into the gas station never would exceed what we have under the canopy . I mean people come , fill gas and go. Not all the time they come out of their car and go into the C store. So we can guarantee that occupancy won ' t be over 14 in this gas station . Henzi : Mr . Choucair , have you built this proposed design before? Choucair : Yeah . I mean we did similar to it , not the same . We ' re doing also another one in Livonia , and I did couple gas station also in Livonia on Plymouth and Levan . We did one on Ann Arbor Trail and Ann Arbor Road . Henzi : I ' m just curious as to the design because it ' s very modern , it ' s very attractive . It looks good . I was just curious , do you think we ' ll see more like this? Choucair : Yeah . Henzi : Okay. Any questions for the Petitioner? Pastor : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor : Do you own this property? Are you the owner of this property? Choucair : No . I ' m NC Designers and Contracting . I ' m the designer and the contractor . Pastor : Okay. Because presently, this gas station parks cars from the business next door . I know that for a fact . So how are you going to - - what ' s going to happen there? Choucair: This gas station is sold to the new owner who is enhancing it . Barrick Oil , they sold the gas station , and this is where we stand and know that we need approval to start fixing this gas station and will make a better traffic flow in it so people won ' t park here and there . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 24 Pastor : So why do you need such a large C store for this site? This site - - I don ' t understand why you ' re building such a large store when you can downsize the store and get a couple more parking spots . Why you are building such a large store? I understand that there ' s several bays over there . Choucair : Gas stations , normally you go in and out . You get from the cooler a pop and you go out . You don ' t spend like more than two minutes or 60 seconds in there . Rarely you would see people like standing around there . You just fill gas , grab something and go . So that won ' t - - I mean be like an issue , as much as an issue if it ' s an auto repair that you leave your car all day there and you stack about 13 to 20 cars in there waiting for your - - if this is a busy place . So automotive , it ' s going to be more probably - - auto repair it ' s going to be more a problem than a C store . That ' s why the owner eliminated the repair , and he doesn ' t like to see the auto repair place in his gas station for a lot of reasons . Pastor : You didn ' t answer my question . Why do you need such a large C store? You ' re saying that you only go in there for a few minutes . If you ' re only going in there for a few minutes , you only need a few products , not a 20-door refrigerator . Choucair: Normally you would - - in a large C store you put all variety of choices for customers , so it ' s customer need . Whatever the customer wants , you go grab and go . So you ' re not going to eliminate most of the - - if you have like seven-door cooler , it ' s not going to be a lot of variety for the customer to get and grab and go. So when you put 11 -door cooler or 12-door cooler , you have more variety to pick and - - Pastor : I think I count 19 doors , 17 doors on this . So you can cut that down by a couple and still have a 12-door cooler . I mean why is this store so big? I ' m trying to get why are you making the store so big and not having enough parking? Choucair : I mean it ' s not - - I mean if you - - Pastor : You don ' t have enough parking . The issue is you don ' t have enough parking . Choucair : We don ' t have enough parking . I ' m with you . But you cannot consider that the gas station it ' s all used . You City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 25 have the cooler ; if it ' s 17 by eight , you cut - - I mean and the cashier area and the bathrooms , and look at the C store how big it is now. You eliminated most of the gas station with these storage areas that we have in there , and we ' re talking about the whole building still and the building is not used for customers . And like we ' re - - I mean if you ' re considering the whole square footage is a C store , Tit ' s not . It ' s a storage with bathrooms , the office , cooler, I mean still we are not using most of the gas station for the C store . And look at the gondolas . Normally if you go to a 7-11 they have 32 gondolas minimum they start or Speedway . This place have not even 10 - - I mean 10 , they have 10 , and probably they might take one out to spread them more . So this is not - - it is a long gas station . It looks big , but it ' s really narrow. It ' s not that big of a gas station comparing to the other one that we built before . Coppola : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : So when I look at the two plans existing and the new, are you just refurbishing the existing building , or is that going to be completely knocked down and - - Choucair : We ' re leaving the four walls . We ' re putting nice glass on the front and little on the side. Coppola : But it ' s the same four walls? Choucair . Exactly. The same walls we ' re using . All we ' re taking the roof out and we ' re making nice, funky. Coppola : How many parking spots does the existing site have? I see this site plan for existing shows seven or eight . Choucair : I ' m mean if I want to put whatever they have over there and the way they striped , I can ' t fit more than seven . But in a legit way and the right way , when you want to do parking , the way we put it , that ' s how it ' s supposed to be . But existing , it does not even comply with the code . It is an existing site , old site, and they stripe the parking the way they wanted even though we eliminated two approaches , the close one , and we put one on each side . Coppola : Would you be able to put - - I ' m not familiar with the limitations - - any parking on the east side that would City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 26 be parallel with - - parking parallel with the Middlebelt? I don ' t know what the clearance is supposed to from the canopy to the edge , but do you see what I ' m talking about? You can fit for four more cars in there , put four more spaces at least . Again , I don ' t know what the requirements are. Choucair : We always look at the traffic flow inside the site . Coppola: Right . Choucair: Sometimes when car parks around , it ' s really difficult to maneuver in the side. And we didn ' t want to take any of the landscaping because the City wants us to put some nice landscaping . Coppola : I wasn ' t suggesting moving the landscaping , but actually abutting the landscaping with some parking . Choucair : Yeah . I mean we can always fit parallel one , but that ' s not recommended as much as - - Coppola : But you could add four spots there probably? Choucair . Yeah . Henzi : Any other questions? Hearing none , is there anyone in the audience that wants to speak for or against the project? If so , c 'mon up. Can you read the letters? Baringhaus : I don ' t believe we have letters . Klisz : There is no letters . Henzi : Mr . Choucair , anything you want to say in closing , Mr . Choucair? Choucair : I mean . . . . Henzi : Thank you . I ' ll close the public portion of the case and being the Board ' s comments with Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : I agree with the assessment on the building , I think it ' s very well designed and definitely an upgrade to the area. In general , parking at this type of facility is very short-term ; stop in , grab one or two items and leave . I sort of question the number of spots in seven , and I like Mr. Coppola ' s idea of reworking the plan to get some additional , three or four spaces in there, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 27 One thing I ' ve noticed at operations like this , parking is a free for all . Anywhere there ' s an open space , if it ' s around the building , people put their cars there , any opportunity to park they ' ll put their cars there , so it can get a little out of the control especially not only due to that but due to the traffic for from the gas pumps as well . Ideally what I ' d like to see is probably another three to four spaces if that ' s possible I ' d probably be more in favor of this variance . At this time , I ' d really like to suggest that we table it so you have the opportunity to review and possibly redesign the parking at that location . Coppola : Mr. Chair . Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : When I look at the alternative here , in regard to let ' s say we deny it , and potentially you could move things around and add some parking compared to everything stays as is , this space needs to be upgraded . They ' re making it safer , they ' re taking away two entrances , they ' re down to only two entrances . It ' s a definite improvement , I believe an improvement for the City . I think it looks a lot better . I always question the parking requirements for the gas stations . Is seven needed? You can put 12 spots in where they have these seven spots , and everybody is still going to park in the front of the door and they' re going to park wherever they want to park. Push come to shove , I guess I can be in support of this . I would like - - I agree with Mr . Baringhaus that I would like you to see if we can squeeze a couple-few more spots in there. But in the long run it ' s your business , and when you don ' t have parking , reasonable parking , then people stop coming and then you don ' t have a business . So if you believe that you can run your business with what I ' ll call free type parking , there ' s not like there ' s no parking , I can be someone who supported this . Henzi : Mr, Klisz . Klisz : I agree . That was my thought too. If this is how you want it - - and I think definitely that the people that are going to come and pump gas and jump into this store , that ' s 10 people right there , 10 plus the seven equals 17 , and if it ' s too busy people are just going to move along . The existing building is no bigger , so they' re just kind of reconfiguring this . The landscaping I ' m sure was part of City Council ' s requirement . While I don ' t oppose the idea City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appea7s March 28, 2017 28 of having more , I think that I would approve it as is . Henzi : Mr . Schepis . Schepis : Yeah . I can also support this as it ' s presented . People come and go at gas stations pretty quickly. They park at pumps , and that ' s just how it ' s done . I don ' t , you know, view that as a safety issue - - not a safety issue . I don ' t view it as an issue like at a store where people are parking for an extended period of time and taking up a spot for more than a few minutes . So I would support this as presented . Henzi : Mr. Pastor , Pastor : I will not support this as presented . I think there' s a better plan out there . I think the Petitioner is fully capable of designing a better plan . I ' ve waited for people that sat , got out of their car and spent 20 minutes inside of one of those C stores and there was no place I could go to because I either have a trailer on the back of my vehicle or something like that . They need the right amount of parking for these stores . It ' s not uncommon to have someone go inside a store for 20 or 30 minutes and not come out , so I ' ll not be in support of this . I ' d be in favor of tabling the motion . Henzi : I would approve it . Quite honestly , I think that what ' s being proposed is not much more than what exists today. I would like to see more spots , but the problem I have with that is they would be moved so far away , I ' m worried about some teenager parking and backing into somebody . I think the way that it is is fine . A lot of thought went into it . I would approve it as is . So floor is open for motion . Klisz : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Klisz . Upon Motion by Klisz and supported by Schepis , it was : RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2017-03-15: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Barrick Properties #40 , LLC , 4338 Delemere Blvd . , Royal , Oak, MI 48073 , seeking to remodel the interior of a fuel service facility along with building site modifications , resulting in deficient parking . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appea]s March 28, 2017 29 Number of Parking Spaces: Required : 14 Proposed : 7 Deficient : 7 The property is located on the west side of Middlebelt (17151 ) , between Six Mile and Bobrich , Lot . No . 044-99-0057-000 , C-2 Zoning District . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543 , Section 11 . 03(a) and (12d) , "Waiver Uses ; Gasoline Service Station ; Parking and/or Storage , " be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact : 1 . The uniqueness requirement is met because of the already existing shortness of parking . 2 . Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner because it would impact their business and thwart a renovation which is both needed and attractive. 3 . The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because there ' s been no objections by neighbors , and the proposal is similar to what ' s already there . 4. The property is classed as General Commercial under the Master Plan , and the proposed variance is not Inconsistent with that classification . FURTHER, This variance is granted with the following conditions : 1 . The property be built pursuant to the approval of the City Council and the Planning Commission . ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Coppola , Henzi , Klisz , Schepis NAYS: Baringhaus , Pastor ABSENT: Neville Henzi : Variance is granted with that one condition we ' ve incorporated the City Council and Planning Commission requirements . Good luck to you . Choucair : Take care . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 30 APPEAL CASE N0. 2017-03-16: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by MH1 Investments , LLC, 17197 N . Laurel Park, Suite 340 , Livonia , MI 48152 , seeking to erect a single family dwelling upon property, resulting in deficient lot area and lot width . Lot Area : Required : 0 .50 acres (21 , 780 sq . ft . ) Proposed/Existing : 0 . 37 acres (16 , 117 sq . ft . ) Deficient : 0 . 13 acres ( 5, 663 sq . ft . ) Lot Width : Required : 65. 0 ft . Proposed/Existing 62 . 5 ft . Deficient : 2 . 5 ft The property is located on the east side of Merriman Court (19624) , between Seven Mile and Pembroke , Lot . No . 007-99-0046-000 , RUF-A Zoning District . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543 , Section 5 . 04 , "Minimum Lot Size . " Henzi : Mr . Hanosh , anything to add to this case? Hanosh : Not at this time , Mr. Chair . Henzi : Any questions for Mr . Hanosh? Good evening . Can you introduce yourselves , please? Stapleton : Tim Stapleton . Kalis : And my name is Mike Kalis . I ' m a partner in MH1 . Henzi : Can you state your addresses , please? Stapleton : 614 Troy Avenue , Royal Oak, Michigan . Kalis : 9239 Silverside in South Lyon . Henzi : Go ahead . Tell us about the project . Stapleton : As you ' re well aware , it ' s a single-family lot , and we ' re looking to get the 2 . 5 variance in over the 5 , 000 square foot area variance . Looking at Merriman Court here , give or take a few lots , there ' s 54 sites on that street . Currently 30 of those sites don ' t meet the current zoning that we ' re looking for the variance from . And out of those 30 , 10 of those lots have become - - have come up in front of ZBA board and been approved for the variance . So we think City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 31 it ' s valuable and it ' ll add to the neighborhood and we think it ' s - - we should be able to get this variance . Henzi : Looking at the data you have in front of you , how many of the 10 that you say were approved by the Zoning Board were only 62 . 5 feet wide lots? Stapleton : That - - I don ' t have that information . I know they ' re between 60 and 62 . 5 though , the variance. Henzi : Say again . Stapleton : They ' re 60 or 62 , 5 out of those 10 . I don ' t know which ones were sixties and I don ' t know which ones are 62 . 5 . Henzi : You ' re saying all of them? Stapleton : Yes . Henzi : That ' s what I was asking . Stapleton : Yeah . I ' m sorry . Henzi : Any questions for the Petitioner? Coppola : Mr . Chair, Henzi : Mr . Coppola , Coppola: Of those 10 lots you named , how many of them have garages encroaching on their property by point-nine feet? Stapleton : I imagine none of them. But the encroachment , as you ' re well aware , this was tabled before . The easement was given to me in good faith of that , as you ' re well aware , of 4.5 over . We gave them the easement versus going and asking them to remove it from the property . Henzi : I wasn ' t here the last time , and I think it was - - Pastor : It was tabled . Henzi : I think it was tabled . Stapleton : It was tabled . It was originally October 16th last year. Coppola : It was tabled . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 32 Henzi : Is there a motion to remove from the table? Pastor: Mr . Chair . Baringhaus : Support . Henzi : Mr . Pastor , supported by Baringhaus . All in favor say , "Aye . " Board Members : Aye . Henzi : This is an unusual scenario . Can you tell me how it is that we ' ve got this lot split with a garage in the side yard? Stapleton : I ' m coming in - - and Mike , maybe you know. Kalis : Yeah . I can give you - - so I mean first of all , I own Marketplace Homes . It ' s a company in Livonia , and we ' ve got 100 employees . We ' re about a mile from this lot . It came up , we just thought it was a nice lot . Honestly it was for sale , we probably didn ' t figure out where the garage was once we purchased it . And when we found that out , it appeared as though the neighbor had built the garage . So we chatted with her , and then we got an easement . The idea was she gave us the easement , then we ' d be able to build something , and we kind of thought that was going to be the direction that it would go . I don ' t know if that helps answer your question or not . Henzi : Do you have a buyer? Kalis : Oh , an end buyer? Henzi : Do you have a buyer? Kalis : For the property? Well , that would either be myself or someone in our office that would live in the home . It ' s only about a mile from where we work. Henzi : You bought this half of the lot from the existing homeowner with the garage , right? Kalis : No , no . It was just an individual party that owned the property that was selling just the lot . Henzi : When was this split? If you know. Decades ago? Kalis : A very long time ago . We ' ve only owned it for less than a year . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appears March 28, 2017 33 Coppola : Mr. Chair . Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : Did you not do a survey before you purchased the property? Kalis : You are correct . Coppola : You did not , and so you did not also get any type of title insurance to protect yourselves from this type of issue? Kalis : There might be title insurance. I ' m not sure. I ' d have to look into that . Coppola : If there wasn ' t a survey , there wouldn ' t be title insurance most likely . Normally title companies don ' t give out title insurance without a survey, How long has the - - to your knowledge , how long has the garage existed in this location? Kalis : Before we purchased it . Coppola : That ' s not what I was asking . I was asking time wise . Is it five years , is it 10 years or you don ' t know? Kalis : I honestly don ' t know. Coppola : If you had to hazard a guess , what would your guess be? Kalis : A while . Coppola : To your knowledge , were these two lots owned by the same person at one point in time? Kalis : I ' m not sure . Baringhaus : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr , Baringhaus . Baringhaus : As I recall , a lot of the discussion focused on where the home was going to be located on the lot ; a lot of concern about the 100-foot setback. Has that been rethought or reconsidered? Stapleton : The setbacks can be all adjusted based on if you City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 34 give us the variance of the 62 . 5 . Originally , I looked back and it was a larger house . Then we can - - if the garage is a concern , it was a 40-foot house , we can always adjust the house and make the house less wide to make that variance go away in regards to the garage and still staying 10 feet away from the garage . Because if you look at the original it ' s 4. 5 but they used the measurement off the back of the garage of the easement . All the original was 10 feet ; it met all of the requirements of the side yards with the exception of the easements . Schepis : Mr. Chair. Henzi : Mr . Schepis . Schepis : Has anything changed? Have you changed your plan since the last meeting? Stapleton : No , because we haven ' t had any approval , so based on this we ' ll change our plans . Because right now we ' re looking for the variance of the 62 . 5 and the 5 , 000 square feet in the sense of lot coverage . From that , we ' ll go and we ' ll design the house that meets that requirement . Schepis : But you don ' t have - - you ' re not proposing a specific place on this lot to locate the house or a specific design? Stapleton : We will based on this approval , yes . We ' ll meet all the setback requirements based off of that . Your current setbacks are 10 , 10 side . We ' ll meet your rear setbacks and we ' ll meet your front yard setbacks . Pastor : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor : So you ' re going to meet the 50-foot front yard setback? Stapleton : Yes , we will . Pastor : So you ' re not going to build a house where originally you had in the back of your neighbors ' houses? Stapleton : We ' ll meet the 50 - - Pastor : I ' m asking you a question . I ' m asking you a direct question . Are you building this house in back of your neighbors ' houses? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of appeals March 28, 2017 35 Stapleton : Right now we have not set the house right now because we don ' t know if we ' re going to get this approval or not . Once we get the approval , we ' ll meet all the setbacks requirement of your Building Department . Pastor: Mr. Chair . Mr . Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor: T think he ' s avoiding the question due to the fact that he ' s saying he ' s going to meet the setback requirement , he ' s going to be greater than the 50 feet , so he ' s going to put the house in back of these other houses . Henzi : I agree . When I read the minutes , there were significant discussion about whether you were going to line the house up, right? There was a discussion about we don ' t want a street with mismatched front yard setbacks . And you ' re not answering the question about - - you are saying , " I ' m going to meet the setback. " Really what ' s being asked is , "Are you going to line it up with all the other houses?" Stapleton : If that is what the requirement , we ' ll meet the requirement . Henzi : Any other questions? Baringhaus : Mr . Chair. Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : If you do go to the 50-foot front yard setback though , isn ' t that going to put that structure literally right up against that garage that ' s existing on the back? Stapleton : What we ' ll have to do is go with a smaller house than we originally planned . Schepis : Mr. Chair. Henzi : Mr . Schepis? Schepis : I ' m sorry. Are you done? Baringhaus : Yes . Schepis : I asked you specifically about that the last time you were here , whether you ' d be willing to consider another design . