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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA MINUTES 2018-11-27 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS CITY OF LIVONIA MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING HELD NOVEMBER 27, 2018 A Special Meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals of the City of Livonia was held in the Gallery of the Livonia City Hall on Tuesday, November 27, 2018. MEMBERS PRESENT: Greg G. Coppola, Chairman James M. Baringhaus, Secretary Janice N. Centers Lisa Fraske Timothy J. Klisz Joel D. Turbiak MEMBERS ABSENT: Craig S. Pastor, Vice Chairman OTHERS PRESENT: Michael E. Fisher, City Attorney Robert L. Stroble, City Inspector Janet M. Seewald, CSR-5079 The meeting was called to order at seven p.m. Chairman Coppola explained the Rules of Procedure to those interested parties. Each petitioner must give their name and address and declare hardship for appeal. Appeals of the Zoning Board's decisions are made to the Wayne County Circuit Court. The Chairman advised the audience that appeals can be filed within 21 days of the date tonight's minutes are approved. The decision of the Zoning Board shall become final within five (5) calendar days following the hearing and the applicant shall be mailed a copy of the decision. There are four decisions the Board can make: To deny, to grant, to grant as modified by the Board, or to table for further information. Each petitioner may ask to be heard by a full seven (7) member Board. Six members were present this evening. The Chairman asked if anyone wished to be heard by a full Board and no one wished to do so. The Secretary then read the Agenda and Legal Notice to each appeal, and each petitioner indicated their presence. Appeals came up for hearing after due legal notice was given to all interested parties within 300 feet, petitioners and City Departments. There were 28 present in the audience. _____________________________________________________(7:00) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 1 of 68 November 27, 2018 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S Appeal Case # Pages ____________________________________________________________ 8609-156R 3 - 17 (American House) 2018-11-46 18 - 29 (C & M Corporation) 2018-11-48 30 - 39 (Avey) 2018-11-48 40 – 50 (Redford West, LLC) 2018-11-49 51 - 68 (Crechiolo) City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 2 of 68 November 27, 2018 APPEAL CASE NO. 8609-156R (Rehearing): An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by American House Livonia Property, LLC, One Town Square, Ste. 1600, Southfield, MI 48076, seeking a permanent variance to maintain a deficient number of parking spaces. Number of Parking Spaces: Required: 84 Existing: 36 Deficient: 48 The property is located on the west side of Farmington (11525), between Plymouth and Orangelawn, Lot. No. 129-01-0202-004, R-9 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 18.38(26), “Off-Street Parking; Schedule.” Coppola: Please state your name and address clearly for the record. Batey: Nicholas Batey, 11525 Farmington Road. Coppola: Thank you. Mr. Stroble, do you have anything that you'd like to add? Stroble: Not at this time, Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Question for the Legal Department. What is -- we had this meeting classified as a rehearing. Is that different from any other standard case that we hear? Fisher: Well, rehearings are something in the bad old days we used to do all the time because it's sort of a make work proposition. But the Board, in former times, would very frequently give variances on a temporary basis, say, for two years, five years, whatever, and then you'd have a rehearing when that time period ended. So fortunately, that practice has pretty much gone by the boards, but in this case they needed a -- as I understand it, they needed this to be permanent or at least extended for their refinancing. The Petitioner can tell you better, but that's what I understand. Baringhaus: Thank you. Coppola: Mr. Fisher, so this has been on a -- it looks like a seven-year cycle pretty much generally. Fisher: I actually didn't go back and look, but that sounds right. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 3 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: Could you help please just help me under -- what's the relationship you have to the Petitioner? Batey: I'm our community relations director for the American House in Livonia of the property. I have three residents that have cars out of 84 apartments, so that's basically stating that we have 36 parking spots to be compliant with. We have 84 apartments, but we usually always have plenty of parking. Most of our residents do not drive at the point of moving into our community. Coppola: How many employees would you have there at any one time? Batey: At one time, I would probably say 12 to 15. We have 22 employees like total. Coppola: So the high water mark would be 15 people, and then generally guests on average? Batey: I'll probably say seven to ten. Coppola: Okay. So somewhere around 28 to 30 spots would be required to be used at any one time. So this use has been generally the same since it's opened; it's a retirement home, and there's no potential or planned changes to the use of the property? Beatty: No. Coppola: Questions? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: When did the operation open? Batey: I believe it was '86. Baringhaus: '86, okay. Batey: '84 or '86 I would say. Baringhaus: Yeah. The date 1986 mentions the property was split initially, so probably within that time area. Batey: Okay. Baringhaus: Just to clarify, so like a typical shift at American House is about seven to 10 employees on duty? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 4 of 68 November 27, 2018 Baringhaus: I would say yeah. I would say about 10 to 12 on each shift. Baringhaus: Like a morning, afternoon, night shift type of arrangement? Batey: Right. Morning shift time is like higher, afternoons I would say like seven to -- yeah. Like seven to eight people throughout the night. Baringhaus: How do you handle visitor parking at your facility especially with holidays? Batey: The time that it becomes -- if we have like a holiday party, like we'll have our Christmas party, our parking lot connects to Annie's Restaurant and usually they're pretty friendly. We work with the owner over there, and I can go over there and just ask if we can utilize some of their parking if our parking extends out of the building, and usually he doesn't have an issue with that. Baringhaus: Back on the records it mentions that the property was split at one time. Do you know if there was any plans to acquire the property in front of you which is currently vacant and consider that for parking in the future? Batey: I think our company would generally love to have the property in front of us. From what I've heard from people in the past is that the people that owned that property didn't get along with American House, so it wasn't they never -- it's a really horrible parking lot that's in front of us actually. It's like overgrown weeds and it's a real bad eyesore for our building. But I mean if we could -- if that ever arose, I'm sure our company would love to purchase that property. Baringhaus: But generally if you do have a parking situation, you will work with restaurant, Annie's, which I think that was the former Big Boy, if I'm not mistaken. Batey: Yes. Baringhaus: And you pretty much work on accommodating with them? Batey: Yeah, yeah. Baringhaus: Thank you. Coppola: So the petition request say a permanent variance comparative to the temporary we've done every seven years, somewhere around seven years. I think it was briefly mentioned potentially why you're looking for it, but can you expand on why you're looking for a permanent variance? Batey: Probably so we don't have do deal with this issue every like six to seven years. I mean I would think that's why they would ask for a permanent one. Most of our apartments are studio-sized apartments, so residents that are moving into our community are usually to the point where they can't drive anymore, something physical is wrong with them and that's why they need to move into our community, so that might City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 5 of 68 November 27, 2018 be another reason that they don't force the residents moving in there that are going to have vehicles. I can see maybe that being a reason. Coppola: There was a mention that you're looking to -- that ownership is looking to refinance it and one of the conditions is a permanent variance. Are you aware of that? Batey: Yes. Our company is going through a -- we're getting new investors. Our investors that we had were for 10 years, so their time is up so now they're shopping for new investors. I think the new investment company came across this permit that was being expired and that's why they moved forth with the hearing today. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Are your current operations are just within the one building? You don't have separate buildings for different care needs for your patients, it's all pretty much handled in the one building itself on the property? Batey: At my community, yes. Baringhaus: Okay. Thank you. Turbiak: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: To the Petitioner, are there any other events throughout the year other than Christmas that you fill up the parking lot? Batey: We do have a picnic in the summertime, but other than that, no. Turbiak: And you said that you've worked with Annie's in the past. You said there's an agreement, I believe. Is that in writing? Batey: No. Turbiak: And I was looking back at the case files, and it appears that a Mr. Mendelson is the owner of the property originally. Is that still the case? Batey: No. American House is the official owner. I think that was a -- there was a different owner of that community prior to American House owning it. I believe he was a doctor from what the history is. Turbiak: But at the time that Mr. Mendelson owned it, it was not under the name American House? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 6 of 68 November 27, 2018 Batey: I'm not 100 percent sure. Turbiak: That's not important. I just noticed that there's an update to our case file, so I don't know if my fellow Board members have had a chance to read it, but it's a letter of objection from Annie's. I'm concerned -- and they mentioned that the parking lot has been used without their permission, and they mention that there's several times a year or something like that where there's an overflow and it impacts the business. So I think that's a little concerning to me. Well, I don't know, are we giving opinions at this point, Mr. Chair, or should I -- Coppola: No. Just questioning at this point. Turbiak: All right. One second. Let me see if I have other questions. I looked back on the case file. It mentions that there is areas on the property where spots -- parking spots -- additional parking spots could be added. Are you guys willing to create those parking spots if needed? Batey: Yeah. I mean I don't foresee where we would really add parking, but yeah, I mean if that's the case I'm sure they would be fine with adding parking. Turbiak: I don't know, Mr. Chair, who to direct this to, but it seems that there was an agreement, maybe it was with the previous owner. Do we know if we have that agreement in writing and do we know if it's still in effect? Or would we have to reacquire it from the new owner of the property? Coppola: In regards to adding parking if it becomes necessary? Turbiak: Right. Fisher: Part of the answer to that is it's in your -- if I'm not mistaken -- it's in your conditions from the previous variance. Coppola: It's in here. It's in the package. It was signed by -- it's dated November 18, 1981 and signed by Doctor Allen Mendelson. Turbiak: But since he's no longer the property owner, is it still in effect or does that transfer with the transfer of ownership? Fisher: Well, if I'm -- as I say, I think that's one of your variance conditions. Turbiak: Even on the most recent renewal of the variance? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 7 of 68 November 27, 2018 Baringhaus: I think the original variance goes back to 1999. Coppola: '81. Baringhaus: '81. I'm sorry, you're correct. Coppola: '81. There was a two-year variance provided at that point when they were constructing it. Batey: Is the property in front of us available for purchase? Is that something we would have to look for? Coppola: I don't know. Turbiak: Which property are you asking about? Batey: The vacant, overgrown parking that's in front of our building. Turbiak: Okay. Coppola: Do you know who owns -- who is the managing member for American House, Livonia, LLC? Batey: I think Gary Dee would be. Coppola: Mr. Dee wasn't available this evening to -- Batey: No. Coppola: Who is Paul Stodulski? He signed the application. Batey: That would be somebody from our corporate office, I believe. Actually, I think that might be Gary's boss. Fisher: Actually, Mr. Chair, it looks like the 2007 variance doesn't repeat the requirement to be -- to have -- Coppola: Additional parking? Fisher: Yeah, the land banked parking. It just says the variance will expire in seven years. Turbiak: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: I'd like to ask a question to the Law Department. Mr. Fisher, is it possible or is City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 8 of 68 November 27, 2018 it a little bit of an oxymoron to consider something a conditional permanent variance? Is that self defeating? Fisher: Every -- well, every variance or most variances that the Board grants are conditional permanent variances because you say that it's for a permanent time and you also list a number of conditions. So that's not an oxymoron. Turbiak: Okay. Thanks. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Who have you been dealing with at Annie's and who has been giving you permission to park over there? Batey: It's the owner. Baringhaus: Who is that? Batey: I can't think of his name off the top of my head. Wail maybe. There has been some -- Baringhaus: B-a-m-i-e-h? Batey: I think so. There was some recent issues about his sewage backing up, and I know he was trying to say that it was coming from our building. There's a wye that connects from our sewer. Our sewage goes out to his, and he was saying that our grease -- from our grease it was causing his toilets to back up. But we don't use deep fryers or like any fried food in our building, so there's very minimal grease and we have grease traps in the building, so that might be a reason of his protest letter. I don't know. Baringhaus: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, sorry, one other question. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: During let's say a normal day of the week, normal operations during the day, your current parking lot was it 38 -- yes, 36 parking spots, generally is that more than sufficient to accommodate your staff and visitors? Batey: We always have parking. Like I mean the only time that it is an issue is when we have our -- Baringhaus: Special events? Batey: Yeah. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 9 of 68 November 27, 2018 Baringhaus: But generally as a rule -- Batey: Yeah. Baringhaus: -- there's parking available -- Batey: Yeah. Baringhaus: -- during the normal business day for the facility? Batey: Right. And there is additional -- I think people can park on the side of the -- because there's a driveway that circles our -- completely circles our building, so like people can park on the side too there. That's not an actual parking spot, but it's not by a fire hydrant so they're able to park there in a safe manner. Baringhaus: Thank you. Fraske: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Ms. Fraske. Fraske: When you have these special events a couple times a year, is it possible for the people that are parking there to park in that empty lot, the vacant lot, and walk over? I mean is that a possibility? Batey: Yeah, definitely. We can even have our staff park there and then that would subsidize most of the -- because I have even thought of maybe having the staff park somewhere else and then we have a bus, maybe they drive them -- the staff back to work on the bus. Because I know at another location in Westland that I worked at, that's what we would do there for a parking issue. Fraske: Thank you. Coppola: Any other questions? You can go ahead and step down and I'll call you back up when we're done. Is there anybody in the audience that would like to speak up -- Gress: I would. Coppola: -- for or against the petition? Gress: My name is Bruce Gress, and I represent Annie's, JBH, LLC, the real estate holding company. And I also have my -- Coppola: Can you give me your address, please? Gress: I'm sorry? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 10 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: Your address. You gave us your name. Gress: 985 Grace Street, Northville, Michigan. Coppola: Okay, I'm sorry. I missed it. Thank you. Go ahead. Gress: And I also have my client in the audience, you mentioned Wail in the previous discussions. The comments are pretty self-explanatory. I would take issue to some of the comments. It is true that American House used to ask for permission to park in the lot, and that was granted gratuitously. That was nice because we got a heads-up and trying to be good neighbors, but that practice has ceased so we really don't know when it's going to happen. We also get vehicles parked in our lot in the back, and I have actually seen people park there and walk around our parking lot to American House. We all know how difficult it is for a business owner to enforce patron-only parking, and it becomes quite a burden especially when one business has inadequate parking and the other one is forced to pick it up. It's kind of a political PR nightmare, so to speak, and you're pretty much at your own expense to get the stuff remedied. Originally, the Mendelson letter was granted I think for the original consideration of it, and that was because -- that was also in light of the fact that that site had additional undeveloped property where they had the ability to add more parking. Now, I don't know whether they still have that parking. I don't know if they -- I mean that vacant space, I don't know, for instance, who is the owner of the space, the vacant land behind the heating and cooling place next to Annie's. I think the American House had expressed interest in acquiring property from us at the adjoining line, but we heard back that the City had indicated that they wanted that as greenspace so they weren't inclined to grant that. But we were willing to talk to them about it if we could arrange it, some sort of acceptable consideration for that. I personally was at Annie's on Monday at two o'clock. I had lunch there, and I drove the parking lot. There were seven vacant spots and two of them were handicapped, so I'm not so convinced that there's always an abundant amount of spaces. I'm not sure the Petitioner's satisfied the need that there is no other recourse, and personally I don't find the fact that they're changing investors and need to refinance it so other people can get their money out is a reason to put the parking burden on Annie's for any overflow. Wail, do you have any other comments to share? Bamieh: My -- Coppola: Can you please come forward and give your name and address? Bamieh: My name is Wail Bamieh. My address is 33427 Plymouth Road. I'm the owner of Annie's and the property there. And yes, we did -- the management talked to me a few years, maybe five years ago, that Christmas parties they have, other functions they have, they can use my parking lot. I said okay to it, but this hasn't happened in the last three years. Nobody asked me for my permission to park there, and it is sometimes a burden. And I get busy out there on the weekends a lot where I need every parking space there, and I do see a problem there with them using my parking lot without my consent. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 11 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: Would you give them your consent if they asked or are you saying it's too much of a burden? Bamieh: It Depends on the time of the day and what day it is. Like if it's an afternoon on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I have no problems with that. But if it's going to go into a weekends, Friday, it'll be absolutely not. Gress: Al thought it might not be gratuitous, there might be some sort of compensation issue, but that might be only fair. So I don't want the Board going away saying -- thinking that Wail is going to volunteer his parking lot for every special occasion American House might have. Bamieh: About a year ago, I had employees of the American House parking in my property and it was all afternoon and they were causing troubles. And they -- we called -- I called Livonia Police and they came out twice and they had to chase them out. They came back the next day and they said they were part of the employees there. I even called the management there, and nobody even bothered to have the courtesy to call me back and discuss this. It was their employees and their friends and families waiting on them from three o'clock in the afternoon until almost midnight that day. Two days it happened. Gress: And since the Petitioner raised the sewer issue, I just want to make one comment. It's become aware -- and the City confirmed it -- that American House is tapped into Wail's private sewer line -- Bamieh: Instead of the City line. Gress: -- Instead of the City line. That's all I'm going to say about it, but I don't think this is a proper forum for resolution of that issue. But what we're concerned about now is the parking, and if you've ever been at Annie's or at the American House, you know if the American House lot is full, where would you park? You would park in Annie's. You're not going to park in the mud bowl of the vacant lot, plus they'd have to get that property owner's permission to park there. Coppola: The two lots don't connect on a drive basis; In other words, there's not a drive between your lot and their lot? Gress: The Annie's location owns the road from Farmington Road and has granted an easement for the pharmacy on the corner and the American House, so that property does belong to JBH. Coppola: The question I asked is is there a connector between Annie's and the American House -- Gress: Well, there's a -- Coppola: -- so that road off of Farmington. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 12 of 68 November 27, 2018 Gress: -- greenbelt that would border just -- well, it would be west of the easement road. Coppola: Okay. Gress: Our biggest fear is if you grant a permanent easement, all recourse is done. There's no -- really I don't see any effective ability to come back in five years or seven years and say, "Hey, this has really grown to be a bigger problem, the composition of the patients has mixed, they've got more people there, they've got more employees." It's done, and the business is going to bear the brunt of that final decision. Coppola: Just to make sure that I understand, your position is is you object to a permanent variance. Do you object to a renewal of a temporary variance? Gress: I think we could live with some sort of temporary variance assuming that we also had the understanding that they were going to do a little better job of keeping us informed and not using the lot when they don't have permission. Coppola: Anything else? Gress: No. Coppola: Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Anybody else like to speak up for or against? Seeing no one, is there any correspondence? Baringhaus: We have one letter from Wail Bamieh, 33427 Plymouth Road. Klisz: He just spoke. Baringhaus: He just spoke. I don't know if you want to -- Coppola: There's other letters in the -- Klisz: Old ones. Coppola: Oh, these are old ones. Okay. Baringhaus: Okay. So that's the only letter. If you want it read in the record, fine, if not -- Coppola: Not if he's already spoken. Would the Petitioner like to come up and make and final statements? Batey: We also back up to Buddy's parking lot and I do host events there, so like I work with their manager so I could even maybe see if we could -- if they wouldn't mind sharing some of their parking lot when we have events for our staff to park so it would City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 13 of 68 November 27, 2018 open up more parking spots for visitors. I've been with American House be for 17 years. I've been at the Livonia property for a year and a half, and I personally know I've talked to Wail quite a few times when we had events. I went to the restaurant and physically asked him, so for him to say five years ago, I don't know -- I mean I haven't -- I've only been there for a year and a half and I've met him and asked him a few times. So but that's all I really have. Coppola: Thank you. I'm going to close the public portion of the case and start the Board's comments with Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I think that a continued temporary variance in the timeframe that's been used for the past of seven years makes sense in this. I don't see the need to make it permanent. Again, there's been an objection and I think it's been a valid point that things could change. One, I think it also should stay with -- if ownership were to change, it would not become an American House, then it also should be conditioned upon the ownership being the same. But I think things could change over time, so I would look to renew the variance for seven years. I would also give a condition that American House employees and guests should be encouraged to park onsite or offsite and also get the permission every time there's a special event or someone is planning on parking there and they should seek the permission of Annie's. If they don't get it, then they should not park there. And again, if they work something out with Buddy's fine too, but they should seek permission. Coppola: Ms. Fraske. Fraske: I'm in agreement with Mr. Klisz that we do a temporary variance again and that American House make some kind of -- they try to figure out a way to work out a deal or something with another parking lot or another business to bring their employees or their guests over during the special events if they can't make some kind of arrangement with Annie's, but yeah. Coppola: Thank you. Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: I agree. I think there's definitely a need for a temporary variance. But I'd also like to see some type of solution worked on this as well rather than just continually rolling it over every seven years. I agree that I think communication can solve a lot of this; having American House communicate with Annie's when they do special events, seeking their permission for the parking lot as well. So based on that for now, I would support an approval of a temporary variance. Coppola: Ms. Centers. Centers: I agree. A temporary variance is what I would support and encourage American House and Annie's to mend their relationship and come to an agreement. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 14 of 68 November 27, 2018 Turbiak: I think I can go along with supporting the temporary variance, although in my question to Mr. Fisher over here, it sounds like a permanent variance with conditions is essentially temporary in a way, so I don't know what the advantage would be other than I guess it wouldn't have to come before the ZBA, it would probably be handled outside of the ZBA so I don't know if that's something that the Board wants to discuss after my comments. But as far as the conditions on the variance, whether it be permanent or temporary, I would like to see an agreement in writing from the current owner of American House concerning the land bank and the willingness to pursue that, if needed. I know one of my fellow members here mentioned a permanent solution. If that permanent solution involved converting that greenspace to parking, if it came to it, I would be in support of that. But I'd rather see that remain greenspace and I'm guessing that American House would rather see that as well. So one of the other conditions is that -- as many of my members have said -- is to work things out with Annie's, get it in writing, what's acceptable, when permission needs to be asked, if it's going to be a high demand period like a weekend or whatever the owners of Annie's and American House agree on, maybe there would be a monetary condition in that agreement, it's up to them to consider. I would also want to limit this to the owner and use such as the type of care, what the patients -- the type of patients that are living there. That's all my comments. Coppola: Thank you. I too can support a seven-year extension. I think it would create somewhat of a hardship on the refinance, but I think it's been operating under that now for close to 30 years, a little over 30 years. The one question I had is it looks like the last roll forward on this was 2007. Are we actually three years into an expired variance? Fisher: I guess you could say that. Coppola: So when I look at the site plan and such, and if there's no -- this is a situation that was allowed to be created back in 1981 when they built this at that time. I don't see now that you could theoretically resolve the situation with the property that's available for it, so I think providing a temporary variance continuing on that basis and the business has operated on that basis for 30 years is appropriate. I think that they need to work on coming -- because you've got these events probably two or three, maybe four times a year that you actually need all the space. One of the suggestions that the Petitioner had -- the Petitioner's representative had was using their bus, finding a local area that was open. I know there's a large -- although it's getting smaller as they put the outlots in -- there's a large parking area just to the east that could be used with permission and you could bus people in. There's solutions here. Your neighbor has suggested he'd be open on a sparse basis to provide some parking but not on a daily for employees and such. So I think ownership can figure out a way to get its financing done on a seven-year basis as it's done in the past. I think solutions that the Board has suggested are workable. So I'm going to open up the floor for a motion unless there's discussion. Coppola: Any discussions? Klisz: Do you want it for seven years? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 15 of 68 November 27, 2018 Baringhaus: Yes. For seven years, thank you. Klisz: I agree. Coppola: Any other discussions? How about ownership change? Baringhaus: Yes. Klisz: That it stays with the current -- Baringhaus: That it stays with the -- Coppola: Stays with the ownership not with the property. Baringhaus: Yes. Stays with the ownership, yes. Thank you. Upon motion by Baringhaus and supported by Centers, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 8609-156R (Rehearing): An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by American House Livonia Property, LLC, One Town Square, Ste. 1600, Southfield, MI 48076, seeking a permanent variance to maintain a deficient number of parking spaces. Number of Parking Spaces: Required: 84 Existing: 36 Deficient: 48 The property is located on the west side of Farmington (11525), between Plymouth and Orangelawn, Lot. No. 129-01-0202-004, R-9 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 18.38(26), “Off-Street Parking; Schedule,” be granted in part for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met due to the location of the building and the current nature of the variance. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner due to restricted parking and access to the facility itself. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and is in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance since this location has been under a temporary variance since 1981. 4. The property is classified as Office under the Master City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 16 of 68 November 27, 2018 Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, that the variance be granted with the following conditions: 1. That the management of both Annie's and American House properties reach a formal agreement on the use of the parking facilities at Annie's, and both parties agree and understand those conditions and keep them in force. 2. That the agreement will be in force for seven years. 3. That the agreement is nontransferable in the event of a change in ownership. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Baringhaus, Centers, Coppola, Fraske, Klisz, Turbiak NAYS: None ABSENT: Pastor Baringhaus: Variance passes. Coppola: You've received an extension, a seven-year extension on the variance with conditions. A condition to work out a written arrangement with the neighbor if you want to continue to use their property, it's seven years, and the variance is tied to ownership. So if there's a change in ownership, in other words, if American House Livonia, LLC no longer owns the property, the new owner will have to come forward and get a new variance. Thank you. Batey: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 17 of 68 November 27, 2018 APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-11-46: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by C & M Corporation, 2045 Amboy, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127, seeking to replace an existing ground sign with a new ground sign, resulting in excess sign height and area. Sign Height: Ground Sign Area: Allowed: 8 ft. Allowed: 40 sq. ft. Proposed: 10 ft. Proposed: 53 sq. ft. Excess: 2 ft. Excess: 13 sq. ft. The property is located on the north side of Five Mile (29102), between Cavour and Garden, Lot. No. 051-99-0041-000, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H(b),1 “Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts.” Coppola: Step forward. Name and address, please? C. Mareskas: Good evening. Constantinos Mareskas, 29102 Five Mile. Coppola: Thank you. Do we have anything to add from Mr. Stroble? Stroble: Not at this time, Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Any questions for Mr. Stroble? Hearing none, if you could give us some background on what you're trying to accomplish, what the hardship is. C. Mareskas: So we've been renovating the property the last two years, facelifted it. It's a two-building strip mall with a common entrance. Each building has five units in it. One of our main hardships -- especially when it comes to renting and the thing I hear most -- is a visibility issue. We have a building on our west side, the hardware store that obstructs just about all of the visibility for our units. We really only have one unit, which is the most recently reconstructed one, that has proper visibility. Along with that, we only have a sign that accommodates four of the tenants' units, and that's been a reoccurring theme I have heard through all of my attempts to lease out the stores. So with the modernization we're looking into a new sign, and we're looking to get a sign that can display all 10 units. Coppola: So the -- interestingly enough, the address that's requested for the sign is not the address that the sign is on because there's actually two different properties. C. Mareskas: Yes. Coppola: The sign is on one property, but you petitioned for the property that is actually for the one that's perpendicular to the road. So there's four units in the perpendicular -- C. Mareskas: Five. There's five each. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 18 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: Five each, okay. Any background in regards to original sign and why there was only four slots put on the original sign when there was -- C. Mareskas: I believe that was -- Coppola: Because it seems to match up to those four -- those five units that were facing -- C. Mareskas: If I call my dad up real quick because he was the original owner at the time. Coppola: Sure. If you could step up, give your name and address and speak. G. Mareskas: My name is Gust Mareskas. Do you want the address? Coppola: If you would, please. G. Mareskas: 2045 Amboy, Dearborn Heights, Michigan. Coppola: Thank you. So you'd like to -- C. Mareskas: So do you want to tell them why there were only four slots put on the original sign there? G. Mareskas: Because from the first beginning, the half of the size, someone took the plaza, there was not developing. And they already had the sign on it, and that's why we did not proceed to get a bigger sign. The other thing, that the renters that are coming in, only pay out of my pocket all the time, you know. I can't receive no money, and I didn't have the ability to put a bigger sign. So now my son took it over and is trying to develop it better to give it a better look. Coppola: So the building that's facing the road was the original building and you added the perpendicular building? G. Mareskas: No. The one was old building, the other one on the west side was the newest building that he developed. So the gentleman who develop the building, the first one on the west, he took it and develop some over that east section, the five units that's right now. Coppola: Okay. G. Mareskas: So we're -- last year we had a renovation of it and we renovate the whole thing. So unfortunately, I mean with that building next door to us, we don't have the visibility. Coppola: Questions? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 19 of 68 November 27, 2018 Turbiak: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: How many tenants do you have currently? C. Mareskas: Currently, we have four. Turbiak: Out of 10? C. Mareskas: The one just recently rented, so four out of 10. Turbiak: Is that the main unit that has the proper visibility? C. Mareskas: No. The main unit is currently open. We just finished development as of a month ago so it's just now being marketed out. Turbiak: Have you -- I took a site visit and I was driving eastbound on Five Mile from Middlebelt, and I believe when I -- actually I got out and walked and I kind of stood in the crosswalk if I were in left lane, you know, driving eastbound? C. Mareskas: Right. Turbiak: And at that point I could actually see the sign. So I know you were mentioning that the hardware building is there. C. Mareskas: Yeah. Turbiak: I don't know how many feet that is, but it seems like a reasonable amount of distance to be able to see the sign for what's on it. C. Mareskas: Well, you can see the sign, but the sign can only hold four units on it currently which is why -- Turbiak: Understand. Understand. One other thing that I noticed from that perspective and other various points along that path is that there's three -- I think they were maple trees to the east of the hardware store in the right of way. The first two from the west were high enough -- trimmed high enough that they weren't in the way, but the third one seemed like some of the lower branches when they had leaves might be in the way. So that might be something you might want to consider. C. Mareskas: Okay. Turbiak: That might help your visibility. Have you considered what happens if a car parks in that first spot right next to the sign? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 20 of 68 November 27, 2018 C. Mareskas: There should be plenty of space on both sides. I mean the sign is currently there, so we're just looking to increase the size of the sign. Turbiak: What I mean is the height of the sign. If there's a vehicle like an SUV or a van or something parked in that parking spot that's near the road and directly west of the sign -- C. Mareskas: Yeah. Turbiak: -- have you considered what that does for visibility of the sign? C. Mareskas: I haven't considered that fully. I guess I don't see how that -- like if it doesn't have an affect now as much, I don't see -- because the brick is going to stay the same size. That's part of the reason why the height is off because we also have those shrubs in the front -- Turbiak: Yeah. C. Mareskas: -- that also impact, so we need the side to be elevated a little bit more than it typically would have to be. Turbiak: Right, yeah, and that's the point I'm getting to. So the shrubs were almost -- even without a car there, the shrubs were almost high enough to block part of the bottom of the sign. It all depends on the height of the vehicle that you're riding in of course, but I think me standing on the sidewalk was representative of a vehicle. C. Mareskas: Yeah. Turbiak: What I'm saying is if there's a vehicle parked right there, you can't see what's currently the bottom two slots. C. Mareskas: Okay. Turbiak: I'm wondering if you would consider a sign that -- and I know you're already asking for an excess height, but have you considered turning the sign or increasing the width of the sign to put in this spot instead of just going vertically? That way you can move the sign up and be above -- a little bit higher for like a vehicle parked there. Or maybe you could even -- I don't know if you could get rid of those parking spots and turn them into landscaping so that cars wouldn't park right there and block it and then maybe have a sign that has three columns and you could get nine, I know you have 10 possible. C. Mareskas: Yeah. Turbiak: You could come up with another design where maybe some are shorter. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 21 of 68 November 27, 2018 C. Mareskas: Yeah. Turbiak: Have you considered something like that? C. Mareskas: We looked at various designs. Honestly, it might just be a personal preference thing, but the three side by side, I just don't think it looks as clean from just coming by. Just it's a personal preference maybe. I just think the double columns looks a little bit nicer. Turbiak: Yeah, but -- oh, sorry. Go ahead. C. Mareskas: I guess the sign is just a form of trying to reassure tenants that we're doing something for the visibility, like we're trying to add something to them where they can see. The real issue we have isn't like the sign blockage right now, it's the stores that are actually not visible. Turbiak: Right. C. Mareskas: Because those are recessed back compared to where the hardware store is, and then the other strip is perpendicular to that so only that first store is visible, the other four are not. So it's really just to have something for them out there to say like, "Look, we have something on the roadway for you to be able to --" Turbiak: Yeah, I hear what you're saying and I agree. But to that point, I mean since those are blocked for the various reasons that you described, it seems like the sign is important to be visible. So I wouldn't -- it seems like it would be self-defeating to put a new sign just so it's new if it's going to have cases where it's blocked when you have an opportunity -- you're designing a new sign -- to miss that opportunity to design it such that it's more visible to help your potential, future tenants. That's just one member's thoughts. C. Mareskas: So you're saying we should elevate -- just so I understand. I understand the three column that you're saying, I agree, but that would require even elevating the base higher. So you're saying to go even beyond what -- we tried to minimize it with the zoning -- Turbiak: Right. C. Mareskas: Like we tried to use as little extra space and as little height as we possibly could to not go too far over the zoning requirements. Turbiak: I appreciate your intentions to do that. C. Mareskas: So you're saying that we should go even further beyond that? Turbiak: Not necessarily; I'd have to look at it again to see the height. But right now, City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 22 of 68 November 27, 2018 how tall is the sign on top of the brick? Not counting the brick, how tall is the sign? Is that eight, five feet, eight feet? C. Mareskas: The sign is -- it's about seven and a half. Turbiak: So instead of going so vertical think wider. C. Mareskas: Yeah. Turbiak: So again, how tall is one section on there? About a foot tall, a foot wide? C. Mareskas: Yes, 12 inches. Turbiak: So if you go -- C. Mareskas: Twelve by 48. Turbiak: If you can go a foot and you only have three rows, you have one foot, two foot, three foot, plus the name of your plaza, that's four feet high. So I'm saying you could still -- maybe it would be 10 feet, maybe it would still be 12 feet, but find that right height. Again, you have the trees to consider. C. Mareskas: Right. Turbiak: Find that right height where you're not running into the trees and the bushes and a car parking in front of there. Think wider, and you can still maybe keep it under the 10 feet. Just a thought. C. Mareskas: Okay. Turbiak: I mean if it was me, I would want to create the most visibility for my potential customers. G. Mareskas: Absolutely right. C. Mareskas: Right. Coppola: Other questions? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: I'm looking at the photo of your sign, question is is it going to be on a timer? In other words, how long would it be illuminated? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 23 of 68 November 27, 2018 C. Mareskas: Yes; it will be on a timer. Depending on the needs of the tenant in the center is what time it would shut off at night. It would turn on right at dusk. Baringhaus: And then shut off at some point in the evening? C. Mareskas: Yes, depending on what the hours of our tenants who come in, obviously. Baringhaus: Okay. And then across the top on a red panel you have Brickshire Plaza. That's not an LED panel, that's just a static, graphic panel? C. Mareskas: No. That's an LED illumination. Coppola: But it doesn't change. Baringhaus: Oh, I'm sorry. It doesn't change. It's not an electronic -- C. Mareskas: No. Baringhaus: -- display. That's what I really meant to ask you. I'm sorry. C. Mareskas: No. Baringhaus: Great. Thank you. C. Mareskas: No problem. Coppola: Other questions? Turbiak: Yeah, Mr. Chair, I have one more question. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: When I was out there doing a site visit, I noticed a trailer behind the -- near the hardware store. Are you aware of that? G. Mareskas: Yes. C. Mareskas: Yes. We've been using that to lug -- it's our trailer, we've been using it to lug the construction materials back and forth. Turbiak: So it's not being permanently stored? C. Mareskas: No, it's not being permanently stored. It's just currently while we're -- we've been moving out all the construction materials that we just used. Turbiak: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 24 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: Any other questions? We'll call you back up. C. Mareskas: Awesome. Thanks. Coppola: Anybody out in the audience that would like to speak for or against this Petition? Seeing none, do we have any correspondence? Baringhaus: No correspondence. Coppola: No correspondence. Any final statement? C. Mareskas: Not other than what I've already said. Coppola: Okay. Thank you. I'm going to close the public portion and open the Board's comments with Ms. Fraske. Fraske: I'm in support. I feel like it's a benefit to the community, it's a benefit to the business. It's going to bring in more tenants. I'm in support. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus: Baringhaus: Yes. I'd like to thank you for your efforts in developing the property and improving it and the benefits it's going to bring to the Livonia community. You do have an interesting physical arrangement with those buildings and it is a challenge. I definitely see the need for the sign, I think it's well laid out, well planned. I'll support the variance. Coppola: Ms. Centers. Centers: I too will support the variance. I don't see this as overly excessive, and I do see the hardship due to the visibility issues with the hardware store. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: I like that you guys are investing in the property, and I appreciate the work that you're doing. But as my comments and questions lead, I don't think that this is the best design and I think that you're missing an opportunity so I don't think it's going to make a difference, but I will not be in support of this proposal. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I like the idea here. I think you have minimized the sign excess for the getting the tenants on there which is pretty vital especially considering probably the lack of other signage and exposure for them. It's replacing an existing sign; it may not be perfect, it could be blocked on occasion, but permanently and regularly I think it looks nice and it fits well with the exiting signage. I'll be in support. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 25 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: I too will be in support of this. I think there is a hardship there. There's a lack of visibility in regards to the hardware store. And first of all, I appreciate the effort you're putting in to making it look a lot better. It looks great. Appreciate that. That helps quite a bit. C. Mareskas: Thanks. Coppola: I think if it wasn't for the hardware store being in the way, I would probably have suggested that it doesn't make sense to do, but I think that creates a significant hardship for you. And also I think the other piece here is that there's actually two different lots and you could put a ground sign on the other lot -- C. Mareskas: Yeah. Coppola: -- and then now we got two ground signs, and I don't think that would look good. I will suggest to you that signage for your tenants -- don't have them come back for any excesses because they're not going to get them. But at least for my perspective, -I'm not speaking for all the Board -- but from my perspective of what you proposed is not overly excessive. I'm not a big fan of lots of signs, but I do believe there's a hardship here in regards to where the hardware store is. I'll be in support of it and I'm curious to hear the motion. Any other discussion? Turbiak: I have a question, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Yes. Turbiak: I forgot to ask, are they allowed to put signs on the front of the buildings themselves? Coppola: They are as long as they're in compliance with the zoning otherwise they have to come back. Turbiak: Do you plan to? C. Mareskas: The tenants individually. Turbiak: The tenants? C. Mareskas: Yeah. Turbiak: Okay. Thank you. Coppola: Question for Mr. Fisher, I have a technical question for you. They petitioned for this variance for the lot actually next door to the lot where the sign is. Fisher: I think they've made clear where the actual location is from their plans and so forth. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 26 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: I understand that, but it's more of a technicality. We're providing a variance for a property where there actually is no sign right now. The sign is on the property next door Fisher: Yeah. I think just say, "It's approved as presented," and we solve that problem. Coppola: Okay. Fisher: And you do say, "Approved as presented," so I think we're there. Coppola: Just want to make sure that we're not having a technical issue. Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: One more question, Mr. Chair, to the -- I believe the Building and Inspection Department: You mentioned that they can put two signs. Is that accurate? Coppola: There's two separate lots. Stroble: Yes. Turbiak: In my correspondence with Randy, he said that -- but maybe he didn't realize there was two separate lots. He said there could only be one sign. Fisher: The signage is actually allocated by road frontage, so you have to have like 200 feet before you get a sign. Coppola: Before you get a sign? Fisher: Yes. Turbiak: Oh, okay. So Randy said it was based on the number of tenants and not the road frontage in this case. I don't know if it's a unique situation or if he misunderstood the situation. Fisher: It has nothing to do with the number of lots because it's all one site. Turbiak: Not lots, tenants. Fisher: No, the number of tenants doesn't affect your ability to have a ground sign. It could all be one -- Turbiak: I think the size of the ground sign. Coppola: Any other discussion? So I'll open the floor up for a motion. Upon motion by Klisz and supported by Centers, it was: City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 27 of 68 November 27, 2018 RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-11-46: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by C & M Corporation, 2045 Amboy, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127, seeking to replace an existing ground sign with a new ground sign, resulting in excess sign height and area. Sign Height: Ground Sign Area: Allowed: 8 ft. Allowed: 40 sq. ft. Proposed: 10 ft. Proposed: 53 sq. ft. Excess: 2 ft. Excess: 13 sq. ft. The property is located on the north side of Five Mile (29102), between Cavour and Garden, Lot. No. 051-99-0041-000, C-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 18.50H(b),1 “Sign Regulations in C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4 Districts,” be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of the location of this property and the two different parcels both facing different directions and being partially hidden by the hardware store next door. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences on the Petitioner because it would be very unlikely that tenants would want to move into a complex where there would be no signs available for them. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and is in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because no one appeared, no one sent in any letters of objection, so we can assume that they were in support. 4. The property is classified as General Commercial under the Master Plan and the proposed variance isn't inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, this variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. That it be built according to the plans and the size presented today and that the timer for the lighting be in effect that it goes no longer than the last tenant's closing time. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Klisz, Centers, Baringhaus, Coppola, Fraske NAYS: Turbiak ABSENT: Pastor City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 28 of 68 November 27, 2018 Baringhaus: Variance passes. Coppola: The variance is passed. C. Mareskas: Thank you very much. Coppola: Thank you for fixing the place up. It looks great. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 29 of 68 November 27, 2018 APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-11-47: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by John Avey, 14560 Fairlane, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct an addition to a nonconforming detached garage, previously granted by variance (2005-02-11). The proposed addition results in further excess garage area. Garage Area: Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Proposed: 2472 sq. ft. (1632 sq. ft. existing) Excess: 1752 sq. ft. The property is located on the east side of Fairlane (14560), between Five Mile and Lyndon, Lot. No. 082-01-0024-000, R-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 2.10 (5), “Definition of Miscellaneous Terms; Garage, Private.” Coppola: Mr. Stroble, anything to add at this time? Stroble: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Any questions for Mr. Stroble? Seeing none, please give your name and address, please. Avey: John Avey, 14560 Fairlane. Coppola: Thank you, Mr. Avey. If you can tell us a little bit about your project, specifically, I'd like you to address the hardships you have that would necessitate the addition onto an already pretty large garage. Avey: Well, I have a tri-level with a walk out. I have no storage. When I went for the additional building for the garage, I was told I couldn't have two garages in the City of Livonia. I had to turn the existing attached garage into living space, so I turned it into living space and storage. Since then, I have added onto the house for more living space and storage, and now I need to make room to bring some elderly parents into the house. The room that I converted to storage I need to turn back into living space and then I need to move the exercise equipment out of the lower level. I was going to put that in the garage and move some of the stuff from the garage into the back so I can still utilize the exercise equipment. Coppola: So you want to add about 800 square feet onto the garage. Is that correct? Avey: If you're counting the overhang, yes. You mentioned some numbers here. Let me just get the piece of paper. You said the existing was 632 square feet. It's actually a 30 by 40, which is 1,200, with an open overhang. There is no way to secure anything. I'm adding a closed space on the back that's 30 by 12 which is 360 square feet and an additional 480 feet of open overhang to make the project look cleaner so it's more appealing to the eye. And I really don't see how I could use that open overhang for City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 30 of 68 November 27, 2018 storage. Coppola: How tall is the existing? Avey: I believe the existing one is 20 feet to the peak. Coppola: So you have a second floor in there? Avey: There is a loft in part of it, yes. Coppola: What do you use the loft for? Avey: That's also used for storage. Coppola: So how much storage space is in the loft? Avey: That's 12 by 20, so 240 square feet. But it's like four and a half feet tall because you have the eight-foot space underneath to park a vehicle and then you're ducking inside. Coppola: What do you keep in the garage now? Avey: Well, in the garage now -- I have a large piece of property, so there's some large lawn equipment, snow equipment. I have six bicycles that are in there, I have a four-wheeler and I have one car. Coppola: Last time when you came in for the approval you had said, "I do not propose to come back here in two years or 10 years and ask for another outbuilding." Avey: And I did not plan on this. I have unexpectedly been asked by both sides of my family to bring in aging parents. My father passed away in September, my mom is 80 with cancer with a wheelchair and a walker. My father-in-law is 85 and lives in Hartland by himself. My wife drives out there three days a week, winter is coming, she doesn't want to the drive out there three days a week anymore. It's getting very hard to her. It's very taxing for her. So if I can make room to bring both of these parents in the house, it would make life easier for everyone. Not necessarily mine, but for my mother and my wife. Coppola: Questions? Centers: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Ms. Centers. Centers: Can you -- you gave a lot of information so thank you, but just can you reiterate exactly what you're going to be moving from the house into the additional space that you propose to build in order to make that room for them? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 31 of 68 November 27, 2018 Avey: I have a 10 by 12 room in the house. Seeing as I have no basement there's no storage, so it has the tubs with the Christmas ornaments, the Christmas tree, the holiday decorations, the coolers that we use for camping trips, vacations, whatever. Other miscellaneous storage of suitcases, the keepsakes of the kids, so that room will have to be emptied to be put into the storage. Then I have some exercise equipment I was going to move out to make room for the wheelchairs and the walkers, and I would like to put that in the garage so it still accessible. So I would take my lawnmower -- which is a large commercial one, you see the size of the property -- I would like to put that in the back with the snowblower and I would still be able to use my exercise equipment in the garage versus packing it into storage and using it an expensive shelf. Centers: So you're freeing up the 10 by 12 room for one of your family members Avey: Correct. Centers: And then do you have another extra room that's already free? Avey: I have two girls that each have their own room that are now going to be sharing a room. They're not happy about it as teenagers, but they don't have a choice. Centers: And the garage was converted into the one of the bedrooms. Is that correct? Avey: No. The attached garage was converted into part storage and part family room. Centers: Okay. Thank you for the clarification. Fraske: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Ms. Fraske. Fraske: How long is the construction process supposed to take? Have you been given a timeframe? Avey: I can have it done in less than two months. Fraske: Are you doing it or is someone else? Avey: I have Morton Buildings, who is an international builder. I've got the package designed and weighted, and once I call him and tell him it's a go, it's 30 days to assemble the package. They actually said they can have it up within a week. Fraske: Thank you. Coppola: Instead of adding another building, have you considered adding onto the house? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 32 of 68 November 27, 2018 Avey: I just added almost 1,000 feet to the house last year. Coppola: I understand that. But instead of adding to the building, have you considered adding more onto the house? Avey: Not at this point because the only way to add onto the house and have it look proper would be to try and put a second floor over the existing garage which would create other issues. It's a longer building process, it's more expensive, and I just haven't looked that way, no. Coppola: Okay. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Originally back in 2005 when you requested the original variance you said you needed that size garage to store yard equipment, leaf blowers, things like that because you didn't -- at that time they were being stored outside. Well, now with the proposed relocation of your exercise equipment and other items from your home to this garage, where is all this other equipment going to go? Avey: Well, some of the equipment that's in the garage will go into the storage, or I can move my exercise equipment in there; disassemble it and pack it in there and not be able to use it. So if I can push the lawnmower in there -- it's a 60-inch riding lawnmower. It's not your typical small mower. I have 1.8 acres. By putting that in there -- I can put other stuff on it for the wintertime and not necessarily have to get it out. So it's just kind of a big shuffle at this point. Baringhaus: On the front of the garage itself it seemed like you didn't have conventional garage doors. It seemed one garage door that's very, very tall. What was the reason for that? Avey: Well, the reason was originally I was going to buy a diesel pusher, which is a very nice camper trailer, or camper, and I couldn't get the variance for the height I wanted so now I can't buy that. But retirement plans was to buy that or now it's going to be fifth wheel camper that I could hopefully store in there on retirement. But as of this point, I don't even think that's going to become possible right now. Baringhaus: So it was going to be used for potential storage of the camper -- Avey: It was, yes. Baringhaus: -- that required the additional height? Avey: Correct. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 33 of 68 November 27, 2018 Baringhaus: Thank you. Coppola: Any other questions? Turbiak: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: Have you considered moving some things to an offsite storage, things that you don't need? I understand exercise equipment you'd liked to have. Avey: I have considered that, and I don't think that's a viable option at this point. Turbiak: Can you expound on what you've considered and why it's not viable? Avey: Well, my experience with offsite storage is you take stuff there, you put it there, you pay every month and you forget about it. It's easier to run to the corner store and buy the Halloween decorations than to go there and dig through tubs and bring them back home and now you have excess decorations. I'm doing this for what's an indefinite period of time. Renting a storage unit for an indefinite period of time to me does not seem monetarily feasible. If it was a definite period where I could say, "It's four months," I would entertain it, but this is -- I have no idea how long this is going to last. Turbiak: In your original appeal you mentioned that there was going to be a hobby area for six-foot planes. Are you still doing that? Avey: Well, that was going on be off to the side on the original plan, but right now that's nixed also because I didn't get that part on the original variance. That was one of the design changes. Turbiak: I see. How many cars do you currently own? Avey: Currently, I have three with four more in the process of being purchased. Turbiak: For the kids, I suppose. Avey: I have a daughter that's 16 and I have triplets that are 14 and that are now taking driver's ed. Turbiak: And where do you expect they'll park the cars? Avey: Well, I have a large circular driveway out front is where they're going to have to keep them. Turbiak: So you've explained kind of the configuration that you're planning if the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 34 of 68 November 27, 2018 variance would be granted. What are your plans if it's denied? Avey: I guess my first thing would be to have a 40-foot Conex box delivered to the driveway for immediate storage, and I'll have to address the issue after that. But that's really not in my intentions. I'm trying to keep a nice place for the neighbors to look at so they're not looking at blue tarps and extra storage containers. What I propose on building is completely hidden by trees or 90 percent. Turbiak: I think that's all I have for now, Mr. Chairman. Coppola: There's a pond right behind there where you plan on putting the extension. Do I have that correct? Avey: It would be between the pond and what's there, yes. There's approximately 30 feet between the back of the garage and the pond. Coppola: Any other questions? I'll call you back up when we're ready. Is there anybody in the audience that would like to speak for or against this project? Come forward and give us your name and address. Mainella: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm John Avey's neighbor at the north of him. Coppola: And your name? Mainella: I'm sorry. My name is Filippo Mainella, 14600 Fairlane. I've been living there about 12 years. The best neighbor that I ever had. I've been living in Livonia since 1977. Honestly, ladies and gentlemen, he's one hell of a nice guy. That's all he wants to do is add a lower addition in back of that garage that he's got right now. John, I tell you what, he's got so many -- these are toys -- not toys. These are workable yard tools. If I need something, he's got it. By the way, he's a DTE linesman. If some of the power goes out, I don't have to call too far. He's my neighbor. He'd be right there in a split second. I don't have no objection on what he's trying to do. I'm just here to support what he's trying to do. Coppola: Thank you. Mainella: Thank you. Coppola: Anyone else? Munday: My name is George Munday. I live kitty-corner across from John, 14589 Fairlane. I've been a Livonia resident since '61 and I moved to where I'm at now in '96, and John is one of the best neighbors I've ever had. He's a great guy, hard worker, and what he's planning on you don't see from the street or anything. It's almost like camouflaged, so I'm just here to support him. And what Phil said about DTE, every time the power goes out I call John and he lets me know when the power is coming on, so it's nice to have him as a neighbor. Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 35 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: Thank you. Anyone else? Andrus: Carl Andrus, 14640 Fairlane. So John, Phil, then me. What John is going to put up you really aren't going to be able to see. It's the width of the 30 foot and then 12 feet back, it's really hidden. In the back of there is the cemetery and the forest and then the awning then goes around there is just an awning. It will actually make the entire area look a little more complete, so I don't have any problem. I don't imagine anybody would. It's really an enhancement, so that's it really. Coppola: Thank you. Anyone else? Do we have correspondence? Baringhaus: Yes, we do. Letter of approval from Carl Andrus, 14640 Fairlane. (Letter read.) Letter of approval, Roger and Debbie Pline, 14520 Fairlane. (Letter read.) Letter of approval, Lucy Sygit, 14618 Riverside. (Letter read.) Coppola: Anything you'd like to say in closing, Mr. Avey? Avey: Not at this point. There's nothing else I can add. Coppola: I'll close the public portion of this case and start the Board's comments with Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As you're driving down Fairlane Street, it is actually I think quite a mixture of garages in itself. You'll see a mixture of attached garages, two-car attached garages in some instances, more the exception maybe three-car garages either integrated into the home or separately detached from the main living area itself. I would like to compliment you on the design of the garage. I think it's very well done and you've obviously put a lot of thought and detail into it. Normally, I'm not a fan of large garages. I will approve garages being a little larger than what the ordinances dictate, but I think in this case with the unanticipated situation with your parents and your in-laws now having to move in with you for some assisted care, I think that justifies a hardship. I think what you're proposing -- which is basically putting, if I understand it, a 30 by 12 addition directly behind the existing structure, so really if you look at it from the curb or from Fairlane Street itself, you're really not aware of the fact that it's there. In this instance, due to the hardship, due to the way the proposed design of the building, in this case I will support the variance. Coppola: Ms. Centers. Centers: I too believe that there is a hardship here, and I acknowledge the overwhelming neighbor support and approval. Most of the excess square footage looks to me to be overhang space, so while I will support as presented, I would also be open to approving just the 30 by 12 storage area if that would assist in getting this variance because taking away the overhang area would decrease the square footage. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 36 of 68 November 27, 2018 Turbiak: I think the Petitioner has clearly stated his hardship, and I can see that he needs it. I also can appreciate the support from the neighbors and I will support. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I agree. I grew up on the other side of Hull school and my parents still live in my childhood home, so I've driven by the house a million times. I know the neighborhood really well. We've actually I think approved a fairly large garage on this street in the last year. But again, I think the hardship is there, there's overwhelming neighbor support, it's going to look good, and as Ms. Centers said, it's a lot of overhang but that's not necessarily making it look crazy or out of place. I will be in support. Coppola: Ms. Fraske. Fraske: I agree with all of my -- whatever you're called. Coppola: Board members. Fraske: Yes, thank you. Board members, my friends. I see the hardship, I love the design, I appreciate the time and effort you put into it, so I'm in support of the variance. Coppola: This is a tough one. I don't want to come off sounding heartless, but unfortunately I probably will. The Petitioner came in in 2005 looking for almost a 2,000 square foot garage at that time. And 2,000 square feet, I don't think that's any longer a garage; that's a barn. And to be honest with you, that's larger than I think the average house in Livonia, albeit it's a big lot and it definitely supports some level of a detached garage. At that point, the Board did not -- was not convinced that that size of a garage was necessary, and matter of fact was probably one of the largest garages ever requested. And now here we are today with almost a 2,500 square foot garage. Again, probably larger than 80 percent of the homes here in Livonia. The Board in 2005 was pretty adamant about not allowing something that large, and to be honest with you, I've only been on the Board for three and a half years, we've never had a request for something this large or as large as the one that was previously approved. There's a hardship here -- and this is going to come off as the heartless part -- it is not a permanent hardship, and you're asking for a permanent resolution to a temporary hardship. This is just huge, and I'm very concerned about creating precedent in the City for allowing outbuildings of this size. It just doesn't fit within the City of Livonia. I can't be in support of this. I think your garage is large enough. You can put some shelves up, you can put your decorations and stuff on your shelves. You'll have to put away some things for some time while you take care of a very unfortunate situation, and I do feel for you. That's a sad situation, but I can't support something of this magnitude. Any discussion? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 37 of 68 November 27, 2018 Baringhaus: Yeah. Maybe just a comment on some of the past cases that we've had that involved garage proposals, one of the factors we've always considered is basically the storage capability of the house. I think one of the key factors we've had to consider is whether that house had or did not have a basement and we've taken that into our consideration. I think we've been a little more generous in what we've allowed and what we haven't allowed. I think possibly what's compounding the problem was the design of the house itself as a tri-level. My experience with tri-level homes is they have either no storage or at best very limited storage as well, so I think what the Petitioner is facing here is sort of a dual scenario where he's getting impacted in two directions. I had a similar problem in my family with parents, my mother specifically, and it turned out to be about an eight- or ten-year situation. So again, I sympathize with you. I've been there myself, and I understand your need for this request. Coppola: Just want to add -- I don't want to turn to into a debate, but the Petitioner did add a significant amount of space to his house and had an opportunity at that point in time to address the storage issue. The home now is almost 3,400 square feet. It's a large house. I get what you're saying. I understand it. He's in a large house, and now you've got an extraordinarily large garage. Again, it's not a garage, I mean it's bigger than most houses in Livonia. It's basically a house. I'll open up the floor for a motion. Upon motion by Klisz and supported by Baringhaus it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-11-47: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by John Avey, 14560 Fairlane, Livonia, MI 48154, seeking to construct an addition to a nonconforming detached garage, previously granted by variance (2005-02-11). The proposed addition results in further excess garage area. Garage Area: Allowed: 720 sq. ft. Proposed: 2472 sq. ft. (1632 sq. ft. existing) Excess: 1752 sq. ft. The property is located on the east side of Fairlane (14560), between Five Mile and Lyndon, Lot. No. 082-01-0024-000, R-2 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under Ordinance 543, Section 2.10 (5), “Definition of Miscellaneous Terms; Garage, Private,” be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met because of the large size of the lot and the situation he has where he's adding onto a preexisting extended garage that was granted back in 2005. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences on the Petitioner because he would move stuff out of his house making it an eyesore for his neighbors. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 38 of 68 November 27, 2018 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and is in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance because of 100 percent complete neighbor support and the fact that it would be hidden mostly from the public due to the size of the lot and the tree cover in the area. 4. The property is classified as Low Density Residential under the Master Plan and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, that the variance be granted with the following conditions: 1. That it be built according to the size, materials and the location as presented. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Klisz, Baringhaus, Centers, Fraske, Turbiak NAYS: Coppola ABSENT: Pastor Baringhaus: Motion passes. Coppola: Your petition is passed. Avey: Thank you very much. Coppola: Good luck. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 39 of 68 November 27, 2018 APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-11-48: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Redford West, LLC, 24350 Joy Road, Ste. #4, Redford, MI 48239, seeking to maintain a six-foot-tall privacy fence, erected without a permit, without obtaining the adjoining property owners approval and placed even with the front building line, which is not allowed. Privacy fences cannot be placed beyond the mid-point between the front and back building line. The property is located on the west side of Inkster (8869), between Dover and Joy Road, Lot. No. 144-99-0171-000, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090 A,(5), “Residential District Regulations.” Coppola: Mr. Stroble, do you have anything to add? Stroble: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Any question for the Inspection Department? I do. How did this come to your attention? Stroble: I have no idea. Coppola: I know that there was a -- there's reports that are in the -- I'm just curious as to who. I couldn't see who made the report. Stroble: I can look it up real quick. Coppola: Name and address, please? Turbiak: Oh, wait. I have another question, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Sure. Turbiak: Was there a permit pulled for the air conditioning? Stroble: I'll check that too. Coppola: If you could give us your name and address, please? Woods: Sure. It's Jake Woods. The address is 8869 Inkster Road. I'm a representative for Redford West, LLC. Coppola: Thank you. So is this a rental property? Woods: No. We're selling the property. Coppola: So Redford West, LLC was basically a builder/ developer and then they're just selling it? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 40 of 68 November 27, 2018 Woods: No. Redford, LLC is an investment firm. We hired a builder to do renovation to the property. We invested about 100,000 dollars into that house. The builder intended to pull the permit. I'm not sure exactly what happened there. I know that he went to go pull the permit and then all of these issues were there, so obviously he wasn't able to. The air conditioning unit, as you mentioned, we had one that was stolen out of there. The fence was constructed as partially for security. We do put alarm systems in all of our stuff. We had an alarm system here, obviously, that doesn't help with our air conditioning unit there. Also, the commercial area on the southbound side is primarily a wooded area. We did try and reach out. I provided a log in the packet that we submitted to the Board that a log of communication, trying to get this guy out here. Eventually, he did. A representative from their company did come down. He didn't say he had any issues with the fence, but he was uncomfortable signing the authorization form for us. He intended to followup with us, but he's just been MIA ever since. Still, we continued trying to contact him. We had an attempted break-in on the house before the A/C was actually stolen that was reported to the police office as well. After that break-in we took further steps, and unknowingly -- we didn't actually know that we had to the get the neighbor's signature because it was commercial land, that wooded area, we had no idea. But outside of that, we're just looking to maintain the security of the property and ideally just get it sold at this point. Coppola: Is the whole property fenced or just a section of it? Woods: There was a preexisting fence there and this was just build against it. Coppola: So the preexisting fence that goes around the property -- Woods: I believe so. Coppola: And it's a six-foot privacy fence all the way around? Woods. Yes. And construction on the fence is -- I think there was a number that Craig went and took a look at it. I mean there's no issues with the construction of the fence. It's just obviously wasn't placed in the right place on the property. Coppola: No issue besides the permit wasn't pulled and -- Woods: Coppola: -- you didn't have your neighbor's permission and you went too far forward. Okay. Why do you believe that -- notwithstanding the fact that there was no permit and no neighbor's permission -- you need to bring the fence so far forward in front of the house? Woods: Say it again. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 41 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: Why do you believe that you need to bring the fence so forward to the front of the house? Woods: Honestly, I would have not -- had I known the code was to go to the center of the house, I think the builder made a mistake in that aspect. The security feature definitely provides it. The way that the wooded area is, you can access the back of the yard had that fence gone to the middle. I believe that's why he did it. I was not overseeing this direct property renovation, but the contractor we used is very skilled. He seldom makes mistakes. We work in Livonia all the time, hand in hand with you guys' Building Department. As far as an answer as to why I believe it should be where it is, I don't want to pay to have to take it down and put it back. I don't think that it causes any type of eyesore. The fact that it's along that wooded area that is a commercial land, also the fact that it's the main road, I think it does provide extra security for us -- or for the future homeowner rather. Coppola: And the air conditioning unit is on the north side of the house? Woods: The air conditioning unit, yeah. It would be on the northwest side of the house. Coppola: Questions? Klisz: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: So who is the builder that doesn't know how to pull a permit? Woods: I'd have to get you the company name. I know the guy is Tony. He knows how to pull a permit. Like I said, I can't speak for him as to why that wasn't done beforehand. Obviously, we would have avoided this whole situation had that happened. But his name should be on the other permits that were pulled with the house, his company name rather. Coppola: Just for clarity purposes, there was a schematic that was provided that showed the house. It looks like it's a CAD-CAM type of drawing. There's kind of a purple part that says, "Six foot existing privacy fence." Is that the fence that was added? Woods: You have to explain that to me again. Coppola: There's a -- I won't call it a survey, but a survey-like picture that shows the house on the lot with trees, and then there's a portion that was highlighted in purple, pink, whatever. Is that the fence that was added? Woods: Trying to get my bearings on this visual here. Is this Inkster Road? Fisher: Yes. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 42 of 68 November 27, 2018 Woods: Yeah. So that is the portion that was added, correct. Coppola: But there was existing all the way around? Woods: Yes. Coppola: Except for that section? Woods: Yes. I don't know if the preexisting fence had fallen down, just weathered or something of that nature, but there was a fence along the portion of the house, perimeter of the house. Centers: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Ms. Centers. Centers: Is that the fence that goes all the way around the house to the other side of the house? Woods: Yeah. You can definitely see in your picture the difference between the lumber that's new and not. Centers: Can you refresh my memory? Where does that side of the fence end along the house? Woods: There should have been photos indicated there. I don't want to misspeak. Turbiak: So just to be clear, I think Mr. Fisher showed you the picture, which the pink part only kind of came from the front lot or the front house line and then maybe almost the same amount of distance westward. Looking at this picture, I don't know if you can see it from there. Is this the back fence here? Woods: Right. Turbiak: So does it look like this is also new fence up to that point? Or is it like three different -- Woods: That photo has new fencing. The yellow wood obviously is discolored compared to the older woods in the center of your screen there. Turbiak: Do you know if it's three different fences? Because this one does definitely look newer than the one here on the north end of the property but the bottom portion of the fence is discolored. How long has this been installed? Was it treated properly? Woods: It was treated properly. -- I mean they're pretreated lumber, but three months ago, I'm not for sure. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 43 of 68 November 27, 2018 Turbiak: Seems odd, don't you think that it's -- Woods: For sure. It could be dirt from when they did the concrete. I know they replaced a walkway there, I'm not sure how they threw the dirt along the fence or not. Turbiak: Thank you. Klisz: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I believe Mr. Stroble found the information about the permitting. Stroble: So the fence -- the house was on our vacant and abandoned program since '15, so we've been monitoring it. Our ordinance officer noticed the oddity in the fence, so he's the one who generated the fence violation. But they did have permits to do all the work; the A/C and all the construction was all approved. Woods: And under no circumstances would we have tried to sneak by avoiding a permit for 100 or 200 dollars. I mean as far as the builder not pulling the permit when we pulled all of the other ones, I don't know. I can't control what he does. I assure you he was reprimanded. Turbiak: Mr. Chair. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: When the A/C unit was stolen, do you know if the freon or refrigerant leaked onto the ground? Woods: I'm assuming yes. Turbiak: Do you know if there was any action taken to remedy that, environmental action to -- Woods: If it leaked, we would have had the necessary licensed people come out and do it. I'm saying that -- I've never stolen an air conditioning unit before. I don't know if they used proper procedures to properly disconnect it. Turbiak: I also don't know -- do you know does that have to be done inside the house? Is it possible to steal it without leaking the freon all over? Woods: So I'll tell you this: When we hire guys to do jobs, they charge us for everything they can charge us for, and we were not charged for extra freon. We were just charged for the unit. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 44 of 68 November 27, 2018 Stroble: You can disconnect it if you know what you're doing from the outside. Woods: Anybody who steals an air conditioner probably knows what they're doing. Turbiak: Good point. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: What efforts have you taken to contact the owners to get authorization? Woods: You said what efforts? Baringhaus: Yes. Woods: We have reached out through phone. We obtained a personal cellphone for the representative of the company. Primarily, it's been phone contacts, but like I said, he did meet one of our other project managers down at the property. Again, he looked at the fence, had no objections with the fence, the placement. He just had an issue signing the paperwork to allow us -- something about the plat map being attached in that form was uncomfortable for him. Baringhaus: Thank you. Turbiak: Mr. Chairman, one more question. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: I notice that on the front of the house the fence is finished on both sides. Obviously, the interior is finished all the way around, but on the front it's finished on the outside as well but not on the south side. Can you discuss why that is? Woods: My guess would be the fence was preexisting. Again, I wasn't the project manager in charge of this, so either -- I know that they had obtained one neighbor's permission. I believe it was the neighbor to the west, and I believe that's the section of the fence you're talking about. Turbiak: I'm talking about the section of the fence on the south like adjacent to the commercial. Woods: So why was that not finished? Turbiak: Right. Well I mean -- like on the outside you can see the posts whereas in the front of house it's not like you're looking at the back of a fence. You know what you mean? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 45 of 68 November 27, 2018 Woods: I would have to direct you to the builder for that. My guess would be with all the wooded area there that there's no way to really see that from the outside. And it's possible that the way that you have to install a fence, they just weren't able to get on the side to drive the posts in. Just logic reasoning. Turbiak: If it is visible and if it is possible, would you consider finishing that side -- Woods: Certainly. Turbiak: -- like you did on the front? Woods: Certainly. Turbiak: Okay. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: In terms of the new fence that's placed toward the front of the house, are you -- do you know where the old fence was located? In other words, did this new fence follow the old fence placement or fence line? Woods: So I don't believe that the -- so I looked at this property when we first got it and it was in terrible shape. It's possible it weathered, somebody demo'd the fence. All I know is they entered the left side -- the south side of the house -- to steal that A/C unit, so I don't think that the south side of the fence was brought up enough to leave that trail of where it was. Baringhaus: Okay. Turbiak: Jim, it looks like in this picture that there's a little piece of cyclone fence right up against the house like a gate. Baringhaus: I saw that. Turbiak: It looks like it's right at the front house line or building line. Baringhaus: Good point. Okay, great. Thanks for pointing that out. Turbiak: Sure. Coppola: Any questions? You can step down. We'll give you a call back when we're done. Anybody in the audience who would like to speak up for or against this petition? Doesn't appear so. Any correspondence? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 46 of 68 November 27, 2018 Baringhaus: Yes. We have one letter, Charles Sanzone. 27495 Dover. Letter of approval. (Letter read.) Coppola: Mr. Woods, do you have any final statements? Woods: In closing, I would just say I appreciate any consideration put forward towards allowing us to keep that fence there. Again, we apologize for it. We're just looking to pull the permits, pay the necessary fees we got to pay, get the house sold. We did invest over 100,000 dollars in the property. It was a mess when we got it, it looks beautiful now. If you guys have some time, c'mon by, check it out. Coppola: All right. I'll close the public portion of the case and start with the Board's comments with Ms. Centers. Centers: Thank you. First of all, thank you for investing in a home that was apparently on the vacant and abandoned program since 2015. The fence to me looks better than no fence. However, we do have three issues: We have the lack of a permit, which as I move forward to support granting this variance I'd suggest a double permit fee be issued on that. And then the second issue we have is the lack of the property owner's -- adjoining property owner's approval. I think it's very important, and I'm eager to hear everyone else's ideas on how to solve that one. And then being placed in the front of the building line, again, I'm not pleased about that, however, the little piece of cyclone fence makes me feel that perhaps the builder was just following suit on the previous line and he should be reprimanded by someone other than us. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: I also appreciate the time, money and effort you put into rehabilitating this home. I do understand the need for security and I can empathize with the security issues. However, as Ms. Centers pointed out, there's several issues with this case, and I can't support it being on the front lot line with the lack of evidence for a hardship other than what the Petitioner has given, and the way that it got there was kind of as mistake, let's say. I understand that the cyclone fence was there already, but still, due diligence is in order to check the ordinance and not just assume that because the fence was there. And again, just because the fence was there doesn't mean that you can erect a new fence without a permit. So for all these reasons, I would not be in support. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I'm going to take a couple of things that my colleagues have said. I think in the end I will be in support. I was definitely going to ask for a double permit fee, that's pretty standard for our purposes of punishing those people who -- whether they're trying to get away with it or not simply don't pull the permit, and obviously, the builder can be reprimanded and maybe pass the cost along to them, that would be one. In terms of the neighboring support, we've gone past that many times. Essentially, they have asked -- they didn't sign it, they didn't file a letter with us and they haven't appear here today, so basically to me they've waived their objection as to the fence being put in City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 47 of 68 November 27, 2018 place. The more troubling one would be the moving of the fence. I think, again, the facts show along the lines of they probably did replace what was already in place, which would be different again if it came before us because a cyclone fence isn't the same as a privacy fence. But Mr. Turbiak mentioned and the Petitioner said that they would do that, would be to finish the other side of the fence. I think that that would be a good condition to finish this up to make sure that the job gets completed so it looks conforming to the rest of the fence. Based on those kind of reasonings, I would be in support Coppola: Ms. Fraske. Fraske: I agree with my colleagues as far as the permit fee. There's obviously a hardship, so I would support the variance. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: I agree with my colleagues on the double permit fee. I think there was an oversight and that can easily be corrected itself. The home was abandoned since 2015, and the Petitioners made the effort to make a substantial investment in it and upgrade it and make it a more attractive part of the neighborhood in the community itself. I guess going back to the photo, Mr. Turbiak pointed out with the site location of the cyclone fence and probably used -- the company used that as a basis for the privacy fence. While it's not technically correct, it's also not unheard of. I see a lot of examples where the fences -- even though the ordinance says, "Midpoint of the house," we know they're out there. In light of that, I'm willing to overlook that point itself and I do agree with the point that the fence project should be completed in its entirety to give the house some presentable curb appeal. Based on that, I'll support the variance. Coppola: I take a little bit different view on this. This was not a homeowner that made a mistake due to perceived lack of knowledge. These are professionals that are doing this for an investment purpose that should know better, and if it was not for one of our Inspection Department being a little observant, you probably would have gotten away with it. But they weren't, you didn't. They were, and you didn't. So three issues; let's talk about the neighbor first. It's a commercial site, it's vacant, you have said you had a conversation with them. I can't prove that, but I'll take your word for that. I don't think there would be any reason why you would misrepresent that interaction. I'd be willing to overlook that, but I think the one thing that I want to make sure is that the fence is on your property and not on their property. So in lieu of their signature, I would like to see a survey with the fence showing that it's on your property so that we're not allowing, in essence, inadvertently you to put a fence on somebody else's property. In regards to the no permit, I think the resolution that has been suggested by the Board members is fine, double permit is fine. In regards to placement, if you had wanted -- if you did the proper process, went and got a permit, it would have told you, "No, you couldn't put it there," and you would have done one of two things: Not put it there or come in front of us for a variance. If this came in front of us for a variance for that placement, I personally wouldn't have approved it. I think to the back section of that portion of the house is the appropriate placement for that fence. So from that perspective, while I City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 48 of 68 November 27, 2018 would allow -- I think our change in variance allows that, I think, to go to that spot, because that's kind of in the middle really because the back of the house is the back section of the house. There's a piece that juts out, that's considered the back of the house. I would allow it to go to that middle section. So from my perspective, I would prefer that it go back to that section. So the three things, number one, I can waive the neighbor's signature with the survey showing proper placement, double permit to take care of the lack of permit, but I would want the fence moved back to the back section of that piece of the house. That's my position, so I'll go ahead and open it up for a motion. Upon motion by Baringhaus and supported by Klisz, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-11-48: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Redford West, LLC, 24350 Joy Road, Ste. #4, Redford, MI 48239, seeking to maintain a six-foot-tall privacy fence, erected without a permit, without obtaining the adjoining property owners approval and placed even with the front building line, which is not allowed. Privacy fences cannot be placed beyond the mid-point between the front and back building line. The property is located on the west side of Inkster (8869), between Dover and Joy Road, Lot. No. 144-99-0171-000, RUF Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090 A,(5), “Residential District Regulations,” be granted for the following reasons and findings of fact: 1. The uniqueness requirement is met due to the state of the home being abandoned and renovated at this point. 2. Denial of the variance would have severe consequences for the Petitioner due to the increased cost in renovating the home. 3. The variance is fair in light of its effect on neighboring properties and is in the spirit of the Zoning Ordinance due to no objections to the neighboring properties and the upgrades to the home which has made it more attractive in the neighborhood itself. 4. The property is classified as Low Density Residential and the proposed variance is not inconsistent with that classification. FURTHER, the variance is granted with the following conditions: 1. A double permit fee be assessed for initially neglecting to pull the proper permit. 2. The condition of notifying and getting the neighbor's approval for the privacy fence be waived due to the City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 49 of 68 November 27, 2018 efforts of the Petitioner trying to contact them and receiving no response. 3. The current location of the fence be maintained at its current location at the front of the house. 4. A survey is required to confirm the property lines for installing the fence. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Baringhaus, Klisz, Centers, Fraske NAYS: Coppola, Turbiak ABSENT: Pastor Baringhaus: Four to two, variance passes. Coppola: Your variance passed based on the conditions. You understood the conditions, double permit and you got to get the survey. Woods: I've got the survey. What was the other one? Finish the south side of the fence? Will we receive a formal document with those requests? Coppola: I believe so. Fisher: You will receive a letter that tells you the conditions and so forth if that -- Woods: It will say the conditions? Fisher: Yes. Woods: Understood. Understood. Coppola: Thank you. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 50 of 68 November 27, 2018 APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-11-49: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Donna Crechiolo, 9113 Pere, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to replace a six foot tall wood privacy fence with a five foot tall vinyl privacy fence without obtaining the adjoining property owners approval. The property is located on the west side of Pere (9113), between Minton and Northfield, Lot. No. 123-03-0146-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090 (B), “Residential District Regulations.” Coppola: Mr. Stroble, anything to add? Stroble: Not at this time, Mr. Chair. Coppola: Any questions for the Inspection Department? Can the Petitioner please step forward and state your name and address? Crechiolo: Donna Crechiolo, 9113 Pere Avenue, Livonia. Coppola: Thank you. Can you tell us a little bit about your project? Crechiolo: The existing fence, which I provided pictures, is rotting, deteriorated beyond what I feel is appropriate for the neighborhood. I've been there for two years. I've been wanting to replace the fence. I've just been financially able to seek estimates and pursue this and I'm working with Lowe's. I was given the forms and told that neighbors -- adjoining neighbors would need approval. The one property owner that has not signed the form and turned it in I believe is here tonight. The property is vacant. It's a rental property, and I started pursuing with the realtors, the form to pass on to have it signed with documentation which I have provided what the fence is going to look like, what the steps are going to be in replacing that existing fence. I've received no documentation back. The second time that I asked the realtor to forward on the information, the son of the property owner told the realtor to stay out of it, that they were going to the City, so I took that as what it was. Lowe's came to the City to obtain a permit to learn that the form was not turned into the City signed, so the permit was denied. So at that point, I have a fence ready to be installed, which Lowe's had to come back and pick up all the materials and go back to the store to store, and the City told me the next step was to go before you people to obtain an exemption to the ordinance. Coppola: We did get a letter from your neighbor, adjoining neighbor. He made a request for a survey to ensure that the fence was going to be on your property. At this point, you're only planning on replacing existing fencing and putting it in the same place that the fence now exists. When you purchased your home, you didn't have to get a survey at that point in time? Crechiolo: No, I did not, and they didn't provide -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 51 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: The former owner didn't provide a copy of a survey with the fence on it? Crechiolo: No. And I don't know that the former owner was the original owner. I have neighbors here that have said that fence has been there since they have been there over 30 years. So the survey -- the property survey I guess has been lost in transition from prior owners. Coppola: Yes. It used to be mortgage companies required a survey, actually title companies required it. It appears now they don't for plotted lots, so you don't get that updated anymore. Crechiolo: I just have a legal description of the property, which I provided. I don't have the survey. Coppola: Questions? Turbiak: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: I'm looking at the quote from Lowe's, and it says that it's going to be 80 foot. I understand all of that, but it also mentions 14 feet of four-foot tall white vinyl fencing also Wellington II style and four-foot walk gate and a 12-foot drive gate. Can you describe what those are? Crechiolo: That will be where the chain link is in front of the house. I'm providing -- yep, yep. So to match the back of the fence, I'm matching vinyl in the front of the house too so the front and back fencing will match even though the front is only four foot. Turbiak: Four foot high, yeah. Crechiolo: Yeah. Just for -- Turbiak: So there's a total of -- so this -- I don't know. This is the south side of the house, I believe. Is this the four-foot gate and some of the four-foot high fence of the 14? Crechiolo: Of the 14? Turbiak: So tell me where the 14 feet of four-foot high fence. Maybe that's a better way to put it. Crechiolo: On each side of the front of the house where there is an existing chain link, the one side is -- I believe it's eight feet wide. I'm putting a gate there so I can get to the spigot that's on the other side of the fence so I can water my lawn without looping hoses over that fence and jumping around to turn it on. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 52 of 68 November 27, 2018 Turbiak: Okay. Crechiolo: So I'm adding a gate there so I'm making it vinyl. And then the driveway existing chain link fence, you know that has a gate to it across the driveway, I'm making that vinyl as well. Turbiak: So it sounds like the four -- there's eight foot on this side, so four is the gate, four of that 14 leaving 10, so then the other 10 is on either side of the drive gate roughly? Crechiolo: Yeah. Coppola: You're going to maintain the chain links on either side? Crechiolo: On the sides, uh-huh. And all -- as to the property line, all the homes have chain link fences except for that wood across the back, so I believe the property lines are kind of already defined by where the existing poles are for each property along the line. Turbiak: Did you give any consideration to putting vinyl fence on the side yard lines? Crechiolo: I didn't see it necessary, and I have landscaping so it's already kind of private. I didn't see the need for that and the chain link fence is in great shape. I have neighbors on each side that I like so didn't see a need to put it all the way around. Turbiak: So is there existing drive gate? Crechiolo: Uh-huh. Turbiak: So you're replacing that? Crechiolo: Uh-huh. Like I said, just so the front and back kind of matches and then the sides will remain chain link. Turbiak: Thank you. Coppola: Any other questions? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: Just to confirm -- I saw it on the Lowe's work order -- but all the existing -- I'll call it redwood fence for lack of a better term -- that will be removed by Lowe's and it will be 100 percent vinyl fencing around the property? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 53 of 68 November 27, 2018 Crechiolo: Yep. Baringhaus: Okay, great. Will some of that fencing abut up to the existing chain link fences? Crechiolo: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Baringhaus: Looks like that at one point from some of the photos that you supplied. Thank you. Coppola: Any other questions? Just take a seat, we'll call you back up at the end for a final statement. Anyone in the audience that would like to speak up? C. Tartaglia: My name is Cynthia Tartaglia, 32913 Brookside Circle. M. Tartaglia: Mine is Mario Tartaglia. I live at 35296 Banbury Court in Livonia. Coppola: And are you property owner? M. Tartaglia: Yes. It's on the application that you got. C. Tartaglia: So we just want to state that we're not against her installing a fence. That's not why we're here. We're just concerned that Mario has not been given any indication that the fence would be installed on her side of the property line, so all we're requesting is that a proper process is followed meaning that we have a surveyor come out and establish a property line to ensure Mario that the fence is placed on her lot and not his. We just don't want any sort of liability or risk that might come down in the future if a mistake is made and that fence is put it on his property versus hers. Coppola: There's an existing fence. Whose property line is that on? C. Tartaglia: We don't know. She doesn't have a -- Coppola: How long have you owned the property? M. Tartaglia: For five years. It's a rental. It's a rental. Coppola: You owned it for four or five years or you've been using it as a rental for four or five years? M. Tartaglia: Yeah, rental. C. Tartaglia: He's been using it as a rental for four or five years. Coppola: And how long have you owned it? M. Tartaglia: About that time. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 54 of 68 November 27, 2018 C. Tartaglia: That timeframe. Coppola: So you purchased it as a rental? M. Tartaglia: Yes. C. Tartaglia: Yes. Coppola: And you don't have an existing survey at the time you bought it? M. Tartaglia. No, no. Coppola: At that time, you weren't concerned about the placement of the fence? C. Tartaglia: Well, no, because it was already established. Because if she puts a new one in and then something happens, then my father's liable because it's on his property line if it's done in error. Coppola: So if she put it in exactly the same place it was just to replace it -- C. Tartaglia: What happens when she moves or -- Coppola: -- you'd still be concerned? C. Tartaglia: -- he moves. You know, if he sells the property or she moves, then what happens? You know? Like we just want a proper process followed, documentation established. That's why we pushed her towards coming to your -- my dad called the City of Livonia to find out what the proper channels were, which was to come here. So we just want things done the right way. We don't want Band Aids, we don't want -- M. Tartaglia: We don't want things after, you know. Coppola: The proper channels would have been to resolve it between the parties. If that was a request you had, it would have been easier if you made it sooner. The risk you have coming here is that we can go ahead and approve it without your approval and then you'd have been stuck with the fence wherever she put it. C. Tartaglia: But then at that point it's documented, so if she were to come -- like if the fence was put in error and she were to try and come and sue us for whatever reason, hypothetically speaking, now it's documented with the City of Livonia, correct? That we came here and you guys made this decision? Coppola: That wouldn't resolve an issue if it was put in the wrong place. C. Tartaglia: I believe it would help some liability on our side. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 55 of 68 November 27, 2018 M. Tartaglia: Plus she uses a contractor and he makes a mistake and puts the fence over on my side when she's paying for it, she's going to come back and say, "I paid for the fence," so I'm going to lose two or three inches of -- C. Tartaglia: Property line. M. Tartaglia: Property. It happened to a neighbor of mine where I live. They put a driveway over my lot line and then I was stuck. She says she was going to remove -- they were going to remove it and never did. C. Tartaglia: Then they sold the property and moved. So my dad has been burned by a similar situation, so this is why we're here. And yeah, we're willing to take the risk in dealing with whatever decision you guys make. However, we feel in good faith by coming here and stating our case -- literally all we're requesting is that a surveyor come out, establish the lot line, the fence is placed in the proper location, it's documented and it's done. So I guess I don't understand why she can't follow a licensed surveyor coming out to verify that no encroachment is being created by the installment of her new fence regardless of what exists there currently. M. Tartaglia: Did the Board receive a letter from my lawyer over here like this? I'm sure you did because we sent it. Klisz: Yes. C. Tartaglia: And the reason that we didn't respond right away because -- M. Tartaglia: Because we had to hire a lawyer. C. Tartaglia: -- my father wanted to hire a lawyer and also contact the City of Livonia to find out what the proper channels were. So we just wanted to follow the rules. That was it. It wasn't like -- we're not trying to fight her on putting this fence in, it's great that she wants to do that. We're just trying to do things the right and proper way. Don't want any risk -- M. Tartaglia: She didn't have no business going over my son house from the beginning. He doesn't have nothing to do. C. Tartaglia: She went over to my brother's house, kept harassing our real estate agent when open houses were being conducted. So like I said, we just want to do the proper channels and come here and just have everything dealt fairly, documented, process followed. That's really it. Coppola: Any questions? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 56 of 68 November 27, 2018 Baringhaus: I believe the owner and the neighbors have estimated that fence has been in place for 20, 30 years Audience: Forty years. Baringhaus: Forty years, okay. It's been in place for 40 years so -- M. Tartaglia: We don't -- C. Tartaglia: It's been there -- Coppola: You'll get a chance. Audience: (Indistinct comments.) Baringhaus: I'm sorry. I have the floor. M. Tartaglia: Sorry. Baringhaus: It's been in place for 40 years according to the neighbors, so in that 40 years -- going through the case and hearing comments, I don't believe there's been a problem with that fence, so why would there be a problem with that fence today? C. Tartaglia: So how do we ensure that when Lowe's comes and installs this fence that (A) they're going to put it in the same exact spot, and secondly it if was placed in error the first time, why should we let two wrongs make a right and let it be -- Baringhaus: Why do you suspect that the fence was placed in error originally 40 years ago? I guess I'm not following. C. Tartaglia: So there's no docu -- so what I'm trying to say is there's no documentation, right, of where that fence is and whether it's truly on her lot line or ours, right? Secondly, we're taking advantage of a new fence being put in to make that it is in the correct place, hence the surveyor coming out to make sure that there's no encroachment. Baringhaus: Are you willing to pay for the cost of the survey? M. Tartaglia: No, because it's not my -- I didn't request a fence. That fence that's there now, it's in a good condition as far as I'm concerned. Baringhaus: Who owns the fence? M. Tartaglia: Huh? I don't know. Baringhaus: The owner of the fence -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 57 of 68 November 27, 2018 M. Tartaglia: I don't know who owns the fence. Baringhaus: -- is replacing that fence, and it's being replaced in a procedure that's very typical for replacing a fence in the City. M. Tartaglia: Why make a mistake the second time? Baringhaus: I'm back to my original question. The fence has been in place for 40 years, no problems have been documented. M. Tartaglia: Okay. If you take a -- Baringhaus: Why is there suddenly a problem with that fence today? M. Tartaglia: Let me ask you a question. If you make a mistake the first time, would you make a mistake the second time too? Baringhaus: If the fence follows the existing -- M. Tartaglia: Forget the fence. Would you make a mistake the second time? Baringhaus: I'm not forgetting the fence. In the normal course of business, if that fence follows the existing fence line, unless it's drastically off, I'm sure it's going to be fine. M. Tartaglia: You don't know that. Baringhaus: Neither do you. Thank you. C. Tartaglia: That's what I'm saying. We just want to make sure we go through the proper channels and have it documented because if something were to come five years from now and my father is going to sell the property or she's going to sell the property and this becomes an issue, then we're going to be kicking ourselves, right? M. Tartaglia: Yeah, yeah. C. Tartaglia: So we just -- like I said, we just want to document it and we just want to a proper channel followed. I know it seems like a fence, it seems like something very -- like not -- it's not a big deal, however, it could turn into one. Coppola: Ms. Fraske. C. Tartaglia: That's why we're here. That's why you guys are on this Board, right? Fraske: I have a question. Coppola: Ms. Fraske. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 58 of 68 November 27, 2018 Fraske: So if this was a concern of yours, and it seems like it has been for quite a few years that you were nervous about the placement of the fence and you've had a problem with this before, why didn't you have a survey done when you purchased the home? Because that's an option. You could have done that, so why didn't you have a survey done then? M. Tartaglia: We didn't think about it at that time. Fraske: Well, you can -- if you want to have it done -- M. Tartaglia: Well, you know -- Fraske: If you want to have it done -- M. Tartaglia: If you're going to be that sarcastic here -- C. Tartaglia: Dad. Fraske: I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just asking a question. M. Tartaglia: I've been dealing in Livonia here for 30, 40 years. I live in Livonia and no problem. C. Tartaglia: We just like to follow the rules and -- Fraske: Okay. C. Tartaglia: That's it. Fraske: Thank you. C. Tartaglia: I mean I hope you wouldn't fault us for just wanting to follow the rules and go through the proper channels. Hence, my dad called the City of Livonia, they said that we needed to come here and she needed to come here. We had the option to write to approve or object. We're choosing to object and we're stating why. So that's it, right? Or else you guys wouldn't give us the opportunity to object, right? That wouldn't be an option on the form, so we're objecting. We're stating to you why, and that's it. Coppola: Thank you. M. Tartaglia: I didn't have to go to the lawyer to draft this to let you guys see what our objection is. C. Tartaglia: And In seriousness -- City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 59 of 68 November 27, 2018 M. Tartaglia: I spent money on the lawyer. Turbiak: Are you willing to tell us how much you spent? Coppola: Probably a lot more than you would have spent on the survey. Fisher: Mr. Chair, if I may just say this: In the actual fence ordinance, it says, “When you apply for a permit to build a fence, one component you're supposed to provide is either a written agreement between the adjoining property owner(s) as to the lot line or alternatively the production of a survey which shall be attached to the application and which shall show the property line." So they're not wrong, they're not crazy. They're within reason within the ordinance itself actually. Coppola: But that's an alternative, right, to getting a signature from the neighbor? Fisher: Yes. Absolutely. Coppola: So she could have produced a survey and she wouldn't need their signature. Is that what that says? Fisher: Well, yeah. All you have to have is either the agreement or the survey as an alternative. C. Tartaglia: And let me just speak real quick if it's okay. If she would have provided the survey, we wouldn't be here. Crechiolo: If I would have -- Coppola: No, you need to wait. Thank you. Thank you. C. Tartaglia: Thank you. Coppola: Anybody else like to speak up? Please give us your name and address. Opalach: Name is Arthur Opalach. I live at 9100 Adams. We've been living there for 40 years. That fence was there when we bought the house. The gentleman on the corner of Adams, Pere and Northfield doesn't know who put that fence in, and he was an original owner there. It's a redwood basket weave fence. I've replaced four or five of the posts already that have rotted out, two sections are rotted out. The fence is ready to roll over. Now, I do know that on my corner that fence is probably going further into her property off the property line because we have a sewer culvert back there. There's a manhole where the east/west fence is and the north/south fences come together. We have a manhole in our backyard. So that fence sort of skirts that manhole, so it's going to come down and cut in a little bit. Like I say, nobody knows, and that fence is ready to go over at anytime now. A good wind and the fence will go over. There's one section of it wired to an existing cyclone fence because that section -- that post is busted off. Who City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 60 of 68 November 27, 2018 knows what they did when they put that house up 40 plus -- or that fence up 40 plus years ago. It's just an ugly basket weave fence. Coppola: Thank you. Anybody else like to speak up? Seeing none, do we have any correspondence? Baringhaus: Yes. Letter of approval, Margaret Allshouse, 9194 Adams. (Letter read.) Letter of approval Karen Ann Fabrizio, 38876 Northfield. (Letter read.) Letter of approval, Linda Fischer, 9179 Marie Street. (Letter read.) Letter of objection from yourself. Coppola: You don't need to read that. Baringhaus: Yeah, we don't need to read that. Coppola: You've already spoken, so we're not going to read that into the record. It'll be taken in and noted. Baringhaus: Then we also have the attorney letter as well which we've all been provided copies of. Would you like that read into the record or are we good there? Coppola: I don't think that's -- does an attorney letter get read into the record? It's not a -- Fisher: We have it in any event. Coppola: Okay. Thank you. Crechiolo: I have another letter of approval from another neighbor. He dropped it off at my house. He has health issues. Baringhaus: Thank you very much. Another letter of approval from Mark Jordan, 9054 Adams. Coppola: Thank you. Ms. Crechiolo, you have an opportunity to make a final statement Crechiolo: I'd just like to say that -- Coppola: Come up here so we can get you on the recording. Crechiolo: I'd just like to say that if Mr. Tartaglia would have communicated with me his concerns, I would have definitely had a survey done and we wouldn't have been here today and my fence would probably be up today. But because of the noncommunication, it's forced us here today, it's cost me 150 dollars, and I think at the end of this, whatever is decided for me to replace the fence I'm going to do. So that's my whole concern all along. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 61 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: I know it's an additional cost. Do you have an objection to just going and getting a survey? Crechiolo: I would have. Coppola: Well, I'm talking about now. Do you have an objection to going and getting a survey? Crechiolo: No. If it's going to get the fence replaced, I don't have a problem with that. Coppola: Okay. Crechiolo: I just wish I would have had a survey -- if they would have communicated to me, I wouldn't have had to pay the 150 dollars. We could have noted it on the form, I could have had a survey, turned it in, and the fence would be done by now is all I have to say. M. Tartaglia: Can I say something? Coppola: No. You're done. I'm sorry. Anything else you'd like to add? Crechiolo: I take offense to the statement that I was harassing their son. I dropped a letter off in his mailbox because I didn't know the state of Mr. Tartaglia, if he was old, if there was issues there with cognition, so I was trying to cover my bases to get the form signed to get this in the works and his son was communicating with the realtor. Coppola: Thank you. I'm going to close the public portion of the case and open the Board's comments with Mr. Turbiak. Turbiak: Actually, I have a question. I don't know if it would have been the right time to do it before you closed it, but how much is a survey these days? Coppola: Three or 400 hundred bucks. Fraske: I was going to say about 400. Coppola: But they would only have to survey that back line, so maybe it would be a little cheaper. Fraske: If it goes through the company, Lowe's, they probably -- they might be a little bit less. Turbiak: This one -- this is a very interesting one. I'm probably going to share some new thoughts here and then I'd like to hear what the rest of the Board has to say. Something in my mind is -- obviously, this is kind of an unfortunate situation, the way it's turned out. I think between the application for this meeting and what I presume was spent on the fees to write the lawyer's letter, I think they could have just pooled that City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 62 of 68 November 27, 2018 money together and got the survey together. Mr. Tartaglia could have benefitted or his renters could have benefitted from the nice fence and Ms. Crechiolo also would have been satisfied. So the request is for the Petitioner to not have to get the neighbor's permission. I don't know how I feel about this. I almost would propose tabling it and then let them see if they can work it out. If not, come back. Coppola: Mr. Klisz. Klisz: I think it's pretty simple. Essentially, the Petitioner is willing to pay for the survey. The survey would substitute for the neighbor's permission, and of course it sounds like the neighbor would give permission if there was a survey. So while I agree that the money probably would have been better spent communicating and working it out, unfortunately that ship sailed and the money has been spent and needs to be spent. The Petitioner is going to get that done and then -- again, that's basically it. I'll be in support. Coppola: Ms. Fraske. Fraske: I'm in support as long as the survey is done. Everybody seems to be happy. Support. Coppola: Mr. Baringhaus. Baringhaus: I think it's unfortunate that the communication that went on with the Tartaglias and not being as candid as they could with the Petitioner itself. I agree, I think it's pretty clearcut as long as the survey is provided and it's met the requirement. I will support the variance. Coppola: Ms. Centers. Centers: I too agree that it's an unfortunate situation, but I appreciate that the Petitioner is willing to go ahead and move forward with the survey and then that will set more ships to sail and everyone should be happy. Coppola: I have to say I'm pretty irritated in the fact that we've wasted this Board's time and the City's resources on something that could have been easily resolved if the neighbor had been forthcoming in the requirement of what they wanted. There's documentation of multiple attempts to make communication. If you had put your requirement forward a lot earlier, this could have been done and the fence would be up. The fence would be a benefit to you because it would help you rent your property because the backyard would look better. Completely and totally irritated that we wasted our time on this. I'm going to suggest what we do is we table this. I would suggest the Petitioner go ahead and get your survey, I would suggest that you attach -- if I'm understanding what Mr. Fisher said -- you staple that survey to the back of your permit and I think you're done. You don't have to interact with the neighbor at that point; it would be considered to be approved. So that would be my recommendation. Go ahead and table this, give the Petitioner an opportunity to get their survey and then submit their City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 63 of 68 November 27, 2018 petition -- I mean their permit for the fence. Do I understand that right, Mr. Fisher? Is that all you have to have? Fisher: You're supposed to provide either an agreement as to the location or the survey itself. Coppola: And then we can -- if that gets done, then we can pull this petition and consider it to be satisfied. Any discussion? Baringhaus: I agree with your comments wholeheartedly. I think your point is right on. I think the communication to the Petitioner could have been vastly better from the neighbor. It wasn't. I think they took a simple procedure, which is just signing the agreement to put the fence in place, was unnecessarily complicated and I commend you for making those comments. Coppola: Any other discussion? Seeing none, I will open up the floor for a motion. Upon motion by Baringhaus and supported by Turbiak, it was: RESOLVED: APPEAL CASE NO. 2018-11-49: An appeal has been made to the Zoning Board of Appeals by Donna Crechiolo, 9113 Pere, Livonia, MI 48150, seeking to replace a six foot tall wood privacy fence with a five foot tall vinyl privacy fence without obtaining the adjoining property owners approval. The property is located on the west side of Pere (9113), between Minton and Northfield, Lot. No. 123-03-0146-000, R-1 Zoning District. Rejected by the Inspection Department under City of Livonia Fence Ordinance, Section 15.44.090 (B), “Residential District Regulations,” be tabled to give the Petitioner time to complete a survey for the fence and present it to the Building Inspection Department. ROLL CALL VOTE: AYES: Baringhaus, Turbiak, Coppola, Centers, Fraske, Klisz NAYS: None ABSENT: Pastor Baringhaus: Motion tabled. Coppola: I'm going to chop up your name one last time. I apologize. Crechiolo, what you need to do is go get your survey, you can attach the survey to the back of your permit, my understanding is then that you'll get your permit and you can get your fence put in. Crechiolo: Is there a time limit on the permit? Because the work cannot be done this year. Coppola: Pardon? City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 64 of 68 November 27, 2018 Crechiolo: I don't believe the work can be done this -- Coppola: Yeah, probably not. Crechiolo: -- year with the weather, so now I have to wait till spring. So is there an expiration on the permit? Coppola: What we'll do is we'll table this and we'll give you six months. Stroble: It's a six-month permit. We can extend if the Board requests it. Coppola: We'll table this for six months, you'll have to come back before then if you don't get -- if you aren't available to get your survey and get it resolved. Crechiolo: I will get the survey done. Coppola: But I would assume if you get your survey and if it shows the fence is on -- it's got an issue on the property, then you can get that resolved. Crechiolo: Okay. Do I tag anybody in the City to get a recommendation of someone to do the survey? Stroble: We have a list of surveyors at our office if you want to call in the morning. Crechiolo: Thank you. Coppola: Thank you. I believe the only other open business is next year's schedule, meeting schedule. There has been some changes and she didn't know the changes, but we had some changes so that we could get as many of our meetings done in the auditorium as possible. Couple of comments that I have, two things. What I would like to do -- there's nothing right now that's scheduled for the first meeting in January. I would like to use that as an opportunity for a training session. A lot of new members since we've had our last training session, and I think it would be helpful to do that. So Mr. Fisher, if that date works for you, would you be willing to give us a refresher? Fisher. Sure. Coppola: A refresher for some and a training for some of the new people? Fisher: Okay. Coppola: And then the other comment is -- M. Tartaglia: Can I -- can I interrupt? I'm sorry if I got hot in here. But people -- they didn't have no right to call me a grumpy old man. Coppola: That was your neighbor. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 65 of 68 November 27, 2018 Baringhaus: That was your neighbor. Coppola: Apology accepted. M. Tartaglia: I'm sorry. Baringhaus: That's fine. Thank you very much. C. Tartaglia: We didn't mean to waste time. We take your comments very seriously. We just wanted to follow the rules so we apologize to waste your time. M. Tartaglia: I had to hire my lawyer to do this. I don't do nothing without my lawyer, so that's why it took a little bit. Coppola: Just my nickel comment here is that you could have saved yourself a lot of money by just saying, "Go get a survey," and you could have saved all the money from the lawyer and probably would have had this thing resolved. If she didn't want to get a survey -- if you had come to me and said, "I asked her for a survey and she said, No,'" I would have rejected her petition. I would have suggested rejecting the petition and had her go back and get a survey. So it's just unfortunate it got to where -- Mr. Tartaglia: Misunderstanding and I apologize. C. Tartaglia: Lessons learned. We appreciate your time. Coppola: Once it goes up, I think you will like that fence a lot better. M. Tartaglia: We didn't -- I didn't object to the fence. C. Tartaglia: Yeah, we weren't objecting to the fence. I think that point was missed. We were wholeheartedly willing to give an approval on the fence. It was just the caveat, but we apologize. Thank you very much. Coppola: Then the other issue or point I wanted to bring up is although I think this year was unique that we actually had two meetings in November, we generally don't have two meetings in November. So what I would suggest we do for the November meeting -- and I'm not sure how you show that -- it's kind of an if needed. In other words, if we end up with a bunch of petitions, that makes sense. If we only have one or two, we -- we only open it if it's needed. Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman, I think what we've done is we've left the date on the calendar, but if there are no cases then we just cancel the meeting. I think we did that once this year. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 66 of 68 November 27, 2018 Centers: We did have a canceled meeting. Baringhaus: So keep it as a placeholder, but I understand what you're saying. Because if you look at past years in November like the second meeting the last two years we had one case, tonight we had five, so it's really anybody's guess what we could have. Coppola: I think that's the -- is that the week of Thanksgiving too? Fisher: Yeah. Coppola: That's the other issue. Baringhaus: Exactly. Coppola: And the problem is is if we schedule it, they'll use it in a sense so -- Centers: Could we have it in like a holding pattern just so that we have auditorium if we want it and we won't be moved to the gallery? Coppola: I don't know how -- I don't know how you do that. Fisher: I think we can do that. Coppola: We can put it as a tentative or something like that? Fisher: Yes. Baringhaus: There you go. Just to keep it in so at least we're locked in at the very least if we need it. Coppola: But again, I think just a lot of people will be either be out of town or we'll have a problem getting resources such as court reporter that are going to be busy, so it might make sense to -- Baringhaus: Yeah, I agree. Coppola: That's my comments. Any other comments? Centers: Support. Sorry. Baringhaus: She just wants to go home. Coppola: Do I have a motion to approve the agenda for 2019? Turbiak: So moved. City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 67 of 68 November 27, 2018 Coppola: I have a motion by Mr. Turbiak, do I have support? I do have support already by Ms. Centers. It was pre-support but I have support. So I have a motion by Mr. Turbiak, supported by Ms. Centers to approve the meeting schedule for 2019 as presented with the changes discussed. All in favor? Board: Aye. Coppola: All right. It's approved. I don't hear any nays. Do I have a motion to adjourn? Baringhaus: Mr. Chairman, motion to adjourn the meeting. Coppola: I support that one. All in favor? Board: Aye. There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned at 9:40 p.m. ______________________________ Greg G. Coppola, Chairman ______________________________ James M. Baringhaus, Secretary /jms City of Livonia, Zoning Board of Appeals Page 68 of 68 November 27, 2018