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 36 Stapleton : Excuse me. I wasn ' t here last time . I apologize. Schepis : Your representative . Stapleton : Right . Schepis : I asked that specific question , and I don ' t think it was ever answered and I ' m curious . Are you saying that you would design a building - - or a house that would fit on this lot lined up with the other houses on the street in meeting the setback requirements for the garage? Stapleton : Yes . Schepis : Okay. Thank you . Henzi : Any other questions? Hearing none , is there anyone else in the audience who would like to speak for or against the project? If so , c ' mon up one by one . (Discussion amongst audience members . ) Henzi : You got to come up , introduce yourself. When you speak, tell us your name and address . Sir , you can be first . We ' ll make sure we get through everybody , but if you need to sit you can sit . Mr . McCulloch : That ' s okay . My name is Chris McCulloch . I live at 19582 Merriman Court . The property immediately south of this . And first of all , that property doesn ' t meet the minimum lot area or the lot width right off the bat , so it should be denied . This thing should have never happened in the first place . It was no one checking for surveys and stuff like that , so this is the end result and it ' s not well . The garage does protrude from the north onto it like five feet or so , I guess , to about 20 feet the length of it , and that ' s going to make for a dwelling position - - the property that ' s not quite right . And if we look from the road , it ' s going to be too far back. And even if it meets the setback, it ' s going to be too close to the garage of 19630 . And the worst thing is that if it does have to be pushed farther back where the property lines do go out north beyond the garage of 19630 it ' s going to position the house farther back, but then at my house it ' s going to put a house right alongside the north side of my backyard . So I come out my City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 37 back door , instead of seeing a yard , I ' m going to see the side of a house . That ' s my biggest gripe right there. Now across the street there ' s a Joe Galante about three or four houses down , and he built a beautiful home and he lives in it . He wasn ' t allowed to move that thing around the lot . He had to be within so many feet of his neighbor ' s fronts and all that . And there was a garage issue there and you guys wouldn ' t let him - - well , I can ' t say that . He wasn ' t allowed to have - - he wasn ' t allowed to keep another garage on it because there' s no way to get to it , so it really is pretty important . And for the aesthetics of the neighborhood , I thinks it ' s important so it doesn ' t look like there ' s anything crammed in there . So the people across the street would have the worst fare of this by looking at it all the time. So for these reasons , I ' m totally against it . Henzi : Mr . McCulloch , did you say your address? I ' m sorry. Mr . McCulloch : It ' s 19582 Merriman Court . The property immediately south of this . Henzi : Thank you . Mr . McCulloch : Who is next? Ms . McCulloch : Hi . I ' m Connie McCulloch . I ' m at 19582 Merriman Court as well . I just wanted to add that the dimensions on this sheet - - I don ' t even know if this should be heard because I don ' t think the lot size that ' s specified on this sheet is even accurate . Henzi : Mr. Hanosh , do you have an opinion on that? Hanosh : We ' re going off the plot plan that was given to us at 62. 5 feet wide , so if that ' s incorrect it ' s something that was supplied to us as the Inspection Department and we ' re going off that , and also the length when we calculate out our lot sizes . Henzi : You wouldn ' t go out in the field and measure , would you? Hanosh : No , we would not . Henzi : But you ' re relying on the application? Hanosh : Yes . And then once - - if this did get approved , we City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 38 would actually have to have a survey and it would go through my Engineering Department and everything would be staked off properly and actually with the precision that it needs . Henzi : Let ' s say for the sake of argument it was approved ; a survey is done and it ' s 58 feet wide . What happens then? Hanosh : I have not seen things off four to five feet on a survey . I would hope this was done more correctly , but that could be a factor. Henzi : What if it was 61 ? Hanosh : There is some margin of error ; there ' s a possibility of that . I would have to agree on that . Henzi : I ' ve never seen that situation , but I mean would you let it go forward or you would make them come back? Hanosh : That ' s the Board ' s decision , not mine , as Inspection Department , They would still have to meet the required setbacks on 10 feet on each side , 50 in the front or 50 in the back or whatever the Board would deem it or whatever they grant . Pastor : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor: Our last meeting I distinctly remember the Petitioner telling us that he deeded over five or six feet of the garage and driveway - - I thought and driveway - - Ms . McCulloch : That ' s correct . Pastor : - - to the next door neighbor, so that means this survey is not correct . Stapleton : Excuse me . It wasn ' t deeded , it was easement granted , which is totally different . Pastor : Still does not make this correct . Henzi : Do you agree though that that - - that ' s your point , that it ' s 62 . 5 but there ' s an easement of four to five feet? Stapleton : Yeah . And the proper - - and granted I was not here and I apologize for that , but they ' re basing the setback side yards on an easement , and you can ' t do that . It ' s the side yard of the lot , not an easement . Mike here City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appea7s March 28, 2017 39 was nice enough to give the easement to them , but that ' s not the lot line . The lot line is the 62 . 5 . We granted an easement to allow this person to keep their garage there that shouldn ' t be on the lot , and we ' re trying to work around that garage easement to make sure the house fits in conjunction with all the other neighbors ' homes . Pastor : Mr. Chair. Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor : But that easement is not just a line on a piece of paper. There ' s actually brick and mortar in that easement and we have to take that into consideration . There ' s brick and mortar . There ' s a side of a garage there . That ' s not like it ' s a piece of grass . Stapleton . If you want to go that route , that ' s fine, we' ll stay 10 feet off that easement then . We still can build a house off that . If that ' s what you guys wish us to do , we' ll do that . Henzi : Hang on , Connie . We ' ll come back. Do you agree with that point though? That - - I mean this is not a utility line easement . There ' s a garage there . Kalis : I do , and maybe I just say in fairness we thought a good solution was to work out an easement . There were a lot of weirder angles we could have talked through with the neighbor . We hoped that would be like the really peaceful , amicable way to just kind of make everything work. Henzi : That ' s fair . I ' m just trying to make sure you understand the point that what we ' re considering , which is that I can see that there ' s an easement , but it ' s not just a row of trees . Kalis : It ' s true . I just think it ' s a little disingenuous if we give them an easement , then they say , "Well , now I also don ' t want your house to be close to the easement that that you just gave us . " Henzi : That a fair point . Fisher: Mr . Chair , can I just address this? Henzi : Mr. Fisher. Fisher: Just so we ' re clear , what the ordinance says about side yards is that they don ' t have structures in them. So City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 40 the ordinance , independently of whether it ' s an easement or what , because there is a structure there you have to measure your side yard from the structure. Stapleton : That ' s fine . We ' ll meet those requirements . Henzi : Okay . Back to the speaker . Go ahead . Ms . McCulloch : So that was my concern . And if they were to meet those requirements and go - - we ' ll say 10 feet in from Amy ' s garage and 10 foot in from our fence , based on what we could visually see , it ' s going to leave them like a 30-foot wide house , and that seems like it ' s going to be quite crammed in that little space if they do anything bigger . And if they set it back, all of our privacy is gone . I mean Amy would walk out her back door and see a house. We would go out our back door and look at a house in the yard . So that ' s really our main concern is this curb appeal is going to - - is not going to look good , I mean I understand if it was normal 62 . 50 , we ' ve had other people do it and they ' ve fit a nice sized home in there and it looks fine , it ' s the right setback. But I think that with this zigzag like layout of the garage going back into the yard , I think that it ' s going to not look good at all . Henzi : Thank you . Anybody else coming up? Joaquin : My name is Amy Joaquin . I ' m at 19630 Merriman Court , north side garage easement , all that happy stuff . I ' m not sure why, but the property actually went Pending yesterday . So you said that you don ' t have a buyer? Henzi : You can ' t have a conversation with him on the record . Joaquin : Oh , okay . Well , I ' m sorry. It went Pending yesterday. They said that they don ' t have a buyer . I don ' t understand that . Henzi : What are you trying to say? There ' s a sale pending? Joaquin : Yes . Henzi : Okay. Joaquin : This MLS I printed today : I checked yesterday at five o ' clock, it was not Pending , it was still Inactive property . Now it ' s Pending . On their disclosures , they do have written on there that there is a , "Neighbor garage City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 41 encroaching . " My understanding is from the last meeting - - which was Vince , the actual real estate agent on this , he was the one that showed up - - he was stating that the property line - - the way that it goes - - because my garage is on their property line , their property line goes directly through my garage. So when they build their fence , that ' s what I ' m curious about . When they build this fence to build this in , where is my side yard? Where do I have any property to get to the back of my yard and - - I just I don ' t under - - if there ' s that four-foot variance that I have to have for a side yard , where is that? Even if they bring this house forward , there is absolutely no way that I would have one. If they take it back, even if they - - because what Vince had stated was it was going to be 16 feet behind the existing fence . The existing fence lines up with their house and the back of my garage . I have got pictures I can show them . There is a very large tree 16 feet exactly behind that fence . That ' s where their house would begin and go back. The privacy from Dale ' s house, their house , my house and the people that rent - - I forget their names - - they ' re losing all of their property or all their privacy if it has to be setback that far. So I don ' t - - I was supposed to - - Vince had promised me that he was going to be sending me the new plans that you guys had suggested he reconfigure . I haven ' t gotten those . And I object because I ' m not going to have an - - I will not be able to get in the backyard on that side at all . I have even asked if I got like a two-foot variance with the easement , if I was going to get that , and I never got an answer on that either. I want - - I would like to be explained to me - - I have even a little map - - as to where my fence and my side yard would be . Henzi : I ' ll make sure that they address that . Joaquin : Okay. Coppola : Mr. Chair , Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Wait , hang on . Coppola : Probably rehashing some stuff that was discussed last time that was at the last meeting . How long have you owned this home? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 42 Joaquin : Five years . Coppola : When you purchased the home , did you have a survey done? Joaquin : No. Coppola : When did you become aware that your garage was not fully on your property? Joaquin : Well , I became aware that my fenced-in house that I bought wasn ' t actually one property shortly after because the taxes - - Coppola : Shortly after what? I ' m sorry . Joaquin : After we had purchased it the taxes were due on that lot . That ' s how we found out . I tried to find the homeowner , Peggy , for years to purchase it from her because she was behind in taxes . She lost both of them at the same time . I didn ' t know that that empty lot - - well , she paid the taxes , I think it was for 18 months after that on the empty lot . So that ' s why I had to wait for that to come up for auction , and I fully intended on buying it there . But John Lezotte apparently found Peggy . Coppola : Who did you by the house from? Joaquin : I purchased it from my mom. My mom purchased it from a foreclosure, Coppola : Thank you . Henzi : Thank you . Joaquin : Is that it then? Henzi : Yes . Who ' s next? Tamer : My name is Jason Tamer . I live at 19555 Merriman Court , directly across the street from the lot here . Some of the things you guys have already covered was the same thing that came up in conversation about the six feet . This proposal is it ' s 52 . 5 and a half feet . Six feet of that 62 . 5 has been given in easement that goes right through this lady ' s garage that just stepped down from here . That makes the lot 56 . 5 feet wide and then a 19-foot offset on both sides . That ' s your guys saying is the rule. So I just City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appears March 28, 2017 43 want to clarify that . That was the point I wanted to make before they all made it . I appreciate your time . Henzi : Thank you . C' mon up . Poster : My name is Susan Poster . I live at 18935 Milburn Street , Livonia , Michigan , and I ' m Amy' s mother . I purchased the property originally from the bank. I did not have a survey done because I bought it from the bank in a foreclosure . I bought it as is . We got the house and the landscaping the way it was . It clearly looked like it ' s all one piece of property just like it still looks like, there ' s a split rail fence on each of the corners on the front of the property . And we just thought it was a beautiful lot . It ' s a big , wide lot just like most of the ones on that street . And then like Amy said , once the tax thing came in it was like , "Wait a minute . What happened here?" So we tried to purchase it . I went to the title company that handled the sale when I bought it through the bank, and they told me that it should be all one piece of property and it should all have gone together . And then I - - no . I came to City Hall here, and that ' s what they told me here . So then I contacted the title company , and they said no , it ' s a separate piece of property because when the woman who owned the property had taken out a loan , she only took a loan on part of it for some reason with the house and she lost it . But that garage was built with the house I think 1940 something , so the garage has been there a little longer than before he bought it . So we tried to buy it . We wanted to buy that piece of property . We looked high and low for this woman . Then it went into collections , it went into foreclosure . I called down to Wayne County Treasurer ' s office myself several times , spoke with several different people about it . I said , "Is there a way that I can get it?" They said if I could find her, buy it from her for back taxes , but I couldn ' t find her. Then it went into foreclosure, and then they said , "No . You have to wait for it to come up for auction . " So we diligently watched the auction rolls until somebody knocks on my daughter' s door and said , " I bought that piece of property. " And it ' s like - - it feels like it was stolen out from under us . It really does . And then to have them want to change the format of the street and the houses , it ' s just wrong . We would still like to purchase that property. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 44 We would still like that property , and we ' re willing to give them a little bit more than the eight grand they paid for it , but not what they' re asking . It ' s crazy . So anyway , that ' s it . Henzi : Thank you . Any questions? Coppola : Mr. Chair . Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : Couple questions . For clarity purposes , you did not build that garage after you purchased the property? Poster: No . It was built . Coppola : It was existing? Poster: As far as we can tell , it was built with the house back in the 1940s . (Indistinct comments from audience . ) Coppola : Had you ever gone back to the bank to see if you could get the original mortgage documentation to see what was actually mortgaged and which lots were included in that mortgage? I find it highly unlikely the bank would have provided a mortgage without a survey and known that it was giving a loan on a piece of property that wasn ' t fully on the property that had a lien on . Poster . No . I never - - Coppola : Have you gone back to the bank? Poster : I never thought to go back to the bank. At this point , I don ' t even know who the bank was . I gave Amy all the paperwork when it was completely sold over to her. She has all the paperwork. I don ' t think she has that . What was the bank? Was it Bank One? Joaquin : I don ' t know. Henzi : Amy , can you come back up? Poster . Amy , Come back up . Joaquin : I ' ve gone through the title work from when it was in foreclosure when she purchased it because she bought it cash , and then I mortgaged it from her . My title company City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 45 went through too . I got the mortgage , what , a year and a half before all this happened . And at that time even I talked to couple of people , different - - down at the City Hall , couple of different attorneys as well because I wanted to know if that structure was original . I wanted to know what I was getting into since I couldn ' t find Peggy to purchase it from her . So I did my due diligence at that point trying to figure out anything about it . That ' s how I know it was original to the structure because I talked to Bill , their attorney , about it and another. Coppola: Have you thought to retain counsel to actually do a proper - - research this and figure out whether you actually - - through your purchase from the bank actually purchased that lot? Joaquin : No . What do you mean? I ' ve talked to an attorney , Bill Ward . You mean have him go back when my mom originally purchased it? Coppola: Look at the documentation . Again , I find it very hard to believe that a bank would give a mortgage on property that wasn ' t fully on its property . So it would have done a survey - - Poster : Oh . So you ' re going all the way back from 1995 when she took out her loan? Coppola : Right . Anyway, just wanted to be clear - - Joaquin . Okay. It was all favorable - - okay. No . Both properties have always been maintained and owned by the same people . There was a family before Rose and Peggy , a man and a wife and their four kids . They moved out , Rose and Peggy moved in , they lived there for 30 some odd years , they got foreclosed on , that ' s when it happened . But both lots have always been owned by the same people. Poster : Until I got it . Joaquin . Right . And that ' s where I had a leg to stand on as far as adverse possession and everything else. Coppola : Thank you . Joaquin : You ' re welcome . Henzi : Anybody else? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appea]s March 28, 2017 46 Dale : Yeah . I live at 19607 Merriman Court . Henzi : Your name , please? Dale : My name is Larry Dale . I ' ve been there 50 years in that house . They pretty much said it all with their privacy and the house being way back where it shouldn ' t be . The house shouldn ' t be built there is what I ' m saying , you know. I don ' t think these guys are going to live there after they build it . Would you? Kalis : Well - - Henzi : Hang on . You can ' t have a conversation with them . Dale : Right . I guess that ' s all I have to say, Isn ' t there a limit how far back off the road you can build? Henzi : There are setback requirements , yes . Dale : What did he say? Joaquin : "Yes . There are setback requirements , " Larry. (Indistinct comments from audience . ) Joaquin : Yes , there are setback requirements . That ' s what they ' re here for . He lives directly across the street , so he will look directly at this , and he ' s worried about it being behind the fence . Right? Dale : Yeah . All the houses are in line there . I look out my window, it ' s a nice two empty lots there . Deer come across there. Henzi : Thank you . Anybody else? Dale : Thank you . Henzi : Can you read the letters? Baringhaus : A letter of objection , Larry Dale , 19607 Merriman Court . (Letter read . ) Letter of objection , Joe Galante , 19515 Merriman Court , Livonia , Michigan , (Letter read . ) Letter of objection , Kristina Schenk, 19595 Merriman Court . (Letter read . ) Letter of objection , Christopher McCulloch , 19582 Merriman Court . (Letter read . ) Letter of objection , Kaitlyn Joaquin , 19630 Merriman Court . (Letter read . ) Letter of objection , Amy Joaquin , 19630 Merriman City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 47 Court . (Letter read . ) Henzi : Thanks . Gentlemen , you have the opportunity for a closing statement . If you could make sure to address the one question about how the adjoining neighbor would get to the back of their yard . Stapleton : Okay . The easement was created for her to go on the other lot . Why that wasn ' t discussed in the original easements , I don ' t understand . And we cannot possibly put an easement all the way back to the back of the rear of the yard . So I ' d suggest that what she would have to do is - - we can ' t give her that easement to get to her back of the yard from her garage ; you would have to go other ways . I mean any way around there - - I think we ' ve been pretty kind in giving her the easement into the yard . To give her easement to go from that , we just don ' t have the ability to do that because we have to take into consideration the people that are going to be living in this home . Henzi : Anything else? Kalis : Well , I think on my side , I just want to say - - I mean it ' s interesting to hear everybody talk and we kind of say , "Oh , jeez . We forgot to do a survey, " and maybe they forgot to do some of the same things . Historically , that kind of stings . So we ' re just asking for a small variance . It ' s a couple feet off to be able to build on . It ' s interesting because the home to the north that spoke had a similar variance granted to them when they first built the home , and the home across the street that Larry lives in had a variance granted to him when it was built . And maybe they were just done a long time ago , but when you go down the street , there ' s practically a dozen homes that have a similar variance to what we ' re requesting . We ' re trying to do the right thing with the neighbors to just kind of give them an easement and keep the garage there and sort of respect that it was built a long time ago . We didn ' t think anyone intentionally built on the lot . And then when we purchased the lot , we actually bought it off the MLS , not at any tax auction or anything . It had been listed for months . And I ' m sure if the neighborhood really wanted to keep it , we ' d certainly entertain offers to take it . And I really appreciate you guys considering it . Our goal is to hopefully get a yes vote for the variance . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 48 Henzi : Thank you , I ' ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board ' s comments with Mr . Baringhaus . Oh , were you next , Mr. Coppola? Coppola : I was next . Henzi : Sorry. Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : Well , this is definitely an interesting one. I think when you referenced the other variances , again , while they were based on width and area , they don ' t have the issue of this encroachment which creates a very unique situation . And I would have to say mostly you guys are professionals . Shame on you . You should have done your homework, you should have gotten a survey , you should have known the encroachment was there , and I bet you would have run from this property as fast as you could if you had known that . I don ' t see how you can build on this lot , because from my perspective there ' s a 10-foot setback. That setback is supposed to be for both structures on both sides of the lot , so that ' s a 20-foot setback theoretically from the encroachment . I don ' t see how you can build a home on that lot when you lop off 20 feet from it to kind of meet the requirements . I just don ' t deem this really a buildable lot . I think something would have to be resolved to make it a buildable lot , and at this point I just can ' t be in support of this . Henzi : Mr . Klisz . Klisz : I agree . I think that , again , we look at hardship, we look at the ability to make more money , and we ' re supposed to consider the first one , of which I don ' t see . And then the fact that if you can build on it it ' s worth money, but if you can ' t build on it it ' s not . That ' s not our concern . The uniqueness is the structure that is overlapping . And again , to fit it correctly , it ' s going to be too small and impractical , and if you put it back too far , that ' s inappropriate for the rest of the neighborhood . So I would not be in support . Henzi : Mr. Schepis . Schepis : Yeah . I also can ' t support this as presented for a lot of the reasons that have been stated . I have a little bit of a hard time with it because I do think you tried to City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 49 do the right thing by granting an easement � - Kalis : Can we get the easement back? Schepis : - - but that ' s kind of left a situation where just � - I can ' t imagine putting a house on that spot . I don ' t see how it would work. And I think your request tonight , even beyond that , is just for a variance without any description of what would end up there and where it would be , and I just can ' t support that . Henzi : Mr. Pastor . Pastor : Well , I would agree . Normally, I ' d be up there fighting for this lot saying it ' s a plotted lot , split , not a problem . But the problem is there is a building partially on this lot . Number two, I find the Petitioner a little disingenuous by saying , " I ' ll meet the setback requirement , " knowing that he can go further back, you just can ' t go you can ' t go - - you cannot go 45 feet back , but you can go 100 feet back. I found that very disingenuous , so I cannot at all support this . I told the Petitioners last time we were here , and I don ' t believe it was these two , that they should talk to the neighbor , see what they can work out with the neighbor . They chose not to do so , so there ' s nothing more I can say . I ' m do not support this . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus , Baringhaus : I think a lot of the discussion is being focused on the actual full lot width . However , I think the main problem is the lot is simply too small . You move the house too far back, you ' re encroaching on people ' s property , you move it too far forward , the house isn ' t lining up with the rest of the neighborhood and staying to within the characteristics of the neighborhood . You move the house to the side , it ' s encroaching on a neighbor' s garage . A lot of reasons why this lot definitely is not workable , not to mention the fact that there is a structure currently overlapping both pieces of property . Generally , no neighbor support that all . At this point , I ' m not in support of the variance . Henzi : Yeah , I ' m not either . And to Mr . Pastor' s point , we routinely tell developers that they ' re welcome to build because it ' s a plotted lot . It was split , it might have been split 50 years ago , and that ' s to the chagrin a lot of City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 50 times to some neighbors . The problem here is that this isn ' t just an empty lot backing up to some trees . It ' s a lot where there is a structure , and it ' s unfair to spring a house that now two neighbors are going to walk out their back yard and they ' re going to look at a house instead of another backyard . And do not ever , on your next deal , alter your property rights without a contingency of getting the deal all the way over the goal line , because now you ' re in a real pickle . Kalis : I think you ' ve see my kindness , and I win there , right? Even if I lose a lot of money . The neighbors appreciate it . I mean , hey , you know. Dale : It ' s all about money . Henzi : I don ' t know how you ' re going to sell it now. dust a word to the wise . Kalis : I understand . Thank you . Expensive lesson . Henzi : Okay. So floor ' s open for motion . Baringhaus : Mr . Chairman . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Upon Motion by Baringhaus and supported by Pastor , it was : RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2017-03-16: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by MH1 Investments , LLC, 17197 N . Laurel Park, Suite 340 , Livonia , MI 48152 , seeking to erect a single family dwelling upon property , resulting in deficient lot area and lot width . Lot Area : Required : 0 .50 acres (21 , 780 sq . ft . ) Proposed/Existing : 0 . 37 acres (16 , 117 sq . ft . ) Deficient : 0 . 13 acres ( 5 , 663 sq . ft . ) Loft Width : Required : 65 . 0 ft . Proposed/Existing 62 . 5 ft . Deficient : 2. 5 ft . The property is located on the east side of Merriman Court (19624) , between Seven Mile and Pembroke , Lot . No . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 51 007-99-0046-000 , RUF-A Zoning District . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543 , Section 5 . 04 , "Minimum Lot Size , " be denied for the following reasons and findings of fact : 1 . The Petitioner has not demonstrated that a practical difficulty exists . 2 . The lot size and width cannot support the size of the structure . 3 . The opposition/lack of support from the surrounding neighbors , and the fact that the proposed structure is out of character with the neighborhood make denial necessary . 4. Denial of the variance is in the best interest of the City of Livonia. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Baringhaus , Pastor , Klisz , Schepis , Coppola , Henzi NAYS: None ABSENT: Neville Henzi : Variance is denied . Thank you very much . Stapleton : Can I ask you one thing? It ' s on the placement of the home you denied us , is what I just heard on that scenario? Pastor : We denied this petition . Henzi : The variance . Stapleton : But you also did it on the placement of the home . That ' s what I just heard? Henzi : You were seeking to erect a house and we said no . Stapleton : And the placement of it . Thank you very much . Kalis : Thank you . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appea7s March 28, 2017 52 APPEAL CASE NO. 2017-03-17: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Robert Tomanovich , 20301 Purlingbrook, Livonia, MI 48152 , seeking to maintain an addition to a detached garage , erected without a permit , which results in excess detached garage area . The existing shed will be removed . Detached Garage Area : Allowed : 720 sq . ft . Proposed/Existing : 1 , 044 sq . ft . Excess : 324 sq . ft . The property is located on the west side of Purlingbrook (20301 ) , between Pembroke and Eight Mile , Lot . No. 006-99-0012-000 , RUF-A Zoning District . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543 , Section 2 . 10(5) , "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms ; Garage , Private . " Henzi : Mr. Hanosh , anything to add to this case? Hanosh : Not at this time , Mr. Chair. Henzi : Any questions for the Inspection Department? Good evening . Can you tell us your names and address , please? Mr . Tomanovich ; Robert Tomanovich , 20301 Purlingbrook. Ms . Tomanovich : Lindy Tomanovich . Henzi : Mr . and Ms . Tomanovich , tell us about the garage that you ' d like to build . Mr . Tomanovich : well , I know I did it without a permit , and I did build it all to code. It ' s all done properly . I didn ' t actually think it would be much of a deal because - - I guess I should have checked into it more , but I had plenty of land there . It ' s kind of like the garage right next to me that looks like it belongs in Brightmoor, and I ' m trying to make my place look nice . I put a gable roof on it , and all the neighbors - - or most of the neighbors around there said they' d come down there anytime and tell you how nice I ' m making it look. And I ' m working on it trying to make it look nice . Henzi : what do you do for a living? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 53 Mr , Tomanovich : I have a tree service . Henzi : Any questions? Pastor : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor : As for the Building Department - - I forgot to ask this - - he ' s got a dump truck parked in his yard . We don ' t allow that , do we? Hanosh : In a residential area , commercial vehicles are not allowed unless they ' re garaged . Mr. Tomanovich : I don ' t have no dump trucks parked in my yard . Pastor : Is this not your house with a dump truck in it this afternoon? Mr . Tomanovich : Oh , this afternoon , yeah . That ' s not my truck though . Pastor : Whose truck is it? Mr . Tomanovich : It ' s a guy that works for me . Ms . Tomanovich : Employee . Tell him about your yard . Mr. Tomanovich : I have a yard on Eight Mile , and I will make sure that he doesn ' t park it there anymore. And I thought about that today. I said , "You know what? They ' re going to think that I ' m parking a dump truck there . " It ' s not my truck. Ms . Tomanovich : It ' s an employee ' s . Pastor : Whose other pickup truck is this? Mr. Tomanovich : The old one? Pastor : The red and white one . Mr . Tomanovich : That ' s mine . Ms . Tomanovich : That ' s for sale . Mr . Tomanovich : It ' s for sale . I got a couple people City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 54 interested in it . I am trying to get everything out of there , cleaned up and make it look - - it ' s going to be nice when I get done with it . I ' m going to have nice grass in the back, I want to put a pool in . I got seven grandkids and I want to make it look nice . Pastor : Whose Camaro or Firebird is that under this temporary storage? Mr . Tomanovich : That was my son ' s , and I bought it off him and now I ' m going to sell it . That ' s why I ' m having it cleaned . That ' s a detailer put that up so he could detail that and it ' s going up for sale. Pastor : So this temporary structure is not going to be there any longer? Mr . Tomanovich : No . He just put that up a couple days ago . Ms . Tomanovich : Because it was raining . Mr . Tomanovich : It was raining . He put it up so he could work on the car . Pastor : What about all the trash in front of your garage? A heater - - Mr . Tomanovich : Well , I just sold a house down the street . And I ' m having a problem, I agree, I have to get rid of stuff. And I want to , trust me . I just - - I had to use that heater not too long ago , it was real cold , to start one of my machines on the job site . Pastor : You got an exercise bike , a garbage can , shovel , a grill . I don ' t even know what that is . Mr. Tomanovich : I just grilled a bunch of food Sunday in the rain . That grill has not been out there . But no , I have no problem . I ' ve always complied with whatever you want me to do . I ' ll get that all cleaned up . But like I say , I just sold the house down the street , and I ' ve got too much stuff . I have to get rid of it . Pastor : So what ' s your excuse for not pulling a permit? Because obviously you know you should have . Mr . Tomanovich ; I know I should have . I know. Pastor : So what ' s your excuse for not doing it? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 55 Mr . Tomanovich : I don ' t have one . I should have done it , and I was just in the - - Ms . Tomanovich : Busy working . Mr. Tomanovich : Busy working and I should have came down and done it . And I won ' t - - I promise you it won ' t happen again . Pastor: How do you know it ' s built right then if you didn ' t pull a permit from the Inspection Department? Mr . Tomanovich : Because I ' ve been around building houses all my life . I know - - Pastor : But the Inspection Department didn ' t inspect it . Mr . Tomanovich : Well , trust me . I know people that know how it ' s supposed to be and it ' s done up to code . If it ' s not then - - I know it is . I wouldn ' t have done it if it wasn ' t done right . Henzi : Any other questions? Baringhaus : Mr . Chairman . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : What do you plan on storing in the addition? Mr. Tomanovich : Right now I ' ve got a bunch of stuff in there . Anybody ' s more than free to come over . I just got boxes and boxes of stuff from the other house that we ' re trying to go through and get rid of , and once that happens it ' s just going to be for my lawnmowers and stuff . I caught one of my neighbors down there one day . He ' s standing out in back, and I had a snow blower come up missing . So I had stuff stolen so now I ' m trying to keep stuff where people can ' t grab it . There ' s been other things going on around there. Baringhaus : I ' m sorry , you may have talked about this earlier . But in terms of materials you ' re planning on using on the structure , shingles , siding , what types of materials? Mr . Tomanovich : What types? Baringhaus : Yes . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 56 Mr . Tomanovich : It ' s already got the shingles on it that match the other ones . Baringhaus : Great . Thank you . Henzi : Anything else? Is there anyone in the audience that wants to speak for or against the project? If so , c ' mon up . I see no one coming forward . Are there letters? Baringhaus : No letters . Henzi : Anything you want to say in closing? Pastor . Mr . Chair . Henzi : Hang on . Mr . Pastor . Pastor : I ' m looking a the picture. It doesn ' t quite look like your shingles are quite finished . Mr . Tomanovich : What? Pastor : Are your shingles not quite finished? Mr . Tomanovich : No . They' re done . Pastor : There ' s something going on on top of your roof . I don ' t know. Mr . Tomanovich : Oh , I don ' t know even what that is . That was up there when I bought that house . Somebody told me it ' s like a - - I don ' t know what it is . Just something up by the peak. I ' ve never been up there myself , but it ' s something weird . I don ' t know what it is . Pastor : So this garage is quite large. What are you actually storing in this garage? Because you didn ' t really tell me what you were storing . Mr . Tomanovich : The front garage I ' ve got an ' 68 Chevelle in it with 40 , 000 original miles on it . The back garage has got a bunch of our junk that we ' ve collected through the years from our other house . I ' ll be honest with you , I didn ' t want to go rent a storage to put in the storage - - Ms . Tomanovich : To go through it all . Mr . Tomanovich : - - to go through it all and pay that money every month . I ' m being honest with you . That ' s why I built it . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 57 Ms . Tomanovich : I have a lot of the antiques that I ' ve accumulated over the 25 years we lived in our other house and many boxes , and I need a place to store them as well . And we figured a storage unit - - they ' re very costly , and T would rather have my stuff with me than in a unit somewhere . And that ' s my collection . But like we have tools , we have lawnmowers , we have the car . We want to keep it protected and not in the weather . We want to keep everything out of the yard and sheltered in a contained area so nothing gets stolen or any attention is drawn to what we may have because things have been stolen that have been left out , even as much as our garden hose . Pastor : You ' re 324 square feet over what we allow. What happens when we tell you to bring it down to the 724 that you ' re only allowed? What are you going to do then? Mr. Tomanovich : I wouldn ' t want to agree with it because I ' ve got plenty of property . You can ' t even see that back there. Ms . Tomanovich : How much property? Mr. Tomanovich : I ' ve been going around and looking at stuff , and I ' m like, "Are you kidding me? They allowed this to happen?" I was at a house on Merriman the other day, I walked in the back, I ' m doing a tree , the garage roof is caving in . I go , "Where are we? In Brightmoor? They allow this in Livonia?" I mean completely caved in . I ' m trying to fix my place up . Ms . Tomanovich : We have nearly two acres of land behind the garage , so we ' re not stepping on anybody down . Mr . Tomanovich : There ' s no wires , there ' s no - - and I mean all I ' m trying to do - - I pay my taxes . I ' m trying to make things nice, and it ' s going to be nice when I get done with it . All I ' m doing is fixing things up over there all the time . When I got time , I ' m working on something . I agree that garbage out front - - I don ' t even like looking at it . There ' s a stove sitting out there under a tarp , I ' m tired of looking at it . The garbage - - I don ' t like nothing in the driveway myself. Pastor : What ' s in your shed? Mr. Tomanovich : That ' s just got like there ' s a lawnmower - - City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 58 Ms . Tomanovich : Shovels . Mr . Tomanovich : - - shovels . Ms . Tomanovich : Pool material . We ' re getting a pool this summer hopefully . Mr . Tomanovich : There is just basically - - Pastor : I ' m a little confused . You have this big garage , but then you have this shed with all the tools in it . Mr . Tomanovich : Please come over there and I ' ll open the doors . Pastor : I was over there today and I took pictures , Mr. Tomanovich : I want you to come in there and I ' ll open the doors and you just look at all the stuff that I bought down there from the other house that I got to go through and get rid of . I just couldn ' t put it outside. Schepis : Mr, Chairman . Henzi : Mr . Schepis , Schepis : I ' m sorry if you already answered it , but how long have you lived there? Mr. Tomanovich : At this house? Schepis : Yes . Mr . Tomanovich : I bought it like four years ago . Ms . Tomanovich : But we ' ve have completely moved in -- Mr . Tomanovich : Now we ' ve just - - Ms . Tomanovich : - - just recently when I moved over and we sold the house . Mr . Tomanovich : I had the other house down the street for 20 - - Ms . Tomanovich : Well , how long - - Mr. Tomanovich : - - 21 years , I think. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 &9 Ms . Tomanovich : How long have we lived in this house? About February? Mr . Tomanovich : I ' m not even sure exact dates . Schepis : Months and years? Mr . Tomanovich : No. I think I bought the house like four years ago in February. Schepis : And you moved in in February? Ms . Tomanovich : Officially a moved a year ago completely . We waited till until we sold the house to completely make our move because we knew we had a garage full . Mr . Tomanovich : And the guy - - believe it or not , the other house down the street , I still got a bunch of junk down there he ' s yelling at me to get out of there . And I have nowhere to put it . Schepis : So you bought the house about four years ago and you moved in about a year ago? Ms . Tomanovich : Yes . Schepis : Thank you . Henzi : Any other questions? Mr . Tomanovich : I ' ve got a generator , a Coke machine , couple antique motorcycles still down the street in that guy' s garage. And he came down the other day , he goes , "You got to get this out of there . " I showed him my garage , I can ' t even - - I got to get rid of stuff so I got room. Henzi : Okay. We ' ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board ' s comments with Mr . Klisz . Klisz : I think that , of course , we ' re never pleased when anyone builds without coming (1 ) to the Building Department , (2) if it ' s - - which it is in the excess that they would have to come before us . But I believe that given the size of the lot , that the sizing of it is not too out of control compared to things that we ' ve granted in the past . I think I would be in support of the variance, and I think we ' ve charged like a double permit fee or something like that as a condition , So I would be in favor of that . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appears March 28, 2017 sa Mr . Tomanovich : I deserve that . Henzi : Mr . Schepis . Schepis : Yeah . I agree that this is a big lot that we would normally grant a variance on it . I ' m concerned that you ' re a builder and you didn ' t pull a permit . Mr . Tomanovich : Well , I ' m not . I know people that build . Schepis : I think that you knew that you should have pulled a permit . Mr . Tomanovich : I know. I totally agree with you . Like in the back too , I got people on the back street that just came back, took my fence down and just they ' ve been parking boats and campers back there on my property . And I asked the inspector to go back there and tell them I want to cut down trees , put up one of those hogwire fences . They got all kinds of stuff parked on my property. Schepis : My other concern is if we deny this variance , there ' s just going to be some more stuff that ' s going to end up in the yard , and I ' m not in favor of that . So I guess I wouldn ' t support this . Henzi : Mr , Pastor . Pastor : Well , there ' s no doubt that this lot is big enough to support this garage , and normally I probably would have gave you this . Mr . Tomanovich : Oh , I apologize . I know that . Pastor : You don ' t need to respond to me . This is our comments . Mr . Tomanovich : Oh , okay . Pastor : But you didn ' t give us that chance . You ' ve had this house for four years , you say you got more junk in it than you know what to do with . Although you haven ' t cleaned it out , you ' re telling me you have another garage down the street that you haven ' t cleaned out . And then I took pictures of the front of your house, you have all kinds of stuff sitting in front of your house that shouldn ' t be there including a dump truck that you say is an employee' s , but how do I know that? Multiple vehicles . I ' m so close to saying , "Tear down this garage . " I don ' t City of Livonia, zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 61 know if I can support this or not . I ' m just - - this you knew you should have pulled a permit , you ' re in the trades , you know that ' s a requirement . So I don ' t know what I ' m going to vote , how I 'm going to vote right now. Henzi : Mr , Baringhaus . Baringhaus : I share my colleagues ' disappointment in the fact that you did not pull a permit and I agree that a double assessment should be levied on you . If I ' m looking at this , if it was done correctly with a permit pulled and a proposal placed before us tonight , I would have a hard time approving this because really on the detail of your design is marginal , not a lot of detail . Where are the windows , where are the doors , what are the materials , what ' s the electric set up on it , do you have a plan that shows how storage will be utilized in the building? They' re not there . And based on that , I would like to see more detail and more thought put into this design . I ' d like to see the home permit pulled before I would accept this variance, If I were to ask to vote on it tonight , I would not approve this variance . Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : Yeah . I too am extremely disappointed in the fact that the permit wasn ' t pulled . The reason given by the applicant was he didn ' t have time. I don ' t know how much time it took to build this structure , but it would have allowed more than enough time to go down and pull the permit , come to us , gotten the variance and done it the right way . I do believe that the lot is large enough to support a garage this size . I agree with Mr . Baringhaus that the plans submitted are insufficient . We may require certain changes to it before we would approve it , and I think a double permit fee is insufficient in a fine for what has been done . So my suggestion would be to table this . I want you to come back with a full set of plans , I want to see a complete design including doors , windows , everything , so that we can view that and decide whether that meets - - or make any changes that we think are appropriate , and at that point then we ' ll discuss the appropriate ramifications . The payment , the fine from my perspective , I don ' t think two is enough . I think the problem with that is is that it sets City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 62 precedents that people say , "Well , I ' ll just go build it . If I get caught it ' s only two times the permit fee and I get to keep it . So hey, why bother? I ' ll take my chances . " That ' s not the way I want things done here . So I suggest tabling this . I want to see a full set of plans , I want it with details including building materials and such , and at that point we ' ll make a decision on whether we ' ll approve it or not . Henzi : I ' m kind of the same mind , only I would add that you have to come back within - - I mean the sooner the better . Mr . Tomanovich : Right . Henzi : Thirty to 45 days , and it ' s got to be cleaned up . If it ' s not cleaned up , I 'm going to vote no . Mr . Tomanovich : Right . Henzi : It looks terrible . Respectfully , it looks terrible . People come to us and say , " I ' ve got so much stuff , please give me a big garage so I can put it in there so my neighbors don ' t have to look at it . " You built the big garage , and your neighbors still have to look at it . So if you clean it up and put everything inside , then we ' ve solved our problem and we ' ll talk about the fees . If not , I just can ' t let something like that look in that state of disrepair in Livonia . The floor is open for motion . Pastor: Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Upon Motion by Pastor and supported by Coppola , it was : RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2017-03-17: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Robert Tomanovich , 20301 Purlingbrook, Livonia , MI 48152 , seeking to maintain an addition to a detached garage , erected without a permit , which results in excess detached garage area . The existing shed will be removed . Detached Garage Area : Allowed : 720 sq . ft . Proposed/Existing : 1 , 044 sq , ft . Excess : 324 sq . ft . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 63 The property is located on the west side of Purlingbrook (20301 ) , between Pembroke and Eight Mile , Lot . No . 006-99-0012-000 , RU F-A Zoning District . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543 , Section 2 . 10 (5) , "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms ; Garage , Private , " be tabled to allow the Petitioner to provide plans detailing the proposed finishes , window(s) , door(s) , power, etc . , prior to April 28 , 2017 for consideration at the Board ' s May 23 , 2017 meeting . ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor , Coppola , Baringhaus , Henzi , Klisz , Schepis NAYS: None ABSENT: Neville Henzi : I just lost power. Pastor : Love these things Henzi : Does it tell you on there? Do you have the sheet? Baringhaus : Yes . It ' s on there . Henzi : We ' re just looking for the next available meeting date so we can tell you . Pastor : And we should have it inspected during this period to make sure it ' s safe . Mr . Tomanovich : Hurricane proof . Hanosh : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Hanosh . Hanosh : The next available meeting would be coming up on May 9th . Pastor : That ' s probably too soon . Henzi : When does he have to have his - - Hanosh : He would have to have everything by April 13th , so that one ' s passed . Or I ' m sorry . That one is still a potential . Pastor: Might be too soon . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 64 Henzi : Yeah , that ' s a little tight . Hanosh : The next one we have is May 23rd . Deadline for submission is April 28th . Pastor : So you have until April 28th to get your plans to the City . Mr . Tomanovich : Okay . Pastor : Get it cleaned up . Henzi : Is there support? Coppola : Motion to table by Pastor , supported by Coppola . All in favor say, "Aye. " Board Members : Aye. Henzi : So call Marilyn in the office and ask for that May 23rd meeting , and then you have to got your materials in by I think it was April 28th , Hanosh : Yes . Coppola : I think we require an inspection of that structure so if there ' s any deficiencies that need to be addressed at the meeting that they ' ll be addressed at that time too . Can we have that done? Hanosh : If the Board requests it . Pastor : I did have that in mind . Henzi : I mean it ' s built , can he go get a permit tomorrow? Hanosh : For this? Pastor : No . Hanosh : No Henzi : To get an inspection doesn ' t he have to? Coppola: Not if we ask him to inspect it . Fisher : It ' s the other way around . The inspection comes before the permit . Pastor : Inspection comes after the permit normally . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 65 Fisher : Well , after the application you mean . Didn 't you already apply for a permit? Mr . Tomanovich : Yeah . Hanosh : We have not been able to verify anything by the Inspection Department ; footings , structure , the way it was . We did have one inspector go out there . Mr . Tomanovich : Right . He told me to wait till after this to do i t . Henzi : I just don ' t want a delay and have - - if they' re ready to go inspect it next week, they should go inspect it . Mr . Tomanovich : I have no problem . Henzi : To come back in May , somebody says , "Well , I didn ' t get my stuff in on time - - " Mr . Tomanovich : I have no problem . He wanted what? Three holes dug? Hanosh : Potentially . Mr . Tomanovich : Yeah . I think he said three holes dug . I have no problem doing everything he wants me to do . Henzi : The Meeting is May 23rd . It ' s on you to get it done then . Mr . Tomanovich : Okay. Well , somebody was supposed to one guy told me when I came in here that he ' d write me up everything I needed to do because - - Henzi : I ' d schedule a time to go down and talk with them and figure it out . They' re more than happy to talk to you . Hanosh : We can ' t tell you , as an Inspection Department , how to built it . We ' re not there to teach you . Mr . Tomanovich : No , I know. I just want to know what I have to do - - Hanosh : We just talk to you about deficiencies if it doesn ' t meet code requirements . Pastor : He ' s looking for what you guys want to him to do , like dig a hole for footings . He ' s looking for something City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 6E like that . Mr . Tomanovich : So I know exactly what I - - because I want to do this time . I want to do it right and I don ' t want to - - Pastor : Make sure there' s enough room. Schepis : Well , he needs to go to the office . Henzi : Right . Just go in there anytime . Mr. Tomanovich : Where is it? Henzi : The ground floor. Mr . Tomanovich : In the Inspection? Henzi : Annex side . Mr. Tomanovich : Okay. Henzi : Good luck to you . Thank you . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 67 APPEAL CASE NO. 2017-03-18: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Nicholas Presutti , 36696 Clarita , Livonia , MI 48152 , seeking to construct a detached garage while maintaining an attached garage , resulting in excess number of garages and garage area . Number of Garages :_ Garage Area : Allowed : One Allowed : 660 sq . ft . Proposed : Two Proposed : 1 , 000 sq . ft . Excess : One Excess : 340 sq . ft . The property is located on the south side of Clarita (36695) , between Margareta and Dardanella, Lot . No. 030-01 -0280-000 , R-4B Zoning District . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 2 . 10(5) , "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms ; Garage , Private, " and Section 18. 24, "Residential Accessory Building . " Henzi : Mr. Hanosh , anything to add to this case? Hanosh : Not at this time , Mr. Chair . Henzi : Any questions for Craig? Good evening . Mr . Presutti : Good evening . Ms . Presutti : Good evening . Henzi : Tell us your names and address . Ms . Presutti : Kimberly Presutti , 36695 Clarita . Mr . Presutti : Nicholas Presutti . 36695 Clarita . Henzi : Tell us about the project . Mr . Presutti : Essentially , I wanted to build an oversized shed in the backyard . So I looked up the zoning , it says I can only do 200 square feet which is 10 x 20 , so we ' re asking for 16 x 24, so six feet wider by four feet deeper . Henzi : Can you tell us about the building materials? Mr . Presutti : Yeah , absolutely . It ' ll be 2 x 4 construction , 16 on center , gable roof . We are going to have a - - requesting an eight-foot roll -up door and then a three-foot doorwall to walk through . No taller than 16 feet . The wall is either going to be eight to ten depending City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 68 on the pitch of the roof. Henzi : Door in the back or no? Mr. Presutti : No . The door will be on the side just like - - Henzi : Just like here? Mr. Presutti : Yeah . Henzi : Is this exactly the type that you want to build? Mr . Presutti : That is very , very similar , yes , to what we want to do . Even with the shake siding on the front . Henzi : So just an approach or an apron? Mr . Presutti : I ' d like to pour like a pad in front of it all the way to the gate . Henzi : What are you going to use it for? Mr. Presutti : Storage . My wife and I each ride motorcycles . We have a quad so we have a basement , but it ' s a very small basement . And after the furnace and laundry room , it only leaves us with maybe 300 square feet down there of storage area . We kind of bought this home to be our forever home and we ' re going to start a family , so I know things are going to going to accumulate over time . I can guarantee that . Henzi : Any questions for the Petitioners? Pastor : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor : How big of garage do you have right now? Mr. Presutti : We currently have technically 616 square feet , but because we have do have a quad there ' s a staircase in the back with - - five feet of that is a step up and then there ' s a doorwall there. So basically we lose 5 x 20 feet , so 100 square feet of the garage for the stairway and the doorwall . Pastor : So you already have a 600 square foot garage give or take? City of Livonia, .Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 ss Mr . Presutti : Give or take . Pastor : Which is larger than a normal garage. What did you want - - you just want to put a couple bikes in this garage? Mr . Presutti : Bikes , lawn equipment , patio furniture in the wintertime . My wife has already hit the snowblower twice this year pulling into the garage which in turn hit the motorcycle. So basically just storage . Ms . Presutti : With anything parked in front of our cars , if he pulls his truck in , you can ' t put anything in front of it . There ' s not room because of that step up with the stairwell in front of it . His truck barely - - I mean it ' s front to back. Mr. Presutti : I do work 24-hour shifts and my wife works afternoons , so she gets home a lot of times after midnight , so we feel a lot more comfortable with her being able to pull fully in the garage . Ms . Presutti : Put the garage down , get out , go inside . Basically , we ' re hoping to start a family . Like he said , kids ' toys and whatnot , there' s just no storage in that garage with cars and bikes parked in it . Mr . Presutti : I also have a small utility trailer I use for cutting grass for family members like my parents and my aunts and stuff . It ' s currently stored down at my parents ' house in Taylor , so I got to drive to Taylor to get it , drive back. I don ' t want to park it in the yard because it ' s a nice neighborhood . I don ' t want to accumulate things in the backyard . Baringhaus : Mr . Chairman . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus , Baringhaus : I 'm sorry . You may have mentioned this before . Is it a prefabricated unit or is this - - Mr . Presutti : No. This would be constructed . Baringhaus : And who will do the construction? Mr. Presutti : I was waiting to get quotes to see where this went , Baringhaus : In the photo that you submitted here , this is just representative of the design? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 70 Mr . Presutti : Correct . Baringhaus : Thank you . Pastor : Mr. Chair. Henzi : Mr. Pastor . Pastor : What kind of doors did you say you were going to put on here? Mr . Presutti : bike an eight-foot roll -up door on the front , just a standard garage door, and then a three-foot entry door to the east . Pastor : Didn ' t I hear you say a sliding door or something before? Mr . Presutti : No . I said doorwall . Ms . Presutti : A regular door. Mr . Presutti : Just a regular door three . Three-foot door . Pastor : That ' s not a doorwall . That ' s where I got - - Mr . Presutti : My mistake . Pastor : That ' s what I thought I heard you say . Okay . Thank you . What kind of power do you want to put in here? Mr . Presutti : Just standard . What is that , 120? Pastor : How many circuits , do you know? Mr . Presutti : No more than two . Pastor : Okay . Henzi : Any other questions? Schepis : Mr. Chairman . Henzi : Mr. Schepis . Schepis : Your neighbor to the east at 36661 has a little shed 1n their yard . Mr . Presutti : Yes . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 79 Schepis : How does that size compare to the one that you ' re proposing? Mr . Presutti : I haven ' t measured his , but we talked about it . I believe his is a 12 x 14 maybe or 11 by - - do the math here . Schepis : And your proposal was - - Mr . Presutti : 16 x 24. We have a much larger lot than he does . Schepis : How big is your lot? Mr. Presutti : I think it ' s point 27 . It ' s 11 , 700 square feet . Henzi : Any other questions? Baringhaus : Mr . Chairman . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : Can you describe the fencing on your property? Is a private fence or is it a chain link or no fence at all ? Mr. Presutti : Yes . In October we just had a six-foot white vinyl fence installed . Baringhaus : So it would - - the shed , that would obstruct the view of the shed from the neighbors? Mr . Presutti : Correct . Baringhaus : Thank you . Pastor: Mr. Chair. Henzi : Mr. Pastor . Pastor: Did you get a permit for that fence? Mr . Presutti : I did . Yes , sir . We just had our final inspection two weeks ago. Pastor: Craig , don ' t we normally see privacy fences? Hanosh : Only if it was required . This is an interior lot . If it met the requirements of the ordinance, it would not City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 72 come to you guys on the Board . Pastor : Well , it ' s a six-foot fence. I thought - - Hanosh : It ' s an interior lot . We ' re talking about corner lots at five feet . Six feet is standard on an interior lot , Pastor : Thank you . Henzi : Any other questions? There ' s no one in the audience . Are there letters to read? Baringhaus : We have three letters , Mr . Chairman . First is a letter of objection from Mary Ann Schils , 36730 Clarita . (Letter read . ) Letter of - - looks like objection from William and Frances Arkesteyn 36656 Clarita . (Letter read . ) And then a letter of an approval , John Foster 36755 Margareta Street . (Letter read . ) Henzi : Anything you want to say in closing? Mr . Presutti . Yeah , It ' s not a two-car garage. This is essentially an oversized shed . We can build a 10 x 20 legally within the ordinance . All we ' re asking for is six feet by four feet larger, six feet wider by four feet deeper . We did install a privacy fence for this reason last fall because we had planned on doing this . We take really good care of our property and we take pride it our home . We have lived in Livonia since 2009 , and this is the city - - we bought this home as our forever home , so this is something that we plan on maintaining and taking care of . I don ' t believe it will be an eyesore to anybody , especially when there ' s already - - we ' re gonna put a shed there regardless , whether it ' s 10 x 20 or 16 x 24. A building will still go up . Mrs . Presutti : Currently it ' s a Rubbermaid shed that ' s full . To me, that ' s an eyesore rather than us putting up something that is matching to our home. Mr . Presutti : Right . It will be sided and match the home . Henzi : Thank you . Pastor : Mr . Chair. Henzi : Mr . Pastor . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appea7s March 28, 2017 73 Pastor: You said currently you have a shed . I didn ' t notice that . Do you have a shed currently? Mrs . Presutti : It ' s just a Rubbermaid . Mr . Presutti : It ' s a temporary plastic Rubbermaid , 8 x 8 . Pastor : Thank you . Baringhaus : Mr , Chairman . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : Sorry . Just two last questions . Going back to your 8 x 8 shed . When the other structure is in place , will the 8 x 8 shed be removed? Mr . Presutti : Yes . Baringhaus : Also I notice you have a 10-foot gate - - Mr. Presutti : Correct . Baringhaus : - - on the front of your house . Is that also a privacy gate , for lack of a better term? White vinyl ? Does it match the existing fence? Mr, Presutti : Yes . It was all installed at the same time . Baringhaus : So it obstructs the view of the shed from the street? Mr . Presutti : Correct . Mrs . Presutti : And it locks . Both sides of the gate lock, you have to have a key to get into the backyard . Baringhaus : Also one last question . The height of the structure that you ' re proposing? Mr. Presutti : No taller than 16 feet . It won ' t be any taller than the home . Wall size I ' d assume eight and then a 6-12 pitch , I would say anywhere between 14 to 16 feet tall . Baringhaus : Very good . Thank you . Henzi : Okay. I ' ll close the public portion . Mr. Schepis . Schepis : I ' ve got a question for Building Department . The shed that would be allowed there without a variance , how big City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 74 is that? Hanosh : It would be up to 200 square feet . And the other reason why we call this a garage is it has - - sheds can only have no more than a six-foot door. This has an eight-foot door, so we have to classify it as a garage because of the door size also . Schepis : Is there a height limit? Hanosh : Sixteen feet . Schepis : On a shed? Hanosh : On garages or sheds per our ordinance . Schepis : So it ' s the same? Hanosh : Yes . Schepis : Thank you . Henzi : I ' ll close the public portion of the case and begin the Board ' s comments with Mr . Schepis . Schepis : Thank you , Mr. Chair . I agree that you take very nice care of your property . You ' ve got a nice house , and it looks good especially with the new fence . Mr . Presutti : Thank you . Schepis : I would agree to a variance I think, but this is - - my initial reaction is that this is a little bit big for the size lot that you have. I understand that you ' ve got a quad level and it ' s not a whole lot of basement space . I ' d like to hear what the rest of the Board has to say , but I ' m a little bit concerned that this is sort of a big shed for this size lot . Pastor : Mr . Chair. Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor : I actually agree with that . It ' s not a large lot . Normally we give larger sheds to larger lots . This is just a standard subdivision lot . I mean it ' s a little bit wider , it ' s 90 foot instead of 80 , it ' s 130 instead of 120 , 125 . It ' s a little bit larger , but not to the point where I would say it ' s a large lot . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 75 You have a large garage already , so I think the shed is a little bit big . You said you were trying to claim it was four foot by whatever, six foot or whatever it is , but that was like 163 square feet larger . I don ' t know. So I ' d like to see it cut down a little bit myself , but I can ' t support this as it sets right now. Baringhaus : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : Yeah . Looking at the plan , I think it ' s very well thought out . I like the placement of the shed in the back of the yard . I like the fact that you have a privacy fence around the backyard itself which would not impose on the neighbors having to view the shed all the time . I really don ' t have any objection to the size of the shed given the fact that I don ' t think it ' s going to infringe on any of the neighbors ' view of the aesthetics of the neighborhood . Based on the photo you submitted , it ' s very well designed , very aesthetically pleasing , so at this point I would be in support of the variance . Henzi : Mr. Coppola. Coppola: I have to agree with Vice Chairman Pastor and Mr . Schepis . I think it ' s a little too big for the lot . You do already have actually a rather large garage . St ' s over 600 square feet , although I do understand the difficulties when you put everything in , cars , especially the size of the vehicles these days , and all the toys and everything it gets a little tight , so I get the hardship there . Whether that hardship can be resolved with a 10 x 20 shed is in question . I could be supportive of something a little bit bigger than the 10 x 20 , but not to this size . Henzi : Mr. Klisz. Klisz : I think I can be in support of it . For the needs that you have , the one that you can get I don ' t think would work for the motorcycles and the things that you ' re looking to get put in there . I also thank you for not building it first and then coming forward to us after. Good for you on that . Baringhaus : The City commends you . Klisz : But I think that it ' s reasonable given the rest of the circumstances in this , and I would be in support of it City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 76 as presented . Henzi : I would support something smaller than what ' s presented for reasons stated tonight . I would suggest 16 x 20 , which is 320 . I get it that you have can 860 square feet and not even come before us . If you had built at 320 , you ' re going to be in excess of 76 square feet . You ' re proposing to build a 384 square feet structure which is almost like having two sheds . I just think for that neighborhood it ' s a little much , so I would go to 16 x 20 . So the floor is open for motion . Pastor : Mr . Chair . Henzi : Mr . Pastor . Pastor : My computer just ran out of battery . Upon Motion by Pastor and supported by Coppola, it was RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2017-03-18: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Nicholas Presutti , 36695 Clarita , Livonia , MI 48152 , seeking to construct a detached garage while maintaining an attached garage , resulting in excess number of garages and garage area . Number of Garages : Garage Area: Allowed : One Allowed : 660 sq . ft . Proposed : Two Proposed : 1 , 000 sq . ft . Excess : One Excess : 340 sq . ft . The property is located on the south side of Clarita (36695) , between Margareta and Dardanella, Lot . No . 030-01 -0280-000 , R-4B Zoning District . Rejected by the Inspection Department under Zoning Ordinance 543, Section 2 . 10 (5) , "Definition of Miscellaneous Terms ; Garage , Private, " and Section 18. 24 , "Residential Accessory Building , " be tabled to allow the Petitioner to take the Board' s comments into account . ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Pastor , Coppola , Baringhaus , Henzi , Klisz , Schepis NAYS: None ABSENT: Neville Henzi : So that was in part a favor to you because we' re missing a board member , and you may have had three votes , I City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 77 can ' t remember . So you wouldn ' t have to pay to come back if we just denied i t . Mr . Presutti : Okay , Henzi : You don ' t have to do anything differently . Just take into account what you heard tonight . If you want to rework it , that ' s fine. If you want to come back and say, " I still want 384, " then we ' ll have all seven and we ' ll vote then . Mr. Presutti : Can we just compromise on the size now or no? Henzi : No . You might not want to . You might get four, I can ' t remember if we were at two or three. Oh , but we were at two . Mr . Presutti : Okay. Thank you very much . Appreciate your time . Henzi : Thank you . Mr . Presutti : Have a good one. Baringhaus : Mr . Chairman . Henzi : Mr . Baringhaus . Baringhaus : We have to vote on the previous February minutes . Pastor : Support . Henzi : Motion by Baringhaus , support by Pastor . All in favor say, "Aye . " Board Members : Aye . Coppola: Mr. Chair . Henzi : Mr . Coppola . Coppola : I move to adjourn . Pastor : Support . Henzi : Moved and supported by Mr. Pastor. All in favor say , "Aye. " Board Members : Aye . City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28, 2017 I 78 Henzi We ' re adjourned . There being nol further business to come before the Board , the meeting was adjourned at : 7 p . m . Mat hew L Henzi , C airman Jam M . Paringhaus , Secretary /jms City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals March 28„ 2017